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While he is usually known as John Balliol, some historians consider this unfair, implying that he was a usurper. More to the point, John of Scotland is in accordance with wikipedia conventions on naming of monarchs. PatGallacher 2005 July 9 10:27 (UTC)
Toom Tabard "empty garment" although usually described as meaning a "puppet", may refer to the fact that during King John's humiliation by King Edward, his tabard, or surcoat, would have been stripped of insignia, therefore being literally an "empty garment".
John did not 'finally stand up for himself' in the alliance with France. The direction of affairs was taken from his hands in July 1295 by a council of twelve-made up equally of earls, barrons and churchmen. It was this council that went on to conclude what was to become known as the Auld alliance. Rcpaterson 08:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Some more minor edits. John was not known as Toom Tabard during his reign. It comes from the ceremony at Brechin where the royal arms were torn from his coat. It literally means 'empty coat', but has over time acquired layers of additional meaning-'vacant' and 'ineffectual' are probably closer to the point than 'puppet'. Rcpaterson 02:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I was always led to believe that John Baliol was born at Buittle see [1] Brendandh 12:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
This portion seems unencyclopaedic. I suggest it be deleted. 50n0m4 01:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
According to the article he is his own father! -- 81.158.232.65 ( talk) 16:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The current title is an awkward halfway house. Strict interpretation of WP:NCROY would give us "John of Scotland", but his common name is "John Balliol". What do people think? PatGallacher ( talk) 02:32, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. There's not a complete consensus, but the reasons for opposing the move boil down to, "I don't accept cognomens for British Isles monarchs.", and "I like the current title", which aren't really arguments. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
John Balliol, King of Scotland →
John Balliol — This article has been shunted around between a number of different titles, but I think the default option is just to go for his common name, "John Balliol", which already redirects here. The current title is an awkard compromise between this common name and an attempt to apply the naming convention. He is definitely the primary meaning over his father, the only other John Balliol with an article on Wikipedia, who should remain a hatnote. Relisted.
Jafeluv (
talk) 15:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
PatGallacher (
talk)
21:29, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
If he is not the primary meaning then we need to re-examine where "John Balliol" should direct to. Should it be a dab with only 2 entries, generally not good practice, see WP:TWODABS? Or should we treat his father as primary? I would have thought that monarchs would normally trump non-monarchs, founding a college is hardly on par with ruling a country. He was only de facto ruler for 4 years (although his supporters would argue he was de jure king for longer) but he is a better known and more significant figure than this short reign might suggest. He was an important figure in the events leading up to the Wars of Independence fought by William Wallace and Robert the Bruce (see the article for a complete explanation) and is mentioned briefly in Braveheart (although the film gets its history badly mangled at this point, one character asks Wallace whether he will support the Balliol claim, in reality Wallace did describe himself as Governor of Scotland in the name of John Balliol, King of Scotland). PatGallacher ( talk) 12:34, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
The section entitled "Accession as King of Scotland" contains a couple of rather gnomic statements:
he was a great-great-great-grandson of King David I through his mother (and therefore one generation further than his main rival Robert Bruce...)
What does "one generation further" mean in the above?
Regarding the council of twelve: These men were more likely a group of advisors to King John...
More likely than what?
These could do with clarification (or possibly deletion). Tonywalton Talk 22:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
" John abdicated at Stracathro near Montrose on 10 July 1296. Here the arms of Scotland were formally torn from John's surcoat..." Torn off by whom? It's important to know - not least because it throws light upon whether it was actually abdication - that this ritual humiliation was carried out, not by disgruntled Scots but by his puppetmaster, England's king, Edward, who was related to John Balliol by marriage. 31.55.111.222 ( talk) 09:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
The article names two different translations of this epithet without acknowledging (except by footnote) that various interpretations exist. It seems to me that both mentions should be the same and that the first one should carry the footnote. Am I right? Ed8r ( talk) 17:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I note that the Infobox mention of Picardy is unreferenced. And then there is this:
-- Mais oui! ( talk) 05:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Right now, John is said to be dead "around 25 November 1314" (or on that exact day according to the lede), with a reference to John of Fordun. However, I am unable to find confirmation in recent books. According to the ODNB, "His death occurred shortly before 4 January 1315". Unless someone can find a reference, I'll edit the article to reflect that. – Swa cwæð Ælfgar ( talk) 16:46, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
The article lists as one of his potential children Agnes (or Maud or Anne) Balliol, but the article for her husband says that she is the daughter of John I de Balliol (his article says so too), making her King John Balliol's sister, not his daughter. Are there conflicting sources about whether she is his daughter or sister? Emperor001 ( talk) 17:37, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
What is going on with Wikipedia and coats of arms? As I have mentioned elsewhere the Strathearn arms have their tinctures the wrong way round and here, at the very least the illustration does not match the description below it. I have yet to work out whether I can alter .png files, but surely whoever drew it in the first palve should fix it? Freuchie ( talk) 09:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello. I feel that perhaps the lead image could be improved upon by using a fourteenth century portrayal which could have been drawn by a contemporary, seeing as Balliol died in 1314. Alternatively, we could use an image of any of the pennies minted during his reign or his seal. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 20:41, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 17, 2011, November 17, 2014, November 17, 2016, and November 17, 2023. |
While he is usually known as John Balliol, some historians consider this unfair, implying that he was a usurper. More to the point, John of Scotland is in accordance with wikipedia conventions on naming of monarchs. PatGallacher 2005 July 9 10:27 (UTC)
Toom Tabard "empty garment" although usually described as meaning a "puppet", may refer to the fact that during King John's humiliation by King Edward, his tabard, or surcoat, would have been stripped of insignia, therefore being literally an "empty garment".
John did not 'finally stand up for himself' in the alliance with France. The direction of affairs was taken from his hands in July 1295 by a council of twelve-made up equally of earls, barrons and churchmen. It was this council that went on to conclude what was to become known as the Auld alliance. Rcpaterson 08:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Some more minor edits. John was not known as Toom Tabard during his reign. It comes from the ceremony at Brechin where the royal arms were torn from his coat. It literally means 'empty coat', but has over time acquired layers of additional meaning-'vacant' and 'ineffectual' are probably closer to the point than 'puppet'. Rcpaterson 02:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I was always led to believe that John Baliol was born at Buittle see [1] Brendandh 12:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
This portion seems unencyclopaedic. I suggest it be deleted. 50n0m4 01:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
According to the article he is his own father! -- 81.158.232.65 ( talk) 16:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The current title is an awkward halfway house. Strict interpretation of WP:NCROY would give us "John of Scotland", but his common name is "John Balliol". What do people think? PatGallacher ( talk) 02:32, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. There's not a complete consensus, but the reasons for opposing the move boil down to, "I don't accept cognomens for British Isles monarchs.", and "I like the current title", which aren't really arguments. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
John Balliol, King of Scotland →
John Balliol — This article has been shunted around between a number of different titles, but I think the default option is just to go for his common name, "John Balliol", which already redirects here. The current title is an awkard compromise between this common name and an attempt to apply the naming convention. He is definitely the primary meaning over his father, the only other John Balliol with an article on Wikipedia, who should remain a hatnote. Relisted.
Jafeluv (
talk) 15:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
PatGallacher (
talk)
21:29, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
If he is not the primary meaning then we need to re-examine where "John Balliol" should direct to. Should it be a dab with only 2 entries, generally not good practice, see WP:TWODABS? Or should we treat his father as primary? I would have thought that monarchs would normally trump non-monarchs, founding a college is hardly on par with ruling a country. He was only de facto ruler for 4 years (although his supporters would argue he was de jure king for longer) but he is a better known and more significant figure than this short reign might suggest. He was an important figure in the events leading up to the Wars of Independence fought by William Wallace and Robert the Bruce (see the article for a complete explanation) and is mentioned briefly in Braveheart (although the film gets its history badly mangled at this point, one character asks Wallace whether he will support the Balliol claim, in reality Wallace did describe himself as Governor of Scotland in the name of John Balliol, King of Scotland). PatGallacher ( talk) 12:34, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
The section entitled "Accession as King of Scotland" contains a couple of rather gnomic statements:
he was a great-great-great-grandson of King David I through his mother (and therefore one generation further than his main rival Robert Bruce...)
What does "one generation further" mean in the above?
Regarding the council of twelve: These men were more likely a group of advisors to King John...
More likely than what?
These could do with clarification (or possibly deletion). Tonywalton Talk 22:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
" John abdicated at Stracathro near Montrose on 10 July 1296. Here the arms of Scotland were formally torn from John's surcoat..." Torn off by whom? It's important to know - not least because it throws light upon whether it was actually abdication - that this ritual humiliation was carried out, not by disgruntled Scots but by his puppetmaster, England's king, Edward, who was related to John Balliol by marriage. 31.55.111.222 ( talk) 09:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
The article names two different translations of this epithet without acknowledging (except by footnote) that various interpretations exist. It seems to me that both mentions should be the same and that the first one should carry the footnote. Am I right? Ed8r ( talk) 17:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I note that the Infobox mention of Picardy is unreferenced. And then there is this:
-- Mais oui! ( talk) 05:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Right now, John is said to be dead "around 25 November 1314" (or on that exact day according to the lede), with a reference to John of Fordun. However, I am unable to find confirmation in recent books. According to the ODNB, "His death occurred shortly before 4 January 1315". Unless someone can find a reference, I'll edit the article to reflect that. – Swa cwæð Ælfgar ( talk) 16:46, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
The article lists as one of his potential children Agnes (or Maud or Anne) Balliol, but the article for her husband says that she is the daughter of John I de Balliol (his article says so too), making her King John Balliol's sister, not his daughter. Are there conflicting sources about whether she is his daughter or sister? Emperor001 ( talk) 17:37, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
What is going on with Wikipedia and coats of arms? As I have mentioned elsewhere the Strathearn arms have their tinctures the wrong way round and here, at the very least the illustration does not match the description below it. I have yet to work out whether I can alter .png files, but surely whoever drew it in the first palve should fix it? Freuchie ( talk) 09:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello. I feel that perhaps the lead image could be improved upon by using a fourteenth century portrayal which could have been drawn by a contemporary, seeing as Balliol died in 1314. Alternatively, we could use an image of any of the pennies minted during his reign or his seal. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 20:41, 12 February 2022 (UTC)