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The qualifier seems rather clunky to me. I'm not sure whether it is a correct use of the naming conventions. I would have thought that "John Waters (born 1893)" would be the more appropriate title for the article. I looking for other editors thoughts before attempting any page move. I did receive some here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography#Possible_page_move. Thanks ahead of time for your input. MarnetteD | Talk 22:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Based on the lead, the obvious disambiguator is "filmmaker", however John Waters (filmmaker) is, remarkably, already used. So, I suggest, John Waters (early filmmaker). -- B2 C 22:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
We should try to avoid year of birth if possible. How about John Waters (early film director)? -- B2 C 05:21, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Assuming the objection to "filmmaker" is sound and the lead is updated accordingly, the reason the disambiguator early film director is preferable to adding the middle initial is because the disambiguator more clearly distinguishes this use from the other uses of "John Waters", most notably John Waters (director). -- B2 C 17:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
One thing that I was going to mention is that we should link filmmaker in the lede but Gothicfilm has removed the need to do that with his edit - which looks good BTW. Gefore the ce I did not understand this theory that if we didn't use the term filmmaker in the qualifier that we had to remove it from the lede. There is certainly no policy or guideline that states that has to be done. Also by that line of reasoning it could be argued that we would have had to remove "director" or "1893" from the lede since we weren't using them. One thing that is missing from this page is a hatnote to the DAB page. As G points out John Waters (director) goes to the DAB page and not to the creator of Smellovision :-) As to anyone searching for persons named John Waters they will be taken to the DAB page where we can use the sentence about the subject to direct them to this page. As can be seen here Lovejoy (disambiguation) and here John Smith, among thousand of others, most DAB pages use middle names or initials and try to keep the qualifiers to a minimum. My last objection is that "early" director is almost as clunky as the current one - for instance we would not use "late" or "recent" director. However that is just me. If the two of you are okay with it than please proceed. Then the sticky problem becomes moving Baltimore's own John waters away from "filmmaker" as its qualifier :-) MarnetteD | Talk 02:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I'll revert to my first response - "early film" implies the silent days. It should be avoided here. I believe my first move at WP was at Don Taylor - that's the DAB page. Two directors had that name. I moved one because of the drop down. I was able to solve it with no controversy because the better known Don Taylor was also an actor, but the previous title made it sound like he was only an actor. Using the drop down search Don Taylor (director) took you to the lesser-known one with no alternative. I moved the other to Don Taylor (actor/director). It's true readers can probably figure out who they want at the DAB page, but I believe they should have a good shot of determining it from the WP search box drop down as well. That's partly why initials aren't good. There's not going to be a perfect non-verbose solution here. Using my Taylor model, I propose we move our guy here to John Waters (director) and the better known one from Baltimore to John Waters (writer/director), and put a hatnote on both, as with Taylor. That's probably the least verbose, most accurate way to solve this. John Waters (director) would be the lesser-known, but people would immediately see the higher-placed John Waters (writer/director) in the drop down. - Gothicfilm ( talk) 08:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I therefore propose moving per WP:NCPDAB as follows:
in order to achieve sufficient (and simple) disambiguation. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 14:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I know WP:NCPDAB prefers John Waters (director born 1893), but what's wrong with a simple John Waters (1893–1965)? "Born 1893" seems to imply to me that, remarkably, he's still alive. For the deceased, year and death dates seem more reasonable. See Katarzyna Ostrogska for example. Would it really be better if those articles were titled "(noble woman born ...)"? Gabbe ( talk) 08:19, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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The qualifier seems rather clunky to me. I'm not sure whether it is a correct use of the naming conventions. I would have thought that "John Waters (born 1893)" would be the more appropriate title for the article. I looking for other editors thoughts before attempting any page move. I did receive some here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography#Possible_page_move. Thanks ahead of time for your input. MarnetteD | Talk 22:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Based on the lead, the obvious disambiguator is "filmmaker", however John Waters (filmmaker) is, remarkably, already used. So, I suggest, John Waters (early filmmaker). -- B2 C 22:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
We should try to avoid year of birth if possible. How about John Waters (early film director)? -- B2 C 05:21, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Assuming the objection to "filmmaker" is sound and the lead is updated accordingly, the reason the disambiguator early film director is preferable to adding the middle initial is because the disambiguator more clearly distinguishes this use from the other uses of "John Waters", most notably John Waters (director). -- B2 C 17:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
One thing that I was going to mention is that we should link filmmaker in the lede but Gothicfilm has removed the need to do that with his edit - which looks good BTW. Gefore the ce I did not understand this theory that if we didn't use the term filmmaker in the qualifier that we had to remove it from the lede. There is certainly no policy or guideline that states that has to be done. Also by that line of reasoning it could be argued that we would have had to remove "director" or "1893" from the lede since we weren't using them. One thing that is missing from this page is a hatnote to the DAB page. As G points out John Waters (director) goes to the DAB page and not to the creator of Smellovision :-) As to anyone searching for persons named John Waters they will be taken to the DAB page where we can use the sentence about the subject to direct them to this page. As can be seen here Lovejoy (disambiguation) and here John Smith, among thousand of others, most DAB pages use middle names or initials and try to keep the qualifiers to a minimum. My last objection is that "early" director is almost as clunky as the current one - for instance we would not use "late" or "recent" director. However that is just me. If the two of you are okay with it than please proceed. Then the sticky problem becomes moving Baltimore's own John waters away from "filmmaker" as its qualifier :-) MarnetteD | Talk 02:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I'll revert to my first response - "early film" implies the silent days. It should be avoided here. I believe my first move at WP was at Don Taylor - that's the DAB page. Two directors had that name. I moved one because of the drop down. I was able to solve it with no controversy because the better known Don Taylor was also an actor, but the previous title made it sound like he was only an actor. Using the drop down search Don Taylor (director) took you to the lesser-known one with no alternative. I moved the other to Don Taylor (actor/director). It's true readers can probably figure out who they want at the DAB page, but I believe they should have a good shot of determining it from the WP search box drop down as well. That's partly why initials aren't good. There's not going to be a perfect non-verbose solution here. Using my Taylor model, I propose we move our guy here to John Waters (director) and the better known one from Baltimore to John Waters (writer/director), and put a hatnote on both, as with Taylor. That's probably the least verbose, most accurate way to solve this. John Waters (director) would be the lesser-known, but people would immediately see the higher-placed John Waters (writer/director) in the drop down. - Gothicfilm ( talk) 08:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I therefore propose moving per WP:NCPDAB as follows:
in order to achieve sufficient (and simple) disambiguation. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 14:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I know WP:NCPDAB prefers John Waters (director born 1893), but what's wrong with a simple John Waters (1893–1965)? "Born 1893" seems to imply to me that, remarkably, he's still alive. For the deceased, year and death dates seem more reasonable. See Katarzyna Ostrogska for example. Would it really be better if those articles were titled "(noble woman born ...)"? Gabbe ( talk) 08:19, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on John Waters (director born 1893). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)