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The articles below are about the same person. Norreys it seems was the Tudor spelling which has mostly changed to Norris nowadays.
The John Norreys page was started 4 Sept 2005 by User:Wetman
The John Norris (soldier) page was started 2 Nov 2005 by User:Shtove
They should be merged. The second is the longer and User:Shtove has done most of the work on it. As I have only made a very small contribution so far I will stand back for the moment in case one of the major contributers feels inclined to make the merge. It does not seem to me to matter which way the merge is done. Obviously this will leave one article to become just a redirect to the other.
I will place this note on the talk pages of both articles.
Op. Deo 20:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I said above that I did not have a strong view on which way the merge should be made. I have done some research (non-original I hope!) and have concluded that I now quite strongly prefer Norreys to Norris.
First I note evidence to use Norris rather than Norreys is provided by the respected historian Eric Ives whose 2005 paperback The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn I have studied. He has 60 references in the index to Henry Norris, who was John Norreys' grandfather and was executed by Henry VIII in 1536. I note on a few of the referenced pages in the text that Ives has actually used the spelling Norreys - so the book must have been imperfectly edited to show Norris rather than Norreys. However, if Ives chose this spelling, it is an important and influential pointer to modern usage.
Now I turn to evidence for Norreys rather than Norris.
At [1] it says
Notes: The name Norreys has at least 2 potential derivations: one who came from the north or who lived in the north (there was a word "noreis" or "norreis" meaning a northerner), or from one who cared for others (the word "norrice" for nurse). There are also references to Noreis back in the 12° century and to a Robert le Noris in the 1297 Yorkshire Subsidy Roll.
This explains to me why there are so many Norris spellings to found in Tudor times, and Norreys should be regarded as a spelling variation that came into use in the prominent family of John Norreys, but not to any great extent elsewhere - hence all the Norrises.
That family of John Norreys used the version Norreys there is no doubt at all as the following shows:
John Norreys's signature clearly shows how he signed his name Norreys. (NB this webpage contains a typo Tattendon for yattendon which according to google was duely perpetuated on the web - partly by the original version of the article John Norreys)
In the PCC will index I found the following, which would be taken exactly from the spellings in the wills:
The nearest I have got to DNB so far is that the Berkshire history page, which uses John Norreys, claims to be Edited from Leslie Stephens & Sidney Lee's "Dictionary of National Biography" (1891). However, I will make a journey next week to consult a paper copy of the new DNB (the online version is too expensive to subscribe to!)
Strangely, I know someone who spells his name Norreys. I shall have to ask him if he has a continuous descent from these Norreys.
If no evidence can be found of the Norreys family actually changing their name to Norris then I would argue very strongly for the prefered use of Norreys in Wikipedia. As it is, the balance of evidence I have so far found, leads me to prefer the merge of John Norris (soldier) into this article rather than vice versa.
Op. Deo 13:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
In the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (2004) the article on John by D.J.B.Trim is under Norris, John (Norreys). There a separate crossref. under Norreys, John which just says "See Norris, John".
In its opening paras the article says "Although his surname is usually rendered Norris, he himself his mother and at least his brother always spelt it Norreys".
The other entries in ODNB for this family are all under the Norris spelling: Norris, Sir Edward (c1550-1603) by Trim and Norris, Henry by E.Ives. But I have have already noted above that Ives plumped for Norris in his book on Anne Boleyn. Trim, who got his PhD in 2002, has followed the same modern fashion that Ives has, but at least he acknowledges that the original spelling was Norreys.
I think I shall investigate other authorities a little further. I want to see what the 1890s DNB said. Also there is according to the ODNB article a biography, Sir John Norreys and the Elizabethan military world, by John S Nolan (1997). I notice this bio is not referenced among the references on the John Norris (soldier) page. I shall take a look at it and check the two articles we have against this bio. It will take me a few days to do this.
Op. Deo 20:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Sir John Norreys and the Elizabethan Military World, by John S Nolan (1997) contains the following explanation of the author's choice of spelling of the name: "Like many Elizabethan names many different spellings are encountered in contemporary documents, Norries, Noritz, Norrys, Norris - most often used by modern historians. Sir John consistently used Norreys. In respect of the man's personal preference, this book follows his spelling with apologies to modern authorities who have chosen otherwise."
Nolan claims that Sir John has been overlooked by modern biographers of the Elizabethan era. In his time Sir John was a figure in the same class of importance as Drake. Nolan worked on Sir John's history for 5 years before publishing the book. It provides a very great deal of well sourced information. I will add a few bits to the article after doing a merge betwen the two Sir John articles, but I can't claim to have done more than dip into a few topics. I am sure a specialist would be able to a better job than I will do. However, I will make a stab at merging John Norris (soldier) into this article. If anyone strongly argues against this choice of the direction of merge they can always move the material back.
Op. Deo 16:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I have completed the move to this article . I will now blank the John Norris (soldier) page and make it a redirect. The edit history of the material moved here will remain on that page, which should be consulted as necessary. I have also incorporated most of my notes from a short examination of Nolan's biog. These covered the period upto 1584. There is more to be extracted from Nolan to give a better balance on his Norreys' later non-Irish campaigns. This would better balance the present emphasis on his work in Ireland. - Op. Deo 20:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I like your changes, but there's a few points:
The best way to edit: print out - go through with a fiery pen - re-read - enter changes.-- shtove 22:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The article states that the expedition to Rathlin Island 1575 was "...under the command of Sir Francis Drake". This is not quite correct; the operation was under the command of the Earl of Essex. Drake's role was restricted to escorting the troop-ships to Rathlin, and to patrol the waters between Rathlin and the Scottish coast to prevent the Scots from interferring. ( Source : John Sugden , “Sir Francis Drake” , Touchstone – Book , published Simon + Schuster,ISBN 0 – 671 – 75863 – 2) 86.41.251.1 00:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
John Norreys page. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This disambiguation page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The articles below are about the same person. Norreys it seems was the Tudor spelling which has mostly changed to Norris nowadays.
The John Norreys page was started 4 Sept 2005 by User:Wetman
The John Norris (soldier) page was started 2 Nov 2005 by User:Shtove
They should be merged. The second is the longer and User:Shtove has done most of the work on it. As I have only made a very small contribution so far I will stand back for the moment in case one of the major contributers feels inclined to make the merge. It does not seem to me to matter which way the merge is done. Obviously this will leave one article to become just a redirect to the other.
I will place this note on the talk pages of both articles.
Op. Deo 20:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I said above that I did not have a strong view on which way the merge should be made. I have done some research (non-original I hope!) and have concluded that I now quite strongly prefer Norreys to Norris.
First I note evidence to use Norris rather than Norreys is provided by the respected historian Eric Ives whose 2005 paperback The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn I have studied. He has 60 references in the index to Henry Norris, who was John Norreys' grandfather and was executed by Henry VIII in 1536. I note on a few of the referenced pages in the text that Ives has actually used the spelling Norreys - so the book must have been imperfectly edited to show Norris rather than Norreys. However, if Ives chose this spelling, it is an important and influential pointer to modern usage.
Now I turn to evidence for Norreys rather than Norris.
At [1] it says
Notes: The name Norreys has at least 2 potential derivations: one who came from the north or who lived in the north (there was a word "noreis" or "norreis" meaning a northerner), or from one who cared for others (the word "norrice" for nurse). There are also references to Noreis back in the 12° century and to a Robert le Noris in the 1297 Yorkshire Subsidy Roll.
This explains to me why there are so many Norris spellings to found in Tudor times, and Norreys should be regarded as a spelling variation that came into use in the prominent family of John Norreys, but not to any great extent elsewhere - hence all the Norrises.
That family of John Norreys used the version Norreys there is no doubt at all as the following shows:
John Norreys's signature clearly shows how he signed his name Norreys. (NB this webpage contains a typo Tattendon for yattendon which according to google was duely perpetuated on the web - partly by the original version of the article John Norreys)
In the PCC will index I found the following, which would be taken exactly from the spellings in the wills:
The nearest I have got to DNB so far is that the Berkshire history page, which uses John Norreys, claims to be Edited from Leslie Stephens & Sidney Lee's "Dictionary of National Biography" (1891). However, I will make a journey next week to consult a paper copy of the new DNB (the online version is too expensive to subscribe to!)
Strangely, I know someone who spells his name Norreys. I shall have to ask him if he has a continuous descent from these Norreys.
If no evidence can be found of the Norreys family actually changing their name to Norris then I would argue very strongly for the prefered use of Norreys in Wikipedia. As it is, the balance of evidence I have so far found, leads me to prefer the merge of John Norris (soldier) into this article rather than vice versa.
Op. Deo 13:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
In the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (2004) the article on John by D.J.B.Trim is under Norris, John (Norreys). There a separate crossref. under Norreys, John which just says "See Norris, John".
In its opening paras the article says "Although his surname is usually rendered Norris, he himself his mother and at least his brother always spelt it Norreys".
The other entries in ODNB for this family are all under the Norris spelling: Norris, Sir Edward (c1550-1603) by Trim and Norris, Henry by E.Ives. But I have have already noted above that Ives plumped for Norris in his book on Anne Boleyn. Trim, who got his PhD in 2002, has followed the same modern fashion that Ives has, but at least he acknowledges that the original spelling was Norreys.
I think I shall investigate other authorities a little further. I want to see what the 1890s DNB said. Also there is according to the ODNB article a biography, Sir John Norreys and the Elizabethan military world, by John S Nolan (1997). I notice this bio is not referenced among the references on the John Norris (soldier) page. I shall take a look at it and check the two articles we have against this bio. It will take me a few days to do this.
Op. Deo 20:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Sir John Norreys and the Elizabethan Military World, by John S Nolan (1997) contains the following explanation of the author's choice of spelling of the name: "Like many Elizabethan names many different spellings are encountered in contemporary documents, Norries, Noritz, Norrys, Norris - most often used by modern historians. Sir John consistently used Norreys. In respect of the man's personal preference, this book follows his spelling with apologies to modern authorities who have chosen otherwise."
Nolan claims that Sir John has been overlooked by modern biographers of the Elizabethan era. In his time Sir John was a figure in the same class of importance as Drake. Nolan worked on Sir John's history for 5 years before publishing the book. It provides a very great deal of well sourced information. I will add a few bits to the article after doing a merge betwen the two Sir John articles, but I can't claim to have done more than dip into a few topics. I am sure a specialist would be able to a better job than I will do. However, I will make a stab at merging John Norris (soldier) into this article. If anyone strongly argues against this choice of the direction of merge they can always move the material back.
Op. Deo 16:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I have completed the move to this article . I will now blank the John Norris (soldier) page and make it a redirect. The edit history of the material moved here will remain on that page, which should be consulted as necessary. I have also incorporated most of my notes from a short examination of Nolan's biog. These covered the period upto 1584. There is more to be extracted from Nolan to give a better balance on his Norreys' later non-Irish campaigns. This would better balance the present emphasis on his work in Ireland. - Op. Deo 20:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I like your changes, but there's a few points:
The best way to edit: print out - go through with a fiery pen - re-read - enter changes.-- shtove 22:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The article states that the expedition to Rathlin Island 1575 was "...under the command of Sir Francis Drake". This is not quite correct; the operation was under the command of the Earl of Essex. Drake's role was restricted to escorting the troop-ships to Rathlin, and to patrol the waters between Rathlin and the Scottish coast to prevent the Scots from interferring. ( Source : John Sugden , “Sir Francis Drake” , Touchstone – Book , published Simon + Schuster,ISBN 0 – 671 – 75863 – 2) 86.41.251.1 00:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)