This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It appears that the article has a factual error that I can cite a reference to. It statees that John Kerry was promoted to Full Lieutenant after Vietnam. This is incorrect. He was givena temporary promottion to Full Lieutenant as the Admiral's aide. He reverted back to LT JG after he left active duty. I cite as the source the relevant documentation posted on John Kerry's own website, which has the temporary promotion document on it.
On a more controversial subject, John Kerry appears to have lied about his Naval Service. He stated that he was in the service until 1978, at the rank of LTJG. This would ahve violated Navy policy, as those years included the "up or out" policy in promotion. After getting passed over for Full Lieutenant 3 years in a row (1972-1974), he would have been discharged, which should have occurred by 1975. Thus, he could not have been in the reserves until 1978, as his own website attests. Again the cite is in reading his own records, on his website, and also knowing Naval regulations.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycroft 514 ( talk • contribs) 09:21, August 23, 2006
I looked at both www.johnkerry.com and kerry.senate.gov and do not see the claims you mention. Could you please provide a link to these items? While you are about it, can you provide a reference that documents what you say about the promotion policies in effect at the time? -- MoxRox 01:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
He used to have a bunch of selected military documents on his web site. I just went back and they have all been pulled down. Probably because people like me can read between the lines from the documents. One of them was the temporary promotion to LT as an aide to the Admiral. I remember my father talking about the policy of "up or out" in the 1970's. Obviously it was documented somewhere, and this is just one piece of the strange discharge paper he had dated 1978. Well, that and the Navy performance reviews he had up during his campaign. Proper reading of them indicated an officer classified mediocre, at best.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycroft 514 ( talk • contribs) August 25, 2006 (UTC)
Documents in the Internet Archive from johnkerry.com show an official document indicating he was transferred to "Standby Reserve - Inactive" in 1972. That is still "in the reserves" but would not be subject to the up-or-out policy. I would have to see the "in the service until 1978" claim to assess whether it was stated problematically - need that link. Meanwhile, Kerry's sites clearly indicate what he was doing between 1972 and 1978 (going to law school then practicing as a prosecutor), so it seems unlikely any misdirection was intended, or occurred.-- MoxRox 02:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
ALL Naval officers are subject to that policy. The claim of 1978 used to be up on his website, during the campaign - US Navy - 1966-1978.
Further, his discharge paper was up there too, which is not like a normal discharge from the Navy, being signed at a much different level.
Further, his discharge paper was up there too, which is not like a normal discharge from the Navy, being signed at a much different level. It appears to give credence to him being discharged earlier and having the status changed in 1978. This is similar in occurance to my having 2 discharge statuses. The first was an honorable for medical, then a modification by the VA changing the status to service connected disability.
Then Kerry covered it with the revised date. As for misdirected intended. If no misdirection was intended, he would release his entire military record, even now, and dispel this set of occurances. He won't, I would put money on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycroft 514 ( talk • contribs) August 25, 2006 (UTC)
Kerry certainly did release his military records, whereas many public figures have not, who probably have claims about their military service in Wikipedia. (There is no adequate chain-of-custody process for release of a living person's complete service record with certification of authenticity. So there is no possibility of satisfying a smear merchant who claims to want someone else's record released to him. Release to an independent third party is the best that can be done, and it was done in Kerry's case - to the Boston Globe and LA Times, who vouched that there was nothing substantive new except for the Yale grades.)
Mycroft 514, you have not substantiated a single claim with any links to references, and the claims you make have been debunked (and discussed ad nauseum) in plenty of more appropriate places on the internet. I also noticed that the Talk Page rules posted above state, "Please do not use {the talk page} as a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." I have tried to keep my responses brief, but I feel that unsubstantiated allegations should not be allowed to stand. (Any veteran wikipedians want to weigh in on how to handle this?) -- MoxRox 23:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the www.johnkerry.com website has seen fit to remove all this stuff, I had to go learn how to use the wayback machine, and suffer thru its glacial slow response time. So here you are:
Links:
Naval documents in the wayback machine for June 30, 2004 for website www.JOHNKERRY.com
http://web.archive.org/web/20040707083924/www.johnkerry.com/about/military_records.html
PDF with page 4 appointing John Kerry to TEMPORARY rank of full LT. Note the word TEMPORARY in the orders.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040426002850/www.johnkerry.com/about/Temporary_Orders_and_Ranks.pdf
DD214 transfering LTJG John Kerry from active duty to reserves in 1972. (page 2). (Thus having the temporary rank STRIPPED from him)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040614025903/www.johnkerry.com/about/DD214.pdf
At this point the wayback machine went down for maintenance. I will try for the second set after it comes back up. Mycroft_514 And logging in because I forgot to.
On the discharge, I finally found what was going on. The particular record needed is conviently hidden behind a "robots.txt" entry on the wayback machine. Galling, because it was there, but effectively removing the proof of what I was saying. Of course, why would Kerry hide it if it wasn't damaging to his case? Specifially just the final discharge papers, not all the rest of the "selected" records he had posted. Oh well, I can't prove what I have said until someday when Kerry releases ALL his records.
So, as of now, this subsection of the discussion can be removed by the moderators / administrators. Of course, MoxRox might apologize for her comments, since her comment that Kerry released all his records is wrong, and I certainly proven my assertation of the factual error.
I noticed "Sore Loser" redirects to this article. I'll leave that statement hanging in the air for those who are better aquainted with the degree of style to be applied in the Wikipedia to act upon as they see fit. -- Mickel 09:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Why is that an unreliable source? It is a primary source for actions they were a part of. As long as they talk about facts and not draw conclusions I see no reason why they can't be used as a primary source. Blog entries by the authors can be used as primary sources. -- Tbeatty 23:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
"Swiftvets are an unreliable and partisan source." -- Gamaliel in edit summary
Human Events is a reliable source with credible journalists and journalism standards. You might not like it's editorial board but it has journalism standards. This was an interview of persons who were there. They disagree with John Kerry's account and how it was described on his citation. It is a point of view that requires telling. -- Tbeatty 15:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The arbitration committee directed in 2004 that the "telling" take place primarily in the John Kerry military service controversy article (and SBVFT), which was created per the arbitrators' ruling on the matter. A mention of the SBVFT view here is appropriate. A rehashing is not. Derex 05:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Most of Kerry's crewmates are either dead, or they have denounced him, due to his poor leadership and skill. Even worse is that fact that three of his Purple Hearts were self-inflicted wounds.
Why is there a section on SBVFT? This is ridiculous. It's a republican smear group. This is what wikipedia has come to, is it? -Anon
Unlike you, the swift boat veterans were actually there, what makes you think that you make a better source than they do?--— (Kepin) RING THE LIBERTY BELL 12:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
There are Dick Cavett debates between the two principles from the 1970's. There are multiple versions of the events but I haven't seen where one version is more accurate than another. This is valid POV and it should be covered. So should Kerry's. NPOV requires that it be covered expecially since it was such a big part of the election. Kerry's version is the official citation version and it should be given appropriate weight. The other eyewitnesses should also have their version told. --
Tbeatty 16:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
In 2004, the controversies over the major-party candidates' military records attracted considerable attention from Wikipedia editors. The result, in the George Bush and John Kerry articles, was that the section on that issue grew and grew and became disproportionate. The solution in both cases was to spin off a daughter article about the "military service controversy" and leave only a summary in the main article. Kerry's Vietnam experience is an important part of his bio but the major points about it are undisputed. He was there, he was wounded, he was decorated, he shot and killed at least one enemy, and he came to believe that the military effort was futile. The attacks from political opponents concern details that aren't of equal importance with these major points. The attacks can be mentioned in brief summary, with development left to the daughter article. JamesMLane t c 07:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
First sentence in the article. Change it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.110.23 ( talk • contribs) 19:23, September 26, 2006
Kerry was not under oath when he "testified" about USA atrocities? If that's true, this is very interesting to hear. See this link: http://www.vvlf.org/default.php?page_id=77
38.119.52.98 07:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Uh, just read the article - it's right there:
Our chance came earlier this year when Kenneth Campbell was deposed. Among the first thing he disclosed was that this was the first time he had actually been put under oath in over 35 years of "testifying" about Vietnam "war crimes." Neither he nor any of his fellow "war criminals" – Kerry included – had ever been sworn in at any hearings, not before the Senate, the House of Representatives, or anywhere.
38.119.52.98 05:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the 'Too long' tag on this article (of a defeated US presidential candidate). Hubert Humphrey & Walter Mondale (former US Vice Presidents) articles aren't this long. GoodDay 18:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to the complaints about length, I'd like to nominate the "speculation about 2008" section. To me, that's a good candidate to put in a sub article, because it's speculation (though sourced). It's only going to get longer as we approach 2008, too. Derex 23:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Added only the facts and stuck to neutral with sources.
I don't know who added this statement
"Kerry caused much criticism and embarrassment for himself in late October of 2006 when he insinuated during a speech that U.S. troops in Iraq are “stuck” there because they did not do well in school." but it sounds pretty biased
During a speech on October 30, 2006 Kerry spoke to students at Pasadena City College in California. At one point during the speech he said "You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well". The comment has drawn fire from both parties and maybe veterans groups such as the American Legion and the VFW. [6] [7] [8].
While Kerry at first said he would refuse to apologize he later said it was a botched joke. [9]
Its purely stating facts with verifiable sources (such as abcnews), and even says BOTH parties are heated over it. If you don't like the source then change to one you do but stop reverting content for whatever party you think this helps or hurts. If you want NPOV then read with a NPOV.
I'm definitely not pro-administration, and I think it's unfortunate that Kerry has given some fuel for the GOP to make the most of. I would love to see the incident ignored. But in fact the incident has received a fair amount of press lately, and it would be a lie to say that it is not currently prominent in the national discussion. (Even if much of that discussion is driven by pro-GOP news parties.) I cannot imagine seeing that incident reported and discussed in a more neutral and fair way than is currently how it's discussed in the article.
It is entirely possible that after some time has passed, like so many news items that are hot for a short while, this too may seem utterly trivial and unmemorable. Should that be more or less a consensus, then it may be appropriate to delete this incident from the article as simply being not worthy of mention.
I'm surprised to see that an edit I made to this discussion page was removed. This is not the article. Questions should not be deleted. I wanted to know if the theory that Skull and Bones ordered Kerry to help the republicans had been discussed anywhere. I can think of no other reason why a sophisticated politician would stick his foot so deeply into his own mouth by insulting servicemen. Moreover, he is handling the fallout really badly. I just can't believe he is acting so foolishly out of anger and bad feelings. Politicians at his level don't make these kinds of mistakes.
71.206.241.28 23:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
This is one week before the election and all news outlets are reporting on this as a major part of the 2006 campaign. This is a remark which Senator Kerry states was a misinterpreted joke aimed at the Bush administration and what the Republicans are claiming to be an attack on troops serving. Feelings on both sides of the aisle are becoming high and this at least needs to be mentioned in the article. Before I inadvertently kickoff an ultimately pointless revert war, what's everyone else's opinion?-- Folksong 06:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Resigning is the best thing I have heard all day. I believe the section should stay. The comments he made have already made changes to history because Democrats are cancelling appearances. Jbarker2 19:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I am disappointed at the length of the section, especially compared to such important sections as Kerry's voting record, as stated above. But, unfortunately, the cat's out the bag. Perhaps after the election, when hopefully, everything will simmer down, we can trim up the section, But, it would be a great disservice to our readers not to discuss this in the article, as they trust Wikipedia to be a neutral recollection of the facts and I believe it's imperative to have all viewpoints in the section, especially Kerry's explanations, because it is a serious claim that his opponents are making, questioning his patriotism and his support for the troops. FWIW, I attended the speech and those claims are totally out of context, he even spoke about supporting the troops in the beginning of his speech.-- Folksong 18:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, if we must keep it, could it be moved to someplace that makes more sense? Where it is now, it interrupts the flow of the article- it talks about his service in the Senate, then talks about this current situation, then goes back to the Senate and then his 2004 bid. I would say give it its own section, maybe just before the 2008 section. addition- the Vietnam Vet campaign theme immediately following seems out of place too- should be included in 2004 section, I think. --
DarthBinky 19:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, good idea, let's bury any negative aspect of Kerry in a separate article where nobody will see it... Dubc0724 14:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I've already apologized to Darth on his userpage. I'm now here to apologize to everyone else... I initially misread the discussion above and thought sections were being moved to subarticles rather than to other sections of this article. I did not do a good job of assuming good faith, in part due to bad faith edits I've seen elsewhere lately. I have no problem with the article as it stands; I simply misunderstood what was taking place and reacted too quickly and uncoolly. Again, my apologies. Dubc0724 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Made a small removal quoted unverified sources at ABC. Anyone can quote unnamed sources, but that doesn't make it newsworthy. If you can directly quote someone directly connected to the discussion thats understandable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheepdog tx ( talk • contribs) 12:59, November 1, 2006
According to the current article, this one comment by Kerry, and the three handful of days' news coverage it has received so far, is 3 times more important to his biography than the entire 2004 Presidential race, and more important than all stances on issues and votes in the Senate that he has ever had. I think that the "Botched Joke" section is embarrassingly long, and I would trim it down myself to one paragraph with a small smattering of quotes (none from Harold Ford, John Murtha, or anyone except Kerry and the White House) if I didn't think that it would get me in such trouble. -- Mullibok 15:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Considering that this took place in the final days before an election and it's in all the newspapers, it belongs in the article. Per WP:NPOV it doesn't deserve undue weight or space. Durova 21:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that more should be added to the recent remarks section of this article. There should be more about the reaction from soldiers and soldiers families. Also, this could hurt many democrats for reelection in the 2006 election. One day, although it might not be, we could look back on this and think that this could have been why the republicans kept Congress.
Bcody 22:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Bcody, done. Added image from DrudgeReport.com that the troops in Iraq made. The image was also displayed on the MSNBC show "Tucker". Jbarker2 00:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
This link isn't working and its used as a reference in the controversy section.-- Kross Talk 23:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
This is not pertinent to Kerry's statements in the controversy, and it isn't representative of soldiers' opinions of the senator as a whole. The picture, and paragraph accomodating it should be removed.
The picture and the comment at least represent the thoughts of these eight service men. Also, the statement with the picture does not indicate "all" soldier's. The statement and picture should stay.
Jbarker2 03:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The soldiers in the picture are from the Minnesota National Guard 34th Infantry division I believe.-- CWY2190 04:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree it should be covered but it's about as large as the "Personal Life" section. That's way too much text. *Sparkhead 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
We need to summarize and we can leave out the block quotes from every single US politician. A seperate article on this minor incident is not needed. An instructive comparison is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2006 Chris Wallace interview of Bill Clinton, which was deleted. Gamaliel 20:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There must be a full moon out, or a severe shortge of 'tin' foil. Kerry's written 'script' WITH the joke was shown to reporters. The line right before the botched joke was also about bush. One flubbed line can't be described 'comments of Iraq and education'. Maybe the conspiracists here can work some more 'Skull and Bones' claims into the article too! Thank God WE'RE not so desperate that when Bush misspoke and said he was always thinking of new ways to hurt the troops, we claimed that he meant it. Most blogs, including the one the wacky claim came from, aren't acceptable sources. F.A.A.F.A 02:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not think any reasonable person would think a vietnam veteran would call soldiers stupid, especially since he wears his service on his arm like a badge of honor, but politics isnt about being reasonable, hence all the drama over Ford and the super bowl. --
Nuclear
Zer0 12:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The botched joke section shouldn't be a huge gigantic portion of this page its hilarious and ridiculous how big it is.-MrHistory84
In the "Electoral history" section, it states that Kerry received 252 Electoral votes, when in reality, he received only 251. If a registered Wikipedian would please fix, it would be appreciated. Thanks. -- 198.185.18.207 21:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
1. We need a source for whoever said that critics claim that Kerry has a record of insulting troops. Remember, one's personal opinion does not count here, but if a columnist or other published source said it, then it's fine to include it and attribute it in the article.
2. Deleting the second part of the quote which starts off that: "We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job.'" The second part takes Kerry's quote into context, and it's deceitful to readers by withholding part of the truth. What is wrong with letting readers decide their reaction to the quote instead of stacking the cards against Kerry? Also, a personal interpretation of Kerry's statement by deleting part of it is potentially libelous. -- Folksong 08:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I feel for historical purposes that the context of the botched joke must be fully realized. My recommendation would be to add a larger portion of the kerry speech so that it is in proper context and that future people who look to wikipedia as a respectable reference to this incident will not perpetuate something that was taken out of context. too many times are words and speeches taken out of context by the mass media to create controversy and we should not record the history of some person in the media who wants to creat controversy but keep accurate historical record.
At present, the text asserts as factual Kerry's claims regarding the prepared remarks. There remains controversy on this point ( see [11], [12]) - I believe the statement should be qualified, e.g. According to Kerry's staff, . . . Ronnotel 21:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what folks are thinking but there has been a lot of talk in recent revert summaries but virtually no discussion here on the Talk page. One person has already been blocked for violating the 3 Revert Rule and several others appear to either be on the verge of violating it or already in violation. C'mon folks - talk it out here and work this out instead of continuing to make snide comments in the edit summary as you revert one another. I'm trying to keep an eye on the history of the article and as I am very disappointed with the conduct of several experienced editors who should know better than to edit war I'll report any violations of the 3RR that I see. How about a cease fire on this section while ya'll work on it in a sandbox or propose changes here? -- ElKevbo 01:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Peanut, this is simply not an accurate portrayal. You can add anything you like, and I will not object. You have repeatedly deleted
All of these were properly cited and on-topic. Early consensus was that this section should not even belong in the article, at best a cite to wikinews. You have persisted in trying to expand it, despite the efforts of several people to keep it in scope. As it stands it without doubt violates the undue weight provision of NPOV. It is apparently impossible to keep the thing to a reasonable length, because of you adding details furthering your POV. The only recourse then to keep this thing in some semblance of neutrality is to add a fuller range of facts, such as those which you find inconvenient above and so delete. Though I don't think it makes a good article, I won't object to any further details you add. However, at the same time, you need to stop deleting well-source on-point facts that you may not like. Let me be very clear, I have not recently and will not in the future delete any sourced fact. Let me also be clear that this whole section deserves at most 3 lines, as Tbeatty said, and probably nothing at all since pollster consensus is no election impact and thus no notability. Someone else will have to fight that now, because I got tired of holding the line. Derex 02:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Just some comments. Since Derex listed his points, I will use them. This whole thing should only be about three lines. Wikipeida is not a crystal ball and this is a very small quote in, by any measure, an extraordinary life. When the election is over, I am sure there will be an article on the election where the impact of the quote can be explored fully. But here, it's just pure speculation beyond the basic facts.
This should be about three lines. 1) What Kerry said. 2) A neutral description of why it's controversial and 3) his apology and explanation. No need for quotes from Republican or Democrat leaders. No need for supporting and exculpatory quotes and explanations. No need for comparison to previous controversial statements. -- Tbeatty 05:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
All that said, I absolutely agree with your three line punch line. My position on the rest is that if we're going to go with details, then let's not simply choose those unfavorable to Kerry. Derex 05:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
cheesepeanutbar, please explain the source of this tag, per the guidelines. what specific elements are pov? note that i happen to agree with the tag, because the section is a gross violation of the undue weight provision of npov policy. i suspect your reasons are different though. Derex 02:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Without casting aspersions, I would ask that we all try to remember our obligation to assume good faith on the part of all participants. Let's please try to avoid accusations wherever possible. Ronnotel 03:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
-- 65.54.98.105 04:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has recently added a paragraph about Kerry to the plagarism article. I'm not a political junkie and this is the first time I've heard of this. Can those knowledgable about Kerry and his history please take a look at this to make sure it's legit? The paragraph has some citations but it's definitely strange. It almost reads like the reporter who wrote the article cited in the paragraph wrote the paragraph itself as it has some strange details such as the identity of the reporter's wife and a citation of an award he received for unrelated work. -- ElKevbo 17:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Kerry is in a category called "Mob-Busters". I don't seen anything in the article and have not heard anything about him being involved in taking down the Mob. Can anyone clarify this? If Kerry was involved in "busting the mob" we need a source to verify it. -- Geoffrey Gibson 01:52 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry for not realizing in my initial edit summary that the image of John Kerry taken at PCC was deleted by another editor, and not because of the ongoing clamor between people who hate Kerry, love Kerry and have no personal involvement. First of all, the image is not "redundant," it is a photo of Kerry at the event in question (and not featured anywhere else in the article), and it was even used on an external website to illustrate the event.-- Folksong 11:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
To avoid an edit war, maybe we can discuss proposed edits here first.
What is now the second para of the section, just following Kerry's explanation, used to say something like "Others disagreed." Then it mentioned the demands for apologies for "insulting the troops." I corrected it for sense - the demands weren't a disagreement with the explanation. But it seems to me the para still needs a qualifier of some sort because the fact is that even though Kerry offered an explanation these guys were still insisting he was insulting the troops. That is the only context in which makes sense, and has nothing to do with whether an explanation "should have stopped" the demands or anything else. -- EECEE 05:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
For John McCain we have an extensive list of political views, and for Hillary Clinton we have Political views of Hillary Rodham Clinton. But we don't have something similar for John Kerry. Simesa 00:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Apparently, all the links to kproxy.com that are being used as reference are dead. Someone should update/remove them, as they are not useful right now. -- ReyBrujo 01:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It appears that the article has a factual error that I can cite a reference to. It statees that John Kerry was promoted to Full Lieutenant after Vietnam. This is incorrect. He was givena temporary promottion to Full Lieutenant as the Admiral's aide. He reverted back to LT JG after he left active duty. I cite as the source the relevant documentation posted on John Kerry's own website, which has the temporary promotion document on it.
On a more controversial subject, John Kerry appears to have lied about his Naval Service. He stated that he was in the service until 1978, at the rank of LTJG. This would ahve violated Navy policy, as those years included the "up or out" policy in promotion. After getting passed over for Full Lieutenant 3 years in a row (1972-1974), he would have been discharged, which should have occurred by 1975. Thus, he could not have been in the reserves until 1978, as his own website attests. Again the cite is in reading his own records, on his website, and also knowing Naval regulations.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycroft 514 ( talk • contribs) 09:21, August 23, 2006
I looked at both www.johnkerry.com and kerry.senate.gov and do not see the claims you mention. Could you please provide a link to these items? While you are about it, can you provide a reference that documents what you say about the promotion policies in effect at the time? -- MoxRox 01:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
He used to have a bunch of selected military documents on his web site. I just went back and they have all been pulled down. Probably because people like me can read between the lines from the documents. One of them was the temporary promotion to LT as an aide to the Admiral. I remember my father talking about the policy of "up or out" in the 1970's. Obviously it was documented somewhere, and this is just one piece of the strange discharge paper he had dated 1978. Well, that and the Navy performance reviews he had up during his campaign. Proper reading of them indicated an officer classified mediocre, at best.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycroft 514 ( talk • contribs) August 25, 2006 (UTC)
Documents in the Internet Archive from johnkerry.com show an official document indicating he was transferred to "Standby Reserve - Inactive" in 1972. That is still "in the reserves" but would not be subject to the up-or-out policy. I would have to see the "in the service until 1978" claim to assess whether it was stated problematically - need that link. Meanwhile, Kerry's sites clearly indicate what he was doing between 1972 and 1978 (going to law school then practicing as a prosecutor), so it seems unlikely any misdirection was intended, or occurred.-- MoxRox 02:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
ALL Naval officers are subject to that policy. The claim of 1978 used to be up on his website, during the campaign - US Navy - 1966-1978.
Further, his discharge paper was up there too, which is not like a normal discharge from the Navy, being signed at a much different level.
Further, his discharge paper was up there too, which is not like a normal discharge from the Navy, being signed at a much different level. It appears to give credence to him being discharged earlier and having the status changed in 1978. This is similar in occurance to my having 2 discharge statuses. The first was an honorable for medical, then a modification by the VA changing the status to service connected disability.
Then Kerry covered it with the revised date. As for misdirected intended. If no misdirection was intended, he would release his entire military record, even now, and dispel this set of occurances. He won't, I would put money on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycroft 514 ( talk • contribs) August 25, 2006 (UTC)
Kerry certainly did release his military records, whereas many public figures have not, who probably have claims about their military service in Wikipedia. (There is no adequate chain-of-custody process for release of a living person's complete service record with certification of authenticity. So there is no possibility of satisfying a smear merchant who claims to want someone else's record released to him. Release to an independent third party is the best that can be done, and it was done in Kerry's case - to the Boston Globe and LA Times, who vouched that there was nothing substantive new except for the Yale grades.)
Mycroft 514, you have not substantiated a single claim with any links to references, and the claims you make have been debunked (and discussed ad nauseum) in plenty of more appropriate places on the internet. I also noticed that the Talk Page rules posted above state, "Please do not use {the talk page} as a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." I have tried to keep my responses brief, but I feel that unsubstantiated allegations should not be allowed to stand. (Any veteran wikipedians want to weigh in on how to handle this?) -- MoxRox 23:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the www.johnkerry.com website has seen fit to remove all this stuff, I had to go learn how to use the wayback machine, and suffer thru its glacial slow response time. So here you are:
Links:
Naval documents in the wayback machine for June 30, 2004 for website www.JOHNKERRY.com
http://web.archive.org/web/20040707083924/www.johnkerry.com/about/military_records.html
PDF with page 4 appointing John Kerry to TEMPORARY rank of full LT. Note the word TEMPORARY in the orders.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040426002850/www.johnkerry.com/about/Temporary_Orders_and_Ranks.pdf
DD214 transfering LTJG John Kerry from active duty to reserves in 1972. (page 2). (Thus having the temporary rank STRIPPED from him)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040614025903/www.johnkerry.com/about/DD214.pdf
At this point the wayback machine went down for maintenance. I will try for the second set after it comes back up. Mycroft_514 And logging in because I forgot to.
On the discharge, I finally found what was going on. The particular record needed is conviently hidden behind a "robots.txt" entry on the wayback machine. Galling, because it was there, but effectively removing the proof of what I was saying. Of course, why would Kerry hide it if it wasn't damaging to his case? Specifially just the final discharge papers, not all the rest of the "selected" records he had posted. Oh well, I can't prove what I have said until someday when Kerry releases ALL his records.
So, as of now, this subsection of the discussion can be removed by the moderators / administrators. Of course, MoxRox might apologize for her comments, since her comment that Kerry released all his records is wrong, and I certainly proven my assertation of the factual error.
I noticed "Sore Loser" redirects to this article. I'll leave that statement hanging in the air for those who are better aquainted with the degree of style to be applied in the Wikipedia to act upon as they see fit. -- Mickel 09:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Why is that an unreliable source? It is a primary source for actions they were a part of. As long as they talk about facts and not draw conclusions I see no reason why they can't be used as a primary source. Blog entries by the authors can be used as primary sources. -- Tbeatty 23:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
"Swiftvets are an unreliable and partisan source." -- Gamaliel in edit summary
Human Events is a reliable source with credible journalists and journalism standards. You might not like it's editorial board but it has journalism standards. This was an interview of persons who were there. They disagree with John Kerry's account and how it was described on his citation. It is a point of view that requires telling. -- Tbeatty 15:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The arbitration committee directed in 2004 that the "telling" take place primarily in the John Kerry military service controversy article (and SBVFT), which was created per the arbitrators' ruling on the matter. A mention of the SBVFT view here is appropriate. A rehashing is not. Derex 05:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Most of Kerry's crewmates are either dead, or they have denounced him, due to his poor leadership and skill. Even worse is that fact that three of his Purple Hearts were self-inflicted wounds.
Why is there a section on SBVFT? This is ridiculous. It's a republican smear group. This is what wikipedia has come to, is it? -Anon
Unlike you, the swift boat veterans were actually there, what makes you think that you make a better source than they do?--— (Kepin) RING THE LIBERTY BELL 12:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
There are Dick Cavett debates between the two principles from the 1970's. There are multiple versions of the events but I haven't seen where one version is more accurate than another. This is valid POV and it should be covered. So should Kerry's. NPOV requires that it be covered expecially since it was such a big part of the election. Kerry's version is the official citation version and it should be given appropriate weight. The other eyewitnesses should also have their version told. --
Tbeatty 16:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
In 2004, the controversies over the major-party candidates' military records attracted considerable attention from Wikipedia editors. The result, in the George Bush and John Kerry articles, was that the section on that issue grew and grew and became disproportionate. The solution in both cases was to spin off a daughter article about the "military service controversy" and leave only a summary in the main article. Kerry's Vietnam experience is an important part of his bio but the major points about it are undisputed. He was there, he was wounded, he was decorated, he shot and killed at least one enemy, and he came to believe that the military effort was futile. The attacks from political opponents concern details that aren't of equal importance with these major points. The attacks can be mentioned in brief summary, with development left to the daughter article. JamesMLane t c 07:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
First sentence in the article. Change it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.110.23 ( talk • contribs) 19:23, September 26, 2006
Kerry was not under oath when he "testified" about USA atrocities? If that's true, this is very interesting to hear. See this link: http://www.vvlf.org/default.php?page_id=77
38.119.52.98 07:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Uh, just read the article - it's right there:
Our chance came earlier this year when Kenneth Campbell was deposed. Among the first thing he disclosed was that this was the first time he had actually been put under oath in over 35 years of "testifying" about Vietnam "war crimes." Neither he nor any of his fellow "war criminals" – Kerry included – had ever been sworn in at any hearings, not before the Senate, the House of Representatives, or anywhere.
38.119.52.98 05:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the 'Too long' tag on this article (of a defeated US presidential candidate). Hubert Humphrey & Walter Mondale (former US Vice Presidents) articles aren't this long. GoodDay 18:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to the complaints about length, I'd like to nominate the "speculation about 2008" section. To me, that's a good candidate to put in a sub article, because it's speculation (though sourced). It's only going to get longer as we approach 2008, too. Derex 23:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Added only the facts and stuck to neutral with sources.
I don't know who added this statement
"Kerry caused much criticism and embarrassment for himself in late October of 2006 when he insinuated during a speech that U.S. troops in Iraq are “stuck” there because they did not do well in school." but it sounds pretty biased
During a speech on October 30, 2006 Kerry spoke to students at Pasadena City College in California. At one point during the speech he said "You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well". The comment has drawn fire from both parties and maybe veterans groups such as the American Legion and the VFW. [6] [7] [8].
While Kerry at first said he would refuse to apologize he later said it was a botched joke. [9]
Its purely stating facts with verifiable sources (such as abcnews), and even says BOTH parties are heated over it. If you don't like the source then change to one you do but stop reverting content for whatever party you think this helps or hurts. If you want NPOV then read with a NPOV.
I'm definitely not pro-administration, and I think it's unfortunate that Kerry has given some fuel for the GOP to make the most of. I would love to see the incident ignored. But in fact the incident has received a fair amount of press lately, and it would be a lie to say that it is not currently prominent in the national discussion. (Even if much of that discussion is driven by pro-GOP news parties.) I cannot imagine seeing that incident reported and discussed in a more neutral and fair way than is currently how it's discussed in the article.
It is entirely possible that after some time has passed, like so many news items that are hot for a short while, this too may seem utterly trivial and unmemorable. Should that be more or less a consensus, then it may be appropriate to delete this incident from the article as simply being not worthy of mention.
I'm surprised to see that an edit I made to this discussion page was removed. This is not the article. Questions should not be deleted. I wanted to know if the theory that Skull and Bones ordered Kerry to help the republicans had been discussed anywhere. I can think of no other reason why a sophisticated politician would stick his foot so deeply into his own mouth by insulting servicemen. Moreover, he is handling the fallout really badly. I just can't believe he is acting so foolishly out of anger and bad feelings. Politicians at his level don't make these kinds of mistakes.
71.206.241.28 23:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
This is one week before the election and all news outlets are reporting on this as a major part of the 2006 campaign. This is a remark which Senator Kerry states was a misinterpreted joke aimed at the Bush administration and what the Republicans are claiming to be an attack on troops serving. Feelings on both sides of the aisle are becoming high and this at least needs to be mentioned in the article. Before I inadvertently kickoff an ultimately pointless revert war, what's everyone else's opinion?-- Folksong 06:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Resigning is the best thing I have heard all day. I believe the section should stay. The comments he made have already made changes to history because Democrats are cancelling appearances. Jbarker2 19:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I am disappointed at the length of the section, especially compared to such important sections as Kerry's voting record, as stated above. But, unfortunately, the cat's out the bag. Perhaps after the election, when hopefully, everything will simmer down, we can trim up the section, But, it would be a great disservice to our readers not to discuss this in the article, as they trust Wikipedia to be a neutral recollection of the facts and I believe it's imperative to have all viewpoints in the section, especially Kerry's explanations, because it is a serious claim that his opponents are making, questioning his patriotism and his support for the troops. FWIW, I attended the speech and those claims are totally out of context, he even spoke about supporting the troops in the beginning of his speech.-- Folksong 18:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, if we must keep it, could it be moved to someplace that makes more sense? Where it is now, it interrupts the flow of the article- it talks about his service in the Senate, then talks about this current situation, then goes back to the Senate and then his 2004 bid. I would say give it its own section, maybe just before the 2008 section. addition- the Vietnam Vet campaign theme immediately following seems out of place too- should be included in 2004 section, I think. --
DarthBinky 19:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, good idea, let's bury any negative aspect of Kerry in a separate article where nobody will see it... Dubc0724 14:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I've already apologized to Darth on his userpage. I'm now here to apologize to everyone else... I initially misread the discussion above and thought sections were being moved to subarticles rather than to other sections of this article. I did not do a good job of assuming good faith, in part due to bad faith edits I've seen elsewhere lately. I have no problem with the article as it stands; I simply misunderstood what was taking place and reacted too quickly and uncoolly. Again, my apologies. Dubc0724 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Made a small removal quoted unverified sources at ABC. Anyone can quote unnamed sources, but that doesn't make it newsworthy. If you can directly quote someone directly connected to the discussion thats understandable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheepdog tx ( talk • contribs) 12:59, November 1, 2006
According to the current article, this one comment by Kerry, and the three handful of days' news coverage it has received so far, is 3 times more important to his biography than the entire 2004 Presidential race, and more important than all stances on issues and votes in the Senate that he has ever had. I think that the "Botched Joke" section is embarrassingly long, and I would trim it down myself to one paragraph with a small smattering of quotes (none from Harold Ford, John Murtha, or anyone except Kerry and the White House) if I didn't think that it would get me in such trouble. -- Mullibok 15:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Considering that this took place in the final days before an election and it's in all the newspapers, it belongs in the article. Per WP:NPOV it doesn't deserve undue weight or space. Durova 21:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that more should be added to the recent remarks section of this article. There should be more about the reaction from soldiers and soldiers families. Also, this could hurt many democrats for reelection in the 2006 election. One day, although it might not be, we could look back on this and think that this could have been why the republicans kept Congress.
Bcody 22:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Bcody, done. Added image from DrudgeReport.com that the troops in Iraq made. The image was also displayed on the MSNBC show "Tucker". Jbarker2 00:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
This link isn't working and its used as a reference in the controversy section.-- Kross Talk 23:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
This is not pertinent to Kerry's statements in the controversy, and it isn't representative of soldiers' opinions of the senator as a whole. The picture, and paragraph accomodating it should be removed.
The picture and the comment at least represent the thoughts of these eight service men. Also, the statement with the picture does not indicate "all" soldier's. The statement and picture should stay.
Jbarker2 03:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The soldiers in the picture are from the Minnesota National Guard 34th Infantry division I believe.-- CWY2190 04:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree it should be covered but it's about as large as the "Personal Life" section. That's way too much text. *Sparkhead 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
We need to summarize and we can leave out the block quotes from every single US politician. A seperate article on this minor incident is not needed. An instructive comparison is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2006 Chris Wallace interview of Bill Clinton, which was deleted. Gamaliel 20:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There must be a full moon out, or a severe shortge of 'tin' foil. Kerry's written 'script' WITH the joke was shown to reporters. The line right before the botched joke was also about bush. One flubbed line can't be described 'comments of Iraq and education'. Maybe the conspiracists here can work some more 'Skull and Bones' claims into the article too! Thank God WE'RE not so desperate that when Bush misspoke and said he was always thinking of new ways to hurt the troops, we claimed that he meant it. Most blogs, including the one the wacky claim came from, aren't acceptable sources. F.A.A.F.A 02:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not think any reasonable person would think a vietnam veteran would call soldiers stupid, especially since he wears his service on his arm like a badge of honor, but politics isnt about being reasonable, hence all the drama over Ford and the super bowl. --
Nuclear
Zer0 12:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The botched joke section shouldn't be a huge gigantic portion of this page its hilarious and ridiculous how big it is.-MrHistory84
In the "Electoral history" section, it states that Kerry received 252 Electoral votes, when in reality, he received only 251. If a registered Wikipedian would please fix, it would be appreciated. Thanks. -- 198.185.18.207 21:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
1. We need a source for whoever said that critics claim that Kerry has a record of insulting troops. Remember, one's personal opinion does not count here, but if a columnist or other published source said it, then it's fine to include it and attribute it in the article.
2. Deleting the second part of the quote which starts off that: "We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job.'" The second part takes Kerry's quote into context, and it's deceitful to readers by withholding part of the truth. What is wrong with letting readers decide their reaction to the quote instead of stacking the cards against Kerry? Also, a personal interpretation of Kerry's statement by deleting part of it is potentially libelous. -- Folksong 08:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I feel for historical purposes that the context of the botched joke must be fully realized. My recommendation would be to add a larger portion of the kerry speech so that it is in proper context and that future people who look to wikipedia as a respectable reference to this incident will not perpetuate something that was taken out of context. too many times are words and speeches taken out of context by the mass media to create controversy and we should not record the history of some person in the media who wants to creat controversy but keep accurate historical record.
At present, the text asserts as factual Kerry's claims regarding the prepared remarks. There remains controversy on this point ( see [11], [12]) - I believe the statement should be qualified, e.g. According to Kerry's staff, . . . Ronnotel 21:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what folks are thinking but there has been a lot of talk in recent revert summaries but virtually no discussion here on the Talk page. One person has already been blocked for violating the 3 Revert Rule and several others appear to either be on the verge of violating it or already in violation. C'mon folks - talk it out here and work this out instead of continuing to make snide comments in the edit summary as you revert one another. I'm trying to keep an eye on the history of the article and as I am very disappointed with the conduct of several experienced editors who should know better than to edit war I'll report any violations of the 3RR that I see. How about a cease fire on this section while ya'll work on it in a sandbox or propose changes here? -- ElKevbo 01:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Peanut, this is simply not an accurate portrayal. You can add anything you like, and I will not object. You have repeatedly deleted
All of these were properly cited and on-topic. Early consensus was that this section should not even belong in the article, at best a cite to wikinews. You have persisted in trying to expand it, despite the efforts of several people to keep it in scope. As it stands it without doubt violates the undue weight provision of NPOV. It is apparently impossible to keep the thing to a reasonable length, because of you adding details furthering your POV. The only recourse then to keep this thing in some semblance of neutrality is to add a fuller range of facts, such as those which you find inconvenient above and so delete. Though I don't think it makes a good article, I won't object to any further details you add. However, at the same time, you need to stop deleting well-source on-point facts that you may not like. Let me be very clear, I have not recently and will not in the future delete any sourced fact. Let me also be clear that this whole section deserves at most 3 lines, as Tbeatty said, and probably nothing at all since pollster consensus is no election impact and thus no notability. Someone else will have to fight that now, because I got tired of holding the line. Derex 02:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Just some comments. Since Derex listed his points, I will use them. This whole thing should only be about three lines. Wikipeida is not a crystal ball and this is a very small quote in, by any measure, an extraordinary life. When the election is over, I am sure there will be an article on the election where the impact of the quote can be explored fully. But here, it's just pure speculation beyond the basic facts.
This should be about three lines. 1) What Kerry said. 2) A neutral description of why it's controversial and 3) his apology and explanation. No need for quotes from Republican or Democrat leaders. No need for supporting and exculpatory quotes and explanations. No need for comparison to previous controversial statements. -- Tbeatty 05:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
All that said, I absolutely agree with your three line punch line. My position on the rest is that if we're going to go with details, then let's not simply choose those unfavorable to Kerry. Derex 05:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
cheesepeanutbar, please explain the source of this tag, per the guidelines. what specific elements are pov? note that i happen to agree with the tag, because the section is a gross violation of the undue weight provision of npov policy. i suspect your reasons are different though. Derex 02:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Without casting aspersions, I would ask that we all try to remember our obligation to assume good faith on the part of all participants. Let's please try to avoid accusations wherever possible. Ronnotel 03:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
-- 65.54.98.105 04:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has recently added a paragraph about Kerry to the plagarism article. I'm not a political junkie and this is the first time I've heard of this. Can those knowledgable about Kerry and his history please take a look at this to make sure it's legit? The paragraph has some citations but it's definitely strange. It almost reads like the reporter who wrote the article cited in the paragraph wrote the paragraph itself as it has some strange details such as the identity of the reporter's wife and a citation of an award he received for unrelated work. -- ElKevbo 17:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Kerry is in a category called "Mob-Busters". I don't seen anything in the article and have not heard anything about him being involved in taking down the Mob. Can anyone clarify this? If Kerry was involved in "busting the mob" we need a source to verify it. -- Geoffrey Gibson 01:52 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry for not realizing in my initial edit summary that the image of John Kerry taken at PCC was deleted by another editor, and not because of the ongoing clamor between people who hate Kerry, love Kerry and have no personal involvement. First of all, the image is not "redundant," it is a photo of Kerry at the event in question (and not featured anywhere else in the article), and it was even used on an external website to illustrate the event.-- Folksong 11:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
To avoid an edit war, maybe we can discuss proposed edits here first.
What is now the second para of the section, just following Kerry's explanation, used to say something like "Others disagreed." Then it mentioned the demands for apologies for "insulting the troops." I corrected it for sense - the demands weren't a disagreement with the explanation. But it seems to me the para still needs a qualifier of some sort because the fact is that even though Kerry offered an explanation these guys were still insisting he was insulting the troops. That is the only context in which makes sense, and has nothing to do with whether an explanation "should have stopped" the demands or anything else. -- EECEE 05:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
For John McCain we have an extensive list of political views, and for Hillary Clinton we have Political views of Hillary Rodham Clinton. But we don't have something similar for John Kerry. Simesa 00:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Apparently, all the links to kproxy.com that are being used as reference are dead. Someone should update/remove them, as they are not useful right now. -- ReyBrujo 01:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)