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There've been some edits back and forth about calling the result "close". According to my quick eyeballing of past numbers, subject to correction upon exact calculation, Bush's margin (percentage edge over his highest-ranking challenger) was the smallest of any victorious incumbent since Woodrow Wilson in 1916. (Wilson's margin was 3.2%; I don't know whether Bush will end up a little above or a little below that.) Clinton's margin in 1996 was about 8.5%. Reagan, Nixon, LBJ and Eisenhower were all well into the double digits. Even the beleaguered Truman in 1948 seems to have beaten Dewey by about 4%. FDR's smallest edge, in 1944, was about 7.5%. Coolidge in 1924 hit about 25%. Here, or perhaps in the article on the election, we should note that Bush's winning margin was the lowest of any incumbent's in almost a century. JamesMLane 07:10, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
He actually didn't win by the largest popular vote in history just the largest since 1988. Plus population increase makes the whole argument null.
"What was the proportion of popular votes for Bush compared to other historical proportions?"
To discuss the question any other way (than the above) is to spout right-wing propaganda and I'm pretty sure that isn't what we're about.
I don't care what statistics we use as long as they make my candidate look good. 24.176.6.165
This page is constantly vandalized by Bush haters. The Bush page is protected, so why not this? Bart133 21:15, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Repeated reversions of the "Kerry-victory" picture:
File:Kerry victory.jpg led me to recall a discussion on the talk page in which it was decided to use Kerry's official senate portrait (available on his senate office website) -
. I object to replacing the portrait without discussion (as Randy Johnston and Rebroad have done). In support of keeping the official campaign picture I have three points.
(forgive the formatting of the pictures) -- ABQCat 23:51, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If there is a case to be made for changing the lead picture, please make it here before changing it so we can avoid a revert war over this issue.
Gamaliel 00:07, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with using the official portrait as the lead image. The campaign photo could be included in John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004, in addition to or instead of the several campaign photos already there. This main article already has two campaign photos; what would really add to it would be a good public-domain image of Kerry and Bush debating. JamesMLane 00:09, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay, sorry guys. I preferred the image over the "official" one and didn't know it would cause a problem. -- Randy 00:13, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I put this image, Image:John F. Kerry.jpg, from Kerry's senate website up because it looks more like Kerry, circa 2004, than the other image did. It's not a snapshot or campaign photo either, so maybe everybody will be happy with it.
I made a couple of corrections in the marriage box. They might be self-evident, but I'll elaborate anyway.
(1) For Kerry's first marriage, his status is "divorced." I took out the notation "divorced in civil law, annulled in RC canon law." In the U.S., as person's marriage status in his/her religious faith is of no legal consequence whatever. Religious powers can marry only by the power vested in them by the state in which the marriage takes place. Take the opposite case: if the church refused Kerry an annulment (it has happened) it would not be appropriate to say, in the main factbox "Kerry was divorced in civil law, but is a bigamist in church law," or "Kerry is married to Julia Thorne in religious law, and to Teresa Heinz in civil law." His marriage status according to his religious faith should appear in his personal life section, if anywhere.
(2) Kerry's second marriage is to Teresa Heinz, her accepted name at the time of marriage, not Teresa Heinz Kerry. This is not just an academic or stylistic point: Franklin D. Roosevelt did marry Eleanor Roosevelt, his cousin. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 04:04, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I had found out these articles awhile back but was just reading John kerrys entry and the entry on john kerrys military service, and service controversy but was unable to find this mentioned. Crimson Herald followed John Kerry campaigned for Congress for the first time. Author of the article Samuel Z. Goldhaber mentioned...
Quoted from the second link bellow:
"At Yale, Kerry was chairman of the Political Union and later, as Commencement speaker, urged the United States to withdraw from Vietnam and to scale down foreign military operations. And this was way back in 1966.
When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy. END OF QUOTE.
The first link is a current article looking back at the second Link's article that was written in 1970. The man who wrote the article Goldhaber says Kerry has never contanted him or the newspaper to say that it was false. And nowadays when the Telegraph paper writing the current article tried to contact kerrys people they never denyed the article. I was wondering if this should be mentioned somewhere or if this is crediable or not?
ARTICLE: Revealed: how 'war hero' Kerry tried to put off Vietnam military duty 07/03/2004 LINK: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html
ARTICLE: John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress Wednesday, February 18, 1970 LINK: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185
Kerry is a senator now... while he may be a laywer too, he is mainly a senator.
This piece seems to have a pro-Kerry spin in some areas.
--I re-added his current office to the caption underneath his portrait. I think his occupation as a Senator should be mentioned in the caption, because it also lists his profession as a lawyer. While he has some sort of legal background, does anybody know the last time he took the "Bar" (or whatever certification exam it is)? Another rhetorical question: when was the last time he represented somebody in Judicial court or the last time he prepared legal documents for private parties in return for a fee? Raazer 17:17, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)--
Looks like those two are teaming up to get revert happy again. 216.153.214.94 19:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The non-signed Form 180 needs to be mentioned. [1] 216.153.214.94 03:24, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My edits today on a miscellany of points:
Will those editors who keep immediately reverting all my edits here kindly exlplain why they think they are entitled to keep John Kerry 100% frozen "as-is"? Thank you. 216.153.214.94 00:41, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is unreasonalbe - there is no reason the full quote should not be included. We should use facts and direct quotes instead of summaries for contenious issues since a summary is more likely to push a particular POV. Symes 03:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why is "he made this admission in the context of criticism of free-fire zones and other alleged violations of the Geneva Convention." less POV than quoting his full text - it is only one extra line and doesn't soften his admission - he clarifies clearly what he means - that by participating in free-fire zones and toher things he was like thousands of other soldires committing war crimes. Symes
Wrong buddy. This was my edit. Although i don't recall changing the part about his alleged service violation. I thought i highlighted it to copy it to another article of mine. It's possible i did CTRL-X instead of CTRL-C. If that's the case, i apologize. But i removed the gay porn quote as can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=George_W._Bush&diff=0&oldid=12235843 OK. It appears you editors have edited the history to somehow prove a point. I commend you at your absolute corruption. My actual edit involved removing a line that said George W. Bush enjoys gay porn in his free time.
I agree with the above editor that there is a pro-Kerry bias at John Kerry. Even so, I am hoping that through dialog, this can be rectified. Here are some things which concern me about the John Kerry article at this time:
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 07:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the links to the two documentaries, I want them to both appear in the "See also" section, thusly:
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 21:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can you guys help me, from what I can see the users involved in the pro-Kerry on 4.14 Gmaxwell Cvaneg Rhobite Szyslak refuse to engage in substantive discussion since the page was protected, and I am accused of being an anon because I happened upon this page about 4 edits before it was locked and couldn't get an edit to succeed. I agree with the points by Rex - this page is nothing like the pages for Bush and Reagan - there isn't good balance.
Symes 11:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) - sorry meant to delete Rhobite - when I did the copy and paste from the history page.
Symes 00:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also please keep in mind (I am not a Kerry supporter) that it is most magnanimous to seek to use a sympathetic and positive tone regarding the subject of the article. Even in articles on Sadaam Hussein and Hitler, we do best when we allow the facts to speak for themselves. Please do not read me to say you are staying away from facts. I know that, for example, you wanted to insert the direct quote of Kerry's about the way all the American soldiers, including himself, committed war crimes. Just be patient, try to see Kerry as a good man, a brother, an honorable person with honest ideals that you happen to disagree with. The folks you are disagreeing with on this page will agree with you much more easily if they can perhaps believe that you don't want to lump Kerry in with Hitler, demonize him, make him an offender for a word because of what he said about war crimes. If that fails, perhaps I can understand your concerns and try to suggest edits that will address them. Tom Haws 16:35, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
--The original editor who entered the Kerry quote and was banned for doing so.
This is again unacceptable. Rhobite also reverted the article more than three times. He should also have been banned. There was no "consensus" about whether the quote should be in or not. In fact, if we took a national poll i can assure you that people would say the quote SHOULD be in the article. After all, it was a major point in the 2004 election. Any calm way of claiming that the quote is somehow not important is a mere slip-of-the-hand tactic to avoid putting in a damaging quote about a self-admitted war criminal. It is okay to have voted for him. It is also okay to still support him. But limiting the knowledge of other people about him by leaving out some hugely contested quotes is rediculous. Spare me the insulting reasoning that you editors somehow questioned the Wikipedia audience and found that they did not want the quote in. I thought Wikipedia was about information. Since a quote by itself cannot be biased, having the quote is simply showing more infomation. This particular quote was important enough to people to be a huge topic in the 2004 election. This is a major point about John Kerry's life and leaving it out is like leaving out information about Hitler's war crimes. At not point should wikipedia limit information that was crucial to 51.5% of the voters and perhaps more in the 2004 election. Don't question my intelligence. This is balatant limiting of information on the editors of Wikipedia. I will not be satisfied until the quote is put in. I ask you all, what is wrong in having the quote in? What policy does the quote violate? Why would you want to leave out a quote that has had huge implications for John Kerry's political carrer?
Also, please don't justify someone's reasoning by falsely claiming you are a Republican and still against the quote being in. This was one of Plato's greatest tactics at argument and is the most shady and immoral of them all. It's like me claiming i am a jew whose family was burned in the holocaust but i do not want the articles about Hitler to have the holocaust in them. You guys are really corrupt.
One last thing in response to Rhobite's claims. I never vandalized any articles. I never tried to overload the wikipedia servers. Lastly, i am not from Washington, i am from Montana. Your lies are laughable and reflect the sad paradigm of wikipedia editors. Also, your 3 reversions of the article indicate that you should be banned. If you are not above the law, then i suggest you ban yourself, or get an administrator to do so. Of course, you will not ban yourself so your whole attempt at being some sort of law-abiding virtuous editor is a joke. If this is a society where the rules don't apply to you, then it is a corrupt society. Period.
-The Original Editor of the Kerry article
I've archived all pre-election 2004 items (in sequential order) to this new link Talk:John_Kerry/041405.archive. Let's concentrate on this current (3) items above, then we can see about other issues too, perhaps even some past unresolved ones. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 00:40, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
When the article becomes unprotected, could someone please insert the Template:MA-FedRep into the article. -- Harro5 04:16, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone else feel like unprotecting this article? It's been protected for 12 days.. the dispute over the atrocities quote was pretty silly, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that should cause a prominent page to be protected for almsot 2 weeks. If people feel that our use of the atrocity quote is currently not neutral, let's work on it. Thanks. Also, Rex has been banned so that should make it easier to edit this article. Rhobite 20:10, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
I'll go ahead an unprotect. Let me know if there are any problems, and I will keep this on my watchlist. Tom Haws 15:39, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
Hawstom, your edit is fair. It leaves the quote in and even ads information that is useful to a reader. Thank you for not being biased and not being against information. If people think i have selectively edited the quote, i invite them to include the full quote. I only added the parts relevant to the war crimes admission. Wikipedia needs some serious balance. You seem to be a rare, balanced editor.
I agree with Cecropia - it's nonsense to say that the election results were "marred" by controversy. Outside of a group of activists (unfortunately including a few Wikipedia editors) armed with junk statistics and conjecture, there wasn't much real controversy. Similar attempts to cram the election controversy article into Bush's lead section were reverted. Rhobite 19:53, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
We had a lot of information about this issue and it was really getting to clutter the main article. That's why we set up the daughter article with the wikilink, leaving just a summary here. The paragraph added by Johntex about Form 180 is part of that larger controversy, so I've moved it to John Kerry military service controversy, and added the source from Johntex's edit summary. JamesMLane 07:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
The "Kerry would have been taller than Lincoln" line that was just added as the second graph got me checking. Some time ago that same line was modified to "Kerry would have been the same height as Lincoln." At that time I checked it against the Lincoln article, which said that Lincoln was 6' 4", not 6' 3.75", which is what the Lincoln article now says. I'm pretty certain that that fact should appear where it does and not as the second graph, but we should try to have the correct fact, eh? Anyone know where the two really do "stack up?" - I'm not going to lie, I'm suprised that Lincoln would have been so definitively measured to a quarter of an inch... Sirmob 03:48, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Abraham Lincoln himself once said he was "nearly 6' 4"
Nearly 6' 4" != 6' 3.75" - also, I'd like to see a cite. Sirmob 03:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Stating Kerry's grades is at least information about Kerry, though most of our biographical articles don't go into such detail about the subject's academic career. Comparing his grades to someone else's, though, is getting way too far afield. The article isn't about the 2004 election; it's about John Kerry, and John Kerry is not defined by his comparison with his opponent in one particular race. This factoid has been in and out of this article and the Bush article, because it was just recently reported. Now that the "excitement" has died down, though, it should come out. I don't see how it matters that it wasn't removed at one point. Wikipedia articles are always subject to improvement. JamesMLane 29 June 2005 05:33 (UTC)
Bush supporters are coming out and making a big deal of Kerry's grades being worse than Bush's. But all of them will have to agree with me when I say Cheney is smarter than Bush. How did Cheney do at Yale? Well, while he lasted there, he got F's and flunked out of the college. He then had to go to University of Wyoming to graduate. Now, Bush depends on Cheney to get anyhting done. Cheney basically "won" the election for Bush. And Kerry participated in many sports and clubs. If Bush is smarter than Kerry, why was he knocked out of each and every head-to-head debate? Those grades are not where it's all at
During the DNC convention didn't his daughters say he is 6-foot-6? I believe that is his height.
There, it's fixed. Whoever wrote "John FAgoot Motherfucking Forbes Kerry" and the other phrase at the beginning should be banned.
Neutrality has removed, as unsourced, TDC's addition about Kerry's supposed accusation against CIA operative and Iran-Contra figure Felix Rodriguez. What I've confirmed so far is: Kerry's subcommittee heard testimony from a convicted money launderer named Ramon Milian Rodriguez, apparently no relation to Felix Rodriguez. Here's what the committee report says: "Milian Rodriguez testified that in a meeting arranged by Miami private detective Raoul Diaz with Felix Rodriguez, he (Milian) offered to provide drug money to the Contras. Milian Rodriguez stated that Felix accepted the offer and $10 million in such assistance was subsequently provided the Contras through a system of secret couriers." It goes on to state: "Felix Rodriguez strenuously denied Milian Rodriguez's version of the meeting, stating that he reported Milian's offer to a number of U.S. government agencies, including the FBI and CIA." Given this conflict between the two accounts of what happened, Kerry, as the subcommittee chair, arranged for Ramon Milian Rodriguez to be given a lie-detector test. He flunked it. The next month, when Felix Rodriguez gave his public testimony before the subcommittee, "Senator Kerry stated that he did not believe Ramon Milian Rodriguez' version of the meeting was truthful." I'm guessing that's the part that's referred to as an apology.
I find no basis for the charge that Kerry made such an accusation against Felix Rodriguez. It's apparently undisputed that there was a meeting between Ramon Milian Rodriguez and Felix Rodriguez. Kerry's subcommittee heard sworn testimony from one of the participants in this meeting that implicated Felix Rodriguez in involvement in drug trafficking. Felix Rodriguez was a CIA agent (or former CIA agent) who played a key role in the illegal supply of arms to the Contras. When a Congressional subcommittee hears sworn testimony that someone with that kind of connection to the U.S. government has been involved in drug trafficking, what are they supposed to do, ignore it?
Incidentally, there are also allegations that Felix Rodriguez played a role in the "War on Terrorism" -- his role was allegedly to help Luis Posada Carriles escape from a Venezuelan prison. Carriles, another anti-Castro operative trained by the CIA, was doing time for his role in the bombing of a Cuban jetliner, in which 73 people were killed. This aid to the terrorist cause is part of the resume that entitles Felix Rodriguez to a White House Christmas card from George W. Bush every year. [7] I haven't yet had the chance to track down the details of that little episode, though. JamesMLane 00:37, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
When exactly was Kerry in Paris to meet with his communist overlords? It seems that there is abit of a myster as to how many times he went and the dates. TDC 21:40, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be some dispute in the references mentioned in regards to John Kerry's exact relationship to George W. Bush. An MSNBC article from Feb. 17, 2004 mentions the relationship as 16th cousins, three times removed. Yet, a reference from Family Forest CD-ROM from August 8, 2004, indicates the relationship as ninth cousins, twice removed. Both articles were referenced in the wikipedia article, which could cause some confusion. Perhaps both are related at two difference points in their lineages? Or possible there is some error here?
Dr. Cash 19:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't matter anyway, we all come from Adam and Eve
ba
I have made a few fact-based changes to the page. If you have an issue with them please discuss here before reverting. Thanks.
During the 2004 election, Mark Hyman, the host of the Point Comentary, made a claim that one of John Kerry's Purple Hearts was awarded for a minor scratch. He said that it was treated by antiseptic and a band-aid. Was that a reference to John Kerry's first Purple Heart?
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
There've been some edits back and forth about calling the result "close". According to my quick eyeballing of past numbers, subject to correction upon exact calculation, Bush's margin (percentage edge over his highest-ranking challenger) was the smallest of any victorious incumbent since Woodrow Wilson in 1916. (Wilson's margin was 3.2%; I don't know whether Bush will end up a little above or a little below that.) Clinton's margin in 1996 was about 8.5%. Reagan, Nixon, LBJ and Eisenhower were all well into the double digits. Even the beleaguered Truman in 1948 seems to have beaten Dewey by about 4%. FDR's smallest edge, in 1944, was about 7.5%. Coolidge in 1924 hit about 25%. Here, or perhaps in the article on the election, we should note that Bush's winning margin was the lowest of any incumbent's in almost a century. JamesMLane 07:10, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
He actually didn't win by the largest popular vote in history just the largest since 1988. Plus population increase makes the whole argument null.
"What was the proportion of popular votes for Bush compared to other historical proportions?"
To discuss the question any other way (than the above) is to spout right-wing propaganda and I'm pretty sure that isn't what we're about.
I don't care what statistics we use as long as they make my candidate look good. 24.176.6.165
This page is constantly vandalized by Bush haters. The Bush page is protected, so why not this? Bart133 21:15, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Repeated reversions of the "Kerry-victory" picture:
File:Kerry victory.jpg led me to recall a discussion on the talk page in which it was decided to use Kerry's official senate portrait (available on his senate office website) -
. I object to replacing the portrait without discussion (as Randy Johnston and Rebroad have done). In support of keeping the official campaign picture I have three points.
(forgive the formatting of the pictures) -- ABQCat 23:51, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If there is a case to be made for changing the lead picture, please make it here before changing it so we can avoid a revert war over this issue.
Gamaliel 00:07, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with using the official portrait as the lead image. The campaign photo could be included in John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004, in addition to or instead of the several campaign photos already there. This main article already has two campaign photos; what would really add to it would be a good public-domain image of Kerry and Bush debating. JamesMLane 00:09, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay, sorry guys. I preferred the image over the "official" one and didn't know it would cause a problem. -- Randy 00:13, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I put this image, Image:John F. Kerry.jpg, from Kerry's senate website up because it looks more like Kerry, circa 2004, than the other image did. It's not a snapshot or campaign photo either, so maybe everybody will be happy with it.
I made a couple of corrections in the marriage box. They might be self-evident, but I'll elaborate anyway.
(1) For Kerry's first marriage, his status is "divorced." I took out the notation "divorced in civil law, annulled in RC canon law." In the U.S., as person's marriage status in his/her religious faith is of no legal consequence whatever. Religious powers can marry only by the power vested in them by the state in which the marriage takes place. Take the opposite case: if the church refused Kerry an annulment (it has happened) it would not be appropriate to say, in the main factbox "Kerry was divorced in civil law, but is a bigamist in church law," or "Kerry is married to Julia Thorne in religious law, and to Teresa Heinz in civil law." His marriage status according to his religious faith should appear in his personal life section, if anywhere.
(2) Kerry's second marriage is to Teresa Heinz, her accepted name at the time of marriage, not Teresa Heinz Kerry. This is not just an academic or stylistic point: Franklin D. Roosevelt did marry Eleanor Roosevelt, his cousin. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 04:04, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I had found out these articles awhile back but was just reading John kerrys entry and the entry on john kerrys military service, and service controversy but was unable to find this mentioned. Crimson Herald followed John Kerry campaigned for Congress for the first time. Author of the article Samuel Z. Goldhaber mentioned...
Quoted from the second link bellow:
"At Yale, Kerry was chairman of the Political Union and later, as Commencement speaker, urged the United States to withdraw from Vietnam and to scale down foreign military operations. And this was way back in 1966.
When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy. END OF QUOTE.
The first link is a current article looking back at the second Link's article that was written in 1970. The man who wrote the article Goldhaber says Kerry has never contanted him or the newspaper to say that it was false. And nowadays when the Telegraph paper writing the current article tried to contact kerrys people they never denyed the article. I was wondering if this should be mentioned somewhere or if this is crediable or not?
ARTICLE: Revealed: how 'war hero' Kerry tried to put off Vietnam military duty 07/03/2004 LINK: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html
ARTICLE: John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress Wednesday, February 18, 1970 LINK: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185
Kerry is a senator now... while he may be a laywer too, he is mainly a senator.
This piece seems to have a pro-Kerry spin in some areas.
--I re-added his current office to the caption underneath his portrait. I think his occupation as a Senator should be mentioned in the caption, because it also lists his profession as a lawyer. While he has some sort of legal background, does anybody know the last time he took the "Bar" (or whatever certification exam it is)? Another rhetorical question: when was the last time he represented somebody in Judicial court or the last time he prepared legal documents for private parties in return for a fee? Raazer 17:17, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)--
Looks like those two are teaming up to get revert happy again. 216.153.214.94 19:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The non-signed Form 180 needs to be mentioned. [1] 216.153.214.94 03:24, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My edits today on a miscellany of points:
Will those editors who keep immediately reverting all my edits here kindly exlplain why they think they are entitled to keep John Kerry 100% frozen "as-is"? Thank you. 216.153.214.94 00:41, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is unreasonalbe - there is no reason the full quote should not be included. We should use facts and direct quotes instead of summaries for contenious issues since a summary is more likely to push a particular POV. Symes 03:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why is "he made this admission in the context of criticism of free-fire zones and other alleged violations of the Geneva Convention." less POV than quoting his full text - it is only one extra line and doesn't soften his admission - he clarifies clearly what he means - that by participating in free-fire zones and toher things he was like thousands of other soldires committing war crimes. Symes
Wrong buddy. This was my edit. Although i don't recall changing the part about his alleged service violation. I thought i highlighted it to copy it to another article of mine. It's possible i did CTRL-X instead of CTRL-C. If that's the case, i apologize. But i removed the gay porn quote as can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=George_W._Bush&diff=0&oldid=12235843 OK. It appears you editors have edited the history to somehow prove a point. I commend you at your absolute corruption. My actual edit involved removing a line that said George W. Bush enjoys gay porn in his free time.
I agree with the above editor that there is a pro-Kerry bias at John Kerry. Even so, I am hoping that through dialog, this can be rectified. Here are some things which concern me about the John Kerry article at this time:
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 07:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the links to the two documentaries, I want them to both appear in the "See also" section, thusly:
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 21:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can you guys help me, from what I can see the users involved in the pro-Kerry on 4.14 Gmaxwell Cvaneg Rhobite Szyslak refuse to engage in substantive discussion since the page was protected, and I am accused of being an anon because I happened upon this page about 4 edits before it was locked and couldn't get an edit to succeed. I agree with the points by Rex - this page is nothing like the pages for Bush and Reagan - there isn't good balance.
Symes 11:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) - sorry meant to delete Rhobite - when I did the copy and paste from the history page.
Symes 00:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also please keep in mind (I am not a Kerry supporter) that it is most magnanimous to seek to use a sympathetic and positive tone regarding the subject of the article. Even in articles on Sadaam Hussein and Hitler, we do best when we allow the facts to speak for themselves. Please do not read me to say you are staying away from facts. I know that, for example, you wanted to insert the direct quote of Kerry's about the way all the American soldiers, including himself, committed war crimes. Just be patient, try to see Kerry as a good man, a brother, an honorable person with honest ideals that you happen to disagree with. The folks you are disagreeing with on this page will agree with you much more easily if they can perhaps believe that you don't want to lump Kerry in with Hitler, demonize him, make him an offender for a word because of what he said about war crimes. If that fails, perhaps I can understand your concerns and try to suggest edits that will address them. Tom Haws 16:35, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
--The original editor who entered the Kerry quote and was banned for doing so.
This is again unacceptable. Rhobite also reverted the article more than three times. He should also have been banned. There was no "consensus" about whether the quote should be in or not. In fact, if we took a national poll i can assure you that people would say the quote SHOULD be in the article. After all, it was a major point in the 2004 election. Any calm way of claiming that the quote is somehow not important is a mere slip-of-the-hand tactic to avoid putting in a damaging quote about a self-admitted war criminal. It is okay to have voted for him. It is also okay to still support him. But limiting the knowledge of other people about him by leaving out some hugely contested quotes is rediculous. Spare me the insulting reasoning that you editors somehow questioned the Wikipedia audience and found that they did not want the quote in. I thought Wikipedia was about information. Since a quote by itself cannot be biased, having the quote is simply showing more infomation. This particular quote was important enough to people to be a huge topic in the 2004 election. This is a major point about John Kerry's life and leaving it out is like leaving out information about Hitler's war crimes. At not point should wikipedia limit information that was crucial to 51.5% of the voters and perhaps more in the 2004 election. Don't question my intelligence. This is balatant limiting of information on the editors of Wikipedia. I will not be satisfied until the quote is put in. I ask you all, what is wrong in having the quote in? What policy does the quote violate? Why would you want to leave out a quote that has had huge implications for John Kerry's political carrer?
Also, please don't justify someone's reasoning by falsely claiming you are a Republican and still against the quote being in. This was one of Plato's greatest tactics at argument and is the most shady and immoral of them all. It's like me claiming i am a jew whose family was burned in the holocaust but i do not want the articles about Hitler to have the holocaust in them. You guys are really corrupt.
One last thing in response to Rhobite's claims. I never vandalized any articles. I never tried to overload the wikipedia servers. Lastly, i am not from Washington, i am from Montana. Your lies are laughable and reflect the sad paradigm of wikipedia editors. Also, your 3 reversions of the article indicate that you should be banned. If you are not above the law, then i suggest you ban yourself, or get an administrator to do so. Of course, you will not ban yourself so your whole attempt at being some sort of law-abiding virtuous editor is a joke. If this is a society where the rules don't apply to you, then it is a corrupt society. Period.
-The Original Editor of the Kerry article
I've archived all pre-election 2004 items (in sequential order) to this new link Talk:John_Kerry/041405.archive. Let's concentrate on this current (3) items above, then we can see about other issues too, perhaps even some past unresolved ones. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 00:40, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
When the article becomes unprotected, could someone please insert the Template:MA-FedRep into the article. -- Harro5 04:16, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone else feel like unprotecting this article? It's been protected for 12 days.. the dispute over the atrocities quote was pretty silly, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that should cause a prominent page to be protected for almsot 2 weeks. If people feel that our use of the atrocity quote is currently not neutral, let's work on it. Thanks. Also, Rex has been banned so that should make it easier to edit this article. Rhobite 20:10, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
I'll go ahead an unprotect. Let me know if there are any problems, and I will keep this on my watchlist. Tom Haws 15:39, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
Hawstom, your edit is fair. It leaves the quote in and even ads information that is useful to a reader. Thank you for not being biased and not being against information. If people think i have selectively edited the quote, i invite them to include the full quote. I only added the parts relevant to the war crimes admission. Wikipedia needs some serious balance. You seem to be a rare, balanced editor.
I agree with Cecropia - it's nonsense to say that the election results were "marred" by controversy. Outside of a group of activists (unfortunately including a few Wikipedia editors) armed with junk statistics and conjecture, there wasn't much real controversy. Similar attempts to cram the election controversy article into Bush's lead section were reverted. Rhobite 19:53, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
We had a lot of information about this issue and it was really getting to clutter the main article. That's why we set up the daughter article with the wikilink, leaving just a summary here. The paragraph added by Johntex about Form 180 is part of that larger controversy, so I've moved it to John Kerry military service controversy, and added the source from Johntex's edit summary. JamesMLane 07:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
The "Kerry would have been taller than Lincoln" line that was just added as the second graph got me checking. Some time ago that same line was modified to "Kerry would have been the same height as Lincoln." At that time I checked it against the Lincoln article, which said that Lincoln was 6' 4", not 6' 3.75", which is what the Lincoln article now says. I'm pretty certain that that fact should appear where it does and not as the second graph, but we should try to have the correct fact, eh? Anyone know where the two really do "stack up?" - I'm not going to lie, I'm suprised that Lincoln would have been so definitively measured to a quarter of an inch... Sirmob 03:48, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Abraham Lincoln himself once said he was "nearly 6' 4"
Nearly 6' 4" != 6' 3.75" - also, I'd like to see a cite. Sirmob 03:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Stating Kerry's grades is at least information about Kerry, though most of our biographical articles don't go into such detail about the subject's academic career. Comparing his grades to someone else's, though, is getting way too far afield. The article isn't about the 2004 election; it's about John Kerry, and John Kerry is not defined by his comparison with his opponent in one particular race. This factoid has been in and out of this article and the Bush article, because it was just recently reported. Now that the "excitement" has died down, though, it should come out. I don't see how it matters that it wasn't removed at one point. Wikipedia articles are always subject to improvement. JamesMLane 29 June 2005 05:33 (UTC)
Bush supporters are coming out and making a big deal of Kerry's grades being worse than Bush's. But all of them will have to agree with me when I say Cheney is smarter than Bush. How did Cheney do at Yale? Well, while he lasted there, he got F's and flunked out of the college. He then had to go to University of Wyoming to graduate. Now, Bush depends on Cheney to get anyhting done. Cheney basically "won" the election for Bush. And Kerry participated in many sports and clubs. If Bush is smarter than Kerry, why was he knocked out of each and every head-to-head debate? Those grades are not where it's all at
During the DNC convention didn't his daughters say he is 6-foot-6? I believe that is his height.
There, it's fixed. Whoever wrote "John FAgoot Motherfucking Forbes Kerry" and the other phrase at the beginning should be banned.
Neutrality has removed, as unsourced, TDC's addition about Kerry's supposed accusation against CIA operative and Iran-Contra figure Felix Rodriguez. What I've confirmed so far is: Kerry's subcommittee heard testimony from a convicted money launderer named Ramon Milian Rodriguez, apparently no relation to Felix Rodriguez. Here's what the committee report says: "Milian Rodriguez testified that in a meeting arranged by Miami private detective Raoul Diaz with Felix Rodriguez, he (Milian) offered to provide drug money to the Contras. Milian Rodriguez stated that Felix accepted the offer and $10 million in such assistance was subsequently provided the Contras through a system of secret couriers." It goes on to state: "Felix Rodriguez strenuously denied Milian Rodriguez's version of the meeting, stating that he reported Milian's offer to a number of U.S. government agencies, including the FBI and CIA." Given this conflict between the two accounts of what happened, Kerry, as the subcommittee chair, arranged for Ramon Milian Rodriguez to be given a lie-detector test. He flunked it. The next month, when Felix Rodriguez gave his public testimony before the subcommittee, "Senator Kerry stated that he did not believe Ramon Milian Rodriguez' version of the meeting was truthful." I'm guessing that's the part that's referred to as an apology.
I find no basis for the charge that Kerry made such an accusation against Felix Rodriguez. It's apparently undisputed that there was a meeting between Ramon Milian Rodriguez and Felix Rodriguez. Kerry's subcommittee heard sworn testimony from one of the participants in this meeting that implicated Felix Rodriguez in involvement in drug trafficking. Felix Rodriguez was a CIA agent (or former CIA agent) who played a key role in the illegal supply of arms to the Contras. When a Congressional subcommittee hears sworn testimony that someone with that kind of connection to the U.S. government has been involved in drug trafficking, what are they supposed to do, ignore it?
Incidentally, there are also allegations that Felix Rodriguez played a role in the "War on Terrorism" -- his role was allegedly to help Luis Posada Carriles escape from a Venezuelan prison. Carriles, another anti-Castro operative trained by the CIA, was doing time for his role in the bombing of a Cuban jetliner, in which 73 people were killed. This aid to the terrorist cause is part of the resume that entitles Felix Rodriguez to a White House Christmas card from George W. Bush every year. [7] I haven't yet had the chance to track down the details of that little episode, though. JamesMLane 00:37, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
When exactly was Kerry in Paris to meet with his communist overlords? It seems that there is abit of a myster as to how many times he went and the dates. TDC 21:40, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be some dispute in the references mentioned in regards to John Kerry's exact relationship to George W. Bush. An MSNBC article from Feb. 17, 2004 mentions the relationship as 16th cousins, three times removed. Yet, a reference from Family Forest CD-ROM from August 8, 2004, indicates the relationship as ninth cousins, twice removed. Both articles were referenced in the wikipedia article, which could cause some confusion. Perhaps both are related at two difference points in their lineages? Or possible there is some error here?
Dr. Cash 19:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't matter anyway, we all come from Adam and Eve
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I have made a few fact-based changes to the page. If you have an issue with them please discuss here before reverting. Thanks.
During the 2004 election, Mark Hyman, the host of the Point Comentary, made a claim that one of John Kerry's Purple Hearts was awarded for a minor scratch. He said that it was treated by antiseptic and a band-aid. Was that a reference to John Kerry's first Purple Heart?