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I believe the final sentence referring to educational "posters" should be removed entirely. Considering the statement in its original form and a web search it appears to be a superfluous personal anecdote. -- 24.2.154.16 00:39, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These beautifully illustrated posters are regarded as unique collector items by particle physicists and mathematicians in that they are full of mathematical equations which have correct "grammar" interposed with Transcendental Meditation.
This statement is a combination of POV with some assertions of (ahem) questionable veracity. I've spent plenty of time around physicists and mathematicians, and haven't heard of these posters. As to what "correct" grammar is, I have no idea.
However, it is generally acknowledged that the means by which he is attempting to demonstrate this connection are within the norms of the scientific method and that he has a competent background in particle physics, and as a result Hagelin's work within particle physics is well respected in the physics community.
I question the accuracy of this. The impression I've gotten from the few physicists I've talked with about Hagelin is that while his early work was respected, work he's done since he became a TM advocate is not. Perhaps I'm incorrect, but I don't want to leave this endorsement of his work unless someone can back it up. Isomorphic 23:44, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have some suggestions. Revise the entire section written by his proponents, claiming his works are some of the most cited - a look at the link for that shows it isn't true, leading merely to one single coauthored paper in a one year period. That whole section touting great achievements in research and pubs is totally exaggerated.
Michael Tompkins or Vinton Tompkins (Vinton D. Tompkins)? I've seen it given both ways. Esquizombi 10:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
The current article says " After that he tried to link particle physics to Transcendental Meditation and failed to publish a single paper in an established journal. His last accepted contribution to physics is from 1994" This first is actually completely backward, but I don't know an easy way to correct the misconception. At the least, it is more accurate to say that once he started running for political office, he stopped publishing scientific papers. As for the second sentence, his last contribution was published in 1995, not 1994.
To show why the statement is completely wrong, you can examine the timeline of his professional work:
1981 PhD in Physics; 1982 published research affiliated with CERN 1983 published research affiliated with SLAC 1984 -1995 published research affliated with Maharishi University of Management (FKA MIU).
Hagelin produced a stream of research in callaboration with Ellis and Nanopoulos, most of it AFTER he went to work at the TM university. In fact, according to Hagelin, HE was the one to start the revision of Flipped SU(5) which made the reputation of all three researchers. By Hagelin's account, he spent some time with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (MMY) in Switzerland discussing what a western Theory of Everything would need to include to be compatible with MMY's interpretation of Vedic cosmology. After their talk, Hagelin returned to MUM/MIU and started examining various western theories. Flipped SU(5) seemed to be the easiest to modiy along the lines that MMY suggested, and after the initial modifications, Hagelin realized that they made flipped SU(5) a much stronger scientific theory. He faxed the original modifications to Ellis at CERN who then contacted Nanopoulos, the original author of flipped SU(5), and the three produced a slew of papers on the subject for the next several years, starting with this one in 1987.
I can't say whether or not Hagelin's co-authors have "distanced themselves from him," but it certainly isn't simply because he attempted to connect TM theory to superstring theory because that attempt is what led to the fame of all three in the Theoretical PHysics world.
Additionally, both Ellis and Nanopoulos have published papers attempting to link Quantum Mechanics and consciousness, so this also suggests that they are not completely distainful of Hagelin's theories. Sparaig 06:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I read some recent press articles where the SU(5) Theory was discuss. Not that I completely understood the article, but I got the sense that there may be flaws with the theory and that experimental evidence did not support this theory. Can anyone comment on this? Bigweeboy 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Made the changes I said I would. Sparaig 16:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Reformatted timeline and corrected a few factual errors about who did what where in DC study. Sparaig 03:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The crime rate statistic cited was for yearly rate. The study examined the crime rate week-by-week for a specific period. You can't use the rate averaged over a year's period to refute a claim made about the weekly rate for an 8-week period. I have no idea if the claims made are valid, but you have to address the claims made in order to refute them. Sparaig 02:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
source: http://www.nhne.com/misc/hagelin.html
"John Hagelin did begin his career in physics with great promise. He now claims, however, to be the primary author of one of quantum physic's hottest theories. Superstring theory seeks to explain all physical laws in terms of one, neat system. Rather than being primary author, however, Hagelin was the second or third author on the foundational superstring papers, behind John Ellis, director of the eminently prestigious CERN, and others. (Authors on scholarly papers are traditionally listed in order of their contribution to the paper's contents.) And as you can read below, his co-authors and other noted scientists now distance themselves from -- and sometimes outright ridicule -- Hagelin's current theories linking Transcendental Meditation and the Maharishi's teachings with quantum physics. Meanwhile, his publications have gradually dwindled -- with no new publications since 1994."
"Hagelin & Quantum Theory: Holding on by a Superstring, ( http://www.trancenet.org/nlp/physics/superstring.shtml ) from Nature, Vol. 359, Christopher Anderson, Sept. 10, 1992. In this article from one of the most prestigious journals in science, physicist Hagelin is accused of distorting science to fit his guru's ideas. Hagelin's former colleagues in superstring theory disown his theories of consciousness and politics."
source: http://minet.org/TM-EX/Fall-92
"Not surprisingly, the linkage of SU(5) with TM infuriates his former collaborators. It is hard enough, they complain, to win scientific support for any type of unified theory. ``A lot of people [Hagelin] has collaborated with in the past are very upset about this, says Jorge Lopez, a Texas A&M University physicist. ``It's absolutely ludicrous to say that TM has anything to do with flipped SU(5)."
"John Ellis, director of CERN's theoretical physics dept., has asked Hagelin to stop mixing TM and SU(5). ``I was worried about guilt by association, Ellis explains. ``I was afraid that people might regard [Hagelin's assertions] as rather flaky, and that might rub off on the theory or on us."
Therefore, I removed the following unsourced paragraph:
"1986
I do not dispute that Hagelin wrote a paper about Superstringtheory, but I consider "make it more in-tune with Vedic philosophy, which coincidentally also made the theory more robust from a Western scientific perspective" TM-folklore. -- mkrohn 13:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The info is from a lecture Hagelin gave many years ago. I don't have a date for the lecture, but it is a reasonable paraphrase of what Hagelin claims. I'm putting it back in with the ole revert button, if I canfigure out how to do it, or with copy/paste if I can't. Sparaig 17:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW, your source's comment, "Rather than being primary author, however, Hagelin was the second or third author on the foundational superstring papers, behind John Ellis, director of the eminently prestigious CERN, and others. (Authors on scholarly papers are traditionally listed in order of their contribution to the paper's contents)" is quite wrong:
In scientific papers, traditional the principle authors are listed in alphabetical order, and minor contributors' names are tacked on at the end. If your source was correct, the fact that Dimitri Nanopolous is always listed AFTER Hagelin in the citation would mean that Hagelin was more important than Nanopolous. You can't have it both ways. Either Hagelin is in fact a more important author than Nanonpolous (as your source's comment would insist is the case), or Ellis, Hagelin and Nanonpolous are co-equal in their authorship of the 50 or so papers that have all of their names on them, ALWAYS in alphabetical order. Sparaig 17:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I had a look at the DC statistics for the heck of it, and I can't say they back up the claim of the text "In actuality, there was no decrease in crime that year, during which Washington DC recorded the third highest number of murders in its history". 1993, number of murders 454, 1994 number of murders 399, 1995 number of murders 360. And actually, that year DC had the 6th highest number of murders in its history. The text is rather dismissive and misleading for something that is not so clear after all.
the vitae says he published his last paper in 1995, and the little hostile blurb says he published his last paper in 1994. Additinally, he conected TM theory with FLipped SU(5) 10 years prior to his last publication, so the little hostile blurb is obviously wrong ther also, and yet people persist in keeping it in... Sparaig 10:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the claim that the Ig Nobel awards are "for genuine achievements"; they gave a prize to Social Text for the Sokal Affair, so this is clearly not true. I think the wikilink to the Ig Nobel article alone is enough to clarify what the prize is. -- Craig Stuntz 19:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
specific offending lines: the first in bold - most 3rd party sources point to this episode as a hoax, you'd think there would be some dispute concerning what the effects of this if any there were, which should reflect here- not a whole hearted adulation of some supposed achievement; this makes it sound like he did something great and was awarded a prize, where as the Ig-Nobel prize is obviously a joke, or the antithesis of the nobel prize (ie. razzi:oscar, etc). And the second line is a bit more transparent. None of this is backed up at all, the only supporting link here is to his website, I suggest that the bulk of this be removed and it reflect the actual nature of the Ig-Nobel prize, and be relevant. Anyone agree? oZwald
Do we really need the two fact links in the article? -- Richrobison 23:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
As I already said, Hagelin made the claim about how and why and when he made the initial revision to Flipped SU(5) in a lecture he gave 20 years ago. I saw the lecture. I have it on videotape. - Sparaig 07:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to the cleanup request, I have rearranged the existing material in the lead and have added some material from other parts of the article to put this lead more in line with model Wikipedia biographical articles on living academics. Because this action does not add material not already included or referenced in the article, it seemed appropriate to go ahead and substitute it for the previous lead. ChemistryProf 04:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Continuing with the clean-up of this article, I have rearranged the information previously included in this section to reduce redundancy and to make it more readable. I also have corrected some misinformation concerning the founding of the NLP in the US. (The source material for the new information is in delivery and will be cited and referenced when the detailed source information is in hand.) Some other source information is still needed. ChemistryProf 20:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I realize these are judgment calls on my part. ( olive 19:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
It is evident that this award was a great mistake and therefore gives a misleading impression. The selection criterion for the Ig Nobel Prize is "achievements that cannot or should not be reproduced" ( What is Ig). However, the research finding that rendered Hagelin the price has been reproduced (replicated) in dozens of peer reviewed studies published in leading scientific papers. A great strength of this research is that it is based on public data that cannot be faked. Moreover, the study was supervised by a 27 member group from Washington DC, including leading scientists, representatives of the Police and of the Mayors office. This independent group confirmed that the research was correctly made in every possible way. The finding was that a group of 4000 practitioners of the advanced Transcendental Meditation-based technique, TM-Sidhis, caused a 24% drop in criminality in Washington DC during 6 weeks. The probability that the effect was due to chance was 2 on 1 billion (p<0,000000002). For a summary, see Washington demostration project. For a summary of other research confirming this so called "Maharishi effect", see Research on the Maharishi effect. Actually few if any other sociological phenomena have been confirmed so strongly. -- Võitkutõde 06:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has added a reference to Park's criticism of the DC study. It might be a good idea to balance that with the rebuttal of Park's criticism that also appeared in the Skeptical Inquirer. However, we then face the extended point-counterpoint that already exists in the article on the TM-Sidhi program. What to do? Since this article is about Hagelin and not the DC study, maybe we should simply direct readers to the TM-Sidhi article and include a summary comment. TimidGuy 11:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I really like the material you added. Good work. I think that as soon as we've finished replacing the CV material, then we can move the cleanup tag at the top that Philosophus added. TimidGuy 11:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? "Although noted as an award that can’t or shouldn’t be replicated, Hagelin’s study was in fact a replication of several such studies, suggesting that the study did not meet the criteria for the award." What studies did it replicate, or what studies replicated it? The citation that follows links to a page that doesn't even mention the study, or Hagelin. Marcello09 23:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
In did remove the birth date again from this article since the Wikipedia guidelines suggest not giving this kind of info because of the amount of identity fraud these days. We do use Hagelin's full name in the Early life so it seems redundant in the intro, but its your call. I'd like to leave out the birth date though, as that only seems fair to Hagelin himself. ( olive 13:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
Olive - I have noticed a lot of the positive contributions you have made to various wiki articles and am worried that this may sound like I am being "difficult but :-)
All, "real" encyclopedic biographical entry's contain the subjects date of Birth - and indeed death when relevant. Removing it on the basis of identity theft - although well intended - is simply illogical and would go against the criteria of normal encyclopedic enters. Someone as well known as Haglins DOB is is easily found anyway - see the latest edition of Who's Who" for example. Indeed, I believe it is even found on his own website. thoughts? :-) Crowleys Aunt 00:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Reading this I can't help but feel that it doesn't give enough analysis to the criticisms made by the scientific community regarding Hagelin "merging" his theories of consciousness - especially those related to Vedic and perhaps more specifically TM - with Flipped SU(5) Superstring Theory.
Lets be honest, it has been noted elsewhere that many of his former peers have distanced themselves not only from his "merging" of these theories but also, in some respects, from Hagelin himself due to this. It is frustrating for me to see him presented at various TM meetings (see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2200642823213458442&q=david+lynch+duration%3Along&total=35&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 For example) which make much of his, qualifications, research and rewards in physics and for him to then seem to use this "authority" while discussing what are essentially religious views on the nature of consciousness. It's this sort of thing that gives what seems like, "scientific" authority to the pseudoscience and general misuse of Quantum physics in "documentaries such as "What the bleep".
I think this is not helped by the exclusion of criticisms of the DC study.
Lets be honest, there will be people perhaps new to Haglin who on seeing some of his "claims" will look to WIKI for criticisms. Surely some discussion of these criticisms should be included in some form? Thoughts? Crowleys Aunt 01:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for feedback Timid. Firstly, I like your notion of adding "controversial" to the DC study - this seems to not damge it's importance while clarifying the difficulties attached to it.
Regarding criticisms of his "seminal papers" I shall look but I think that it should be mentioned that this have never been published in a peer reviewed publication. They have both appeared in something that sounds like it is - "Journal of Modern Science and Vedic Science" until you realize that this is published by MUM which is the University of the religion known as TM.( http://www.mum.edu/) In the publications own overview it states:
"It draws upon a new technology for investigating the Unified Field that combines the approaches of modern science and Vedic Science as brought to light by Maharishi Mahesh. It continues The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs, by drawing upon the most powerful level of Nature, offer the means for unfolding enlightenment in individual life, and to create balance, peace, and coherence in the world as well as unprecedented progress and prosperity for mankind. Over six hundred scientific studies have validated the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs to be effective, practical means of systematically transforming the quality of human life." Yogi.(" http://www.mum.edu/msvs/)
Hardly a Scientific publication in the traditional sense. I should add that I may seem as if I am "negative" toward TM. This is not the case, trust me I'm a connoisseur of "kooky" facts. However, I am concerned when religions miss-use science - or scientific "authority" to support their religious views when this is clearly not the case ( I have the same difficulties with the miss-use of intelligent design and creationism in certain Christan thought for example). I just feel that at the moment, within the context of this Bio, his collaborative - and fine work in "normal", "recognized" science - ie string theory - is not separated from the highly religiously influenced - and unpeer reviewed work- to combine consciousness with some unified field theory - something realistically unlikely to ever be fully proven I would suspect. The two are very different, the first existing within physics and the second - if belonging to any "science - perhaps psychology.
Does that make any sense what-so-ever?
21:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC) Crowleys Aunt
Hi timid. Thanks for your response - and indeed words of encouragement :-) I have, to be honest, decided to leave any further discussion on this subject. I think i should just keep out of theological discussions when they relate to one specific religion. However, thank you all for your time and good luck. And may your god/gods go with you
14:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Crowleys Aunt
The citation for this states this was true between 1983-84, the reference itself is dated 1985. This remark should either be removed, edited to stated that this was during 1 year 22 years ago, or updated with a new citation to prove its continued validity? Crowleys Aunt 01:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
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help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite web}}
: URL–wikilink conflict (
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—Preceding unsigned comment added by TimidGuy ( talk • contribs) 15:54, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
Sounds better to me Timid.At the moment it reads like he his cited more then Einstein, Planck, Bohr, or Schrödinger :-) Crowleys Aunt 21:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I did make two edits but very strange, but the first never showed up either here or in the article .... At any rate have removed lines because they are not referenced and as they are, are POV. Lines are here until referenced and discussed .
Ig Nobel prizes are often awarded simply for the perceived entertainment value of unusually bizarre research.
second edit. Thanks for noting the award was a Peace award. Hagelin's award was given for the conclusions to a research study so I see no problem with points referring to that . The added information noting that the research was one of many, a replication of other such studies, and therefore not in line with the award statement concerning awards that "can't or should not be replicated" is pertinent information. I am reminded that in biographies of living person an editor should be scrupulous in adding any information that throws a less than positive light on the person written about. Adding this statement gives context to the Ig Noble award statements.( olive 15:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC))
Ok. The first change was made based on my interpretation of WP:CBALL. Who knows if he's going to win a Nobel? The second one is a subtle point. In my view, the link with the 50 studies is an attempt to try to offset a possible negative connotation associated with the Ig Nobel prize, and as such is POV. Also, the link went to a Maharishi University website, and docomented papers about the so-called Maharishi Effect. That should raise some alarm bells. Rracecarr 20:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, referenced or not, it seems a little unencylopedic (if that's a word) to speculate on a future Nobel Prize. Also, the reference is from 1991. Surely there's a more current reference to decide who is or is not likely to win a Nobel. Particularly since the sentence was written in the present tense: ...theory IS considered one of the more successful unified field theories or “theories of everything,” evoking mention of a possible Nobel Prize.
Yeah, my main point with the 50 experiments thing was not the website but the fact that the very fact that the sentence is there at all reads like a defense of the research. The section is about awards (partly). I don't buy the "show both sides" argument at all. No one seems to think it's necessary to supplement information about the Kilby Award with the "other side" i.e. criticisms of that research. Why is it suddenly necessary to defend an experiment because it got an award that isn't always associated with scientific rigor? Rracecarr 20:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think a reworded Nobel part could go back in. Something more specific than "evoking mention". Personally, given the conservatism of the physics Nobel committee, I think a Nobel Prize is extremely unlikely, but I won't try to keep the sentence out on the basis of that opinion.
We can take out the sentence about "cannot or should not be repeated". But I still can't see defending the research. Just say it won an Ig Nobel, and leave the readers to draw their own conclusions (most of them probably don't associate it with "cannot be repeated"--most of them probably haven't even heard of it). That is the only way I can see to keep it NPOV. If anything, that is kind of POV the other way, because it really doesn't make it clear at all that the Ig Nobel is often used as a criticism or to make fun of its recipient. If you like the 50 other experiments thing, I would say it belongs in the paragraph above, which discusses the experiment in question. Rracecarr 20:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree that parts of the article may have been a bit effusive and that the recent rewrite has improved it. I feel like it's now more encyclopedic in style -- just presents the facts. I wanted to alert any interested editors who may have seen my participation in yesterday's edit warring that I think the result is an improvement. TimidGuy 11:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I had personally wondered about the significance of the Kilby Award, especially after reading something on a critic site. Turns out, what I read was totally false (no surprise). For future reference, am putting some info here about the award that's from the Kilby web site [5]:
The Kilby Awards Jury is chaired by Sir Brian Heap, Master of St. Edmund's College at Cambridge University. A distinguished committee meets annually with Sir Brian Heap to consider candidates submitted by nominators throughout the United States and abroad. These Laureates are chosen from international candidates and celebrated in an Awards Ceremony.
The Kilby Awards Foundation annually recognizes five to seven individuals who make extraordinary contributions to society through science, technology, innovation, invention and education.
Mr. Kilby received the Nobel Prize from His Majesty the King of Sweden. The Founders and Trustees are grateful to Jack St. Clair Kilby, who graciously allowed the founders to name this international awards program in his honor and thus to commemorate the power of one individual to make a significant impact...
Young Innovator nominees are individuals under 40 whose past accomplishments and future potential indicate exceptional promise. They are persons for whom early recognition might mean significant and timely freedom and support for their maturing talents, enabling them to make even greater contributions in the future. Young Innovator candidates might be very young or very close to the senior laureate age.
Dallas, Texas - In 1999, The Kilby International Awards have been selected as one of the world's most distinguished awards and cited in the official roster of The International Congress of Distinguished Awards, which includes 116 awards selected from a five year study of 26,400 awards worldwide.
Seems impressive. TimidGuy 15:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Here we are again. Seem to show up at the same time. Where are you getting your info? Here's a paper that was published in 1996 [6]. That's just one that i happen to know about that's after the date of 1995. TimidGuy 15:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I just went through the 90-odd listings on Google Scholar with him as an author, and that PRL 1996 is the most recent physics listing that shows up. Doesn't prove anything though, and I don't think it's important to include the date of the last publication. I do think it's informative to indicate that if he's still doing physics, he's certainly not as active as he was in the 80's. But I suppose that's hinted at in the article already. You seem to be implying that that you think I haven't read the consciousness papers. Well, you're right (there would be no point--garbage or not, it would be all Greek to me). But I still think concerns expressed by his former collaborators (e.g. Ellis) may have a place in the article (those are the sources to which I was referring--statements made by physicists, not published critiques). A "Controversy" section could be written in a neutral tone--no implied judgment on the validity of the ideas on consciousness, just an indication that they haven't met with wide acceptance (some of Einstein's ideas didn't either, for a while). Rracecarr 19:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's discuss this. As far as I understand it, this is not a critique of Hagelin's theory linking consciousness and the unified field. And in fact, I believe it's not directly related to Hagelin. It's a critique of a study that appeared in Yale University's Journal of Conflict Resolution. Hagelin wasn't involved in this study and wasn't a coauthor. It would be appropriate, as I've noted in other contexts, to include this study and the critique (and the forthcoming rebuttal) in the article on the TM-Sidhi program. TimidGuy 17:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Darn. Seems like I'm always messing with your work, Rracecarr. Sorry about that. I'm putting the new addition here until we can discuss. Hope that's okay. It just doesn't seem accurate.
==Controversy== Hagelin's linkage of quantum mechanics and unified field theory with consciousness and, particularly, with Transcendental Meditation, has met with some skepticism among scientists. [1]
Do you have a copy of the article? TimidGuy 17:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks much, Rracecarr. Good job. This is very helpful. It looks as if they're accurately characterizing his arguments. I haven't seen his papers. The forthcoming rebuttal tests their alternate explanations of the observed phenomenon against the data and shows that they don't explain it. And it makes a case against their philosophical criticism of this particular heterodox theory. But in skimming it, I don't recall that it rebuts these arguments against Hagelin. Though I guess since ME is a cornerstone, and the authors rebut Fales and Markovsky's critique of the JCR study, then that may be relevant once the rebuttal is published.
Seems like we need to consider WP:UNDUE. Is it a matter of undue weight to take a single study and make in an entire section and label it controversy? Why wouldn't we integrate that into the research section? Also, we need to be cautious about ad populum statements, which Wikipedia cautions against using. TimidGuy 15:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure, no problem if you're able to locate sources -- physicists not accepting Hagelin's ideas.
By the way, it's not clear in what sense these are Hagelin's ideas. The Maharishi Effect isn't his idea but a phenomenon that's been researched over several decades. The connection between consciousness and the unified field isn't his idea, but is certainly one that he's tried to articulate more than anyone else. TimidGuy 15:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This inclusion based on a Reuters article seems to contain several inaccuracies.... the newspaper article itself as source is inaccurate. John Hagelin is not the head of this course or group, to my knowledge, although he has commented on it, and could be considered an integral part of it.In actual fact Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is probably considered to be head of the course, and he has addressed the participants on many occasions. This is not an organization but simply a course. The organization which the article seems to indicate is the IAA as noted in the newspaper does not own two facilities, ....As I mentioned this isn't an organization and these course participants don't own anything. The course is being held on the MUM campus, and course participants may be staying at the nearby Vedic city. To my knowledge John Hagelin isn't doing any kind of research on the "group" or "Maharishi effect" of this course.
Although, I did correct the material I'm not convinced this information should be included in this article There is no information that indicates Hagelin is researching this group effect at this time,and the Reuter article is somewhat inaccurate making the inclusion inaccurate. I think I'll wait a day or so for comments but then probably delete as not useful material.( olive 20:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC))
Reuters is a highly respected news service but alas they got some of this wrong.My tendency is to think well if they got some wrong how do we know if they didn't get more of it wrong. No matter.... What if I find out if Hagelin is doing research on the effects of this course .... If he is we can use this under the research section if not we can still use the info as a comment and find a place where it fits somewhere in the article. ( olive 23:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC))
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I believe the final sentence referring to educational "posters" should be removed entirely. Considering the statement in its original form and a web search it appears to be a superfluous personal anecdote. -- 24.2.154.16 00:39, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These beautifully illustrated posters are regarded as unique collector items by particle physicists and mathematicians in that they are full of mathematical equations which have correct "grammar" interposed with Transcendental Meditation.
This statement is a combination of POV with some assertions of (ahem) questionable veracity. I've spent plenty of time around physicists and mathematicians, and haven't heard of these posters. As to what "correct" grammar is, I have no idea.
However, it is generally acknowledged that the means by which he is attempting to demonstrate this connection are within the norms of the scientific method and that he has a competent background in particle physics, and as a result Hagelin's work within particle physics is well respected in the physics community.
I question the accuracy of this. The impression I've gotten from the few physicists I've talked with about Hagelin is that while his early work was respected, work he's done since he became a TM advocate is not. Perhaps I'm incorrect, but I don't want to leave this endorsement of his work unless someone can back it up. Isomorphic 23:44, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have some suggestions. Revise the entire section written by his proponents, claiming his works are some of the most cited - a look at the link for that shows it isn't true, leading merely to one single coauthored paper in a one year period. That whole section touting great achievements in research and pubs is totally exaggerated.
Michael Tompkins or Vinton Tompkins (Vinton D. Tompkins)? I've seen it given both ways. Esquizombi 10:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
The current article says " After that he tried to link particle physics to Transcendental Meditation and failed to publish a single paper in an established journal. His last accepted contribution to physics is from 1994" This first is actually completely backward, but I don't know an easy way to correct the misconception. At the least, it is more accurate to say that once he started running for political office, he stopped publishing scientific papers. As for the second sentence, his last contribution was published in 1995, not 1994.
To show why the statement is completely wrong, you can examine the timeline of his professional work:
1981 PhD in Physics; 1982 published research affiliated with CERN 1983 published research affiliated with SLAC 1984 -1995 published research affliated with Maharishi University of Management (FKA MIU).
Hagelin produced a stream of research in callaboration with Ellis and Nanopoulos, most of it AFTER he went to work at the TM university. In fact, according to Hagelin, HE was the one to start the revision of Flipped SU(5) which made the reputation of all three researchers. By Hagelin's account, he spent some time with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (MMY) in Switzerland discussing what a western Theory of Everything would need to include to be compatible with MMY's interpretation of Vedic cosmology. After their talk, Hagelin returned to MUM/MIU and started examining various western theories. Flipped SU(5) seemed to be the easiest to modiy along the lines that MMY suggested, and after the initial modifications, Hagelin realized that they made flipped SU(5) a much stronger scientific theory. He faxed the original modifications to Ellis at CERN who then contacted Nanopoulos, the original author of flipped SU(5), and the three produced a slew of papers on the subject for the next several years, starting with this one in 1987.
I can't say whether or not Hagelin's co-authors have "distanced themselves from him," but it certainly isn't simply because he attempted to connect TM theory to superstring theory because that attempt is what led to the fame of all three in the Theoretical PHysics world.
Additionally, both Ellis and Nanopoulos have published papers attempting to link Quantum Mechanics and consciousness, so this also suggests that they are not completely distainful of Hagelin's theories. Sparaig 06:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I read some recent press articles where the SU(5) Theory was discuss. Not that I completely understood the article, but I got the sense that there may be flaws with the theory and that experimental evidence did not support this theory. Can anyone comment on this? Bigweeboy 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Made the changes I said I would. Sparaig 16:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Reformatted timeline and corrected a few factual errors about who did what where in DC study. Sparaig 03:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The crime rate statistic cited was for yearly rate. The study examined the crime rate week-by-week for a specific period. You can't use the rate averaged over a year's period to refute a claim made about the weekly rate for an 8-week period. I have no idea if the claims made are valid, but you have to address the claims made in order to refute them. Sparaig 02:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
source: http://www.nhne.com/misc/hagelin.html
"John Hagelin did begin his career in physics with great promise. He now claims, however, to be the primary author of one of quantum physic's hottest theories. Superstring theory seeks to explain all physical laws in terms of one, neat system. Rather than being primary author, however, Hagelin was the second or third author on the foundational superstring papers, behind John Ellis, director of the eminently prestigious CERN, and others. (Authors on scholarly papers are traditionally listed in order of their contribution to the paper's contents.) And as you can read below, his co-authors and other noted scientists now distance themselves from -- and sometimes outright ridicule -- Hagelin's current theories linking Transcendental Meditation and the Maharishi's teachings with quantum physics. Meanwhile, his publications have gradually dwindled -- with no new publications since 1994."
"Hagelin & Quantum Theory: Holding on by a Superstring, ( http://www.trancenet.org/nlp/physics/superstring.shtml ) from Nature, Vol. 359, Christopher Anderson, Sept. 10, 1992. In this article from one of the most prestigious journals in science, physicist Hagelin is accused of distorting science to fit his guru's ideas. Hagelin's former colleagues in superstring theory disown his theories of consciousness and politics."
source: http://minet.org/TM-EX/Fall-92
"Not surprisingly, the linkage of SU(5) with TM infuriates his former collaborators. It is hard enough, they complain, to win scientific support for any type of unified theory. ``A lot of people [Hagelin] has collaborated with in the past are very upset about this, says Jorge Lopez, a Texas A&M University physicist. ``It's absolutely ludicrous to say that TM has anything to do with flipped SU(5)."
"John Ellis, director of CERN's theoretical physics dept., has asked Hagelin to stop mixing TM and SU(5). ``I was worried about guilt by association, Ellis explains. ``I was afraid that people might regard [Hagelin's assertions] as rather flaky, and that might rub off on the theory or on us."
Therefore, I removed the following unsourced paragraph:
"1986
I do not dispute that Hagelin wrote a paper about Superstringtheory, but I consider "make it more in-tune with Vedic philosophy, which coincidentally also made the theory more robust from a Western scientific perspective" TM-folklore. -- mkrohn 13:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The info is from a lecture Hagelin gave many years ago. I don't have a date for the lecture, but it is a reasonable paraphrase of what Hagelin claims. I'm putting it back in with the ole revert button, if I canfigure out how to do it, or with copy/paste if I can't. Sparaig 17:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW, your source's comment, "Rather than being primary author, however, Hagelin was the second or third author on the foundational superstring papers, behind John Ellis, director of the eminently prestigious CERN, and others. (Authors on scholarly papers are traditionally listed in order of their contribution to the paper's contents)" is quite wrong:
In scientific papers, traditional the principle authors are listed in alphabetical order, and minor contributors' names are tacked on at the end. If your source was correct, the fact that Dimitri Nanopolous is always listed AFTER Hagelin in the citation would mean that Hagelin was more important than Nanopolous. You can't have it both ways. Either Hagelin is in fact a more important author than Nanonpolous (as your source's comment would insist is the case), or Ellis, Hagelin and Nanonpolous are co-equal in their authorship of the 50 or so papers that have all of their names on them, ALWAYS in alphabetical order. Sparaig 17:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I had a look at the DC statistics for the heck of it, and I can't say they back up the claim of the text "In actuality, there was no decrease in crime that year, during which Washington DC recorded the third highest number of murders in its history". 1993, number of murders 454, 1994 number of murders 399, 1995 number of murders 360. And actually, that year DC had the 6th highest number of murders in its history. The text is rather dismissive and misleading for something that is not so clear after all.
the vitae says he published his last paper in 1995, and the little hostile blurb says he published his last paper in 1994. Additinally, he conected TM theory with FLipped SU(5) 10 years prior to his last publication, so the little hostile blurb is obviously wrong ther also, and yet people persist in keeping it in... Sparaig 10:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the claim that the Ig Nobel awards are "for genuine achievements"; they gave a prize to Social Text for the Sokal Affair, so this is clearly not true. I think the wikilink to the Ig Nobel article alone is enough to clarify what the prize is. -- Craig Stuntz 19:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
specific offending lines: the first in bold - most 3rd party sources point to this episode as a hoax, you'd think there would be some dispute concerning what the effects of this if any there were, which should reflect here- not a whole hearted adulation of some supposed achievement; this makes it sound like he did something great and was awarded a prize, where as the Ig-Nobel prize is obviously a joke, or the antithesis of the nobel prize (ie. razzi:oscar, etc). And the second line is a bit more transparent. None of this is backed up at all, the only supporting link here is to his website, I suggest that the bulk of this be removed and it reflect the actual nature of the Ig-Nobel prize, and be relevant. Anyone agree? oZwald
Do we really need the two fact links in the article? -- Richrobison 23:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
As I already said, Hagelin made the claim about how and why and when he made the initial revision to Flipped SU(5) in a lecture he gave 20 years ago. I saw the lecture. I have it on videotape. - Sparaig 07:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to the cleanup request, I have rearranged the existing material in the lead and have added some material from other parts of the article to put this lead more in line with model Wikipedia biographical articles on living academics. Because this action does not add material not already included or referenced in the article, it seemed appropriate to go ahead and substitute it for the previous lead. ChemistryProf 04:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Continuing with the clean-up of this article, I have rearranged the information previously included in this section to reduce redundancy and to make it more readable. I also have corrected some misinformation concerning the founding of the NLP in the US. (The source material for the new information is in delivery and will be cited and referenced when the detailed source information is in hand.) Some other source information is still needed. ChemistryProf 20:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I realize these are judgment calls on my part. ( olive 19:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
It is evident that this award was a great mistake and therefore gives a misleading impression. The selection criterion for the Ig Nobel Prize is "achievements that cannot or should not be reproduced" ( What is Ig). However, the research finding that rendered Hagelin the price has been reproduced (replicated) in dozens of peer reviewed studies published in leading scientific papers. A great strength of this research is that it is based on public data that cannot be faked. Moreover, the study was supervised by a 27 member group from Washington DC, including leading scientists, representatives of the Police and of the Mayors office. This independent group confirmed that the research was correctly made in every possible way. The finding was that a group of 4000 practitioners of the advanced Transcendental Meditation-based technique, TM-Sidhis, caused a 24% drop in criminality in Washington DC during 6 weeks. The probability that the effect was due to chance was 2 on 1 billion (p<0,000000002). For a summary, see Washington demostration project. For a summary of other research confirming this so called "Maharishi effect", see Research on the Maharishi effect. Actually few if any other sociological phenomena have been confirmed so strongly. -- Võitkutõde 06:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has added a reference to Park's criticism of the DC study. It might be a good idea to balance that with the rebuttal of Park's criticism that also appeared in the Skeptical Inquirer. However, we then face the extended point-counterpoint that already exists in the article on the TM-Sidhi program. What to do? Since this article is about Hagelin and not the DC study, maybe we should simply direct readers to the TM-Sidhi article and include a summary comment. TimidGuy 11:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I really like the material you added. Good work. I think that as soon as we've finished replacing the CV material, then we can move the cleanup tag at the top that Philosophus added. TimidGuy 11:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? "Although noted as an award that can’t or shouldn’t be replicated, Hagelin’s study was in fact a replication of several such studies, suggesting that the study did not meet the criteria for the award." What studies did it replicate, or what studies replicated it? The citation that follows links to a page that doesn't even mention the study, or Hagelin. Marcello09 23:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
In did remove the birth date again from this article since the Wikipedia guidelines suggest not giving this kind of info because of the amount of identity fraud these days. We do use Hagelin's full name in the Early life so it seems redundant in the intro, but its your call. I'd like to leave out the birth date though, as that only seems fair to Hagelin himself. ( olive 13:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
Olive - I have noticed a lot of the positive contributions you have made to various wiki articles and am worried that this may sound like I am being "difficult but :-)
All, "real" encyclopedic biographical entry's contain the subjects date of Birth - and indeed death when relevant. Removing it on the basis of identity theft - although well intended - is simply illogical and would go against the criteria of normal encyclopedic enters. Someone as well known as Haglins DOB is is easily found anyway - see the latest edition of Who's Who" for example. Indeed, I believe it is even found on his own website. thoughts? :-) Crowleys Aunt 00:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Reading this I can't help but feel that it doesn't give enough analysis to the criticisms made by the scientific community regarding Hagelin "merging" his theories of consciousness - especially those related to Vedic and perhaps more specifically TM - with Flipped SU(5) Superstring Theory.
Lets be honest, it has been noted elsewhere that many of his former peers have distanced themselves not only from his "merging" of these theories but also, in some respects, from Hagelin himself due to this. It is frustrating for me to see him presented at various TM meetings (see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2200642823213458442&q=david+lynch+duration%3Along&total=35&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 For example) which make much of his, qualifications, research and rewards in physics and for him to then seem to use this "authority" while discussing what are essentially religious views on the nature of consciousness. It's this sort of thing that gives what seems like, "scientific" authority to the pseudoscience and general misuse of Quantum physics in "documentaries such as "What the bleep".
I think this is not helped by the exclusion of criticisms of the DC study.
Lets be honest, there will be people perhaps new to Haglin who on seeing some of his "claims" will look to WIKI for criticisms. Surely some discussion of these criticisms should be included in some form? Thoughts? Crowleys Aunt 01:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for feedback Timid. Firstly, I like your notion of adding "controversial" to the DC study - this seems to not damge it's importance while clarifying the difficulties attached to it.
Regarding criticisms of his "seminal papers" I shall look but I think that it should be mentioned that this have never been published in a peer reviewed publication. They have both appeared in something that sounds like it is - "Journal of Modern Science and Vedic Science" until you realize that this is published by MUM which is the University of the religion known as TM.( http://www.mum.edu/) In the publications own overview it states:
"It draws upon a new technology for investigating the Unified Field that combines the approaches of modern science and Vedic Science as brought to light by Maharishi Mahesh. It continues The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs, by drawing upon the most powerful level of Nature, offer the means for unfolding enlightenment in individual life, and to create balance, peace, and coherence in the world as well as unprecedented progress and prosperity for mankind. Over six hundred scientific studies have validated the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs to be effective, practical means of systematically transforming the quality of human life." Yogi.(" http://www.mum.edu/msvs/)
Hardly a Scientific publication in the traditional sense. I should add that I may seem as if I am "negative" toward TM. This is not the case, trust me I'm a connoisseur of "kooky" facts. However, I am concerned when religions miss-use science - or scientific "authority" to support their religious views when this is clearly not the case ( I have the same difficulties with the miss-use of intelligent design and creationism in certain Christan thought for example). I just feel that at the moment, within the context of this Bio, his collaborative - and fine work in "normal", "recognized" science - ie string theory - is not separated from the highly religiously influenced - and unpeer reviewed work- to combine consciousness with some unified field theory - something realistically unlikely to ever be fully proven I would suspect. The two are very different, the first existing within physics and the second - if belonging to any "science - perhaps psychology.
Does that make any sense what-so-ever?
21:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC) Crowleys Aunt
Hi timid. Thanks for your response - and indeed words of encouragement :-) I have, to be honest, decided to leave any further discussion on this subject. I think i should just keep out of theological discussions when they relate to one specific religion. However, thank you all for your time and good luck. And may your god/gods go with you
14:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Crowleys Aunt
The citation for this states this was true between 1983-84, the reference itself is dated 1985. This remark should either be removed, edited to stated that this was during 1 year 22 years ago, or updated with a new citation to prove its continued validity? Crowleys Aunt 01:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
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ignored (|author=
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cite web}}
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—Preceding unsigned comment added by TimidGuy ( talk • contribs) 15:54, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
Sounds better to me Timid.At the moment it reads like he his cited more then Einstein, Planck, Bohr, or Schrödinger :-) Crowleys Aunt 21:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I did make two edits but very strange, but the first never showed up either here or in the article .... At any rate have removed lines because they are not referenced and as they are, are POV. Lines are here until referenced and discussed .
Ig Nobel prizes are often awarded simply for the perceived entertainment value of unusually bizarre research.
second edit. Thanks for noting the award was a Peace award. Hagelin's award was given for the conclusions to a research study so I see no problem with points referring to that . The added information noting that the research was one of many, a replication of other such studies, and therefore not in line with the award statement concerning awards that "can't or should not be replicated" is pertinent information. I am reminded that in biographies of living person an editor should be scrupulous in adding any information that throws a less than positive light on the person written about. Adding this statement gives context to the Ig Noble award statements.( olive 15:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC))
Ok. The first change was made based on my interpretation of WP:CBALL. Who knows if he's going to win a Nobel? The second one is a subtle point. In my view, the link with the 50 studies is an attempt to try to offset a possible negative connotation associated with the Ig Nobel prize, and as such is POV. Also, the link went to a Maharishi University website, and docomented papers about the so-called Maharishi Effect. That should raise some alarm bells. Rracecarr 20:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, referenced or not, it seems a little unencylopedic (if that's a word) to speculate on a future Nobel Prize. Also, the reference is from 1991. Surely there's a more current reference to decide who is or is not likely to win a Nobel. Particularly since the sentence was written in the present tense: ...theory IS considered one of the more successful unified field theories or “theories of everything,” evoking mention of a possible Nobel Prize.
Yeah, my main point with the 50 experiments thing was not the website but the fact that the very fact that the sentence is there at all reads like a defense of the research. The section is about awards (partly). I don't buy the "show both sides" argument at all. No one seems to think it's necessary to supplement information about the Kilby Award with the "other side" i.e. criticisms of that research. Why is it suddenly necessary to defend an experiment because it got an award that isn't always associated with scientific rigor? Rracecarr 20:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think a reworded Nobel part could go back in. Something more specific than "evoking mention". Personally, given the conservatism of the physics Nobel committee, I think a Nobel Prize is extremely unlikely, but I won't try to keep the sentence out on the basis of that opinion.
We can take out the sentence about "cannot or should not be repeated". But I still can't see defending the research. Just say it won an Ig Nobel, and leave the readers to draw their own conclusions (most of them probably don't associate it with "cannot be repeated"--most of them probably haven't even heard of it). That is the only way I can see to keep it NPOV. If anything, that is kind of POV the other way, because it really doesn't make it clear at all that the Ig Nobel is often used as a criticism or to make fun of its recipient. If you like the 50 other experiments thing, I would say it belongs in the paragraph above, which discusses the experiment in question. Rracecarr 20:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree that parts of the article may have been a bit effusive and that the recent rewrite has improved it. I feel like it's now more encyclopedic in style -- just presents the facts. I wanted to alert any interested editors who may have seen my participation in yesterday's edit warring that I think the result is an improvement. TimidGuy 11:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I had personally wondered about the significance of the Kilby Award, especially after reading something on a critic site. Turns out, what I read was totally false (no surprise). For future reference, am putting some info here about the award that's from the Kilby web site [5]:
The Kilby Awards Jury is chaired by Sir Brian Heap, Master of St. Edmund's College at Cambridge University. A distinguished committee meets annually with Sir Brian Heap to consider candidates submitted by nominators throughout the United States and abroad. These Laureates are chosen from international candidates and celebrated in an Awards Ceremony.
The Kilby Awards Foundation annually recognizes five to seven individuals who make extraordinary contributions to society through science, technology, innovation, invention and education.
Mr. Kilby received the Nobel Prize from His Majesty the King of Sweden. The Founders and Trustees are grateful to Jack St. Clair Kilby, who graciously allowed the founders to name this international awards program in his honor and thus to commemorate the power of one individual to make a significant impact...
Young Innovator nominees are individuals under 40 whose past accomplishments and future potential indicate exceptional promise. They are persons for whom early recognition might mean significant and timely freedom and support for their maturing talents, enabling them to make even greater contributions in the future. Young Innovator candidates might be very young or very close to the senior laureate age.
Dallas, Texas - In 1999, The Kilby International Awards have been selected as one of the world's most distinguished awards and cited in the official roster of The International Congress of Distinguished Awards, which includes 116 awards selected from a five year study of 26,400 awards worldwide.
Seems impressive. TimidGuy 15:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Here we are again. Seem to show up at the same time. Where are you getting your info? Here's a paper that was published in 1996 [6]. That's just one that i happen to know about that's after the date of 1995. TimidGuy 15:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I just went through the 90-odd listings on Google Scholar with him as an author, and that PRL 1996 is the most recent physics listing that shows up. Doesn't prove anything though, and I don't think it's important to include the date of the last publication. I do think it's informative to indicate that if he's still doing physics, he's certainly not as active as he was in the 80's. But I suppose that's hinted at in the article already. You seem to be implying that that you think I haven't read the consciousness papers. Well, you're right (there would be no point--garbage or not, it would be all Greek to me). But I still think concerns expressed by his former collaborators (e.g. Ellis) may have a place in the article (those are the sources to which I was referring--statements made by physicists, not published critiques). A "Controversy" section could be written in a neutral tone--no implied judgment on the validity of the ideas on consciousness, just an indication that they haven't met with wide acceptance (some of Einstein's ideas didn't either, for a while). Rracecarr 19:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's discuss this. As far as I understand it, this is not a critique of Hagelin's theory linking consciousness and the unified field. And in fact, I believe it's not directly related to Hagelin. It's a critique of a study that appeared in Yale University's Journal of Conflict Resolution. Hagelin wasn't involved in this study and wasn't a coauthor. It would be appropriate, as I've noted in other contexts, to include this study and the critique (and the forthcoming rebuttal) in the article on the TM-Sidhi program. TimidGuy 17:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Darn. Seems like I'm always messing with your work, Rracecarr. Sorry about that. I'm putting the new addition here until we can discuss. Hope that's okay. It just doesn't seem accurate.
==Controversy== Hagelin's linkage of quantum mechanics and unified field theory with consciousness and, particularly, with Transcendental Meditation, has met with some skepticism among scientists. [1]
Do you have a copy of the article? TimidGuy 17:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks much, Rracecarr. Good job. This is very helpful. It looks as if they're accurately characterizing his arguments. I haven't seen his papers. The forthcoming rebuttal tests their alternate explanations of the observed phenomenon against the data and shows that they don't explain it. And it makes a case against their philosophical criticism of this particular heterodox theory. But in skimming it, I don't recall that it rebuts these arguments against Hagelin. Though I guess since ME is a cornerstone, and the authors rebut Fales and Markovsky's critique of the JCR study, then that may be relevant once the rebuttal is published.
Seems like we need to consider WP:UNDUE. Is it a matter of undue weight to take a single study and make in an entire section and label it controversy? Why wouldn't we integrate that into the research section? Also, we need to be cautious about ad populum statements, which Wikipedia cautions against using. TimidGuy 15:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure, no problem if you're able to locate sources -- physicists not accepting Hagelin's ideas.
By the way, it's not clear in what sense these are Hagelin's ideas. The Maharishi Effect isn't his idea but a phenomenon that's been researched over several decades. The connection between consciousness and the unified field isn't his idea, but is certainly one that he's tried to articulate more than anyone else. TimidGuy 15:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This inclusion based on a Reuters article seems to contain several inaccuracies.... the newspaper article itself as source is inaccurate. John Hagelin is not the head of this course or group, to my knowledge, although he has commented on it, and could be considered an integral part of it.In actual fact Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is probably considered to be head of the course, and he has addressed the participants on many occasions. This is not an organization but simply a course. The organization which the article seems to indicate is the IAA as noted in the newspaper does not own two facilities, ....As I mentioned this isn't an organization and these course participants don't own anything. The course is being held on the MUM campus, and course participants may be staying at the nearby Vedic city. To my knowledge John Hagelin isn't doing any kind of research on the "group" or "Maharishi effect" of this course.
Although, I did correct the material I'm not convinced this information should be included in this article There is no information that indicates Hagelin is researching this group effect at this time,and the Reuter article is somewhat inaccurate making the inclusion inaccurate. I think I'll wait a day or so for comments but then probably delete as not useful material.( olive 20:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC))
Reuters is a highly respected news service but alas they got some of this wrong.My tendency is to think well if they got some wrong how do we know if they didn't get more of it wrong. No matter.... What if I find out if Hagelin is doing research on the effects of this course .... If he is we can use this under the research section if not we can still use the info as a comment and find a place where it fits somewhere in the article. ( olive 23:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC))