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Is Fremont's name really spelled with an accent mark? [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 00:27, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
The article currently says that he was the first Presidential candidate to run on a platform of opposition to slavery. But the free soil party and other minor parties had already run before him Furthermore he was only opposed to the expansion of slavery.-- Gary123 19:50, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
The article Mormon Battalion mentions that Fremont was hauled back east to face a court martial at one point. This fact/allegation is not covered in any way by the John C. Fremont article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] - 00:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree. I would like more information on how the court martial took place. It seems to be glossed over in this piece. I am looking for: How did an established Governor, who took dramatic possession of wide swaths of land for the US suddenly become arrested and hauled 3k miles away to face imprisonment? I would like more details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spilseth ( talk • contribs) 05:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Agree. The article mentions a court-martial during the civil war. This is an error. Lincoln told him to withdraw his proclamation, he refused, and Lincoln relieved him of command on Nov 2, 1861, and annulled the proclamation himself. But he appointed Fremont to another command in March 1862. The actual court-martial took place in 1846-7.
"Friction between the two rival officers immediately ensued, and Fremont prepared to obey Stockton and continued as governor in spite of Kearny's orders. For this he was tried by court-martial in Washington, and, after a trial which lasted more than a year, was convicted, Jan. 31, 1847 of "mutiny," "disobedience to the lawful command of a superior officer," and "conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline," and was sentenced to dismissal from the service. President Polk approved of the conviction for disobedience and mutiny, but remitted the penalty and Fremont resigned." St. Louis Civil War James Galloway ( talk) 21:41, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
When searching for John C Fremont, 4 public schools named for Fremont score higher than Fremont himself for relevancy. Fremont scores only 51.1%. What?
It appears to be unclear that Fremont had any direct involvement in the murders of Jose R. Berreyesa and his nephews, Ramon and Francisco De Haro. In Fremont’s memoirs he claims that the Delawares were responsible. In other accounts Carson took the initiative and killed the three men saying later “Oh, we don’t want any prisoners; they lie out yonder.” Still other reports state that Carson wasn’t involved at all. Therefore, it cannot be said with any certainty that Fremont ordered these killings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zafe B. Brox ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
In Ferol Egan’s book “Fremont, Explorer for a Restless Nation” p356 he retells Archibald Gillespie’s account of this situation which indicates that Carson acted of his own volition, suggesting a tacit involvement by Fremont at best. On the other hand he recounts Jasper O’Farrell’s statement that Carson checked with Fremont (presumably about the taking of prisoners) and Fremont said that there would be no taking of prisoners. Information from a captured prisoner, Three- (or Four) Fingered Jack, graphically related the brutal torture and murder of captured Americans at the hands of the Californios. Although there is no excuse for the murders of the de Haros or Berreyesa, undoubtedly the judgement of the Americans was influenced by these acts. I have a fundamental problem with O’Farrell’s account. He said “I saw Carson some two years ago and spoke to him of this act and he assured me that then and since he regretted to be compelled to shoot those men, but Fremont was blood-thirsty enough to order otherwise, and he further remarked that it was not the only brutal act he was compelled to commit while under his command.” Carson was under no compulsion to do anything that he regarded as unethical or immoral. I believe that he had the power to ignore any such command with little repercussion. This smacks of political motivation. Zafe B. Brox ( talk) 02:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Fremont's role in the exploration of the Oregon Territory needs to be expanded upon, as it is barely mentioned. Katr67 22:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is this article listed in the category The History of Pederasty? - 169.237.215.179 00:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The homosexual relationship claim seems to be based on the testimony of a single individual. Is there any corroboration of Jesse Shepherd's accusation? Was the claim made before Fremont's death? Regardless, it appears to be irrelevant to the Civil War section. Red Harvest ( talk) 22:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Under the "Legacy" section, it says that Dream West "may be the best book written about the explorer." Seems a little biased if you ask me, but I don't know if there are any other books about him. Just thought I'd throw that in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.61.43 ( talk) 08:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Note that this talk page now belongs to more than 10 WikiProjects; the WPB and WPBS banner display templates both only allow for 10 and don't display more. I'm not aware of a solution while still nesting WP banners, though thought I'd make the issue known. — ADavidB 03:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
In Fremont's biography, it is stated that he was born in 1913 to "Anne Beverley Whiting... who, after his birth married Louis-Rene Fremont...on May 14, 1807." The dates in this information don't make sense. If Fremont was born in 1813, how could his mother marry after his birth in 1807?
206.78.91.34 ( talk) 21:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Was Fremont related to Confederate general W. H. C Whiting?
Please forgive my newcomer's mistakes in protocol. The sidebar on the right lists the years in office as the 5th territorial governor of Arizona as 2010 to 2012. I do not know the correct dates, but this does seem to be a typo. LawrenceDavidSander ( talk) 20:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Might be worth noting that he talent-spotted an obscure Brigadier in Tennessee called U.S. Grant. 86.181.153.97 ( talk) 23:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Several of the sources for the 1861 portion of the article (footnotes 54, 55, 61, 65-69) cite a "Smith." Unless I'm missing something, this "Smith" isn't fully cited anywhere. The article seems to make some grandiose claims on the basis of "Smith"--did Frémont really give "Ulysses S. Grant field command in charge of a combined Union offensive whose goal was to capture Memphis, Vicksburg, and New Orleans, to keep Missouri and Illinois safe from Confederate attack"? This seems grandiose, in 1861. Who is this "Smith"? Jperrylsu ( talk) 02:25, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The article currently uses this image, captioned "A young John Frémont". As has been indicated in discussions with someone knowledgeable about Frémont on my talk page (see User talk:AndyTheGrump#Wrong Photo on Fremont Page), there are good grounds to doubt that it actually is a photo of Frémont - and the only 'source' which we have indicating that it is him is the file title. Comparisons with other images (There are several good ones which can be found via a Google image search) show that this 'mystery man' is rather less slim in the face than Frémont, has a noticeably less pointed nose, and is simply less delicate in his features. Though there is some resemblance - it has been suggested that it might be a relative - I think that given the doubts, it is inappropriate to use the image, and will remove it from the article, until it can be more positively identified. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 21:44, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
The Fremonts had five children, three of whom lived to adulthood. Elizabeth Benton Fremont, who never married and lived with her mother, John C. Fremont, Jr., who became a naval officer, and Francis Preston Fremont, who became an army officer. See • NYT obit for Mrs. F -- http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FA0D14FB345D12738DDDA00A94DA415B828CF1D3 • Heitman's Register has an entry for Francis Preston on p. 436 14:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)~
I added that Jedediah Smith was the real "Pathfinder" since Smith had made vast explorations of the American West more then a decade before Frémont. I added references. Cmguy777 ( talk) 17:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen, here is the reference: Elmo Scott Watson (December 3, 1936) Jedediah Smith the Real "Pathfinder", p. 4 Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:57, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is another quote from Morgan (1953), Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the American West, on page 9, "Jedediah Smith's place in history has been established by the labors of modern students who have had the patience and the energy to search out the record, disregarding a folk belief which has persisted since the presidential campaign of 1856, that nothing of importance happened in the West before Frémont's time. This latter-day reputation is in no sense a manufactured thing, for the solid accomplishment has always been there. It is not merely the slow emergence of the facts but improved perspective on the forces that have shaped our national life which had finally revealed Jedediah Smith's true stature." Morgan is not a fringe journalist but an established historian. Calling Frémont the "Pathfinder" is part of the folk belief, in my opinion and ignores all the accomplishments of Jedediah Smith who preceded Frémont by over a decade. Cmguy777 ( talk) 19:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I am concerned with historical accuracy and integrity. Should Wikipedia or historians perpetuate the "folklore" perpetuated by the 1856 Presidential election concerning Frémont? Historian George R. Brooks chronicals how Frèmont literally follows in Smith's footsteps. This is evidence that Smith was the original Pathfinder. Brooks (1977), The Southwest Expedition of Jedediah Smith His Personal Account of the Journey to California, 1826-1827 found on pages 45, 47, 56, 133-134, 138, 143, and 173. This is documented evidence that Smith was the Pathfinder and Frèmont was the follower. This evidence should not be ignored in the article, in my opinion. Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I can give a list of instances where Brooks states how Frémont was following the path of Smith. The term The Great Pathfinder was made around 1939 I believe. This was before Morgan's biography and Brooks rediscovered 1826-1867 manuscript account made by Jedediah Smith himself. Smith's 1826-1827 manuscript was discovered in 1968 by Brooks who showed the manuscript to Dale. Reinterest in Smith had began around the 1920's. I am not trying to remove "The Great Pathfinder" from the Frémont article. Both were great American explorers and in some sense Frémont took over where Smith left off, since Smith was killed by Commanches in 1831. I believe Smith should somehow be mentioned in the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 02:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Smith took the Pacific Ocean coastal route to the Oregon Territory wheras Frémont traveled through the Western Cascades to get to the Oregon territory. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Western Explorations of John C. Frémont 1838-1854
Frémonts travels are very similar to Jedediah Smiths travels. I have to admit Frémont traveled a bit more extensively then Smith, at the same time Frémont was not killed by Commanches as Smith was. I would say the Frémont retraced Smith's original travels and in essence continued to on where Smith left off concerning Exploration of the West. Both Frémont and Smith deserve to be called the Pathfinders.
Cmguy777 (
talk) 04:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
With the above historical evidence presented, I am requesting that Jedediah Smith be included in the Frémont article, somewhat like Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibnez independently inventing calculus, that both Smith and Frémont independently were the first to explore and open the American west. Of course, Lewis and Clark, deserve to be mentioned for their exploration route to the Pacific Ocean. Smith actually kept in contact with Clark on his discoveries. The obvious evidence is the overlapping of Smith's and Frémont's routes to the West. They both deserve the title of Pathfinders. Morgan mentioned "folklore" developed during the Election of 1856 that nothing significant occurred prior to Frémont's explorations of the West. Brooks discussed in detail seven geographic areas where Fremont's and Smith's explorations over lapped. According to Morgan (1953), on page 7, Smith deserves recognition for the effective discovery of the South Pass, for the first American to travel overland through the South Pass to California, the first American to travel out of California through the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the first to travel the length and width of the Great Basin, and the first to reach Oregon by the Pacific Ocean. In addition Smith was familiar with the West from the Missouri River to the Pacific Ocean, and from Mexico to Canada more then any man of his times. Cmguy777 ( talk) 16:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen. Morgan stated Smith effectively discovered the South Pass. Smith was the first American to get to California through the South Pass, unless there is documented evidence to state otherwise. The reality is Lewis and Clark, Smith, and Frémont opened up the American West. Since there is such stiff resistance to mentioning Jedediah Smith in the article and any query into this matter would be apparently futile, I consider this discussion closed. Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a useful online essay at http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-review&month=0307&week=b&msg=bZ4Ef7Rc7tQf7rX/vmdtDA&user=&pw= An excerpt: "Fremont is described as relentless and extremely focused on his view of empire. His work as Major General in the Department of the West before the Civil War has been largely ignored and/or underrated. Chaffin asserts that, "by forcing Americans ... to reimagine the American West, [Fremont] also compelled them to reimagine America itself--to conceive of their nation, for the first time, as a sea-to-sea empire" (p. xxiv). This is the first comprehensive biography of Fremont since Andrew Rolle's _John Charles Fremont_ (1991), a far more analytical and less sympathetic study. Chaffin is at least as sympathetic to his subject as was Allan Nevins in his lengthy work on Fremont which is subtitled _The West's Greatest Adventurer_ (1928), and certainly much more appreciative of Fremont's efforts than the treatment accorded by Rodolfo Acuna in his _Occupied America_ (1988). A more recent study by David Roberts, _A Newer World: Kit Carson, John C. Fremont and the Claiming of the American West_ (2000), attempts to compare and contrast Fremont with Kit Carson. Roberts calls Fremont "something of a hero." The present work locates Fremont squarely within the historiography of the American Frontier--as an explorer, an army officer, and a dedicated, but controversial, American.....[this book] situates John Charles Fremont in the proper historical setting; his appellation of "Pathfinder" is safely secured." Rjensen ( talk) 01:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I will reopen this discussion. Cmguy777 ( talk) 22:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I am sure Chaffin's biography is suitable for the Frémont article. Smith may have had access to some of Clark's maps. However, there is no record of Smith having a map when he explored the South Pass and entered into California. Neither did Smith have a map when he traveled up the Pacific Coast nor enter the Great Basin. However, Frémont had a map made by Smith and Gibbs of the entire known West. How can Frémont be the great Pathfinder when the paths were already made by Smith? Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen, I am not argueing against reliable Frémont sources. I have been requesting that Jedediah Smith be included in the article, this done, from a historical perspective and out of respect for Smith's accomplishments. I appreciate your sympathy for his violent demise by the hands of the Commanches. If you don't want Smith in the article, that is fine. I am for editor consensus on this. I don't know if anything more can be said. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes. I agree. There was a building of knowledge concerning the American West. Frémont relied on Smith's map, just had Smith relied on information, possibly a map or maps, from Clark. Smith was keeping in contact with Clark. Ogden I believe was British and I am not sure he had contact with Americans, or at least his contact with Americans was minimal. I believe Ogden's base camp was Fort Vancouver. Smith's British counterpart rival was Ogden. I don't believe Ogden ever personally met Smith. I think that would be a great addition to the article and that would give credit to Smith and Ogden. In addition to Fremont, I would include Lewis and Clark, since they were the ones who started to break open the West to Americans. Smith was a huge admirer of Clark. I believe fur trappers and traders deserve credit for opening up the West. Fremont did improve upon Smith's explorations. I have not issue with calling Fremont the Pathfinder as long as there is context of other Western Explores including Smith, Ogden, Lewis and Clark. Mentioning Thomas Jefferson might be a good thing too. He was the first President to envision a Western Empire. Cmguy777 ( talk) 06:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
How about this? First mention Jefferson desiring to build an American Empire sent Lewis and Clark to find a North West passage to the Pacific Coast in 1804. Then Jedediah Smith, a private fur trapper, explored the West and was the first recorded American to enter Spanish California through the South Pass in 1826 making a map of the West in 1830. Then mention that the British explorer Ogden explored the West from Fort Vancouver in the Oregon Territory. Then Frémont and the U.S. military made a formal survey of the Western lands starting in 1838 using the map made by Smith. This is a rough outline. But does that seem appropriate. That way people will know there was a succession of explorations. In a sense, Lewis and Clark, Smith, Ogden, and Frémont were all Pathfinders. My mistake was assuming the Smith was the only Pathfinder. Cmguy777 ( talk) 16:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Here are maps of Ogden's Snake River expeditions for the Hudson Bay Company: Hudson's Bay Company Snake Country Expeditions, 1824-1828 Cmguy777 ( talk) 16:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a rough draft edit and has been created per discussion. I believe this would be useful for the article. This gives a succession of knowledge passed down by each generation through the decades. Cmguy777 ( talk) 00:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Rjensen, what I have learned is that the United States was coast to coast starting with President James Monroe. The 1818 treaty was fundemental to expanding the American empire. There is one more issue that may need addressing and that is the possibility the British were planning on fighting to control or retake the Oregon territory in the 1840's. Cmguy777 ( talk) 07:07, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Why else would Jefferson send Lewis and Clark out West? Apparently John Adams envisioned an America to the Pacific Ocean. That was the quest of Lewis and Clark. In fact, while Jefferson was still alive the Monroe Administration and John Quincy Adams with the Treaties of 1818 (Britain) and 1819 (Spain) expanded the United States to the Pacific Ocean. By 1819, the United States was on its way to becoming an "America Global Empire". Cmguy777 ( talk) 06:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Revision edit:
References
Is the edit confirmed to go in the article? Cmguy777 ( talk) 22:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Revision 02:
References
Thanks Rjensen. I can remove "geographic". I would suppose "transpose" would mean he used it. Frémont's 1843-1844 and 1846 expeditions are very remarkable for there similarity to Smith's expeditions of 1826-1827 and 1827-1828 into the West. If Frémont transposed this map around 1843, or prior, then I would conclude that he used the map. What other explanation is there for the similarity in their respected expedition routes? The website states Frémont transposed the map in the 1840's. I believe finding out the actual year Frémont transposed the map would help in answering if he used the map. Cmguy777 ( talk) 17:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I added the edit to fit the narration of the article. Thanks Rjensen for your valued discussion on the matter. Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I found a good Dictionary of American Biography (1931) source for Frémont, edited by Allen Johnson and Dumas Malone. I think this article can fill in some gaps, particularly Frémont's early childhood and the California Gold Rush. Frémont, John Charles Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I believe the section on the Civil War needs expansion. The situation in Missouri was a bit confusing and possibly needs better explanation in the article. More information is needed on Frémont's supply train corruption charges or profiteering. The Blair family could be mentioned in the section. During the early part of the Civil War, President Lincoln tended to concetrate on the Eastern War front rather then the Western War front. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
The page List of United States Senators from California says that John was a democrat, while this page calls him a republican. 98.127.156.152 ( talk) 00:22, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
John C. Frémont → John C. Fremont – 106 times more common Bobby Martnen ( talk) 22:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Unaccented - 17,500,000 results Accented - 165,000 results
If I knew enough to fix the problem, I would, but the brief mention of Fremont's 1864 candidacy just drops the ball. What happened? Did the Republican rift remain? Un sch ool 01:11, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
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This information has been removed to its own article: John C. Frémont botanical nomenclature eponyms. Cmguy777 ( talk) 04:17, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Frémont collected a number of plants on his expeditions, including the first recorded discovery of the Single-leaf Pinyon by a European American. The genus ( Fremontodendron) of the California Flannelbush ( Fremontodendron californicum) is named for him, as are the species names of many other plants, including the chaff bush eytelia [1] [2] ( Amphipappus fremontii), Western rosinweed ( Calycadenia fremontii), pincushion flower ( Chaenactis fremontii), goosefoot ( Chenopodium fremontii), silk tassel ( Garrya fremontii), moss gentian ( Gentiana fremontii), vernal pool goldfields ( Lasthenia fremontii), tidytips ( Layia fremontii), desert pepperweed ( Lepidium fremontii), desert boxthorn ( Lycium fremontii), barberry ( Mahonia fremontii), bush mallow ( Malacothamnus fremontii), monkeyflower ( Mimulus fremontii), phacelia ( Phacelia fremontii), desert combleaf ( Polyctenium fremontii), cottonwood tree ( Populus fremontii), desert apricot ( Prunus fremontii), indigo bush ( Psorothamnus fremontii), mountain ragwort ( Senecio fremontii), yellowray gold ( Syntrichopappus fremontii), and chaparral death camas ( Toxicoscordion fremontii).
"In June 1846, at San Rafael mission, John Frémont sent three men, one of whom was Kit Carson, to confront three unarmed men debarking from a boat at Point San Pedro. Kit Carson asked John Frémont whether they should be taken prisoner. Frémont replied, "I have got no room for prisoners." [1] They advanced on the three and deliberately shot and killed them. One of them was an old and respected Californian, Don José de los Reyes Berreyesa, whose son, the Alcalde of Sonoma, had been recently imprisoned by Frémont. The two others were twin brothers and sons of Don Francisco de Haro of Yerba Buena, who had served two terms as the first and third Alcalde of Yerba Buena (later renamed San Francisco). Berreyesa was coming to Sonoma, hoping to free his son José, whom Frémont held hostage. [2] These murders were observed by Jasper O'Farrell, a famous architect and designer of San Francisco, who wrote a letter detailing it to the Los Angeles Star, published on September 27, 1856. [1] This eyewitness account, together with others, were widely published during the presidential election of 1856. John Frémont was running as the first anti-slavery newly organized Republican Party nominee versus Democrat James Buchanan, who was the previous U.S. Secretary of State and Millard Fillmore, former 13th President and nominee of the last gasp of the Whig Party. It is widely speculated that this incident, together with other military blunders, sank Frémont's political aspirations. [3]"
Although Lincoln gave Frémont a free hand to run the war, he did not authorize Frémont to free slaves. Had Frémont given Grant more aggressive orders i.e. don't attack, but make demonstrations, he might have been able to keep his job. Frémont had the only Union Victory in 1861 in the West, but by then it was already determined by Lincoln he had to go. Cmguy777 ( talk) 04:24, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
The following has been moved from the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 06:21, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
To anyone interested, below is a three volume set of books of Fremont's expeditions, in PDF format, available for download :
I am requesting an administrator put John C. Frémont article on semi-protection status due to recent persistent vandalism. Thanks Cmguy777 ( talk) 15:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
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POV tag added to the sub-section "Court-martial and resignation", mainly for two reasons: 1) the negative description of Kearny--other sources are more neutral; and 2) the main source cited is Fremont's own memoirs. Primary sources cannot be used as references. WCCasey ( talk) 19:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
If an editor includes only one writer's opinion, then there's POV. I removed the one negative sentence, adding a quote from Spence and Jackson with their more balanced conclusions about everyone involved. Note that they did not endorse Nevins' negative opinion of Kearny. WCCasey ( talk) 23:43, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 05:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
John C. Frémont → John C. Fremont – Even his own grave doesn't use the accent, and neither do newspapers of the time or places/things named after him. Lovesaver ( talk) 05:27, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
A number of sources cited in References lack complete listings in Notes or Sources or Further Reading or anywhere else - we need author first name, title, place, date of publication.
For instance, RichardSON, 2007 (notes 11,12,13,39) - is this a typo and meant to refer to the Leonard Richards 2007 book (notes 9 & 10)?
Rhonda 2012 (note 16)
Beck 1989 (note 17)
Barbour 2012 (note 18)
Morgan 1953 (note 19)
Harlow (note 56)
Patricia Richmond, Trail to Disaster (note 73): no publication place or year.
Also in note 73, the publication details for Roberts' Newer World differ from those given under "Further Reading" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.147.14.174 ( talk) 19:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
The intro says, "During the 1840s, he led five expeditions into the Western United States". Then it says, "Frémont led a private fourth expedition ... in the winter of 1849." Then it says, "Frémont's fifth and final privately funded expedition, between 1853 and 1854". I need not point out the inconsistency.
In other ways the introduction is rather muddled about chronology. It needs better writing. An example: "In June 1846, Frémont's and his army expedition's return to California spurred the formation of the California Battalion, and his military advice led to the capture of Sonoma and the formation of the Bear Flag Republic." This is out of chronology and it seems to contradict the earlier statement that he took over Sonoma from the California Republic (same as "Bear Flag Republic"; this should also be fixed) Zaslav ( talk) 07:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
I just googled ' "John C. Fremont" "California Genocide" ', and the first article to appear was Wikipedia. The second source to appear was a blurb from < https://academicinfluence.com/people/john-c-fremont>, which cites the Wikipedia article. The third source is a speculative article from Damon Akins on Brendan C. Lindsay's book, "Murder State: California's Native American Genocide. 1846-1873", but it does not accuse Fremont of participating in or advocating the California Genocide. < https://networks.h-net.org/node/3180/discussions/95727/akins-lindsay-murder-state-californias-native-american-genocide>. The fourth link is from < https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2021/03/05/beni-johnson-when-it-comes-to-the-facts-regarding-john-c-fremont-leave-that-to-the-historians-who-know-history/> which directly cites the Wikipedia article. The fifth source is from TruthDig, which isn't that credible to begin with, and it also doesn't directly implicate Fremont in the genocidal activities that took place. Furthermore, Benjamin Madley appears to cite Wikipedia in the work being discussed in the TruthDig page. Overall, this sentence either needs to be better sourced or I'm taking it out. It's possible a separate section of the article should be about these matters, but it needs to be well-sourced. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 16:48, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
We shift from Frémon (the father's name) to Frémont with no explanation where the T comes from in John's name . I think someone needs to research this and address it in the text. Deliusfan ( talk) 03:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
That seems a bizarre statement, considering Seward was was considered "too radical" during the election of 1860, and because the thought that Seward's nomination would spur a secessionist movement in the South, Lincoln ending up getting the nomination as the "more moderate" choice to stave this off, ironically. In fact, the article on Radical Republicans has Seward's name right there. I think this should be researched further into what, specifically, Seward had against Frémont being appointed ambassador to France. Deliusfan ( talk) 04:18, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Under the heading "Fourth expedition" the final sentence of the third paragraph states "Benjamin Kern and 'Old Bill' Williams were killed while retracing the expedition trail to look for gear and survivors.(emphasis added)" The passive "were killed", absent any description of how is simply confusing. In reading the article on "Old Bill Williams" it states that "he was ambushed and killed by Ute warriors". (No article exists on Benjamin Kern.) I will change the existing sentence to reflect this. Bricology ( talk) 08:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Not sure why Richards has been tagged. His name is Richards, not Richardson. The book is called The California Gold Rush and the Coming of the Civil War (2007). What is the issue? Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
I assume that there is no place named for him in Missouri because he is ultimately held in low regard there, despite his significance in that state's history. The article is clear that there were several organized slander campaigns waged against him. Also, Missouri's pro-slavery sentiments would appear to pose a natural impediment to embracing any person having Fremont's decided abolitionist legacy. 2601:243:2680:CD78:207C:A1B9:3E32:63E ( talk) 21:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps something like [2]. -- Beland ( talk) 05:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
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Is Fremont's name really spelled with an accent mark? [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 00:27, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
The article currently says that he was the first Presidential candidate to run on a platform of opposition to slavery. But the free soil party and other minor parties had already run before him Furthermore he was only opposed to the expansion of slavery.-- Gary123 19:50, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
The article Mormon Battalion mentions that Fremont was hauled back east to face a court martial at one point. This fact/allegation is not covered in any way by the John C. Fremont article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] - 00:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree. I would like more information on how the court martial took place. It seems to be glossed over in this piece. I am looking for: How did an established Governor, who took dramatic possession of wide swaths of land for the US suddenly become arrested and hauled 3k miles away to face imprisonment? I would like more details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spilseth ( talk • contribs) 05:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Agree. The article mentions a court-martial during the civil war. This is an error. Lincoln told him to withdraw his proclamation, he refused, and Lincoln relieved him of command on Nov 2, 1861, and annulled the proclamation himself. But he appointed Fremont to another command in March 1862. The actual court-martial took place in 1846-7.
"Friction between the two rival officers immediately ensued, and Fremont prepared to obey Stockton and continued as governor in spite of Kearny's orders. For this he was tried by court-martial in Washington, and, after a trial which lasted more than a year, was convicted, Jan. 31, 1847 of "mutiny," "disobedience to the lawful command of a superior officer," and "conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline," and was sentenced to dismissal from the service. President Polk approved of the conviction for disobedience and mutiny, but remitted the penalty and Fremont resigned." St. Louis Civil War James Galloway ( talk) 21:41, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
When searching for John C Fremont, 4 public schools named for Fremont score higher than Fremont himself for relevancy. Fremont scores only 51.1%. What?
It appears to be unclear that Fremont had any direct involvement in the murders of Jose R. Berreyesa and his nephews, Ramon and Francisco De Haro. In Fremont’s memoirs he claims that the Delawares were responsible. In other accounts Carson took the initiative and killed the three men saying later “Oh, we don’t want any prisoners; they lie out yonder.” Still other reports state that Carson wasn’t involved at all. Therefore, it cannot be said with any certainty that Fremont ordered these killings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zafe B. Brox ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
In Ferol Egan’s book “Fremont, Explorer for a Restless Nation” p356 he retells Archibald Gillespie’s account of this situation which indicates that Carson acted of his own volition, suggesting a tacit involvement by Fremont at best. On the other hand he recounts Jasper O’Farrell’s statement that Carson checked with Fremont (presumably about the taking of prisoners) and Fremont said that there would be no taking of prisoners. Information from a captured prisoner, Three- (or Four) Fingered Jack, graphically related the brutal torture and murder of captured Americans at the hands of the Californios. Although there is no excuse for the murders of the de Haros or Berreyesa, undoubtedly the judgement of the Americans was influenced by these acts. I have a fundamental problem with O’Farrell’s account. He said “I saw Carson some two years ago and spoke to him of this act and he assured me that then and since he regretted to be compelled to shoot those men, but Fremont was blood-thirsty enough to order otherwise, and he further remarked that it was not the only brutal act he was compelled to commit while under his command.” Carson was under no compulsion to do anything that he regarded as unethical or immoral. I believe that he had the power to ignore any such command with little repercussion. This smacks of political motivation. Zafe B. Brox ( talk) 02:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Fremont's role in the exploration of the Oregon Territory needs to be expanded upon, as it is barely mentioned. Katr67 22:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is this article listed in the category The History of Pederasty? - 169.237.215.179 00:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The homosexual relationship claim seems to be based on the testimony of a single individual. Is there any corroboration of Jesse Shepherd's accusation? Was the claim made before Fremont's death? Regardless, it appears to be irrelevant to the Civil War section. Red Harvest ( talk) 22:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Under the "Legacy" section, it says that Dream West "may be the best book written about the explorer." Seems a little biased if you ask me, but I don't know if there are any other books about him. Just thought I'd throw that in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.61.43 ( talk) 08:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Note that this talk page now belongs to more than 10 WikiProjects; the WPB and WPBS banner display templates both only allow for 10 and don't display more. I'm not aware of a solution while still nesting WP banners, though thought I'd make the issue known. — ADavidB 03:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
In Fremont's biography, it is stated that he was born in 1913 to "Anne Beverley Whiting... who, after his birth married Louis-Rene Fremont...on May 14, 1807." The dates in this information don't make sense. If Fremont was born in 1813, how could his mother marry after his birth in 1807?
206.78.91.34 ( talk) 21:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Was Fremont related to Confederate general W. H. C Whiting?
Please forgive my newcomer's mistakes in protocol. The sidebar on the right lists the years in office as the 5th territorial governor of Arizona as 2010 to 2012. I do not know the correct dates, but this does seem to be a typo. LawrenceDavidSander ( talk) 20:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Might be worth noting that he talent-spotted an obscure Brigadier in Tennessee called U.S. Grant. 86.181.153.97 ( talk) 23:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Several of the sources for the 1861 portion of the article (footnotes 54, 55, 61, 65-69) cite a "Smith." Unless I'm missing something, this "Smith" isn't fully cited anywhere. The article seems to make some grandiose claims on the basis of "Smith"--did Frémont really give "Ulysses S. Grant field command in charge of a combined Union offensive whose goal was to capture Memphis, Vicksburg, and New Orleans, to keep Missouri and Illinois safe from Confederate attack"? This seems grandiose, in 1861. Who is this "Smith"? Jperrylsu ( talk) 02:25, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The article currently uses this image, captioned "A young John Frémont". As has been indicated in discussions with someone knowledgeable about Frémont on my talk page (see User talk:AndyTheGrump#Wrong Photo on Fremont Page), there are good grounds to doubt that it actually is a photo of Frémont - and the only 'source' which we have indicating that it is him is the file title. Comparisons with other images (There are several good ones which can be found via a Google image search) show that this 'mystery man' is rather less slim in the face than Frémont, has a noticeably less pointed nose, and is simply less delicate in his features. Though there is some resemblance - it has been suggested that it might be a relative - I think that given the doubts, it is inappropriate to use the image, and will remove it from the article, until it can be more positively identified. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 21:44, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
The Fremonts had five children, three of whom lived to adulthood. Elizabeth Benton Fremont, who never married and lived with her mother, John C. Fremont, Jr., who became a naval officer, and Francis Preston Fremont, who became an army officer. See • NYT obit for Mrs. F -- http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FA0D14FB345D12738DDDA00A94DA415B828CF1D3 • Heitman's Register has an entry for Francis Preston on p. 436 14:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)~
I added that Jedediah Smith was the real "Pathfinder" since Smith had made vast explorations of the American West more then a decade before Frémont. I added references. Cmguy777 ( talk) 17:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen, here is the reference: Elmo Scott Watson (December 3, 1936) Jedediah Smith the Real "Pathfinder", p. 4 Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:57, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is another quote from Morgan (1953), Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the American West, on page 9, "Jedediah Smith's place in history has been established by the labors of modern students who have had the patience and the energy to search out the record, disregarding a folk belief which has persisted since the presidential campaign of 1856, that nothing of importance happened in the West before Frémont's time. This latter-day reputation is in no sense a manufactured thing, for the solid accomplishment has always been there. It is not merely the slow emergence of the facts but improved perspective on the forces that have shaped our national life which had finally revealed Jedediah Smith's true stature." Morgan is not a fringe journalist but an established historian. Calling Frémont the "Pathfinder" is part of the folk belief, in my opinion and ignores all the accomplishments of Jedediah Smith who preceded Frémont by over a decade. Cmguy777 ( talk) 19:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I am concerned with historical accuracy and integrity. Should Wikipedia or historians perpetuate the "folklore" perpetuated by the 1856 Presidential election concerning Frémont? Historian George R. Brooks chronicals how Frèmont literally follows in Smith's footsteps. This is evidence that Smith was the original Pathfinder. Brooks (1977), The Southwest Expedition of Jedediah Smith His Personal Account of the Journey to California, 1826-1827 found on pages 45, 47, 56, 133-134, 138, 143, and 173. This is documented evidence that Smith was the Pathfinder and Frèmont was the follower. This evidence should not be ignored in the article, in my opinion. Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I can give a list of instances where Brooks states how Frémont was following the path of Smith. The term The Great Pathfinder was made around 1939 I believe. This was before Morgan's biography and Brooks rediscovered 1826-1867 manuscript account made by Jedediah Smith himself. Smith's 1826-1827 manuscript was discovered in 1968 by Brooks who showed the manuscript to Dale. Reinterest in Smith had began around the 1920's. I am not trying to remove "The Great Pathfinder" from the Frémont article. Both were great American explorers and in some sense Frémont took over where Smith left off, since Smith was killed by Commanches in 1831. I believe Smith should somehow be mentioned in the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 02:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Smith took the Pacific Ocean coastal route to the Oregon Territory wheras Frémont traveled through the Western Cascades to get to the Oregon territory. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Western Explorations of John C. Frémont 1838-1854
Frémonts travels are very similar to Jedediah Smiths travels. I have to admit Frémont traveled a bit more extensively then Smith, at the same time Frémont was not killed by Commanches as Smith was. I would say the Frémont retraced Smith's original travels and in essence continued to on where Smith left off concerning Exploration of the West. Both Frémont and Smith deserve to be called the Pathfinders.
Cmguy777 (
talk) 04:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
With the above historical evidence presented, I am requesting that Jedediah Smith be included in the Frémont article, somewhat like Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibnez independently inventing calculus, that both Smith and Frémont independently were the first to explore and open the American west. Of course, Lewis and Clark, deserve to be mentioned for their exploration route to the Pacific Ocean. Smith actually kept in contact with Clark on his discoveries. The obvious evidence is the overlapping of Smith's and Frémont's routes to the West. They both deserve the title of Pathfinders. Morgan mentioned "folklore" developed during the Election of 1856 that nothing significant occurred prior to Frémont's explorations of the West. Brooks discussed in detail seven geographic areas where Fremont's and Smith's explorations over lapped. According to Morgan (1953), on page 7, Smith deserves recognition for the effective discovery of the South Pass, for the first American to travel overland through the South Pass to California, the first American to travel out of California through the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the first to travel the length and width of the Great Basin, and the first to reach Oregon by the Pacific Ocean. In addition Smith was familiar with the West from the Missouri River to the Pacific Ocean, and from Mexico to Canada more then any man of his times. Cmguy777 ( talk) 16:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen. Morgan stated Smith effectively discovered the South Pass. Smith was the first American to get to California through the South Pass, unless there is documented evidence to state otherwise. The reality is Lewis and Clark, Smith, and Frémont opened up the American West. Since there is such stiff resistance to mentioning Jedediah Smith in the article and any query into this matter would be apparently futile, I consider this discussion closed. Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a useful online essay at http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-review&month=0307&week=b&msg=bZ4Ef7Rc7tQf7rX/vmdtDA&user=&pw= An excerpt: "Fremont is described as relentless and extremely focused on his view of empire. His work as Major General in the Department of the West before the Civil War has been largely ignored and/or underrated. Chaffin asserts that, "by forcing Americans ... to reimagine the American West, [Fremont] also compelled them to reimagine America itself--to conceive of their nation, for the first time, as a sea-to-sea empire" (p. xxiv). This is the first comprehensive biography of Fremont since Andrew Rolle's _John Charles Fremont_ (1991), a far more analytical and less sympathetic study. Chaffin is at least as sympathetic to his subject as was Allan Nevins in his lengthy work on Fremont which is subtitled _The West's Greatest Adventurer_ (1928), and certainly much more appreciative of Fremont's efforts than the treatment accorded by Rodolfo Acuna in his _Occupied America_ (1988). A more recent study by David Roberts, _A Newer World: Kit Carson, John C. Fremont and the Claiming of the American West_ (2000), attempts to compare and contrast Fremont with Kit Carson. Roberts calls Fremont "something of a hero." The present work locates Fremont squarely within the historiography of the American Frontier--as an explorer, an army officer, and a dedicated, but controversial, American.....[this book] situates John Charles Fremont in the proper historical setting; his appellation of "Pathfinder" is safely secured." Rjensen ( talk) 01:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I will reopen this discussion. Cmguy777 ( talk) 22:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I am sure Chaffin's biography is suitable for the Frémont article. Smith may have had access to some of Clark's maps. However, there is no record of Smith having a map when he explored the South Pass and entered into California. Neither did Smith have a map when he traveled up the Pacific Coast nor enter the Great Basin. However, Frémont had a map made by Smith and Gibbs of the entire known West. How can Frémont be the great Pathfinder when the paths were already made by Smith? Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen, I am not argueing against reliable Frémont sources. I have been requesting that Jedediah Smith be included in the article, this done, from a historical perspective and out of respect for Smith's accomplishments. I appreciate your sympathy for his violent demise by the hands of the Commanches. If you don't want Smith in the article, that is fine. I am for editor consensus on this. I don't know if anything more can be said. Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes. I agree. There was a building of knowledge concerning the American West. Frémont relied on Smith's map, just had Smith relied on information, possibly a map or maps, from Clark. Smith was keeping in contact with Clark. Ogden I believe was British and I am not sure he had contact with Americans, or at least his contact with Americans was minimal. I believe Ogden's base camp was Fort Vancouver. Smith's British counterpart rival was Ogden. I don't believe Ogden ever personally met Smith. I think that would be a great addition to the article and that would give credit to Smith and Ogden. In addition to Fremont, I would include Lewis and Clark, since they were the ones who started to break open the West to Americans. Smith was a huge admirer of Clark. I believe fur trappers and traders deserve credit for opening up the West. Fremont did improve upon Smith's explorations. I have not issue with calling Fremont the Pathfinder as long as there is context of other Western Explores including Smith, Ogden, Lewis and Clark. Mentioning Thomas Jefferson might be a good thing too. He was the first President to envision a Western Empire. Cmguy777 ( talk) 06:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
How about this? First mention Jefferson desiring to build an American Empire sent Lewis and Clark to find a North West passage to the Pacific Coast in 1804. Then Jedediah Smith, a private fur trapper, explored the West and was the first recorded American to enter Spanish California through the South Pass in 1826 making a map of the West in 1830. Then mention that the British explorer Ogden explored the West from Fort Vancouver in the Oregon Territory. Then Frémont and the U.S. military made a formal survey of the Western lands starting in 1838 using the map made by Smith. This is a rough outline. But does that seem appropriate. That way people will know there was a succession of explorations. In a sense, Lewis and Clark, Smith, Ogden, and Frémont were all Pathfinders. My mistake was assuming the Smith was the only Pathfinder. Cmguy777 ( talk) 16:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Here are maps of Ogden's Snake River expeditions for the Hudson Bay Company: Hudson's Bay Company Snake Country Expeditions, 1824-1828 Cmguy777 ( talk) 16:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a rough draft edit and has been created per discussion. I believe this would be useful for the article. This gives a succession of knowledge passed down by each generation through the decades. Cmguy777 ( talk) 00:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Rjensen, what I have learned is that the United States was coast to coast starting with President James Monroe. The 1818 treaty was fundemental to expanding the American empire. There is one more issue that may need addressing and that is the possibility the British were planning on fighting to control or retake the Oregon territory in the 1840's. Cmguy777 ( talk) 07:07, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Why else would Jefferson send Lewis and Clark out West? Apparently John Adams envisioned an America to the Pacific Ocean. That was the quest of Lewis and Clark. In fact, while Jefferson was still alive the Monroe Administration and John Quincy Adams with the Treaties of 1818 (Britain) and 1819 (Spain) expanded the United States to the Pacific Ocean. By 1819, the United States was on its way to becoming an "America Global Empire". Cmguy777 ( talk) 06:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Revision edit:
References
Is the edit confirmed to go in the article? Cmguy777 ( talk) 22:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Revision 02:
References
Thanks Rjensen. I can remove "geographic". I would suppose "transpose" would mean he used it. Frémont's 1843-1844 and 1846 expeditions are very remarkable for there similarity to Smith's expeditions of 1826-1827 and 1827-1828 into the West. If Frémont transposed this map around 1843, or prior, then I would conclude that he used the map. What other explanation is there for the similarity in their respected expedition routes? The website states Frémont transposed the map in the 1840's. I believe finding out the actual year Frémont transposed the map would help in answering if he used the map. Cmguy777 ( talk) 17:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I added the edit to fit the narration of the article. Thanks Rjensen for your valued discussion on the matter. Cmguy777 ( talk) 21:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I found a good Dictionary of American Biography (1931) source for Frémont, edited by Allen Johnson and Dumas Malone. I think this article can fill in some gaps, particularly Frémont's early childhood and the California Gold Rush. Frémont, John Charles Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I believe the section on the Civil War needs expansion. The situation in Missouri was a bit confusing and possibly needs better explanation in the article. More information is needed on Frémont's supply train corruption charges or profiteering. The Blair family could be mentioned in the section. During the early part of the Civil War, President Lincoln tended to concetrate on the Eastern War front rather then the Western War front. Cmguy777 ( talk) 05:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
The page List of United States Senators from California says that John was a democrat, while this page calls him a republican. 98.127.156.152 ( talk) 00:22, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
John C. Frémont → John C. Fremont – 106 times more common Bobby Martnen ( talk) 22:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Unaccented - 17,500,000 results Accented - 165,000 results
If I knew enough to fix the problem, I would, but the brief mention of Fremont's 1864 candidacy just drops the ball. What happened? Did the Republican rift remain? Un sch ool 01:11, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
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This information has been removed to its own article: John C. Frémont botanical nomenclature eponyms. Cmguy777 ( talk) 04:17, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Frémont collected a number of plants on his expeditions, including the first recorded discovery of the Single-leaf Pinyon by a European American. The genus ( Fremontodendron) of the California Flannelbush ( Fremontodendron californicum) is named for him, as are the species names of many other plants, including the chaff bush eytelia [1] [2] ( Amphipappus fremontii), Western rosinweed ( Calycadenia fremontii), pincushion flower ( Chaenactis fremontii), goosefoot ( Chenopodium fremontii), silk tassel ( Garrya fremontii), moss gentian ( Gentiana fremontii), vernal pool goldfields ( Lasthenia fremontii), tidytips ( Layia fremontii), desert pepperweed ( Lepidium fremontii), desert boxthorn ( Lycium fremontii), barberry ( Mahonia fremontii), bush mallow ( Malacothamnus fremontii), monkeyflower ( Mimulus fremontii), phacelia ( Phacelia fremontii), desert combleaf ( Polyctenium fremontii), cottonwood tree ( Populus fremontii), desert apricot ( Prunus fremontii), indigo bush ( Psorothamnus fremontii), mountain ragwort ( Senecio fremontii), yellowray gold ( Syntrichopappus fremontii), and chaparral death camas ( Toxicoscordion fremontii).
"In June 1846, at San Rafael mission, John Frémont sent three men, one of whom was Kit Carson, to confront three unarmed men debarking from a boat at Point San Pedro. Kit Carson asked John Frémont whether they should be taken prisoner. Frémont replied, "I have got no room for prisoners." [1] They advanced on the three and deliberately shot and killed them. One of them was an old and respected Californian, Don José de los Reyes Berreyesa, whose son, the Alcalde of Sonoma, had been recently imprisoned by Frémont. The two others were twin brothers and sons of Don Francisco de Haro of Yerba Buena, who had served two terms as the first and third Alcalde of Yerba Buena (later renamed San Francisco). Berreyesa was coming to Sonoma, hoping to free his son José, whom Frémont held hostage. [2] These murders were observed by Jasper O'Farrell, a famous architect and designer of San Francisco, who wrote a letter detailing it to the Los Angeles Star, published on September 27, 1856. [1] This eyewitness account, together with others, were widely published during the presidential election of 1856. John Frémont was running as the first anti-slavery newly organized Republican Party nominee versus Democrat James Buchanan, who was the previous U.S. Secretary of State and Millard Fillmore, former 13th President and nominee of the last gasp of the Whig Party. It is widely speculated that this incident, together with other military blunders, sank Frémont's political aspirations. [3]"
Although Lincoln gave Frémont a free hand to run the war, he did not authorize Frémont to free slaves. Had Frémont given Grant more aggressive orders i.e. don't attack, but make demonstrations, he might have been able to keep his job. Frémont had the only Union Victory in 1861 in the West, but by then it was already determined by Lincoln he had to go. Cmguy777 ( talk) 04:24, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
The following has been moved from the article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 06:21, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
To anyone interested, below is a three volume set of books of Fremont's expeditions, in PDF format, available for download :
I am requesting an administrator put John C. Frémont article on semi-protection status due to recent persistent vandalism. Thanks Cmguy777 ( talk) 15:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
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POV tag added to the sub-section "Court-martial and resignation", mainly for two reasons: 1) the negative description of Kearny--other sources are more neutral; and 2) the main source cited is Fremont's own memoirs. Primary sources cannot be used as references. WCCasey ( talk) 19:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
If an editor includes only one writer's opinion, then there's POV. I removed the one negative sentence, adding a quote from Spence and Jackson with their more balanced conclusions about everyone involved. Note that they did not endorse Nevins' negative opinion of Kearny. WCCasey ( talk) 23:43, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 05:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
John C. Frémont → John C. Fremont – Even his own grave doesn't use the accent, and neither do newspapers of the time or places/things named after him. Lovesaver ( talk) 05:27, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
A number of sources cited in References lack complete listings in Notes or Sources or Further Reading or anywhere else - we need author first name, title, place, date of publication.
For instance, RichardSON, 2007 (notes 11,12,13,39) - is this a typo and meant to refer to the Leonard Richards 2007 book (notes 9 & 10)?
Rhonda 2012 (note 16)
Beck 1989 (note 17)
Barbour 2012 (note 18)
Morgan 1953 (note 19)
Harlow (note 56)
Patricia Richmond, Trail to Disaster (note 73): no publication place or year.
Also in note 73, the publication details for Roberts' Newer World differ from those given under "Further Reading" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.147.14.174 ( talk) 19:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
The intro says, "During the 1840s, he led five expeditions into the Western United States". Then it says, "Frémont led a private fourth expedition ... in the winter of 1849." Then it says, "Frémont's fifth and final privately funded expedition, between 1853 and 1854". I need not point out the inconsistency.
In other ways the introduction is rather muddled about chronology. It needs better writing. An example: "In June 1846, Frémont's and his army expedition's return to California spurred the formation of the California Battalion, and his military advice led to the capture of Sonoma and the formation of the Bear Flag Republic." This is out of chronology and it seems to contradict the earlier statement that he took over Sonoma from the California Republic (same as "Bear Flag Republic"; this should also be fixed) Zaslav ( talk) 07:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
I just googled ' "John C. Fremont" "California Genocide" ', and the first article to appear was Wikipedia. The second source to appear was a blurb from < https://academicinfluence.com/people/john-c-fremont>, which cites the Wikipedia article. The third source is a speculative article from Damon Akins on Brendan C. Lindsay's book, "Murder State: California's Native American Genocide. 1846-1873", but it does not accuse Fremont of participating in or advocating the California Genocide. < https://networks.h-net.org/node/3180/discussions/95727/akins-lindsay-murder-state-californias-native-american-genocide>. The fourth link is from < https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2021/03/05/beni-johnson-when-it-comes-to-the-facts-regarding-john-c-fremont-leave-that-to-the-historians-who-know-history/> which directly cites the Wikipedia article. The fifth source is from TruthDig, which isn't that credible to begin with, and it also doesn't directly implicate Fremont in the genocidal activities that took place. Furthermore, Benjamin Madley appears to cite Wikipedia in the work being discussed in the TruthDig page. Overall, this sentence either needs to be better sourced or I'm taking it out. It's possible a separate section of the article should be about these matters, but it needs to be well-sourced. CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 16:48, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
We shift from Frémon (the father's name) to Frémont with no explanation where the T comes from in John's name . I think someone needs to research this and address it in the text. Deliusfan ( talk) 03:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
That seems a bizarre statement, considering Seward was was considered "too radical" during the election of 1860, and because the thought that Seward's nomination would spur a secessionist movement in the South, Lincoln ending up getting the nomination as the "more moderate" choice to stave this off, ironically. In fact, the article on Radical Republicans has Seward's name right there. I think this should be researched further into what, specifically, Seward had against Frémont being appointed ambassador to France. Deliusfan ( talk) 04:18, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Under the heading "Fourth expedition" the final sentence of the third paragraph states "Benjamin Kern and 'Old Bill' Williams were killed while retracing the expedition trail to look for gear and survivors.(emphasis added)" The passive "were killed", absent any description of how is simply confusing. In reading the article on "Old Bill Williams" it states that "he was ambushed and killed by Ute warriors". (No article exists on Benjamin Kern.) I will change the existing sentence to reflect this. Bricology ( talk) 08:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Not sure why Richards has been tagged. His name is Richards, not Richardson. The book is called The California Gold Rush and the Coming of the Civil War (2007). What is the issue? Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
I assume that there is no place named for him in Missouri because he is ultimately held in low regard there, despite his significance in that state's history. The article is clear that there were several organized slander campaigns waged against him. Also, Missouri's pro-slavery sentiments would appear to pose a natural impediment to embracing any person having Fremont's decided abolitionist legacy. 2601:243:2680:CD78:207C:A1B9:3E32:63E ( talk) 21:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps something like [2]. -- Beland ( talk) 05:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)