This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
John C. Calhoun article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | John C. Calhoun is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 18, 2019. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from John C. Calhoun was copied or moved into A Disquisition on Government with this edit on February 3, 2017. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
It's not the job of editors to decide what conservatism should be, it's our job to report what the RS say . They are clear enough: 1) https://books.google.com/books?isbn=144380276X Brian Farmer - 2008 - "Perhaps no figure better exemplifies the attitudes of Southern conservatism in the antebellum period than John C. Calhoun of South Carolina." 2) Russell Kirk devoted chapter 5 to Randolph & Calhoun. 3) American Conservatism: An Encyclopedia https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1497651573 ed Bruce Frohnen, (2014): "Calhoun addressed these problems forthrightly (often at the expense of popularity) and in so doing did his best to promote the public welfare and preserve the republic." nullification he adopted from Jefferson and Madison. 4) https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1438432348 Robert C. Smith - 2010 - "Calhoun remains a highly revered figure in the conservative tradition in America—“the Moses of states rights conservatism”—highly regarded for his arguments about the limited powers of the federal government, states rights,...." 5) Conservatism Revisited: The Revolt Against Ideology By Peter Viereck says re Calhoun's Disquisition: "this more extreme, very regional Calhoun conservatism still dominates much of the American South in the 1970s" Rjensen ( talk) 17:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
This edit:
The "kind superintending care" with which Calhoun treated his own slaves is shown by an incident in 1831, when his slave Alick ran away when threatened with a severe whipping. Calhoun wrote to the captor:
I am glad to hear that Alick has been apprehended and am much obliged to you for paying the expense of apprehending him . . . . He ran away for no other cause, but to avoid a correction for some misconduct, and as I am desirous to prevent a repetition, I wish you to have him lodged in Jail for one week, to be fed on bread and water and to employ some one for me to give him 30 lashes well laid on, at the end of the time. I hope you will pardon the trouble. I only give it, because I deem it necessary to our proper security to prevent the formation of the habit of running away, and I think it better to punish him before his return home than afterwards. [1]
was reverted without explanation. Is there one? Kablammo ( talk) 10:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
I altered the intro to the incident to something a bit more NPOV. (Which is a policy here.) Starting out with "Calhoun's "superintending care" of his own slaves includes an incident in 1831..." is sarcastically implying this was par for the course in how he treated his slaves. Without a credible source saying it was, the statement goes against WP:NPOV. Rja13ww33 ( talk) 16:39, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
____
Hello Rjensen. I recently added "[sic]" to a quote in the article because it read "a Indian tribe" rather than the grammatically correct "an Indian tribe." Another editor recently changed it to "an." I reverted, and I thought that adding sic would deter other editors from doing the same thing in the future. This seems like a reasonable justification to me to keeping that in. Display name 99 ( talk) 23:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
The issue of "historical reputation" really over-represents the "Lost Cause" view of Calhoun as though it is still a respected and common view of history. Most modern historians consider the "Lost Cause of the South" to be pseudohistory that was invented during the early 20th century to serve as justification for segregation. (In fact, it's even listed as an example on Wikipedia's page on pseudohistory, alongside the Shakespeare authorship and Christ myth theories that are also widely discredited.) The section also heavily overrepresents the views of Clyde N. Wilson in particular. While he certainly has done quite a bit of research on Calhoun, Wilson is a founding member of the white supremacist organization League of the South and is hardly representative of the current historiographical consensus on Calhoun or the pre-Civil-War South in general. While I understand the need for Wikipedia to reflect different perspectives, we need to consider issues of undue weight: historical perspectives that are fringe should be given less time than people who are closer to the research consensus, but the section is currently weighted in the opposite direction. I think that what Lost Causers think should be included, but properly contextualized the way any outdated theory would be, lest someone using the site to research be given the impression that it's still the mainstream. Anyway, I saw my edit that cut the extended (and unnecessary anyway imo) Wilson quote and added some qualifications to the "Lost Cause" section was reverted, and I was told to take it to the talk page. So here I am. I was also thanked for the edit by another editor, so I figure there are some here who agree with me and there's room for discussion. At the very least, not including Wilson's white supremacist ties in an article citing him about a pro-slavery historical figure seems like a major omission. Beggarsbanquet ( talk) 03:52, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Rjensen:, I have deleted the sentence: "He did not extend his concept of minority rights to racial minorities".
The statement is made from a modern point-of-view assumption concerning Calhoun's politics about slavery. It is a logical fallacy. In addition, it uses the term "minorities" in a way that was unknown in the Antebellum South.
I have read the referenced paper [1] (actually it is a four-page review of the academic paper "Majority Rule versus Consensus: The Political Thought of John C. Calhoun"). Nowhere in the review was I able to find support for the assertation that Calhoun held the concept of "racial minorities" (i.e. Blacks as minorities). Calhoun's concept of "minority rights" was limited to the idea that "small states" were in the minority; specifically, he was concerned with "minority states rights" in politics, particularly as the rights of the "minority" Southern states. He did not confer upon slaves any status as "minorities" who had "rights". Those words were not in his vocabulary.
The use of the word "minority" as related to Blacks was not used in the Antebellum Slave Plantation era. The original use of the word "minority" meaning "group of people separated from the rest of a community by race, religion, language, etc." occurred in 1919. It was in an Eastern European context.
Osomite hablemos 20:42, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
References
I was unable to find his political party. Does anyone know? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.218.61.44 ( talk) 01:13, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello all, I was hoping to change the image of John C. Calhoun to this.
we should probably do it because Wikipedia prefers actual images of people, to get a more realistic sense of what they looked like.
Thanks,
- Tom TomVenam2021 ( talk) 04:33, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I changed the painting of John C. Calhoun to a photograph. As TomVenam2021 says, "Wikipedia prefers actual images of people to get a more realistic sense of what they looked like" Wcamp9 ( talk) 00:14, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
John C. Calhoun article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | John C. Calhoun is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 18, 2019. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from John C. Calhoun was copied or moved into A Disquisition on Government with this edit on February 3, 2017. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
It's not the job of editors to decide what conservatism should be, it's our job to report what the RS say . They are clear enough: 1) https://books.google.com/books?isbn=144380276X Brian Farmer - 2008 - "Perhaps no figure better exemplifies the attitudes of Southern conservatism in the antebellum period than John C. Calhoun of South Carolina." 2) Russell Kirk devoted chapter 5 to Randolph & Calhoun. 3) American Conservatism: An Encyclopedia https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1497651573 ed Bruce Frohnen, (2014): "Calhoun addressed these problems forthrightly (often at the expense of popularity) and in so doing did his best to promote the public welfare and preserve the republic." nullification he adopted from Jefferson and Madison. 4) https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1438432348 Robert C. Smith - 2010 - "Calhoun remains a highly revered figure in the conservative tradition in America—“the Moses of states rights conservatism”—highly regarded for his arguments about the limited powers of the federal government, states rights,...." 5) Conservatism Revisited: The Revolt Against Ideology By Peter Viereck says re Calhoun's Disquisition: "this more extreme, very regional Calhoun conservatism still dominates much of the American South in the 1970s" Rjensen ( talk) 17:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
This edit:
The "kind superintending care" with which Calhoun treated his own slaves is shown by an incident in 1831, when his slave Alick ran away when threatened with a severe whipping. Calhoun wrote to the captor:
I am glad to hear that Alick has been apprehended and am much obliged to you for paying the expense of apprehending him . . . . He ran away for no other cause, but to avoid a correction for some misconduct, and as I am desirous to prevent a repetition, I wish you to have him lodged in Jail for one week, to be fed on bread and water and to employ some one for me to give him 30 lashes well laid on, at the end of the time. I hope you will pardon the trouble. I only give it, because I deem it necessary to our proper security to prevent the formation of the habit of running away, and I think it better to punish him before his return home than afterwards. [1]
was reverted without explanation. Is there one? Kablammo ( talk) 10:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
I altered the intro to the incident to something a bit more NPOV. (Which is a policy here.) Starting out with "Calhoun's "superintending care" of his own slaves includes an incident in 1831..." is sarcastically implying this was par for the course in how he treated his slaves. Without a credible source saying it was, the statement goes against WP:NPOV. Rja13ww33 ( talk) 16:39, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
____
Hello Rjensen. I recently added "[sic]" to a quote in the article because it read "a Indian tribe" rather than the grammatically correct "an Indian tribe." Another editor recently changed it to "an." I reverted, and I thought that adding sic would deter other editors from doing the same thing in the future. This seems like a reasonable justification to me to keeping that in. Display name 99 ( talk) 23:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
The issue of "historical reputation" really over-represents the "Lost Cause" view of Calhoun as though it is still a respected and common view of history. Most modern historians consider the "Lost Cause of the South" to be pseudohistory that was invented during the early 20th century to serve as justification for segregation. (In fact, it's even listed as an example on Wikipedia's page on pseudohistory, alongside the Shakespeare authorship and Christ myth theories that are also widely discredited.) The section also heavily overrepresents the views of Clyde N. Wilson in particular. While he certainly has done quite a bit of research on Calhoun, Wilson is a founding member of the white supremacist organization League of the South and is hardly representative of the current historiographical consensus on Calhoun or the pre-Civil-War South in general. While I understand the need for Wikipedia to reflect different perspectives, we need to consider issues of undue weight: historical perspectives that are fringe should be given less time than people who are closer to the research consensus, but the section is currently weighted in the opposite direction. I think that what Lost Causers think should be included, but properly contextualized the way any outdated theory would be, lest someone using the site to research be given the impression that it's still the mainstream. Anyway, I saw my edit that cut the extended (and unnecessary anyway imo) Wilson quote and added some qualifications to the "Lost Cause" section was reverted, and I was told to take it to the talk page. So here I am. I was also thanked for the edit by another editor, so I figure there are some here who agree with me and there's room for discussion. At the very least, not including Wilson's white supremacist ties in an article citing him about a pro-slavery historical figure seems like a major omission. Beggarsbanquet ( talk) 03:52, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Rjensen:, I have deleted the sentence: "He did not extend his concept of minority rights to racial minorities".
The statement is made from a modern point-of-view assumption concerning Calhoun's politics about slavery. It is a logical fallacy. In addition, it uses the term "minorities" in a way that was unknown in the Antebellum South.
I have read the referenced paper [1] (actually it is a four-page review of the academic paper "Majority Rule versus Consensus: The Political Thought of John C. Calhoun"). Nowhere in the review was I able to find support for the assertation that Calhoun held the concept of "racial minorities" (i.e. Blacks as minorities). Calhoun's concept of "minority rights" was limited to the idea that "small states" were in the minority; specifically, he was concerned with "minority states rights" in politics, particularly as the rights of the "minority" Southern states. He did not confer upon slaves any status as "minorities" who had "rights". Those words were not in his vocabulary.
The use of the word "minority" as related to Blacks was not used in the Antebellum Slave Plantation era. The original use of the word "minority" meaning "group of people separated from the rest of a community by race, religion, language, etc." occurred in 1919. It was in an Eastern European context.
Osomite hablemos 20:42, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
References
I was unable to find his political party. Does anyone know? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.218.61.44 ( talk) 01:13, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello all, I was hoping to change the image of John C. Calhoun to this.
we should probably do it because Wikipedia prefers actual images of people, to get a more realistic sense of what they looked like.
Thanks,
- Tom TomVenam2021 ( talk) 04:33, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I changed the painting of John C. Calhoun to a photograph. As TomVenam2021 says, "Wikipedia prefers actual images of people to get a more realistic sense of what they looked like" Wcamp9 ( talk) 00:14, 23 July 2024 (UTC)