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Okay, I had no idea Byrne would get so upset over the message I left him; I felt it was reasonably polite and low-key, and by "actual facts" I was referring to the lengthy biography and bibliography which had both been deleted (why delete, for instance, the section on his She-Hulk run? I liked his She-Hulk run). I do apologize, both to Mr Byrne for any hurt feelings, and to Jimbo and the Wikimedia Foundation as a whole for any difficulties that may arise from this.
sigh - DS 21:36, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry. Byrne's bark is worse that his bite.
He's mainly frustrated because he doesn't wield the same control on his entry at Wikipedia as he does on his own, creator-dedicated forum -- which is only right, after all.
Byrne also detests aliasing in forum participation: he feels people should use their real names when expressing their opinions. Can't say I disagree with this.
Your article intermixes facts with opinions, and is presented in an authoritative manner which tends to blur this distinction. Perhaps this is because -- in John Byrne's case -- it is impossible to discuss the man's work without discussing the man ... something which is quite possible to do with another comic book creator name of Steve Ditko who keeps an extremely low profile and prefers to let his work speak for itself.
At any rate, Byrne should not be allowed to simply delete entire segments of the article any more than historians should be allowed to censor history. Opinions have as much merit as facts if they can be substantiated. So, for example, if you're going to present the Byrne / Shooter relationship in unvarnished detail, please reference this information so the reader can formulate his or her own opinion.
I think the article is pretty good, by the way. It is surprisingly up to date. However, I think its contents would be more balanced if there was more in it about those people that Byrne helped along or inspired in his career. Mike Mignola, if memory serves, got to launch his Hellboy in the pages of Next Men. Had Byrne not allowed this, we might not have had one Hellboy Movie and another in the works. There is also the former illustrator Vic Bridges who contributed to Image Comics a few years ago (for Erik Larsen's Freak Force, I think) and whose style was very clearly inspired by John Byrne's work on X-Men.
Thanks for your efforts and, please, don't let John Byrne intimidate you.
Jesusgarcia 22:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
John Byrne has complained that this article contains a lot of falsehoods, rumors, innuendo, etc. He has not yet given me specific details of what that means. But I read through the article and while it was pretty good, it was filled with a lot of 'weasel words' like "Some say..."
I'd like to see facts added back into the article (the facts from the parts I have removed for now) with exquisite attention to sourcing every little thing. If we don't have a source for it, don't say it. No speculation, no opinion, no editorializing. Shining clean pure neutrality with a hard hard look at sources.
-- Jimbo Wales 01:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
As one of the original expanders of the article, I can state that I had at least a few specific sources:
Primary Source 1: John Byrne's own site. Facts such as his first work can be viewed in the gallery, such as the "Gay Guy" and early snowbird features. Much of the facts of his run come from his own faq.
Primary Source 2: Three Comics Interview Issues, I wish I could remember the issue numbers. I think the first issues were solely dedicated to him. The second issue detailed his start on She Hulk and Avengers West Coast. The third was an interview by Patrick Daniel O'Neil dealing with X-Men.
Primary Source 3: The comics themselves.
-- 66.189.63.91 01:25, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe somebody with better access to their collections can help me here.
I removed the Controversy section twice, as it has at least one falsehood (John Byrne does not hate blonde Latinas) and deals in large detail with the picayune of what characters received in the author's eyes short shrift by the article subject.
LightningMan
23:45, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone needs to do something about Byrne and his recent attempts to prevent this entry from telling the REAL story about him and his career, warts and all. Byrne, much like in the comics he ruins, is attempting to purge all mentions of his own vile activities on his message board and his substandard writing which has him disrespecting countless writers just to fuel his own narcisistic view of the industry.
In short, John Byrne made his bed and now has to sleep in it. And we shouldn't let Byrne get away with it......
Jesse Baker
Jesse, the material you are attempting to enter into this article violated our policies regarding NPOV. Our goal is to write a neutral article on Byrne, not a hatchet job. This doesn't mean that we will avoid all negative issues or controversies, just that writing it the way you apparently want is inappropriate. Inserting opinions and calling people "evil" is not appropriate for any Wikipedia article, not even Hitler's.
Also, you are close to violating the Wikipedia:Three revert rule. Please read this rule and adhere to it. Gamaliel 19:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
First of all, I am not a John Byrne fan (have only read a few of his comics since I live in Sweden and haven't really got much of an opinion on his work). I am of course not anti-Byrne either, for the same reason. I have only made a small edit here and has since had the page on my watch list, and I have to say that the constant "edit war" here is just ridiculous. All the anti-Byrne edits (and some pro-Byrne edits) make me wonder how some people can have so much time on their hands and so little life to fill that time with. Of course people are entitled to their own opinions, but when opinions are posted as fact on an encyclopedia website I can't understand when those people don't accept that their edits are removed. If you have opinions on Byrne's work and his personality, surely there must be better places where those opinions can be expressed.
And the now-infamous "goatse"-edits...*sigh*
To end my little rant here: This is an encyclopedia website. Let's try to keep in that way. Just cause you know a lot it doesn't mean you know the right stuff to include in an article. You can actually know too much - that's when you have formed an opinion on the matter that you can't avoid including in your posts. And that's when you shouldn't write it on an encyclopedia website AEriksson 21:09, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
The expanded biography appears to have been retrieved from a previous version of this page, which is fine. However, it needs to be edited for references that no longer exist.
LightningMan 23:44, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Because the Web is dynamic, it is possible that a web page used as a reference may become inactive. Do not remove such inactive references—even inactive, they still record the sources that were used. Make a note of the date that the original link was found to be inactive. If an Internet Archive copy of the page is known, add a link to that. Hiding talk 07:00, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the mention of Shooter as speculative, but these seem to be - as I mentioned in my very first message to JB - facts.
DS 12:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I didn't edit the section and the references were to later text in the section that was no longer there, not web references. LightningMan 13:11, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
So John Byrne sends a complaint to Jimbo Whales, and he immediately deletes 90% of the article? Now all of the hard work that went into it is supposed to be redone just to satisify the ranting of a man who will never be satisifed with anything.
1) Considering the things he has done post Marvel, including and especially Superman, if you're going to have a Byrne's career section, there needs to be more except...
2) While I am a fan of the guy, I believe that there are atomic scientists, humanitarians, and other figures deserving of more webspace here than a guy who draws comic books for a living (no offense to JB.) Brevity is the sole of wit and less likely to invite alterations and controversy. LightningMan 04:11, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
What on Earth is the purpose of repeatedly inserting the Controversies section, which has not been NPOV any time I have seen it? LightningMan 13:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree that given what a controversial figure Byrne is in the industry, an encyclopedia article on him should touch upon some of the more controversial episodes on that front. The only real question is how many examples should be listed, and in how much detail. For example, since Christopher Reeve was such a famous person, mentioning the flap in which Byrne stated his opinion of Reeve vis a vis the word "hero" is appropriate. So is a brief mention of some of the "feuds" or "disagreements" he's had with people like Peter David, Todd McFarlane, Jim Shooter, etc. So is the very serious behavior he exhibits on his website. In sifting through the wheat and the chaff in this manner, I don't think the Jessica Alba flap needs to make the cut, but I can understand if others may disagree. All of this can easily be included in a NPOV wording. The mere mention of this aspect of his life and career is not necessarily POV. Nightscream 9.19.05. 1:37am EST.
I cant' believe this has come up again, but once again user:Gamaliel is deleleting my comments. I request the help of everyone here to help me stop this. Whether you agree with me or not, please do not let Gamaliel censor this talk page. Wikipedia will neve work if we are not all free to take part in the discussions.-- 198.93.113.49 15:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks SoM. But the problem is Gamaliel has blocked me in the past for reverting his vandalism of my comments on the grounds that he calims my comments are insulting. The problem is that he is the final arbitrer of what is insulting. And there can be no negotionation and no discusion. Se his comment above. So please help me to revert the talk page whenever he deletes comments. If we all work together to restore each others comments when they are deleted then free discourse will still be able to take place. (see User talk: 198.93.113.49 for more info)-- 198.93.113.49 18:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to discuss what the rules aer for this page. Can we add factual content or do we need Byrnes approval? Can we revert Byrne when he deletes sections or does anything he deletes have to stay out.-- 198.93.113.49 18:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
To SoM
Hmm, I just read through the original article all this controversy seems to regard (at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=John_Byrne&oldid=20671633 if I understand it right) and I must say that it seems extremely tame, polite and to the point for such a great debacle. Compared to the general controversies I've read about these aren't presented in a particularly offensive manner.
That said, as I understand it, the matter which provokes most people is his tendency to shut himself in an environment where he ahas complete control of all information and regularly abuses this to censor anyone who proves him wrong in an argument or has a different opinion, including very high-profile comics-creators like Mark Waid. Meanwhile he chides everyone else for being 'cowards' for not entering this environment, even though it seems pretty pointless for anyone to put thought into something which will immediately get deleted. He would regain enormous amounts of goodwill if he started to play on even terms, whether with other creators, supporters, those who feel offended by his attitude, etc and relaxed somewhat with the need for absolute control. It would seem like the more mature approach.
Personally I used to find most of his quirks to be somewhat annoying, but nowhere near evil enough to warrant such obsession. The two single quotes which actually severely pissed me off were the following: "The only acceptable response, now that we are officially in a new world, is for the American government to go Old Testament on these motherfuckers. Operation Flaming Sword. Find them and kill them. And kill their wives, their children, their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. Go Super-Israel, and let them know what it =feels= like to be "at war" with the United States."
"I've been thinking this since the various lunatic cells of the IRA began loudly declaring themselves "at war" with Great Britain, imagining immediately what woud happen if the British government said "Righty-Ho, war it is!" and sent over the RAF to turn Dublin into a smoking crater."
Above he apparently supports the stance of preemptive genocide on the irish and the middle-east, which sounds very Stalin/Hitler/Hussolini/Mao/Hirohito-esque even if seemingly not an uncommon view these days. Then again, he might not have meant it and simply made the statements for effect.
If you're planning to reconstruct the Controversy section you might want to include his ongoing need for complete control to the point of absolute censorship of anyone disproving him and extremely rarely communicating with anyone unless through his forum. To my experience this seems like the main ongoing topic which annoys so many readers and professionals alike, so I was surprised to see that it was overlooked. This whole ordeal seems pretty in character for him given that background.
All the best in any case. It's too bad if you'll have to be forced into censorship, but I can see the argument that 'Yeah everyone has noticed him in the comic industry, but in the big World who cares really?', so it's obviously up to you guys.
Also thanks for helping to provide this information archive in the first place. You do great work and I find it quite useful.
David Andersson —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.230.49.157 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we get this protected again, as the last version from me? Make sure it's a totally unvandalized version, please. DS 16:01, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Of course, you could always insert useful things for content.
The idea that Byrne's controversies are irrelevant, and comparable in importance to the different foods he's eaten in life, is specious. Byrne is a public figure, and his controversial statements are one of the things for which he is well known. It is the job of an encyclopedia to relate noteworthy events in a person's life, and indeed, other articles about public figures on this site naturally devote space to discussing these episodes in their lives. Whether Byrne made the comments in question in a comic book or whether someone thinks they "define" him is beside the point, as is whether they were a small number of threads in his forum. The comments raised controversy in the public community, and for that reason, examples of some of them are relevant to mention in a biography about him. Nightscream 9.19.05. 11:16am EST
It was only after I had joined his forum that I was aware of any of these so-called controversies... I was aware of his reputation for controversial views and statements more than a decade ago, when I studied under Walter Simonson and Klaus Janson in art school. What difference does it make whether you're the Johnny-Come-Lately to the phenomena? Because you only became aware of them recently means that that's the criterion for relevance? You're personal perception, and not the many in the public?
...usually in conjunction with a few individuals who seem to have personal axes to grind with him, given the level of vitrol associated with the spreading of the controversies. Even if this were true, it does not mitigate the effect it has on public opinion on him. I have been made aware of these flaps, and did not detect any disproportionate amount of "vitriol" in discussions that were sparked about them.
And whether or not they are relevant is entirely on point. Agreed. I never said it wasn't. If you read my above post, you'll see that I said that Whether Byrne made the comments in question in a comic book or whether someone thinks they "define" him, and whether they were a small number of threads in his forum is beside the point. Not that "relevance" was beside the point. Relevance is determined by how they affect public perception of him.
When you say the public community, do you mean comic book internet message boards? Was the Christopher Reeve comment covered anywhere by any news media, even comic book news media? The news media is not the only forum in which things are made public, discussed, and public opinion can be gauged. The Internet, in fact, is one of the media, and that includes message boards, from which one can glean some idea of public perception. The same people who consume the news media are the same people who visit and post on message boards. Think about what you're saying. You're saying that something is only relevant for inclusion into the article if it was in the news media. By that logic, the article itself should not exist, since John Byrne has never (to my knowledge) been covered to any extent in the news media. Byrne's public persona is marked partially by his controversial views and statements. Just because you count yourself as one of the fans of his forum that does not like discussing him in a critical manner doesn't mean that your view of him or of what's relevant reflects the consensus of the public.
Again, I point to Justice Clarence Thomas, a figure of more substance, who does not have a Controversies section. Further proof that you didn't read my post, since I already refuted that canard. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and articles are only created and modified to the extent that there are those willing and interested in doing so. Comic book articles have an entire base of fandom to do this. It is simply possible that interest in the Supreme Court or in Thomas in particular is such that no one has done so yet. That does not mean that someone might not do so in the future. Moreover, you deliberately ignore the fact that any issues of controversey vis a vis Thomas' rulings are covered in his article in the quite lengthy section on Judicial philosophy, which covers matters regarding his rulings, his Constitutional interpretations, his divergence from the rest of the conservative wing of the court (namely Scalia), his views on affirmative action, on sodomy laws, etc. So a separate section on "Controversey" would be redundant, and indeed, the only difference between such a section and the one there now that covers such things is the word used as the heading of the section ("Judicial Philosphy" vs. "Controversy"), which just a matter of semantics. The idea, therefore, that the lack such a section for Thomas justifies omitting controversial instances from an article on Byrne, is a logical fallacy.
IMO, relevance is the key, and in particular revelance to his work. Your opinion. Not a fact, not consensus, and not reflective of public perception of Byrne. The article on Tom Cruise doesn't merely focus on his work. It details the flaps from 2005 pertaining to his romance with Katie Holmes, his odd behavior when interviewed by Oprah and Matt Lauer, and his statements about Scientology, psychiatry, addiction treatment, antidepressents, and Brooke Shields. Not just "his work." Where you get the idea that the only matierial appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia article about someone is their professional work, I don't know, but there is no basis for such an assertion, and it is not in line with generally understood and accepted purposes and precedents of encyclopedias, including this one. Nightscream 9.19.05. 3:29pm EST.
Is there a "public perception of Byrne"? To most Americans he's nobody or the guy that did Superman or the X-Men. We’re not talking about most Americans. It is obvious that we’re talking about the industry and the community in which he works, and in which he is followed by those interested in it. Why you pretend that we’re talking only about the general public, I don’t know. And this is entirely off the originally point from which you quoted me, in which you stated, "relevance is the key, and in particular revelance to his work." My response to that stands: What is relevant in encyclopedias is all information that the reader might find interesting, which is and has always been the case in encyclopedias, on A&E’s Biography, etc. Incidents like the one we’re discussing help provide insight into the subject’s personality, and how those who are familiar with him/her perceive him/her, which is most certainly relevant to a biography or ‘pedia entry on him or her. The idea that only their work is relevant, is entirely your opinion, and such reference works are not constructed on the basis of merely your opinion. You have every right to express interest or lack of interest in given pieces of information about a subject as a reader. You do not, on the other hand, have the right to use that as a criteria when contributing to the article on that subject, at least not here. What you describe is more in line with an almanac, an index, or a checklist. Not an encyclopedia.
He's not a personality in the same way an actor or other entertainer may be. It's only in the insular world of comic book fandom in the even more insular world of message board frequenters that there could even be said to be a public perception of Byrne. Your use of the word “only” is irrelevant. Since when is the comic book industry, or Internet message boards not legitimate aspects of the public media? Again, if that’s the criteria you’re using, you might as well eliminate the entire article, and for that matter, all articles on comic book creators, since most in the general public have never heard of them. What difference does it make if the subject is an actor/other entertainer or a comic book writer/artist? Simple. None.
As to your example of Tom Cruise, if I cared whether or not he had a fair article, I'd be over there excising many of the same things you cite as belonging there. And you would be utterly wrong to do so, and your vandalism would be undone. Again, neither Wikipedia nor encyclopedias in general accumulate information based on what ‘’your opinion is of what’s interesting or relevant.’’
Remember, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia entry, not a complete unauthorized biography. Just out of curiosity, why the qualifier "unauthorized"? Is that relevant somehow? Why not just argue that "this is not supposed to be a complete biography"? Simple. Because the phrase "unauthorized biography" carries a more negative connotation, stemming from its lack of cooperation with the subject, further proof that your arguments stem solely from a fan's uncritical adulation of Byrne, and not any objective viewpoint. So much for your ad hominem argument that the only ones who want a controversies section are ones with some type of ulterior motive.
Again, if any controversies are truly relevant, they should be covered in their proper place in his history. Not a bad idea, but many of these flaps don’t have a place in that history. Hence, their own section.
By that logic, the article itself should not exist, since John Byrne has never (to my knowledge) been covered to any extent in the news media.
John Byrne was in Time Magazine (March 1988, IIRC) regarding Superman. Now you’re trying to have it both ways. First you make arguments about Byrne’s entry based on the fact that the general public isn’t familiar with him. When I point out that ‘’everything’’ in the article (and about all comic creators) can be described as such, and that therefore you can just eliminate it all, you then say he was in Time magazine. Which is it, LM? Either he’s a public figure or he’s not. Either’s he’s known to the public or he’s not. I said he’s never been covered “to any extent” in the mainstream media. Did that Time article cover him “to any extent”? If it was about Superman, I doubt it. Try to keep your arguments consistent, okay? Nightscream 10.8.05. 5:15pm EST
How on earth could the article at present not be seen as neutral and factually accurate? Unless I missed something. LightningMan 17:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
We are not forced to choose betweent two extremes of POV (biased for or biased against). An NPOV article will be balanced, and balance cannot be achieved if any mention of any controversy involving Byrne is prohibited.-- 198.93.113.49 19:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
And indeed, as a Supreme Court Justice, if someone wanted to add such a section to Thomas' article, it would not be unreasonable to do so. Wikipeida is a constant work in progress, and there's nothing preventing someone from eventually adding such a section to Thomas' article, perhaps to touch upon the accusation that Thomas has little legal voice of his own, and merely parrots the conclusions of fellow Justice Antonin Scalia. The idea that a section on the numerous controversies of a person's life needs to be "justified" in an biographical article on him is to ignore the fundamental reasons for an encyclopedia in the first place. Such a section doesn't have to be justified, because its justification is self-evident; it goes with the territory of an encyclopedia. To ignore obvious point is ridiculous. Nightscream 9.19.05. 11:24 EST
I think you're doing a great job in a difficult situation. Hopefully you'll get a complete page that all can live with. LightningMan 19:38, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that someone added a comment about many fans feeling Byrne's old stuff was better and it was removed. I can understand why it might be inaproriate, but it is a very common sentiment and one that Byrne has made mention of (and his reasons for why his new stuff is in fact better) on numerous occassions. Since it is a real issue that comes up a lot (I don't know why, but it certainly does) is there a reasonable way to work in into the article perhaps with a quote from Byrne explaining why he feels his new stuff is actually better or why he thinks some fans claim his old stuff is better when it is not? This might also be tied into Byrne's thought's (via a quote) on what Byrne thinks of people who claim he dones't draw backgrounds.-- 198.93.113.49 19:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me propose working on this in a more organized fashion. I suggest we as a group focus on one part of the article at a time, starting from the beginning of his career. Once we factcheck a section we can place it back into the article, and of course revert anyone who removes it without discussion. You are free to ignore this suggestion or come up with another proposal. Gamaliel 19:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Let's focus on these paragraphs.
They seem pretty solid to me, though one poster on Byrne's board says that the Superman show was on ITV and not the BBC. My personal view is perhaps there's a bit too much trivia in here that we can cut down. Gamaliel 19:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I've often seen "Early Years" in Wiki articles referring to childhood. How about "Early Career"? That would be more specific. Nightscream 9.19.05. 11:29am EST.
I was being serious when I brought it up. The introductory paragraph specifies his birth location and then the first paragraph of this section gives a "near" location that is not the same. I would suggest that they at least match, if not have one eliminated entirely. I would be interested in what you, Haborym, have to say or anyone else. LightningMan 00:23, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Thoughts and factchecking on this would be appreciated:
Byrne was born in Walsall, England and his family moved to Canada when he was eight. His first exposure to the American superheroes that would dominate his professional life was reruns of American programs like The Adventures of Superman on British television. In Britain, he was able to read domestic comics such as The Eagle as well reprints of DC Comics. [3].
His first encounter with Marvel Comics was in 1962 with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Fantastic Four #5. He later commented that, "the book had an 'edge' like nothing DC was putting out at the time." [4] Jack Kirby's work in particular had a strong influence on Byrne and he has since chronicled many of the characters Kirby created. This included a stint on the Fantastic Four that is considered by some to be second only to Lee and Kirby's run. Besides Kirby, Byrne was also influenced by the realistic style of Neal Adams.
In 1970, Byrne enrolled at the Alberta College of Art and Design in Calgary. He created superhero parody Gay Guy for the college newspaper, which poked fun at the campus stereotype of homosexuality among art students. Gay Guy is also notable for featuring a prototype of the Alpha Flight character Snowbird. While there, he also published his first comic book, The Death's Head Knight from ACA comics. [5]
Byrne left the college in 1973 without graduating. He began working for Charlton Comics, starting with the publication of ROG-2000 in the pages of E-Man. Byrne worked on the books Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch, Doomsday +1, Space: 1999, and Emergency!.
Feedback and factchecking would be appreciated: Gamaliel
John Byrne was born in Walsall, England and his family moved to Canada when he was eight. His first exposure to the American superheroes that would dominate his professional life was reruns of American programs like The Adventures of Superman on British television. In Britain, he was able to read domestic comics such as The Eagle as well reprints of DC Comics. [6].
His first encounter with Marvel Comics was in 1962 with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Fantastic Four #5. He later commented that, "the book had an 'edge' like nothing DC was putting out at the time." [7] Jack Kirby's work in particular had a strong influence on Byrne and he has worked with many of the characters Kirby created or co-created. Besides Kirby, Byrne was also influenced by the realistic style of Neal Adams.
In 1970, Byrne enrolled at the Alberta College of Art and Design in Calgary. He created the superhero parody Gay Guy for the college newspaper which poked fun at the campus stereotype of homosexuality among art students. Gay Guy is also notable for featuring a prototype of the Alpha Flight character Snowbird. While there, he also published his first comic book, ACA Comix #1, featuring "The Death's Head Knight". [8]
Byrne left the college in 1973 without graduating. He began working for Charlton Comics, starting with the publication of ROG-2000 in the pages of E-Man. Byrne worked on the books Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch, Doomsday +1, Space: 1999, and Emergency!.
Corrected first published work and removed "second only to Lee and Kirby" line, the only reliable sourcing I could find was a quote from Byrne himself attributed to unnamed fans. -- Haborym 05:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I've decided to be bold and add this section to the article even though it is currently vandalism protected. If there are any objections to this decision or any corrections or changes that still need to be made to that section, please let me know by posting here. Gamaliel 18:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems there's a bit of redundancy here. What are everyone's thoughts on combining the two together? Gamaliel 19:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Lots of drive by changes just to be "funny". I'd freeze the page until new sections that are hashed out on the talk page are ready to be added. But that's just me. LightningMan 20:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I’m not claiming to be the “Wikipedia expert” or anything but what would be wrong with reverting the entry back to the point before Mr. Byrne first made his edit/deletions?
Then Mr. Byrne, if he so chooses, can dispute individual facts via the talk page.
It just seems like a waste of time, to me, to have the article completely recreated when a reasonable version of it already exists and is available to be posted. Especially when Mr. Byrne’s deletion of the items in question was against Wikipedia policy.
John may be alive and available for fact checking, but he has no interest in doing so. Therefore, we're left with his public message board posts and various online and print interviews and articles to draw facts from. Problem there is, John refuses stand by any statement he's ever made in print or online. If he doesn;t write it himself, it's not a fact, even if it's a direct quote from something he did write in the past. Stephen G 23:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Man, I'd really love to see a lot of the original entry back online. Quite a disappointing move by Wikipedia. This won't go down well in the blogosphere. -- Nick Douglas 05:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Lot of people take for expressions of Byrne's opinions things that are only jokes. The reason is that lot of anti-Byrne are doing their best to make people think that he's a jerk. A good exemple of that is the "Blonde latino hooker" case: Byrne was only answering the thread about Jessica Alba playing Sue Storm in the FF movie with a quick joke. She just had played a blonde hooker in Sin City (or maybe it'll be more accurate to say striper) hence the joke. That never was meant to be an offence to the latinos. Funny, i see that there's already a "Stephen G." here. Stéphane (the french for Stephen) Garrelie ( Stéphane Garrelie 00:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
How is this quote a joke? "Personal prejudice: Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair look like hookers to me, no matter how clean or "cute" they are. " Again, I think that this stuff is worthy of being a part of the man's biography since he says it in public as a public personality. 24.205.22.29 02:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Simply because it's a ref to Nancy from the sin city movie played by a blond Jessica Alba, like Sue Storm.( Stéphane Garrelie 02:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
And Anyway it was said on the tune of a joke. a quick joking answer. Not an attack against a minority. People take that faaaar too much seriously.( Stéphane Garrelie 02:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
But we already had saw the trailer of Sin City, and yes the beautiful Jessica Alba plays a striper not a hooker (see my first post, I mentioned it.). I think there was a ref to sin city in the Byrne Joke. And it was obviously a joke. "personal prejudice:" "to me" "like i said -- personal prejudice", this alone shows that it's not presented as an absolute truth. "Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair [...]. Somehow those skin tones that look so good with dark, dark hair just don't work for me with lighter shades." this part is an esthetic judgement from someone who is (maybe it would be good to not forget this point) an artist. It not a racist attack. "Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair looks like hookers to me" this part is an obvious joke. Maybe not very tasteful, but is it really necessary to always be politicaly correct? What the net made of that after is another matter. The problem if you present this in a bio of the man is that, like the use of the word "nigger" ("N-word" pffft!!!) it would be considered like a racist statement. Do you realy think that the man who had so many inter-ratial love relationships for his characters in the series whith Claremont (Misty Knight/Iron Fist), (Logan/Mariko), or the ones he wrote alone (Miss Hulk/Wyat Wingfoot), and currently I thing we can hope for something between Detective Sandra Kinckaid and Jason Blood, do you think that a man who co-plotted such stories when there were not so many minority characters in comics and no interacial couple at all if my memories don't fool me, and still does this today, is a racist? No way. What you would include in the bio is what many posters in various comics boards thought that it was when some other people presented this to them in the first place as being racist. which means that the comment would be biased. Is it relevance or not to the bio of the man? frankly I'm not sure that it's important enough to be in a bio; but the real problem IMO is how it would be presented. If there were Byrne's post and the various interpretations from the fans obviously presented as interpretations, it could be interesting. But would it be relevent to the bio of a man who is a comic book artist and writer, and not a polemist or a politician? Do you imagine the place that would be necessary to give a fair statement of the whole case? It would focus the attention of the readers on something that is secondary, to the detriment of his work. Maybe it would fit more to another article called "Fandoom and comics creators" with a link to this in the Byrne article, but nothing more.( Stéphane Garrelie 11:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
It's heresay, BTW, Alba was not blonde in Sin City (I just did an image search, so I withdrawal the statement in italics), and I think the likelyhood of JB being a rascist is about the same as him being a cannible, more than Byrne Bashers will ever have of getting a life, but significantly less than what most people consider worthy for being considered as fact.
I don't think it's relevant to an encyclopedia entry about John Byrne to put in his comments about latino women with blonde hair looking like hookers but I think it's totally ridiculous the spin loyal Byrne fan Stéphane Garrelie is using to try and explain away his comment. Nowhere in his comment does it appear to be a joke or a funny shot at Sin City and if you read the whole thread Byrne actually defends his words as being his personal opinion, nowhere does he say that it was a clever nod to Sin City.
It wasn't a quick, jokey answer as Garrelie would like you to believe and that's the problem with this whole thing. If people at the Byrne board want to accuse everyone of trying to make Byrne look like a jerk here, they are also guilty of trying to put the most positive spin on every instance of bad behavior Byrne has shown over the years. An agenda is being demonstrated by both sides.
First of all I'm not a "spin loyal Byrne fan". The Byrne board is only one of the boards on which I post, and not the first on which I registered. To say everything I didn't register until very recently because before Blood of the demon I wasn't a fan of his post-1995 work. BotD is IMO the return of Byrne to a very interesting level of quality. Second point: the Sin City source is my analysis of this joke, nothing more. Third point: what makes it a joke if you read my long post is not "Personal prejudice", it's "Hispanic and latino women with blond hairs [always] look like hookers to me" and such a sentence after Jessica Alba playing a blond striper in sin city doesn't seems un-linked to this movie. just my opinion. But it was an obvious joke in the context of posters making comment about Jessica Alba playing sue storm after having played Nancy.( Stéphane Garrelie 20:27, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
If my memories don't fool me Byrne said "makes all men looks like WOMEN", not "like queers". But I have to check the board to be sure.( Stphane Garrelie 20:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
You're wrong Stéphane, go back and look at thread again and you'll see Byrne was the first person to jump into the thread to let everyone know his "personal prejudice" there was no joking around in that thread. Somebody just started it to tell people Jessica Alba had been cast as Sue Storm. I don't remember anyone thinking what he posted was funny. Nice try though, keep spinning.
Your impression doesn't change what really happened and since you are the only person to make that connection I find your motives highly suspect.
I'm also looking at the interview Byrne did in the Comics Journal #57 and here is the direct quote about Bob Layton,
"It's like everything is greasy and slimy....and all his men are queer."
Please double check just to satisfy your own curiosity but you can't spin this one, since I can easily scan the page in and show everyone.
Your welcome to scan it. And please sign your posts (~~*~~) just remove*. I saw the "makes all men look like xxxx" on the net. on his board I think. not in a magazine. The fact that many people took the "blond hispanic hoooker" thing seriously doesn't mean that it wasn't a joke. ( Stéphane Garrelie 21:26, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
Here is the link to the Alba/Sue Storm/hispanic hooker thread: Albabyrne Make your own opinion people. I hold on my own that it's a joke+the esthetic judgement of an artist and not a racist attack against a minority or even the beautiful Jessica Alba. The controversed post is page 1 post#7 (EDIT: post #4 was an error.). For a more serious approch of what Byrne think check his many posts page 9. Stéphane Garrelie 22:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I never said It was funny. If you want my opinion it's a bad joke, but it's still a joke. On the other hand you're right about the rest of the thread. for an exemple the page 9 that I recomand is very serious and present the real opinion of Byrne and his ideas on that matter. The Joke is only the controversed post#7 by Byrne p.1(and not post#4 like I said- my bad. error corrected). Stéphane Garrelie 23:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for proving my point. Nowhere in that whole thread did Byrne say he was making a joke. If he didn't like the casting of Jessica Alba as the Invisible Girl all he had to say was she didn't fit the part. Making the comment that "all latino girls with blonde hair looks like hookers to me" is a derogatory comment and the fact that you can't see that doesn't change the meaning of his statement. Once again I will say that I don't think this stuff needs to be put into an encyclopedia entry about John Byrne but I do find it strange that you think what he said was funny.
You still forgot to sign? "Funny", thats another question. What I said was that Byrne said that on the tone of a joke. a quick joke. For what he really thinks check his many posts p.9. I've already said that but it seems that you choose to ignore its existence. Stéphane Garrelie 23:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
The Answer is that there is no "curious dichotomy" in regards to John Byrne's usage of gay characters and his real world reactions. It is a non-existant issue that has nothing to back it up. It is, basically, just rumoring and you pushing an agenda. If this were the most comprehensive listing of John Byrne ever, if this were a multi-volume study of his life, one could debate the issue you brought up, and find that, in fact, based on time and geographic location, the terms he used were not meant in a derogatory way, but rather a discriptive way. First - if you read your above quote, Byrne is not saying that "queers" are "greasy and slimy"; rather he notes that Layton's art is "greasy and slimy. AND all his men are queer." Two separate points. Next, he's not suggesting a moral problem with the nature of homosexuality, which, in fact, you'll note is a theme of his life and work - accepting homosexuality - but rather, he's describing factors of Layton's inking that give non-homosexual characters a homosexual look. "bouffant hairdos and heavy eye make-up and an upper lip with a littel [sic] shadow in the corner which to me says lipstick." You'll note that these are qualities that were added by Layton's inking, that were not there before. And they were characteristics that Byrne regarded as being common to the homosexual community. He did not suggest that Layton had some sort of agneda to make the characters "homosexual", but that the end result of Layton's inking, was that the characters looked, in fact, homosexual. But he used a term, now out-dated, "queer". The fact of this thing is that you can try all you want to make a mountain out of this molehill, but the facts and a careful study of the situation does not yeild the results you are looking for. [Mike O'Brien] 2:28pm 18 September 2005
JB talked about that on his site too some time ago I don't remember if he said "queers" or "women" this time. Anyway you seems to think that there is a dichotomy between his usage of gay characters in his stories and his real world reactions and comments about gay people. You're wrong. If you're familiar with the John Byrne Forum you know that as a counterpart to the "The boys will be boys" thread, there's a "The boys will LIKE boys" thread for his gays fans. About the usage of the word "queers" in this interview let me remind you that it is an issue from 1980 at a time when the "Politicaly Correct" wasn't the rule. That's not an attack against the gays, it's only the use of a common word from someone who talks frankly and still behaves correctly whith the homosexuals. Do you never use the word "queer"? Do the homosexuals themselves never use it? They do. Enough with the politicly correct. More frankness from everybody will be better. What is important is how you acts towards the people of a minority, racial or sexual, not the use of such or such word when it isn't intended to hurt people. Be careful in using it OK, but don't be a biggot or someone who's always afraid to say something bad when he speaks. Stéphane Garrelie 15:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe the above Comics Journal quote does not actually give evidence for an intolerance towards gay people. I believe it belies an intolerance towards Layton's inking and how that changes the look of Byrne's art. I believe that citing the interview in an attempt to justify the position of due to this dichotomy between his professional work and his personal public statements, I believe it's relevant to his biography. is original research. Hiding talk 20:44, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes he talks of Layton's inking, not of the gays. Bob Layton being my second favorite inker after Terry Austin, I can't agree with JB on this point. Stéphane Garrelie 12:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Here is another John Byrne quote from the Comic Journal #57 interview, page #82 "I'm very Victorian, Very Victorian. I have come into the 20th Century sufficiently that people don't have to get married and that faggot-queers-homos can live together as long as they don't bother me" See, I think this quote proves John Byrne has no problem with faggot-queers-homos so can we drop this and just focus on quotes that he made about his fellow co-workers. I don't think even Lightning Man would have a problem with that.-Bill Bittinger
Whatever you say, Lightning Man. Do you still want us to retract the quotes taken from the Comic Journal interviews, Lightning Man? He has appeared in 3 other issues, is it ok if we submit relevant quotes from those magazines too? It's your call, Lightning Man.-Bill Bittinger
I agree Lightning Man, I think we can all help to write an entry that will please everyone.-Bill Bittinger
I did not mean to put forward some sort of impossible standard. The previous version of the article was filled with unsourced rumor and innuendo, and of course that's inappropriate. I do admit that this is a bold experiment -- we have a strong complaint (NOT, by the way, a legal complaint) and an article which is weak on sourcing claims which are controversial.
It seems fairly straightforward to me: we build it back, referencing what we can, leaving the rest out. Whoever wrote it the first time must have gotten the information from somewhere, and we can find them and find the sources and cite the sources... or if we find that the original author added opinion beyond what is in the sources, we can fix that too. -- Jimbo Wales 01:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
A lot of the previous stuff was written by a user named JRT. I did challenge him on a lot of the material and he claimed he was going by memory from magazines from a decade or two ago. Also he reserved the right to cite an industry gossip column. Jimbo, is a gossip column a legitimate source for Wikipedia? RodOdom 02:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Edward J Cunningham is missing an interesting point: Based on his posts seen here, it's clear that he has an agenda of pointing out the negative about John Byrne. Now, a factual encyclopedic entry about John Byrne should include many aspects of the man, and not be a whitewash, I see no evidence that Cunningham wants anything but the negative aspects, and thus is showing a bias and an agenda, and is certainly fit for the type of "bannishment" that he is suggesting of "Lightning Man". However, another option presents itself: "Focus on the article". With that out of the way, let's move onto the point of the negative points. The idea has been (crudely, I might add, and more to the point of showing people's agendas more than any sort of quest for truth) suggested that all sides of John Byrne should be laid bare here for this to be a truly factual document, and thus, comments about Byrne insulting people, using rubber stamps, refusing to sign comics while using the toilet, shouting back at his hecklers, etc etc, are, according to some here and on other parts of the internet, clearly needed. However, if, in fact, the goal of adding these is to paint a clear picture, and to create a TRUE PICTURE of John Byrne, the man, the artist, the public persona, then when these stories are brought up, they should have some clear fact base, (cite sources, and hearsay is, I hope we can all agree, not a source) and should, in the interest of truth, have all aspects of the incident, both sides of it, etc. Otherwise, you are just using this supposed depository of information to attack a man, the whole reason this debacle has reached the point that it has. There is no TRUTH or INFORMATION in posting rumors or "bad stories" about a person, and no encyclopedia, which this site aspires to be, would print such nonsense. What's worse is the idea that somehow, the stories become legitimate when presented as part of a bigger arguement; for example - "John Byrne has a history of causing trouble for himself, such as the time when he..." - by adding that qualifier to the beginging of your statement, you are not suddenly legitimizing the statement, you are just adding a qualfier to your agenda. What's more, this whole concern, about getting all the warts into this article, would be a more legitimate quest if those behind it didn't have a long history of trying to besmirch John Byrne's name repeatedly on various forums, message boards, etc. It has been pointed out that John Byrne himself is to blame for this, as he is the one saying these horrible things, yet those who perpetrate the idea of how horrible they are are truly the ones who are making a situation out of it. The reaction to the comments is often as revealing as the comments themselves. One understands that a white-washing does no justice to the situation, yet on the other hand, a clear agenda to defame someone is just as foul. Those who are interested in some sort of truth, then persue TRUTH. Otherwise, resume your scribbling on bathroom walls, but do it in the proper forum for that, which should not be anything that aspires to be an Encyclopedia. - Mike O'Brien
To summarize:
None of this will change because we keep arguing about it. I'm not going to stifle the debate about these points unless it veers into personal insults, but I think hammering on this over and over again is utterly useless. Byrne will not retract his complaints because you complained. The article will not go up as is because you complained. Right now the trolls on Byrne's message board - and Byrne himself - are pointing at this page and saying "Look, we were right all along, Wikipedia is full of trolls and idiots", while the reasonable people on the board (some of whom have come here to help us) who defended us look bad, as do we. This is not the best Wiki has to offer on display. Some of you are angered by the "special treatment" you think Byrne is getting, and while your complaints are somewhat justified, all is being asked of you is that you fact and POV check the article. Considering that is exactly what we're supposed to do with every article, that's not such a huge hurdle to overcome, but I guess you'd rather argue about Jessica Alba. Gamaliel 20:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't think that everybody on the Byrne forum is against Wikipedia. I use it myself sometime, and have learned interesting things about comics creators. Things that I think accurate. The Byrne article was problematic and the existence of the anti-byrnians imature trolls can explains some parts of it. Anyway I like the Wikipedia idea and I would like to thank you Gamaliel for coming on the JBF to talk with us of this problem. I only hope the new Byrne Article when finished will be accurate. Thanks again for trying to do your best. Stéphane Garrelie 23:06, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I use Wikipedia, but I take everything here with a grain of salt, and usually if possible, fact check. — Jacob P Secrest
I think the article should specify that, on his first run on Action Comics, he was both writer and artist, but this time around he is only the artist. DS 17:03, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This article has been featured on Metafilter! -- goethean ॐ 17:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Rich Johnson's mentioned this too, along with a few other links, headline "JOHN BYRNE VS WIKIPEDIA"
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2252 (links haven't been copied, see the original for them):
It's what all the message boards have been talking about this week.
It does seem odd that by John Byrne's sledgehammer approach to tackling something he felt personally offensive and factually incorrect, he has only exacerbated the very problem he was attempting to correct.
Here are some very unflattering examples.
Let's invent some kind of sickening homily to illustrate this. Um. I know, "You open more doors with an open hand than a clenched fist." That'll do.
SoM
21:23, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
hey i was wonndering if we could start a timeline for the x-men (and other comics but i like the x-men so lets start there). there is one for the marvel universe but it is very loose in my opinion. if we can get one specific to the x-men that would be great. another option is doing one for every character seperatley. that might help for the more complex characters like wolverine.-- Jaysscholar 06:12, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
It is not reasonable to expect that people should have to check non-stop whether a Wiki article about them is NPOV and factually correct or not at a given second. It would be three full-time jobs at minimum (24h per day).
I tried to spend a small part of my summer vacation to point out the huge number of issues with the previous version of the JB article here. Part of the text was factually incorrect, part was POV, part was both. I collected incomplete but large lists about the issues.
Most of my comments were dismissed because apparently I was "biased" based on several year old discussions posted elsewhere that had absolutely nothing to do with the issues I posted here. I admit I gave up.
I'm glad the Wiki "admins" involved are now trying to improve the quality of the content. I have to wonder why it took so long, though?
Unfortunately, I'm not that optimistic about the future of this article. There's always a couple people who want to try how much POV they can get away with by claiming their goal is NPOV article.
I think it is inevitable that in future the content of Wikipedia will be more and more moderated instead of edited by anyone, anytime, in any way they wish. --Mikko 81.197.107.125 17:57, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
As one of the chief writers of this article, I have a few quick things to say.
1) The original article was IMO very well researched. Please do not dismiss it as "remembering things from magazine articles from years ago". Whenever anything I wrote delved into opinions, I always strived to maintain a NPOV and would present both sides. I never wrote a "bad" article. I did remark that Byrne was controversial, but as you can see from all the response, he pretty much /is/ controversial. I was careful to present both sides.
I should also point out that others helped me with this, including another Byrne Robotics member, who did a really good job with the Controversies section, making it NPOV. I even opposed others who tried to include a lot of Byrne's blunt quotes, which I felt was a little one-sided. But I also opposed people who wanted to say "it's only an opinion that he's controversial". Well, judging by the amount of Internet buzz that happens whenever Byrne makes a controversial statement, I see this as a fact, not a minority opinion.
2) Sources: My sources include DAVID ANTHONY KRAFT'S COMICS INTERVIEW #25, and another two issue's who's numbers escapes me--can anybody help with the issue numbers? One was an short interview with Patrick Daniel O'Neil regarding his proposed stint on X-Men, and was also printed in Wizard Magazine, this was in 1991. I would also usually use John Byrne's own FAQ and statements on his message boards, using the facts, so how can that level of detail be bad? When doubted, I even tried to error on the side of Byrne's view of the facts. (You may also want to e-mail DAK at powerhouse@rabun.net for specific issue numbers--he might even be able to provide Wikipedia with the issues or the text if you need it). Also note that Byrne has had columns on-line, in (I believe) Hero Magazine, and in his own Next Men books.
I apologize if I didn't do as good a job as quoting, but if you ask comics expects, you will see that the details of his publishing history are accurate. I should point out that much of the facts in the publishing history are pretty much covered by the primary sources, the comics themselves.
3) I am opposed to triming it down because "it's not as big as Jack Kirby's or Will Eisner's". The lack of content in those biographies can be rectified when or if somebody decides to expand upon it, which they should. (I'm waiting to read Biographies next year of Kirby and Charles Schulz and thus hope to expand on those entries as well). I just happened to have read a lot of interviews featuring Byrne. Wikipedia CAN deal with minute details because it's not limited to a 12 volume set of leather volumes. ;-)
As far as controversies go--I believe that part is fair, and it is also useful to anybody doing research on Byrne--say someone discovering Byrne's work wonders why the Internet has a lot of "trolls" towards him. I can see the article being trimmed to remove that if it's too dragged down in minutae. As far as including details of his projects--Byrne has been a bit unusual as he has left a lot of books due to editorial differences, leaving him with a lot of interrupted runs or early departures (FF, Hulk, Avengers/AWC, She-Hulk, Superman), and those researching his work may want to understand this.
-- JRT 19:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I haven't had the time or energy to do anything besides this paragraph so far. One reason is because I'm getting hung up about what and how much to say about the X-Men, and how to verify what happened behind the scenes. As always, comments, etc. are appreciated. Gamaliel 21:57, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to risk unprotection. The vandalism (much of which seems to have been generated by a single thread on the newsarama board) will probably not recurr as the vandals have had most of a week to find some bright shiny things to play with. Also, I'm kind of curious if Byrne will try deleting the article again. If anyone objects to the unprotection or the vandalism resumes, please protect the article again or get another admin to do so if I'm not around. Gamaliel 08:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure it would. That's a pretty fair statement. Let me go a step further: I believe there's no point in fixing the old article line at a time - the article was not composed in a NPOV way, and sublte as it may be, is slanted against Byrne. Now, what's been going on lately? Where we do bit at a time, and come to an agreement on it? That's been working just fine. The original was a flawed document to begin with, and fixing it makes less sense than just starting from scratch. Now, allow me to appologize to you; if, in fact, you're here to add your considerable wisdom about She-Hulk and John Byrne's contribution to the character, than by all means, I was rash in judging you, and I'm sorry. I think at this point, just by giving the history page a casual glance, that there are those people who clearly do have an agenda, and will misuse Wikipedia to make their bizarre points. This is not the average entry; it's like a Clinton or Bush entry, one where fans and enemies will go to greath lengths, above and beyond what is called for in this type of setting, to slander or whitewash their hero/enemy. Standard practice for a internet forum or message board, but only destructive behavior on something that aspires to be an encyclopedia. Anyway, thanks for allowing this to come around to a decent level of conversation. Look forward to hearing your input on She-Hulk. - Mike O'Brien
I'm not digging this at all. For one thing, why should there even be an Art Style section? Salvador Dali doesn't have an art style section, and he most certainly has a style. Next, "the Byrne has admitted" line is not NPOV. Admitted is a loaded word and implies that someone made an accusation. "He tends to favor large panels" is only accurate as of a certain date. With his run on JLA, he has moved to a different method, having many panels on a page, which he has found has sped up his art. As for the McCloud Triangle thing, who cares? The first and last paragraphs should have attribution. And finally, what happened to working the pieces here before they went up? A big thumbs down to this section. LightningMan 05:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
As a long-time Byrne *AND* Wikipedia fan, I've been following these events with interest. I was impressed with the original entry when I caught it a few months back. Re: the Art style section : I disagree completely with Lightning man. One of the key features that impressed me with the original entry was the in depth writing and analysis. Why would it NOT be interesting to read a paragraph or two on Byrne's art style ? Why NOT get a frief glimpse into the Mccloud triangle ? Byrne's artwork doesn't exist in a artistic vaccum. To contrast and compare is always a helpful way to get perspective on issues. in that sense I think that the Mccloud triangle was a both an enlightening, important, and interesting item to include. To put topics and items into perspective seems to me to be one a cornerstones of achiving a more neutral outlook on it. The more perspectives and viewpoints, the better. What the Dali entry does or doesn't contain is irrelevant. Other entries can be expanded at any time. If a topic is of interest or colourful or relevant to enough people, the entry will reflect that. I also find it interesting that a someone like lightningman, who I take it is a fan (like myself) would say "who cares" regarding art analysis, the McCloud issue etc. I found it interesting. Looking at the entry as a whole, I personally think you should revert back to the realier, in-depth entry and simply revise the parts that are found inaccurate.
It's important to point out that as far as I could see, the original entry never proclaimed certain viewpoints as facts, but simply reflected viewpoints of certain segments of fandom, or colleagues, etc.Any adult, thinking, reasoning person needs to be able to handle differing viewpoints. It's called free discourse. Like or not, Byrne has been a controversial figure in the comics community for decades.
In Summary, no serious Wiki entry on him could leave that aspect of his career out, IMO. That's neither biased, nor libel, nor unfounded. I believe strongly in the Wiki concept. And thus I would hate to see it get watered down by outside pressure or strongarm tactics. I believe Byrne's silence when asked for specifics in this matter is very telling. I'll be happy to contribute to further discussion or help if needed. -- JLPicard 06:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Byrne has every right to take the position he's chosen. Unfortunately, he can't win against a sea of haters unless he ignores them. Wikipedia is the guilty party here.
I can't follow this whole discussion since I haven't seen the article as it appeared before Byrne made his deletions, but I can comment on the (brief) article as it appears now. I think it is nice and accurate, with just one exception. It says: "His inking style was generally seen as crude by comics fans" - this is something I would like to dispute. Back when Byrne was on top of his game, every comic fan I know agreed with me that Byrne himself was by far the best inker for his own pencils. Many people consider FF #243, for instance, Byrne's best work. Yes, Dick Giordano and Karl Kesel looked pretty good on Byrne's pencils, but the reason they were there were twofold: to save Byrne time, so he could do more pencils, and to put DC's mark on the work using their own well-established top inkers. At least that's the way I figure it.
Of course, in later years Byrne's art has deteriorated a great deal, and now he does need a good inker in order to look rally good. The Nelson inks on the current Action Comics are making Byrne's work look far better than it has in years.
Other than that I'd just like to say that I think Byrne is probably the single most important U.S. comics creator other than Lee & Kirby, and I would like to see this acknowledged in any reasonably objective Wikipedia article about him. He has worked on almost every significant character, done consistently good work (well, up until Wonder Woman anyway), and used a superior art style that has enthused millions of comic book readers and influenced a generation of comic book artists, for all practical purposes defining the gold standard of what mainstream superhero comics should look like.
John Byrne has tried to be a Jack Kirby for the modern era, and the way I see it, he has generally succeeded. Unfortunately he has not been able to change with the times, and in the '90s and '00s his art style has become simplistic and self-indulgent, and his stories have often lacked the excitement and intelligence of yore. Furthermore, his uncompromising, bad temper has caused him to become known as a bitter old man who, again just like Kirby, has failed to keep up with the changing times.
- Tue Sorensen
Agenda much? The complaints on Byrne's board about reprinting of the work by Marvel had nothing to do with the inks, but rather the fact that the pages were clearly photocopied... to the point where you could see the pages behind it coming through. Your words make it clear that you have a clear anti-Byrne agenda, and bias, and should not be participating in any sort of serious historical discussion of the man.
Mike O'Brien
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Okay, I had no idea Byrne would get so upset over the message I left him; I felt it was reasonably polite and low-key, and by "actual facts" I was referring to the lengthy biography and bibliography which had both been deleted (why delete, for instance, the section on his She-Hulk run? I liked his She-Hulk run). I do apologize, both to Mr Byrne for any hurt feelings, and to Jimbo and the Wikimedia Foundation as a whole for any difficulties that may arise from this.
sigh - DS 21:36, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry. Byrne's bark is worse that his bite.
He's mainly frustrated because he doesn't wield the same control on his entry at Wikipedia as he does on his own, creator-dedicated forum -- which is only right, after all.
Byrne also detests aliasing in forum participation: he feels people should use their real names when expressing their opinions. Can't say I disagree with this.
Your article intermixes facts with opinions, and is presented in an authoritative manner which tends to blur this distinction. Perhaps this is because -- in John Byrne's case -- it is impossible to discuss the man's work without discussing the man ... something which is quite possible to do with another comic book creator name of Steve Ditko who keeps an extremely low profile and prefers to let his work speak for itself.
At any rate, Byrne should not be allowed to simply delete entire segments of the article any more than historians should be allowed to censor history. Opinions have as much merit as facts if they can be substantiated. So, for example, if you're going to present the Byrne / Shooter relationship in unvarnished detail, please reference this information so the reader can formulate his or her own opinion.
I think the article is pretty good, by the way. It is surprisingly up to date. However, I think its contents would be more balanced if there was more in it about those people that Byrne helped along or inspired in his career. Mike Mignola, if memory serves, got to launch his Hellboy in the pages of Next Men. Had Byrne not allowed this, we might not have had one Hellboy Movie and another in the works. There is also the former illustrator Vic Bridges who contributed to Image Comics a few years ago (for Erik Larsen's Freak Force, I think) and whose style was very clearly inspired by John Byrne's work on X-Men.
Thanks for your efforts and, please, don't let John Byrne intimidate you.
Jesusgarcia 22:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
John Byrne has complained that this article contains a lot of falsehoods, rumors, innuendo, etc. He has not yet given me specific details of what that means. But I read through the article and while it was pretty good, it was filled with a lot of 'weasel words' like "Some say..."
I'd like to see facts added back into the article (the facts from the parts I have removed for now) with exquisite attention to sourcing every little thing. If we don't have a source for it, don't say it. No speculation, no opinion, no editorializing. Shining clean pure neutrality with a hard hard look at sources.
-- Jimbo Wales 01:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
As one of the original expanders of the article, I can state that I had at least a few specific sources:
Primary Source 1: John Byrne's own site. Facts such as his first work can be viewed in the gallery, such as the "Gay Guy" and early snowbird features. Much of the facts of his run come from his own faq.
Primary Source 2: Three Comics Interview Issues, I wish I could remember the issue numbers. I think the first issues were solely dedicated to him. The second issue detailed his start on She Hulk and Avengers West Coast. The third was an interview by Patrick Daniel O'Neil dealing with X-Men.
Primary Source 3: The comics themselves.
-- 66.189.63.91 01:25, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe somebody with better access to their collections can help me here.
I removed the Controversy section twice, as it has at least one falsehood (John Byrne does not hate blonde Latinas) and deals in large detail with the picayune of what characters received in the author's eyes short shrift by the article subject.
LightningMan
23:45, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone needs to do something about Byrne and his recent attempts to prevent this entry from telling the REAL story about him and his career, warts and all. Byrne, much like in the comics he ruins, is attempting to purge all mentions of his own vile activities on his message board and his substandard writing which has him disrespecting countless writers just to fuel his own narcisistic view of the industry.
In short, John Byrne made his bed and now has to sleep in it. And we shouldn't let Byrne get away with it......
Jesse Baker
Jesse, the material you are attempting to enter into this article violated our policies regarding NPOV. Our goal is to write a neutral article on Byrne, not a hatchet job. This doesn't mean that we will avoid all negative issues or controversies, just that writing it the way you apparently want is inappropriate. Inserting opinions and calling people "evil" is not appropriate for any Wikipedia article, not even Hitler's.
Also, you are close to violating the Wikipedia:Three revert rule. Please read this rule and adhere to it. Gamaliel 19:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
First of all, I am not a John Byrne fan (have only read a few of his comics since I live in Sweden and haven't really got much of an opinion on his work). I am of course not anti-Byrne either, for the same reason. I have only made a small edit here and has since had the page on my watch list, and I have to say that the constant "edit war" here is just ridiculous. All the anti-Byrne edits (and some pro-Byrne edits) make me wonder how some people can have so much time on their hands and so little life to fill that time with. Of course people are entitled to their own opinions, but when opinions are posted as fact on an encyclopedia website I can't understand when those people don't accept that their edits are removed. If you have opinions on Byrne's work and his personality, surely there must be better places where those opinions can be expressed.
And the now-infamous "goatse"-edits...*sigh*
To end my little rant here: This is an encyclopedia website. Let's try to keep in that way. Just cause you know a lot it doesn't mean you know the right stuff to include in an article. You can actually know too much - that's when you have formed an opinion on the matter that you can't avoid including in your posts. And that's when you shouldn't write it on an encyclopedia website AEriksson 21:09, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
The expanded biography appears to have been retrieved from a previous version of this page, which is fine. However, it needs to be edited for references that no longer exist.
LightningMan 23:44, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Because the Web is dynamic, it is possible that a web page used as a reference may become inactive. Do not remove such inactive references—even inactive, they still record the sources that were used. Make a note of the date that the original link was found to be inactive. If an Internet Archive copy of the page is known, add a link to that. Hiding talk 07:00, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the mention of Shooter as speculative, but these seem to be - as I mentioned in my very first message to JB - facts.
DS 12:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I didn't edit the section and the references were to later text in the section that was no longer there, not web references. LightningMan 13:11, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
So John Byrne sends a complaint to Jimbo Whales, and he immediately deletes 90% of the article? Now all of the hard work that went into it is supposed to be redone just to satisify the ranting of a man who will never be satisifed with anything.
1) Considering the things he has done post Marvel, including and especially Superman, if you're going to have a Byrne's career section, there needs to be more except...
2) While I am a fan of the guy, I believe that there are atomic scientists, humanitarians, and other figures deserving of more webspace here than a guy who draws comic books for a living (no offense to JB.) Brevity is the sole of wit and less likely to invite alterations and controversy. LightningMan 04:11, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
What on Earth is the purpose of repeatedly inserting the Controversies section, which has not been NPOV any time I have seen it? LightningMan 13:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree that given what a controversial figure Byrne is in the industry, an encyclopedia article on him should touch upon some of the more controversial episodes on that front. The only real question is how many examples should be listed, and in how much detail. For example, since Christopher Reeve was such a famous person, mentioning the flap in which Byrne stated his opinion of Reeve vis a vis the word "hero" is appropriate. So is a brief mention of some of the "feuds" or "disagreements" he's had with people like Peter David, Todd McFarlane, Jim Shooter, etc. So is the very serious behavior he exhibits on his website. In sifting through the wheat and the chaff in this manner, I don't think the Jessica Alba flap needs to make the cut, but I can understand if others may disagree. All of this can easily be included in a NPOV wording. The mere mention of this aspect of his life and career is not necessarily POV. Nightscream 9.19.05. 1:37am EST.
I cant' believe this has come up again, but once again user:Gamaliel is deleleting my comments. I request the help of everyone here to help me stop this. Whether you agree with me or not, please do not let Gamaliel censor this talk page. Wikipedia will neve work if we are not all free to take part in the discussions.-- 198.93.113.49 15:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks SoM. But the problem is Gamaliel has blocked me in the past for reverting his vandalism of my comments on the grounds that he calims my comments are insulting. The problem is that he is the final arbitrer of what is insulting. And there can be no negotionation and no discusion. Se his comment above. So please help me to revert the talk page whenever he deletes comments. If we all work together to restore each others comments when they are deleted then free discourse will still be able to take place. (see User talk: 198.93.113.49 for more info)-- 198.93.113.49 18:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to discuss what the rules aer for this page. Can we add factual content or do we need Byrnes approval? Can we revert Byrne when he deletes sections or does anything he deletes have to stay out.-- 198.93.113.49 18:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
To SoM
Hmm, I just read through the original article all this controversy seems to regard (at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=John_Byrne&oldid=20671633 if I understand it right) and I must say that it seems extremely tame, polite and to the point for such a great debacle. Compared to the general controversies I've read about these aren't presented in a particularly offensive manner.
That said, as I understand it, the matter which provokes most people is his tendency to shut himself in an environment where he ahas complete control of all information and regularly abuses this to censor anyone who proves him wrong in an argument or has a different opinion, including very high-profile comics-creators like Mark Waid. Meanwhile he chides everyone else for being 'cowards' for not entering this environment, even though it seems pretty pointless for anyone to put thought into something which will immediately get deleted. He would regain enormous amounts of goodwill if he started to play on even terms, whether with other creators, supporters, those who feel offended by his attitude, etc and relaxed somewhat with the need for absolute control. It would seem like the more mature approach.
Personally I used to find most of his quirks to be somewhat annoying, but nowhere near evil enough to warrant such obsession. The two single quotes which actually severely pissed me off were the following: "The only acceptable response, now that we are officially in a new world, is for the American government to go Old Testament on these motherfuckers. Operation Flaming Sword. Find them and kill them. And kill their wives, their children, their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. Go Super-Israel, and let them know what it =feels= like to be "at war" with the United States."
"I've been thinking this since the various lunatic cells of the IRA began loudly declaring themselves "at war" with Great Britain, imagining immediately what woud happen if the British government said "Righty-Ho, war it is!" and sent over the RAF to turn Dublin into a smoking crater."
Above he apparently supports the stance of preemptive genocide on the irish and the middle-east, which sounds very Stalin/Hitler/Hussolini/Mao/Hirohito-esque even if seemingly not an uncommon view these days. Then again, he might not have meant it and simply made the statements for effect.
If you're planning to reconstruct the Controversy section you might want to include his ongoing need for complete control to the point of absolute censorship of anyone disproving him and extremely rarely communicating with anyone unless through his forum. To my experience this seems like the main ongoing topic which annoys so many readers and professionals alike, so I was surprised to see that it was overlooked. This whole ordeal seems pretty in character for him given that background.
All the best in any case. It's too bad if you'll have to be forced into censorship, but I can see the argument that 'Yeah everyone has noticed him in the comic industry, but in the big World who cares really?', so it's obviously up to you guys.
Also thanks for helping to provide this information archive in the first place. You do great work and I find it quite useful.
David Andersson —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.230.49.157 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we get this protected again, as the last version from me? Make sure it's a totally unvandalized version, please. DS 16:01, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Of course, you could always insert useful things for content.
The idea that Byrne's controversies are irrelevant, and comparable in importance to the different foods he's eaten in life, is specious. Byrne is a public figure, and his controversial statements are one of the things for which he is well known. It is the job of an encyclopedia to relate noteworthy events in a person's life, and indeed, other articles about public figures on this site naturally devote space to discussing these episodes in their lives. Whether Byrne made the comments in question in a comic book or whether someone thinks they "define" him is beside the point, as is whether they were a small number of threads in his forum. The comments raised controversy in the public community, and for that reason, examples of some of them are relevant to mention in a biography about him. Nightscream 9.19.05. 11:16am EST
It was only after I had joined his forum that I was aware of any of these so-called controversies... I was aware of his reputation for controversial views and statements more than a decade ago, when I studied under Walter Simonson and Klaus Janson in art school. What difference does it make whether you're the Johnny-Come-Lately to the phenomena? Because you only became aware of them recently means that that's the criterion for relevance? You're personal perception, and not the many in the public?
...usually in conjunction with a few individuals who seem to have personal axes to grind with him, given the level of vitrol associated with the spreading of the controversies. Even if this were true, it does not mitigate the effect it has on public opinion on him. I have been made aware of these flaps, and did not detect any disproportionate amount of "vitriol" in discussions that were sparked about them.
And whether or not they are relevant is entirely on point. Agreed. I never said it wasn't. If you read my above post, you'll see that I said that Whether Byrne made the comments in question in a comic book or whether someone thinks they "define" him, and whether they were a small number of threads in his forum is beside the point. Not that "relevance" was beside the point. Relevance is determined by how they affect public perception of him.
When you say the public community, do you mean comic book internet message boards? Was the Christopher Reeve comment covered anywhere by any news media, even comic book news media? The news media is not the only forum in which things are made public, discussed, and public opinion can be gauged. The Internet, in fact, is one of the media, and that includes message boards, from which one can glean some idea of public perception. The same people who consume the news media are the same people who visit and post on message boards. Think about what you're saying. You're saying that something is only relevant for inclusion into the article if it was in the news media. By that logic, the article itself should not exist, since John Byrne has never (to my knowledge) been covered to any extent in the news media. Byrne's public persona is marked partially by his controversial views and statements. Just because you count yourself as one of the fans of his forum that does not like discussing him in a critical manner doesn't mean that your view of him or of what's relevant reflects the consensus of the public.
Again, I point to Justice Clarence Thomas, a figure of more substance, who does not have a Controversies section. Further proof that you didn't read my post, since I already refuted that canard. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and articles are only created and modified to the extent that there are those willing and interested in doing so. Comic book articles have an entire base of fandom to do this. It is simply possible that interest in the Supreme Court or in Thomas in particular is such that no one has done so yet. That does not mean that someone might not do so in the future. Moreover, you deliberately ignore the fact that any issues of controversey vis a vis Thomas' rulings are covered in his article in the quite lengthy section on Judicial philosophy, which covers matters regarding his rulings, his Constitutional interpretations, his divergence from the rest of the conservative wing of the court (namely Scalia), his views on affirmative action, on sodomy laws, etc. So a separate section on "Controversey" would be redundant, and indeed, the only difference between such a section and the one there now that covers such things is the word used as the heading of the section ("Judicial Philosphy" vs. "Controversy"), which just a matter of semantics. The idea, therefore, that the lack such a section for Thomas justifies omitting controversial instances from an article on Byrne, is a logical fallacy.
IMO, relevance is the key, and in particular revelance to his work. Your opinion. Not a fact, not consensus, and not reflective of public perception of Byrne. The article on Tom Cruise doesn't merely focus on his work. It details the flaps from 2005 pertaining to his romance with Katie Holmes, his odd behavior when interviewed by Oprah and Matt Lauer, and his statements about Scientology, psychiatry, addiction treatment, antidepressents, and Brooke Shields. Not just "his work." Where you get the idea that the only matierial appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia article about someone is their professional work, I don't know, but there is no basis for such an assertion, and it is not in line with generally understood and accepted purposes and precedents of encyclopedias, including this one. Nightscream 9.19.05. 3:29pm EST.
Is there a "public perception of Byrne"? To most Americans he's nobody or the guy that did Superman or the X-Men. We’re not talking about most Americans. It is obvious that we’re talking about the industry and the community in which he works, and in which he is followed by those interested in it. Why you pretend that we’re talking only about the general public, I don’t know. And this is entirely off the originally point from which you quoted me, in which you stated, "relevance is the key, and in particular revelance to his work." My response to that stands: What is relevant in encyclopedias is all information that the reader might find interesting, which is and has always been the case in encyclopedias, on A&E’s Biography, etc. Incidents like the one we’re discussing help provide insight into the subject’s personality, and how those who are familiar with him/her perceive him/her, which is most certainly relevant to a biography or ‘pedia entry on him or her. The idea that only their work is relevant, is entirely your opinion, and such reference works are not constructed on the basis of merely your opinion. You have every right to express interest or lack of interest in given pieces of information about a subject as a reader. You do not, on the other hand, have the right to use that as a criteria when contributing to the article on that subject, at least not here. What you describe is more in line with an almanac, an index, or a checklist. Not an encyclopedia.
He's not a personality in the same way an actor or other entertainer may be. It's only in the insular world of comic book fandom in the even more insular world of message board frequenters that there could even be said to be a public perception of Byrne. Your use of the word “only” is irrelevant. Since when is the comic book industry, or Internet message boards not legitimate aspects of the public media? Again, if that’s the criteria you’re using, you might as well eliminate the entire article, and for that matter, all articles on comic book creators, since most in the general public have never heard of them. What difference does it make if the subject is an actor/other entertainer or a comic book writer/artist? Simple. None.
As to your example of Tom Cruise, if I cared whether or not he had a fair article, I'd be over there excising many of the same things you cite as belonging there. And you would be utterly wrong to do so, and your vandalism would be undone. Again, neither Wikipedia nor encyclopedias in general accumulate information based on what ‘’your opinion is of what’s interesting or relevant.’’
Remember, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia entry, not a complete unauthorized biography. Just out of curiosity, why the qualifier "unauthorized"? Is that relevant somehow? Why not just argue that "this is not supposed to be a complete biography"? Simple. Because the phrase "unauthorized biography" carries a more negative connotation, stemming from its lack of cooperation with the subject, further proof that your arguments stem solely from a fan's uncritical adulation of Byrne, and not any objective viewpoint. So much for your ad hominem argument that the only ones who want a controversies section are ones with some type of ulterior motive.
Again, if any controversies are truly relevant, they should be covered in their proper place in his history. Not a bad idea, but many of these flaps don’t have a place in that history. Hence, their own section.
By that logic, the article itself should not exist, since John Byrne has never (to my knowledge) been covered to any extent in the news media.
John Byrne was in Time Magazine (March 1988, IIRC) regarding Superman. Now you’re trying to have it both ways. First you make arguments about Byrne’s entry based on the fact that the general public isn’t familiar with him. When I point out that ‘’everything’’ in the article (and about all comic creators) can be described as such, and that therefore you can just eliminate it all, you then say he was in Time magazine. Which is it, LM? Either he’s a public figure or he’s not. Either’s he’s known to the public or he’s not. I said he’s never been covered “to any extent” in the mainstream media. Did that Time article cover him “to any extent”? If it was about Superman, I doubt it. Try to keep your arguments consistent, okay? Nightscream 10.8.05. 5:15pm EST
How on earth could the article at present not be seen as neutral and factually accurate? Unless I missed something. LightningMan 17:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
We are not forced to choose betweent two extremes of POV (biased for or biased against). An NPOV article will be balanced, and balance cannot be achieved if any mention of any controversy involving Byrne is prohibited.-- 198.93.113.49 19:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
And indeed, as a Supreme Court Justice, if someone wanted to add such a section to Thomas' article, it would not be unreasonable to do so. Wikipeida is a constant work in progress, and there's nothing preventing someone from eventually adding such a section to Thomas' article, perhaps to touch upon the accusation that Thomas has little legal voice of his own, and merely parrots the conclusions of fellow Justice Antonin Scalia. The idea that a section on the numerous controversies of a person's life needs to be "justified" in an biographical article on him is to ignore the fundamental reasons for an encyclopedia in the first place. Such a section doesn't have to be justified, because its justification is self-evident; it goes with the territory of an encyclopedia. To ignore obvious point is ridiculous. Nightscream 9.19.05. 11:24 EST
I think you're doing a great job in a difficult situation. Hopefully you'll get a complete page that all can live with. LightningMan 19:38, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that someone added a comment about many fans feeling Byrne's old stuff was better and it was removed. I can understand why it might be inaproriate, but it is a very common sentiment and one that Byrne has made mention of (and his reasons for why his new stuff is in fact better) on numerous occassions. Since it is a real issue that comes up a lot (I don't know why, but it certainly does) is there a reasonable way to work in into the article perhaps with a quote from Byrne explaining why he feels his new stuff is actually better or why he thinks some fans claim his old stuff is better when it is not? This might also be tied into Byrne's thought's (via a quote) on what Byrne thinks of people who claim he dones't draw backgrounds.-- 198.93.113.49 19:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me propose working on this in a more organized fashion. I suggest we as a group focus on one part of the article at a time, starting from the beginning of his career. Once we factcheck a section we can place it back into the article, and of course revert anyone who removes it without discussion. You are free to ignore this suggestion or come up with another proposal. Gamaliel 19:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Let's focus on these paragraphs.
They seem pretty solid to me, though one poster on Byrne's board says that the Superman show was on ITV and not the BBC. My personal view is perhaps there's a bit too much trivia in here that we can cut down. Gamaliel 19:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I've often seen "Early Years" in Wiki articles referring to childhood. How about "Early Career"? That would be more specific. Nightscream 9.19.05. 11:29am EST.
I was being serious when I brought it up. The introductory paragraph specifies his birth location and then the first paragraph of this section gives a "near" location that is not the same. I would suggest that they at least match, if not have one eliminated entirely. I would be interested in what you, Haborym, have to say or anyone else. LightningMan 00:23, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Thoughts and factchecking on this would be appreciated:
Byrne was born in Walsall, England and his family moved to Canada when he was eight. His first exposure to the American superheroes that would dominate his professional life was reruns of American programs like The Adventures of Superman on British television. In Britain, he was able to read domestic comics such as The Eagle as well reprints of DC Comics. [3].
His first encounter with Marvel Comics was in 1962 with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Fantastic Four #5. He later commented that, "the book had an 'edge' like nothing DC was putting out at the time." [4] Jack Kirby's work in particular had a strong influence on Byrne and he has since chronicled many of the characters Kirby created. This included a stint on the Fantastic Four that is considered by some to be second only to Lee and Kirby's run. Besides Kirby, Byrne was also influenced by the realistic style of Neal Adams.
In 1970, Byrne enrolled at the Alberta College of Art and Design in Calgary. He created superhero parody Gay Guy for the college newspaper, which poked fun at the campus stereotype of homosexuality among art students. Gay Guy is also notable for featuring a prototype of the Alpha Flight character Snowbird. While there, he also published his first comic book, The Death's Head Knight from ACA comics. [5]
Byrne left the college in 1973 without graduating. He began working for Charlton Comics, starting with the publication of ROG-2000 in the pages of E-Man. Byrne worked on the books Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch, Doomsday +1, Space: 1999, and Emergency!.
Feedback and factchecking would be appreciated: Gamaliel
John Byrne was born in Walsall, England and his family moved to Canada when he was eight. His first exposure to the American superheroes that would dominate his professional life was reruns of American programs like The Adventures of Superman on British television. In Britain, he was able to read domestic comics such as The Eagle as well reprints of DC Comics. [6].
His first encounter with Marvel Comics was in 1962 with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Fantastic Four #5. He later commented that, "the book had an 'edge' like nothing DC was putting out at the time." [7] Jack Kirby's work in particular had a strong influence on Byrne and he has worked with many of the characters Kirby created or co-created. Besides Kirby, Byrne was also influenced by the realistic style of Neal Adams.
In 1970, Byrne enrolled at the Alberta College of Art and Design in Calgary. He created the superhero parody Gay Guy for the college newspaper which poked fun at the campus stereotype of homosexuality among art students. Gay Guy is also notable for featuring a prototype of the Alpha Flight character Snowbird. While there, he also published his first comic book, ACA Comix #1, featuring "The Death's Head Knight". [8]
Byrne left the college in 1973 without graduating. He began working for Charlton Comics, starting with the publication of ROG-2000 in the pages of E-Man. Byrne worked on the books Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch, Doomsday +1, Space: 1999, and Emergency!.
Corrected first published work and removed "second only to Lee and Kirby" line, the only reliable sourcing I could find was a quote from Byrne himself attributed to unnamed fans. -- Haborym 05:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I've decided to be bold and add this section to the article even though it is currently vandalism protected. If there are any objections to this decision or any corrections or changes that still need to be made to that section, please let me know by posting here. Gamaliel 18:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems there's a bit of redundancy here. What are everyone's thoughts on combining the two together? Gamaliel 19:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Lots of drive by changes just to be "funny". I'd freeze the page until new sections that are hashed out on the talk page are ready to be added. But that's just me. LightningMan 20:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I’m not claiming to be the “Wikipedia expert” or anything but what would be wrong with reverting the entry back to the point before Mr. Byrne first made his edit/deletions?
Then Mr. Byrne, if he so chooses, can dispute individual facts via the talk page.
It just seems like a waste of time, to me, to have the article completely recreated when a reasonable version of it already exists and is available to be posted. Especially when Mr. Byrne’s deletion of the items in question was against Wikipedia policy.
John may be alive and available for fact checking, but he has no interest in doing so. Therefore, we're left with his public message board posts and various online and print interviews and articles to draw facts from. Problem there is, John refuses stand by any statement he's ever made in print or online. If he doesn;t write it himself, it's not a fact, even if it's a direct quote from something he did write in the past. Stephen G 23:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Man, I'd really love to see a lot of the original entry back online. Quite a disappointing move by Wikipedia. This won't go down well in the blogosphere. -- Nick Douglas 05:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Lot of people take for expressions of Byrne's opinions things that are only jokes. The reason is that lot of anti-Byrne are doing their best to make people think that he's a jerk. A good exemple of that is the "Blonde latino hooker" case: Byrne was only answering the thread about Jessica Alba playing Sue Storm in the FF movie with a quick joke. She just had played a blonde hooker in Sin City (or maybe it'll be more accurate to say striper) hence the joke. That never was meant to be an offence to the latinos. Funny, i see that there's already a "Stephen G." here. Stéphane (the french for Stephen) Garrelie ( Stéphane Garrelie 00:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
How is this quote a joke? "Personal prejudice: Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair look like hookers to me, no matter how clean or "cute" they are. " Again, I think that this stuff is worthy of being a part of the man's biography since he says it in public as a public personality. 24.205.22.29 02:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Simply because it's a ref to Nancy from the sin city movie played by a blond Jessica Alba, like Sue Storm.( Stéphane Garrelie 02:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
And Anyway it was said on the tune of a joke. a quick joking answer. Not an attack against a minority. People take that faaaar too much seriously.( Stéphane Garrelie 02:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
But we already had saw the trailer of Sin City, and yes the beautiful Jessica Alba plays a striper not a hooker (see my first post, I mentioned it.). I think there was a ref to sin city in the Byrne Joke. And it was obviously a joke. "personal prejudice:" "to me" "like i said -- personal prejudice", this alone shows that it's not presented as an absolute truth. "Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair [...]. Somehow those skin tones that look so good with dark, dark hair just don't work for me with lighter shades." this part is an esthetic judgement from someone who is (maybe it would be good to not forget this point) an artist. It not a racist attack. "Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair looks like hookers to me" this part is an obvious joke. Maybe not very tasteful, but is it really necessary to always be politicaly correct? What the net made of that after is another matter. The problem if you present this in a bio of the man is that, like the use of the word "nigger" ("N-word" pffft!!!) it would be considered like a racist statement. Do you realy think that the man who had so many inter-ratial love relationships for his characters in the series whith Claremont (Misty Knight/Iron Fist), (Logan/Mariko), or the ones he wrote alone (Miss Hulk/Wyat Wingfoot), and currently I thing we can hope for something between Detective Sandra Kinckaid and Jason Blood, do you think that a man who co-plotted such stories when there were not so many minority characters in comics and no interacial couple at all if my memories don't fool me, and still does this today, is a racist? No way. What you would include in the bio is what many posters in various comics boards thought that it was when some other people presented this to them in the first place as being racist. which means that the comment would be biased. Is it relevance or not to the bio of the man? frankly I'm not sure that it's important enough to be in a bio; but the real problem IMO is how it would be presented. If there were Byrne's post and the various interpretations from the fans obviously presented as interpretations, it could be interesting. But would it be relevent to the bio of a man who is a comic book artist and writer, and not a polemist or a politician? Do you imagine the place that would be necessary to give a fair statement of the whole case? It would focus the attention of the readers on something that is secondary, to the detriment of his work. Maybe it would fit more to another article called "Fandoom and comics creators" with a link to this in the Byrne article, but nothing more.( Stéphane Garrelie 11:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
It's heresay, BTW, Alba was not blonde in Sin City (I just did an image search, so I withdrawal the statement in italics), and I think the likelyhood of JB being a rascist is about the same as him being a cannible, more than Byrne Bashers will ever have of getting a life, but significantly less than what most people consider worthy for being considered as fact.
I don't think it's relevant to an encyclopedia entry about John Byrne to put in his comments about latino women with blonde hair looking like hookers but I think it's totally ridiculous the spin loyal Byrne fan Stéphane Garrelie is using to try and explain away his comment. Nowhere in his comment does it appear to be a joke or a funny shot at Sin City and if you read the whole thread Byrne actually defends his words as being his personal opinion, nowhere does he say that it was a clever nod to Sin City.
It wasn't a quick, jokey answer as Garrelie would like you to believe and that's the problem with this whole thing. If people at the Byrne board want to accuse everyone of trying to make Byrne look like a jerk here, they are also guilty of trying to put the most positive spin on every instance of bad behavior Byrne has shown over the years. An agenda is being demonstrated by both sides.
First of all I'm not a "spin loyal Byrne fan". The Byrne board is only one of the boards on which I post, and not the first on which I registered. To say everything I didn't register until very recently because before Blood of the demon I wasn't a fan of his post-1995 work. BotD is IMO the return of Byrne to a very interesting level of quality. Second point: the Sin City source is my analysis of this joke, nothing more. Third point: what makes it a joke if you read my long post is not "Personal prejudice", it's "Hispanic and latino women with blond hairs [always] look like hookers to me" and such a sentence after Jessica Alba playing a blond striper in sin city doesn't seems un-linked to this movie. just my opinion. But it was an obvious joke in the context of posters making comment about Jessica Alba playing sue storm after having played Nancy.( Stéphane Garrelie 20:27, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
If my memories don't fool me Byrne said "makes all men looks like WOMEN", not "like queers". But I have to check the board to be sure.( Stphane Garrelie 20:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
You're wrong Stéphane, go back and look at thread again and you'll see Byrne was the first person to jump into the thread to let everyone know his "personal prejudice" there was no joking around in that thread. Somebody just started it to tell people Jessica Alba had been cast as Sue Storm. I don't remember anyone thinking what he posted was funny. Nice try though, keep spinning.
Your impression doesn't change what really happened and since you are the only person to make that connection I find your motives highly suspect.
I'm also looking at the interview Byrne did in the Comics Journal #57 and here is the direct quote about Bob Layton,
"It's like everything is greasy and slimy....and all his men are queer."
Please double check just to satisfy your own curiosity but you can't spin this one, since I can easily scan the page in and show everyone.
Your welcome to scan it. And please sign your posts (~~*~~) just remove*. I saw the "makes all men look like xxxx" on the net. on his board I think. not in a magazine. The fact that many people took the "blond hispanic hoooker" thing seriously doesn't mean that it wasn't a joke. ( Stéphane Garrelie 21:26, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
Here is the link to the Alba/Sue Storm/hispanic hooker thread: Albabyrne Make your own opinion people. I hold on my own that it's a joke+the esthetic judgement of an artist and not a racist attack against a minority or even the beautiful Jessica Alba. The controversed post is page 1 post#7 (EDIT: post #4 was an error.). For a more serious approch of what Byrne think check his many posts page 9. Stéphane Garrelie 22:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I never said It was funny. If you want my opinion it's a bad joke, but it's still a joke. On the other hand you're right about the rest of the thread. for an exemple the page 9 that I recomand is very serious and present the real opinion of Byrne and his ideas on that matter. The Joke is only the controversed post#7 by Byrne p.1(and not post#4 like I said- my bad. error corrected). Stéphane Garrelie 23:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for proving my point. Nowhere in that whole thread did Byrne say he was making a joke. If he didn't like the casting of Jessica Alba as the Invisible Girl all he had to say was she didn't fit the part. Making the comment that "all latino girls with blonde hair looks like hookers to me" is a derogatory comment and the fact that you can't see that doesn't change the meaning of his statement. Once again I will say that I don't think this stuff needs to be put into an encyclopedia entry about John Byrne but I do find it strange that you think what he said was funny.
You still forgot to sign? "Funny", thats another question. What I said was that Byrne said that on the tone of a joke. a quick joke. For what he really thinks check his many posts p.9. I've already said that but it seems that you choose to ignore its existence. Stéphane Garrelie 23:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
The Answer is that there is no "curious dichotomy" in regards to John Byrne's usage of gay characters and his real world reactions. It is a non-existant issue that has nothing to back it up. It is, basically, just rumoring and you pushing an agenda. If this were the most comprehensive listing of John Byrne ever, if this were a multi-volume study of his life, one could debate the issue you brought up, and find that, in fact, based on time and geographic location, the terms he used were not meant in a derogatory way, but rather a discriptive way. First - if you read your above quote, Byrne is not saying that "queers" are "greasy and slimy"; rather he notes that Layton's art is "greasy and slimy. AND all his men are queer." Two separate points. Next, he's not suggesting a moral problem with the nature of homosexuality, which, in fact, you'll note is a theme of his life and work - accepting homosexuality - but rather, he's describing factors of Layton's inking that give non-homosexual characters a homosexual look. "bouffant hairdos and heavy eye make-up and an upper lip with a littel [sic] shadow in the corner which to me says lipstick." You'll note that these are qualities that were added by Layton's inking, that were not there before. And they were characteristics that Byrne regarded as being common to the homosexual community. He did not suggest that Layton had some sort of agneda to make the characters "homosexual", but that the end result of Layton's inking, was that the characters looked, in fact, homosexual. But he used a term, now out-dated, "queer". The fact of this thing is that you can try all you want to make a mountain out of this molehill, but the facts and a careful study of the situation does not yeild the results you are looking for. [Mike O'Brien] 2:28pm 18 September 2005
JB talked about that on his site too some time ago I don't remember if he said "queers" or "women" this time. Anyway you seems to think that there is a dichotomy between his usage of gay characters in his stories and his real world reactions and comments about gay people. You're wrong. If you're familiar with the John Byrne Forum you know that as a counterpart to the "The boys will be boys" thread, there's a "The boys will LIKE boys" thread for his gays fans. About the usage of the word "queers" in this interview let me remind you that it is an issue from 1980 at a time when the "Politicaly Correct" wasn't the rule. That's not an attack against the gays, it's only the use of a common word from someone who talks frankly and still behaves correctly whith the homosexuals. Do you never use the word "queer"? Do the homosexuals themselves never use it? They do. Enough with the politicly correct. More frankness from everybody will be better. What is important is how you acts towards the people of a minority, racial or sexual, not the use of such or such word when it isn't intended to hurt people. Be careful in using it OK, but don't be a biggot or someone who's always afraid to say something bad when he speaks. Stéphane Garrelie 15:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe the above Comics Journal quote does not actually give evidence for an intolerance towards gay people. I believe it belies an intolerance towards Layton's inking and how that changes the look of Byrne's art. I believe that citing the interview in an attempt to justify the position of due to this dichotomy between his professional work and his personal public statements, I believe it's relevant to his biography. is original research. Hiding talk 20:44, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes he talks of Layton's inking, not of the gays. Bob Layton being my second favorite inker after Terry Austin, I can't agree with JB on this point. Stéphane Garrelie 12:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Here is another John Byrne quote from the Comic Journal #57 interview, page #82 "I'm very Victorian, Very Victorian. I have come into the 20th Century sufficiently that people don't have to get married and that faggot-queers-homos can live together as long as they don't bother me" See, I think this quote proves John Byrne has no problem with faggot-queers-homos so can we drop this and just focus on quotes that he made about his fellow co-workers. I don't think even Lightning Man would have a problem with that.-Bill Bittinger
Whatever you say, Lightning Man. Do you still want us to retract the quotes taken from the Comic Journal interviews, Lightning Man? He has appeared in 3 other issues, is it ok if we submit relevant quotes from those magazines too? It's your call, Lightning Man.-Bill Bittinger
I agree Lightning Man, I think we can all help to write an entry that will please everyone.-Bill Bittinger
I did not mean to put forward some sort of impossible standard. The previous version of the article was filled with unsourced rumor and innuendo, and of course that's inappropriate. I do admit that this is a bold experiment -- we have a strong complaint (NOT, by the way, a legal complaint) and an article which is weak on sourcing claims which are controversial.
It seems fairly straightforward to me: we build it back, referencing what we can, leaving the rest out. Whoever wrote it the first time must have gotten the information from somewhere, and we can find them and find the sources and cite the sources... or if we find that the original author added opinion beyond what is in the sources, we can fix that too. -- Jimbo Wales 01:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
A lot of the previous stuff was written by a user named JRT. I did challenge him on a lot of the material and he claimed he was going by memory from magazines from a decade or two ago. Also he reserved the right to cite an industry gossip column. Jimbo, is a gossip column a legitimate source for Wikipedia? RodOdom 02:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Edward J Cunningham is missing an interesting point: Based on his posts seen here, it's clear that he has an agenda of pointing out the negative about John Byrne. Now, a factual encyclopedic entry about John Byrne should include many aspects of the man, and not be a whitewash, I see no evidence that Cunningham wants anything but the negative aspects, and thus is showing a bias and an agenda, and is certainly fit for the type of "bannishment" that he is suggesting of "Lightning Man". However, another option presents itself: "Focus on the article". With that out of the way, let's move onto the point of the negative points. The idea has been (crudely, I might add, and more to the point of showing people's agendas more than any sort of quest for truth) suggested that all sides of John Byrne should be laid bare here for this to be a truly factual document, and thus, comments about Byrne insulting people, using rubber stamps, refusing to sign comics while using the toilet, shouting back at his hecklers, etc etc, are, according to some here and on other parts of the internet, clearly needed. However, if, in fact, the goal of adding these is to paint a clear picture, and to create a TRUE PICTURE of John Byrne, the man, the artist, the public persona, then when these stories are brought up, they should have some clear fact base, (cite sources, and hearsay is, I hope we can all agree, not a source) and should, in the interest of truth, have all aspects of the incident, both sides of it, etc. Otherwise, you are just using this supposed depository of information to attack a man, the whole reason this debacle has reached the point that it has. There is no TRUTH or INFORMATION in posting rumors or "bad stories" about a person, and no encyclopedia, which this site aspires to be, would print such nonsense. What's worse is the idea that somehow, the stories become legitimate when presented as part of a bigger arguement; for example - "John Byrne has a history of causing trouble for himself, such as the time when he..." - by adding that qualifier to the beginging of your statement, you are not suddenly legitimizing the statement, you are just adding a qualfier to your agenda. What's more, this whole concern, about getting all the warts into this article, would be a more legitimate quest if those behind it didn't have a long history of trying to besmirch John Byrne's name repeatedly on various forums, message boards, etc. It has been pointed out that John Byrne himself is to blame for this, as he is the one saying these horrible things, yet those who perpetrate the idea of how horrible they are are truly the ones who are making a situation out of it. The reaction to the comments is often as revealing as the comments themselves. One understands that a white-washing does no justice to the situation, yet on the other hand, a clear agenda to defame someone is just as foul. Those who are interested in some sort of truth, then persue TRUTH. Otherwise, resume your scribbling on bathroom walls, but do it in the proper forum for that, which should not be anything that aspires to be an Encyclopedia. - Mike O'Brien
To summarize:
None of this will change because we keep arguing about it. I'm not going to stifle the debate about these points unless it veers into personal insults, but I think hammering on this over and over again is utterly useless. Byrne will not retract his complaints because you complained. The article will not go up as is because you complained. Right now the trolls on Byrne's message board - and Byrne himself - are pointing at this page and saying "Look, we were right all along, Wikipedia is full of trolls and idiots", while the reasonable people on the board (some of whom have come here to help us) who defended us look bad, as do we. This is not the best Wiki has to offer on display. Some of you are angered by the "special treatment" you think Byrne is getting, and while your complaints are somewhat justified, all is being asked of you is that you fact and POV check the article. Considering that is exactly what we're supposed to do with every article, that's not such a huge hurdle to overcome, but I guess you'd rather argue about Jessica Alba. Gamaliel 20:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't think that everybody on the Byrne forum is against Wikipedia. I use it myself sometime, and have learned interesting things about comics creators. Things that I think accurate. The Byrne article was problematic and the existence of the anti-byrnians imature trolls can explains some parts of it. Anyway I like the Wikipedia idea and I would like to thank you Gamaliel for coming on the JBF to talk with us of this problem. I only hope the new Byrne Article when finished will be accurate. Thanks again for trying to do your best. Stéphane Garrelie 23:06, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I use Wikipedia, but I take everything here with a grain of salt, and usually if possible, fact check. — Jacob P Secrest
I think the article should specify that, on his first run on Action Comics, he was both writer and artist, but this time around he is only the artist. DS 17:03, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This article has been featured on Metafilter! -- goethean ॐ 17:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Rich Johnson's mentioned this too, along with a few other links, headline "JOHN BYRNE VS WIKIPEDIA"
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2252 (links haven't been copied, see the original for them):
It's what all the message boards have been talking about this week.
It does seem odd that by John Byrne's sledgehammer approach to tackling something he felt personally offensive and factually incorrect, he has only exacerbated the very problem he was attempting to correct.
Here are some very unflattering examples.
Let's invent some kind of sickening homily to illustrate this. Um. I know, "You open more doors with an open hand than a clenched fist." That'll do.
SoM
21:23, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
hey i was wonndering if we could start a timeline for the x-men (and other comics but i like the x-men so lets start there). there is one for the marvel universe but it is very loose in my opinion. if we can get one specific to the x-men that would be great. another option is doing one for every character seperatley. that might help for the more complex characters like wolverine.-- Jaysscholar 06:12, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
It is not reasonable to expect that people should have to check non-stop whether a Wiki article about them is NPOV and factually correct or not at a given second. It would be three full-time jobs at minimum (24h per day).
I tried to spend a small part of my summer vacation to point out the huge number of issues with the previous version of the JB article here. Part of the text was factually incorrect, part was POV, part was both. I collected incomplete but large lists about the issues.
Most of my comments were dismissed because apparently I was "biased" based on several year old discussions posted elsewhere that had absolutely nothing to do with the issues I posted here. I admit I gave up.
I'm glad the Wiki "admins" involved are now trying to improve the quality of the content. I have to wonder why it took so long, though?
Unfortunately, I'm not that optimistic about the future of this article. There's always a couple people who want to try how much POV they can get away with by claiming their goal is NPOV article.
I think it is inevitable that in future the content of Wikipedia will be more and more moderated instead of edited by anyone, anytime, in any way they wish. --Mikko 81.197.107.125 17:57, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
As one of the chief writers of this article, I have a few quick things to say.
1) The original article was IMO very well researched. Please do not dismiss it as "remembering things from magazine articles from years ago". Whenever anything I wrote delved into opinions, I always strived to maintain a NPOV and would present both sides. I never wrote a "bad" article. I did remark that Byrne was controversial, but as you can see from all the response, he pretty much /is/ controversial. I was careful to present both sides.
I should also point out that others helped me with this, including another Byrne Robotics member, who did a really good job with the Controversies section, making it NPOV. I even opposed others who tried to include a lot of Byrne's blunt quotes, which I felt was a little one-sided. But I also opposed people who wanted to say "it's only an opinion that he's controversial". Well, judging by the amount of Internet buzz that happens whenever Byrne makes a controversial statement, I see this as a fact, not a minority opinion.
2) Sources: My sources include DAVID ANTHONY KRAFT'S COMICS INTERVIEW #25, and another two issue's who's numbers escapes me--can anybody help with the issue numbers? One was an short interview with Patrick Daniel O'Neil regarding his proposed stint on X-Men, and was also printed in Wizard Magazine, this was in 1991. I would also usually use John Byrne's own FAQ and statements on his message boards, using the facts, so how can that level of detail be bad? When doubted, I even tried to error on the side of Byrne's view of the facts. (You may also want to e-mail DAK at powerhouse@rabun.net for specific issue numbers--he might even be able to provide Wikipedia with the issues or the text if you need it). Also note that Byrne has had columns on-line, in (I believe) Hero Magazine, and in his own Next Men books.
I apologize if I didn't do as good a job as quoting, but if you ask comics expects, you will see that the details of his publishing history are accurate. I should point out that much of the facts in the publishing history are pretty much covered by the primary sources, the comics themselves.
3) I am opposed to triming it down because "it's not as big as Jack Kirby's or Will Eisner's". The lack of content in those biographies can be rectified when or if somebody decides to expand upon it, which they should. (I'm waiting to read Biographies next year of Kirby and Charles Schulz and thus hope to expand on those entries as well). I just happened to have read a lot of interviews featuring Byrne. Wikipedia CAN deal with minute details because it's not limited to a 12 volume set of leather volumes. ;-)
As far as controversies go--I believe that part is fair, and it is also useful to anybody doing research on Byrne--say someone discovering Byrne's work wonders why the Internet has a lot of "trolls" towards him. I can see the article being trimmed to remove that if it's too dragged down in minutae. As far as including details of his projects--Byrne has been a bit unusual as he has left a lot of books due to editorial differences, leaving him with a lot of interrupted runs or early departures (FF, Hulk, Avengers/AWC, She-Hulk, Superman), and those researching his work may want to understand this.
-- JRT 19:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I haven't had the time or energy to do anything besides this paragraph so far. One reason is because I'm getting hung up about what and how much to say about the X-Men, and how to verify what happened behind the scenes. As always, comments, etc. are appreciated. Gamaliel 21:57, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to risk unprotection. The vandalism (much of which seems to have been generated by a single thread on the newsarama board) will probably not recurr as the vandals have had most of a week to find some bright shiny things to play with. Also, I'm kind of curious if Byrne will try deleting the article again. If anyone objects to the unprotection or the vandalism resumes, please protect the article again or get another admin to do so if I'm not around. Gamaliel 08:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure it would. That's a pretty fair statement. Let me go a step further: I believe there's no point in fixing the old article line at a time - the article was not composed in a NPOV way, and sublte as it may be, is slanted against Byrne. Now, what's been going on lately? Where we do bit at a time, and come to an agreement on it? That's been working just fine. The original was a flawed document to begin with, and fixing it makes less sense than just starting from scratch. Now, allow me to appologize to you; if, in fact, you're here to add your considerable wisdom about She-Hulk and John Byrne's contribution to the character, than by all means, I was rash in judging you, and I'm sorry. I think at this point, just by giving the history page a casual glance, that there are those people who clearly do have an agenda, and will misuse Wikipedia to make their bizarre points. This is not the average entry; it's like a Clinton or Bush entry, one where fans and enemies will go to greath lengths, above and beyond what is called for in this type of setting, to slander or whitewash their hero/enemy. Standard practice for a internet forum or message board, but only destructive behavior on something that aspires to be an encyclopedia. Anyway, thanks for allowing this to come around to a decent level of conversation. Look forward to hearing your input on She-Hulk. - Mike O'Brien
I'm not digging this at all. For one thing, why should there even be an Art Style section? Salvador Dali doesn't have an art style section, and he most certainly has a style. Next, "the Byrne has admitted" line is not NPOV. Admitted is a loaded word and implies that someone made an accusation. "He tends to favor large panels" is only accurate as of a certain date. With his run on JLA, he has moved to a different method, having many panels on a page, which he has found has sped up his art. As for the McCloud Triangle thing, who cares? The first and last paragraphs should have attribution. And finally, what happened to working the pieces here before they went up? A big thumbs down to this section. LightningMan 05:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
As a long-time Byrne *AND* Wikipedia fan, I've been following these events with interest. I was impressed with the original entry when I caught it a few months back. Re: the Art style section : I disagree completely with Lightning man. One of the key features that impressed me with the original entry was the in depth writing and analysis. Why would it NOT be interesting to read a paragraph or two on Byrne's art style ? Why NOT get a frief glimpse into the Mccloud triangle ? Byrne's artwork doesn't exist in a artistic vaccum. To contrast and compare is always a helpful way to get perspective on issues. in that sense I think that the Mccloud triangle was a both an enlightening, important, and interesting item to include. To put topics and items into perspective seems to me to be one a cornerstones of achiving a more neutral outlook on it. The more perspectives and viewpoints, the better. What the Dali entry does or doesn't contain is irrelevant. Other entries can be expanded at any time. If a topic is of interest or colourful or relevant to enough people, the entry will reflect that. I also find it interesting that a someone like lightningman, who I take it is a fan (like myself) would say "who cares" regarding art analysis, the McCloud issue etc. I found it interesting. Looking at the entry as a whole, I personally think you should revert back to the realier, in-depth entry and simply revise the parts that are found inaccurate.
It's important to point out that as far as I could see, the original entry never proclaimed certain viewpoints as facts, but simply reflected viewpoints of certain segments of fandom, or colleagues, etc.Any adult, thinking, reasoning person needs to be able to handle differing viewpoints. It's called free discourse. Like or not, Byrne has been a controversial figure in the comics community for decades.
In Summary, no serious Wiki entry on him could leave that aspect of his career out, IMO. That's neither biased, nor libel, nor unfounded. I believe strongly in the Wiki concept. And thus I would hate to see it get watered down by outside pressure or strongarm tactics. I believe Byrne's silence when asked for specifics in this matter is very telling. I'll be happy to contribute to further discussion or help if needed. -- JLPicard 06:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Byrne has every right to take the position he's chosen. Unfortunately, he can't win against a sea of haters unless he ignores them. Wikipedia is the guilty party here.
I can't follow this whole discussion since I haven't seen the article as it appeared before Byrne made his deletions, but I can comment on the (brief) article as it appears now. I think it is nice and accurate, with just one exception. It says: "His inking style was generally seen as crude by comics fans" - this is something I would like to dispute. Back when Byrne was on top of his game, every comic fan I know agreed with me that Byrne himself was by far the best inker for his own pencils. Many people consider FF #243, for instance, Byrne's best work. Yes, Dick Giordano and Karl Kesel looked pretty good on Byrne's pencils, but the reason they were there were twofold: to save Byrne time, so he could do more pencils, and to put DC's mark on the work using their own well-established top inkers. At least that's the way I figure it.
Of course, in later years Byrne's art has deteriorated a great deal, and now he does need a good inker in order to look rally good. The Nelson inks on the current Action Comics are making Byrne's work look far better than it has in years.
Other than that I'd just like to say that I think Byrne is probably the single most important U.S. comics creator other than Lee & Kirby, and I would like to see this acknowledged in any reasonably objective Wikipedia article about him. He has worked on almost every significant character, done consistently good work (well, up until Wonder Woman anyway), and used a superior art style that has enthused millions of comic book readers and influenced a generation of comic book artists, for all practical purposes defining the gold standard of what mainstream superhero comics should look like.
John Byrne has tried to be a Jack Kirby for the modern era, and the way I see it, he has generally succeeded. Unfortunately he has not been able to change with the times, and in the '90s and '00s his art style has become simplistic and self-indulgent, and his stories have often lacked the excitement and intelligence of yore. Furthermore, his uncompromising, bad temper has caused him to become known as a bitter old man who, again just like Kirby, has failed to keep up with the changing times.
- Tue Sorensen
Agenda much? The complaints on Byrne's board about reprinting of the work by Marvel had nothing to do with the inks, but rather the fact that the pages were clearly photocopied... to the point where you could see the pages behind it coming through. Your words make it clear that you have a clear anti-Byrne agenda, and bias, and should not be participating in any sort of serious historical discussion of the man.
Mike O'Brien