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Fichte picked up the problem of Dualism where Kant left it and sought to solve some of the epistemological and ethical concerns of the objective knowledge and the subjective reason. Fichte strove to find the certain, common ground. He argued that by not solving this problem, Kant left it open to skepticism. Fichte saw this as too materialistic, so he attempted to eliminate Kant's dualism, and, in doing so, articulated a nationalism that posited the national community as an ethical community.
Fichte's 1794, Theory of Knowledge, dealt with the problem of the dualism of subject (or freedom) and object (or determinism). He concluded that neither was grounded enough to be confident. His solution was classic idealism. Fichte approached the identity of subject and object by positing that we must think of ourselves from within in order to see that there is no dualism. He said that we must further posit an absolute ego, a creative nature, the world as subject, a conscious totality, a self-creating world with no duality. But, we cannot prove the absolute ego, so it must be posited as a regulative ideal, not a proven existing thing. Furthermore, we have an ethical duty to posit this ego, because we can only be moral by being rational and free. But, to be free, we must be a part of an absolute freedom. We must also act as if God exists, even though we cannot know, nor demonstrate this. We emulate this ideal by action, an ethical duty, that transforms the world and ourselves until we become more like the absolute ego (or God). In doing so, we see that subject and object are not isolated, but are identical. We also discover that in changing the world, we change ourselves, because we only really know the world when we act upon it and changeunion of theory and action was called " praxis"; Hegel would draw upon this ideal.
Fichte develops nationalism in Vocation of Man (1800). In this political philosophy that is a defense of the ethical community of wills, Fichte presents an ethical imperative to work for a community and against chaos. It is a compulsion to act that is a compulsion towards betterment. Each individual has a duty to will an ethical community, a universal cosmopolitan culture. This universal community based on freedom is the goal of human freedom. Fichte posits the intermediate community is the nation-state, a limited community of wills, which is no less ethical and one in which our ethical duty towards national unification is an imperative.
Fichte's Kantian view of a unified Germany is nationalism with an undertone. Fichte sees Napoleon's unification of France as "imposed" unification and, thus, opposed the French as imperialistic. He defends German nationalism and the Germans as the original people, or Ur Volk. He sees the Germans as a privileged and chosen people that must fight to prevent their corruption. He further sees the state as an ethical realization of the German people that guarantees liberty and individuality and is the embodiment of the collective will. He believed that the individual has an ethical duty to immerse himself in the state.
Fichte's nationalism is passionate; thus it does not give itself too much to philosophy. It also became a sort of secular religion for him.
Also, I think a number of claims here need to be made substantially clearer. For example, "He picked up the problem of Dualism? where Kant? left it and sought to solve some of the epistemological? and ethical? concerns of the [objective knowledge]? and the [subjective reason]?." So, where did Kant "leave" the problem of dualism, and just what does it mean to say Fichte "picked it up" there? Also, just what are the "epistemological? and ethical? concerns of the [objective knowledge]? and the [subjective reason]"? I can't tell, but I sure would like to know! -- LMS
ACK! Larry, must you make me go back and do research I've already done? :-7 Don't have my notes with me now (at work). I've got most of the warrants for my arguments written down somewhere's, but this was the short version of my write-up on Fichte. I entered it because I couldn't find my elongated version complete with quotes from both Kant and Fichte. Also, I doubt my Philosophy Prof was too concerned about my accuracy (disstressing). Thanks for the critique! -- Invictus
I agree with Larry, the above could be clarified and made useful, but it needs a bit of massaging. In the mean time, I've replaced the article with a much shorter, but hopefully slightly more clear, description of Fichte's importance to German idealism. MRC
I would be interested to know more about Schopenhauer's description of a second, absolute consciousness. It may come as a surprise that I cannot find mention of such an activity in any of Schopenhauer's writings. Lestrade 15:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade
In the third paragraph, under the category "Life and Work", the page gives a misleading representation of Fichte's influence on Schopenhauer. Schopenhauer called Fichte the father of "sham philosophy" in Book II, chapter I of "The World as Will and Representation." Aside from such rhetorical attacks, it is also clear that they differ philosophically in that Schopenhauer acknowledged the noumenon while Fichte did not. For Sch., "The Will" is the noumenon, a.k.a. the thing-in-itself.
So when it says, "In fact, Fichte achieved fame for originating the argument that consciousness is not grounded in anything outside of itself. This notion eventually became the defining characteristic of German Idealism and thus an essential underpinning to understanding the philosophies of Hegel, and of Arthur Schopenhauer . . . " This was not an essential underpinning of Sch.'s philosophy. -- 68.35.182.188 01:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a section about Fichte's theory of self-consciousness being a social phenomonon. It was a little hard to sum up without going into a lot of detail so it might be a little too hazy or vague.
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~shaked/Holocaust/lectures/lec4.html German nationalism burdened with a romantic quixotic aspect was founded by Johann Gottlieb Fichte. in 1807 -romantic nationalism; proclaimed German ethos to be the seedbed for human perfection; argued against Jewish emancipation. 1808: delivered series of ‘Addresses to the German Nation,’ rallied German-speaking people to resist French, & spoke of the superiority of the Germans. Anti-intellectual, anti-democratic sentiment woven into German fabric; destructive chauvinism http://www.ajr.org.uk/pastjournal52.htm Fichte, a fervent democrat, excluded Jews from equality. http://members.surfbest.net/shsaltzman/Dawidowicz.html Called the father of German nationalism, Fichte has also been called the father of modern German anti_Semitism. His celebration of German nationalism was matched by his denigration of Jews. In 1793 he had argued against Jewish emancipation, characterizing the Jews as a state within a state that would undermine the German nation. Jewish ideas were as obnoxious as French ideas. The only way in which he could concede giving rights to Jews, he said, would be "to cut off all their heads in one night, and to set new ones on their shoulders, which should contain not a single Jewish idea." -- Molobo 10:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC) Also a quote regarding his desire to comitt ethnic cleansing is here: [1] -- Molobo 10:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The section "Life and work" claims that Fichte published his first work anonymously for obscure reasons. This seems naïve to me. It is obvious that Fichte mimicked Kant's style and hoped to deceptively sell the book to people who thought that they would be reading Kant. The book would not have had many sales if published with an unknown author's name. Lestrade 15:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Of course, we weren't there at the time. Also, we can't read minds. All we have are probabilities and logic. We can only ask ourselves, "Would a famous professor like Kant publish an anonymous book?" It seems that the best attitude toward this topic is scepticism. Therefore, we can't make definite assertions and claims that the publisher most likely wanted the confusion in order to sell books. Lestrade ( talk) 17:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
I took the liberty to correct the sentence: "In regards to Jews getting 'rights' he wrote.." to include a more complete quote ("civil rights"). In fact Fichte wrote: "Human rights they must have, though they they don't concede those to us; because they are humans and their injustice does not give us the right to become like them... But to give them civil rights I see no means but to cut off all their heads in one night, and to set new ones on their shoulders, which should contain not a single Jewish idea"
Regarding Fichte's comments on the Jewish people, it would be more accurate to at least provide specific, concrete references to his works and writings (and even the context if possible). Hence, I will try to track down where the original comments come from in Fichte's writings. Dydimus ( talk) 09:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I think it's interesting that Fichte's actual philosophy has been substantially edited out of the article on him, with the author actually saying that Fichte's writings aren't understandable. But there's a section on anti-semitism. Yay! Folks don't have the time to actually read and understand what he wrote but you do have the time to label him a hardcore anti-semite. In "The Romantic Imperative"by Frederick C. Beiser, it's revealed that Fichte was in fact one of the staunchest supporters of the French Revolution during the late 18th and early 19th century and only came around to ultra-nationalism later in life. But Beiser is a German, so who can trust him? Anti-semitism the whole way!!!! Balabanikov ( talk) 02:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Professional philosophers detest psychology with a visceral, burning contempt and hatred. Why isn't Fichte disparaged by them? Next to Berkeley, his philosophy is the utmost in subjectivity and idealism. Lestrade ( talk) 23:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
Aren't words the most important means of communication here? The title of Fichte's Wissenschaftslehre is commonly mistranslated as Science of Logic. Its correct translation is Doctrine of Science or Science of Knowledge. "Die Wissenschaft" means "science," "learning," or "knowledge." "Die Lehre" means "doctrine," "teaching," or even "science." There is no translation of any of these words to mean "logic." The Germans have decided to use "Die Logik" to mean "logic." The article should consistently use either the completely erroneous common mistranslation or the correct translation. Lestrade ( talk) 16:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)Lestrade
In the "Fichte's philosophical writings" section, there is reference to "'things in themselves', the supra-sensible reality beyond the categories of human reason." Anyone who has opened Kant's book knows that the Kantian categories are pure concepts of the understanding and have nothing to do with reason. Lestrade ( talk) 20:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)Lestrade
His biography needs to reference the atheism dispute, where charges of atheisms forced him to resign from the university at jenna. Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi was involved in the dispute and I have started to add it to his page. لسلام عليكم - يونس الوجدي گونزاليس ( talk) 22:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Darkstar1: Since Google Books doesn't allow me to read p. 70 of the cited book, you will have to provide a longer quotation here, because I suspect that your interpretation is a misrepresentation of the source. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 09:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I can find several places that seem to agree that Fichte is one of the fathers of german nationalism, so that doesn't seem to be fringe. However, only this one person seems to have called him "the true author of National Socialism" so that claim has to be seen as a fringe claim, I think. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 10:11, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The article translates "setzen" as "set." It is usually translated, in articles about German Idealism, as "posit" in the sense of "postulate" or "assume the existence of." Fichte and the German Idealists were prolific positers. Lestrade ( talk) 19:10, 12 September 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
I just deleted the criticism section, which was very small and extremely vague, and added this comment: "Criticism is extremely vague, so I am deleting it. It consists of merely one author classifying a group of thinkers as the basis for......x (in this case, authoritarianism). We've seen it all before, cf. Walter Kaufmann's chapter on Popper's view of Hegel in his From Hegel to Existentialism." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caute AF ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I reverted this edit: such extraordinary claims require solid evidence, and a quotation from an unrelated book (Carolyn Burdett, Olive Schreiner and the progress of feminism: evolution, gender, empire, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, p. 70) does not suffice. It could be argued that many elements of German nationalism paved the way for National Socialism, but calling him the "author" thereof is quite a leap.
There's obviously a lot more to be said--there's plenty of sourcing for a big fat paragraph on the use of Fichte by Nazi ideologists (same with Nietzsche, as Sluga points out) and what that has done for his reputation. But it's late. Drmies ( talk) 06:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I can only repeat that if there are suitable sources dealing with Fichte's influence on Nazism, real or alleged, then they ought to be included in the article. The IP's comment above ("Dabbing on guilt by association on random people, alive or dead, isn't very encyclopaedic") doesn't amount to a rational argument, and doesn't seem to need any rebuttal. Obviously, Fichte is a major historical figure, not a "random" person. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 20:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Transactions and Encounters: Science and Culture in the Nineteenth Century Roger Luckhurst, Josephine McDonagh Manchester University Press, 2002, p222 also makes reference to the claim, w/footnote citing the source. Darkstar1st ( talk) 10:27, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Metapolitics: From Wagner and the German Romantics to Hitler, original edition 1941 Knopf, new edition 2004, p194
I was recently Allen W. Wood's book Fichte's Ethical Thought (2016) where he discusses the adoption of Fitche by the Nazis: "Over a century later, and under very different circumstances, the German idealism of the Addresses was notoriously appealed to by the Nazis. It is reported, for instance, that Leni Riefenstahl chose the works of Fichte to give her beloved Furher as a birthday present. Such ugly associations still haunt Fichte's legacy. Given the monstrous role played by German nationalism in the first half of the twentieth century, it is difficult for us to think back to a time when German national pride could have taken more innocent forms. To me it seems absurd to describe Fichte - or anyone in a world that was still over a hundred years removed from twentieth-century horrors - as a Nazi or proto-Nazi. But this has been one quite common emotional reaction to Fichte's Addresses. This reaction appeals to those looking for an easy way of attesting to their own purity of mind by distancing themselves from anything that could conceivably bear the taint of Nazism - especially to those who have barely heard of Fichte and know little else about him" (25-26).
I think the nationalism section should be severely edited or mostly scrapped. It relies almost entirely on one author (Anderson) who did not even write primarily on Fichte. I'm going to attempt to improve the section. 2607:FEA8:620:4F2:F491:3D2C:A747:72B8 ( talk) 06:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
I recently edited the nationalism section to reflect the most recent Fichte scholarship. Hopefully the changes will satisfy everyone here. To summarize the changes: (1) the contents of the Address to the German Nation are more clearly summarized, (2) Fichte's adoption by Nazi thinkers and the way in which this coloured readings of his nationalism in the post-war period is discussed, (3) the contemporary scholarship and its views on Fichte's nationalism and his supposed antisemitism are discussed with both sides of the argument being laid out. Hopefully this will make everyone happy. 2607:FEA8:620:4F2:F491:3D2C:A747:72B8 ( talk) 07:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
(Advance apologies for making two new sections). This article needs some attention from a serious Fichte scholar. I've fixed the nationalism section to the best of my ability, but the sections on the main aspects of Fichte's philosophy are astoundingly bad. There is no serious discussion of Fichte's philosophy of right or his ethical system, which were the only two parts of his philosophy which were completed. His Science is considered by some contemporary Fichte scholars to be incomprehensible in places because it was never finished; that's not a slight against Fichte, just an observation that its weird the article focuses on his incomplete work but makes no mention of the parts of his system which were complete. In fairness this is not surprising - because historically scholars gave Fichte's Science undo priority over his over works - but it does need to be fixed. I would do more but I'm not a Fichte scholar, just some grad student in unrelated areas of philosophy. 2607:FEA8:620:4F2:F491:3D2C:A747:72B8 ( talk) 07:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does the tone of the Nationalism section come across as a thesis-driven persuasive essay defending Fichte from accusations of having an ideology like the Nazis'? Some sentences are phrased as if they are responding to accusations, and to some extent the subsection's structure is too.
Take this sentence: "Furthermore, his nationalism was not aroused by Prussian military defeat and humiliation, for these had not yet occurred, but resulted from his own humanitarian philosophy." I have a few concerns: (1) who claimed that his nationalism came from Prussian military defeat and humiliation? If somebody did, then we should cite them; if not, why include the sentence? (2) Calling his philosophy "humanitarian" strikes me like an endorsement of, or at least compliment to, his philosophy -- like calling his philosophy "benevolent."
A minor example is the phrasing "The nationalism propounded by Fichte in the Addresses would be used over a century later by the Nazi Party." Calling it "over a century later" sounds like the kind of phrasing I would use to emphasize the distance Fichte from the Nazis rather than a neutral description.
The most egregious example is at the end: "While recent scholarship has sought to dissociate Fichte's writings on nationalism with their adoption by the Nazi Party, the association continues to blight his legacy, although Fichte, as if to exclude all ground of doubt, clearly and distinctly prohibits [...] genocide and other crimes against humanity." Why do we need to assert that he "clearly and distinctly" opposes genocide? Again, it feels like defending against an accusation.
Maybe it is totally fine that the section is written in this tone/framing, IDK. But it strikes me as inconsistent with NPOV. GregConan ( talk) 04:25, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
many people consider him the father of nationalism and some attribute him to the Nazi regime itself while I myself may not be the best judge as the official opposition being loyalist and proudly so, but I would ask this can't he be the father a nationalism willingly and that the Nazi Germany unwillingly surely Johann was not present and had a view far superior as a man of God and nature than that lot? I offer some of his work but he is undisputed Ly the father of nationalism that Germans, Americans, and other hold so dear and deserve mention as perhaps thee Master of German enlightenment. Here's his own words.
What So, let there appear before you at last in complete clearness what we have meant
by Germans, as we have so far described them. The true criterion is this: do you believe in something absolutely primary and original in man himself, in freedom, in endless improvement, in the eternal progress of our race, or do you not believe in all this, but rather imagine that you clearly perceive and comprehend that the opposite of all this takes place? All who either are themselves alive and creative and productive of new things, or who, should this not have fallen to their lot, at any rate definitely abandon the things of naught and stand on the watch for the stream of original life to lay hold of them somewhere, or who, should they not even be so far advanced as this, at least have an inkling of freedom and do not hate it or take fright at it, but on the contrary love it—all these are original men; they are, when considered as a people, an original people, the people simply, Germans. All who resign themselves to being something secondary and derivative, and who distinc- tly know and comprehend that they are such, are so in fact, and become ever more so because of this belief of theirs; they are an appendix to the life which bestirred itself of its own accord before them or beside them; they are an echo resounding from the rock, an echo of a voice already silent; they are, considered as a people, outside the original people, and to the latter they are strangers and foreigners.And a bit later Fichte adds that: […] whoever believes in spirituality and in the freedom of this spirituality, and who wills the eternal development of this spirituality by freedom, wherever he may have been born and whatever language he speaks, is of our blood; he is one of us, and will come over to our side. Whoever believes in stagnation, retrogression, and the round dance of which we spoke, or who sets a dead nature at the helm of the world’s government, wherever he may have been born and whatever language he speaks, is non-German and a stranger to us; and it is to be wished that he would separate himself from us completely, and the sooner the better [Fichte, (5)]8"" . TheEngineofProvidence ( talk) 14:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@ TheEngineofProvidence: I'm not at all sure what you're trying to ask here — your command of English appears limited. I will point out two things:
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Fichte picked up the problem of Dualism where Kant left it and sought to solve some of the epistemological and ethical concerns of the objective knowledge and the subjective reason. Fichte strove to find the certain, common ground. He argued that by not solving this problem, Kant left it open to skepticism. Fichte saw this as too materialistic, so he attempted to eliminate Kant's dualism, and, in doing so, articulated a nationalism that posited the national community as an ethical community.
Fichte's 1794, Theory of Knowledge, dealt with the problem of the dualism of subject (or freedom) and object (or determinism). He concluded that neither was grounded enough to be confident. His solution was classic idealism. Fichte approached the identity of subject and object by positing that we must think of ourselves from within in order to see that there is no dualism. He said that we must further posit an absolute ego, a creative nature, the world as subject, a conscious totality, a self-creating world with no duality. But, we cannot prove the absolute ego, so it must be posited as a regulative ideal, not a proven existing thing. Furthermore, we have an ethical duty to posit this ego, because we can only be moral by being rational and free. But, to be free, we must be a part of an absolute freedom. We must also act as if God exists, even though we cannot know, nor demonstrate this. We emulate this ideal by action, an ethical duty, that transforms the world and ourselves until we become more like the absolute ego (or God). In doing so, we see that subject and object are not isolated, but are identical. We also discover that in changing the world, we change ourselves, because we only really know the world when we act upon it and changeunion of theory and action was called " praxis"; Hegel would draw upon this ideal.
Fichte develops nationalism in Vocation of Man (1800). In this political philosophy that is a defense of the ethical community of wills, Fichte presents an ethical imperative to work for a community and against chaos. It is a compulsion to act that is a compulsion towards betterment. Each individual has a duty to will an ethical community, a universal cosmopolitan culture. This universal community based on freedom is the goal of human freedom. Fichte posits the intermediate community is the nation-state, a limited community of wills, which is no less ethical and one in which our ethical duty towards national unification is an imperative.
Fichte's Kantian view of a unified Germany is nationalism with an undertone. Fichte sees Napoleon's unification of France as "imposed" unification and, thus, opposed the French as imperialistic. He defends German nationalism and the Germans as the original people, or Ur Volk. He sees the Germans as a privileged and chosen people that must fight to prevent their corruption. He further sees the state as an ethical realization of the German people that guarantees liberty and individuality and is the embodiment of the collective will. He believed that the individual has an ethical duty to immerse himself in the state.
Fichte's nationalism is passionate; thus it does not give itself too much to philosophy. It also became a sort of secular religion for him.
Also, I think a number of claims here need to be made substantially clearer. For example, "He picked up the problem of Dualism? where Kant? left it and sought to solve some of the epistemological? and ethical? concerns of the [objective knowledge]? and the [subjective reason]?." So, where did Kant "leave" the problem of dualism, and just what does it mean to say Fichte "picked it up" there? Also, just what are the "epistemological? and ethical? concerns of the [objective knowledge]? and the [subjective reason]"? I can't tell, but I sure would like to know! -- LMS
ACK! Larry, must you make me go back and do research I've already done? :-7 Don't have my notes with me now (at work). I've got most of the warrants for my arguments written down somewhere's, but this was the short version of my write-up on Fichte. I entered it because I couldn't find my elongated version complete with quotes from both Kant and Fichte. Also, I doubt my Philosophy Prof was too concerned about my accuracy (disstressing). Thanks for the critique! -- Invictus
I agree with Larry, the above could be clarified and made useful, but it needs a bit of massaging. In the mean time, I've replaced the article with a much shorter, but hopefully slightly more clear, description of Fichte's importance to German idealism. MRC
I would be interested to know more about Schopenhauer's description of a second, absolute consciousness. It may come as a surprise that I cannot find mention of such an activity in any of Schopenhauer's writings. Lestrade 15:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade
In the third paragraph, under the category "Life and Work", the page gives a misleading representation of Fichte's influence on Schopenhauer. Schopenhauer called Fichte the father of "sham philosophy" in Book II, chapter I of "The World as Will and Representation." Aside from such rhetorical attacks, it is also clear that they differ philosophically in that Schopenhauer acknowledged the noumenon while Fichte did not. For Sch., "The Will" is the noumenon, a.k.a. the thing-in-itself.
So when it says, "In fact, Fichte achieved fame for originating the argument that consciousness is not grounded in anything outside of itself. This notion eventually became the defining characteristic of German Idealism and thus an essential underpinning to understanding the philosophies of Hegel, and of Arthur Schopenhauer . . . " This was not an essential underpinning of Sch.'s philosophy. -- 68.35.182.188 01:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a section about Fichte's theory of self-consciousness being a social phenomonon. It was a little hard to sum up without going into a lot of detail so it might be a little too hazy or vague.
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~shaked/Holocaust/lectures/lec4.html German nationalism burdened with a romantic quixotic aspect was founded by Johann Gottlieb Fichte. in 1807 -romantic nationalism; proclaimed German ethos to be the seedbed for human perfection; argued against Jewish emancipation. 1808: delivered series of ‘Addresses to the German Nation,’ rallied German-speaking people to resist French, & spoke of the superiority of the Germans. Anti-intellectual, anti-democratic sentiment woven into German fabric; destructive chauvinism http://www.ajr.org.uk/pastjournal52.htm Fichte, a fervent democrat, excluded Jews from equality. http://members.surfbest.net/shsaltzman/Dawidowicz.html Called the father of German nationalism, Fichte has also been called the father of modern German anti_Semitism. His celebration of German nationalism was matched by his denigration of Jews. In 1793 he had argued against Jewish emancipation, characterizing the Jews as a state within a state that would undermine the German nation. Jewish ideas were as obnoxious as French ideas. The only way in which he could concede giving rights to Jews, he said, would be "to cut off all their heads in one night, and to set new ones on their shoulders, which should contain not a single Jewish idea." -- Molobo 10:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC) Also a quote regarding his desire to comitt ethnic cleansing is here: [1] -- Molobo 10:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The section "Life and work" claims that Fichte published his first work anonymously for obscure reasons. This seems naïve to me. It is obvious that Fichte mimicked Kant's style and hoped to deceptively sell the book to people who thought that they would be reading Kant. The book would not have had many sales if published with an unknown author's name. Lestrade 15:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Of course, we weren't there at the time. Also, we can't read minds. All we have are probabilities and logic. We can only ask ourselves, "Would a famous professor like Kant publish an anonymous book?" It seems that the best attitude toward this topic is scepticism. Therefore, we can't make definite assertions and claims that the publisher most likely wanted the confusion in order to sell books. Lestrade ( talk) 17:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
I took the liberty to correct the sentence: "In regards to Jews getting 'rights' he wrote.." to include a more complete quote ("civil rights"). In fact Fichte wrote: "Human rights they must have, though they they don't concede those to us; because they are humans and their injustice does not give us the right to become like them... But to give them civil rights I see no means but to cut off all their heads in one night, and to set new ones on their shoulders, which should contain not a single Jewish idea"
Regarding Fichte's comments on the Jewish people, it would be more accurate to at least provide specific, concrete references to his works and writings (and even the context if possible). Hence, I will try to track down where the original comments come from in Fichte's writings. Dydimus ( talk) 09:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I think it's interesting that Fichte's actual philosophy has been substantially edited out of the article on him, with the author actually saying that Fichte's writings aren't understandable. But there's a section on anti-semitism. Yay! Folks don't have the time to actually read and understand what he wrote but you do have the time to label him a hardcore anti-semite. In "The Romantic Imperative"by Frederick C. Beiser, it's revealed that Fichte was in fact one of the staunchest supporters of the French Revolution during the late 18th and early 19th century and only came around to ultra-nationalism later in life. But Beiser is a German, so who can trust him? Anti-semitism the whole way!!!! Balabanikov ( talk) 02:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Professional philosophers detest psychology with a visceral, burning contempt and hatred. Why isn't Fichte disparaged by them? Next to Berkeley, his philosophy is the utmost in subjectivity and idealism. Lestrade ( talk) 23:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
Aren't words the most important means of communication here? The title of Fichte's Wissenschaftslehre is commonly mistranslated as Science of Logic. Its correct translation is Doctrine of Science or Science of Knowledge. "Die Wissenschaft" means "science," "learning," or "knowledge." "Die Lehre" means "doctrine," "teaching," or even "science." There is no translation of any of these words to mean "logic." The Germans have decided to use "Die Logik" to mean "logic." The article should consistently use either the completely erroneous common mistranslation or the correct translation. Lestrade ( talk) 16:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)Lestrade
In the "Fichte's philosophical writings" section, there is reference to "'things in themselves', the supra-sensible reality beyond the categories of human reason." Anyone who has opened Kant's book knows that the Kantian categories are pure concepts of the understanding and have nothing to do with reason. Lestrade ( talk) 20:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)Lestrade
His biography needs to reference the atheism dispute, where charges of atheisms forced him to resign from the university at jenna. Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi was involved in the dispute and I have started to add it to his page. لسلام عليكم - يونس الوجدي گونزاليس ( talk) 22:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Darkstar1: Since Google Books doesn't allow me to read p. 70 of the cited book, you will have to provide a longer quotation here, because I suspect that your interpretation is a misrepresentation of the source. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 09:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I can find several places that seem to agree that Fichte is one of the fathers of german nationalism, so that doesn't seem to be fringe. However, only this one person seems to have called him "the true author of National Socialism" so that claim has to be seen as a fringe claim, I think. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 10:11, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The article translates "setzen" as "set." It is usually translated, in articles about German Idealism, as "posit" in the sense of "postulate" or "assume the existence of." Fichte and the German Idealists were prolific positers. Lestrade ( talk) 19:10, 12 September 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
I just deleted the criticism section, which was very small and extremely vague, and added this comment: "Criticism is extremely vague, so I am deleting it. It consists of merely one author classifying a group of thinkers as the basis for......x (in this case, authoritarianism). We've seen it all before, cf. Walter Kaufmann's chapter on Popper's view of Hegel in his From Hegel to Existentialism." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caute AF ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I reverted this edit: such extraordinary claims require solid evidence, and a quotation from an unrelated book (Carolyn Burdett, Olive Schreiner and the progress of feminism: evolution, gender, empire, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, p. 70) does not suffice. It could be argued that many elements of German nationalism paved the way for National Socialism, but calling him the "author" thereof is quite a leap.
There's obviously a lot more to be said--there's plenty of sourcing for a big fat paragraph on the use of Fichte by Nazi ideologists (same with Nietzsche, as Sluga points out) and what that has done for his reputation. But it's late. Drmies ( talk) 06:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I can only repeat that if there are suitable sources dealing with Fichte's influence on Nazism, real or alleged, then they ought to be included in the article. The IP's comment above ("Dabbing on guilt by association on random people, alive or dead, isn't very encyclopaedic") doesn't amount to a rational argument, and doesn't seem to need any rebuttal. Obviously, Fichte is a major historical figure, not a "random" person. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 20:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Transactions and Encounters: Science and Culture in the Nineteenth Century Roger Luckhurst, Josephine McDonagh Manchester University Press, 2002, p222 also makes reference to the claim, w/footnote citing the source. Darkstar1st ( talk) 10:27, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Metapolitics: From Wagner and the German Romantics to Hitler, original edition 1941 Knopf, new edition 2004, p194
I was recently Allen W. Wood's book Fichte's Ethical Thought (2016) where he discusses the adoption of Fitche by the Nazis: "Over a century later, and under very different circumstances, the German idealism of the Addresses was notoriously appealed to by the Nazis. It is reported, for instance, that Leni Riefenstahl chose the works of Fichte to give her beloved Furher as a birthday present. Such ugly associations still haunt Fichte's legacy. Given the monstrous role played by German nationalism in the first half of the twentieth century, it is difficult for us to think back to a time when German national pride could have taken more innocent forms. To me it seems absurd to describe Fichte - or anyone in a world that was still over a hundred years removed from twentieth-century horrors - as a Nazi or proto-Nazi. But this has been one quite common emotional reaction to Fichte's Addresses. This reaction appeals to those looking for an easy way of attesting to their own purity of mind by distancing themselves from anything that could conceivably bear the taint of Nazism - especially to those who have barely heard of Fichte and know little else about him" (25-26).
I think the nationalism section should be severely edited or mostly scrapped. It relies almost entirely on one author (Anderson) who did not even write primarily on Fichte. I'm going to attempt to improve the section. 2607:FEA8:620:4F2:F491:3D2C:A747:72B8 ( talk) 06:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
I recently edited the nationalism section to reflect the most recent Fichte scholarship. Hopefully the changes will satisfy everyone here. To summarize the changes: (1) the contents of the Address to the German Nation are more clearly summarized, (2) Fichte's adoption by Nazi thinkers and the way in which this coloured readings of his nationalism in the post-war period is discussed, (3) the contemporary scholarship and its views on Fichte's nationalism and his supposed antisemitism are discussed with both sides of the argument being laid out. Hopefully this will make everyone happy. 2607:FEA8:620:4F2:F491:3D2C:A747:72B8 ( talk) 07:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
(Advance apologies for making two new sections). This article needs some attention from a serious Fichte scholar. I've fixed the nationalism section to the best of my ability, but the sections on the main aspects of Fichte's philosophy are astoundingly bad. There is no serious discussion of Fichte's philosophy of right or his ethical system, which were the only two parts of his philosophy which were completed. His Science is considered by some contemporary Fichte scholars to be incomprehensible in places because it was never finished; that's not a slight against Fichte, just an observation that its weird the article focuses on his incomplete work but makes no mention of the parts of his system which were complete. In fairness this is not surprising - because historically scholars gave Fichte's Science undo priority over his over works - but it does need to be fixed. I would do more but I'm not a Fichte scholar, just some grad student in unrelated areas of philosophy. 2607:FEA8:620:4F2:F491:3D2C:A747:72B8 ( talk) 07:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does the tone of the Nationalism section come across as a thesis-driven persuasive essay defending Fichte from accusations of having an ideology like the Nazis'? Some sentences are phrased as if they are responding to accusations, and to some extent the subsection's structure is too.
Take this sentence: "Furthermore, his nationalism was not aroused by Prussian military defeat and humiliation, for these had not yet occurred, but resulted from his own humanitarian philosophy." I have a few concerns: (1) who claimed that his nationalism came from Prussian military defeat and humiliation? If somebody did, then we should cite them; if not, why include the sentence? (2) Calling his philosophy "humanitarian" strikes me like an endorsement of, or at least compliment to, his philosophy -- like calling his philosophy "benevolent."
A minor example is the phrasing "The nationalism propounded by Fichte in the Addresses would be used over a century later by the Nazi Party." Calling it "over a century later" sounds like the kind of phrasing I would use to emphasize the distance Fichte from the Nazis rather than a neutral description.
The most egregious example is at the end: "While recent scholarship has sought to dissociate Fichte's writings on nationalism with their adoption by the Nazi Party, the association continues to blight his legacy, although Fichte, as if to exclude all ground of doubt, clearly and distinctly prohibits [...] genocide and other crimes against humanity." Why do we need to assert that he "clearly and distinctly" opposes genocide? Again, it feels like defending against an accusation.
Maybe it is totally fine that the section is written in this tone/framing, IDK. But it strikes me as inconsistent with NPOV. GregConan ( talk) 04:25, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
many people consider him the father of nationalism and some attribute him to the Nazi regime itself while I myself may not be the best judge as the official opposition being loyalist and proudly so, but I would ask this can't he be the father a nationalism willingly and that the Nazi Germany unwillingly surely Johann was not present and had a view far superior as a man of God and nature than that lot? I offer some of his work but he is undisputed Ly the father of nationalism that Germans, Americans, and other hold so dear and deserve mention as perhaps thee Master of German enlightenment. Here's his own words.
What So, let there appear before you at last in complete clearness what we have meant
by Germans, as we have so far described them. The true criterion is this: do you believe in something absolutely primary and original in man himself, in freedom, in endless improvement, in the eternal progress of our race, or do you not believe in all this, but rather imagine that you clearly perceive and comprehend that the opposite of all this takes place? All who either are themselves alive and creative and productive of new things, or who, should this not have fallen to their lot, at any rate definitely abandon the things of naught and stand on the watch for the stream of original life to lay hold of them somewhere, or who, should they not even be so far advanced as this, at least have an inkling of freedom and do not hate it or take fright at it, but on the contrary love it—all these are original men; they are, when considered as a people, an original people, the people simply, Germans. All who resign themselves to being something secondary and derivative, and who distinc- tly know and comprehend that they are such, are so in fact, and become ever more so because of this belief of theirs; they are an appendix to the life which bestirred itself of its own accord before them or beside them; they are an echo resounding from the rock, an echo of a voice already silent; they are, considered as a people, outside the original people, and to the latter they are strangers and foreigners.And a bit later Fichte adds that: […] whoever believes in spirituality and in the freedom of this spirituality, and who wills the eternal development of this spirituality by freedom, wherever he may have been born and whatever language he speaks, is of our blood; he is one of us, and will come over to our side. Whoever believes in stagnation, retrogression, and the round dance of which we spoke, or who sets a dead nature at the helm of the world’s government, wherever he may have been born and whatever language he speaks, is non-German and a stranger to us; and it is to be wished that he would separate himself from us completely, and the sooner the better [Fichte, (5)]8"" . TheEngineofProvidence ( talk) 14:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@ TheEngineofProvidence: I'm not at all sure what you're trying to ask here — your command of English appears limited. I will point out two things: