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Article currently contains the following statement:
This was twice deleted by anon User:94.174.208.161 with edit comment "nonsensical statement , no verifiable link" and "The Jizya tax is not paid in the United Kingdom. This is a nonsensical entry."
It was restored by User:Eperoton with edit comment "Not a valid reason for removing properly cited text. See WP:V" and restored by single-issue editor User:Yuri321 with edit comment "It is clearly a hypothetical statement. As said previously, you have not offered a valid reason for removing this material."
I agreed with the anon that this is a nonsensical statement, and deleted it, with edit comment "this statement, without context, is meaningless". Yuri321 reverted, with the comment "On the contrary, it is clearly hypothetical, hence the author's use of 'may' (expressing possibility). If you dispute this, take it to the Talk page instead of engaging in WP:EW.)"
Comments:
I read in the article that it is reported Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's interpretation of 'wa-hum ṣāghirūn'. It would be correct to add also his interpretazion of ‘an yadin. And it is this:
"An yadin describes a state (hal), i.e. they must give the jizya while they are humiliated and oppressed (adhilla-maqhurin). This is the correct (al-sahih) interpretation of the verse. Some said that the meaning is "from hand to hand, in cash,not on credit". Others said: "From his hand unto the hand of the receiver, not sending it nor delegating its payment." Others said: "It means due to a benefaction on your part unto them by agreeing to receive payment from them." But the accurate opinion is the first one, and the people are agreed on it. The most far-fetched opinion that misses God's intention is that of those who say that the meaning is: "Out of their ability to pay it, which is why [the jizya ] is not collected from those who can't afford it". This rule is correct, but its application to the verse is wrong. No one of the Companions of the Prophet and of the Successors interpreted it in this manner nor anyone of the old masters of the umma. It is only the witty inference of some later scholars."
This is from Uri Rubin, “Qur'an and poetry: more data concerning the Qur'anic jizya verse ('an yadin),” Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 31 (2006), p. 146. (
https://www.academia.edu/5644691/_Qur_an_and_Poetry_More_Data_Concerning_the_Qur_anic_jizya_Verse_an_yadin_)
I think that only reporting both meanings the reader could understand correctly Ibn Qayyim's opinion on this verse. It is also important to note that he states this is the sahih interpretation.
The paper by Rubin is one of the most recent on the interpretation of this verse, so it would also be useful to add in the article his conclusions.--
Domics (
talk)
08:30, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
"Historically, the Jizya tax has been understood in Islam as a fee for protection"
Just like in the Mafia ? François-Dominique ( talk) 19:45, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Of course like the Mafia. Have a look at the original idea of the mafia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.146.158.229 ( talk) 19:26, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Jizya's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Copland2013":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
1. Article is written with islamic apologist WP:POV to whitewash the bad aspect of Jizya by trying to portray in a positive manner in a smartly disguised biased manner. Methods deployed are the use of weasel word to dilute/neutralise and putting text in such order that it justifies jizya while disguising its extortionist use as tool of persecution, humiliation, and coerced conversion of Non-Muslims. For example, the convention is to use the "Criticism" as heading for critiquing the topic but the article uses wiseal words. I have fixed this issue by changing the section heading to crisp an concise "Criticism".
2. 'Article needs to by watched by unbiased editors too. I suspect current watchers might have an "Islamic apologist" inclination. Other unbiased editors need to add this article to their watch list to maintain the due balance and UNBIASED.
3. Vandalism by Islamic Apologist POV editors. Vandal Saad Abdullah1 removed the sourced criticism without explanation here. He has been warned on this talk page here here]. Watch him and other on this article. If they attempt such things again, just ban for the repeat offence. The reason the watchers of this article silently allowed this vandalism to take places reinforces my suspicion raised in point-1 and point-2 (article needs unbiased watchers and current watchers might be biased Islamic apologists). I do not know who the current watchers are, this issue is just a suspicion due to the reason I have already highlighted. Note: I have already reinserted the valid edits removed by this vandal.
4. WP:UNDUE:
5. Article needs review by unbiased editors, further expansion of criticism, include the role of how "money collected from jizya (and zakat too) routed into terrorism financing and link it with the money laundering, Riba, Hawala, FATF blacklist, etc."
6. " Islamic Supremacy" pattern of across articles to neutralise the valid sourced criticism of Islam: There is "long", "ongoing", "systematic" ( WP:Disruptive) pattern. Watchers of all these pages might be same or similar "apologist" editors.
For example, Jihad and Jihadism were forked out, though they are the same thing, jihad has an "esoteric inward cleansing" meaning as well as the "legitimised violent jihad including the justification for terrorism and the persecution of Non-Muslims using Jijzya and other tools". There are countless Islamic and other sources which have documented Muslims igniting fanatic religious fervor to rally against No-Muslims such as Islamic invasions and Hindu-Buddhist holocaust of over 100 million or 30% population of the subcontinent. Despite massive evidence that jihad is a VIOLENT TOOL AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS, Jihadism article was created to give out "false" impression that jihad is just "only a passive peaceful" thing while violent Jihad is a recent thing.
Further, those Islamic Apologist editors use the Jihadism article to push others editors to not use the word Jihad in other articles where Muslim terrorists themselves have used the word jihad to justify their terror attacks. This is a systematic dilution.
Moreover, many Apologist Editors also force other editors to not use the word Jihadism for older violent muslims terror attacks which happened prior to the term Jihadism was coined. A term which has been coined recently can be used for the older incidences, such as DNA existed even before scientist gave it a name. Hence the term DNA can be used for study of corpses which predate the creation of term DNA. These are the tools Islamist Apologist editors have been using consistently.
Another example is, repeated earlier deletion and now persistent dilution of Ghazwa-e-Hind article.
Same way there is the pattern of keeping criticism out from Islam related topics such as following:
7. Silence of good people: Fears of other editors and admins of being persecuted by Apologists Admins/editors: Other editors either fear being called as islamophobe or being persecuted by the apologist admins. I am raising this issue here. I have already belled the cat, now lets identify and catch the cats. Caution: especially watch any "apologist admin" who persecutes (targets, bans, stalks, misuses access authority to investigate with the view of banning, etc) other editors or admins for taking up these issues.
8. Reminder - social media and wikipedia as the tools of trade for terrorism: It is well known social media and collaborative platforms, such as wikipedia, are main tools of Isamist terrorists for recruiting terrorists, raising funds, waging misinformation jihad, etc. Be watchful against any infiltrators among the editors and even worse among the admins. This has no personal attack on any specific editor, but this is a hot burning issue which most editors lack courage to raise or discuss. It needs to be tackled head on nonetheless, i.e. to have a robust institutionalised mechanism at wikipedia to oust, expose, and ban the covert operatives and overt terror sympethiser infiltrators. Let us all keep it clean, unbiased, and safe. Thank you.
9. If editors find this pattern or concerns elsewhere, please feel free to pipe/link this post to that discussion to establish "across-articles" pattern and to identify perpetrators, and post the link to that discussion below so that this thread becomes the centralised place to document those instances I have already highlighted above.
10. My "partially remedial" edits here.
11. I have been an IP always. I have no other account. I will revisit this article.
58.182.176.169 ( talk) 08:34, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Article currently contains the following statement:
This was twice deleted by anon User:94.174.208.161 with edit comment "nonsensical statement , no verifiable link" and "The Jizya tax is not paid in the United Kingdom. This is a nonsensical entry."
It was restored by User:Eperoton with edit comment "Not a valid reason for removing properly cited text. See WP:V" and restored by single-issue editor User:Yuri321 with edit comment "It is clearly a hypothetical statement. As said previously, you have not offered a valid reason for removing this material."
I agreed with the anon that this is a nonsensical statement, and deleted it, with edit comment "this statement, without context, is meaningless". Yuri321 reverted, with the comment "On the contrary, it is clearly hypothetical, hence the author's use of 'may' (expressing possibility). If you dispute this, take it to the Talk page instead of engaging in WP:EW.)"
Comments:
I read in the article that it is reported Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's interpretation of 'wa-hum ṣāghirūn'. It would be correct to add also his interpretazion of ‘an yadin. And it is this:
"An yadin describes a state (hal), i.e. they must give the jizya while they are humiliated and oppressed (adhilla-maqhurin). This is the correct (al-sahih) interpretation of the verse. Some said that the meaning is "from hand to hand, in cash,not on credit". Others said: "From his hand unto the hand of the receiver, not sending it nor delegating its payment." Others said: "It means due to a benefaction on your part unto them by agreeing to receive payment from them." But the accurate opinion is the first one, and the people are agreed on it. The most far-fetched opinion that misses God's intention is that of those who say that the meaning is: "Out of their ability to pay it, which is why [the jizya ] is not collected from those who can't afford it". This rule is correct, but its application to the verse is wrong. No one of the Companions of the Prophet and of the Successors interpreted it in this manner nor anyone of the old masters of the umma. It is only the witty inference of some later scholars."
This is from Uri Rubin, “Qur'an and poetry: more data concerning the Qur'anic jizya verse ('an yadin),” Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 31 (2006), p. 146. (
https://www.academia.edu/5644691/_Qur_an_and_Poetry_More_Data_Concerning_the_Qur_anic_jizya_Verse_an_yadin_)
I think that only reporting both meanings the reader could understand correctly Ibn Qayyim's opinion on this verse. It is also important to note that he states this is the sahih interpretation.
The paper by Rubin is one of the most recent on the interpretation of this verse, so it would also be useful to add in the article his conclusions.--
Domics (
talk)
08:30, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
"Historically, the Jizya tax has been understood in Islam as a fee for protection"
Just like in the Mafia ? François-Dominique ( talk) 19:45, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Of course like the Mafia. Have a look at the original idea of the mafia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.146.158.229 ( talk) 19:26, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Jizya's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Copland2013":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
1. Article is written with islamic apologist WP:POV to whitewash the bad aspect of Jizya by trying to portray in a positive manner in a smartly disguised biased manner. Methods deployed are the use of weasel word to dilute/neutralise and putting text in such order that it justifies jizya while disguising its extortionist use as tool of persecution, humiliation, and coerced conversion of Non-Muslims. For example, the convention is to use the "Criticism" as heading for critiquing the topic but the article uses wiseal words. I have fixed this issue by changing the section heading to crisp an concise "Criticism".
2. 'Article needs to by watched by unbiased editors too. I suspect current watchers might have an "Islamic apologist" inclination. Other unbiased editors need to add this article to their watch list to maintain the due balance and UNBIASED.
3. Vandalism by Islamic Apologist POV editors. Vandal Saad Abdullah1 removed the sourced criticism without explanation here. He has been warned on this talk page here here]. Watch him and other on this article. If they attempt such things again, just ban for the repeat offence. The reason the watchers of this article silently allowed this vandalism to take places reinforces my suspicion raised in point-1 and point-2 (article needs unbiased watchers and current watchers might be biased Islamic apologists). I do not know who the current watchers are, this issue is just a suspicion due to the reason I have already highlighted. Note: I have already reinserted the valid edits removed by this vandal.
4. WP:UNDUE:
5. Article needs review by unbiased editors, further expansion of criticism, include the role of how "money collected from jizya (and zakat too) routed into terrorism financing and link it with the money laundering, Riba, Hawala, FATF blacklist, etc."
6. " Islamic Supremacy" pattern of across articles to neutralise the valid sourced criticism of Islam: There is "long", "ongoing", "systematic" ( WP:Disruptive) pattern. Watchers of all these pages might be same or similar "apologist" editors.
For example, Jihad and Jihadism were forked out, though they are the same thing, jihad has an "esoteric inward cleansing" meaning as well as the "legitimised violent jihad including the justification for terrorism and the persecution of Non-Muslims using Jijzya and other tools". There are countless Islamic and other sources which have documented Muslims igniting fanatic religious fervor to rally against No-Muslims such as Islamic invasions and Hindu-Buddhist holocaust of over 100 million or 30% population of the subcontinent. Despite massive evidence that jihad is a VIOLENT TOOL AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS, Jihadism article was created to give out "false" impression that jihad is just "only a passive peaceful" thing while violent Jihad is a recent thing.
Further, those Islamic Apologist editors use the Jihadism article to push others editors to not use the word Jihad in other articles where Muslim terrorists themselves have used the word jihad to justify their terror attacks. This is a systematic dilution.
Moreover, many Apologist Editors also force other editors to not use the word Jihadism for older violent muslims terror attacks which happened prior to the term Jihadism was coined. A term which has been coined recently can be used for the older incidences, such as DNA existed even before scientist gave it a name. Hence the term DNA can be used for study of corpses which predate the creation of term DNA. These are the tools Islamist Apologist editors have been using consistently.
Another example is, repeated earlier deletion and now persistent dilution of Ghazwa-e-Hind article.
Same way there is the pattern of keeping criticism out from Islam related topics such as following:
7. Silence of good people: Fears of other editors and admins of being persecuted by Apologists Admins/editors: Other editors either fear being called as islamophobe or being persecuted by the apologist admins. I am raising this issue here. I have already belled the cat, now lets identify and catch the cats. Caution: especially watch any "apologist admin" who persecutes (targets, bans, stalks, misuses access authority to investigate with the view of banning, etc) other editors or admins for taking up these issues.
8. Reminder - social media and wikipedia as the tools of trade for terrorism: It is well known social media and collaborative platforms, such as wikipedia, are main tools of Isamist terrorists for recruiting terrorists, raising funds, waging misinformation jihad, etc. Be watchful against any infiltrators among the editors and even worse among the admins. This has no personal attack on any specific editor, but this is a hot burning issue which most editors lack courage to raise or discuss. It needs to be tackled head on nonetheless, i.e. to have a robust institutionalised mechanism at wikipedia to oust, expose, and ban the covert operatives and overt terror sympethiser infiltrators. Let us all keep it clean, unbiased, and safe. Thank you.
9. If editors find this pattern or concerns elsewhere, please feel free to pipe/link this post to that discussion to establish "across-articles" pattern and to identify perpetrators, and post the link to that discussion below so that this thread becomes the centralised place to document those instances I have already highlighted above.
10. My "partially remedial" edits here.
11. I have been an IP always. I have no other account. I will revisit this article.
58.182.176.169 ( talk) 08:34, 27 February 2020 (UTC)