This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
I dont see why Israel isnt in the main table, although it has more jews than any other country the lead over the USA is hardly an exponential leap? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3.14 etc ( talk • contribs) 18:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Regions with significant populations Flag of Israel Israel 5,309,000[30] Other significant population centers: — jacĸrм ( talk) 18:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
That does make some sense but "Other significant population centers" isnt written as a header, if it were then it would be a lot more understandable( 3.14 etc 13:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC))
Someone should reorganize that table of Jews per country so that the country with the most is on the top, and so on. That would make more sense.-- The Judaic Jedi ( talk) 23:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is Israel seperated from the other countries, and centre-justified at the top of the table when the other countries are left-justified? I didn't want to change it in case I am missing something, but it seems like it should simply be at the top of the list showing countries in descending order. If there is a reason it is not formatted the same as the rest of the list, shouldn't there be an indication why? Spock35 ( talk) 03:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that Romania should also be on this list, considering the population of Jews it comprises. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.123.70.121 ( talk) 07:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Though it is obvious that the closest groups related are Semites and Arabs, what of Europeans, Persians, Azeris etc. with whom Jews have lived with and obviously intermarried and intermingled with. Shouldn't this related section include these other groups, especially since genetic tests and cultural traits (such as Yiddish being Germanic) show the obvious cultural fusion? I just want some feedback on this as this related ethnic groups section often seems inaccurate or based upon a single criteria, such as language. Tombseye 18:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Quoting the article:
According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."[13]
This is a bit misleading. Before the Pharisees' revolution, Judaism was a proslytizing religion, and tried to convert as many people as possible to Judaism. However, after the Pharisees, Jews started to consider themselves a people whose purpose was to set an example for other people. Judaism was considered a burden and a responsibility rather than a mark of excellence.
Therefore, it is possible many of the converted Jews were not really an integral part of the Jewish people, and so later converted to other religions, or were relieved of their Jewish entity. The real Jews who persisted were much fewer than those who considered themselves Jews at the peak.
So I think it should be noted.
-- User:Shlomif ---10:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)10:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)~
sorry, but I find it really hard to believe that there are just 13 million Jews worldwide. this figure seems to be grossly understated. I think it might have something to do with the fact that many Jews adopt a secular name apart from a Hebrew name and intentionally opt to keep a "low profile". Feels like I have seen 13 million Jewish actors on American TV alone in the last 10 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.218.198 ( talk) 17:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
there would be 19 million if it wasnt for hitler...just saying —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.25.108.46 ( talk) 11:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, so it states several times in the article that the worldwide number of jews is 13 millions, still the tablet adds up to 15,8 millions, why's that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.184.109 ( talk) 09:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no scientifically acceptable standard for Jewish DNA. Dr. Robert Pollack, a professor of biological sciences and director of the Center for the Study of Science and Religion at Columbia University, makes the following important observation in his online article The Fallacy of Biological Judaism
JON MOSELEY RESPONDING: THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE. DNA ANALYSIS HAS SHOWN THAT JEWS AROUND THE WORLD (despite being scattered all over the world) ARE INCREDIBLY UNIFORM GENETICALLY, and that they share a common genetic heritage from the Middle East dating back 3000 years, and that they are sharply distinct from the populations in which they live. Google for the principal researcher Hammer. I will post cites when I get a chance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 ( talk) 18:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
"Unlike asking "Are Jews a family?", as historians have traditionally done, geneticists seeking to advise Ashkenazic families are also, in passing, asking, "Do Jews all share the same versions of one or more genes?" -- a question with a testable, precise answer. As no two people except pairs of identical twins have exactly the same version of the human genomic text, this claim could be confirmed or rejected by a search for versions of the human genome shared by all Jews and no other people. Given the historical context of the Nazi "experiment," it is all the more remarkable that Jews all over the world have been flocking to the new technology of DNA-based diagnosis, eager to lend their individual genomes -- each a surviving data point from the terrible experiment in negative selection -- to a revisiting of this issue of biological Judaism. At a recent meeting of the Association of Orthodox Jewish scientists and the Columbia Center for the Study of Science and Religion, it became clear that Jewish curiosity has provided sufficient genetic material to give a perfectly clear negative answer: There is no support in the genomes of today's Jews for the calumnious and calamitous model of biological Judaism. Though there are many deleterious versions of genes shared within the Ashkenazic community, there are no DNA sequences common to all Jews and absent from all non-Jews. There is nothing in the human genome that makes or diagnoses a person as a Jew."
Re: "there are no DNA sequences common to all Jews and absent from all non-Jews" Of course this is true. Ethnicity is a useful abstraction not a characteristic with precise definition. That said, it would be a stretch to say there is no such thing as "biological jewishness" (biological Judaism would be absurd as Judaism refers specifically to the religion as far as I understand it.). In as much as there is a host of genetic diseases which correlate much more strongly with those descending from self-identified Jews and furthermore in light of recent Y haplotype studies, it is fairly clear that those who self-identify as Jews have genetic similiarities. 69.37.255.177 23:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)GMM
Frankly, it is an egregious flaw that this article doesn't make some mention of the evidence of genetic correlations between Jews. I would argue that at minimum the article should point towards the relevant articles on: Bloom syndrome, Canavan disease, Cystic fibrosis, Familial dysautonomia, Fanconi anemia group C, Gaucher disease, Niemann-Pick disease types A and B, Tay-Sachs disease, and Y-chromosomal_Aaron. Other interesting evidence can be found by searching for jewish y haplotype, jewish mitochondrial DNA, etc. etc. at www.pubmed.org scholar.google.com or any other biomedically oriented search engine one might prefer. 69.37.255.177 23:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)GMM
Fellow Wikipedians. I wonder why on the picture on the top right corner of this article the photo of Karl Marx is not included. He was one of XX century’s greatest philosopher (some say the greatest). He also was a economist, sociologist and an anthropologist. I won’t make a edit in this article. I first want to discuss it. Regards to all. Cheers. Revizionist 20:23, 07 September 2007 (UTC)
JON MOSELEY RESPONDING: Karl Marx was an atheist who rejected his Jewish heritage. Karl Marx's father converted the entire family to the Lutheran religion when Karl Marx was a young boy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 ( talk) 18:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Karl Marx was Jewish, Jewishness is an ethnicity-argues the state of Israel and most Jews, many famous Zionists and Jews were not religious, you could argue Einstein was an atheist or at least an agnostic, certainly not an orthodox Jewish believer, yet he has a place here. Marx is in some ways even more important than Einsteain, depending on what you consider important, whether you are a communist or a capitalist. I also dispute he was antisemtiic he wrote the essay 'on the Jewish question' and argued that Jews should 'extricate themselves from capitalism', since Marx was profoundly anti-capitalist (and I cant honosetly believe you didnt know that) this is not antisemitism. Also, who are you to determine who is Jewish and who is not? Many Jews dont really identify with Jewish culture or religion but would say that their ethnicity was Jewish, dont make such sweeping statements. 86.133.101.176 ( talk) 21:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
From the Wikipedia article
Jewish identity: "Jewish identity is the subjective state of perceiving oneself as as a Jew and as relating to being Jewish. Jewish identity, by this definition, does not depend on whether or not a person is regarded as a Jew by others, or by an external set of religious, or legal, or sociological norms." By this definition, one is accorded the right of self-determinism in constructing one's identity. This seems an appropriate criterion to use here. In any case, people's whose identities as Jews are questionable (by this or other criteria) ought not to be included in an article on Judiasm! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.223.202.213 (
talk) 16:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
P.S.
I created a Template user for Jewish wikipedians (
Template:User Jewish) {{User Jewish}}
. I hope you aprove it and like it. Cheers.
Revizionist 14:52, 08 September 2007 (UTC)
For Jon Stewart. At the top oof the page with the exaple of Jewish people. I don't think that it is the right "Jo(h)n St(ew/u)art" Reginmund 18:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It now appears that this problem may only go back three days. Just the same, thanks for noticing. It has been corrected. Hertz1888 20:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There's a line about "systematic persecution" in arab lands and it cites this source that I looked up and it does not mention it. If I am overlooking this, please let me know, but the last systematic persecution I heard about the Jews was in the Holocaust, not in 1950s Arabia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeilaStar ( talk • contribs) 09:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
"The most commonly used terms to describe ethnic divisions among Jews currently are: Ashkenazi (meaning "German" in Hebrew, denoting their Central European base); and Sephardi (meaning "Spanish" or "Iberian" in Hebrew, denoting their Spanish and Portuguese base)." - What the hell? ethnically there are 3 types of Jews: Ashkeanzic (Jews of central Europe), Sephardi (Jews of Spain and Portugal) and Mizrakhi (Jews of Asia and North Africa). The only thing that is common between Sephardi and Mizrakhi is the rite (signon tefilah). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.87.201 ( talk) 15:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes well what about it? Nothing is mentioned of the fact that for roughly 200 years there was a Jewish state. I would be bold and add it in but I have neither the time nor the knowledge - but I do have the curiosity to wonder how this could be a Good Article if it misses a relatively important aspect. Tourskin 22:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.119.193 ( talk) 20:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Romainiotes are the jewish populations of what is Greece today. They peak the yevanic dialect and have a heritage of over 2000 years. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.159.235.33 (
talk) 14:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This section is almost completely original research, and is way too long. I think it is time to work on a way of shortening the section and moving some of the content to Jewish history. Yahel Guhan 05:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the Jews and Judaism section of the article, there is not enough emphasis on the division between traditional beliefs and historicity. For example,
Biblical figures (
Solomon, etc.) are part of the tradition, but their part in
history is debatable. Of course, they need be mentioned, however a disclaimer or better wording is definitely called for to improve the validity of this article.
Come on people: there are more than 13 million Jews in America alone! I find it very hard to believe that there are 13 million Jews in total around the world today in 2007. It might have something to do with the fact that many Jews adopt secular names besides their Hebrew birth names and intentionally choose to keep a low profile for whatever reason. It also seems that they are only too happy with this gross understatement. Read the credits at the end of movies and TV shows in USA alone in the last 10 years and you will exceed 13 million individuals! Why the continuous understatement? In order not to attract Christians' attention?? hmm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.218.198 ( talk) 18:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The numbers are wrong. There are more in the U.S.
-G
This has mostly to do with different ways of counting Jews. The current source cited takes a particularly exlusionary perspective. I pulled this from the report.
Indeed, after critically reviewing all available evidence on Jewish demographic trends, it is now plausible to claim that Israel has overtaken the United States in hosting the largest Jewish community worldwide. At least, concerning the core Jewish population not inclusive of non-Jewish members of Jewish households and other non-Jews of Jewish ancestry...
That seems suspect to me, and at odds with the traditional definition given in Who is a Jew? (convert or of a Jewish mother). I can't really imagine who are the 'non-Jewish members of Jewish households', the family dog? In any case, I think the study deliberately makes the mysterious distinction between core and non-core Jews to ignore the large numbers of secular and atheist Jews in the United States. Meanwhile, the numbers quoted for Israel, at least in eyeballing the 2006 Israeli census, seem to include every Jew in Israel, regardless of the strength of their cultural affiliation.
That seems somewhat disingenuous to me, but I am not an expert. A US census report in 2003, using a less-stringent (and dare I say, less-biased) metric, found some six million Jews in the United States. Of course, they also admit to using a broad compendium of sources. -- Sammermpc 17:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
They say in some census that in the States there are, at least, more than 7 million jews, what about that?-- Enkiduk ( talk) 22:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
WRONG 13 million jews world wide. Aprrox 5 million in america, 4.5 in israel. Jew just work hard that is why they are successful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.186.6 ( talk) 12:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
why Khazars are not mentioned in the article at all? :-( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.54.190 ( talk) 03:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
==[[Khazars]]== Hebrew sing. "Kuzari" כוזרי plur. "Kuzarim" כוזרים;
Following their conversion to Judaism, the Khazars themselves traced their origins to Kozar, a son of Togarmah. Togarmah is mentioned in Genesis in the Hebrew scriptures as a grandson of Japheth.
Nowadays Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites call themselves as descendants of Khazars. . So they avoided of anti-semitic pogroms in Russia. Later during Holocaust, Crimean Karaites successfully avoided it (according paragraph 2, point 2 of the First Regulation to the Reich Citizenship Law), however 75% of Krymchaks were murdered.
Jon Moseley responding: There is a separate article on the Khazars, which is adequate. The Khazars were orientals who traveled from the East. No modern Jew comes from the Khazars, as demonstrated by their lack of oriental appearance. DNA analysis of the world's people proves that Jews are not related to the Khazars, but share a common genetic origin dating back 3000 years in the Middle East.
==see also==
I'll add it, but it will need to be sourced first. Yahel Guhan 21:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
There's an inconsistency on the infobox, wich says Judaism is "the" religion of the Jews. Either we take Einstein out of the group of pictures heading the box, of put "other" along with Judaism as religions of Jews, because, for example, Einstein was an ethnic Jew, but NOT a follower of Judaism (he was "pantheistic"). -- Damifb 18:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the link to "Who is a Jew" is of high importance to the subject and deserves more than to be placed in a sentence explaining why population numbers are difficult to measure. The question's importance is far beyond just finding accurate head counts. The sentence as is states "In addition to halakhic considerations, there are secular, political, and ancestral identitification factors in defining who is a Jew that increase the figure considerably." I think this sentence, minus the "that increase the figure considerably", should be at the end of the first paragraph. 131.94.169.118 21:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The article states that thiers 5.3 something million Jews in Israel, this is completely falso and obviously some years old since the actual number is between 5.45-5.6 million today. The number of Jews in the United States is also wrong since no one really knows the exact number but it is probaly closer to around 5.5 to 6 million Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.209.6 ( talk) 17:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
SOMEONE FALSIFIED INFORMATION BY MISQUOTING THE SOURCE CITED. THIS ARTICLE STATES THAT ISRAEL HAS: "6,391,800 JEWS OUT OF A TOTAL POP OF 7,114,400 AND THAT JEWS ARE 89.8%" AND CITES THE CIA WORLD FACTBOOK AS A SOURCE.
NOW GO TO THE SOURCE CITED: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#People SAYS TOTAL POPULATION IS
"6,426,679 note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (July 2007 est.)"
AND ALSO SAYS
"Religions: Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2004)"
IT IS ALSO WRITTEN ON THE MAIN ARTICLE ABOUT ISRAEL AND VERY WIDELY KNOWN BY EVERYONE FAMILIAR WITH THE COUNTRY THAT ISRAEL HAS ABOUT 20% Arab (Muslim & Christian) POPULATION.
THIS IS SERIOUS BECAUSE THE PERSON THAT DID IT DID NOT JUST USE A BAD SOURCE, THEY ACTUALLY MISQUOTED THE SOURCE.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.251.59.241 ( talk) 12:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
These are two different words that happen to be spelled the same because of it's origin. It's a homonym. This should be stated in the article to avoid confusion. Not all Jews (ethnic) are Jews (religious). Consider Atheist Jew. I would even go as far as creating two different articles for each word or at least separating this article into an ethnic perspective of the word and a religious perspective of the word. -- Xer0 21:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
"Jewish People" gets redirected to this article. But what is the difference between a "people" and a "race" ? Both are defined by ancestry. (no Arabs please). 24.64.165.176 07:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
JON MOSELEY Responding: It may be helpful in this context to note that the Bible does not talk about a Jewish race, which is important because we get some of (not all) our knowledge of the Jewish people from the Bible. The Bible talks about Israel (the Jews) as a NATION or a PEOPLE -- never as a race. In fact the word "race" appears only 3 times in the Bible (other than the verb to race or the race as running a course). One reference is to the human race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 ( talk) 18:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Hertz1888, even if someone of African or Asiatic decent converts, he or she is considered a Jew or 'Jewish.' Hence their race is different from their religion, meaning Judaism is NOT a race (so take your time! ha just kidding only a cheap pun). But on a more serious note you CAN be talking about judaism as an ethnicity. Look up the difference between a race and an ethnicity. -- The Judaic Jedi ( talk) 00:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
There are more than 96,000 Jews in Brazil. The US embassy in Brazil puts the numbers at 120,000 (embaixadaamericana.org.br/index.php?action=materia&id=2988&submenu=press.inc.php&itemmenu=21), although in reality this number is around 150,000. As for Argentina, it is estimated that up to 250,000 Jews live in the country. However, the Jewish Agency for Israel puts this number at 200,000 (www.jafi.org.il/education/identity/2-4argentina.html. Can anyone correct those numbers? Davi
The article current states in the second paragraph that "According to the Jewish Agency, for the year 2007 there are 13.2 million Jews worldwide". According the Jewish Agencies web-site they "convened an emergency session to deal with what it called the "demographic crisis," there are now some 12.9 million Jews in the world. Earlier this year, estimates put the number at 13.2 million. The main reason for the decline appears in the data from the census of Jewish communities in the U.S." (see paragraph 2 on http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Jewish%2BEducation/Compelling%2BContent/Eye%2Bon%2BIsrael/Demography/Online%2BReferences1.htm). Can someone please correct this inaccuracy? The article is still correct in general because it provides a range of 12-14 million. Lsleeman ( talk) 20:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
the article states numerous times that the US has the highest population of Jews, yet the fact box on the top right of the screen reports that Israel has a larger Jewish population. I don't really care which number is used, but I think internal consistency should be a high priority. Rugz ( talk) 00:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It is difficult to see why an 11-sentence description of the Holocaust should have four sentences dedicated to praising the Polish underground for helping Jews. A more historically accurate perspective would focus on the fact that the majority of the Polish population was highly supportive of the Holocaust---Poland is one of the Nazi-occupied countries that had the most enthusiasm for Nazi anti-Semitic measures. However, neither praise nor condemnation of Poles is appropriate for a one paragraph description of the Holocaust, and I have removed the four sentences.
Momojeng 02:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
"Poland is one of the Nazi-occupied countries that had the most enthusiasm for Nazi anti-Semitic measures."
I would like to see the actual rankings of Nazi-occupied countries and their enthusiasm for anti-semitism please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarian ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you are simply in error momojeng. Even the most cursory examination of European history reveals amazing religious tolerance for Judaism in Poland when it was welcomed few other places in Europe. This history goes back over a thousand years. Moreover, as you should well know there are more Polish Chassidey Umot HaOlam than any other, by massive margin. To the extent you don't know what the Chassidey Umot HaOlam are, they are the Righteous Amongst Nations or Among Gentiles revered by Jews for their sacrifices on behalf of the Jewish people. This honor is bestowed by the state of Israel. Bear in mind also, that more Polish gentiles were killed by the Nazi's than Polish Jews (this runs to over 3 million dead for each group). Shame on you momojeng for either your ignorance or your prejudice. Misinformation about the Polish people does not help this site. Restore the four (or more sentences). And momojeng, please read more history. There were collaborators everywhere, but no people sacrificed more on behalf of the Jews than the Poles. Nor did any people share the horror of being labeled "Untermensch" and share the Holocaust horror more than the Poles. User Frank —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.215.158.128 ( talk) 18:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Quote from the article:
"In addition to halakhic considerations, there are secular, political, and ancestral identification factors in defining who is a Jew that increase the figure considerably[3]"
This is here-say. The reference doesn't say anything or the sort. I'd imagine that the reference was added then "that increase the figure considerably" was tacked on the end. It should be removed and edits should be checked against the references they cite.
Cya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.247.129 ( talk) 11:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
i have to correct your error the first monotheistic religion is from egypt. "The first claims of global supremacy of a specific god date to the Late Bronze Age, with Akhenaten's Great Hymn to the Aten (connected to Judaism by Sigmund Freud in his Moses and Monotheism),ect ." look under monotheism in wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.8 ( talk) 23:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The third sentence of this article begins with "The Jews have suffered a long history of persecution in many different lands". This is an extraordinarily emotive sentence. I'm not claiming that it isn't true, and indeed there are whole articles devoted to exploring it, but is it really how we want to set the tone for an entire article about the word "Jew"? It says to the reader, right off the bat, that the concept of "Jew" is all about being perscuted. This is surely a stereotype we wish to avoid. I suggest that the sentence be rephrased to state simply that jewish populations have fluctuated for a variety of reasons, moving the reference to persecution further down the article (the section equally emotively headed "wars against the jews" would seem like the sensible place). I apologise for lacking the boldness to do this myself, but I am sure many of you will understand why. Magnate ( talk) 10:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
I dont see why Israel isnt in the main table, although it has more jews than any other country the lead over the USA is hardly an exponential leap? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3.14 etc ( talk • contribs) 18:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Regions with significant populations Flag of Israel Israel 5,309,000[30] Other significant population centers: — jacĸrм ( talk) 18:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
That does make some sense but "Other significant population centers" isnt written as a header, if it were then it would be a lot more understandable( 3.14 etc 13:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC))
Someone should reorganize that table of Jews per country so that the country with the most is on the top, and so on. That would make more sense.-- The Judaic Jedi ( talk) 23:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is Israel seperated from the other countries, and centre-justified at the top of the table when the other countries are left-justified? I didn't want to change it in case I am missing something, but it seems like it should simply be at the top of the list showing countries in descending order. If there is a reason it is not formatted the same as the rest of the list, shouldn't there be an indication why? Spock35 ( talk) 03:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that Romania should also be on this list, considering the population of Jews it comprises. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.123.70.121 ( talk) 07:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Though it is obvious that the closest groups related are Semites and Arabs, what of Europeans, Persians, Azeris etc. with whom Jews have lived with and obviously intermarried and intermingled with. Shouldn't this related section include these other groups, especially since genetic tests and cultural traits (such as Yiddish being Germanic) show the obvious cultural fusion? I just want some feedback on this as this related ethnic groups section often seems inaccurate or based upon a single criteria, such as language. Tombseye 18:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Quoting the article:
According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."[13]
This is a bit misleading. Before the Pharisees' revolution, Judaism was a proslytizing religion, and tried to convert as many people as possible to Judaism. However, after the Pharisees, Jews started to consider themselves a people whose purpose was to set an example for other people. Judaism was considered a burden and a responsibility rather than a mark of excellence.
Therefore, it is possible many of the converted Jews were not really an integral part of the Jewish people, and so later converted to other religions, or were relieved of their Jewish entity. The real Jews who persisted were much fewer than those who considered themselves Jews at the peak.
So I think it should be noted.
-- User:Shlomif ---10:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)10:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)~
sorry, but I find it really hard to believe that there are just 13 million Jews worldwide. this figure seems to be grossly understated. I think it might have something to do with the fact that many Jews adopt a secular name apart from a Hebrew name and intentionally opt to keep a "low profile". Feels like I have seen 13 million Jewish actors on American TV alone in the last 10 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.218.198 ( talk) 17:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
there would be 19 million if it wasnt for hitler...just saying —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.25.108.46 ( talk) 11:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, so it states several times in the article that the worldwide number of jews is 13 millions, still the tablet adds up to 15,8 millions, why's that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.184.109 ( talk) 09:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no scientifically acceptable standard for Jewish DNA. Dr. Robert Pollack, a professor of biological sciences and director of the Center for the Study of Science and Religion at Columbia University, makes the following important observation in his online article The Fallacy of Biological Judaism
JON MOSELEY RESPONDING: THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE. DNA ANALYSIS HAS SHOWN THAT JEWS AROUND THE WORLD (despite being scattered all over the world) ARE INCREDIBLY UNIFORM GENETICALLY, and that they share a common genetic heritage from the Middle East dating back 3000 years, and that they are sharply distinct from the populations in which they live. Google for the principal researcher Hammer. I will post cites when I get a chance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 ( talk) 18:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
"Unlike asking "Are Jews a family?", as historians have traditionally done, geneticists seeking to advise Ashkenazic families are also, in passing, asking, "Do Jews all share the same versions of one or more genes?" -- a question with a testable, precise answer. As no two people except pairs of identical twins have exactly the same version of the human genomic text, this claim could be confirmed or rejected by a search for versions of the human genome shared by all Jews and no other people. Given the historical context of the Nazi "experiment," it is all the more remarkable that Jews all over the world have been flocking to the new technology of DNA-based diagnosis, eager to lend their individual genomes -- each a surviving data point from the terrible experiment in negative selection -- to a revisiting of this issue of biological Judaism. At a recent meeting of the Association of Orthodox Jewish scientists and the Columbia Center for the Study of Science and Religion, it became clear that Jewish curiosity has provided sufficient genetic material to give a perfectly clear negative answer: There is no support in the genomes of today's Jews for the calumnious and calamitous model of biological Judaism. Though there are many deleterious versions of genes shared within the Ashkenazic community, there are no DNA sequences common to all Jews and absent from all non-Jews. There is nothing in the human genome that makes or diagnoses a person as a Jew."
Re: "there are no DNA sequences common to all Jews and absent from all non-Jews" Of course this is true. Ethnicity is a useful abstraction not a characteristic with precise definition. That said, it would be a stretch to say there is no such thing as "biological jewishness" (biological Judaism would be absurd as Judaism refers specifically to the religion as far as I understand it.). In as much as there is a host of genetic diseases which correlate much more strongly with those descending from self-identified Jews and furthermore in light of recent Y haplotype studies, it is fairly clear that those who self-identify as Jews have genetic similiarities. 69.37.255.177 23:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)GMM
Frankly, it is an egregious flaw that this article doesn't make some mention of the evidence of genetic correlations between Jews. I would argue that at minimum the article should point towards the relevant articles on: Bloom syndrome, Canavan disease, Cystic fibrosis, Familial dysautonomia, Fanconi anemia group C, Gaucher disease, Niemann-Pick disease types A and B, Tay-Sachs disease, and Y-chromosomal_Aaron. Other interesting evidence can be found by searching for jewish y haplotype, jewish mitochondrial DNA, etc. etc. at www.pubmed.org scholar.google.com or any other biomedically oriented search engine one might prefer. 69.37.255.177 23:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)GMM
Fellow Wikipedians. I wonder why on the picture on the top right corner of this article the photo of Karl Marx is not included. He was one of XX century’s greatest philosopher (some say the greatest). He also was a economist, sociologist and an anthropologist. I won’t make a edit in this article. I first want to discuss it. Regards to all. Cheers. Revizionist 20:23, 07 September 2007 (UTC)
JON MOSELEY RESPONDING: Karl Marx was an atheist who rejected his Jewish heritage. Karl Marx's father converted the entire family to the Lutheran religion when Karl Marx was a young boy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 ( talk) 18:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Karl Marx was Jewish, Jewishness is an ethnicity-argues the state of Israel and most Jews, many famous Zionists and Jews were not religious, you could argue Einstein was an atheist or at least an agnostic, certainly not an orthodox Jewish believer, yet he has a place here. Marx is in some ways even more important than Einsteain, depending on what you consider important, whether you are a communist or a capitalist. I also dispute he was antisemtiic he wrote the essay 'on the Jewish question' and argued that Jews should 'extricate themselves from capitalism', since Marx was profoundly anti-capitalist (and I cant honosetly believe you didnt know that) this is not antisemitism. Also, who are you to determine who is Jewish and who is not? Many Jews dont really identify with Jewish culture or religion but would say that their ethnicity was Jewish, dont make such sweeping statements. 86.133.101.176 ( talk) 21:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
From the Wikipedia article
Jewish identity: "Jewish identity is the subjective state of perceiving oneself as as a Jew and as relating to being Jewish. Jewish identity, by this definition, does not depend on whether or not a person is regarded as a Jew by others, or by an external set of religious, or legal, or sociological norms." By this definition, one is accorded the right of self-determinism in constructing one's identity. This seems an appropriate criterion to use here. In any case, people's whose identities as Jews are questionable (by this or other criteria) ought not to be included in an article on Judiasm! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.223.202.213 (
talk) 16:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
P.S.
I created a Template user for Jewish wikipedians (
Template:User Jewish) {{User Jewish}}
. I hope you aprove it and like it. Cheers.
Revizionist 14:52, 08 September 2007 (UTC)
For Jon Stewart. At the top oof the page with the exaple of Jewish people. I don't think that it is the right "Jo(h)n St(ew/u)art" Reginmund 18:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It now appears that this problem may only go back three days. Just the same, thanks for noticing. It has been corrected. Hertz1888 20:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There's a line about "systematic persecution" in arab lands and it cites this source that I looked up and it does not mention it. If I am overlooking this, please let me know, but the last systematic persecution I heard about the Jews was in the Holocaust, not in 1950s Arabia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeilaStar ( talk • contribs) 09:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
"The most commonly used terms to describe ethnic divisions among Jews currently are: Ashkenazi (meaning "German" in Hebrew, denoting their Central European base); and Sephardi (meaning "Spanish" or "Iberian" in Hebrew, denoting their Spanish and Portuguese base)." - What the hell? ethnically there are 3 types of Jews: Ashkeanzic (Jews of central Europe), Sephardi (Jews of Spain and Portugal) and Mizrakhi (Jews of Asia and North Africa). The only thing that is common between Sephardi and Mizrakhi is the rite (signon tefilah). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.87.201 ( talk) 15:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes well what about it? Nothing is mentioned of the fact that for roughly 200 years there was a Jewish state. I would be bold and add it in but I have neither the time nor the knowledge - but I do have the curiosity to wonder how this could be a Good Article if it misses a relatively important aspect. Tourskin 22:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.119.193 ( talk) 20:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Romainiotes are the jewish populations of what is Greece today. They peak the yevanic dialect and have a heritage of over 2000 years. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.159.235.33 (
talk) 14:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This section is almost completely original research, and is way too long. I think it is time to work on a way of shortening the section and moving some of the content to Jewish history. Yahel Guhan 05:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the Jews and Judaism section of the article, there is not enough emphasis on the division between traditional beliefs and historicity. For example,
Biblical figures (
Solomon, etc.) are part of the tradition, but their part in
history is debatable. Of course, they need be mentioned, however a disclaimer or better wording is definitely called for to improve the validity of this article.
Come on people: there are more than 13 million Jews in America alone! I find it very hard to believe that there are 13 million Jews in total around the world today in 2007. It might have something to do with the fact that many Jews adopt secular names besides their Hebrew birth names and intentionally choose to keep a low profile for whatever reason. It also seems that they are only too happy with this gross understatement. Read the credits at the end of movies and TV shows in USA alone in the last 10 years and you will exceed 13 million individuals! Why the continuous understatement? In order not to attract Christians' attention?? hmm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.218.198 ( talk) 18:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The numbers are wrong. There are more in the U.S.
-G
This has mostly to do with different ways of counting Jews. The current source cited takes a particularly exlusionary perspective. I pulled this from the report.
Indeed, after critically reviewing all available evidence on Jewish demographic trends, it is now plausible to claim that Israel has overtaken the United States in hosting the largest Jewish community worldwide. At least, concerning the core Jewish population not inclusive of non-Jewish members of Jewish households and other non-Jews of Jewish ancestry...
That seems suspect to me, and at odds with the traditional definition given in Who is a Jew? (convert or of a Jewish mother). I can't really imagine who are the 'non-Jewish members of Jewish households', the family dog? In any case, I think the study deliberately makes the mysterious distinction between core and non-core Jews to ignore the large numbers of secular and atheist Jews in the United States. Meanwhile, the numbers quoted for Israel, at least in eyeballing the 2006 Israeli census, seem to include every Jew in Israel, regardless of the strength of their cultural affiliation.
That seems somewhat disingenuous to me, but I am not an expert. A US census report in 2003, using a less-stringent (and dare I say, less-biased) metric, found some six million Jews in the United States. Of course, they also admit to using a broad compendium of sources. -- Sammermpc 17:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
They say in some census that in the States there are, at least, more than 7 million jews, what about that?-- Enkiduk ( talk) 22:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
WRONG 13 million jews world wide. Aprrox 5 million in america, 4.5 in israel. Jew just work hard that is why they are successful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.186.6 ( talk) 12:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
why Khazars are not mentioned in the article at all? :-( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.54.190 ( talk) 03:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
==[[Khazars]]== Hebrew sing. "Kuzari" כוזרי plur. "Kuzarim" כוזרים;
Following their conversion to Judaism, the Khazars themselves traced their origins to Kozar, a son of Togarmah. Togarmah is mentioned in Genesis in the Hebrew scriptures as a grandson of Japheth.
Nowadays Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites call themselves as descendants of Khazars. . So they avoided of anti-semitic pogroms in Russia. Later during Holocaust, Crimean Karaites successfully avoided it (according paragraph 2, point 2 of the First Regulation to the Reich Citizenship Law), however 75% of Krymchaks were murdered.
Jon Moseley responding: There is a separate article on the Khazars, which is adequate. The Khazars were orientals who traveled from the East. No modern Jew comes from the Khazars, as demonstrated by their lack of oriental appearance. DNA analysis of the world's people proves that Jews are not related to the Khazars, but share a common genetic origin dating back 3000 years in the Middle East.
==see also==
I'll add it, but it will need to be sourced first. Yahel Guhan 21:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
There's an inconsistency on the infobox, wich says Judaism is "the" religion of the Jews. Either we take Einstein out of the group of pictures heading the box, of put "other" along with Judaism as religions of Jews, because, for example, Einstein was an ethnic Jew, but NOT a follower of Judaism (he was "pantheistic"). -- Damifb 18:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the link to "Who is a Jew" is of high importance to the subject and deserves more than to be placed in a sentence explaining why population numbers are difficult to measure. The question's importance is far beyond just finding accurate head counts. The sentence as is states "In addition to halakhic considerations, there are secular, political, and ancestral identitification factors in defining who is a Jew that increase the figure considerably." I think this sentence, minus the "that increase the figure considerably", should be at the end of the first paragraph. 131.94.169.118 21:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The article states that thiers 5.3 something million Jews in Israel, this is completely falso and obviously some years old since the actual number is between 5.45-5.6 million today. The number of Jews in the United States is also wrong since no one really knows the exact number but it is probaly closer to around 5.5 to 6 million Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.209.6 ( talk) 17:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
SOMEONE FALSIFIED INFORMATION BY MISQUOTING THE SOURCE CITED. THIS ARTICLE STATES THAT ISRAEL HAS: "6,391,800 JEWS OUT OF A TOTAL POP OF 7,114,400 AND THAT JEWS ARE 89.8%" AND CITES THE CIA WORLD FACTBOOK AS A SOURCE.
NOW GO TO THE SOURCE CITED: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#People SAYS TOTAL POPULATION IS
"6,426,679 note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (July 2007 est.)"
AND ALSO SAYS
"Religions: Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2004)"
IT IS ALSO WRITTEN ON THE MAIN ARTICLE ABOUT ISRAEL AND VERY WIDELY KNOWN BY EVERYONE FAMILIAR WITH THE COUNTRY THAT ISRAEL HAS ABOUT 20% Arab (Muslim & Christian) POPULATION.
THIS IS SERIOUS BECAUSE THE PERSON THAT DID IT DID NOT JUST USE A BAD SOURCE, THEY ACTUALLY MISQUOTED THE SOURCE.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.251.59.241 ( talk) 12:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
These are two different words that happen to be spelled the same because of it's origin. It's a homonym. This should be stated in the article to avoid confusion. Not all Jews (ethnic) are Jews (religious). Consider Atheist Jew. I would even go as far as creating two different articles for each word or at least separating this article into an ethnic perspective of the word and a religious perspective of the word. -- Xer0 21:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
"Jewish People" gets redirected to this article. But what is the difference between a "people" and a "race" ? Both are defined by ancestry. (no Arabs please). 24.64.165.176 07:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
JON MOSELEY Responding: It may be helpful in this context to note that the Bible does not talk about a Jewish race, which is important because we get some of (not all) our knowledge of the Jewish people from the Bible. The Bible talks about Israel (the Jews) as a NATION or a PEOPLE -- never as a race. In fact the word "race" appears only 3 times in the Bible (other than the verb to race or the race as running a course). One reference is to the human race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 ( talk) 18:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Hertz1888, even if someone of African or Asiatic decent converts, he or she is considered a Jew or 'Jewish.' Hence their race is different from their religion, meaning Judaism is NOT a race (so take your time! ha just kidding only a cheap pun). But on a more serious note you CAN be talking about judaism as an ethnicity. Look up the difference between a race and an ethnicity. -- The Judaic Jedi ( talk) 00:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
There are more than 96,000 Jews in Brazil. The US embassy in Brazil puts the numbers at 120,000 (embaixadaamericana.org.br/index.php?action=materia&id=2988&submenu=press.inc.php&itemmenu=21), although in reality this number is around 150,000. As for Argentina, it is estimated that up to 250,000 Jews live in the country. However, the Jewish Agency for Israel puts this number at 200,000 (www.jafi.org.il/education/identity/2-4argentina.html. Can anyone correct those numbers? Davi
The article current states in the second paragraph that "According to the Jewish Agency, for the year 2007 there are 13.2 million Jews worldwide". According the Jewish Agencies web-site they "convened an emergency session to deal with what it called the "demographic crisis," there are now some 12.9 million Jews in the world. Earlier this year, estimates put the number at 13.2 million. The main reason for the decline appears in the data from the census of Jewish communities in the U.S." (see paragraph 2 on http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Jewish%2BEducation/Compelling%2BContent/Eye%2Bon%2BIsrael/Demography/Online%2BReferences1.htm). Can someone please correct this inaccuracy? The article is still correct in general because it provides a range of 12-14 million. Lsleeman ( talk) 20:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
the article states numerous times that the US has the highest population of Jews, yet the fact box on the top right of the screen reports that Israel has a larger Jewish population. I don't really care which number is used, but I think internal consistency should be a high priority. Rugz ( talk) 00:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It is difficult to see why an 11-sentence description of the Holocaust should have four sentences dedicated to praising the Polish underground for helping Jews. A more historically accurate perspective would focus on the fact that the majority of the Polish population was highly supportive of the Holocaust---Poland is one of the Nazi-occupied countries that had the most enthusiasm for Nazi anti-Semitic measures. However, neither praise nor condemnation of Poles is appropriate for a one paragraph description of the Holocaust, and I have removed the four sentences.
Momojeng 02:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
"Poland is one of the Nazi-occupied countries that had the most enthusiasm for Nazi anti-Semitic measures."
I would like to see the actual rankings of Nazi-occupied countries and their enthusiasm for anti-semitism please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarian ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you are simply in error momojeng. Even the most cursory examination of European history reveals amazing religious tolerance for Judaism in Poland when it was welcomed few other places in Europe. This history goes back over a thousand years. Moreover, as you should well know there are more Polish Chassidey Umot HaOlam than any other, by massive margin. To the extent you don't know what the Chassidey Umot HaOlam are, they are the Righteous Amongst Nations or Among Gentiles revered by Jews for their sacrifices on behalf of the Jewish people. This honor is bestowed by the state of Israel. Bear in mind also, that more Polish gentiles were killed by the Nazi's than Polish Jews (this runs to over 3 million dead for each group). Shame on you momojeng for either your ignorance or your prejudice. Misinformation about the Polish people does not help this site. Restore the four (or more sentences). And momojeng, please read more history. There were collaborators everywhere, but no people sacrificed more on behalf of the Jews than the Poles. Nor did any people share the horror of being labeled "Untermensch" and share the Holocaust horror more than the Poles. User Frank —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.215.158.128 ( talk) 18:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Quote from the article:
"In addition to halakhic considerations, there are secular, political, and ancestral identification factors in defining who is a Jew that increase the figure considerably[3]"
This is here-say. The reference doesn't say anything or the sort. I'd imagine that the reference was added then "that increase the figure considerably" was tacked on the end. It should be removed and edits should be checked against the references they cite.
Cya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.247.129 ( talk) 11:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
i have to correct your error the first monotheistic religion is from egypt. "The first claims of global supremacy of a specific god date to the Late Bronze Age, with Akhenaten's Great Hymn to the Aten (connected to Judaism by Sigmund Freud in his Moses and Monotheism),ect ." look under monotheism in wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.8 ( talk) 23:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The third sentence of this article begins with "The Jews have suffered a long history of persecution in many different lands". This is an extraordinarily emotive sentence. I'm not claiming that it isn't true, and indeed there are whole articles devoted to exploring it, but is it really how we want to set the tone for an entire article about the word "Jew"? It says to the reader, right off the bat, that the concept of "Jew" is all about being perscuted. This is surely a stereotype we wish to avoid. I suggest that the sentence be rephrased to state simply that jewish populations have fluctuated for a variety of reasons, moving the reference to persecution further down the article (the section equally emotively headed "wars against the jews" would seem like the sensible place). I apologise for lacking the boldness to do this myself, but I am sure many of you will understand why. Magnate ( talk) 10:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)