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... in this article is once again getting terribly long. There is a separate, more comprehensive list elsewhere. The list here should include only people who are internationally famous and whose Jewishness is somehow significant.
I would suggest removing:
In preference to Douglas and Seinfeld, I'd consider Woody Allen, as emphatically Jewish as Seinfeld and as internationally famous as Douglas.
I would also suggest that the list, which is woefully short on women, might include Anne Frank, whose fame is strongly related to the fact of her being Jewish.
I would also consider adding Ludwig Wittgenstein, arguably the most important pholosopher or the 20th century. Certainly he ought to be more important than Isaac Levitan. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:53, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)
Jmabel, the point of these names was to give some examples of ethnic Jews in our times that are key historical figures, they needn't be famous for doing something Jewish, altho some of them did participate in Jewish life. But I agre that some names must go, as there are those "lists" of Jews by country now. IZAK 15:18, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Our current intro says, in part:
Ethnic Jews include both so-called "observant Jews," meaning those who practice the Biblical and Rabbinic laws, known as the halakha, and so-called "secular Jews," those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense.
This sets up a dichotomy that leaves out Reform Judaism and, arguably, some Conservative Jews as well. Reform Judaism generally rejects the bulk of halakha; Conservative Judiasm accepts it only in part. However, neither would necessarily consider themselves "secular", and they certainly would describe themselves as "practicing Judaism as a religion". -- Jmabel | Talk 00:04, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
Ethnic Jews include both so-called "religious Jews," meaning those who practice Judaism, and so-called "secular Jews," those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense.
I'm happy with this. I'll edit accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:37, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
Deleted "as they view it as their only true home in a world rife with Anti-Semitism rooted in a long history of anti-Semitism and hostile to the Jewish people." and added fact that immigration has slowed and many Jews have left Israel due to economic pressure and disillusionment with the right-wing militarist policies and ongoing conflict. -- Alberuni 17:23, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I thought that Reform Judaism came about in the 19th century following the teachings of rabbis like Samuel Holdheim and Isaac Mayer Wise. I'm not an adherant to this particular strain of Judaism so I may have my facts wrong, could someone please clarify. The article suggests that it emerged in the late 20th century, along with Reconstitutionist Judaism, which I'm sure is not right. Rje 04:05, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I just wanted to let y'all know that I protected the page following the recent onslaught of vandals. -- Schnee 21:40, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've unprotected the page now. Please reprotect if the vandalism resumes. -- The Anome 07:06, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Remember that it is the serpents of kingdom of israel that edit wikipedia, or their goyim servants. There is an army of scurrying zionist Jews reading and editing everything here to make sure their relgion and their nation of israel is always championed and nothing negative, even if fair, is said about them. Take everything that Wikipedia promotes as 'established fact' with a giant pinch of salt, as more often than not it it just the ranting of prozionist israeli's or those that follow the faith of judaism. I have also noted that a lot of the vandalism of the site and subsequent locking of the threads occurs after someone attempts to legitimately edit misinformation of propaganda on the encyclopedia entry. As soon as this is noted by certain editors, then an anonymous 'hacker' will come along and take the whole entry down or replace it with insults, thus justifying the editor/admin blocking the article and then replacing the original valid edits with their 'idea of the truth'. This is the same tactic that certain unscrupulous individials do in real life situations. An example being jews staging anti semitic attacks on themselves or on synagogues to try and keep the myth of antisemitism ticking over, or so they can continue to promote the idea they are 'socities victims' in the public mindset. It is also done so they can justify their obsession with promoting themselves at the expense of all others.
Excised text:
Removed from the article, unprofessional and a questionable form of search engine optimisation in any case. -- Tim Starling 15:21, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
The point of the off topic entry was that it was going to be removed, but hopefully it would encourage people to use the topic in the body more often. To think that Wikipedia is somehow removed from "questionable form of search engine optimisation in any case" is naive. The only reason this page gets so much traffic is because of that optimisation.
One section of the article says: "Progressive Judaism (an organization to which both Reconstructionist Judaism and U.S. Reform Judaism belong) accepts bilineal descent; notably, the Reform movement in the UK does not, while the Liberal movement in the same country does."
I was under the impression that outside of America, Liberal Judaism = Reform Judaism. Did I miss something?-- Josiah 02:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zain Engineer, Palestinians worldwide are not living in Israel, and Jews are a majority in Israel. Jayjg 19:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Segment | Population |
Jews in Israeel according to this Page | 5.2 Million |
Total Population of Palestenians World Wide | 9.6 Million |
Percentage Living in Palestenian Authority | 3.7 Million (38%) |
Total Population of Israel (Wikipedia) | 6.8 Million |
Non-Jews Living in Israel Excluding PA | 1.6 Million (6.8-5.2) |
Total Non-Jew Population in Israel and PA | 5.3 Million |
Hang on Zain - Israel means "lands officially annexed by Israel or taken in 1948", not "lands controlled by Israel which it hasn't annexed precisely because it doesn't want a majority Palestinian population." No reason to endorse any more Israeli expansionism than we absolutely have to... Now if you said "in the region of Palestine, that would be a different matter. - Mustafaa 00:30, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Side note: the use of "Jew" as an adjective (e.g. "Jew population") is generally considered offensive. It should be "Jewish population". I'm guessing that this was an oversight in Zain's comment above, so no offense taken; just thought I'd note it in case anyone might look at this and think it was appropriate usage. --
Jmabel |
Talk 19:25, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
14:54, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Conclusions (For those who want to skip to the end)
"I think we have to be consistent we have to decide either population of occupied lands are part of Israel or Not" is a fair objection to the original wording; the recently suggested solution of substituting "citizens of Israel", irrespective of where they live, seems to solve that. - Mustafaa 16:52, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with making it citizens of Israel - that is why I made that change originally. Citizen is unambigious and binary - you either are or are not a citizen of Israel. Zain, you may argue over who ought to be a citizen of which country, or what a final settlement should look like, but there is no ambiguity or POV bias in pointing out that there are 5.3 million Jewish Israeli citizens, an 80% majority among the citizens of Israel. Also, as I pointed out in the above section, it would have also been correct to use the terms "residents" or even "population," regardless of whether you accept the international definition of Israel (1967 borders) or any other definition, since Jews are still in majority in the combined population of Israel plus the West Bank and Gaza, but I don't think there is any need to get into semantics, since it is irrelevant to the entry for "Jews" and the existing compromise seems fine. In short, I am happy, and Mustafaa seems happy with it - can we close this out? -- Goodoldpolonius2 20:35, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well I think now we have reduce (although not eliminated) the differences (I think that initial debate of having majority population and not mentioning Jewish population in PA at the same time has gone for good) thing which is left is who is 'legal citizen' which roots into the question of who will decide which 'legal body' will decide 'citizenship' so we can declare a clear citizen majority of jewish population in Israel. Problem is that Israel it self as a 'legal body' is not recognizes by many countries and those coutnries which recognize it, right of Palestinian refugees to return is big number (if not the majority). Although I personally don't think many of these countries will go into small details like citizenship for statistics but if we only consider countries which don't recognize as a 'legal body' which can issue 'citizenship' the majority of jewish citizen in Israel will still be at least arguable. So we at best can say that citizenship of Israelis is disputed equivalently citizenship of Palestinian refugees is disputed. Although for other countries it is not the problem, you can easily say without any major debate that who is citizen (at least upto the level where it seriously impacts statistics). Let's say Nazis Capture France and expel many French and declares that all French population are 'non-citizens'. Then assigning 'citizenship' to Hitler alone will make Germans 'majority citizens' of France!. I am not saying that Jewish population is same in israel as Nazis in France I mean that mere occupation of land is not a full justification to declare 'citizenship' you have to consider other factors too of course this page is not to decide who is 'legal authority' to decide citizenship. And neither I mean that we should apply same principle every where that whoever claims citizenship of a land/country makes citizenship disputed. What I mean that in case of israel citizenship is highly disputed bcoz things related to ownership and citizenship in this land are major dispute through out the world. We here can not resolve these disputes but at minimum we can say it is disputed. If some people say that citizenship problem is not worth mentioning a single word (that is 'arguable') I'll like them to give the example of the article King of Jerusalem in which it is stated that even currently there are people who proclaim to be King of Jerusalem. If some body with such vague arguments can claim to be King of the Land and it is worth mentioning so much. Why not 9.5 million People with a lot batter arguments and a lot more global acceptance can worth a single word! (arguable that is) for some of readers all those arguments might not be acceptable as true but at least for many they will prove to be enough to call it argueable to at least the level worth a single word (that is 'argueable') with regards
Well I was wondering should I give my approach “Talk first and Edit Later” another try. Or should I leave accepting that on wikipedia you cannot “outargue”, if you are outnumbered, even if our arguments make sense ( I am not saying that Israel has no right to decide its citizens merely that it is disputed). Then I though may be as factual arguments helped end the concept of having “Jewish Population majority” and “No Jewish Population in PA” ”Simultaneously”, may be the concept that Israel’s right to assign “citizenship” to 13-18 million Jews (if it desires) and stripping Palestinians of the same right whether they live in Israeli controlled areas or refugees, simultaneously, is an undoubted fact, can also be negated. So I in ‘good faith’ trying ‘yet’ again.
First I should reply to the questions raised by my friends above to my proposal. Then I should give comprehensive points in a systematic manner to support my case.
First here are answers to the questions raised, in Question to answer fashion:
It is not limited to small number of Arab countries for example Pakistan (a non-Arab country) also doesn’t recognize Israel ‘legal rights’, including its right to declare citizens. And Pakistan’s Muslim population, alone makes ’10 times more Muslims then All jews in entire world’, who disagree with this Israeli ‘legal right’. Here I don’t want to make a list of the countries who recognize or who don’t recognize Israel’s ‘Legal authorities’ like deciding citizenship. Or saying that as Muslims outnumber Jews by 1-100 ratio their, So opinion should be written 100 times more then opinion of Jews in all articles regardless of whether they are facts or not. What I want to say is that Israel ‘Legal authority’ to assign ‘citizenship’, although might not be valid ,but at very least arguable. And worth mentioning a single word that is ‘arguable’.
Concept that muslims say israel ‘doesn’t exist’ is wrong. What they disagree with is the, Israeli ‘legal authority’ to occupy ‘Palestinian land’, detaining people and among others ‘legal aurhority’ to declare ‘citizenship’. And to have a legitimate ‘authority’ to declare ‘citizenship’ is not a ‘fact’ it is just an opinion which in this case is disputed or arguable so it is worth mentioning a single word ‘arguable’.
I didn’t dispute any thing about Jews but only disputed when there is no mention of ‘jewish population in PA’ and declaring all Muslims living in those areas as non-citizens simultaneously . I don’t say we should write that Israel has no right on declaring Jews around the world as citizens (if it does) . I mean that, “Israel having right to declare Jews around the world as citizens (if it does)”, ‘there is no need of mentioning Jewish Population in PA in this article but it should be shown as Jewish population in Israel’ and ‘Israel right to declare such a big group of people non-citizens living in the same area, whose jewish population doesn’t require to be mentioned separately in this article but should be shown as population of israel’ doing all of this simultaneously if not incorrect it at very least ‘arguable’ or ‘disputeable’.
Although this article shouldn’t be place for holding debate over Israeli-Muslim conflict. But if for statistical reasons we have to count the Jewish population in ‘Israel’ for ‘jewish population majority in Israel’ Or ‘Jewish citizen majority in Israel’ and ‘To decide whether some of the population resides in Israel or PA’, deciding ‘Israel area’ and ‘Israel right to grant citizenship’ is inevitable So to avoid getting ourselves into these kind of disputes we should simply add a foot note or comment or any thing which is disputed. For details plz see my argument above of "Muslim Israel Conflict" Now Let me quote some other statements which were given against me.
But there is yet very important statement see below
This statement is Key to my case about citizenship is “arguable” as my friend pointed out that, if israel goverment or israel Law declares some body ‘citizen’ of Israel it can still be ‘factually incorrect’ what I have argued is much lesser then this. I want to say that if Israel government or Israel Law declares some body ‘citizen’ of Israel that is ‘factually arguable’ (even lighter word then ‘disputable’ let alone the ‘factually incorrect’ wording).
Now Let me put my points in a systematic way.
Declare that: Israel doesn’t exist. Jews don’t live in Israel, Jewish Population in Israel shouldn’t be counted, Jewish population in PA should be mentioned under all conditions, Israel ‘authority’ to declare ‘citizenship’ is not acceptable to a majority.
I disagree with, “not mentioning jewish population in PA” and “declaring jewish ‘citizen majority’ in Israel simultaneously” is an ‘unarguable’ ‘fact’.
To accept both things simultateously undisputed. Logically all of the followings need to true simultaneously.
so may be you disagree with point 1,2,3 or even 4 but taking all as ‘undisputed’ and not worth mentioning ‘argueable’ or ‘disputeable’ is not ‘factual’.
What I suggest to resolve it
Although I believe the last statement will cause the most heat from pro-Israel readers. And other statements might be less offending.
So all of the four statements are acceptable for me. You might choose any of them.
Side Note: Places where ‘occupation authority’ is not recognize as the ‘legal authority’ is not limited to Israel alone. For me the most ridicules example of this is “Taiwan”. Taiwan for a long time was recognized by USA and many other countries as ‘True’ ‘Legal authority’ of china, which meant that Chinese communist government is merely an ‘occupantion authority’. What’s more funny for me is that Taiwan held china seat in U.N, only bcoz it was ‘TRUE’ ‘Legal Chinese government’ and Even had the VETO POWER bcoz it was ‘true Legal Chinese government’
China and the United Nations. And the phenomenon of distinction between ‘occupation authority’ and ‘legal authority’ is not just past. A recent example of this is
Taliban ‘occupation’ of
Afghanistan although they occupied 90% of the
Afghanistan and arguably had a lot wider support then earlier occupations i.e. soviet but still they were not recognized as ‘legal authority’ even though lesser popular soviet were recognized as ‘legal authority’ and during
Taliban era most of the world recognized “Burhan ud din Rubbani” (I bet most of you have never even heard of him) as ‘legal authority head’ his ‘government’ had legal rights including membership of U.N. and other international organizations. Although It is almost never possible to declare a clear ‘legal authority’ in case of major disputes, we should simply write ‘disputeable’ or at very least ‘arguable’ if such situation arise.
A Response
Zain, again, thanks for continuing to discuss. I understand your passion on these points, but this is pretty simple, however. States can determine their own citizenship requirements. Not arguably - actually. Taiwan issues passports and determines who its citizens are, even if China disputes its existance. The fact that Taiwan has decided who its citizens are is indisputable - even if China's 1 billion people say otherwise. What, exactly, is arguable about Israeli citizens being majority Jewish? They are, factually.
You are making a catagory mistake here, Zain, confusing citizenship with the right to hold certain territory. Deciding citizenship is an absolute right afforded to states while the right to hold certain territory is not. Further, the fact that anyone feels that Israeli citizens should not be citizens is not relevent, any more than 1 billion people might wish that Bill Clinton was not an American citizen - he is. Citizenship, when accepted by the people made citizens, is the absolute perogetive of the country issuing citizenship, and thus is a fact, even if the decision seems unfair. The same works to states not granting citizenship to people who you might feel deserve it. Egyptian citizen law, for example, says that women may not pass on citizenship to children born to non-Egyptian husbands. That might seem unfair to many women's right activists, but it does not change the fact that they are not citizens of Egypt. The fact that Arab states, in accordance with their 1959 agreement, withhold citizenship from Palestinians may also seem unfair, but it does not make Palestinians living for 55 years in Egypt, Lebanon, or Syria citizens of those countries.
Your objections do not hold up as a result, specifically:
Perhaps another way to put this, Zain. Take the factual sentence: "Jews are a majority of Israel's citizens." What formulation of that sentence would you accept without adding the word "disputedly"? I am curious as to your response. --
Goodoldpolonius2 22:51, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay. For the record, I consider this point closed, as your arguments, impassioned as they are, do not seem to be drawing a consensus - Mustafaa is happy, and everyone else seems happy about the current text save you. However, because I am a glutton for punishment, let me try one more time to convince you.
-- Goodoldpolonius2 06:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First if there is any other method to talk on this issue further without making this page long, I’ll like to be informed so to avoid this page from becoming more messy.
First definitions of ‘disputed’ which I referred earlier (see definitions on google of word disputed), are not ‘mine’ and was not from a single source and here too instead of rejecting the definition itself, you have rejected it due to the, ‘consequences’ what this ‘definition’ might have. If we take this approach I’ll suggest you an easier path for rejecting my disagreements, that is, you can say as
You can see in light of this, that we have to accept or reject argument itself, not the ‘conclusions’ which it might draw, then on the basis of these arguments we accept or reject ‘conclusions’, not the other way around. Although I agree that, drawing consequences might give you an orientation that what this ‘argument’ might imply, to help you get a better understanding of the argument, So you might ‘dispute’ with it, but rejection of ‘conclusion’, as a sole ground to reject ‘argument’ is not correct. Now about your statement
Well problem is that ‘political science’ hasn’t evolve to the level of ‘physical sciences’, which can help us distinguish between political issues as ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’, scientifically. So you can see on wikipedia itself that, scientific topics are generally not subject of that much dispute, and when if disputed topics are described in articles, their ‘description’ is of lesser controversy then the subject itself. So the definitions of the word ‘dispute’, which are very acceptable definitions through out ‘English speaking’ and ‘English understanding’ world, can be used here with even a lesser hesitation, lesser then in the case of a non-political issue.
Well you again skipped (2nd in a row now) my point 1, without answering it, may be because you know that it is not easy question to answer. If you say that point 1 is invalid and ‘occupation doesn’t mean right to grant citizenship’ the whole theory of Israel’s ‘legal authority’ (please see the word ‘legal authority’ not ‘ability’), becomes a lot weaker. As I gave example of Taliban ‘legal authority’ in Afghanistan was disputed, although the ‘occupation’ of Taliban and their ‘ability’ was not in question, what was in question, was that ‘how to describe it’ not that ‘how it effects its inhabitants’, both are not same, like UN didn’t accepted the ‘legal authority’ of Taliban ,but in a hijacking, in which a plane was hijacked from India, UN seeked Taliban help because of their ‘ability’, although declining their ‘legal authority’ and of course, ‘occupation’ is all you need to have ‘ability’ to do things. To whether or not ‘occupation’ gives ‘legal authority’ to ‘declare citizenship’ is very important for this discussion. And then the question comes that, is this ‘legal authority’ is a ‘disputed’ or ‘undisputed fact’.
I quote you here
Let’s assume which you stated, is an ‘undisputed fact’. Now try to imagine following situation, cuba quite a non-concerned country. Declares that, ‘All muslims are now citizens of Israel’. (Or some other population group like, Christians or seculars or entire world population )Now let’s say all Muslims in the world accept this agreement. So as your statement is an ‘undisputed fact’, it doesn’t matter what opinion jews or any other in the world might have on this contract, let alone the ‘validity’ or ‘invalidity’ of citizenship, because citizenship is only a two-way agreement, if both parties agree, no doubts should be raised by people ‘outside the contract’. As your statement needs to be true in israel context too. Now the situation becomes that 5-6 million jews are citizen of israel(you can extend it to entire 13 million jews if you want) But now 1.3 billion Muslims are also ‘citizens’ of Israel as per your ‘undisputed fact’ about the nature of ‘citizenship’. So as in this page then, we have to use this ‘undisputed fact’ of the nature of citizenship. Now the situation becomes that, muslim will make a 99% ‘citizen majority’ of the Israel! (if this happen) You might agree with such ‘undisputed facts’, but I see ‘citizenship’ as only a two way agreement, very disputed (if not ‘incorrect’).
You stated
Well it doesn’t even now, they lag behind non-jews by about 0.1 million, as I showed in the table earlier (which had population of each segment separately, and then their sum), Still as the difference is small One, for the compromises/Corrections which I suggested was to use the word ‘near majority’ or ‘almost majority’ of resident population. Which will be very factual, without being ‘controversial’ , ‘disputed’ , ‘arguable’ or ‘incorrect’.
Well you skipped that point too. It is quite clear from the wording of the article about this ‘breakup’, is that it is ‘population breakup’ by using the words like ‘Total population’ and ’ Significant geographic populations’ . But when ‘validity’ of these stats are questioned, the answer to the ‘opposers’ is given that, it is ‘citizen breakup’ not a ‘population breakup’ and yet more, these stats are an ‘undisputed fact’. I think we should end this ‘two opposite faces’ of same facts.
I am using wording of ‘disagreements’, rather then ‘disputes’ because the definition of disputes itself is (which I believe unfairly) questioned here. Now here are agreements and disagreements, listing them might or might not be able to eliminate disagreement, but at least point to the differences which might help to understand different point of views (if they can’t be accommodated).
Side Note: Reason for mentioning disagreements in such a way that, it is disagreed by you only is not that, I think you are the one who are making all the disagreements. It is merely because if my interpretation that, any of these statements are disagreed by you, you can simply move that statement to agreed section without changing it. Same I’ll request from you.
Does anyone know if the anonymous, uncited, and uncommented addition of " Chile: 30,000 (est.)" is correct? Sounds likely enough, but we've had so much vandalism on this page I begin to doubt anything anonymous and uncited. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:28, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Mustafaa, I was wondering where you get your stastistics concerning Mizrahi Jews who fled their Arab homes.-- Josiah 01:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Mustafa is right -- The International Federation of Jewish Refugees From Muslim-Arab Countries says "Some 900,000 Jews left Arab countries after 1948 and more than 600,000 went to Israel. They and their descendants now make up around half of Israel’s Jewish population. Today, fewer than 8,000 Jews remain in Arab countries; some states, such as Libya, were totally emptied of their Jewish populations."
Stats that I found from the Mellon Institute's Arab World Project that connects a number of US university's middle east studies departments here: "In fact, the Arab countries of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen alone are estimated to have had a Jewish population of about 400,000 in the mid-1940s. Now there are only about 300 Jews remaining in Syria, and fewer still in Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen.... 1947 Egyptian census listed 65,639 Jews, most of whom lived in Cairo, with a small group in Alexandria. Cairo, like Baghdad, also had a large indigenous Jewish population [no significant amount remain]... "
Goodoldpolonius2 08:20, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article feels really choppy, and I wanted to see if I could gather some support for some reshaping (keeping existing content). I am happy to do a lot of the work, but I don't want to start without discussion. My proposal is below.
I think we are pretty okay, although a little inelegant, through ethnic divisions and maybe even Jewish languages, and then things get strange. The migration piece is a good idea, but it is only part of a history. I would propose a short history of the Jews instead, explaining the nature of ancient Israel, the Diaspora, and the current world, we also should have a longer history section, discussed below. The famous Jews section should probably be moved towards the end, unless we really feel that it is a critical thing to list a Jew or two early on. Conversion to Judiasm doesn't seem to fit here at all, especially as we are dealing with the ethnic, not religious, aspects of Jewishness; I say cut it.
The section on ancient israelites and schisms feels like a part of the history of Jews, but there is no middle ages or modern history to compliment it - we just move into persecution. Perhaps we should put in a better summary of what the Jews were up to besides being persecuted during this time - like how Judiasm was shaped by its own internal efforts combined with the persecution of the outside world. A good rewrite of history is needed, as much is missing, and relatively small groups, like Karaite Judaism, get more airtime than the entire history of the Jews in Arab lands; or the movement of Jews from Spain to Eastern Europe; or the waves of expulsions in the middle ages. This brings us to persecution, which is an important topic, but one that is not clearly described within the context of Jewish history, instead there is a set of random oppressors of the Jews. Better to explain the nature of the persecution within a timeframe, and how persecution shaped Jewish identity, than to lump together modern Arab states with ancient Caliphates, and explain 1900 years of Christian persecution with a sentence or two.
I think the leadership section is fine at the end. World population, however, should be moved up to the begining, as it is a key question that anyone reading the article should know, and covers the major population centers of Jews today.
So, that's my proposal, a summary of which is below. Any thoughts? -- Goodoldpolonius2 08:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Contents
1 Etymology -> keep
2 Who is a Jew? -> keep
3 Jewish cultural traits ->keep
4 Ethnic divisions -> keep
5 Jewish languages -> keep
6 Migrations -> change to "short history"
7 Famous Jews -> move to end
8 Conversion to Judaism -> subpoint of who is a jew
9 Ancient Israelites and Judeans -> combine with below into "longer history", move lower
10 Ancient schisms among the Jews -> see above
11 Persecution -> keep, but place in context of the short history section
12 Jewish leadership -> keep
13 World population -> move up above jewish languages
14 Decrease and growth -> include as part of world poplation
15 Related topics -> keep
Seriously, no thoughts on this? What is proper wikkiediquette here, how long before I give this a shot? (The community can always revert)-- Goodoldpolonius2 07:12, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I reorganized. I cut no text, just moved things around and edited headers a little. I added missing sections on Jewish history after the Romans, but it is really, really light - please feel free to add to it. -- Goodoldpolonius2 21:39, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Unclear phrase in Renaissance and Englightenment section: "...incited to Jews to leave..." "...incited to Jews..." doesn't make sense. I'm guessing this is either "...incited Jews to leave..." or even "...invited Jews to leave...", but either of these would still be a bit unclear. A previous version had "...allowed Jews to leave..." which is clearer (but may not cover the facts). "Allowed" would suggest just repeal of restrictive laws, "invited" would imply that plus an appeal of some sort, "incited" would imply active agitation. Just what happened? Maybe this merits another sentence (or at least another phrase) in the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:23, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
I've archived old discussions and interminable arguments in Talk:Jew/Archive 10, which now contains 85K of material, most of it the discussion about citizenship. If anyone wishes to continue that discussion, they can do so there. Jayjg 23:35, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
OK leave the question of citizenship for now, because it has a lot of technical issues involved with it prolonging debate, beside I have never seen any body declaring some segment of population as 'citizen majority', normally 'population majority' is used, and in almost all other cases there is no real statistical difference that result from differentiating between them.
What about need of mentioning of ‘Jewish population ' in PA, in ‘population breakup?’, as you said it is not part of Israel, or having the side note that the 'breakup' is actually a 'citizen breakup' not a 'population breakup' and providing a link to ‘population breakup’ if some body is interested in 'population breakup'. Please see disagreement section if you disagree.
This is a very very very very (repeated 1000 times) gigantic page that takes a long time to load. What can we do?? 66.245.73.39 01:13, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I will try to work on a suitable template, maybe like Template:DreyfusAffair (rather small) or Template:Sep11 (good for a large topic). IZAK 19:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would suggest that dividing the article is not a good solution. Some subjects are complicated, and require a longer treatment, even if specific topics are referred to on other pages -- people should be able to look up "Jew" and get an understanding of the Jewish people, rather than a list of links. Otherwise, this article becomes an outline, rather than a starting point for research. It could be worse, as britannica.com says: "Ersch and Gruber's enormous Allgemeine Encyclopädie (“General Encyclopaedia”; 1818–89) has been cited as a true example of the medieval “summa”—it is famed for including the longest article in any encycopedia, that on Greece, which fills 3,668 pages in volumes 80–87." -- Goodoldpolonius2 15:11, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
OK, it took a few hours, but finally the new template {{Jew}} is activated. I have moved some sections from the main Jew article to some newly-created articles with the same names as the sub-headings in the main article. No material was lost or edited when it was transferred. The main article is now UNDER 32K for the first time in many years, and NOTHING is lost, because now by looking at the "Jew" table (created by the "Jew template") any reader/editor/User can easily go to the articles they need. The challenge now will be to editorially monitor more articles relating to "Jew" (but that is all "par for the course" at Wikipedia.) Please look at the articles and add appropriate materials as we now have more space within them. Thanks, and Happy Chanuka! IZAK 11:45, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, welcome the new Wikipedia {{Judaism-stub}} Template:Judaism-stub [7]. There is also a new {{Israel-stub}} Template:Israel-stub [8]. Please use them when coming across relevant "stub" articles. Thanks a lot. IZAK 14:31, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've posted this to IZAK's talk page, but there's no reason not to share it with you. I find the Star of David table now a bit uncomfortably positioned in the article, mainly because the series box is so long. There's an alternative at User:JRM/Sandbox, let me know what you think. There's still the general issue of the table containing some information redundant with the series box, but that's another matter. JRM 19:00, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
JRM: As I noted in my reply to you on my talk page: Your template is far too "cramped" and makes reading it harder on the eyes. It is important that each article have only its own line to keep things clear as in the original format. IZAK 04:55, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For what it's worth to anyone: I've updated User:JRM/Sandbox to match the current content. Obviously I'm not going to make changes people disagree with. As for "harder on the eyes": you really don't want a screenshot of what the "Europe" section now looks like on my browser. There is such a thing as compromise. Separate lines are nice, but when you get a series box the size of the Eiffel tower, running all the way through the article, there might be value in reconsidering. Plus, in my version the placing of the Star of David table is not tied to some arbitrary section. Still, de gustibus non est disputandum. JRM 14:58, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)
Hi JRM: I am only referring to the {{Jew}} template which does NOT have a Star of David in it (so I am confused why you refer to it that way), and your version still comes out much too cramped and looks like an even longer macaroni version of the "Eiffel Tower", with periods in it that make it look "pocked". The box with the Star of David in it is something else, done by User:Jmabel originally, and is ONLY on the original Jew article page. We should get his input as well, hopefully. I still like the version I created better, and I cannot understand why you want to create an even longer elongated copy of it that "cramps up" the information. The reason there is no easy way out here is precisely because the original Jew article was over-laden with information and had already spawned several spin-off articles before this current re-design which makes this "coming together again" through the new Jew template an important resource that unites all the most relevant articles relating to Jew. Thanks again. IZAK 20:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I strongly object to the removal of the standard InfoBox for ethnic groups from this page. We have boxes like this for several dozen ethnic groups and have steadily been adding more. It was the upshot of extensive discussion. At IZAK's behest, half a year or so ago I made some adaptations to the box because he found its then-standard colors objectionable. I am not willing to agree to its removal from this page just on his say-so, although I would bow to a strong consensus. As I remember, IZAK originally objected to this box because he (and pretty much he alone) didn't like the characterization of Jews as an ethnic group. I cannot help feeling that this recent change is a backdoor way of trying to reverse a decision that went against his wishes earlier.
As for the newly added template: I think it is basically good. In some ways, it might create fewer layout problems if it were mainly horizontal and went at the bottom of the many articles it is in, but if it is to be vertical, I see no problem with IZAK's original width for it, although I think mid-dots are fine where they allow multiple items on a line; n-dashes would be another alternative. I do think it could be less verbose in many places, which would make it much smaller. I suspect that the following is not all that can be done, but consider what might be done to the following sections (I have not reproduced the entire table, only the parts that I think could easily be more compressed; also, I've concerned myself entirely with tightening text, not with how wide we make the table.):
Jmabel: It was User:JRM who was complaining that your "ethnic box" was taking up too much room. There was indeed too much "dead space" especially on the left-hand side column that contained only "titles" and not statistics. Now that the "vertical" {{Jew}} template is here containing ALL your original "ethnic" information, there is no point in having duplicate tables. The new template is a link with its ethnic info is linked to far more articles, so your concerns and work on "ethnicity" is not being limited, on the contrary it's being spread to a far wider audience. Once again, in any case, the Jews are not just an ethnicity (as they are "non-exclusive" and have representation on/from every continent) and cannot be tied to "formulas" that may apply to other groups. IZAK 03:25, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Updated on 12/12: Given this division, some of the articles in the template were in desperate need of help. I got caught up in a wiki-binge and created a number of new articles, modifying the template slightly to accomodate.
Still needing work:
-- Goodoldpolonius2 20:27, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC), updated -- Goodoldpolonius2 06:30, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I know it's not a mainstream Jewish sect, but shouldn't there be a short bit on this, or at least a link to the article on it?
Rabbinic Judaism is based from the Babylonian Talmud, not from the Palestinian Talmud, no matter whether it is Ashkenazic or Sephardic. I wonder who the scholars mentioned in the ethnicity section are? I never heard that theory.
Of course, there is a great deal of speculation on what the Judaism of the majority really looked like in the first millenium of our era - maybe the mysterious sentence is a shadow of that? Hasdrubal 05:12, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Just for the record: I have reverted exactly one of Hasdrubal's many edits, the one that removed mention of matrilineality from the lead. Most of what he did looked reasonable to me, but I haven't read it all closely. Since we've had a lot of issues over maintaining consensus on this article as it's developed, and since these changes don't look trivial, is there at least one other of the major authors of this to date who endorses Hasdrubal's edits? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:39, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
These are the two main branches of UK Orthodoxy. Can someone create an article for them?
This is an encyclopaedia article, not a political or religious pamphlet. We ought to try to state what are generally acknowledged to be facts by historians, biologists, archaeologists, etc. From time to time, statements may be made that do not accord with what one party or the other would call "Torah-true teaching" or "Jewish teaching" or "progressive Jewish teaching" or "traditional Jewish teaching". This is not very relevant. This is an article about the Jewish people and the history - not a record of what some member of the Jewish people have thought about its history in the 18th century, in the 6th century, or currently. Hasdrubal 19:51, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Dear Jmabel and Jayjg: I was away for a long while. I see that (a) IZAK reverted all my edits, and (b) his accusation (?) that I was somehow a Mormon (quite false - though perhaps besides the point) was successful in keeping things his way.
I feel no need to apologize. I believe that the edits I made reflected current scholarly consensus. I have had an interesting and illuminating discussion with Jayjg elsewhere about modern scholars and their sources; in comparison, what I see below is an ad hominem attack.
I do not know whether it is of any use to try to contribute to this article, as IZAK seems to believe that he owns it and has the right to own it. Hasdrubal 23:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I reverted edits by User:212.2.169.96 that stated that the name "Palestine" postdated "Judea" and "Israel" and was imposed by the Romans. I'm not absolutely certain, and I don't have a source handy, but since "Palestine" is a cognate of "Philistine" this seems very unlikely. A cited source for what we say now might be in order; in any case, I will not accept an uncited change. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:18, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
Jmabel is right. The renaming of the province should not be confused with origin of the much older name Palestine, which was used by Herodotus. The earliest attestation of the term "Israel" is on the Merneptah Stele, right next to the word "Palestine": ""Israel is desolated, his seed is not; Palestine is become a widow for Egypt." - Mustafaa 13:43, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is not clear in the context how either Israel or Palestine is being used on that stela - whether as a regional term or an ethnic one, and if the former, how wide the intended reference is. Herodotus' use of Palestine is certainly intended to encompass a rather wide area. Both terms may be much later than Judea/Judah, but given the rarity of early references, that would be a hard claim to prove. When is the earliest attestation of the word Judah? - Mustafaa 14:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As an interesting illustration of how some issues only became sensitive when the Zionist-Arab conflict began: I looked up "Judea" in the 1901-6 Jewish Encyclopedia and all it says is "See Palestine". [9] -- Zero 13:49, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Waldemar Haffkine is certainly notable enough to merit an article, but not nearly famous enough to belong in a short, illustrative list of famous Jews. However, as I earlier suggested, would people please comment out any even halfway-reasonable names they disagree with in that list instead of deleting, to make it easier to see what is being contested? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:57, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
... in this article is once again getting terribly long. There is a separate, more comprehensive list elsewhere. The list here should include only people who are internationally famous and whose Jewishness is somehow significant.
I would suggest removing:
In preference to Douglas and Seinfeld, I'd consider Woody Allen, as emphatically Jewish as Seinfeld and as internationally famous as Douglas.
I would also suggest that the list, which is woefully short on women, might include Anne Frank, whose fame is strongly related to the fact of her being Jewish.
I would also consider adding Ludwig Wittgenstein, arguably the most important pholosopher or the 20th century. Certainly he ought to be more important than Isaac Levitan. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:53, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)
Jmabel, the point of these names was to give some examples of ethnic Jews in our times that are key historical figures, they needn't be famous for doing something Jewish, altho some of them did participate in Jewish life. But I agre that some names must go, as there are those "lists" of Jews by country now. IZAK 15:18, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Our current intro says, in part:
Ethnic Jews include both so-called "observant Jews," meaning those who practice the Biblical and Rabbinic laws, known as the halakha, and so-called "secular Jews," those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense.
This sets up a dichotomy that leaves out Reform Judaism and, arguably, some Conservative Jews as well. Reform Judaism generally rejects the bulk of halakha; Conservative Judiasm accepts it only in part. However, neither would necessarily consider themselves "secular", and they certainly would describe themselves as "practicing Judaism as a religion". -- Jmabel | Talk 00:04, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
Ethnic Jews include both so-called "religious Jews," meaning those who practice Judaism, and so-called "secular Jews," those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense.
I'm happy with this. I'll edit accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:37, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
Deleted "as they view it as their only true home in a world rife with Anti-Semitism rooted in a long history of anti-Semitism and hostile to the Jewish people." and added fact that immigration has slowed and many Jews have left Israel due to economic pressure and disillusionment with the right-wing militarist policies and ongoing conflict. -- Alberuni 17:23, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I thought that Reform Judaism came about in the 19th century following the teachings of rabbis like Samuel Holdheim and Isaac Mayer Wise. I'm not an adherant to this particular strain of Judaism so I may have my facts wrong, could someone please clarify. The article suggests that it emerged in the late 20th century, along with Reconstitutionist Judaism, which I'm sure is not right. Rje 04:05, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I just wanted to let y'all know that I protected the page following the recent onslaught of vandals. -- Schnee 21:40, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've unprotected the page now. Please reprotect if the vandalism resumes. -- The Anome 07:06, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Remember that it is the serpents of kingdom of israel that edit wikipedia, or their goyim servants. There is an army of scurrying zionist Jews reading and editing everything here to make sure their relgion and their nation of israel is always championed and nothing negative, even if fair, is said about them. Take everything that Wikipedia promotes as 'established fact' with a giant pinch of salt, as more often than not it it just the ranting of prozionist israeli's or those that follow the faith of judaism. I have also noted that a lot of the vandalism of the site and subsequent locking of the threads occurs after someone attempts to legitimately edit misinformation of propaganda on the encyclopedia entry. As soon as this is noted by certain editors, then an anonymous 'hacker' will come along and take the whole entry down or replace it with insults, thus justifying the editor/admin blocking the article and then replacing the original valid edits with their 'idea of the truth'. This is the same tactic that certain unscrupulous individials do in real life situations. An example being jews staging anti semitic attacks on themselves or on synagogues to try and keep the myth of antisemitism ticking over, or so they can continue to promote the idea they are 'socities victims' in the public mindset. It is also done so they can justify their obsession with promoting themselves at the expense of all others.
Excised text:
Removed from the article, unprofessional and a questionable form of search engine optimisation in any case. -- Tim Starling 15:21, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
The point of the off topic entry was that it was going to be removed, but hopefully it would encourage people to use the topic in the body more often. To think that Wikipedia is somehow removed from "questionable form of search engine optimisation in any case" is naive. The only reason this page gets so much traffic is because of that optimisation.
One section of the article says: "Progressive Judaism (an organization to which both Reconstructionist Judaism and U.S. Reform Judaism belong) accepts bilineal descent; notably, the Reform movement in the UK does not, while the Liberal movement in the same country does."
I was under the impression that outside of America, Liberal Judaism = Reform Judaism. Did I miss something?-- Josiah 02:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zain Engineer, Palestinians worldwide are not living in Israel, and Jews are a majority in Israel. Jayjg 19:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Segment | Population |
Jews in Israeel according to this Page | 5.2 Million |
Total Population of Palestenians World Wide | 9.6 Million |
Percentage Living in Palestenian Authority | 3.7 Million (38%) |
Total Population of Israel (Wikipedia) | 6.8 Million |
Non-Jews Living in Israel Excluding PA | 1.6 Million (6.8-5.2) |
Total Non-Jew Population in Israel and PA | 5.3 Million |
Hang on Zain - Israel means "lands officially annexed by Israel or taken in 1948", not "lands controlled by Israel which it hasn't annexed precisely because it doesn't want a majority Palestinian population." No reason to endorse any more Israeli expansionism than we absolutely have to... Now if you said "in the region of Palestine, that would be a different matter. - Mustafaa 00:30, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Side note: the use of "Jew" as an adjective (e.g. "Jew population") is generally considered offensive. It should be "Jewish population". I'm guessing that this was an oversight in Zain's comment above, so no offense taken; just thought I'd note it in case anyone might look at this and think it was appropriate usage. --
Jmabel |
Talk 19:25, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
14:54, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Conclusions (For those who want to skip to the end)
"I think we have to be consistent we have to decide either population of occupied lands are part of Israel or Not" is a fair objection to the original wording; the recently suggested solution of substituting "citizens of Israel", irrespective of where they live, seems to solve that. - Mustafaa 16:52, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with making it citizens of Israel - that is why I made that change originally. Citizen is unambigious and binary - you either are or are not a citizen of Israel. Zain, you may argue over who ought to be a citizen of which country, or what a final settlement should look like, but there is no ambiguity or POV bias in pointing out that there are 5.3 million Jewish Israeli citizens, an 80% majority among the citizens of Israel. Also, as I pointed out in the above section, it would have also been correct to use the terms "residents" or even "population," regardless of whether you accept the international definition of Israel (1967 borders) or any other definition, since Jews are still in majority in the combined population of Israel plus the West Bank and Gaza, but I don't think there is any need to get into semantics, since it is irrelevant to the entry for "Jews" and the existing compromise seems fine. In short, I am happy, and Mustafaa seems happy with it - can we close this out? -- Goodoldpolonius2 20:35, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well I think now we have reduce (although not eliminated) the differences (I think that initial debate of having majority population and not mentioning Jewish population in PA at the same time has gone for good) thing which is left is who is 'legal citizen' which roots into the question of who will decide which 'legal body' will decide 'citizenship' so we can declare a clear citizen majority of jewish population in Israel. Problem is that Israel it self as a 'legal body' is not recognizes by many countries and those coutnries which recognize it, right of Palestinian refugees to return is big number (if not the majority). Although I personally don't think many of these countries will go into small details like citizenship for statistics but if we only consider countries which don't recognize as a 'legal body' which can issue 'citizenship' the majority of jewish citizen in Israel will still be at least arguable. So we at best can say that citizenship of Israelis is disputed equivalently citizenship of Palestinian refugees is disputed. Although for other countries it is not the problem, you can easily say without any major debate that who is citizen (at least upto the level where it seriously impacts statistics). Let's say Nazis Capture France and expel many French and declares that all French population are 'non-citizens'. Then assigning 'citizenship' to Hitler alone will make Germans 'majority citizens' of France!. I am not saying that Jewish population is same in israel as Nazis in France I mean that mere occupation of land is not a full justification to declare 'citizenship' you have to consider other factors too of course this page is not to decide who is 'legal authority' to decide citizenship. And neither I mean that we should apply same principle every where that whoever claims citizenship of a land/country makes citizenship disputed. What I mean that in case of israel citizenship is highly disputed bcoz things related to ownership and citizenship in this land are major dispute through out the world. We here can not resolve these disputes but at minimum we can say it is disputed. If some people say that citizenship problem is not worth mentioning a single word (that is 'arguable') I'll like them to give the example of the article King of Jerusalem in which it is stated that even currently there are people who proclaim to be King of Jerusalem. If some body with such vague arguments can claim to be King of the Land and it is worth mentioning so much. Why not 9.5 million People with a lot batter arguments and a lot more global acceptance can worth a single word! (arguable that is) for some of readers all those arguments might not be acceptable as true but at least for many they will prove to be enough to call it argueable to at least the level worth a single word (that is 'argueable') with regards
Well I was wondering should I give my approach “Talk first and Edit Later” another try. Or should I leave accepting that on wikipedia you cannot “outargue”, if you are outnumbered, even if our arguments make sense ( I am not saying that Israel has no right to decide its citizens merely that it is disputed). Then I though may be as factual arguments helped end the concept of having “Jewish Population majority” and “No Jewish Population in PA” ”Simultaneously”, may be the concept that Israel’s right to assign “citizenship” to 13-18 million Jews (if it desires) and stripping Palestinians of the same right whether they live in Israeli controlled areas or refugees, simultaneously, is an undoubted fact, can also be negated. So I in ‘good faith’ trying ‘yet’ again.
First I should reply to the questions raised by my friends above to my proposal. Then I should give comprehensive points in a systematic manner to support my case.
First here are answers to the questions raised, in Question to answer fashion:
It is not limited to small number of Arab countries for example Pakistan (a non-Arab country) also doesn’t recognize Israel ‘legal rights’, including its right to declare citizens. And Pakistan’s Muslim population, alone makes ’10 times more Muslims then All jews in entire world’, who disagree with this Israeli ‘legal right’. Here I don’t want to make a list of the countries who recognize or who don’t recognize Israel’s ‘Legal authorities’ like deciding citizenship. Or saying that as Muslims outnumber Jews by 1-100 ratio their, So opinion should be written 100 times more then opinion of Jews in all articles regardless of whether they are facts or not. What I want to say is that Israel ‘Legal authority’ to assign ‘citizenship’, although might not be valid ,but at very least arguable. And worth mentioning a single word that is ‘arguable’.
Concept that muslims say israel ‘doesn’t exist’ is wrong. What they disagree with is the, Israeli ‘legal authority’ to occupy ‘Palestinian land’, detaining people and among others ‘legal aurhority’ to declare ‘citizenship’. And to have a legitimate ‘authority’ to declare ‘citizenship’ is not a ‘fact’ it is just an opinion which in this case is disputed or arguable so it is worth mentioning a single word ‘arguable’.
I didn’t dispute any thing about Jews but only disputed when there is no mention of ‘jewish population in PA’ and declaring all Muslims living in those areas as non-citizens simultaneously . I don’t say we should write that Israel has no right on declaring Jews around the world as citizens (if it does) . I mean that, “Israel having right to declare Jews around the world as citizens (if it does)”, ‘there is no need of mentioning Jewish Population in PA in this article but it should be shown as Jewish population in Israel’ and ‘Israel right to declare such a big group of people non-citizens living in the same area, whose jewish population doesn’t require to be mentioned separately in this article but should be shown as population of israel’ doing all of this simultaneously if not incorrect it at very least ‘arguable’ or ‘disputeable’.
Although this article shouldn’t be place for holding debate over Israeli-Muslim conflict. But if for statistical reasons we have to count the Jewish population in ‘Israel’ for ‘jewish population majority in Israel’ Or ‘Jewish citizen majority in Israel’ and ‘To decide whether some of the population resides in Israel or PA’, deciding ‘Israel area’ and ‘Israel right to grant citizenship’ is inevitable So to avoid getting ourselves into these kind of disputes we should simply add a foot note or comment or any thing which is disputed. For details plz see my argument above of "Muslim Israel Conflict" Now Let me quote some other statements which were given against me.
But there is yet very important statement see below
This statement is Key to my case about citizenship is “arguable” as my friend pointed out that, if israel goverment or israel Law declares some body ‘citizen’ of Israel it can still be ‘factually incorrect’ what I have argued is much lesser then this. I want to say that if Israel government or Israel Law declares some body ‘citizen’ of Israel that is ‘factually arguable’ (even lighter word then ‘disputable’ let alone the ‘factually incorrect’ wording).
Now Let me put my points in a systematic way.
Declare that: Israel doesn’t exist. Jews don’t live in Israel, Jewish Population in Israel shouldn’t be counted, Jewish population in PA should be mentioned under all conditions, Israel ‘authority’ to declare ‘citizenship’ is not acceptable to a majority.
I disagree with, “not mentioning jewish population in PA” and “declaring jewish ‘citizen majority’ in Israel simultaneously” is an ‘unarguable’ ‘fact’.
To accept both things simultateously undisputed. Logically all of the followings need to true simultaneously.
so may be you disagree with point 1,2,3 or even 4 but taking all as ‘undisputed’ and not worth mentioning ‘argueable’ or ‘disputeable’ is not ‘factual’.
What I suggest to resolve it
Although I believe the last statement will cause the most heat from pro-Israel readers. And other statements might be less offending.
So all of the four statements are acceptable for me. You might choose any of them.
Side Note: Places where ‘occupation authority’ is not recognize as the ‘legal authority’ is not limited to Israel alone. For me the most ridicules example of this is “Taiwan”. Taiwan for a long time was recognized by USA and many other countries as ‘True’ ‘Legal authority’ of china, which meant that Chinese communist government is merely an ‘occupantion authority’. What’s more funny for me is that Taiwan held china seat in U.N, only bcoz it was ‘TRUE’ ‘Legal Chinese government’ and Even had the VETO POWER bcoz it was ‘true Legal Chinese government’
China and the United Nations. And the phenomenon of distinction between ‘occupation authority’ and ‘legal authority’ is not just past. A recent example of this is
Taliban ‘occupation’ of
Afghanistan although they occupied 90% of the
Afghanistan and arguably had a lot wider support then earlier occupations i.e. soviet but still they were not recognized as ‘legal authority’ even though lesser popular soviet were recognized as ‘legal authority’ and during
Taliban era most of the world recognized “Burhan ud din Rubbani” (I bet most of you have never even heard of him) as ‘legal authority head’ his ‘government’ had legal rights including membership of U.N. and other international organizations. Although It is almost never possible to declare a clear ‘legal authority’ in case of major disputes, we should simply write ‘disputeable’ or at very least ‘arguable’ if such situation arise.
A Response
Zain, again, thanks for continuing to discuss. I understand your passion on these points, but this is pretty simple, however. States can determine their own citizenship requirements. Not arguably - actually. Taiwan issues passports and determines who its citizens are, even if China disputes its existance. The fact that Taiwan has decided who its citizens are is indisputable - even if China's 1 billion people say otherwise. What, exactly, is arguable about Israeli citizens being majority Jewish? They are, factually.
You are making a catagory mistake here, Zain, confusing citizenship with the right to hold certain territory. Deciding citizenship is an absolute right afforded to states while the right to hold certain territory is not. Further, the fact that anyone feels that Israeli citizens should not be citizens is not relevent, any more than 1 billion people might wish that Bill Clinton was not an American citizen - he is. Citizenship, when accepted by the people made citizens, is the absolute perogetive of the country issuing citizenship, and thus is a fact, even if the decision seems unfair. The same works to states not granting citizenship to people who you might feel deserve it. Egyptian citizen law, for example, says that women may not pass on citizenship to children born to non-Egyptian husbands. That might seem unfair to many women's right activists, but it does not change the fact that they are not citizens of Egypt. The fact that Arab states, in accordance with their 1959 agreement, withhold citizenship from Palestinians may also seem unfair, but it does not make Palestinians living for 55 years in Egypt, Lebanon, or Syria citizens of those countries.
Your objections do not hold up as a result, specifically:
Perhaps another way to put this, Zain. Take the factual sentence: "Jews are a majority of Israel's citizens." What formulation of that sentence would you accept without adding the word "disputedly"? I am curious as to your response. --
Goodoldpolonius2 22:51, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay. For the record, I consider this point closed, as your arguments, impassioned as they are, do not seem to be drawing a consensus - Mustafaa is happy, and everyone else seems happy about the current text save you. However, because I am a glutton for punishment, let me try one more time to convince you.
-- Goodoldpolonius2 06:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First if there is any other method to talk on this issue further without making this page long, I’ll like to be informed so to avoid this page from becoming more messy.
First definitions of ‘disputed’ which I referred earlier (see definitions on google of word disputed), are not ‘mine’ and was not from a single source and here too instead of rejecting the definition itself, you have rejected it due to the, ‘consequences’ what this ‘definition’ might have. If we take this approach I’ll suggest you an easier path for rejecting my disagreements, that is, you can say as
You can see in light of this, that we have to accept or reject argument itself, not the ‘conclusions’ which it might draw, then on the basis of these arguments we accept or reject ‘conclusions’, not the other way around. Although I agree that, drawing consequences might give you an orientation that what this ‘argument’ might imply, to help you get a better understanding of the argument, So you might ‘dispute’ with it, but rejection of ‘conclusion’, as a sole ground to reject ‘argument’ is not correct. Now about your statement
Well problem is that ‘political science’ hasn’t evolve to the level of ‘physical sciences’, which can help us distinguish between political issues as ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’, scientifically. So you can see on wikipedia itself that, scientific topics are generally not subject of that much dispute, and when if disputed topics are described in articles, their ‘description’ is of lesser controversy then the subject itself. So the definitions of the word ‘dispute’, which are very acceptable definitions through out ‘English speaking’ and ‘English understanding’ world, can be used here with even a lesser hesitation, lesser then in the case of a non-political issue.
Well you again skipped (2nd in a row now) my point 1, without answering it, may be because you know that it is not easy question to answer. If you say that point 1 is invalid and ‘occupation doesn’t mean right to grant citizenship’ the whole theory of Israel’s ‘legal authority’ (please see the word ‘legal authority’ not ‘ability’), becomes a lot weaker. As I gave example of Taliban ‘legal authority’ in Afghanistan was disputed, although the ‘occupation’ of Taliban and their ‘ability’ was not in question, what was in question, was that ‘how to describe it’ not that ‘how it effects its inhabitants’, both are not same, like UN didn’t accepted the ‘legal authority’ of Taliban ,but in a hijacking, in which a plane was hijacked from India, UN seeked Taliban help because of their ‘ability’, although declining their ‘legal authority’ and of course, ‘occupation’ is all you need to have ‘ability’ to do things. To whether or not ‘occupation’ gives ‘legal authority’ to ‘declare citizenship’ is very important for this discussion. And then the question comes that, is this ‘legal authority’ is a ‘disputed’ or ‘undisputed fact’.
I quote you here
Let’s assume which you stated, is an ‘undisputed fact’. Now try to imagine following situation, cuba quite a non-concerned country. Declares that, ‘All muslims are now citizens of Israel’. (Or some other population group like, Christians or seculars or entire world population )Now let’s say all Muslims in the world accept this agreement. So as your statement is an ‘undisputed fact’, it doesn’t matter what opinion jews or any other in the world might have on this contract, let alone the ‘validity’ or ‘invalidity’ of citizenship, because citizenship is only a two-way agreement, if both parties agree, no doubts should be raised by people ‘outside the contract’. As your statement needs to be true in israel context too. Now the situation becomes that 5-6 million jews are citizen of israel(you can extend it to entire 13 million jews if you want) But now 1.3 billion Muslims are also ‘citizens’ of Israel as per your ‘undisputed fact’ about the nature of ‘citizenship’. So as in this page then, we have to use this ‘undisputed fact’ of the nature of citizenship. Now the situation becomes that, muslim will make a 99% ‘citizen majority’ of the Israel! (if this happen) You might agree with such ‘undisputed facts’, but I see ‘citizenship’ as only a two way agreement, very disputed (if not ‘incorrect’).
You stated
Well it doesn’t even now, they lag behind non-jews by about 0.1 million, as I showed in the table earlier (which had population of each segment separately, and then their sum), Still as the difference is small One, for the compromises/Corrections which I suggested was to use the word ‘near majority’ or ‘almost majority’ of resident population. Which will be very factual, without being ‘controversial’ , ‘disputed’ , ‘arguable’ or ‘incorrect’.
Well you skipped that point too. It is quite clear from the wording of the article about this ‘breakup’, is that it is ‘population breakup’ by using the words like ‘Total population’ and ’ Significant geographic populations’ . But when ‘validity’ of these stats are questioned, the answer to the ‘opposers’ is given that, it is ‘citizen breakup’ not a ‘population breakup’ and yet more, these stats are an ‘undisputed fact’. I think we should end this ‘two opposite faces’ of same facts.
I am using wording of ‘disagreements’, rather then ‘disputes’ because the definition of disputes itself is (which I believe unfairly) questioned here. Now here are agreements and disagreements, listing them might or might not be able to eliminate disagreement, but at least point to the differences which might help to understand different point of views (if they can’t be accommodated).
Side Note: Reason for mentioning disagreements in such a way that, it is disagreed by you only is not that, I think you are the one who are making all the disagreements. It is merely because if my interpretation that, any of these statements are disagreed by you, you can simply move that statement to agreed section without changing it. Same I’ll request from you.
Does anyone know if the anonymous, uncited, and uncommented addition of " Chile: 30,000 (est.)" is correct? Sounds likely enough, but we've had so much vandalism on this page I begin to doubt anything anonymous and uncited. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:28, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Mustafaa, I was wondering where you get your stastistics concerning Mizrahi Jews who fled their Arab homes.-- Josiah 01:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Mustafa is right -- The International Federation of Jewish Refugees From Muslim-Arab Countries says "Some 900,000 Jews left Arab countries after 1948 and more than 600,000 went to Israel. They and their descendants now make up around half of Israel’s Jewish population. Today, fewer than 8,000 Jews remain in Arab countries; some states, such as Libya, were totally emptied of their Jewish populations."
Stats that I found from the Mellon Institute's Arab World Project that connects a number of US university's middle east studies departments here: "In fact, the Arab countries of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen alone are estimated to have had a Jewish population of about 400,000 in the mid-1940s. Now there are only about 300 Jews remaining in Syria, and fewer still in Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen.... 1947 Egyptian census listed 65,639 Jews, most of whom lived in Cairo, with a small group in Alexandria. Cairo, like Baghdad, also had a large indigenous Jewish population [no significant amount remain]... "
Goodoldpolonius2 08:20, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article feels really choppy, and I wanted to see if I could gather some support for some reshaping (keeping existing content). I am happy to do a lot of the work, but I don't want to start without discussion. My proposal is below.
I think we are pretty okay, although a little inelegant, through ethnic divisions and maybe even Jewish languages, and then things get strange. The migration piece is a good idea, but it is only part of a history. I would propose a short history of the Jews instead, explaining the nature of ancient Israel, the Diaspora, and the current world, we also should have a longer history section, discussed below. The famous Jews section should probably be moved towards the end, unless we really feel that it is a critical thing to list a Jew or two early on. Conversion to Judiasm doesn't seem to fit here at all, especially as we are dealing with the ethnic, not religious, aspects of Jewishness; I say cut it.
The section on ancient israelites and schisms feels like a part of the history of Jews, but there is no middle ages or modern history to compliment it - we just move into persecution. Perhaps we should put in a better summary of what the Jews were up to besides being persecuted during this time - like how Judiasm was shaped by its own internal efforts combined with the persecution of the outside world. A good rewrite of history is needed, as much is missing, and relatively small groups, like Karaite Judaism, get more airtime than the entire history of the Jews in Arab lands; or the movement of Jews from Spain to Eastern Europe; or the waves of expulsions in the middle ages. This brings us to persecution, which is an important topic, but one that is not clearly described within the context of Jewish history, instead there is a set of random oppressors of the Jews. Better to explain the nature of the persecution within a timeframe, and how persecution shaped Jewish identity, than to lump together modern Arab states with ancient Caliphates, and explain 1900 years of Christian persecution with a sentence or two.
I think the leadership section is fine at the end. World population, however, should be moved up to the begining, as it is a key question that anyone reading the article should know, and covers the major population centers of Jews today.
So, that's my proposal, a summary of which is below. Any thoughts? -- Goodoldpolonius2 08:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Contents
1 Etymology -> keep
2 Who is a Jew? -> keep
3 Jewish cultural traits ->keep
4 Ethnic divisions -> keep
5 Jewish languages -> keep
6 Migrations -> change to "short history"
7 Famous Jews -> move to end
8 Conversion to Judaism -> subpoint of who is a jew
9 Ancient Israelites and Judeans -> combine with below into "longer history", move lower
10 Ancient schisms among the Jews -> see above
11 Persecution -> keep, but place in context of the short history section
12 Jewish leadership -> keep
13 World population -> move up above jewish languages
14 Decrease and growth -> include as part of world poplation
15 Related topics -> keep
Seriously, no thoughts on this? What is proper wikkiediquette here, how long before I give this a shot? (The community can always revert)-- Goodoldpolonius2 07:12, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I reorganized. I cut no text, just moved things around and edited headers a little. I added missing sections on Jewish history after the Romans, but it is really, really light - please feel free to add to it. -- Goodoldpolonius2 21:39, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Unclear phrase in Renaissance and Englightenment section: "...incited to Jews to leave..." "...incited to Jews..." doesn't make sense. I'm guessing this is either "...incited Jews to leave..." or even "...invited Jews to leave...", but either of these would still be a bit unclear. A previous version had "...allowed Jews to leave..." which is clearer (but may not cover the facts). "Allowed" would suggest just repeal of restrictive laws, "invited" would imply that plus an appeal of some sort, "incited" would imply active agitation. Just what happened? Maybe this merits another sentence (or at least another phrase) in the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:23, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
I've archived old discussions and interminable arguments in Talk:Jew/Archive 10, which now contains 85K of material, most of it the discussion about citizenship. If anyone wishes to continue that discussion, they can do so there. Jayjg 23:35, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
OK leave the question of citizenship for now, because it has a lot of technical issues involved with it prolonging debate, beside I have never seen any body declaring some segment of population as 'citizen majority', normally 'population majority' is used, and in almost all other cases there is no real statistical difference that result from differentiating between them.
What about need of mentioning of ‘Jewish population ' in PA, in ‘population breakup?’, as you said it is not part of Israel, or having the side note that the 'breakup' is actually a 'citizen breakup' not a 'population breakup' and providing a link to ‘population breakup’ if some body is interested in 'population breakup'. Please see disagreement section if you disagree.
This is a very very very very (repeated 1000 times) gigantic page that takes a long time to load. What can we do?? 66.245.73.39 01:13, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I will try to work on a suitable template, maybe like Template:DreyfusAffair (rather small) or Template:Sep11 (good for a large topic). IZAK 19:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would suggest that dividing the article is not a good solution. Some subjects are complicated, and require a longer treatment, even if specific topics are referred to on other pages -- people should be able to look up "Jew" and get an understanding of the Jewish people, rather than a list of links. Otherwise, this article becomes an outline, rather than a starting point for research. It could be worse, as britannica.com says: "Ersch and Gruber's enormous Allgemeine Encyclopädie (“General Encyclopaedia”; 1818–89) has been cited as a true example of the medieval “summa”—it is famed for including the longest article in any encycopedia, that on Greece, which fills 3,668 pages in volumes 80–87." -- Goodoldpolonius2 15:11, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
OK, it took a few hours, but finally the new template {{Jew}} is activated. I have moved some sections from the main Jew article to some newly-created articles with the same names as the sub-headings in the main article. No material was lost or edited when it was transferred. The main article is now UNDER 32K for the first time in many years, and NOTHING is lost, because now by looking at the "Jew" table (created by the "Jew template") any reader/editor/User can easily go to the articles they need. The challenge now will be to editorially monitor more articles relating to "Jew" (but that is all "par for the course" at Wikipedia.) Please look at the articles and add appropriate materials as we now have more space within them. Thanks, and Happy Chanuka! IZAK 11:45, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, welcome the new Wikipedia {{Judaism-stub}} Template:Judaism-stub [7]. There is also a new {{Israel-stub}} Template:Israel-stub [8]. Please use them when coming across relevant "stub" articles. Thanks a lot. IZAK 14:31, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've posted this to IZAK's talk page, but there's no reason not to share it with you. I find the Star of David table now a bit uncomfortably positioned in the article, mainly because the series box is so long. There's an alternative at User:JRM/Sandbox, let me know what you think. There's still the general issue of the table containing some information redundant with the series box, but that's another matter. JRM 19:00, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
JRM: As I noted in my reply to you on my talk page: Your template is far too "cramped" and makes reading it harder on the eyes. It is important that each article have only its own line to keep things clear as in the original format. IZAK 04:55, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For what it's worth to anyone: I've updated User:JRM/Sandbox to match the current content. Obviously I'm not going to make changes people disagree with. As for "harder on the eyes": you really don't want a screenshot of what the "Europe" section now looks like on my browser. There is such a thing as compromise. Separate lines are nice, but when you get a series box the size of the Eiffel tower, running all the way through the article, there might be value in reconsidering. Plus, in my version the placing of the Star of David table is not tied to some arbitrary section. Still, de gustibus non est disputandum. JRM 14:58, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)
Hi JRM: I am only referring to the {{Jew}} template which does NOT have a Star of David in it (so I am confused why you refer to it that way), and your version still comes out much too cramped and looks like an even longer macaroni version of the "Eiffel Tower", with periods in it that make it look "pocked". The box with the Star of David in it is something else, done by User:Jmabel originally, and is ONLY on the original Jew article page. We should get his input as well, hopefully. I still like the version I created better, and I cannot understand why you want to create an even longer elongated copy of it that "cramps up" the information. The reason there is no easy way out here is precisely because the original Jew article was over-laden with information and had already spawned several spin-off articles before this current re-design which makes this "coming together again" through the new Jew template an important resource that unites all the most relevant articles relating to Jew. Thanks again. IZAK 20:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I strongly object to the removal of the standard InfoBox for ethnic groups from this page. We have boxes like this for several dozen ethnic groups and have steadily been adding more. It was the upshot of extensive discussion. At IZAK's behest, half a year or so ago I made some adaptations to the box because he found its then-standard colors objectionable. I am not willing to agree to its removal from this page just on his say-so, although I would bow to a strong consensus. As I remember, IZAK originally objected to this box because he (and pretty much he alone) didn't like the characterization of Jews as an ethnic group. I cannot help feeling that this recent change is a backdoor way of trying to reverse a decision that went against his wishes earlier.
As for the newly added template: I think it is basically good. In some ways, it might create fewer layout problems if it were mainly horizontal and went at the bottom of the many articles it is in, but if it is to be vertical, I see no problem with IZAK's original width for it, although I think mid-dots are fine where they allow multiple items on a line; n-dashes would be another alternative. I do think it could be less verbose in many places, which would make it much smaller. I suspect that the following is not all that can be done, but consider what might be done to the following sections (I have not reproduced the entire table, only the parts that I think could easily be more compressed; also, I've concerned myself entirely with tightening text, not with how wide we make the table.):
Jmabel: It was User:JRM who was complaining that your "ethnic box" was taking up too much room. There was indeed too much "dead space" especially on the left-hand side column that contained only "titles" and not statistics. Now that the "vertical" {{Jew}} template is here containing ALL your original "ethnic" information, there is no point in having duplicate tables. The new template is a link with its ethnic info is linked to far more articles, so your concerns and work on "ethnicity" is not being limited, on the contrary it's being spread to a far wider audience. Once again, in any case, the Jews are not just an ethnicity (as they are "non-exclusive" and have representation on/from every continent) and cannot be tied to "formulas" that may apply to other groups. IZAK 03:25, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Updated on 12/12: Given this division, some of the articles in the template were in desperate need of help. I got caught up in a wiki-binge and created a number of new articles, modifying the template slightly to accomodate.
Still needing work:
-- Goodoldpolonius2 20:27, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC), updated -- Goodoldpolonius2 06:30, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I know it's not a mainstream Jewish sect, but shouldn't there be a short bit on this, or at least a link to the article on it?
Rabbinic Judaism is based from the Babylonian Talmud, not from the Palestinian Talmud, no matter whether it is Ashkenazic or Sephardic. I wonder who the scholars mentioned in the ethnicity section are? I never heard that theory.
Of course, there is a great deal of speculation on what the Judaism of the majority really looked like in the first millenium of our era - maybe the mysterious sentence is a shadow of that? Hasdrubal 05:12, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Just for the record: I have reverted exactly one of Hasdrubal's many edits, the one that removed mention of matrilineality from the lead. Most of what he did looked reasonable to me, but I haven't read it all closely. Since we've had a lot of issues over maintaining consensus on this article as it's developed, and since these changes don't look trivial, is there at least one other of the major authors of this to date who endorses Hasdrubal's edits? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:39, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
These are the two main branches of UK Orthodoxy. Can someone create an article for them?
This is an encyclopaedia article, not a political or religious pamphlet. We ought to try to state what are generally acknowledged to be facts by historians, biologists, archaeologists, etc. From time to time, statements may be made that do not accord with what one party or the other would call "Torah-true teaching" or "Jewish teaching" or "progressive Jewish teaching" or "traditional Jewish teaching". This is not very relevant. This is an article about the Jewish people and the history - not a record of what some member of the Jewish people have thought about its history in the 18th century, in the 6th century, or currently. Hasdrubal 19:51, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Dear Jmabel and Jayjg: I was away for a long while. I see that (a) IZAK reverted all my edits, and (b) his accusation (?) that I was somehow a Mormon (quite false - though perhaps besides the point) was successful in keeping things his way.
I feel no need to apologize. I believe that the edits I made reflected current scholarly consensus. I have had an interesting and illuminating discussion with Jayjg elsewhere about modern scholars and their sources; in comparison, what I see below is an ad hominem attack.
I do not know whether it is of any use to try to contribute to this article, as IZAK seems to believe that he owns it and has the right to own it. Hasdrubal 23:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I reverted edits by User:212.2.169.96 that stated that the name "Palestine" postdated "Judea" and "Israel" and was imposed by the Romans. I'm not absolutely certain, and I don't have a source handy, but since "Palestine" is a cognate of "Philistine" this seems very unlikely. A cited source for what we say now might be in order; in any case, I will not accept an uncited change. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:18, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
Jmabel is right. The renaming of the province should not be confused with origin of the much older name Palestine, which was used by Herodotus. The earliest attestation of the term "Israel" is on the Merneptah Stele, right next to the word "Palestine": ""Israel is desolated, his seed is not; Palestine is become a widow for Egypt." - Mustafaa 13:43, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is not clear in the context how either Israel or Palestine is being used on that stela - whether as a regional term or an ethnic one, and if the former, how wide the intended reference is. Herodotus' use of Palestine is certainly intended to encompass a rather wide area. Both terms may be much later than Judea/Judah, but given the rarity of early references, that would be a hard claim to prove. When is the earliest attestation of the word Judah? - Mustafaa 14:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As an interesting illustration of how some issues only became sensitive when the Zionist-Arab conflict began: I looked up "Judea" in the 1901-6 Jewish Encyclopedia and all it says is "See Palestine". [9] -- Zero 13:49, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Waldemar Haffkine is certainly notable enough to merit an article, but not nearly famous enough to belong in a short, illustrative list of famous Jews. However, as I earlier suggested, would people please comment out any even halfway-reasonable names they disagree with in that list instead of deleting, to make it easier to see what is being contested? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:57, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)