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The article as it now stands doesn't really directly bring together the two explanatory facts that under the Tsarist regime, the Jews were both highly oppressed and highly educated, which fairly naturally led to the result that they were significantly represented in most opposition groups that had any kind of somewhat congenial ideology...
Also, for a number of decades (certainly as late as the 1960s, perhaps beyond), if there was any distinctively Saudi approach to Israel and the Arab-Israeli conflict, it was that pretty much all Zionists or Zionist leaders were Communists who wanted to "Bolshevize" the middle east... AnonMoos ( talk) 06:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Based on the closed discussion above, I believe there is a clear consensus that the subject of this article is:
"1.the theory that Bolshevism was the product of a supposed international Jewish conspiracy to run the world,"
Does anyone have a basis for disagreement that such is the consensus, based on the discussion? John2510 ( talk) 15:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
How is the demonic depiction of Trotsky at the head of this page relevant to the article? As far as I can see, there is no mention of Jews in the poster. Zero talk 06:03, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
How about [1] ? -- Soman ( talk) 05:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
To get back on subject, I oppose the removal of the image and would like to see the article returned to the status quo ante in this regard. -- Director ( talk) 10:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Please stop removing the edit. The source is Time Magazine. Lenin was partly Jewish. Also the Wikipedia article on Lenin states -- "Lenin's father, Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov, had come from a serf background but had studied physics and maths at Kazan State University before teaching at the Penza Institute for the Nobility.[2] Introduced to Maria Alexandrovna Blank, they married in the summer of 1863.[3] From a relatively prosperous background, Maria was the daughter of a Russian Jewish physician."
So to say that he was not Jewish in this article is a lie. He did have Jewish ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.232.41 ( talk) 00:10, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm confused about what this means stated throughout this page regarding % of jews in army at different times: Judaism is not an ethnicity - it's a religion, so why different categories? and how do we know accuracy...did russian soldiers who were jewish check a box that said "jew" or "russian"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.191.108 ( talk) 03:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions Should clear things up-- 198.151.130.239 ( talk) 00:19, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
See Jews and Communism, seemingly a WP:FORK of what has been discussed at length here. -- Soman ( talk) 00:08, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
There's an issue over the sentence: According to
Hannah Arendt, herself the daughter of Jews and the wife of a Marxist, it was "the most efficient fiction of Nazi Propaganda"
specifically the issue of how germane the fact that Arendt was the daughter of Jews and the spouse of a Marxist. It would seem to me that this article is about this confluence of ethnic Jews and Marxism and Arendt is another example of this phenomena. I'm not sure if the concern is that including the "daughter of... wife of..." phrase seemingly detracts from her quote or if some editors think this inclusion smacks of pro-Nazi antisemitism. I think it should be included.
Chris Troutman (
talk) 00:12, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
68.34.91.226 ( talk · contribs) The neutrality of this article has been discussed before. You're welcome to discuss it again, although I recommend you bring reliable sources with you. Otherwise, discontinue using the edit summary to justify tagging the page without defending your charge here. Also, please show me these "standards" you claim we have here at Wikipedia and which ones you think we're violating. Chris Troutman ( talk) 21:21, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
The only way to cure the inaccuracies in this article would be to remove it completely, and start from scratch. Literally every paragraph is poisoned with bias. Isn't Wikipedia supposed to be edited by people? This reads like an AIPAC member's wet dream from start to finish. Complete revisionist garbage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.63.45 ( talk) 02:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jews_and_Communism_(2nd_nomination). Thanks. MarkBernstein ( talk) 21:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
To editor Altenmann: One cannot replace a sourced paragraph with a single unsourced sentence under the claim of "summarizing." Chris Troutman ( talk) 05:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I would like to add: Though Lenin had Jewish roots. [2] The article as it exists contains a factual error. When I correct the article someone keeps erasing my correction. Why does someone want to preserve this error?! Jimjilin ( talk) 11:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Now someone thinks mentioning the Jewish roots of the most important Bolshevik leader does not belong in an article about Jewish Bolshevism! Jimjilin ( talk) 02:54, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
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Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 7.4 KB I have set the time setting to a relatively moderate 30 days but a higher value might be considered. Gregkaye ( talk) 13:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Jewish Bolshevism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would request that the line "Scholars dismiss this theory" either be cited or deleted. I'm not arguing that Jewish Bolshevism is not an antisemitic canard, I am arguing that such an authoritative statement demands citation. 71.74.155.212 ( talk) 06:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
There were acutally 964 Jews. See here: http://books.google.de/books?id=dLdhSUZI-AYC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=964+jews+communist+party&source=bl&ots=xY3_70voRk&sig=M_Zwa-PQ7Ecv2HWN6kyc7pd7gXI&hl=de&sa=X&ei=45WAVKK5DIXEPfPDgaAF&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=964%20jews%20communist%20party&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.183.206.146 ( talk) 17:16, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
This whole article could be called one big euphemism, but it is more than that. It is a play with words, nuances and selected details and facts, that misleads the reader. The one-sided presentation is on the verge of sophistry! As person with relevant knowledge and background, especially that of an academic I find this yellow journalism offensive, even more so when it is presented in Wikipedia which goes under the banner of good encyclopedic standards. This article must been cleaned up! RudiLefkowitz ( talk) 07:09, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
A lot of info, but one-sided, if not slanted, because there are good reasons for taking the alliance of Jews with anti-aristocratic movements seriously. They were part of the "democracy" and remain so to this day. While it can be, and has been, argued that they took up money-lending, etc because they were outcasts, they had long been a commercial people, and still largely are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.26.8 ( talk) 19:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
The two links to scholars listed after the sentence "Scholars dismiss this theory".[3] [4]. Both link to Jewish owned sites and a Jewish writer. Are there no impartial "scholars"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.31.231 ( talk) 05:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The sentences "Researchers in the topic, such as Polish philosopher Stanisław Krajewski "[3] or André Gerrits, [4] denounce the concept of "Jewish Bolshevism" as a prejudice. Law professor Ilya Somin agrees, and compares Jewish involvement in other communist countries." Lists three Jewish researchers, are their no impartial? Maybe remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.31.231 ( talk) 06:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
This article downplays the evidence of Jewish involvement in Communism. It shows statistics of mass-party membership and the rubber stamp Congress of Soviets to claim Jews were not overrepresented, but the charge has always been that people of Jewish or partial Jewish descent were the leaders of the Bolsheviks. The first Soviet politburo for example contained four Jews or part-Jews (Lenin, Trotsky, Kamenev, Krestinsky) and one gentile (Stalin). Considering that Jews were only 4% of the Russian Empire's population the chances of 80% of the politburo having a Jewish background by chance alone is nil.
Also, Jewish involvement in other countries Communist Parties is ignored, for example 33% of Communist Party USA Central Committee members were Jewish. Jews were also the primary victims of the McCarthy era. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.186.73.113 ( talk) 16:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree. Even lenins Jewish Family seems to be forgotten even though he is mentioned in this regard in other places. /info/en/?search=Category:Russian_people_of_Jewish_descent Eisenstein as well /info/en/?search=Category:Russian_people_of_German-Jewish_descent
Another point would be that the German Revolution deserves sepparate mention, without jumping straight to nazi germany. It is a cheap oversimplification in order to prove the established conclusion, that it is simply a cheap invention.
Many of the leaders of the german revolutionaries
/info/en/?search=German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319 , including all the most prominent leaders, Luxemburg, Radek, Zetkin, Levin, Levi, and Liebknecht, were of Jewish decent.
The Revolution in germany, and the political constilations of the weimar republic deserve mention, it will demonstrate a large amout of jews, that were later harrassed and arrested by the nazis, also in part lending validity to nazi claims,. You might not like that, but noting is born out of a vacume.
77.87.48.144 (
talk) 21:49, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.87.48.144 ( talk) 21:13, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Winston Churchill said openly that the Russian revolution was lead by international jews.
The American intelligence officer in Russia at the time, Captain Schuyler, wrote of it official reports: "It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning, guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greatest type..." Link to actual image of the report: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Telegram_02a.jpg
"The Bolshevik leaders here, most of whom are Jews and 90 percent of whom are returned exiles, care little for Russia or any other country but are internationalists and they are trying to start a worldwide social revolution" - David Francis, American Ambassador to Russia at the time of the Revolution - U.S. National Archives
There are numerous other official and mainstream sources from this time period attesting to the Jews' lead role in the Bolshevik Revolution.
It's hard to see how the matter is even controversial with so much historical evidence. 72.73.109.108 ( talk) 14:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Of course Schuyler's report is ignored where it was stated that of the total 384 commissars running the Soviet Union, more than 300 were Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Telegram_02a.jpg
I guess official Army intelligence reports must be "anti-semitic" as well. 72.73.121.75 ( talk) 23:35, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Schuyler quoted Wilton on the numbers. But this statement is Schuyler's: "It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning, guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greatest type..." That is coming from Army intelligence.
And, by the way, whether or not Robert Wilton has an "anti-Semite" label attached to him, is pretty much irrelevant... actually it is laughably circular in this case as apparently making the claim that Jews were heavily involved Bolshevism makes one automatically anti-Semitic.
Here is another source which repeats Schuyler's claims and adds more:
World Association of International Studies - Stanford.edu
http://wais.stanford.edu/Russia/russia_JewsAndCommunism%28110403%29.html
While Christian Leitz claims that only a few Soviet leaders and official were Jewish, Robert Witton,of The London Times, wrote in his book The Last Days of the Romanovs, that around 1920 no less than 90% of the Soviet regime was composed of Jews. Victor Mardsen, correspondent of The London Morning Post, went further and compiled a list of 545 Bolshevik officials. Of these, according to Mardsen, 454 were Jews. An American Senate subcomittee stated in the Congressional Eecord that by December 1919, under the presidency of the Jew Zinoniev, out of 388 members of the Bolshevik central government 371 were Jews.
More interesting yet are two reports US military intelligence officer Captain Montgomery Schuyler sent to Washington between March and June 1919. According to Schuyler: "It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning guided and controlled by Russian Jews". In addition, "More than 300 Jews are (Bolshevik) commissars. Of this number 264 had come from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial government" (Reportedly these commentaries are available at US National Archives in Washington).
I don't understand what your counter position is. Do you believe it is all a big conspiracy by Army intelligence and journalists to make people believe Bolsheviks were run by Jews?
Anyways these sources seem sufficient. (Though I doubt any amount of sources will matter to the editors of this article.) 72.73.111.191 ( talk) 01:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Yet another prominent source, David Lloyd George, British Prime Minister:
"The Germans were equally alive to the fact that the Jews of Russia wielded considerable influence in Bolshevik circles.The Zionist Movement was exceptionally strong in Russia and America. The Germans were, therefore, engaged actively in courting favour with that Movement all over the world. A friendly Russia would mean not only more food and raw material for Germany and Austria, but fewer German and Austrian troops on the Eastern front and, therefore, more available for the West. These considerations were brought to our notice by the Foreign Office, and reported to the War Cabinet. "
David Lloyd George, Memoirs of the Peace Conference, Volume II, New Haven, Yale University Press, 1939; chapter XXIII, pg.724
Is he also part of the anti-Semitic conspiracy? 72.73.111.191 ( talk) 03:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Look at your sources for "dismissal of the concept"... you have a "Polish philosopher" and a Law professor. And that is supposed to trump the aforementioned. Laughable. 72.73.111.191 ( talk) 15:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
This is a bit of a ridiculous discussion. The "sources" listed here show us that some contemporary observers, most of whom were relative outsiders towards what they were talking about, repeated antisemitic claims about Jewish Bolshevik influence. Today's historians, triangulating an array of sources, are able to give us a better account of whether this was true or not. For example, Churchill's newspaper article and Lloyd George's memoirs need to be read in the context of what sources they had access to about what was going on in Russia, the antisemitic common senes of the time, and ideas of racial nationalism that British politicians embraced in the period. This has been discussed by several historians, such as Sharman Kadish and James Renton, and it would be better to use well-researched secondary sources in this article than for us to attempt to provide an amateur synthesis WP:SYN of original research WP:OR based on unreliable internet reproductions of contemporary primary texts. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 16:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC) Oh, and although the relevant section could probably be expanded [3], CHurchill already has 3 paragraphs in the article. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I am the guy putting in the Yuri Slezkine/Hillel Halkin link from Commentary Magazine, the right-wing Jewish magazine. Yuri and Hillel are both Jewish. The statistic about Jews making up a disproportionate amount of the Bolshevik leadership is coming from them. So I really don't think it's anti-Semitic. Shaco77 ( talk) 16:49, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The article seems to center on statistical data: What percentage of Bolsheviks were Jewish? How does that compare with the proportion of Jews in the general population?
It seems to me a crucial component is missing, namely noting that the central point of the conspiracy theorists is that these were not just individuals who happened to be Jewish, they were part of an organized Jewry who were acting in a concerted manner according to a plan to advance some sort of global Jewish enterprise.
This is a kind of sleight of hand. The passage from Jewish individuals to an organized global Jewish enterprise is only implicitly (not to say subliminally) suggested, never explicitly stated, let alone proven. Yet this particular spin is the central element of those conspiracy theories.
If someone started counting baldies or redheads among Bolsheviks and then based on that put forward a theory that Bolshevism was a "baldy" or "redhead" conspiracy, one wouldn't necessarily answer such theories by just counting baldies and redheads in turn and showing that the conspiracy theorists actually overestimated the number of baldies or redheads.
One would counter them by showing that the idea of a group of people somehow acting together in a concerted manner just because they all happen to be bald or have red hair is silly to begin with, or at least requires proof.
Why is this missing here?
No sources?
Contact Basemetal here 19:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Aren't the Jewish religious concepts of tzedekah, gemilut hasadim, and tikkun olam kind of revolutionary/radical/progressive? My view is that Jewish people who became Communists did so by taking out God from their religious equation, but still continued to pursue the mitzvots of Judaism in their own way. Redheads and baldies don't have that religious background that followers of Judaism have, or in this case, former followers of Judaism have. Shaco77 ( talk) 02:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I feel like this whole page's premise has an anti-Semitic feeling to it, so I can understand the hostility to its existence. But I still think people should be made aware of Jewish participation in the Bolshevik movement, just like how Jewish Americans like Philip Weiss talk about Jewish membership in the Democratic Party. We can talk about Jewish participation in the Bolshevik movement in a respectful way, it doesn't have to automatically be a slander. Shaco77 ( talk) 02:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
File:Nazi Lithuanian poster.JPG. Some time ago I added a more detailed translation of poster's text (what was readable to me) in the image page. You may see that the poster is antisemitic and says that jews and bolsheviks acted in concert, but it does not "equate" stalinism with jews. neither it suggests that bolshevism is a jewish invention. Therefore I conclude the picture has no direct relevance to article subject. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:19, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Is it correct to write of the concept being "dismissed" by researchers 'in' the topic who denounce the concept of "Jewish Bolshevism" as a prejudice? The suggestion that they 'denounce' the concept indicates a degree of bias and prejudice. Surely there are also researchers who are undecided or find the theory proven. As a very large number of revolutionaries were jewish, it is at least arguable that the revolution would not have occurred without them. Royalcourtier ( talk) 01:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
It is not correct. I fixed it to criticism. Also, the blurb says "This paper studies the problem of Jews, communism and Jewish communists, primarily with a Jewish audience in mind.." so heavily POV. Zezen ( talk) 07:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
You are convinced me again Zero, and thank you for your civility (I noticed you've been editing since 2004, so kudos). I left the source, but added a verbatim quote about the background and the target audience, to alert the readers. Please note that already the books' blurb somehow disclaims the purport of this article ("antisemitic canard" in the lead, by now removed for better NPOV), and the publisher "Covenant" is not "perfectly scholarly" academic:
A quarterly journal, Covenant is delivered free via email to subscribers worldwide, who may read articles on screen or print them out. Contributions deal with the modern world, culture, history, politics, and religion, and include up to date reporting on situations around the world, as well as fiction from Jewish writers both known and unknown. Covenant is interested in both topical and thematic contributions, discussed in accessible and engaging ways. ... Covenant is aimed at a general but sophisticated audience, Jews seeking new ideas about the world, and answers to questions that press on us in old and new ways. source Zezen ( talk) 10:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
FYI, here is this professor's scope of Academia public publications: maths, logic and Holocaust. Zezen ( talk) 10:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
These two statements are supported by an article on Solzhenitsyn from Moskovskiy Komsomolets:
References
I could not find the article itself, but found this reference to it from Sputnik News:
[Solzhenitsyn's recent work] "Two Hundred Years Together" [...] split the readers into two irreconcilable groups. Many have described it as blatantly anti-Semitic. The high-profile journalist Mark Deitch, for one, responded with an article entitled "A Shameless Classic. Alexander Solzhenitsyn as a Mirror of Russian Xenophobia." The piece was carried by the Russian newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets. Actually, both labels seem too strong for the frail patriarch. He is neither an anti-Semite nor a Xenophobe. It's just that he does not have enough energy or knowledge to explore such a complex issue in depth. An entire research institute wouldn't be up to the task. And the role of a judge that he assumes in this book is not particularly becoming, either.
So I don't think the article (if it can be found) is qualified to support the statements being made in the article. Would anyone want to tackle this? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed Deutch as source and added citation needed for the 7.1% number. Since Trotsky being a 'narkom' is not in dispute, I left it as is. K.e.coffman ( talk) 18:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, this article appears to need a source cleanup for POV. For example, Sergey Kara-Murza, used as reference #22 for the statistics here ("On the eve of the February Revolution, in 1917, the Bolshevik party had about 23,000 members, of whom 364 were known to be ethnic Jews.[16][22]"), also authored a 2001 book Jews, Dissidents and Euro-communism: http://www.koob.ru/karamurza/evrei_dissidenti_i_evrokommunizm.
Loose translation from Russian from a paragraph attributed to Kara-Murza in the review of the book ( http://nash-sovremennik.ru/p.php?y=2002&n=10&id=15):
“Если евреи — семья, то кто в ней сегодня “старшие братья”?.. Сегодня “старшие братья” — банкиры. По общему мнению, они обобрали Россию и безжалостно довели половину народа до голода. Неприязнь к этой семье, которая, похоже, беспрекословно следует за своими новыми “старшими”, становится естественной. Для этого русским не надо даже становиться националистами, ибо евреи — не народ, а клан”.
"If Jews are a family, then who are today's "Big Brothers"? The Big Brothers are the bankers. It's common knowledge that they stripped Russia bare and ruthlessly starved half of the population. The dislike of this 'family' is natural. Russians don't even need to become nationalists, as Jews are not a people but a clique."
If Kara-Murza is to be kept in this article, his works should be moved to the Works propagating Jewish Bolshevism canard. Although he does not appear to be that influential, so perhaps it's not necessary. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 22:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
To get this back on topic, I don't believe Kara-Murza can be considered a WP:RS in the context of the article, as he appears to subscribe to the "Jewish Bolshevism" canard himself. Am I on the right track here? K.e.coffman ( talk) 18:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I revisited the statement itself and I see that it uses two sources - and the statement actually comes from the 1st source, rather than Kara-Murza. Here it the full paragraph:
Of all the Jews active in politics, a relatively small number join the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party; most of them join the Menshevik faction after the party splits. On the eve of the Revolution, the Bolshevik party has about 23,000 members, of which 364 are Jews.
So Kara-Murza is not needed there. This exhibit's authors are Joke Kniesmeyer and Daniel Cil Brecher per the About page. I'm not familiar with these two individuals, but the exhibit looks 'legit' and I've seen it referenced in books. So my revised proposal is just to remove Kara-Murza since I'm not even sure what his ref is supposed to provide. K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Image restored. directly relevant. trotsky is a well-known standard poster boy of "Jewish bolshevism" canard. see google books. - üser:Altenmann >t
And many more. - üser:Altenmann >t 22:51, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
USchick is right. A a gold five-pointed star circuit with a red background was a Communist symbol. The six-pointed yellow star of David only came into wide use under the Nazis. The subject is actually wearing a pentagram. The Trotsky article says the star represents satanism and Trotsky is portrayed as the devil.
Also, there is no indication that the subject was Trotsky and nothing in it that implies he was Jewish. There are no reliable sources that connect the painting with Jewish Bolshevism. It's like an inkblot test - different viewers may see different things.
TFD ( talk) 18:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
This is getting more interesting. The Chinese soldiers were sort of confusing to me, so I looked up "Chinese in the Red Army" and what do I find? The very same poster in the article Chinese in the Russian Revolution, with the following explanation: "The use of Chinese troops by the Bolsheviks was commented on by both White Russian and non-Russian observers.In fact, the Bolsheviks were often derided for their reliance on Chinese and Lettish volunteers. Anti-Bolshevik propaganda suggested that the Bolsheviks did not have the support of the Russian people and thus had to resort to foreign mercenaries who ran roughshod over the Russian populace."
So I'm changing my position on the inclusion of this poster in the article to "against," since it depicts a different aspect of anti-bolshevik propaganda from the Russian civil war era. K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
What about the anti-Jewish Nazi Lithuanian poster, see the discussion above? It has all: Jewish face, Star of David, hate... Zezen ( talk) 08:51, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
The other page where it is used says in the description:
1941 Nazi propaganda antisemitic " Jewish Bolshevism" poster in Lithuanian language equating Stalinism and Jews[d]. Top reads: "Jews - your eternal enemy", Bottom reads: "Stalin and Jews are the same band of scum"
Can't we? Zezen ( talk) 10:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Altenmann would you like to join this conversation or do you prefer to edit war? USchick ( talk) 20:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't mind using the poster if some sort of context can be established for it. I found sources that provide context. Does anyone have a problem with these sources? [5], [6] [7] [8]. USchick ( talk) 00:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
I removed a link from the See also, that is already linked in the lede, and two navigation boxes. Seealso says linked in the body, not lede, but it does mention navigation boxes. -- Malerooster ( talk) 05:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I removed a link from the See also, that is already linked in the lede, and two navigation boxes. Seealso says linked in the body, not lede, but it does mention navigation boxes. -- Malerooster ( talk) 05:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Should his book (Deux Siècles Ensemble. Tome 2. 1917-1972. Juifs et Russes pendant la periode Soviétique, 1917-1972) be moved from Further Reading into the section Works propagating the Jewish Bolshevism canard?
Here's a review from Sputnik News:
[Solzhenitsyn's recent work] "Two Hundred Years Together" [...] split the readers into two irreconcilable groups. Many have described it as blatantly anti-Semitic. The high-profile journalist Mark Deitch, for one, responded with an article entitled "A Shameless Classic. Alexander Solzhenitsyn as a Mirror of Russian Xenophobia." The piece was carried by the Russian newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets.
Actually, both labels seem too strong for the frail patriarch. He is neither an anti-Semite nor a Xenophobe. It's just that he does not have enough energy or knowledge to explore such a complex issue in depth. An entire research institute wouldn't be up to the task. And the role of a judge that he assumes in this book is not particularly becoming, either.
Additional sources to the same effect can probably be found. If the 'propagating the canard' is too strong, then I suggest simply removing from Further Reading. K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
PS - this book has an article: Two Hundred Years Together K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
@ 71.174.127.111: You are currently engaged in WP:edit warring; please wait until the incident is is resolved] to re-introduce your contested edits. K.e.coffman ( talk) 16:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
What about quoting a Jewish author, a scholar about anti-Semitism: Albert Lindemann?:
“ | The Red Terror—a Jewish terror?
In some areas, for example, the Ukraine, the Cheka leadership was overwhelmingly Jewish. By early 1919 Cheka organizations in Kiev were 75 percent Jewish, in a city where less than a decade earlier Jews had been officially forbidden to reside, except under special dispensation, and constituted about 1 percent of the total population. The pattern of employing non-Slavic ethnic minorities in the Cheka was duplicated in many other areas of Russia. George Leggett, the most recent and authoritative historian of the Russian secret police, speculates that the use of outsiders may have been a conscious policy, since such “detached elements could be better trusted not to sympathize with the repressed local population.” It is instructive that the high percentage of Jews in the secret police continued well in the 1930s, when the population of Jews gradually diminished in most other areas of the Soviet and party cadres. The extent to which both Cheka and Gestapo leaders prided themselves in being an elite corps, characterized by unyielding toughness—unmoved by sympathy for their often innocent victims and willing to carry out the most stomach-turning atrocities in the name of an ideal—is striking. The number of Jews involved in the terror and counterterror of this period is striking. These many Jewish terrorists helped to nurture, even when they killed Jewish Chekists, the belief that Jews, especially once they had broken from the confines of their traditional faith, turned naturally to fanaticism and anarchistic destructiveness. An even more important institution than the Cheka in defending the revolution was the Red Army, and, again, Jews played a key role in its leadership. Trotsky fascinated a broad public inside and outside Russia. In Hungary, a Jewish observer who was in fact hostile to the Bolsheviks nonetheless write: “The evolutionary flame which has burned beneath the surface of world history is now blazing up for the first time in a Jewish genius: Leo Trotsky!” According to Paul Johnson,
Trotsky’s paramount role in the revolution cannot be denied; Johnson’s views even if exaggerated, underline how powerful and durable has been the mystique around Trotsky’s name. He was second to Lenin, but a strong second. There was no Jew in modern times, at least until the creation of the state of Israel, to rival him. It has been claimed that the actual proportion of Jews in top party and state positions in the 1930s did not notably drop from the 1920s. However, “visible” Jewish leaders, comparable to Trotsky, Zinoviev, or Uritsky, diminished in numbers and would continue to do so in subsequent years, so that by the mid-twentieth century there were almost no Jews among the highest officials in the Soviet Union. To state the obvious, Jews were never purged explicitly as Jews in the Soviet Union, and millions survived the worst years of Stalin’s terror. |
” |
Sorry for the typos if any. I just typed directly from Lindemann's academic book. - Cesar Tort 10:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
"And in fact the " Wilhelmstrasse", i.e. the German Foreign Office, had looked at the possibilities of a public embrace of Zionism. [1] A recent history of the intended use of world religions in World War I, concluded that "neither Max Bodenheimer's committee of German Zionists, nor the Zionist Executive, nor any kind of organized international Jewish network had much of anything to do with either the February or October Revolution." [2]" Here's the offending passage. What exactly is MAcMeekin? and what role did Zionism have in WW1?--18:15, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6k5HzkboGvcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sean+mcmeekin&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=bodenheimer&f=false Note for example 'While Bodenheimer later came to regret compromising the cause by so closely aligning German Zionists with the war effort' (p345). 'The intended role of world religions' is an opaque and inaccurate description of the source text, two movements in particular are discussed by the source. This doesn't mean that McMeekin determines a major role for Zionism in the war, but the source addresses these movements specifically in the context of the build up to the war, not 'world religions' in general. Clivemacd ( talk) 19:01, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
Since they are refusing to open a section, which is simple, I have done so. Please discuss your edits here. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 19:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi thanks i don't want to revert this but someone does, they didn't say why and now its being deleted, what should i do know, do i make a complaint? or report them?
this is the change i made
Bolshevik Party, they held important posts in the leadership and were close associates of Lenin. [1]
thanks 91.125.132.147 ( talk) 19:51, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Hi i read that an it says "When reverting, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary and use links if needed. Look at the article's edit history and its talk page to see if a discussion has begun. If not, you may begin one (see this list for a glossary of common abbreviations you might see)." but there was nothing on talk page and no reason given thanks 91.125.132.147 ( talk) 20:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi thanks i don't want to revert this but someone does, they didn't say why and now its being deleted, what should i do know, do i make a complaint? or report them?
this is the change i made
"In April 1917, three of the nine members of the Central Committee were Jews: Kamenev, Zinovyev and Sverdlov so despite the relatively small number of Jews in the Bolshevik Party, they held important posts in the leadership and were close associates of Lenin." and then a link i copied from the screen to The Jews of the Soviet Union: The History of a National Minority- Cambridge University
I was reading The Jewish Enemy: Nazi Propaganda During World War II and the Holocaust and google sent me to this wikipedia page which had a link to it, the book The Jews of the Soviet Union: The History of a National Minority- Cambridge University is referenced by Herf and is the source for your reference " According to the 1922 Bolshevik party census, there were 19,564 Jewish Bolsheviks, comprising 5.21% of the total, and in the 1920s of the 417 members of the Central Executive Committee, the party Central Committee, the Presidium of the Executive of the Soviets of the USSR and the Russian Republic, the People's Commissars, 6% were ethnic Jew"
i thought it was interesting and so edidted the article, mainly copy and pasting. Then it got deleted and nobody said why and i couldn't understand if i was meant to argue against myself? or seomthing thanks 91.125.132.147 ( talk) 19:58, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
The article as it now stands doesn't really directly bring together the two explanatory facts that under the Tsarist regime, the Jews were both highly oppressed and highly educated, which fairly naturally led to the result that they were significantly represented in most opposition groups that had any kind of somewhat congenial ideology...
Also, for a number of decades (certainly as late as the 1960s, perhaps beyond), if there was any distinctively Saudi approach to Israel and the Arab-Israeli conflict, it was that pretty much all Zionists or Zionist leaders were Communists who wanted to "Bolshevize" the middle east... AnonMoos ( talk) 06:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Based on the closed discussion above, I believe there is a clear consensus that the subject of this article is:
"1.the theory that Bolshevism was the product of a supposed international Jewish conspiracy to run the world,"
Does anyone have a basis for disagreement that such is the consensus, based on the discussion? John2510 ( talk) 15:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
How is the demonic depiction of Trotsky at the head of this page relevant to the article? As far as I can see, there is no mention of Jews in the poster. Zero talk 06:03, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
How about [1] ? -- Soman ( talk) 05:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
To get back on subject, I oppose the removal of the image and would like to see the article returned to the status quo ante in this regard. -- Director ( talk) 10:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Please stop removing the edit. The source is Time Magazine. Lenin was partly Jewish. Also the Wikipedia article on Lenin states -- "Lenin's father, Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov, had come from a serf background but had studied physics and maths at Kazan State University before teaching at the Penza Institute for the Nobility.[2] Introduced to Maria Alexandrovna Blank, they married in the summer of 1863.[3] From a relatively prosperous background, Maria was the daughter of a Russian Jewish physician."
So to say that he was not Jewish in this article is a lie. He did have Jewish ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.232.41 ( talk) 00:10, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm confused about what this means stated throughout this page regarding % of jews in army at different times: Judaism is not an ethnicity - it's a religion, so why different categories? and how do we know accuracy...did russian soldiers who were jewish check a box that said "jew" or "russian"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.191.108 ( talk) 03:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions Should clear things up-- 198.151.130.239 ( talk) 00:19, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
See Jews and Communism, seemingly a WP:FORK of what has been discussed at length here. -- Soman ( talk) 00:08, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
There's an issue over the sentence: According to
Hannah Arendt, herself the daughter of Jews and the wife of a Marxist, it was "the most efficient fiction of Nazi Propaganda"
specifically the issue of how germane the fact that Arendt was the daughter of Jews and the spouse of a Marxist. It would seem to me that this article is about this confluence of ethnic Jews and Marxism and Arendt is another example of this phenomena. I'm not sure if the concern is that including the "daughter of... wife of..." phrase seemingly detracts from her quote or if some editors think this inclusion smacks of pro-Nazi antisemitism. I think it should be included.
Chris Troutman (
talk) 00:12, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
68.34.91.226 ( talk · contribs) The neutrality of this article has been discussed before. You're welcome to discuss it again, although I recommend you bring reliable sources with you. Otherwise, discontinue using the edit summary to justify tagging the page without defending your charge here. Also, please show me these "standards" you claim we have here at Wikipedia and which ones you think we're violating. Chris Troutman ( talk) 21:21, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
The only way to cure the inaccuracies in this article would be to remove it completely, and start from scratch. Literally every paragraph is poisoned with bias. Isn't Wikipedia supposed to be edited by people? This reads like an AIPAC member's wet dream from start to finish. Complete revisionist garbage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.63.45 ( talk) 02:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jews_and_Communism_(2nd_nomination). Thanks. MarkBernstein ( talk) 21:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
To editor Altenmann: One cannot replace a sourced paragraph with a single unsourced sentence under the claim of "summarizing." Chris Troutman ( talk) 05:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I would like to add: Though Lenin had Jewish roots. [2] The article as it exists contains a factual error. When I correct the article someone keeps erasing my correction. Why does someone want to preserve this error?! Jimjilin ( talk) 11:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Now someone thinks mentioning the Jewish roots of the most important Bolshevik leader does not belong in an article about Jewish Bolshevism! Jimjilin ( talk) 02:54, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
The settings on this page governing the activities of the archival bot previously read:
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I have changed them to:
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Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 7.4 KB I have set the time setting to a relatively moderate 30 days but a higher value might be considered. Gregkaye ( talk) 13:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Jewish Bolshevism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would request that the line "Scholars dismiss this theory" either be cited or deleted. I'm not arguing that Jewish Bolshevism is not an antisemitic canard, I am arguing that such an authoritative statement demands citation. 71.74.155.212 ( talk) 06:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
There were acutally 964 Jews. See here: http://books.google.de/books?id=dLdhSUZI-AYC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=964+jews+communist+party&source=bl&ots=xY3_70voRk&sig=M_Zwa-PQ7Ecv2HWN6kyc7pd7gXI&hl=de&sa=X&ei=45WAVKK5DIXEPfPDgaAF&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=964%20jews%20communist%20party&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.183.206.146 ( talk) 17:16, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
This whole article could be called one big euphemism, but it is more than that. It is a play with words, nuances and selected details and facts, that misleads the reader. The one-sided presentation is on the verge of sophistry! As person with relevant knowledge and background, especially that of an academic I find this yellow journalism offensive, even more so when it is presented in Wikipedia which goes under the banner of good encyclopedic standards. This article must been cleaned up! RudiLefkowitz ( talk) 07:09, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
A lot of info, but one-sided, if not slanted, because there are good reasons for taking the alliance of Jews with anti-aristocratic movements seriously. They were part of the "democracy" and remain so to this day. While it can be, and has been, argued that they took up money-lending, etc because they were outcasts, they had long been a commercial people, and still largely are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.26.8 ( talk) 19:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
The two links to scholars listed after the sentence "Scholars dismiss this theory".[3] [4]. Both link to Jewish owned sites and a Jewish writer. Are there no impartial "scholars"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.31.231 ( talk) 05:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The sentences "Researchers in the topic, such as Polish philosopher Stanisław Krajewski "[3] or André Gerrits, [4] denounce the concept of "Jewish Bolshevism" as a prejudice. Law professor Ilya Somin agrees, and compares Jewish involvement in other communist countries." Lists three Jewish researchers, are their no impartial? Maybe remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.31.231 ( talk) 06:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
This article downplays the evidence of Jewish involvement in Communism. It shows statistics of mass-party membership and the rubber stamp Congress of Soviets to claim Jews were not overrepresented, but the charge has always been that people of Jewish or partial Jewish descent were the leaders of the Bolsheviks. The first Soviet politburo for example contained four Jews or part-Jews (Lenin, Trotsky, Kamenev, Krestinsky) and one gentile (Stalin). Considering that Jews were only 4% of the Russian Empire's population the chances of 80% of the politburo having a Jewish background by chance alone is nil.
Also, Jewish involvement in other countries Communist Parties is ignored, for example 33% of Communist Party USA Central Committee members were Jewish. Jews were also the primary victims of the McCarthy era. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.186.73.113 ( talk) 16:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree. Even lenins Jewish Family seems to be forgotten even though he is mentioned in this regard in other places. /info/en/?search=Category:Russian_people_of_Jewish_descent Eisenstein as well /info/en/?search=Category:Russian_people_of_German-Jewish_descent
Another point would be that the German Revolution deserves sepparate mention, without jumping straight to nazi germany. It is a cheap oversimplification in order to prove the established conclusion, that it is simply a cheap invention.
Many of the leaders of the german revolutionaries
/info/en/?search=German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319 , including all the most prominent leaders, Luxemburg, Radek, Zetkin, Levin, Levi, and Liebknecht, were of Jewish decent.
The Revolution in germany, and the political constilations of the weimar republic deserve mention, it will demonstrate a large amout of jews, that were later harrassed and arrested by the nazis, also in part lending validity to nazi claims,. You might not like that, but noting is born out of a vacume.
77.87.48.144 (
talk) 21:49, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.87.48.144 ( talk) 21:13, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Winston Churchill said openly that the Russian revolution was lead by international jews.
The American intelligence officer in Russia at the time, Captain Schuyler, wrote of it official reports: "It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning, guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greatest type..." Link to actual image of the report: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Telegram_02a.jpg
"The Bolshevik leaders here, most of whom are Jews and 90 percent of whom are returned exiles, care little for Russia or any other country but are internationalists and they are trying to start a worldwide social revolution" - David Francis, American Ambassador to Russia at the time of the Revolution - U.S. National Archives
There are numerous other official and mainstream sources from this time period attesting to the Jews' lead role in the Bolshevik Revolution.
It's hard to see how the matter is even controversial with so much historical evidence. 72.73.109.108 ( talk) 14:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Of course Schuyler's report is ignored where it was stated that of the total 384 commissars running the Soviet Union, more than 300 were Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Telegram_02a.jpg
I guess official Army intelligence reports must be "anti-semitic" as well. 72.73.121.75 ( talk) 23:35, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Schuyler quoted Wilton on the numbers. But this statement is Schuyler's: "It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning, guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greatest type..." That is coming from Army intelligence.
And, by the way, whether or not Robert Wilton has an "anti-Semite" label attached to him, is pretty much irrelevant... actually it is laughably circular in this case as apparently making the claim that Jews were heavily involved Bolshevism makes one automatically anti-Semitic.
Here is another source which repeats Schuyler's claims and adds more:
World Association of International Studies - Stanford.edu
http://wais.stanford.edu/Russia/russia_JewsAndCommunism%28110403%29.html
While Christian Leitz claims that only a few Soviet leaders and official were Jewish, Robert Witton,of The London Times, wrote in his book The Last Days of the Romanovs, that around 1920 no less than 90% of the Soviet regime was composed of Jews. Victor Mardsen, correspondent of The London Morning Post, went further and compiled a list of 545 Bolshevik officials. Of these, according to Mardsen, 454 were Jews. An American Senate subcomittee stated in the Congressional Eecord that by December 1919, under the presidency of the Jew Zinoniev, out of 388 members of the Bolshevik central government 371 were Jews.
More interesting yet are two reports US military intelligence officer Captain Montgomery Schuyler sent to Washington between March and June 1919. According to Schuyler: "It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning guided and controlled by Russian Jews". In addition, "More than 300 Jews are (Bolshevik) commissars. Of this number 264 had come from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial government" (Reportedly these commentaries are available at US National Archives in Washington).
I don't understand what your counter position is. Do you believe it is all a big conspiracy by Army intelligence and journalists to make people believe Bolsheviks were run by Jews?
Anyways these sources seem sufficient. (Though I doubt any amount of sources will matter to the editors of this article.) 72.73.111.191 ( talk) 01:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Yet another prominent source, David Lloyd George, British Prime Minister:
"The Germans were equally alive to the fact that the Jews of Russia wielded considerable influence in Bolshevik circles.The Zionist Movement was exceptionally strong in Russia and America. The Germans were, therefore, engaged actively in courting favour with that Movement all over the world. A friendly Russia would mean not only more food and raw material for Germany and Austria, but fewer German and Austrian troops on the Eastern front and, therefore, more available for the West. These considerations were brought to our notice by the Foreign Office, and reported to the War Cabinet. "
David Lloyd George, Memoirs of the Peace Conference, Volume II, New Haven, Yale University Press, 1939; chapter XXIII, pg.724
Is he also part of the anti-Semitic conspiracy? 72.73.111.191 ( talk) 03:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Look at your sources for "dismissal of the concept"... you have a "Polish philosopher" and a Law professor. And that is supposed to trump the aforementioned. Laughable. 72.73.111.191 ( talk) 15:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
This is a bit of a ridiculous discussion. The "sources" listed here show us that some contemporary observers, most of whom were relative outsiders towards what they were talking about, repeated antisemitic claims about Jewish Bolshevik influence. Today's historians, triangulating an array of sources, are able to give us a better account of whether this was true or not. For example, Churchill's newspaper article and Lloyd George's memoirs need to be read in the context of what sources they had access to about what was going on in Russia, the antisemitic common senes of the time, and ideas of racial nationalism that British politicians embraced in the period. This has been discussed by several historians, such as Sharman Kadish and James Renton, and it would be better to use well-researched secondary sources in this article than for us to attempt to provide an amateur synthesis WP:SYN of original research WP:OR based on unreliable internet reproductions of contemporary primary texts. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 16:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC) Oh, and although the relevant section could probably be expanded [3], CHurchill already has 3 paragraphs in the article. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I am the guy putting in the Yuri Slezkine/Hillel Halkin link from Commentary Magazine, the right-wing Jewish magazine. Yuri and Hillel are both Jewish. The statistic about Jews making up a disproportionate amount of the Bolshevik leadership is coming from them. So I really don't think it's anti-Semitic. Shaco77 ( talk) 16:49, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The article seems to center on statistical data: What percentage of Bolsheviks were Jewish? How does that compare with the proportion of Jews in the general population?
It seems to me a crucial component is missing, namely noting that the central point of the conspiracy theorists is that these were not just individuals who happened to be Jewish, they were part of an organized Jewry who were acting in a concerted manner according to a plan to advance some sort of global Jewish enterprise.
This is a kind of sleight of hand. The passage from Jewish individuals to an organized global Jewish enterprise is only implicitly (not to say subliminally) suggested, never explicitly stated, let alone proven. Yet this particular spin is the central element of those conspiracy theories.
If someone started counting baldies or redheads among Bolsheviks and then based on that put forward a theory that Bolshevism was a "baldy" or "redhead" conspiracy, one wouldn't necessarily answer such theories by just counting baldies and redheads in turn and showing that the conspiracy theorists actually overestimated the number of baldies or redheads.
One would counter them by showing that the idea of a group of people somehow acting together in a concerted manner just because they all happen to be bald or have red hair is silly to begin with, or at least requires proof.
Why is this missing here?
No sources?
Contact Basemetal here 19:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Aren't the Jewish religious concepts of tzedekah, gemilut hasadim, and tikkun olam kind of revolutionary/radical/progressive? My view is that Jewish people who became Communists did so by taking out God from their religious equation, but still continued to pursue the mitzvots of Judaism in their own way. Redheads and baldies don't have that religious background that followers of Judaism have, or in this case, former followers of Judaism have. Shaco77 ( talk) 02:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I feel like this whole page's premise has an anti-Semitic feeling to it, so I can understand the hostility to its existence. But I still think people should be made aware of Jewish participation in the Bolshevik movement, just like how Jewish Americans like Philip Weiss talk about Jewish membership in the Democratic Party. We can talk about Jewish participation in the Bolshevik movement in a respectful way, it doesn't have to automatically be a slander. Shaco77 ( talk) 02:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
File:Nazi Lithuanian poster.JPG. Some time ago I added a more detailed translation of poster's text (what was readable to me) in the image page. You may see that the poster is antisemitic and says that jews and bolsheviks acted in concert, but it does not "equate" stalinism with jews. neither it suggests that bolshevism is a jewish invention. Therefore I conclude the picture has no direct relevance to article subject. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:19, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Is it correct to write of the concept being "dismissed" by researchers 'in' the topic who denounce the concept of "Jewish Bolshevism" as a prejudice? The suggestion that they 'denounce' the concept indicates a degree of bias and prejudice. Surely there are also researchers who are undecided or find the theory proven. As a very large number of revolutionaries were jewish, it is at least arguable that the revolution would not have occurred without them. Royalcourtier ( talk) 01:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
It is not correct. I fixed it to criticism. Also, the blurb says "This paper studies the problem of Jews, communism and Jewish communists, primarily with a Jewish audience in mind.." so heavily POV. Zezen ( talk) 07:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
You are convinced me again Zero, and thank you for your civility (I noticed you've been editing since 2004, so kudos). I left the source, but added a verbatim quote about the background and the target audience, to alert the readers. Please note that already the books' blurb somehow disclaims the purport of this article ("antisemitic canard" in the lead, by now removed for better NPOV), and the publisher "Covenant" is not "perfectly scholarly" academic:
A quarterly journal, Covenant is delivered free via email to subscribers worldwide, who may read articles on screen or print them out. Contributions deal with the modern world, culture, history, politics, and religion, and include up to date reporting on situations around the world, as well as fiction from Jewish writers both known and unknown. Covenant is interested in both topical and thematic contributions, discussed in accessible and engaging ways. ... Covenant is aimed at a general but sophisticated audience, Jews seeking new ideas about the world, and answers to questions that press on us in old and new ways. source Zezen ( talk) 10:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
FYI, here is this professor's scope of Academia public publications: maths, logic and Holocaust. Zezen ( talk) 10:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
These two statements are supported by an article on Solzhenitsyn from Moskovskiy Komsomolets:
References
I could not find the article itself, but found this reference to it from Sputnik News:
[Solzhenitsyn's recent work] "Two Hundred Years Together" [...] split the readers into two irreconcilable groups. Many have described it as blatantly anti-Semitic. The high-profile journalist Mark Deitch, for one, responded with an article entitled "A Shameless Classic. Alexander Solzhenitsyn as a Mirror of Russian Xenophobia." The piece was carried by the Russian newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets. Actually, both labels seem too strong for the frail patriarch. He is neither an anti-Semite nor a Xenophobe. It's just that he does not have enough energy or knowledge to explore such a complex issue in depth. An entire research institute wouldn't be up to the task. And the role of a judge that he assumes in this book is not particularly becoming, either.
So I don't think the article (if it can be found) is qualified to support the statements being made in the article. Would anyone want to tackle this? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed Deutch as source and added citation needed for the 7.1% number. Since Trotsky being a 'narkom' is not in dispute, I left it as is. K.e.coffman ( talk) 18:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, this article appears to need a source cleanup for POV. For example, Sergey Kara-Murza, used as reference #22 for the statistics here ("On the eve of the February Revolution, in 1917, the Bolshevik party had about 23,000 members, of whom 364 were known to be ethnic Jews.[16][22]"), also authored a 2001 book Jews, Dissidents and Euro-communism: http://www.koob.ru/karamurza/evrei_dissidenti_i_evrokommunizm.
Loose translation from Russian from a paragraph attributed to Kara-Murza in the review of the book ( http://nash-sovremennik.ru/p.php?y=2002&n=10&id=15):
“Если евреи — семья, то кто в ней сегодня “старшие братья”?.. Сегодня “старшие братья” — банкиры. По общему мнению, они обобрали Россию и безжалостно довели половину народа до голода. Неприязнь к этой семье, которая, похоже, беспрекословно следует за своими новыми “старшими”, становится естественной. Для этого русским не надо даже становиться националистами, ибо евреи — не народ, а клан”.
"If Jews are a family, then who are today's "Big Brothers"? The Big Brothers are the bankers. It's common knowledge that they stripped Russia bare and ruthlessly starved half of the population. The dislike of this 'family' is natural. Russians don't even need to become nationalists, as Jews are not a people but a clique."
If Kara-Murza is to be kept in this article, his works should be moved to the Works propagating Jewish Bolshevism canard. Although he does not appear to be that influential, so perhaps it's not necessary. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 22:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
To get this back on topic, I don't believe Kara-Murza can be considered a WP:RS in the context of the article, as he appears to subscribe to the "Jewish Bolshevism" canard himself. Am I on the right track here? K.e.coffman ( talk) 18:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I revisited the statement itself and I see that it uses two sources - and the statement actually comes from the 1st source, rather than Kara-Murza. Here it the full paragraph:
Of all the Jews active in politics, a relatively small number join the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party; most of them join the Menshevik faction after the party splits. On the eve of the Revolution, the Bolshevik party has about 23,000 members, of which 364 are Jews.
So Kara-Murza is not needed there. This exhibit's authors are Joke Kniesmeyer and Daniel Cil Brecher per the About page. I'm not familiar with these two individuals, but the exhibit looks 'legit' and I've seen it referenced in books. So my revised proposal is just to remove Kara-Murza since I'm not even sure what his ref is supposed to provide. K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Image restored. directly relevant. trotsky is a well-known standard poster boy of "Jewish bolshevism" canard. see google books. - üser:Altenmann >t
And many more. - üser:Altenmann >t 22:51, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
USchick is right. A a gold five-pointed star circuit with a red background was a Communist symbol. The six-pointed yellow star of David only came into wide use under the Nazis. The subject is actually wearing a pentagram. The Trotsky article says the star represents satanism and Trotsky is portrayed as the devil.
Also, there is no indication that the subject was Trotsky and nothing in it that implies he was Jewish. There are no reliable sources that connect the painting with Jewish Bolshevism. It's like an inkblot test - different viewers may see different things.
TFD ( talk) 18:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
This is getting more interesting. The Chinese soldiers were sort of confusing to me, so I looked up "Chinese in the Red Army" and what do I find? The very same poster in the article Chinese in the Russian Revolution, with the following explanation: "The use of Chinese troops by the Bolsheviks was commented on by both White Russian and non-Russian observers.In fact, the Bolsheviks were often derided for their reliance on Chinese and Lettish volunteers. Anti-Bolshevik propaganda suggested that the Bolsheviks did not have the support of the Russian people and thus had to resort to foreign mercenaries who ran roughshod over the Russian populace."
So I'm changing my position on the inclusion of this poster in the article to "against," since it depicts a different aspect of anti-bolshevik propaganda from the Russian civil war era. K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
What about the anti-Jewish Nazi Lithuanian poster, see the discussion above? It has all: Jewish face, Star of David, hate... Zezen ( talk) 08:51, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
The other page where it is used says in the description:
1941 Nazi propaganda antisemitic " Jewish Bolshevism" poster in Lithuanian language equating Stalinism and Jews[d]. Top reads: "Jews - your eternal enemy", Bottom reads: "Stalin and Jews are the same band of scum"
Can't we? Zezen ( talk) 10:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Altenmann would you like to join this conversation or do you prefer to edit war? USchick ( talk) 20:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't mind using the poster if some sort of context can be established for it. I found sources that provide context. Does anyone have a problem with these sources? [5], [6] [7] [8]. USchick ( talk) 00:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
I removed a link from the See also, that is already linked in the lede, and two navigation boxes. Seealso says linked in the body, not lede, but it does mention navigation boxes. -- Malerooster ( talk) 05:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I removed a link from the See also, that is already linked in the lede, and two navigation boxes. Seealso says linked in the body, not lede, but it does mention navigation boxes. -- Malerooster ( talk) 05:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Should his book (Deux Siècles Ensemble. Tome 2. 1917-1972. Juifs et Russes pendant la periode Soviétique, 1917-1972) be moved from Further Reading into the section Works propagating the Jewish Bolshevism canard?
Here's a review from Sputnik News:
[Solzhenitsyn's recent work] "Two Hundred Years Together" [...] split the readers into two irreconcilable groups. Many have described it as blatantly anti-Semitic. The high-profile journalist Mark Deitch, for one, responded with an article entitled "A Shameless Classic. Alexander Solzhenitsyn as a Mirror of Russian Xenophobia." The piece was carried by the Russian newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets.
Actually, both labels seem too strong for the frail patriarch. He is neither an anti-Semite nor a Xenophobe. It's just that he does not have enough energy or knowledge to explore such a complex issue in depth. An entire research institute wouldn't be up to the task. And the role of a judge that he assumes in this book is not particularly becoming, either.
Additional sources to the same effect can probably be found. If the 'propagating the canard' is too strong, then I suggest simply removing from Further Reading. K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
PS - this book has an article: Two Hundred Years Together K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
@ 71.174.127.111: You are currently engaged in WP:edit warring; please wait until the incident is is resolved] to re-introduce your contested edits. K.e.coffman ( talk) 16:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
What about quoting a Jewish author, a scholar about anti-Semitism: Albert Lindemann?:
“ | The Red Terror—a Jewish terror?
In some areas, for example, the Ukraine, the Cheka leadership was overwhelmingly Jewish. By early 1919 Cheka organizations in Kiev were 75 percent Jewish, in a city where less than a decade earlier Jews had been officially forbidden to reside, except under special dispensation, and constituted about 1 percent of the total population. The pattern of employing non-Slavic ethnic minorities in the Cheka was duplicated in many other areas of Russia. George Leggett, the most recent and authoritative historian of the Russian secret police, speculates that the use of outsiders may have been a conscious policy, since such “detached elements could be better trusted not to sympathize with the repressed local population.” It is instructive that the high percentage of Jews in the secret police continued well in the 1930s, when the population of Jews gradually diminished in most other areas of the Soviet and party cadres. The extent to which both Cheka and Gestapo leaders prided themselves in being an elite corps, characterized by unyielding toughness—unmoved by sympathy for their often innocent victims and willing to carry out the most stomach-turning atrocities in the name of an ideal—is striking. The number of Jews involved in the terror and counterterror of this period is striking. These many Jewish terrorists helped to nurture, even when they killed Jewish Chekists, the belief that Jews, especially once they had broken from the confines of their traditional faith, turned naturally to fanaticism and anarchistic destructiveness. An even more important institution than the Cheka in defending the revolution was the Red Army, and, again, Jews played a key role in its leadership. Trotsky fascinated a broad public inside and outside Russia. In Hungary, a Jewish observer who was in fact hostile to the Bolsheviks nonetheless write: “The evolutionary flame which has burned beneath the surface of world history is now blazing up for the first time in a Jewish genius: Leo Trotsky!” According to Paul Johnson,
Trotsky’s paramount role in the revolution cannot be denied; Johnson’s views even if exaggerated, underline how powerful and durable has been the mystique around Trotsky’s name. He was second to Lenin, but a strong second. There was no Jew in modern times, at least until the creation of the state of Israel, to rival him. It has been claimed that the actual proportion of Jews in top party and state positions in the 1930s did not notably drop from the 1920s. However, “visible” Jewish leaders, comparable to Trotsky, Zinoviev, or Uritsky, diminished in numbers and would continue to do so in subsequent years, so that by the mid-twentieth century there were almost no Jews among the highest officials in the Soviet Union. To state the obvious, Jews were never purged explicitly as Jews in the Soviet Union, and millions survived the worst years of Stalin’s terror. |
” |
Sorry for the typos if any. I just typed directly from Lindemann's academic book. - Cesar Tort 10:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
"And in fact the " Wilhelmstrasse", i.e. the German Foreign Office, had looked at the possibilities of a public embrace of Zionism. [1] A recent history of the intended use of world religions in World War I, concluded that "neither Max Bodenheimer's committee of German Zionists, nor the Zionist Executive, nor any kind of organized international Jewish network had much of anything to do with either the February or October Revolution." [2]" Here's the offending passage. What exactly is MAcMeekin? and what role did Zionism have in WW1?--18:15, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6k5HzkboGvcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sean+mcmeekin&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=bodenheimer&f=false Note for example 'While Bodenheimer later came to regret compromising the cause by so closely aligning German Zionists with the war effort' (p345). 'The intended role of world religions' is an opaque and inaccurate description of the source text, two movements in particular are discussed by the source. This doesn't mean that McMeekin determines a major role for Zionism in the war, but the source addresses these movements specifically in the context of the build up to the war, not 'world religions' in general. Clivemacd ( talk) 19:01, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
Since they are refusing to open a section, which is simple, I have done so. Please discuss your edits here. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 19:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi thanks i don't want to revert this but someone does, they didn't say why and now its being deleted, what should i do know, do i make a complaint? or report them?
this is the change i made
Bolshevik Party, they held important posts in the leadership and were close associates of Lenin. [1]
thanks 91.125.132.147 ( talk) 19:51, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Hi i read that an it says "When reverting, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary and use links if needed. Look at the article's edit history and its talk page to see if a discussion has begun. If not, you may begin one (see this list for a glossary of common abbreviations you might see)." but there was nothing on talk page and no reason given thanks 91.125.132.147 ( talk) 20:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi thanks i don't want to revert this but someone does, they didn't say why and now its being deleted, what should i do know, do i make a complaint? or report them?
this is the change i made
"In April 1917, three of the nine members of the Central Committee were Jews: Kamenev, Zinovyev and Sverdlov so despite the relatively small number of Jews in the Bolshevik Party, they held important posts in the leadership and were close associates of Lenin." and then a link i copied from the screen to The Jews of the Soviet Union: The History of a National Minority- Cambridge University
I was reading The Jewish Enemy: Nazi Propaganda During World War II and the Holocaust and google sent me to this wikipedia page which had a link to it, the book The Jews of the Soviet Union: The History of a National Minority- Cambridge University is referenced by Herf and is the source for your reference " According to the 1922 Bolshevik party census, there were 19,564 Jewish Bolsheviks, comprising 5.21% of the total, and in the 1920s of the 417 members of the Central Executive Committee, the party Central Committee, the Presidium of the Executive of the Soviets of the USSR and the Russian Republic, the People's Commissars, 6% were ethnic Jew"
i thought it was interesting and so edidted the article, mainly copy and pasting. Then it got deleted and nobody said why and i couldn't understand if i was meant to argue against myself? or seomthing thanks 91.125.132.147 ( talk) 19:58, 3 February 2017 (UTC)