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I have recently been replacing the word holocaust with "alleged holocaust", which seems to have resulted in this page being protected from further editing. For the sake of the other wikipedians I will refrain from making anymore changes now to this page even if the protection is lifted.
I believe there is still far too much uncertainty over the holocaust as it's being presented. The Institute for Historical Review has presented plenty of information that debunks the holocaust theory. Please see [ [1] Institute of Historical Review website].
In my opinion there is not enough evidence to prove it one way or the other. That being the case, it should not be refered to without some question. NSM88 10:55, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There have been some major recent anonymous additions and changes. They offhand don't look all good or all bad. I'd be a lot more comfortable if some known reasonably expert individual would look through these, revert (or bring to talk) anything they think is wrong, and endorse the rest. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:19, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Goodoldpolonius added this usage note to the page:
However, the Usage Note at Jew of The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition, 2000, says something different:
I think the note by Goodoldpolonius2 strays, in fact, into this territory, of implying that any use of the word "Jew" is offensive, and that therefore people should use circumlocutions like "Jewish person", which is in itself offensive. Jayjg (talk) 03:06, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In my (non-Jewish) experience, it still seems to me that "Jewish" is preferred to "Jew" where no circumlocutions are necessary. Observe, for instance, the common question, "Are you Jewish?", never "Are you a Jew?", which I think might very well be considered offensive. "Are you a Jewish person?" would be odd usage indeed. NTK 14:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with NTK. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to be offended by a phrase like "jew politics," then it's hypocritical to be offended by circumlocutions that imply you would be offended by the word "jew." Anyway, people are typically more offended by "jew" then circumlocutions. So in my everday speach, I always avoid the word "jew." I also avoid the world "black." I would prefer "people of jewish descent" and "people of color/african descent," to "jew" or "black." So far no one has gotten offended by the almost fanatical political correctness all American's must hold to. Except of course the people that are forced do use it, but we're talking about offending those the circumlocutions refer to of course. And that would be people of jewish or african descent, since political correctness doesn't seem to apply to us "yellows." (anon, 9 Apr 05)
Hasdrubal, why not discuss changes here first? Jayjg (talk) 23:37, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and if you're offended by unsourced claims, you shouldn't make your own (regarding many converts to Reform Judaism, for example). Jayjg (talk) 23:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the bulk of Hasdrubal's changes. I suggest that we discuss them one by one. In particular, I notice that there in no longer anything in the article to indicate that Jewish ethnic identity is traditional based on matrilineal descent, which seems to me like a stunning omission. -- 03:40, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
refer either to the adherents of a religion or to members of an ethnic group does not run counter to anything in any branch of Judaism, and, in fact, coincides with the traditional distinction between an Israelite and a Jew; (2) the statement that a Jew is a child of a Jewish mother is an incomplete description of the traditional Rabbinic criterion, as it omits converts as well as, so to speak, the base case for recursion (namely, that the first Jews were those who accepted the covenant at Sinai). Hasdrubal 01:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The claim about the supposed descent of Sephardim from followers of the Palestinian Talmud is completely new to me, and very surprising. For one thing, halakha follows the Bavli in Sephardic communities. Could whoever made that claim please give some sources. Otherwise, I feel the claim ought to be deleted. Hasdrubal 23:58, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Who is going to do something about the sentence "Many empires and rulers have sought to "liquidate" the Jews through wars of destruction, extinction, genocide, expulsions, exiles, and torture."? It sounds really stupid. You can't "liquidate" a people by torture. "Extinction" is a symptom, not an action. And only the Holocaust matches "sought to liquidate the Jews" amongst the events listed afterwards. -- Zero 23:47, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Does Michael Howard really deserve a mention? Not exactly a household word outside of the UK. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:49, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
The newly added claim of 25,000 Jews in Iran should have a citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:17, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
The last sentence (Conversely, when used as a noun (e.g. "He is a Jew"), circumlocutions like "Jewish person" can be seen as offensive, and "Jew" is preferred.)is confusing because the example given does not require circumlocution -- "He is Jewish" is neither wordy or akward. (anon 14 March 2005)
I fail to understand the argument either way for italics or not with the usage note. Personally, I only find the use of "Jew" as an adjective to be offensive if used by someone who is using it in a way that's openly hostile toward Jews. But, that's me. The sniping about putting this paragraph in parentheses as "shrill" however, is equally offensive. To put it in non-italic face would be grand in the wiktionary, but since the definition of a word rarely includes delimiting what the word does not mean, nor notes on its use as other parts of speech, this is an important point that (a) given the frequency with which this article is viewed on a daily basis, should appear early on in the article, unfortunately it probably (b) should be the final part of the opening of the article and (c) should be noticibly set apart from the definition itself, e.g., by italicizing it.
Tomer
TALK 03:20, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I read this article and I still have a question about the term. Now, as I always understood it, "Jew" can be used to describe someone who is part of the Jewish ethnic group, or a follower of the Jewish faith (or both). Now, I understand that the according to whatever religious writings there are, matrilineal descent is required for you to be a Jew. However, that seems to me to be a religious "rule" about Jewish descent. Ethnically and genetically speaking, wouldn't a person who had a Jewish father but a Jewish mother be "half Jewish" since part of his "blood" comes from Jewish ethnicity? Or does the father's ethnicity get disreguarded in that case? Is it term "Jew" mean what it means because originally the religion was so intertwined with the culture and identity that it's not really considered an ethnicity per se, but a religious based ethnicity?
I was thinking about the question because I know someone who has a Jewish father and a Russian mother. Does that make that person 100% Russian?
Incidentally - I may have made this point before and not have got a reply - it seems to me that descent rules belong entirely in the Who is a Jew? section, rather than in the first sentence of this article. First of all, What is a Jew? and Who is a Jew? are two different questions; in the first sentence, it seems, we are trying to answer the first one. The answers given sometimes overlap because they have to (a follower of the Jewish faith may also be a member of the Jewish ethnicity, and generally is) but, in the case of this issue, they overlap because they address different issues: a child of a Jewish mother is, for the Orthodox and the Conservative, automatically a member of the Jewish people (or "ethnicity"). Note that a simple sentence stating that "Jew" refers either to a follower of the Jewish faith or a member of the Jewish ethnicity (or "a member of the Jewish people", or, as in the current version, "someone of Jewish descent with a connection to Jewish culture or ethnicity") would fit in neatly, not just with the current usage of the term, but also with a dichotomy drawn traditionally (between an Israelite and a Jew proper: an apostate is still an Israelite, but no longer a Jew).
Note also that if we are including descent criteria in the definition (as opposed to a separate article and/or a separate section), we should probably include all descent criteria of all subgroups of importance in history (including not only today's Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, but also Karaites, Hellenistic Jews, ancient Israelites,...). That would get a little long, at that place.
Lastly, the phrase included in the definition is not even an accurate and full representation of the Orthodox position. By halakha, as we all know, somebody is a Jew either if his/her mother is Jewish *or* if he/she underwent a halakhic conversion; we would have to include the full criterion - especially given that a backsliding convert, though no longer a follower of the Jewish faith, is still, according to halakha, an Israelite, or member of the Jewish people. Note, moreover, that this is a *criterion* for membership, not a definition of what the person in question is or is not a member of: this is what makes it different from, let us say, a criterion for being or not being an Antartican or an alien entity. Even if we wanted a purely formal definition, the given criterion (as stated above or in the current text) would by itself be insufficient, and indeed meaningless as a definition: we would have induction (or recursion) without a base case. The full answer of "Who is a Jew?" according to halakha is as follows: a Jew is someone who stood at Sinai, or a matrilineal descendant thereof, or a convert to halakhic Judaism. If there is no reference to Sinai, there is no formal definition.
In conclusion: it seems to me to be best to have the definition say simply that "Jew" is a label sometimes used to refer to followers of a religion, or (with a large overlap) to members of a people/members of an ethnic group/participants in a culture/what have you. I think the current first sentence would do nicely, if the phrase on descent were moved to a point later in the article (or left entirely to "Who is a Jew?", though on that I have no preference) and if, perhaps, "people" were added to ethnicity or culture, so as to match more closely with the traditional dichotomy drawn above.
As I have learned (and should have guessed), this is a controversial topic here, so I won't make any changes to the first sentence myself now (or on the matter). What is your opinion? Hasdrubal 23:38, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me like we have an awful lot of links to the Holocaust in this article. I count five. I can see an argument for there being more than one, but this seems excessive. Other opinions solicited. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:02, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
I have recently been replacing the word holocaust with "alleged holocaust", which seems to have resulted in this page being protected from further editing. For the sake of the other wikipedians I will refrain from making anymore changes now to this page even if the protection is lifted.
I believe there is still far too much uncertainty over the holocaust as it's being presented. The Institute for Historical Review has presented plenty of information that debunks the holocaust theory. Please see [ [1] Institute of Historical Review website].
In my opinion there is not enough evidence to prove it one way or the other. That being the case, it should not be refered to without some question. NSM88 10:55, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There have been some major recent anonymous additions and changes. They offhand don't look all good or all bad. I'd be a lot more comfortable if some known reasonably expert individual would look through these, revert (or bring to talk) anything they think is wrong, and endorse the rest. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:19, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Goodoldpolonius added this usage note to the page:
However, the Usage Note at Jew of The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition, 2000, says something different:
I think the note by Goodoldpolonius2 strays, in fact, into this territory, of implying that any use of the word "Jew" is offensive, and that therefore people should use circumlocutions like "Jewish person", which is in itself offensive. Jayjg (talk) 03:06, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In my (non-Jewish) experience, it still seems to me that "Jewish" is preferred to "Jew" where no circumlocutions are necessary. Observe, for instance, the common question, "Are you Jewish?", never "Are you a Jew?", which I think might very well be considered offensive. "Are you a Jewish person?" would be odd usage indeed. NTK 14:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with NTK. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to be offended by a phrase like "jew politics," then it's hypocritical to be offended by circumlocutions that imply you would be offended by the word "jew." Anyway, people are typically more offended by "jew" then circumlocutions. So in my everday speach, I always avoid the word "jew." I also avoid the world "black." I would prefer "people of jewish descent" and "people of color/african descent," to "jew" or "black." So far no one has gotten offended by the almost fanatical political correctness all American's must hold to. Except of course the people that are forced do use it, but we're talking about offending those the circumlocutions refer to of course. And that would be people of jewish or african descent, since political correctness doesn't seem to apply to us "yellows." (anon, 9 Apr 05)
Hasdrubal, why not discuss changes here first? Jayjg (talk) 23:37, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and if you're offended by unsourced claims, you shouldn't make your own (regarding many converts to Reform Judaism, for example). Jayjg (talk) 23:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the bulk of Hasdrubal's changes. I suggest that we discuss them one by one. In particular, I notice that there in no longer anything in the article to indicate that Jewish ethnic identity is traditional based on matrilineal descent, which seems to me like a stunning omission. -- 03:40, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
refer either to the adherents of a religion or to members of an ethnic group does not run counter to anything in any branch of Judaism, and, in fact, coincides with the traditional distinction between an Israelite and a Jew; (2) the statement that a Jew is a child of a Jewish mother is an incomplete description of the traditional Rabbinic criterion, as it omits converts as well as, so to speak, the base case for recursion (namely, that the first Jews were those who accepted the covenant at Sinai). Hasdrubal 01:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The claim about the supposed descent of Sephardim from followers of the Palestinian Talmud is completely new to me, and very surprising. For one thing, halakha follows the Bavli in Sephardic communities. Could whoever made that claim please give some sources. Otherwise, I feel the claim ought to be deleted. Hasdrubal 23:58, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Who is going to do something about the sentence "Many empires and rulers have sought to "liquidate" the Jews through wars of destruction, extinction, genocide, expulsions, exiles, and torture."? It sounds really stupid. You can't "liquidate" a people by torture. "Extinction" is a symptom, not an action. And only the Holocaust matches "sought to liquidate the Jews" amongst the events listed afterwards. -- Zero 23:47, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Does Michael Howard really deserve a mention? Not exactly a household word outside of the UK. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:49, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
The newly added claim of 25,000 Jews in Iran should have a citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:17, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
The last sentence (Conversely, when used as a noun (e.g. "He is a Jew"), circumlocutions like "Jewish person" can be seen as offensive, and "Jew" is preferred.)is confusing because the example given does not require circumlocution -- "He is Jewish" is neither wordy or akward. (anon 14 March 2005)
I fail to understand the argument either way for italics or not with the usage note. Personally, I only find the use of "Jew" as an adjective to be offensive if used by someone who is using it in a way that's openly hostile toward Jews. But, that's me. The sniping about putting this paragraph in parentheses as "shrill" however, is equally offensive. To put it in non-italic face would be grand in the wiktionary, but since the definition of a word rarely includes delimiting what the word does not mean, nor notes on its use as other parts of speech, this is an important point that (a) given the frequency with which this article is viewed on a daily basis, should appear early on in the article, unfortunately it probably (b) should be the final part of the opening of the article and (c) should be noticibly set apart from the definition itself, e.g., by italicizing it.
Tomer
TALK 03:20, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I read this article and I still have a question about the term. Now, as I always understood it, "Jew" can be used to describe someone who is part of the Jewish ethnic group, or a follower of the Jewish faith (or both). Now, I understand that the according to whatever religious writings there are, matrilineal descent is required for you to be a Jew. However, that seems to me to be a religious "rule" about Jewish descent. Ethnically and genetically speaking, wouldn't a person who had a Jewish father but a Jewish mother be "half Jewish" since part of his "blood" comes from Jewish ethnicity? Or does the father's ethnicity get disreguarded in that case? Is it term "Jew" mean what it means because originally the religion was so intertwined with the culture and identity that it's not really considered an ethnicity per se, but a religious based ethnicity?
I was thinking about the question because I know someone who has a Jewish father and a Russian mother. Does that make that person 100% Russian?
Incidentally - I may have made this point before and not have got a reply - it seems to me that descent rules belong entirely in the Who is a Jew? section, rather than in the first sentence of this article. First of all, What is a Jew? and Who is a Jew? are two different questions; in the first sentence, it seems, we are trying to answer the first one. The answers given sometimes overlap because they have to (a follower of the Jewish faith may also be a member of the Jewish ethnicity, and generally is) but, in the case of this issue, they overlap because they address different issues: a child of a Jewish mother is, for the Orthodox and the Conservative, automatically a member of the Jewish people (or "ethnicity"). Note that a simple sentence stating that "Jew" refers either to a follower of the Jewish faith or a member of the Jewish ethnicity (or "a member of the Jewish people", or, as in the current version, "someone of Jewish descent with a connection to Jewish culture or ethnicity") would fit in neatly, not just with the current usage of the term, but also with a dichotomy drawn traditionally (between an Israelite and a Jew proper: an apostate is still an Israelite, but no longer a Jew).
Note also that if we are including descent criteria in the definition (as opposed to a separate article and/or a separate section), we should probably include all descent criteria of all subgroups of importance in history (including not only today's Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, but also Karaites, Hellenistic Jews, ancient Israelites,...). That would get a little long, at that place.
Lastly, the phrase included in the definition is not even an accurate and full representation of the Orthodox position. By halakha, as we all know, somebody is a Jew either if his/her mother is Jewish *or* if he/she underwent a halakhic conversion; we would have to include the full criterion - especially given that a backsliding convert, though no longer a follower of the Jewish faith, is still, according to halakha, an Israelite, or member of the Jewish people. Note, moreover, that this is a *criterion* for membership, not a definition of what the person in question is or is not a member of: this is what makes it different from, let us say, a criterion for being or not being an Antartican or an alien entity. Even if we wanted a purely formal definition, the given criterion (as stated above or in the current text) would by itself be insufficient, and indeed meaningless as a definition: we would have induction (or recursion) without a base case. The full answer of "Who is a Jew?" according to halakha is as follows: a Jew is someone who stood at Sinai, or a matrilineal descendant thereof, or a convert to halakhic Judaism. If there is no reference to Sinai, there is no formal definition.
In conclusion: it seems to me to be best to have the definition say simply that "Jew" is a label sometimes used to refer to followers of a religion, or (with a large overlap) to members of a people/members of an ethnic group/participants in a culture/what have you. I think the current first sentence would do nicely, if the phrase on descent were moved to a point later in the article (or left entirely to "Who is a Jew?", though on that I have no preference) and if, perhaps, "people" were added to ethnicity or culture, so as to match more closely with the traditional dichotomy drawn above.
As I have learned (and should have guessed), this is a controversial topic here, so I won't make any changes to the first sentence myself now (or on the matter). What is your opinion? Hasdrubal 23:38, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me like we have an awful lot of links to the Holocaust in this article. I count five. I can see an argument for there being more than one, but this seems excessive. Other opinions solicited. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:02, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)