Frequently asked questions The main points of this FAQ ( Talk:Old Testament messianic prophecies quoted in the New Testament#FAQ) can be summarized as:
More detail is given on this point, below.
Q1: What mainstream Bible scholars do say about messianic prophecies about Jesus?
A1: There all toe the line of
[1]. See also
WP:CHOPSY:
WP:EXTRAORDINARY applies to giving the lie to those six very reputable universities, especially when they all toe the same line.
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Is the title a little POV in that it apparently takes sides on whether these prophecies were about Jesus. Shouldn't a more neutral title be Claimed Messianic prophecies of Jesus or Messianic prophecies (Christian) or something along those lines?-- Andrew c 23:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
What good is claimed? Everything is (unless, of course, you believe). vitiator ( talk) 21:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Based on my reading of the article the title should be: Jewish arguments against Christian Interpretations of Messianic Prophecy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecs9 ( talk • contribs) 22:13, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't think a merge would be appropriate. A concise summary of this article ought to appear on the main article but this artcile is allready to big to fit into another IMO. Peace. -- Home Computer 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The title "Messianic prophecy in Christianity" where Jewish texts are used as if they were all about Jesus is just as absurd as an article called "Jesus as a prophet only in Islam" instead of the current title Islamic view of Jesus which is NPOV. Obviously, this article would be titled "Christian view of Hebrew Scripture" if Wikipedia were truly NPOV. But I don't expect that to ever occur because the predominant view online is that Christians know more about Hebrew scripture than Jews do and google rules Wikipedia instead of the reality of plain words in their original context. 72.74.110.248 18:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I see very little of the Christian views and rebuttals displayed in the article. It seems to be Jewish arguments against Christian views of Hebrew Scriptures, as if Christian aren't allowed to have informed opinions on these matters. Christians will agree with the Christian views, and Jews will disagree. This article should be predominantly Christian views of Jesus and Messianic Prophecy, otherwise its just a lot of nay saying. Jews (and I do have enormous respect for others peoples views as long as they respect mine) Jews could write a counter argument but it would just be: He wasn't the Messiah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecs9 ( talk • contribs) 22:12, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
This article seems to be overly focused on examples of Messianic prophecy in Christianity to the exclusion of analysis of the topic itself (which seems to be relegated to the end of the article). I propose we split this article into two: one with a list of the "prophecies" and one that focuses on the role Messianic prophecy plays in Christianity and the various viewpoints on the accuracy of the Christian view of Messianic prophecy. Any thoughts, support, or opposition? johnpseudo 20:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
delete per below this whole article merely lists verses without even listing the criticism of biblical scholars on each verse until this is done this is pov even tektonics.org admits the Hebrew Scriptures didn't predict Jesus but that the gospel authors took verses out of context don't believe me here is a good example
Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
see http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=son+out+of+egypt&x=0&y=0
"Is OT prophecy fulfillment is a good apologetic? It actually isn't useful in the way it was at first. We need to understand (as do Skeptics) Jewish exegesis of the first century. It is not so much that the OT predicted the NT events as that the NT writers looked at history and sought OT passages that echoed what they had seen. This does not mean that there is not actual predictive prophecy at all (for even then God may have orchestrated the pattern) but rather that we cannot present an apologetic on this basis as we normally have; or else we are forced into a corner of explaining ie, why the NT allegedly uses OT passages "out of context"." source http://www.tektonics.org/af/christianmyths.html -- Java7837 19:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason it is bias this article should not exist it should be deleted--
Java7837
03:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Do not split otherwise it is hard for there to be rebuttals and the skeptic's view page will merely reproduce the list of prophecies page--
Java7837
01:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
While the article with just the "Claimed Prophecies" was definitely POV, it is still POV with the addition of the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies. Just because an article has two unchallenged rants on different sides of the issue does not make an article NPOV. All of the non-fulfilled prophecies can be explained to be explained to have been fulfilled as can all of the fulfilled be explain not to have been fulfilled. The "Christian" prophecies should have Jewish rebuttals under them and the "Jewish" ones should have Christians rebuttals. Currently it looks like the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies should be on the Rejection of Jesus or Criticism of Jesus page or even have there own page as long as it is POV with Christian rebuttals should have Jewish rebuttals. ChrisLamb 19:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean? The book of revelation fulfills the so-called unfulfilled prophecies. Jesus is gonna return again to fullfill the rest of the messianic prophecies according to New Testament scripture. Staraloy ( talk) 12:16, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I've checked the recently added external link for "All about Jesus - Bible studies" and it doesn't seem to include studies that are specifically relevant to the article. Have the others been checked? - Fayenatic london (talk) 08:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This is really very low-quality stuff - take for example the piece on the prophecy from Micah: it says:
While near the end of Micah's prophecy on the Babylonian captivity, Christian scholars have interpreted the text as a messianic prophecy that Christ would be born in Bethlehem.
"But you, O Bethlehem Ephrata, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days."
Bethlehem-Ephrata is the tiny city and clan from which comes the ancient Davidic dynasty with its messianic King. Hence the debate recorded in the book of John: “Others said, ‘This is the Christ.’ But some said, ‘Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the scripture said that the Christ is descended from David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?’ So there was a division among the people over Jesus” (John 7: 41-43).
Yet the mother of Jesus gave birth to him in Bethlehem, as recorded at Luke 2: 1-7. That is why the Church of the Nativity is in Bethlehem; it was built on the site where Jesus was born.
"Assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, king Herod inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. They told him, ‘In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet: And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel’" (Matthew 2: 4-6).
Really? Are you quite sure that "Bethlehem Ephrata" means the village of Bethlehem? Just what does the word "Ephrata" mean? For that matter, what does "Bethlehem" mean? "The tiny city and clan etc" eh? And the Mother of Jesus gave birth to him in Bethlehem did she? Are you quite sure of that? Any alternative opinions you're aware of about the origin of Luke 2:1-7? And Herod assembled the chief priests did he? How do you know this? Matthew 2 says so? Oh really!
Seriously, this article has to be upgraded beyond Sunday School standard.
PiCo 16:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
13 September 2007
I agree with the above poster; this article has so many problems, where does one begin? As a Christian, I particularly object to the fact that Zechariah 13:6 is listed as a Messianic prophecy. Only Christians who are completely unfamiliar with Biblical Hebrew understand this to be Messianic. The actual Hebrew words used there are: וְאָמַר אֵלָיו, מָה הַמַּכּוֹת הָאֵלֶּה בֵּין יָדֶיךָ; וְאָמַר, אֲשֶׁר הֻכֵּיתִי בֵּית מְאַהֲבָי
The Hebrew word בֵּין יָדֶיךָ means "between," it does not mean "in." Therefore, the King James Version of the Bible is incorrect. Most other translations get it right. Contextually, Zech. 13:6 refers to someone who has been beaten on the BACK (the area that's "between the hands") because he's a FALSE PROPHET, which, as a Christian, I would never agree is truthful about Jesus. 207.239.111.117 17:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
While this article does have a lot of flaws it just helped me a lot with a paper I had to write. Articles like these (no matter how controversial) are good! Perhaps to keep wikipedia controversial-free there could be a separate page explaining "the other side". But whatever you say these things are truly in the Christian's bible and Christians DO believe it. As long as this article contains facts about someone's beliefs it should be kept up for the greater knowledge of all. Meheren ( talk) 02:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Many important prophecies in the Bible also relate to Israel and its future, some of which has come to pass. I'm not qualified to write such a page, but I really appreciate this one, as it adds to my knowledge various points of view of these things.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronchall ( talk • contribs) 05:07, 5 March 2008
Are you kidding me? Why was this ever moved to include "claimed" in the title? When it was title "Messianic Prophecy in Christianity" that already demonstrates the "claimed" nature since the whole world is not Christian. Furthermore, why is there a neutrality question? Are we making mountains out of mole hills or what here? This should be moved back to the former title and the neutrality dispute deleted. It goes without saying that something titled, "...in Christianity" is already a claim by those that follow such. Ugh, I guess I'm making it a mountain too, but we are far too PC today, walking on eggshells just because there are differences in beliefs and opinions. Get over it! T geier ( talk) 15:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
It would help for 'better' neutrality if the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament" were replaced by "Hebrew Bible (or Scripture)" and "Christian Bible (or Scripture)" respectively. From a Jewish perspective there is no "new" testament. Dori1951 ( talk) 18:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
I've included this passage but with a note that Jews and Protestants don't consider it Scripture, but most Christians do and it was written by a Jewish author, and thus to exclude it is to give the page a Protestant bias when it is far more explicit than most of the other examples. Maybe not got it completely NPOV but it's use by Matthew is well documented. 82.36.120.66 ( talk) 10:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Before any more work is done reflecting a Jewish approach to the article, references to the scriptural citations need to be used. For example, are the references made to the KJV? If so, its outdated, the discussion should reach some concensus as to which Christian? translation they are going to use, and to please cite it clearly.
The Jewish position is a natural adoption of the actual Hebrew text as the ultimate source, together with the way classical commentators have understood these verses. Dannyza1981 ( talk) 22:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Why is the King James Version outdated? CJB was translated by one man, Dr. Stern. Who reviewed him? No one. His perspective is all you get. KJV was written and compiled by the most respected English theologians of their time. Is the complaint that it is old? Sorry, get over it. The best source material is the oldest. You don't like "thy" and "thou". Sorry you're ignorant and your knowledge of English is weak. Shall we get Dr. Stern to translate Shakespeare for thou? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecs9 ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I believe the preceding comment is unnecessarily abrasive in tone. The English represented in the Kings James Version may have emotional and or aesthetic appeal to many but it is antiquated. Educated, native English speakers have difficulty with the KJV without having a "weak" knowledge of English. The assertion that it is the "best source material" because it is old is incorrect since we are not dealing with a primary source but a translation, the fidelity of a translation to the original doesn't grow with age. The analogy to Shakespeare is poor since the language there is original while preference for the language of the KJV is arbitrary. Nevertheless, David Stern's translation leaves significant terms untranslated for stylistic reasons which may be justified for his purposes but inadequate for ours. Furthermore being the product of an attempt to introduce classically Christian beliefs among the Jewish population it implicitly damages the neutral POV of the article.-- Teshuvas HaMinim ( talk) 02:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Honestly, though, I think the article is more a wikisource article, than a wikipedia article. Think about it. Would you expect to find this article in a regular DVD, or in an information portal? I think this is a good way of determining whether these articles are necessary. The Wikipedia forum is not a place for Christian-Jewish Missionary dialog. It need not even present every single prophecy. This is my take - this article needs to be put in a wikisource or portal, rather than an article on an encyclopedia. Dannyza1981 ( talk) 22:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I have my doubts about this article. Christian contributors to this article should be very aware of the fact that what they read is with a NT Bias. And hence the neutrality of the article is heavily Questionable. For example: consider prophecies for Muhammed found in the NT. With the Quran as a starting point, you can probably find just as much information and hints to Muhammed in the NT, as you can Jesus in the Christian OT, by using the NT, and mistranslating?! passages. I'm questioning here the bias of the writers here. Before you think about providing a source here, what are you trying to convey? That Christians read the bible in this way? The Article should really be on Christian Messianism and how it views Biblical Prophecy. Dannyza1981 ( talk) 22:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
This subsection doesn't really make much sense currently. Can it be rewritten? -- Dweller ( talk) 09:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
This article is way too long, many sections have no citations and are largely original research, and has the same material presented, more or less, three times over - texts that have been cited as messianic; examples of messianic prophecy; table of messianic prophecies. I suggest reducing it dramatically and trying to present it in a more balanced and coherent way. First thing to go, I suggest, is the table at the end which appears to be just one person's original research. -- Rbreen ( talk) 20:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The table is a more complete and condensed version of the content than is found in the text. The table is also sourced and not original. The pdf at cai.org comes from the Thompson Chain Reference Bible which was one of the sources but tables like this are found in several bible dictionaries and handbooks or could be derived independently. This article has had redundancies and quality issues. This article also needs distinctions made between fulfilled and unfulfilled prophecies; between prophecies of a suffering Christ (fulfilled) and prophecies of a glorified Christ (largely unfulfilled). There are exist public teachings of short term and long term fulfillments where the prophecy is believed to be partially fulfilled with a greater fulfillment still to come. The analogy sometimes given is that of seeing a near mountain with a more distant mountain right behind it and seeing both at the same time.
Itohacs 02:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itohacs ( talk • contribs)
There is a popular view among certain Christians that the modern Jewish concept of Messiah actually corresponds to what the New Testament calls the Antichrist. For instance, some have interpreted passages of the Apocalypse in a way that suggests that Jews are awaiting a purely material reign of a false Christ that will serve their own interests. The fact that contemporary Jews want to rebuild the ancient temple of Jerusalem is interpreted as a sign of doom to come. ADM ( talk) 06:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Christians believe that the Jewish Messiah will turn out to be the Antichrist. Portillo ( talk) 09:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I think this article is still encyclopedic and necessary for Wikipedia. Nashhinton ( talk) 09:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I would like to suggest an addition which would be appropriate for the "External links-- Jewish analysis" section, but may not be best for me to add myself. http://www.teshuvashaminim.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teshuvas HaMinim ( talk • contribs) 03:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
It is no secret in the discussion that this page suffers from many problems but one pervasive issue which does not seem to be brought up is the frequency with which a position is presented as "Christian" when it is not at all uncommon for even evangelical/fundamentalist Christians to take a different or more nuanced view of many passages under discussion. In other words, often times a position which is ascribed to "Jewish" or "secular" scholars are held largely or entirely by evangelical scholars when they attempt to explain the plain meaning of the passage in question. Taking this into account would go a long way in evening out the pov issues in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teshuvas HaMinim ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
(I have remove the following section from the article, as it was marked as unreferenced, and much of the information seems repetitive or irrelevant. I have cached it here in case any of it proves useful to be reintegrated into the article in the future.)
As examples, passages are listed below which many Christians consider to be messianic prophecies that refer to Jesus, who they believe is the Messiah. Moshiach Online has a set of articles on Jewish interpretations regarding the Messiah.
Editor2020 ( talk) 03:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
When (and if) I get time, I might add this, but probably will not have time soon. Somebody who is qualified and who can be objective needs to do so. In Islamic doctrine, Jesus is called the Messiah too, and the doctrine of the Second Coming also is shared with Christianity, as is that of the Virgin Birth. Muslims disagree with Christians, though, on Christ's divinity and death but believe He is one of the four Messengers of God, along with an unspecified number of other prophets. In many ways, Christianity and Islam are more similar to each other than are Christianity and Judaism--and also more similar to Judaism than to Christianity. As part of the same Judeo-Islamic-Christian tradition, Islam in many ways combines aspects of the other two faiths. 50.104.198.87 ( talk) 21:39, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
I agree. Staraloy ( talk) 12:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to Jesus and messianic prophecy. Favonian ( talk) 16:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Jesus and Messianic prophecy → Jesus and messianic prophecy – There are some cases of respect-capitalization of this adjective in modern sources, however overall, per WP:CAPS and as per WP:RS usage an adjective should not be capitalized. In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Try 365 Messianic Prophecies -- Quarantine Zone ( talk) 15:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
We have a source (Saldarini) saying parthenos is Greek for virgin, and Sweeney saying scholars agree that almah has nothing to do with virginity per se. What more is there to say? (Sweeney is probably the leading authority on the Old Testament prophetic books) PiCo ( talk) 11:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
As of at least 2006 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Messianic_prophecy&oldid=40382808), when the Messanic prophecy page was updated, and the Revision as of 20:48, 16 February 2007 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jesus_and_messianic_prophecy&diff=prev&oldid=108686013) when it was moved back onto this page, it has stated "This theory is supported by the fact that such a verse exists in a copy of Samuel found among the Dead Sea Scrolls." - this was flagged for a citation in March 2010, and a citation was added in the Revision as of 23:40, 26 July 2015, listing David Keener's 1999 commentary on Matthew ( https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sWzhEdBZOp4C&q=nazereth#v=onepage&q=nazereth&f=false) - this does *not* refer to any such verses and should not be considered a valid citation for this statement. The statement may be true, but I have not found any evidence for it so far - for such a difficult passage none of the following mention it; Tasker (1961), France (1985), Morris (1992) Green (2000), Wright (2002), Legg (2004). Epideme ( talk) 04:29, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
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According to WP:ASSERT we should not label facts as opinions or opinions as facts. It is misleading to attribute the view about those verses to "some scholars, like Bart Ehrman" when it is as objective fact as anything can be an objective fact about the Bible: those verses either aren't prophecies (fact, not opinion), or they make no mention of the word "Messiah" (again, fact, not opinion). The only exception is Zechariah 13:6, which is explicitly about the false prophet. Since there are no Christians prepared to claim that Jesus was a false prophet, Zech. 13:6 obviously isn't (in their view) a prophecy referring to Jesus. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 04:29, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
So, compiling the list of all OT verses which are:
We get a very short list of one prophecy, namely Zech. 13:6. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 04:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
And the strongest argument about it is that post-Enlightenment historians do not work with precognition. So for historians, all prophecies about Jesus must be bunk, since the writers of the Old Testament had no interest of speaking about him, even if they would have known him. Hint: they weren't Christians.
Bart D. Ehrman (23 September 1999).
Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. Oxford University Press. p. 197.
ISBN
978-0-19-983943-8. As I've pointed out, the historian cannot say that demons—real live supernatural spirits that invade human bodies—were actually cast out of people, because to do so would be to transcend the boundaries imposed on the historian by the historical method, in that it would require a religious belief system involving a supernatural realm outside of the historian's province.
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 20:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
We should obey WP:YESPOV. Bona fide history departments have been wholly sold out to methodological naturalism. Post-Enlightenment historians think that supernatural prophecies are bunk. So, no, Ehrman is not alone in endorsing methodological naturalism. In fact, its opponents are WP:FRINGE/PS by our book.
The following are high-level (principal, methodological) WP:RS/AC claims:
(As quoted in our article.)
The problem at this article are POV-pushers who are unaware (ignoramuses) that the history has been purged of the supernatural. For these POV-pushers inside Wikipedia is Catch-22, if the source says those prophecies were genuine, it is not reliable, since it is WP:FRINGE/PS ( pseudohistory). The claim of genuine prophecies about Jesus is methodologically unsound. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 09:52, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Thymes: The above is about your edits. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
The Suffering Servant is Israel. There cannot be much doubt about that, since the Book of Isaiah makes it clear that the Servant is the people of Israel. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:26, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
"Jesus of Nazareth - if a person of this name existed - would be among the many other Jewish messiah claimants." We cannot verify such statement to the citations from Ehrman. Further, Ehrman is not a Jew, so he does not speak in the name of Judaism, he speaks as a mainstream Bible scholar and sought to render the consensus among Bible scholars. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The sources quoted by the IP do speak in the name of Judaism, that is not the question; the question is whether they amount to WP:SCHOLARSHIP and are thus reliable sources. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:20, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. Consensus here is that the proposed descriptive title is a better fit for the content. Cúchullain t/ c 16:14, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Christian messianic prophecies →
Old Testament messianic prophecies quoted in the New Testament – An earlier RM in 2012 has meanwhile been boldly overturned without discussion. "Christian" messianic prophecies is clearly misleading, since these are Old Testament prophecies with Christian interpretation. The proposed title is more factual.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.
Dreamy Jazz 🎷
talk to me |
my contributions
11:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
User:PiCo, where do you get this claim that Immanuel's mother is "standing nearby" as the prophecy is given? Alephb ( talk) 02:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
The Bible verses are listed alphabetically. Should they be shown chronologically? Some original statements appear to be time-sensitive to contemporary events, and others appear to have been based on earlier ones. Asking for a friend. Mannanan51 ( talk) 22:31, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
When Jews read the Bible they think that the Bible is full of Judaism. When Christians read the Bible they think that the Bible is full of Christianity. When a modern Bible scholar reads the Bible he would say "I don't see Judaism, I don't see Christianity, I see the 8th century BCE."
— Shaye J. D. Cohen, http://ruml.com/thehebrewbible/
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 14:54, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
@ GoogleMeNowPlease: I am baffled that you have removed two of the three sources. The argument is that the methodological naturalism of the historical method does not allow for supernatural precognition as objective historical fact. All those three sources toe this line and you either remove all three of them or none of them. Besides, there was nothing inherently anti-Christian about the article: mainline Protestants and Catholics are not principally opposed to higher criticism. Only fundamentalist Christians play a find the heresy game, wherein they claim that mainline Protestants and Catholics aren't really Christians because they do not reject higher criticism out of hand. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 11:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Since the article is OT prophecy quoted in the NT, it would apparently make more sense to take the books of the NT and discuss the OT quotes they make (because they do make them). Ideas? Achar Sva ( talk) 12:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Dear Friends, I just read the article. It is interesting and thorough in many respects (although one or two more like "the Seed of the Woman" Prophesy in Gen 3:15 etc could be added), but I have a question on the "methodological naturalism" assumption. How can we apply such a methodology which both Jews and Christians reject as if it were "neutral" or universally accepted? Jews certainly believe the Prophetic Books (whose very name implies what they are believed to be) Prophesy the Coming of the Jewish Messiah. No question about that. Christians also believe the same, and further believe that Jesus Christ is that Jewish Messiah. Atheists or Secularists are the only ones who claim methodological or even metaphysical naturalism must a priori be assumed as either a necessary methodology or objective fact in order to do historical studies into the sacred Books. The Prophets didn't intend their Books to be treated as non-prophesies. They were called Prophets because they intended to deliver prophesies. A serious study of the prophesies can lead to a reasonable conclusion that (1) the Prophetic deadlines for the Messiah to come are past, and (2) therefore, the Messiah has already come. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NishantXavier ( talk • contribs) 13:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
the Prophetic deadlines for the Messiah to come are pastis a biased and self-serving conclusion. Liberal theology agrees that history relies upon methodological naturalism. Yup, not all Christians are fundies, many denominations love historical criticism (as least as far as their divinity schools are concerned). So, yes, methodological naturalism is quasi-unanimously accepted by historians. If you don't accept it, you're not writing history, but you are writing theology. WP:MAINSTREAM Bible scholars have nothing against that, e.g.:
Well, that presupposes a belief in God. Historians can't presuppose belief in God. Historians can only work with what we've got here among us. People who are historians can be of any theological persuasion. They can be Buddhists, they can be Hindus, they can be Muslims, they can be Christians, they can be Jews, they can be agnostics, they can be atheists, and the theory behind the canons in historical research is that people of every persuasion can look at the evidence and draw the same conclusions. But Bill's hypothesis requires a person to believe in God. I don't object to that as a way of thinking. I object to that as a way of historical thinking, because it's not history, it's theology.
— Bart Ehrman, Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?
Wikipedia's primary role, as an encyclopedia, is, well, to be encyclopedic. This article repeatedly cites only skeptical sources, which can be seen as not maintaining encyclopedic neutrality. Just because the editors of this page are skeptics does not mean the world is entirely skeptical of these prophecies. Please note that we should not be looking for journalistic neutrality, and I am not voicing for that. But for this article to be adherent to its purpose, it should not be presenting only one view. One example I choose to cite is the first prophecy from Isaiah: Isaiah 7:14. The statement "Scholars agree that almah has nothing to do with virginity" is erroneous. There are several Hebrew scholars who have a different view (which also makes more logical sense than the skeptics' point, but that has nothing to do with Wikipedia) including reputable ones like Dr. Zhava Glaser, who is an associate professor of the Old Testament and surely has some influence on this topic. Her view has been linked here. [1].
This is not the only example. Almost all the prophecies have a more logical interpretation (please note that logical fallacies are independent of how much bearing they have on the world) and thus carry weight. Additionally, Christianity is the largest religion, so an argument for a skeptic-only article has no encyclopedic grounds. The skeptics' view should not be the only one highlighted here.
Please respect the view of the whole world, and not the little community of watchers and persistent editors of this page. Willcmc ( talk) 05:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
... Wikipedia, as usually, prefers its narratives and its ivory tower snobbery over any serious attempt to listen to the common man ... -- 2600:1700:9190:5DF0:F58B:D8E3:5BC7:9C99 ( talk) 01:34, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Dispute resolution won't do any good. The feedback you've gotten so far is the exact same kind of feedback that you would get in Wikipedia's dispute resolution systems. To simplify it somewhat, Wikipedia reflects the kind of scholarship that you find at leading secular universities, such as those mentioned at WP:CHOPSY: the kinds of things you would find taught at Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton, the Sorbonne, and/or Yale. If a view is considered fringe in those kinds of circles, you can bet that it will be considered fringe at Wikipedia. Now, that may not seem fair, especially if you believe the CHOPSY outlook is wrong. But that is the way Wikipedia has been since its inception, and it would be very unlikely if you could talk the Wikipedia community out of the approach that they've used since the beginning. As William Dever put it in "What Remains of the House that Albright Built?', "the overwhelming scholarly consensus today is that Moses is a mythical figure." That's from William Dever, who is on the conservative side of much of the debate currently going on within mainstream biblical studies. The great majority of mainstream scholars have abandoned the idea of Moses as a historical figure. Alephb ( talk) 00:10, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
This isn’t simply the approach of “liberal” Bible professors. It’s the way historians always date sources. If you find a letter written on paper that is obviously 300 years old or so, and the author says something about the “United States” — then you know it was written after the Revolutionary War. So too if you find an ancient document that describes the destruction of Jerusalem, then you know it was written after 70 CE. It’s not rocket science! But it’s also not “liberal.” It’s simply how history is done. If someone wants to invent other rules, they’re the ones who are begging questions!
Well, that presupposes a belief in God. Historians can't presuppose belief in God. Historians can only work with what we've got here among us. People who are historians can be of any theological persuasion. They can be Buddhists, they can be Hindus, they can be Muslims, they can be Christians, they can be Jews, they can be agnostics, they can be atheists, and the theory behind the canons in historical research is that people of every persuasion can look at the evidence and draw the same conclusions. But Bill's hypothesis requires a person to believe in God. I don't object to that as a way of thinking. I object to that as a way of historical thinking, because it's not history, it's theology.
— Bart Ehrman, Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?
quote only one side of the debatewe're not Debatepedia, we apply WP:ONEWAY and WP:GEVAL. We don't kowtow to true believers, we kowtow to Ivy Plus. If we tell it the Ivy Plus way, we have done a good job. Apologetics is quite lowbrow theology and as history it is pseudoscholarship. If one is not skeptical about the Bible, he/she isn't a historian of the Bible.
References
Isn't this an encyclopedia? The title of this article is clear. But the contents stray from the title.
The article seems to have no Bible scholars checking it. Most significantly is the failure to recognize that a historical event can be both historical and yet prophetic.
Case in point: Under Debate about prophecy fulfillment, the article states: Skeptics say that the Hosea passage clearly is talking about a historical event and therefore the passage clearly is not a prophecy.
However, by doing so these skeptics (which it sounds like the article author is biased towards) are also removing all past historical events from the possibility of prophetic foreshadowing. Similar dual-purpose events can be seen in historical events like Moses's bronze snake on a pole as described in Numbers 21:9. This event is later revealed by Jesus to serve as a prophetic event that foreshadows the method of the Messiah's work,
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up." John 3:14
The same can be said of the Book of Jonah. Whether Jonah is taken as a true historical narrative or allegory, the fact remains that in Matthew 12:40 Jesus cites Jonah's three-day entombment as both a historical event and a foreshadowing of his own crucifixion and three-day entombment. Additional examples include Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son (and ultimately receiving a substitute) as historically described in Genesis 22. Here Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son in obedience to the will of God serves as a foreshadow of the Gospel narratives as stated plainly in John 3:16, and expounded upon in Romans 3. Christians see the Messiah as a sacrificial substitute to take on God's wrath for humankind's sins. What's more long-standing Jewish ceremonies and traditions are often cited as a foreshadowing of God's plan of salvation, culminating in the work of the Messiah:
"3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”" Hebrews 10:3–7
So the fact that such a passage in Hosea or elsewhere talks about a historical event does not necessarily rule it out as prophetic in nature. Otherwise, vast portions of Jewish history and religious practices from Genesis to the return from exile and all the sacrifices for sins that took place during those times could not be considered prophetic to the final sacrificial work of the Messiah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:443:c101:c760:2de6:63fe:d49d:9b5e ( talk • contribs)
Prophecies from book of Enoch should be added. It is considered scripture by Ethiopian Orthodox Church. If we are gonna include Deuterocanonical books, we must include Enoch too. There are many Jesus prophecies in Enoch. Jude quoted from book of Enoch in Jude 14. Staraloy ( talk) 12:19, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Søren Kierkegaard does agree that choosing for Christianity cannot be based upon sufficient reason. The truth value of Christian theology is a contingent truth. Meaning science and history could never show that Christianity is true; it isn't thus objectively true.
And no, Kierkegaard was no atheist. He was more fundamentalist than your rank-and-file Bible thumper. He just wasn't stupid, and some Christians are inclined to think that not being stupid is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there is no cogent explanation of why do they consider him an atheist. I have lived to see a fundamentalist Protestant being called an atheist by fellow fundamentalists who want to win an argument through spewing claptrap memes. I mean even Conservapedia does not call him an atheist. So, of all the fake claims I have heard at Wikipedia, this one is fake in a very big way. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
became aware of the many ways in which Jesus Christ proved His claims to be the Messiah
is true believer's
WP:POV, it isn't
WP:RNPOV, as our articles should be. See also
emic and etic.
Tgeorgescu (
talk)
12:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Too much of
WP:NOTFORUM.
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@ NishantXavier: You're pushing the POV that Liberal Christianity isn't Christian at all. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:23, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Many Jews are educating us Gentiles that Jewish scholars, for centuries, have seen Isaiah 53, for e.g. as a prophesy of the Messiah. Here's a scholarly work about it on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Third-Chapter-Isaiah-according-interpreters/dp/1590459857 A website: "Messianic Jewish talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts those early views:3 [Footnote: 3. Frydland, Rachmiel, ISSUES: A Messianic Jewish Perspective, Vol. 2:5, p. 2] Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God's Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words: Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum)." https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v13-n06/whos-the-subject-of-isaiah-53-you-decide/ Jews regard the OT writers as real Prophets. NishantXavier ( talk) 11:24, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Do you want to speak theology instead of history? Fine: it never was a Catholic prophecy (historically it was employed to say all sorts of bad things about the Catholic Church), mainline Protestants and Evangelicals see that prophecy as largely debunked, for the Eastern Orthodox it is a quarrel among heretics. It is only proclaimed by the Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses (among the larger denominations). So, you speak for tiny minorities, both in history as an academic field and in theology. That's why
WP:FRINGE applies to you claims. The
Prophecy of Seventy Weeks is seen as debunked by the overwhelming majority of historians and theologians, and there remain just tiny hold outs of true believers who still accept it as true belief.
References
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Who cares about the Jesus Seminar? The Jesus Seminar is WP:FRINGE by design. And they are certainly not representative for mainstream Bible scholarship. At the other extreme, equally fringe is biblical literalism. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:05, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Perseverenceoftruth: WP:BLOGS are not WP:RS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 23:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Perseverenceoftruth: We don't discuss the Jesus Seminar in this article. Jesus Seminar is a red herring.
Sometimes in the mainstream academia, dispute is over and a side has lost the dispute. According to Richard Carrier, is the idea that apologetics is actually specifically designed to avoid discovering the truth about things it's designed to specifically justify things you want to believe
.
It is a WP:FRINGE view that one can prove historically that Jesus is the Messiah. You may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but there is no way to know that according to the historical method. Maintaining otherwise is pseudohistory. You may ask any Christian historian worth their salt and they will confirm this to be true. Even if Jesus was the Messiah in the Absolute Reality, there is no way to prove it historically. The epistemology of history does not allow historians to draw such conclusions. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:07, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
About Christianity maintains that there is evidence Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecies
: no, it doesn't, unless you conflate uneducated Christianity with fundamentalist Christianity and ignore there are educated liberal Christians who don't buy into fundamentalist dogmas. So, yes, educated liberal Christians believe Christ is the Lord, but they don't play fast and loose with the epistemology of history in order to draw unsupported conclusions.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
21:27, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
I haven't read the entire article, just the intro and outro, but I was struck by something that stood out odd to me:
"Old Testament prophecies about Jesus are either not thought to be prophecies by critical scholars (the verses make no claim of predicting anything) or do not explicitly refer to the Messiah"
Yet the article on Messiah says:
"Messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, however, and the concept of 'the' Messiah as a single individual is a strictly post-Biblical tradition as it is not found in the Old Testament".
So I would expect verses aren't explicitly referring to the Messiah if the Messiah is never explicitly referenced anywhere in the Old Testament. That kind of argument is misleading, if not a bit fallacious. If I say "if it snows tomorrow then the sky will turn purple" and it doesn't snow tomorrow, then you can't say that I was "disproven".
The audience of Jesus and the Apostles was Second Temple Judaism, so the interpretation of prophesies should be understood in that cultural context (and not exclusively modern critical reading). Apocalypticism had a very strong influence to Jews of the first century, and they looked to various Old Testament passages as foreshadowing the coming of an end-times Messiah. So when Christian theologians examines Messianic prophesies, they don't tend to ask "does this verse refer to the Messiah in its original context?", but rather they consider "did the audience of Jesus and his apostles consider this verse referring to the Messiah?". As an illustrative example, modern scholars interpret the Suffering Servant as referring to the Nation of Israel itself, but Jewish Apocalypticism in the first century did interpret it as a Messianic prophesy.
At best, ignoring that cultural context is missing valuable information that is critically relevant to the article. At worst, it is a misleading argument that gives the impression that these verses were never considered to be Messianic prophesies, which is certainly not true.
In fact, there are few if any instances of Messianic prophesies (as interpreted by Second Temple Judaism) that the New Testament doesn't address in some way. Second Temple Judaism did believe that the Messiah would re-establish a Jewish Kingdom and overthrow the Romans, and the lack of this happening was an argument used by Jews in Early Christianity. The New Testament does address this, but re-interprets this as referring metaphorically to the Kingdom of Heaven. This kind of debate is severely lacking from the article, since it gives the impression that the Old Testament has no Messianic prophesies (which may be the case for modern scholars, but not for Jewish teachers in Jesus' day).
Furthermore, the article only discusses interpretation of the Old Testament by modern scholars, and doesn't examine how these prophesies influenced the development of Christianity or how they were interpreted by Early Christian writers. Historical method doesn't delve into the supernatural or make theological speculation, so really the concept of modern scholars examining the fulfillment of Messianic prophesies is somewhat oxymoronic. As Messianic Prophesies are a debate of religion, then the article should examine the different religious perspectives, which is a debate irrelevant to a secular historian.
It would be cool if this article listed out Messianic prophesies as understood by Second Temple or other eras of Judaism, and discusses how this is addressed or not addressed by the New Testament or Christian theologians. Note that Messianic prophecies redirects to this article, even in Jewish-specific topics. Rather than exhaustively discussing relevant information on the topic, it seems this article was written for the purpose of debunking Christian apologetics. LutherVinci ( talk) 16:14, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Liberty University is a university in name only. It requires "compatibility with a young-earth creationist philosophy" for staff they recruit to their biology department. That does not mean that everything every member of the university does is bogus, but it does mean that their opinions have to be taken with a pillar of salt, and that a-priori, their weight in the academic debate is marginal at best. I can find a total of two publications for Chatraw on Google Scholar, none of which has been cited even once. He lists a few more publications on his web page, but they are all in explicitly evangelical walled garden journals. It's not a significant contribution to mainstream academic opinion. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 15:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
It’s clear to see the bias in this article. This almost reads like an opinion editorial. 24.96.95.45 ( talk) 11:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
You should generally assume that Wikipedia has the same view of what is WP:SCHOLARSHIP as https://www.britannica.com/topic/biblical-literature/Daniel#ref597857 and https://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/oeuvre/livre_de_Daniel/115594 . Wikipedia isn't their dumber sister.
This also applies to https://iranicaonline.org/articles/darius-ii and https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/philosophy-and-religion/biblical-proper-names-biographies/darius-mede . Belief in a real Darius the Mede is restricted to religious fanatics and ignoramuses.
The difference is that Britannica, Larousse, Iranica and Judaica do not have talk pages wherein random visitors complain those encyclopedias are biased.
Okay, now I had no longer quoted Ehrman or any liberal scholar. I have quoted a professor from Moody Bible Institute (Wheaton is a liberal college compared to MBI) and a faithful Mormon academic. tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Patterns of evidence the Moses controversy looks at a debate entering today's college classrooms the Moses controversy is really the question of did Moses write the first books of the Bible and from a lot of Christians it's not a controversy at all but as soon as you send your son or daughter off to college or university they're gonna hear a different story
@ TeenAngels1234: Farrell Till was a pastor, so he had to study theology for it. Later, he converted to atheism and became a notable spokesman for atheists. He even has his own Wikipedia article: Farrell Till. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
I made some edits today to I add more nuance to the text but these were removed without discussion or debate. Please advise? BibleWatchman ( talk) 18:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
tgeorgescu July 30, 2021 at 3:34 pm - Reply
Quote: This isn’t simply the approach of “liberal” Bible professors. It’s the way historians always date sources. If you find a letter written on paper that is obviously 300 years old or so, and the author says something about the “United States” — then you know it was written after the Revolutionary War. So too if you find an ancient document that describes the destruction of Jerusalem, then you know it was written after 70 CE. It’s not rocket science! But it’s also not “liberal.” It’s simply how history is done. If someone wants to invent other rules, they’re the ones who are begging questions!
Can I receive a formal confirmation that you have actually written this? It has been lost somewhere in comments and I cannot find it again. It is important because I quoted it inside Wikipedia and needs a source.
BDEhrman
BDEhrman July 31, 2021 at 7:35 am - Reply
The first part sounds like something I would have said. The second part not so much. BUt I sometimes do say things that are phrased more strongly than I would typically phrase them (unless it’s over drinks). Are you quoting this from one of my comments? Then yes, that’s what I said. If I did, I was stressing the point “describes.” THat is, if you have an account that refers in some detail to airplanes striking the Twin Towers, then the account was certainly written after 9/11, even if it is phrased as a prophecy.
I have reverted vandalism. Most Christians are or would count themselves in the Liberal Christianity camp if they would think it through. Liberal Christianity has absolutely no problem with this article. Wikipedia is indeed biased for WP:BESTSOURCES.
Note that I have WP:CITEd a professor from the Moody Bible Institute ("Bible is our middle name"), who sees the problem only too well.
So, no, Wikipedia isn't anti-Christian. But it isn't WP:CENSORED for the protection of the sensibilities of fundamentalist Christians.
In light of the epistemology of history, our article makes perfect sense: the authors of the Old Testament could not have known anything about Jesus of Nazareth, since they lived many centuries before him. If your divinity school isn't fundamentalist or evangelical, its professors will readily admit this. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
Frequently asked questions The main points of this FAQ ( Talk:Old Testament messianic prophecies quoted in the New Testament#FAQ) can be summarized as:
More detail is given on this point, below.
Q1: What mainstream Bible scholars do say about messianic prophecies about Jesus?
A1: There all toe the line of
[1]. See also
WP:CHOPSY:
WP:EXTRAORDINARY applies to giving the lie to those six very reputable universities, especially when they all toe the same line.
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 26 June 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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Is the title a little POV in that it apparently takes sides on whether these prophecies were about Jesus. Shouldn't a more neutral title be Claimed Messianic prophecies of Jesus or Messianic prophecies (Christian) or something along those lines?-- Andrew c 23:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
What good is claimed? Everything is (unless, of course, you believe). vitiator ( talk) 21:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Based on my reading of the article the title should be: Jewish arguments against Christian Interpretations of Messianic Prophecy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecs9 ( talk • contribs) 22:13, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't think a merge would be appropriate. A concise summary of this article ought to appear on the main article but this artcile is allready to big to fit into another IMO. Peace. -- Home Computer 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The title "Messianic prophecy in Christianity" where Jewish texts are used as if they were all about Jesus is just as absurd as an article called "Jesus as a prophet only in Islam" instead of the current title Islamic view of Jesus which is NPOV. Obviously, this article would be titled "Christian view of Hebrew Scripture" if Wikipedia were truly NPOV. But I don't expect that to ever occur because the predominant view online is that Christians know more about Hebrew scripture than Jews do and google rules Wikipedia instead of the reality of plain words in their original context. 72.74.110.248 18:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I see very little of the Christian views and rebuttals displayed in the article. It seems to be Jewish arguments against Christian views of Hebrew Scriptures, as if Christian aren't allowed to have informed opinions on these matters. Christians will agree with the Christian views, and Jews will disagree. This article should be predominantly Christian views of Jesus and Messianic Prophecy, otherwise its just a lot of nay saying. Jews (and I do have enormous respect for others peoples views as long as they respect mine) Jews could write a counter argument but it would just be: He wasn't the Messiah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecs9 ( talk • contribs) 22:12, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
This article seems to be overly focused on examples of Messianic prophecy in Christianity to the exclusion of analysis of the topic itself (which seems to be relegated to the end of the article). I propose we split this article into two: one with a list of the "prophecies" and one that focuses on the role Messianic prophecy plays in Christianity and the various viewpoints on the accuracy of the Christian view of Messianic prophecy. Any thoughts, support, or opposition? johnpseudo 20:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
delete per below this whole article merely lists verses without even listing the criticism of biblical scholars on each verse until this is done this is pov even tektonics.org admits the Hebrew Scriptures didn't predict Jesus but that the gospel authors took verses out of context don't believe me here is a good example
Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
see http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=son+out+of+egypt&x=0&y=0
"Is OT prophecy fulfillment is a good apologetic? It actually isn't useful in the way it was at first. We need to understand (as do Skeptics) Jewish exegesis of the first century. It is not so much that the OT predicted the NT events as that the NT writers looked at history and sought OT passages that echoed what they had seen. This does not mean that there is not actual predictive prophecy at all (for even then God may have orchestrated the pattern) but rather that we cannot present an apologetic on this basis as we normally have; or else we are forced into a corner of explaining ie, why the NT allegedly uses OT passages "out of context"." source http://www.tektonics.org/af/christianmyths.html -- Java7837 19:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason it is bias this article should not exist it should be deleted--
Java7837
03:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Do not split otherwise it is hard for there to be rebuttals and the skeptic's view page will merely reproduce the list of prophecies page--
Java7837
01:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
While the article with just the "Claimed Prophecies" was definitely POV, it is still POV with the addition of the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies. Just because an article has two unchallenged rants on different sides of the issue does not make an article NPOV. All of the non-fulfilled prophecies can be explained to be explained to have been fulfilled as can all of the fulfilled be explain not to have been fulfilled. The "Christian" prophecies should have Jewish rebuttals under them and the "Jewish" ones should have Christians rebuttals. Currently it looks like the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies should be on the Rejection of Jesus or Criticism of Jesus page or even have there own page as long as it is POV with Christian rebuttals should have Jewish rebuttals. ChrisLamb 19:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean? The book of revelation fulfills the so-called unfulfilled prophecies. Jesus is gonna return again to fullfill the rest of the messianic prophecies according to New Testament scripture. Staraloy ( talk) 12:16, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I've checked the recently added external link for "All about Jesus - Bible studies" and it doesn't seem to include studies that are specifically relevant to the article. Have the others been checked? - Fayenatic london (talk) 08:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This is really very low-quality stuff - take for example the piece on the prophecy from Micah: it says:
While near the end of Micah's prophecy on the Babylonian captivity, Christian scholars have interpreted the text as a messianic prophecy that Christ would be born in Bethlehem.
"But you, O Bethlehem Ephrata, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days."
Bethlehem-Ephrata is the tiny city and clan from which comes the ancient Davidic dynasty with its messianic King. Hence the debate recorded in the book of John: “Others said, ‘This is the Christ.’ But some said, ‘Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the scripture said that the Christ is descended from David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?’ So there was a division among the people over Jesus” (John 7: 41-43).
Yet the mother of Jesus gave birth to him in Bethlehem, as recorded at Luke 2: 1-7. That is why the Church of the Nativity is in Bethlehem; it was built on the site where Jesus was born.
"Assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, king Herod inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. They told him, ‘In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet: And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel’" (Matthew 2: 4-6).
Really? Are you quite sure that "Bethlehem Ephrata" means the village of Bethlehem? Just what does the word "Ephrata" mean? For that matter, what does "Bethlehem" mean? "The tiny city and clan etc" eh? And the Mother of Jesus gave birth to him in Bethlehem did she? Are you quite sure of that? Any alternative opinions you're aware of about the origin of Luke 2:1-7? And Herod assembled the chief priests did he? How do you know this? Matthew 2 says so? Oh really!
Seriously, this article has to be upgraded beyond Sunday School standard.
PiCo 16:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
13 September 2007
I agree with the above poster; this article has so many problems, where does one begin? As a Christian, I particularly object to the fact that Zechariah 13:6 is listed as a Messianic prophecy. Only Christians who are completely unfamiliar with Biblical Hebrew understand this to be Messianic. The actual Hebrew words used there are: וְאָמַר אֵלָיו, מָה הַמַּכּוֹת הָאֵלֶּה בֵּין יָדֶיךָ; וְאָמַר, אֲשֶׁר הֻכֵּיתִי בֵּית מְאַהֲבָי
The Hebrew word בֵּין יָדֶיךָ means "between," it does not mean "in." Therefore, the King James Version of the Bible is incorrect. Most other translations get it right. Contextually, Zech. 13:6 refers to someone who has been beaten on the BACK (the area that's "between the hands") because he's a FALSE PROPHET, which, as a Christian, I would never agree is truthful about Jesus. 207.239.111.117 17:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
While this article does have a lot of flaws it just helped me a lot with a paper I had to write. Articles like these (no matter how controversial) are good! Perhaps to keep wikipedia controversial-free there could be a separate page explaining "the other side". But whatever you say these things are truly in the Christian's bible and Christians DO believe it. As long as this article contains facts about someone's beliefs it should be kept up for the greater knowledge of all. Meheren ( talk) 02:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Many important prophecies in the Bible also relate to Israel and its future, some of which has come to pass. I'm not qualified to write such a page, but I really appreciate this one, as it adds to my knowledge various points of view of these things.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronchall ( talk • contribs) 05:07, 5 March 2008
Are you kidding me? Why was this ever moved to include "claimed" in the title? When it was title "Messianic Prophecy in Christianity" that already demonstrates the "claimed" nature since the whole world is not Christian. Furthermore, why is there a neutrality question? Are we making mountains out of mole hills or what here? This should be moved back to the former title and the neutrality dispute deleted. It goes without saying that something titled, "...in Christianity" is already a claim by those that follow such. Ugh, I guess I'm making it a mountain too, but we are far too PC today, walking on eggshells just because there are differences in beliefs and opinions. Get over it! T geier ( talk) 15:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
It would help for 'better' neutrality if the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament" were replaced by "Hebrew Bible (or Scripture)" and "Christian Bible (or Scripture)" respectively. From a Jewish perspective there is no "new" testament. Dori1951 ( talk) 18:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
I've included this passage but with a note that Jews and Protestants don't consider it Scripture, but most Christians do and it was written by a Jewish author, and thus to exclude it is to give the page a Protestant bias when it is far more explicit than most of the other examples. Maybe not got it completely NPOV but it's use by Matthew is well documented. 82.36.120.66 ( talk) 10:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Before any more work is done reflecting a Jewish approach to the article, references to the scriptural citations need to be used. For example, are the references made to the KJV? If so, its outdated, the discussion should reach some concensus as to which Christian? translation they are going to use, and to please cite it clearly.
The Jewish position is a natural adoption of the actual Hebrew text as the ultimate source, together with the way classical commentators have understood these verses. Dannyza1981 ( talk) 22:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Why is the King James Version outdated? CJB was translated by one man, Dr. Stern. Who reviewed him? No one. His perspective is all you get. KJV was written and compiled by the most respected English theologians of their time. Is the complaint that it is old? Sorry, get over it. The best source material is the oldest. You don't like "thy" and "thou". Sorry you're ignorant and your knowledge of English is weak. Shall we get Dr. Stern to translate Shakespeare for thou? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecs9 ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I believe the preceding comment is unnecessarily abrasive in tone. The English represented in the Kings James Version may have emotional and or aesthetic appeal to many but it is antiquated. Educated, native English speakers have difficulty with the KJV without having a "weak" knowledge of English. The assertion that it is the "best source material" because it is old is incorrect since we are not dealing with a primary source but a translation, the fidelity of a translation to the original doesn't grow with age. The analogy to Shakespeare is poor since the language there is original while preference for the language of the KJV is arbitrary. Nevertheless, David Stern's translation leaves significant terms untranslated for stylistic reasons which may be justified for his purposes but inadequate for ours. Furthermore being the product of an attempt to introduce classically Christian beliefs among the Jewish population it implicitly damages the neutral POV of the article.-- Teshuvas HaMinim ( talk) 02:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Honestly, though, I think the article is more a wikisource article, than a wikipedia article. Think about it. Would you expect to find this article in a regular DVD, or in an information portal? I think this is a good way of determining whether these articles are necessary. The Wikipedia forum is not a place for Christian-Jewish Missionary dialog. It need not even present every single prophecy. This is my take - this article needs to be put in a wikisource or portal, rather than an article on an encyclopedia. Dannyza1981 ( talk) 22:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I have my doubts about this article. Christian contributors to this article should be very aware of the fact that what they read is with a NT Bias. And hence the neutrality of the article is heavily Questionable. For example: consider prophecies for Muhammed found in the NT. With the Quran as a starting point, you can probably find just as much information and hints to Muhammed in the NT, as you can Jesus in the Christian OT, by using the NT, and mistranslating?! passages. I'm questioning here the bias of the writers here. Before you think about providing a source here, what are you trying to convey? That Christians read the bible in this way? The Article should really be on Christian Messianism and how it views Biblical Prophecy. Dannyza1981 ( talk) 22:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
This subsection doesn't really make much sense currently. Can it be rewritten? -- Dweller ( talk) 09:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
This article is way too long, many sections have no citations and are largely original research, and has the same material presented, more or less, three times over - texts that have been cited as messianic; examples of messianic prophecy; table of messianic prophecies. I suggest reducing it dramatically and trying to present it in a more balanced and coherent way. First thing to go, I suggest, is the table at the end which appears to be just one person's original research. -- Rbreen ( talk) 20:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The table is a more complete and condensed version of the content than is found in the text. The table is also sourced and not original. The pdf at cai.org comes from the Thompson Chain Reference Bible which was one of the sources but tables like this are found in several bible dictionaries and handbooks or could be derived independently. This article has had redundancies and quality issues. This article also needs distinctions made between fulfilled and unfulfilled prophecies; between prophecies of a suffering Christ (fulfilled) and prophecies of a glorified Christ (largely unfulfilled). There are exist public teachings of short term and long term fulfillments where the prophecy is believed to be partially fulfilled with a greater fulfillment still to come. The analogy sometimes given is that of seeing a near mountain with a more distant mountain right behind it and seeing both at the same time.
Itohacs 02:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itohacs ( talk • contribs)
There is a popular view among certain Christians that the modern Jewish concept of Messiah actually corresponds to what the New Testament calls the Antichrist. For instance, some have interpreted passages of the Apocalypse in a way that suggests that Jews are awaiting a purely material reign of a false Christ that will serve their own interests. The fact that contemporary Jews want to rebuild the ancient temple of Jerusalem is interpreted as a sign of doom to come. ADM ( talk) 06:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Christians believe that the Jewish Messiah will turn out to be the Antichrist. Portillo ( talk) 09:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I think this article is still encyclopedic and necessary for Wikipedia. Nashhinton ( talk) 09:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I would like to suggest an addition which would be appropriate for the "External links-- Jewish analysis" section, but may not be best for me to add myself. http://www.teshuvashaminim.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teshuvas HaMinim ( talk • contribs) 03:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
It is no secret in the discussion that this page suffers from many problems but one pervasive issue which does not seem to be brought up is the frequency with which a position is presented as "Christian" when it is not at all uncommon for even evangelical/fundamentalist Christians to take a different or more nuanced view of many passages under discussion. In other words, often times a position which is ascribed to "Jewish" or "secular" scholars are held largely or entirely by evangelical scholars when they attempt to explain the plain meaning of the passage in question. Taking this into account would go a long way in evening out the pov issues in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teshuvas HaMinim ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
(I have remove the following section from the article, as it was marked as unreferenced, and much of the information seems repetitive or irrelevant. I have cached it here in case any of it proves useful to be reintegrated into the article in the future.)
As examples, passages are listed below which many Christians consider to be messianic prophecies that refer to Jesus, who they believe is the Messiah. Moshiach Online has a set of articles on Jewish interpretations regarding the Messiah.
Editor2020 ( talk) 03:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
When (and if) I get time, I might add this, but probably will not have time soon. Somebody who is qualified and who can be objective needs to do so. In Islamic doctrine, Jesus is called the Messiah too, and the doctrine of the Second Coming also is shared with Christianity, as is that of the Virgin Birth. Muslims disagree with Christians, though, on Christ's divinity and death but believe He is one of the four Messengers of God, along with an unspecified number of other prophets. In many ways, Christianity and Islam are more similar to each other than are Christianity and Judaism--and also more similar to Judaism than to Christianity. As part of the same Judeo-Islamic-Christian tradition, Islam in many ways combines aspects of the other two faiths. 50.104.198.87 ( talk) 21:39, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
I agree. Staraloy ( talk) 12:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to Jesus and messianic prophecy. Favonian ( talk) 16:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Jesus and Messianic prophecy → Jesus and messianic prophecy – There are some cases of respect-capitalization of this adjective in modern sources, however overall, per WP:CAPS and as per WP:RS usage an adjective should not be capitalized. In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Try 365 Messianic Prophecies -- Quarantine Zone ( talk) 15:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
We have a source (Saldarini) saying parthenos is Greek for virgin, and Sweeney saying scholars agree that almah has nothing to do with virginity per se. What more is there to say? (Sweeney is probably the leading authority on the Old Testament prophetic books) PiCo ( talk) 11:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
As of at least 2006 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Messianic_prophecy&oldid=40382808), when the Messanic prophecy page was updated, and the Revision as of 20:48, 16 February 2007 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jesus_and_messianic_prophecy&diff=prev&oldid=108686013) when it was moved back onto this page, it has stated "This theory is supported by the fact that such a verse exists in a copy of Samuel found among the Dead Sea Scrolls." - this was flagged for a citation in March 2010, and a citation was added in the Revision as of 23:40, 26 July 2015, listing David Keener's 1999 commentary on Matthew ( https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sWzhEdBZOp4C&q=nazereth#v=onepage&q=nazereth&f=false) - this does *not* refer to any such verses and should not be considered a valid citation for this statement. The statement may be true, but I have not found any evidence for it so far - for such a difficult passage none of the following mention it; Tasker (1961), France (1985), Morris (1992) Green (2000), Wright (2002), Legg (2004). Epideme ( talk) 04:29, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
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According to WP:ASSERT we should not label facts as opinions or opinions as facts. It is misleading to attribute the view about those verses to "some scholars, like Bart Ehrman" when it is as objective fact as anything can be an objective fact about the Bible: those verses either aren't prophecies (fact, not opinion), or they make no mention of the word "Messiah" (again, fact, not opinion). The only exception is Zechariah 13:6, which is explicitly about the false prophet. Since there are no Christians prepared to claim that Jesus was a false prophet, Zech. 13:6 obviously isn't (in their view) a prophecy referring to Jesus. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 04:29, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
So, compiling the list of all OT verses which are:
We get a very short list of one prophecy, namely Zech. 13:6. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 04:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
And the strongest argument about it is that post-Enlightenment historians do not work with precognition. So for historians, all prophecies about Jesus must be bunk, since the writers of the Old Testament had no interest of speaking about him, even if they would have known him. Hint: they weren't Christians.
Bart D. Ehrman (23 September 1999).
Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. Oxford University Press. p. 197.
ISBN
978-0-19-983943-8. As I've pointed out, the historian cannot say that demons—real live supernatural spirits that invade human bodies—were actually cast out of people, because to do so would be to transcend the boundaries imposed on the historian by the historical method, in that it would require a religious belief system involving a supernatural realm outside of the historian's province.
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 20:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
We should obey WP:YESPOV. Bona fide history departments have been wholly sold out to methodological naturalism. Post-Enlightenment historians think that supernatural prophecies are bunk. So, no, Ehrman is not alone in endorsing methodological naturalism. In fact, its opponents are WP:FRINGE/PS by our book.
The following are high-level (principal, methodological) WP:RS/AC claims:
(As quoted in our article.)
The problem at this article are POV-pushers who are unaware (ignoramuses) that the history has been purged of the supernatural. For these POV-pushers inside Wikipedia is Catch-22, if the source says those prophecies were genuine, it is not reliable, since it is WP:FRINGE/PS ( pseudohistory). The claim of genuine prophecies about Jesus is methodologically unsound. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 09:52, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Thymes: The above is about your edits. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
The Suffering Servant is Israel. There cannot be much doubt about that, since the Book of Isaiah makes it clear that the Servant is the people of Israel. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:26, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
"Jesus of Nazareth - if a person of this name existed - would be among the many other Jewish messiah claimants." We cannot verify such statement to the citations from Ehrman. Further, Ehrman is not a Jew, so he does not speak in the name of Judaism, he speaks as a mainstream Bible scholar and sought to render the consensus among Bible scholars. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The sources quoted by the IP do speak in the name of Judaism, that is not the question; the question is whether they amount to WP:SCHOLARSHIP and are thus reliable sources. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:20, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. Consensus here is that the proposed descriptive title is a better fit for the content. Cúchullain t/ c 16:14, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Christian messianic prophecies →
Old Testament messianic prophecies quoted in the New Testament – An earlier RM in 2012 has meanwhile been boldly overturned without discussion. "Christian" messianic prophecies is clearly misleading, since these are Old Testament prophecies with Christian interpretation. The proposed title is more factual.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.
Dreamy Jazz 🎷
talk to me |
my contributions
11:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
User:PiCo, where do you get this claim that Immanuel's mother is "standing nearby" as the prophecy is given? Alephb ( talk) 02:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
The Bible verses are listed alphabetically. Should they be shown chronologically? Some original statements appear to be time-sensitive to contemporary events, and others appear to have been based on earlier ones. Asking for a friend. Mannanan51 ( talk) 22:31, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
When Jews read the Bible they think that the Bible is full of Judaism. When Christians read the Bible they think that the Bible is full of Christianity. When a modern Bible scholar reads the Bible he would say "I don't see Judaism, I don't see Christianity, I see the 8th century BCE."
— Shaye J. D. Cohen, http://ruml.com/thehebrewbible/
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 14:54, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
@ GoogleMeNowPlease: I am baffled that you have removed two of the three sources. The argument is that the methodological naturalism of the historical method does not allow for supernatural precognition as objective historical fact. All those three sources toe this line and you either remove all three of them or none of them. Besides, there was nothing inherently anti-Christian about the article: mainline Protestants and Catholics are not principally opposed to higher criticism. Only fundamentalist Christians play a find the heresy game, wherein they claim that mainline Protestants and Catholics aren't really Christians because they do not reject higher criticism out of hand. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 11:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Since the article is OT prophecy quoted in the NT, it would apparently make more sense to take the books of the NT and discuss the OT quotes they make (because they do make them). Ideas? Achar Sva ( talk) 12:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Dear Friends, I just read the article. It is interesting and thorough in many respects (although one or two more like "the Seed of the Woman" Prophesy in Gen 3:15 etc could be added), but I have a question on the "methodological naturalism" assumption. How can we apply such a methodology which both Jews and Christians reject as if it were "neutral" or universally accepted? Jews certainly believe the Prophetic Books (whose very name implies what they are believed to be) Prophesy the Coming of the Jewish Messiah. No question about that. Christians also believe the same, and further believe that Jesus Christ is that Jewish Messiah. Atheists or Secularists are the only ones who claim methodological or even metaphysical naturalism must a priori be assumed as either a necessary methodology or objective fact in order to do historical studies into the sacred Books. The Prophets didn't intend their Books to be treated as non-prophesies. They were called Prophets because they intended to deliver prophesies. A serious study of the prophesies can lead to a reasonable conclusion that (1) the Prophetic deadlines for the Messiah to come are past, and (2) therefore, the Messiah has already come. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NishantXavier ( talk • contribs) 13:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
the Prophetic deadlines for the Messiah to come are pastis a biased and self-serving conclusion. Liberal theology agrees that history relies upon methodological naturalism. Yup, not all Christians are fundies, many denominations love historical criticism (as least as far as their divinity schools are concerned). So, yes, methodological naturalism is quasi-unanimously accepted by historians. If you don't accept it, you're not writing history, but you are writing theology. WP:MAINSTREAM Bible scholars have nothing against that, e.g.:
Well, that presupposes a belief in God. Historians can't presuppose belief in God. Historians can only work with what we've got here among us. People who are historians can be of any theological persuasion. They can be Buddhists, they can be Hindus, they can be Muslims, they can be Christians, they can be Jews, they can be agnostics, they can be atheists, and the theory behind the canons in historical research is that people of every persuasion can look at the evidence and draw the same conclusions. But Bill's hypothesis requires a person to believe in God. I don't object to that as a way of thinking. I object to that as a way of historical thinking, because it's not history, it's theology.
— Bart Ehrman, Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?
Wikipedia's primary role, as an encyclopedia, is, well, to be encyclopedic. This article repeatedly cites only skeptical sources, which can be seen as not maintaining encyclopedic neutrality. Just because the editors of this page are skeptics does not mean the world is entirely skeptical of these prophecies. Please note that we should not be looking for journalistic neutrality, and I am not voicing for that. But for this article to be adherent to its purpose, it should not be presenting only one view. One example I choose to cite is the first prophecy from Isaiah: Isaiah 7:14. The statement "Scholars agree that almah has nothing to do with virginity" is erroneous. There are several Hebrew scholars who have a different view (which also makes more logical sense than the skeptics' point, but that has nothing to do with Wikipedia) including reputable ones like Dr. Zhava Glaser, who is an associate professor of the Old Testament and surely has some influence on this topic. Her view has been linked here. [1].
This is not the only example. Almost all the prophecies have a more logical interpretation (please note that logical fallacies are independent of how much bearing they have on the world) and thus carry weight. Additionally, Christianity is the largest religion, so an argument for a skeptic-only article has no encyclopedic grounds. The skeptics' view should not be the only one highlighted here.
Please respect the view of the whole world, and not the little community of watchers and persistent editors of this page. Willcmc ( talk) 05:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
... Wikipedia, as usually, prefers its narratives and its ivory tower snobbery over any serious attempt to listen to the common man ... -- 2600:1700:9190:5DF0:F58B:D8E3:5BC7:9C99 ( talk) 01:34, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Dispute resolution won't do any good. The feedback you've gotten so far is the exact same kind of feedback that you would get in Wikipedia's dispute resolution systems. To simplify it somewhat, Wikipedia reflects the kind of scholarship that you find at leading secular universities, such as those mentioned at WP:CHOPSY: the kinds of things you would find taught at Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton, the Sorbonne, and/or Yale. If a view is considered fringe in those kinds of circles, you can bet that it will be considered fringe at Wikipedia. Now, that may not seem fair, especially if you believe the CHOPSY outlook is wrong. But that is the way Wikipedia has been since its inception, and it would be very unlikely if you could talk the Wikipedia community out of the approach that they've used since the beginning. As William Dever put it in "What Remains of the House that Albright Built?', "the overwhelming scholarly consensus today is that Moses is a mythical figure." That's from William Dever, who is on the conservative side of much of the debate currently going on within mainstream biblical studies. The great majority of mainstream scholars have abandoned the idea of Moses as a historical figure. Alephb ( talk) 00:10, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
This isn’t simply the approach of “liberal” Bible professors. It’s the way historians always date sources. If you find a letter written on paper that is obviously 300 years old or so, and the author says something about the “United States” — then you know it was written after the Revolutionary War. So too if you find an ancient document that describes the destruction of Jerusalem, then you know it was written after 70 CE. It’s not rocket science! But it’s also not “liberal.” It’s simply how history is done. If someone wants to invent other rules, they’re the ones who are begging questions!
Well, that presupposes a belief in God. Historians can't presuppose belief in God. Historians can only work with what we've got here among us. People who are historians can be of any theological persuasion. They can be Buddhists, they can be Hindus, they can be Muslims, they can be Christians, they can be Jews, they can be agnostics, they can be atheists, and the theory behind the canons in historical research is that people of every persuasion can look at the evidence and draw the same conclusions. But Bill's hypothesis requires a person to believe in God. I don't object to that as a way of thinking. I object to that as a way of historical thinking, because it's not history, it's theology.
— Bart Ehrman, Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?
quote only one side of the debatewe're not Debatepedia, we apply WP:ONEWAY and WP:GEVAL. We don't kowtow to true believers, we kowtow to Ivy Plus. If we tell it the Ivy Plus way, we have done a good job. Apologetics is quite lowbrow theology and as history it is pseudoscholarship. If one is not skeptical about the Bible, he/she isn't a historian of the Bible.
References
Isn't this an encyclopedia? The title of this article is clear. But the contents stray from the title.
The article seems to have no Bible scholars checking it. Most significantly is the failure to recognize that a historical event can be both historical and yet prophetic.
Case in point: Under Debate about prophecy fulfillment, the article states: Skeptics say that the Hosea passage clearly is talking about a historical event and therefore the passage clearly is not a prophecy.
However, by doing so these skeptics (which it sounds like the article author is biased towards) are also removing all past historical events from the possibility of prophetic foreshadowing. Similar dual-purpose events can be seen in historical events like Moses's bronze snake on a pole as described in Numbers 21:9. This event is later revealed by Jesus to serve as a prophetic event that foreshadows the method of the Messiah's work,
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up." John 3:14
The same can be said of the Book of Jonah. Whether Jonah is taken as a true historical narrative or allegory, the fact remains that in Matthew 12:40 Jesus cites Jonah's three-day entombment as both a historical event and a foreshadowing of his own crucifixion and three-day entombment. Additional examples include Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son (and ultimately receiving a substitute) as historically described in Genesis 22. Here Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son in obedience to the will of God serves as a foreshadow of the Gospel narratives as stated plainly in John 3:16, and expounded upon in Romans 3. Christians see the Messiah as a sacrificial substitute to take on God's wrath for humankind's sins. What's more long-standing Jewish ceremonies and traditions are often cited as a foreshadowing of God's plan of salvation, culminating in the work of the Messiah:
"3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”" Hebrews 10:3–7
So the fact that such a passage in Hosea or elsewhere talks about a historical event does not necessarily rule it out as prophetic in nature. Otherwise, vast portions of Jewish history and religious practices from Genesis to the return from exile and all the sacrifices for sins that took place during those times could not be considered prophetic to the final sacrificial work of the Messiah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:443:c101:c760:2de6:63fe:d49d:9b5e ( talk • contribs)
Prophecies from book of Enoch should be added. It is considered scripture by Ethiopian Orthodox Church. If we are gonna include Deuterocanonical books, we must include Enoch too. There are many Jesus prophecies in Enoch. Jude quoted from book of Enoch in Jude 14. Staraloy ( talk) 12:19, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Søren Kierkegaard does agree that choosing for Christianity cannot be based upon sufficient reason. The truth value of Christian theology is a contingent truth. Meaning science and history could never show that Christianity is true; it isn't thus objectively true.
And no, Kierkegaard was no atheist. He was more fundamentalist than your rank-and-file Bible thumper. He just wasn't stupid, and some Christians are inclined to think that not being stupid is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there is no cogent explanation of why do they consider him an atheist. I have lived to see a fundamentalist Protestant being called an atheist by fellow fundamentalists who want to win an argument through spewing claptrap memes. I mean even Conservapedia does not call him an atheist. So, of all the fake claims I have heard at Wikipedia, this one is fake in a very big way. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
became aware of the many ways in which Jesus Christ proved His claims to be the Messiah
is true believer's
WP:POV, it isn't
WP:RNPOV, as our articles should be. See also
emic and etic.
Tgeorgescu (
talk)
12:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Too much of
WP:NOTFORUM.
|
---|
@ NishantXavier: You're pushing the POV that Liberal Christianity isn't Christian at all. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:23, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Many Jews are educating us Gentiles that Jewish scholars, for centuries, have seen Isaiah 53, for e.g. as a prophesy of the Messiah. Here's a scholarly work about it on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Third-Chapter-Isaiah-according-interpreters/dp/1590459857 A website: "Messianic Jewish talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts those early views:3 [Footnote: 3. Frydland, Rachmiel, ISSUES: A Messianic Jewish Perspective, Vol. 2:5, p. 2] Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God's Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words: Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum)." https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v13-n06/whos-the-subject-of-isaiah-53-you-decide/ Jews regard the OT writers as real Prophets. NishantXavier ( talk) 11:24, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Do you want to speak theology instead of history? Fine: it never was a Catholic prophecy (historically it was employed to say all sorts of bad things about the Catholic Church), mainline Protestants and Evangelicals see that prophecy as largely debunked, for the Eastern Orthodox it is a quarrel among heretics. It is only proclaimed by the Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses (among the larger denominations). So, you speak for tiny minorities, both in history as an academic field and in theology. That's why
WP:FRINGE applies to you claims. The
Prophecy of Seventy Weeks is seen as debunked by the overwhelming majority of historians and theologians, and there remain just tiny hold outs of true believers who still accept it as true belief.
References
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Who cares about the Jesus Seminar? The Jesus Seminar is WP:FRINGE by design. And they are certainly not representative for mainstream Bible scholarship. At the other extreme, equally fringe is biblical literalism. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:05, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Perseverenceoftruth: WP:BLOGS are not WP:RS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 23:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Perseverenceoftruth: We don't discuss the Jesus Seminar in this article. Jesus Seminar is a red herring.
Sometimes in the mainstream academia, dispute is over and a side has lost the dispute. According to Richard Carrier, is the idea that apologetics is actually specifically designed to avoid discovering the truth about things it's designed to specifically justify things you want to believe
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It is a WP:FRINGE view that one can prove historically that Jesus is the Messiah. You may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but there is no way to know that according to the historical method. Maintaining otherwise is pseudohistory. You may ask any Christian historian worth their salt and they will confirm this to be true. Even if Jesus was the Messiah in the Absolute Reality, there is no way to prove it historically. The epistemology of history does not allow historians to draw such conclusions. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:07, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
About Christianity maintains that there is evidence Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecies
: no, it doesn't, unless you conflate uneducated Christianity with fundamentalist Christianity and ignore there are educated liberal Christians who don't buy into fundamentalist dogmas. So, yes, educated liberal Christians believe Christ is the Lord, but they don't play fast and loose with the epistemology of history in order to draw unsupported conclusions.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
21:27, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
I haven't read the entire article, just the intro and outro, but I was struck by something that stood out odd to me:
"Old Testament prophecies about Jesus are either not thought to be prophecies by critical scholars (the verses make no claim of predicting anything) or do not explicitly refer to the Messiah"
Yet the article on Messiah says:
"Messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, however, and the concept of 'the' Messiah as a single individual is a strictly post-Biblical tradition as it is not found in the Old Testament".
So I would expect verses aren't explicitly referring to the Messiah if the Messiah is never explicitly referenced anywhere in the Old Testament. That kind of argument is misleading, if not a bit fallacious. If I say "if it snows tomorrow then the sky will turn purple" and it doesn't snow tomorrow, then you can't say that I was "disproven".
The audience of Jesus and the Apostles was Second Temple Judaism, so the interpretation of prophesies should be understood in that cultural context (and not exclusively modern critical reading). Apocalypticism had a very strong influence to Jews of the first century, and they looked to various Old Testament passages as foreshadowing the coming of an end-times Messiah. So when Christian theologians examines Messianic prophesies, they don't tend to ask "does this verse refer to the Messiah in its original context?", but rather they consider "did the audience of Jesus and his apostles consider this verse referring to the Messiah?". As an illustrative example, modern scholars interpret the Suffering Servant as referring to the Nation of Israel itself, but Jewish Apocalypticism in the first century did interpret it as a Messianic prophesy.
At best, ignoring that cultural context is missing valuable information that is critically relevant to the article. At worst, it is a misleading argument that gives the impression that these verses were never considered to be Messianic prophesies, which is certainly not true.
In fact, there are few if any instances of Messianic prophesies (as interpreted by Second Temple Judaism) that the New Testament doesn't address in some way. Second Temple Judaism did believe that the Messiah would re-establish a Jewish Kingdom and overthrow the Romans, and the lack of this happening was an argument used by Jews in Early Christianity. The New Testament does address this, but re-interprets this as referring metaphorically to the Kingdom of Heaven. This kind of debate is severely lacking from the article, since it gives the impression that the Old Testament has no Messianic prophesies (which may be the case for modern scholars, but not for Jewish teachers in Jesus' day).
Furthermore, the article only discusses interpretation of the Old Testament by modern scholars, and doesn't examine how these prophesies influenced the development of Christianity or how they were interpreted by Early Christian writers. Historical method doesn't delve into the supernatural or make theological speculation, so really the concept of modern scholars examining the fulfillment of Messianic prophesies is somewhat oxymoronic. As Messianic Prophesies are a debate of religion, then the article should examine the different religious perspectives, which is a debate irrelevant to a secular historian.
It would be cool if this article listed out Messianic prophesies as understood by Second Temple or other eras of Judaism, and discusses how this is addressed or not addressed by the New Testament or Christian theologians. Note that Messianic prophecies redirects to this article, even in Jewish-specific topics. Rather than exhaustively discussing relevant information on the topic, it seems this article was written for the purpose of debunking Christian apologetics. LutherVinci ( talk) 16:14, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Liberty University is a university in name only. It requires "compatibility with a young-earth creationist philosophy" for staff they recruit to their biology department. That does not mean that everything every member of the university does is bogus, but it does mean that their opinions have to be taken with a pillar of salt, and that a-priori, their weight in the academic debate is marginal at best. I can find a total of two publications for Chatraw on Google Scholar, none of which has been cited even once. He lists a few more publications on his web page, but they are all in explicitly evangelical walled garden journals. It's not a significant contribution to mainstream academic opinion. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 15:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
It’s clear to see the bias in this article. This almost reads like an opinion editorial. 24.96.95.45 ( talk) 11:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
You should generally assume that Wikipedia has the same view of what is WP:SCHOLARSHIP as https://www.britannica.com/topic/biblical-literature/Daniel#ref597857 and https://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/oeuvre/livre_de_Daniel/115594 . Wikipedia isn't their dumber sister.
This also applies to https://iranicaonline.org/articles/darius-ii and https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/philosophy-and-religion/biblical-proper-names-biographies/darius-mede . Belief in a real Darius the Mede is restricted to religious fanatics and ignoramuses.
The difference is that Britannica, Larousse, Iranica and Judaica do not have talk pages wherein random visitors complain those encyclopedias are biased.
Okay, now I had no longer quoted Ehrman or any liberal scholar. I have quoted a professor from Moody Bible Institute (Wheaton is a liberal college compared to MBI) and a faithful Mormon academic. tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Patterns of evidence the Moses controversy looks at a debate entering today's college classrooms the Moses controversy is really the question of did Moses write the first books of the Bible and from a lot of Christians it's not a controversy at all but as soon as you send your son or daughter off to college or university they're gonna hear a different story
@ TeenAngels1234: Farrell Till was a pastor, so he had to study theology for it. Later, he converted to atheism and became a notable spokesman for atheists. He even has his own Wikipedia article: Farrell Till. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
I made some edits today to I add more nuance to the text but these were removed without discussion or debate. Please advise? BibleWatchman ( talk) 18:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
tgeorgescu July 30, 2021 at 3:34 pm - Reply
Quote: This isn’t simply the approach of “liberal” Bible professors. It’s the way historians always date sources. If you find a letter written on paper that is obviously 300 years old or so, and the author says something about the “United States” — then you know it was written after the Revolutionary War. So too if you find an ancient document that describes the destruction of Jerusalem, then you know it was written after 70 CE. It’s not rocket science! But it’s also not “liberal.” It’s simply how history is done. If someone wants to invent other rules, they’re the ones who are begging questions!
Can I receive a formal confirmation that you have actually written this? It has been lost somewhere in comments and I cannot find it again. It is important because I quoted it inside Wikipedia and needs a source.
BDEhrman
BDEhrman July 31, 2021 at 7:35 am - Reply
The first part sounds like something I would have said. The second part not so much. BUt I sometimes do say things that are phrased more strongly than I would typically phrase them (unless it’s over drinks). Are you quoting this from one of my comments? Then yes, that’s what I said. If I did, I was stressing the point “describes.” THat is, if you have an account that refers in some detail to airplanes striking the Twin Towers, then the account was certainly written after 9/11, even if it is phrased as a prophecy.
I have reverted vandalism. Most Christians are or would count themselves in the Liberal Christianity camp if they would think it through. Liberal Christianity has absolutely no problem with this article. Wikipedia is indeed biased for WP:BESTSOURCES.
Note that I have WP:CITEd a professor from the Moody Bible Institute ("Bible is our middle name"), who sees the problem only too well.
So, no, Wikipedia isn't anti-Christian. But it isn't WP:CENSORED for the protection of the sensibilities of fundamentalist Christians.
In light of the epistemology of history, our article makes perfect sense: the authors of the Old Testament could not have known anything about Jesus of Nazareth, since they lived many centuries before him. If your divinity school isn't fundamentalist or evangelical, its professors will readily admit this. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)