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Most of this article is POV. The first paragraph is OK, but needs rewritten and should be under a subsection called Methods of the Jesus Seminar. The rest of the article is clearly POV. I will make some changes unless there are objections. If the original author has any comments they are welcomed.-- JPotter 17:47, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have made all the editing necessary for the article to be more complete and no longer POV. Obvsiously, more work can be done. 24.202.135.211 15:35, 07 Mar 2004
Still looks pretty POV to me... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caswin ( talk • contribs) 23:57, 20 November 2004 [1]
Hi, I moved the description of the voting system to the bottom of the page (surely the objectives of the seminar are more important than it's methods?) I also slightly re-worded it to try and make it easier to understand. SeanT 20:21, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
Deleted "This historical approach to the gospels is common among historians but very controversial in New Testament studies" as I felt this was POV. If there is a reliable source for this quote please provide, and accept my apologies, otherwise I think it should stay out. Mercury543210 22:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is already tagged POV, there is an unregistered user to is adding POV material and reverting NPOV edits. The edits are POV, they reflect a singlular and not very notable Jesus Seminar critic. I edited the paragraph to a more neutral point of view, but the unregistered user reverted my edits back to the biased version. There are a great many of conservative scholars who disagree with the Jesus Seminar, for obvious reasons, I see no reason to begin listing them. The work of Allison adds nothing notable to the article and is POV. -- JPotter 02:21, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
It is certainly legitimate in any article to list reasons why many scholars question the validity of the Jesus Seminar. To leave the section as is...Conservative scholars have questioned the intent and conclusions of the Jesus Seminar...is misleading. Allison, for instance, is no conservative (as his books on the Q source and Matthew demonstrate), and he utilizes many of the same tools of the Seminar. His book, which was cited in a previous version of the page, has been well received even by members of the Jesus Seminar, including Marcus Borg. So, many scholars have a problem with the Seminar...conservative and otherwise. This is not in dispute even by Seminar members...why be afraid to have it posted online?
Also, to simply state that the intent and conclusions of the Seminar are problematic to some scholars without mentioning even one of those potential problems is hardly "non-point of view". Certainly, it is fair to mention what some of those problems might be...it would also be fair to mention how the members of the Seminar have responded to that criticism.
I speak as someone who values the work of the Seminar, not as an opponent. I simply feel that we need to be fair to all sides of the argument, and not only the Seminar.
What is needed are some secular critics' soureces. Sweetfreek 04:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Finally, the Jesus Seminar is critized with the same reasoning applied to many other biblical textual critics, namely that they fail to address the validity and relation of the fathers of the church, or other early Christian writings.
I don't understand what this sentence means. -- Goethean 01:25, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For reference, here are the red actions of Jesus: Birth: parts of Mt1:18-25; Beelzebul: Lk11:15-17; Baptized by John: Mk1:1-11; Good news: Mk1:14-16; Dining with sinners: Mk2:15-17; Herod beheads John: Mk6:14-29; Crucifixion: core event but not accurately recorded; 1st list of appearances: 1Cor15:3-5;
Crossan alone should not be attributed with developing the methodology outlined in the introduction to The Five Gospels. And what is the sources for saying that the Jesus Seminar makes no claims about its methodology being valid? I know Mahlon H. Smith, for example, a member of the Seminar, would disagree with that statement. I am editing the first line (about Crossan developing the methodology) in that paragraph and deleting the second. -- Peter Kirby 08:11, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Is it necessary to list the ISBN's and books of each of the Seminar's critics in the text of the article? I'd like to move it to a See Also at the end, if there are no objections. Deadsalmon 1:23, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
There need to be fewer anti-Jesus Seminar sources, or an equal number of pro sources. Obviously this Article is NOT neutral.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to include as well some of the more notable votes to class things as grey or (especially) black. Atm the liberalism/revisionism of much of the seminar's work doesn't shine through - this is important for understanding why there are so many conservative critics. Thomas Ash 14:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
As this article currently stands, it leads the reader to assume that the fiercest criticism of the Jesus Seminar comes from Fundamentalist circles. The late Raymond E. Brown is likewise critical of this group & he is hardly a Fundamentalist Christian. He also lists a number of tenured professors who have criticized their publications, including A. Culpepper (Baylor), L.E. Keck (Yale), & J.P.Meier (Catholic University). (I must admit that my own exposure to this group has been thru the works of Burton Mack, whose books I found seriously flawed in logical argument, & more interested in narrating his version of "what happened" than offering his reasoning why his version is correct.) -- llywrch 05:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
This phrase "Congratulations, Poor!" is a quote from the verse listing in the book's appendix. It is adapted from the the Scholar's Version translation by the Jesus Seminar of Luke 6:20: "Congratulations, you poor!". They use the word "congratulations" instead of the more familiar "blessed" because (according to them) the Latin derived "blessed" is an archaic way of saying that Jesus was declaring these people to be especially favored by God. -- Blainster 11:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article is not really good at outlining what really differentiates the Jesus Seminar from earlier attempts to find "the historical Jesus" - in fact, it doesn't seem to do much to inspire understanding that there were earlier attempts to find "the historical Jesus." The Jesus Seminar is not terribly unique for seeing Jesus as a man, and not the Son of God, or for seeing the Gospels as problematic sources which contain much that was added later. The real thing which the Jesus Seminar did is that it presents a "de-eschatologized Jesus" - that is to say, their historical Jesus was not concerned with eschatology or the apocalypse. This pretty directly contradicts the previous scholarly consensus (going back to Schweitzer, and so forth) of Jesus's actual teachings as having been largely eschatological. This needs to be made clear, because otherwise the whole thing barely makes any sense. john k 21:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It was about taking into account the existance of the Gospel of Thomas Clinkophonist 21:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I made a minor edit by wikifying Gregory A. Boyd. Also I think the percentage of 18% regarding Jesus' saying is a bit off. Here is a quote that I have from Lee Strobel's book The Case For Christ;
In his endnote, Lee Strobel cites Gregory A. Boyd, Jesus under Seige, p. 88. Can anyone confirm what if this is correct by going back to the original Jesus Seminar book? If Strobel is correct, does that change the long list of quotes and percentages we have in the article. Does anyone else think that it may be too much to have that whole list there if the Jesus Seminar only attributes 2% of the sayings to Jesus?-- Derek Spalla 03:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I think there are other parts of the article that can be cleaned up too. Such as creating a list of supports, critics and list the books with ISBN numbers in a separate section. To me, having the ISBN numbers in the text of the article makes it very difficult to read. One of the other articles I watch has done this very nicely. Take a look at Emerging Church or Rob Bell for examples of what I am talking about.-- Derek Spalla 03:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says that voting was used to determine the original "Bible Canon", a statement which I believe to be categorically false (not being an expert, but having some study on the subject). I think I'll delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.139.190 ( talk • contribs)
The Biblical canon was merely re-affirmed by the Council of Trent; it had been uniformly established twelve hundred years earlier, by the Easter Letter of Athanasius. 156.34.69.1 19:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Canon of the New Testament:
The key feature of the Jesus Seminar's method is reflected in their pillar five, the rejection of eschatology: "The liberation of the non-eschatological Jesus of the aphorisms and parables from Schweitzer's eschatological Jesus is the fifth pillar of contemporary scholarship".
This explains the oppposition of Dale Allison, author of "Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet" who affirms Schweitzer's work. It probably also accounts for the rejection of 82% of the sayings. see B.A.Pearson [2] T.Hume 04:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The Seminar themselves set out the 7 pillars that underpin their work: 6 of these are fairly non controversial principals of any historical research, one pillar (the rejection of eschatology) sets the direction of the research. It's little wonder:"Schweitzer saw Jesus' ethic as only an "interim ethic" (a way of life good only for the brief period before the cataclysmic end, the eschaton). As such he found it no longer relevant or valid. Acting on his own conclusion, in 1913 Schweitzer abandoned a brilliant career in theology, turned to medicine, and went out to Africa where he founded the famous hospital at Lambaréné out of respect for all forms of life." [3] Rejection of eschatology leads to "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" (Robert M Price) -- T.Hume 23:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The sayings section is pretty terrible. These lists don't help the reader see the vision of Jesus that the seminar is presenting or the premises on which the seminar accepted or rejected sayings. I'm working up to adding a subsection under "sayings" that uses typical red, pink, gray, and black sayings to show the Seminar's POV. I don't want to delete these long lists of red and pink sayings, but they're pretty long and not that informative. Jonathan Tweet 14:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
You can move them around, but the lists should stay. They may appear uninformative, however, this is how the Seminar proceeded, first it voted on verses, then it considered what the verses meant, rather than drawing a conclusion first and then finding the verses that matched the conclusion. 75.0.12.173 06:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
In the section, "Overall reliability of the five gospels", the article refers to the Jesus Seminar as considering five Gospels. In most copies of the New Testament, there are only four books identified as gospels: what is the fifth one they refer to? The Q document? The Gospel of Thomas? -- llywrch 00:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
An edit (weasel-worded) http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jesus_Seminar&diff=prev&oldid=93202170 was added "Some Christians go so far as to depict the Jesus Seminar as a tool of Satan, meant to undermine Biblical beliefs. [1]" . Who are these people and are they in the same league as the "two hundred academic New Testament scholars" (thats a whole lot of PhDs). I'm tagging it as weasel. Ttiotsw 20:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a complete Scholars Version translation of the entire Bible available somewhere? -- Loremaster 15:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Complete Gospels includes the Five Gospels and other Gospels the seminar deemed possibly relevant. 75.15.198.7 22:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Some info here: [5]
There's a lot of facts and numbers throughout this article without citation. I thought I would make a mention here before arbitrarily slapping on an unreferenced tag since this page seems reasonably active. Vassyana 11:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Is this the one of "Bob Jones University" (in)fame?
Just checking... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.134.46 ( talk • contribs) 22:40, February 24, 2007
There's a discussion about whether the JS qualifies as a reliable source ( WP:RS) on Talk:Lazarus and Dives. Jonathan Tweet 20:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I happened to drop in at this page, and more or less at random followed one link. This was the Dutch text supposed to be a source for the statement
Now, I'm not expert in Dutch. However, as well as I understand
Paul Verhoeven schrijft boek over Jezus, it simply does not say that.
First of all, it is not an actual press release, but slightly similar. It is a brief article on a news site(?) named Katholiek Nederland, and it also seem to have some pages with information on the Roman Catholioic Church activities in the Netherlands. Most news are related to religeous issues of one or another sort. The article in the link indeed does seem to be based on or at least prompted by a press releaseabout a planned book by Paul Verhoeven; but it is unclear whether part of the article is based on other sources than the book intressents or general knowledge. It is adorned with a link to the Jesus seminar web page.
The article is not particulary critical. It states that Paul Verhoeven is the only (?'enige') non-theologian in the Jesus seminar. (I suspect that this is wrong.) However, according to the article the representant of the publisher claims that it is a truly scientific book, by a man who really knows the subject (?'weet echt waar hij het over heeft'). The article does not gainsay this, but goes on to describe a film project about the historical Jesus, and quotes Paul Verhoeven as respecting the importance Jesus has as basis of the western civilisation and for many people to-day.
I cannot find anything about 'bible knowledge'. The only thing even remotely similar is the statement 'as a fact' that Paul Verhoeven isn't a theologian. In my vocabulary, 'education in the Bible' is not synonymous with 'being a theologian'. The author of the article seems to share this view, since (s)he presents 'the claim' that Verhoeven knows his subject without any hint of protest.
Summing up the reference fairly, it is a notice from a news service connected to the Dutch Catholic Church, based on a press release about a forthcoming book about Jesus by Paul Verhoeven; and it states that while he is not a theologian, he does know the subject well enough to write a serious scientific book about it. This could not reasonably be summed up as Paul Verhoeven does not have any education in the Bible.. That may be verifiable, but not by this source..
Now, this was only one reference; and besides it is in a small language not too many of us know vell. However, I think you should have someone 'neutral' but Dutch-speaking person check over whether my reading of this text is correct; and if it is, you probably ocught to check the other references as well. I really hope that my single 'test' wasn't typical.
Best wishes, JoergenB 07:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
One of the topics is the seminar's criteria for what makes a Jesus quote authentic or inauthentic. (For example, is it catchy, is it ironic, etc.) Does anyone know how they arrived at these criteria? Perhaps I'm the only one, but that sections seems to feel incomplete without understanding how they arrived at these criteria.
This is just my personal opinion, as well as my personal desire to know how they arrived at these criteria. Feel free to weigh in. 68.116.143.113 06:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I bulked up the Authentic section as requested. I can do the same for Inauthentic, but first, any comments on what I've done so far? I think this is a lot better because it gives the reader the chance to get into the fellows' heads better. Jonathan Tweet 02:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This material looks a little bogus.
Not all of the Seven pillars of Scholarly wisdom are universally accepted, with pillars one and five being rejected outright by a large portion of Biblical Scholars.45:00-46:30The Five Gospels says that the non-apocalyptic view gained ground in the 1970s and 1980s when research into Jesus shifted out of religious environments and into secular academia. The apocalyptic elements attributed to Jesus, according to The Five Gospels, come from John the Baptist and the early Christian community.Media:Example.ogg
Differentiating between historical Jesus and Jesus of faith (pillar one) isn't controversial, and this section says it is. Historians differentiate and most Christians don't, but there's precious little controversy either within the field of history or within Christianity. Let's talk about whether the pillars are controversial in the JS's own field: historical Jesus. Jonathan Tweet 02:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
An editor added "fact" tags to the seven pillars section even though there's a reference for the statements. Since I added the reference and the new information, I don't want to be the one to remove the fact tags (unnecessary in my view). Anyone else interested in looking the section over? Jonathan Tweet 17:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add a section that shows how the fellows analyzed text: multiple attestation, irony, Christian additions, and voting. The Beatitudes work pretty well here, as they demonstrate how the Fellows distinguish among the beatitudes, rating three up, three or four down, and one neutral (or something like that). I know someone will object that it's OR because that's what they say when I try to make things really clear, so I thought I'd draw fire here on the talk page before proceeding. Comments? Jonathan Tweet 02:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a section on the beatitudes. Jonathan Tweet 22:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any objection to pushing the article to Peer review - a step that should always be taken before the Featured Articles Candidacy step? -- Loremaster 22:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I imagine we need to have a conversation about how controversial the JS is in which circles. I gave the lead my shot at a balanced take on it. Jonathan Tweet 04:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Does the "Scholars Version" constitute a "bible"? I ask because none of Wikipedia's various articles on bibles mention it:
etc. 151.197.28.239 04:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the comment claiming that the commons scholarly opinion rejects the Gospel of John as reliable. This is simply not true, and the reference for this statement comes from a single source. I can give 50 that disagree with the Catholic source cited. Simply stated, the rejection of John is not at all agreed upon. Saying as much is against the unbiased POV. Please quit replacing it. If you're a skeptic and want to butter the Jesus Seminar up, that's one thing, but don't do so using a single source that contradicts plenty of others. For instance, Interpreting the Gospel of John by Gary Burge makes the opposite claim of the Catholics. Also, the respected D.A. Carson, in his Historical Tradition in the Fourth Gospel, has much to say on the issue. Simply stated, the claim of scholarly rejection is unfounded, and has no place in an unbiased Wikipedia article. 24.20.48.231 17:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't care for the header of "Criticism of the Jesus Seminar" in an arcticle that sthrives for Featured Article status and think it should be retitled or removed if possible. If such sections contain both the criticism and counter arguments (which they should for a high quality article), then such should not be labeled as criticism. Each section can stand on its own as a section of Jesus Seminar with integrated criticism and rebuttal. Such a section of arguments might have a title to group them but perhaps a better term could be used then "criticism" as this automaticly presents a POV. See Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure, Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure, and Wikipedia:Criticism. As far as the list of critics (and I'm speaking without knowing them and without really reading through the material so forgive me if I off base), if they are significant enough to be mentioned here, then they should probably have their own article, where their criticism and the rebuttal of the topic can be expanded and linked back to the main article. If many critics make the same argument, then such is justified in having a section in this article with possible reference to the critics that make the argument. See WP:WEIGHT. -- Loremaster 13:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Loremaster, I don't understand why you think it's important to have a wikilink to Iconoclasm in the lead-in to this article. The rest of the sentence (". . . he often turned common-sense ideas upside down, confounding the expectations of his audience") seems to make the point pretty clearly on its own. The article the link goes to discusses the destruction of physical icons and other religious images - not something that Jesus is reported to have done (unless you count the cleansing of the temple, but that was targeted against commerce and doesn't seem have had anything to do with religious images). I certainly understand how someone could refer to Jesus as an "iconoclast," because he did challenge people's established religious beliefs, but sending people to the article on Iconoclast doesn't seem like it would help much, because it's just a redirect page (albeit with the one-line definition "[o]ne who attacks cherished beliefs") and sending them to the article on Iconoclasm seems misleading, because it could give the impression that Jesus went around smashing up statues and frescoes. I don't know that it would be incorrect to simply add the one-line definition into the text ("Jesus was an iconoclast, challenging many of his hearers' cherished beliefs"), but I'm not sure it adds much to what's already there. EastTN ( talk) 21:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I have replaced the word "determine" with the phrase "decide their collective view of" - because their voting cannot, of course, change the historicity of events (unless you are an ultra post-modernist - which the JS are not, as I understand it). Springnuts ( talk) 21:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks like there's been some back and forth recently on how the article should characterize the critics of the Jesus Seminar. The current text says:
We don't have any similar characterization of the theological view of members of the Seminar or scholars who agree with them. The closest we come is in the criticism section, where we quote Craig as saying that the seminar members don't represent a consensus among New Testament scholars, and then say:
In the first case we are, as editors, characterizing the critics as conservatives. If I'm not mistaken, none of the references given makes that claim - all of the footnotes point to works by the scholars who're criticizing the Seminar's analysis, not third-party sources that survey the critics and conclude that they are predominantly conservatives. In the second case we're reporting a claim made by critics, and qualifying the characterization by placing the term "liberal" in quotation marks.
This seems to create at least the appearance that we are, as editors, labeling one side while questioning any labeling suggested for the other side. This could be read to suggest that we believe the critics represent a minority at one end of the ideological spectrum, while the Seminar itself represents a broad consensus across the rest of the ideological spectrum. If that's true, we should say so - but it would be a very strong claim, and we need to find reliable sources to document it. EastTN ( talk) 22:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard that only "conservatives" question the Jesus Seminar - the Jesus seminar is at one end of the spectrum (besides the radical fringe that denies the historical existence of Jesus entirely). My understanding is that many non-conservative scholars do not accept the Jesus Seminar's inclusion. Anyone, for instance, who views Jesus's mission as largely apocalyptic would be unsupportive of the Jesus Seminar, and that would include many who could not by any reasonable standard be viewed as "conservative." But it's been years since I've looked into this very closely, so I couldn't say for sure. john k ( talk) 05:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
would "travelling" be a better word than "itinerant" as travelling looks simpler? K61824 ( talk) 21:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I know "The Historical Jesus For Dummies" a first glance seems like a strange source. However the Catherine M. Murphy is knowledgeable and writes from a NPOV. Are there any points specific points that cause you concern? Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
I believe this article may well be rather clearly slanted toward the thinking of the Jesus Seminar intself. Here are a few examples:
There is also the matter of their unique take on the Gospels, including their inclusion of the Gospel of Thomas in the groups' The Five Gospels, despite the fact that that Gospel had been known for about 50 years prior to publication and been fairly universally counted as a Gnostic text written centuries later. This does not seem to be mentioned in the article at all.
Nor, unfortunately, is there any clear mention of the other works which have been written in response to the group, often very critical of their methodologies and outcomes. I would think that NPOV would require the inclusion of same. John Carter ( talk) 22:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
While what is above is only one possibility, I think that it would cover all the bases. John Carter ( talk) 21:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I read reports that the group is now headquartered at some college in Oregon. Particularly after what seems to have been the death of the group's founder, its status would, presumably, be of interest to editors and be something they would think to update. I did print out a copy of the newspaper report on the subject, but, unfortunately, cannot find it in the reports in front of me. John Carter ( talk) 21:48, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I have again removed an enormous amount of material that presents in excruciating detail the results of the seminar. It's sourced--but it's sourced to the official seminar publication (primary) and thus the notability of the information is in doubt (I don't doubt the veracity, of course). 17k of results, that's simply too much: as I said before, a summary is fine, but this is was too much. Drmies ( talk) 21:53, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
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Under the heading "Search for the historical Jesus", the final sentence reads, "The method and conclusions of the Jesus Seminar have come under harsh criticism by some [quantify] biblical scholars, historians, and clergy for a variety of reasons."
Given the number of scholars listed in the section "Criticism from scholars", I think it would be accurate to use the word "numerous" in place of "some". I will make that change, to provide quantification as requested. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 01:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
The Wikipedia has a whole section which discusses the St. John Fragment. It is: Rylands Library Papyrus P52
It is a fragment of St. John's Gospel which has been dated to between 90 AD and 120 AD. It is the earliest archaeological artifact which is of a piece of an early copy of one of the Gospels (namely, St. John's Gospel).
The St. John Fragment, being in Codex Form, would have to have been first penned by St. John, then copied and ultimately made into a Codex, and then it would have to have found its way to Egypt. This pushes the original writing of the Gospel to, about, 90 AD +/-.
The St. John Fragment shows that the Jesus Seminar has no basis in fact since the belief in the Divine Nature of Jesus clearly was established early in the Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettaripepc ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
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Most of this article is POV. The first paragraph is OK, but needs rewritten and should be under a subsection called Methods of the Jesus Seminar. The rest of the article is clearly POV. I will make some changes unless there are objections. If the original author has any comments they are welcomed.-- JPotter 17:47, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have made all the editing necessary for the article to be more complete and no longer POV. Obvsiously, more work can be done. 24.202.135.211 15:35, 07 Mar 2004
Still looks pretty POV to me... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caswin ( talk • contribs) 23:57, 20 November 2004 [1]
Hi, I moved the description of the voting system to the bottom of the page (surely the objectives of the seminar are more important than it's methods?) I also slightly re-worded it to try and make it easier to understand. SeanT 20:21, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
Deleted "This historical approach to the gospels is common among historians but very controversial in New Testament studies" as I felt this was POV. If there is a reliable source for this quote please provide, and accept my apologies, otherwise I think it should stay out. Mercury543210 22:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is already tagged POV, there is an unregistered user to is adding POV material and reverting NPOV edits. The edits are POV, they reflect a singlular and not very notable Jesus Seminar critic. I edited the paragraph to a more neutral point of view, but the unregistered user reverted my edits back to the biased version. There are a great many of conservative scholars who disagree with the Jesus Seminar, for obvious reasons, I see no reason to begin listing them. The work of Allison adds nothing notable to the article and is POV. -- JPotter 02:21, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
It is certainly legitimate in any article to list reasons why many scholars question the validity of the Jesus Seminar. To leave the section as is...Conservative scholars have questioned the intent and conclusions of the Jesus Seminar...is misleading. Allison, for instance, is no conservative (as his books on the Q source and Matthew demonstrate), and he utilizes many of the same tools of the Seminar. His book, which was cited in a previous version of the page, has been well received even by members of the Jesus Seminar, including Marcus Borg. So, many scholars have a problem with the Seminar...conservative and otherwise. This is not in dispute even by Seminar members...why be afraid to have it posted online?
Also, to simply state that the intent and conclusions of the Seminar are problematic to some scholars without mentioning even one of those potential problems is hardly "non-point of view". Certainly, it is fair to mention what some of those problems might be...it would also be fair to mention how the members of the Seminar have responded to that criticism.
I speak as someone who values the work of the Seminar, not as an opponent. I simply feel that we need to be fair to all sides of the argument, and not only the Seminar.
What is needed are some secular critics' soureces. Sweetfreek 04:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Finally, the Jesus Seminar is critized with the same reasoning applied to many other biblical textual critics, namely that they fail to address the validity and relation of the fathers of the church, or other early Christian writings.
I don't understand what this sentence means. -- Goethean 01:25, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For reference, here are the red actions of Jesus: Birth: parts of Mt1:18-25; Beelzebul: Lk11:15-17; Baptized by John: Mk1:1-11; Good news: Mk1:14-16; Dining with sinners: Mk2:15-17; Herod beheads John: Mk6:14-29; Crucifixion: core event but not accurately recorded; 1st list of appearances: 1Cor15:3-5;
Crossan alone should not be attributed with developing the methodology outlined in the introduction to The Five Gospels. And what is the sources for saying that the Jesus Seminar makes no claims about its methodology being valid? I know Mahlon H. Smith, for example, a member of the Seminar, would disagree with that statement. I am editing the first line (about Crossan developing the methodology) in that paragraph and deleting the second. -- Peter Kirby 08:11, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Is it necessary to list the ISBN's and books of each of the Seminar's critics in the text of the article? I'd like to move it to a See Also at the end, if there are no objections. Deadsalmon 1:23, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
There need to be fewer anti-Jesus Seminar sources, or an equal number of pro sources. Obviously this Article is NOT neutral.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to include as well some of the more notable votes to class things as grey or (especially) black. Atm the liberalism/revisionism of much of the seminar's work doesn't shine through - this is important for understanding why there are so many conservative critics. Thomas Ash 14:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
As this article currently stands, it leads the reader to assume that the fiercest criticism of the Jesus Seminar comes from Fundamentalist circles. The late Raymond E. Brown is likewise critical of this group & he is hardly a Fundamentalist Christian. He also lists a number of tenured professors who have criticized their publications, including A. Culpepper (Baylor), L.E. Keck (Yale), & J.P.Meier (Catholic University). (I must admit that my own exposure to this group has been thru the works of Burton Mack, whose books I found seriously flawed in logical argument, & more interested in narrating his version of "what happened" than offering his reasoning why his version is correct.) -- llywrch 05:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
This phrase "Congratulations, Poor!" is a quote from the verse listing in the book's appendix. It is adapted from the the Scholar's Version translation by the Jesus Seminar of Luke 6:20: "Congratulations, you poor!". They use the word "congratulations" instead of the more familiar "blessed" because (according to them) the Latin derived "blessed" is an archaic way of saying that Jesus was declaring these people to be especially favored by God. -- Blainster 11:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article is not really good at outlining what really differentiates the Jesus Seminar from earlier attempts to find "the historical Jesus" - in fact, it doesn't seem to do much to inspire understanding that there were earlier attempts to find "the historical Jesus." The Jesus Seminar is not terribly unique for seeing Jesus as a man, and not the Son of God, or for seeing the Gospels as problematic sources which contain much that was added later. The real thing which the Jesus Seminar did is that it presents a "de-eschatologized Jesus" - that is to say, their historical Jesus was not concerned with eschatology or the apocalypse. This pretty directly contradicts the previous scholarly consensus (going back to Schweitzer, and so forth) of Jesus's actual teachings as having been largely eschatological. This needs to be made clear, because otherwise the whole thing barely makes any sense. john k 21:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It was about taking into account the existance of the Gospel of Thomas Clinkophonist 21:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I made a minor edit by wikifying Gregory A. Boyd. Also I think the percentage of 18% regarding Jesus' saying is a bit off. Here is a quote that I have from Lee Strobel's book The Case For Christ;
In his endnote, Lee Strobel cites Gregory A. Boyd, Jesus under Seige, p. 88. Can anyone confirm what if this is correct by going back to the original Jesus Seminar book? If Strobel is correct, does that change the long list of quotes and percentages we have in the article. Does anyone else think that it may be too much to have that whole list there if the Jesus Seminar only attributes 2% of the sayings to Jesus?-- Derek Spalla 03:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I think there are other parts of the article that can be cleaned up too. Such as creating a list of supports, critics and list the books with ISBN numbers in a separate section. To me, having the ISBN numbers in the text of the article makes it very difficult to read. One of the other articles I watch has done this very nicely. Take a look at Emerging Church or Rob Bell for examples of what I am talking about.-- Derek Spalla 03:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says that voting was used to determine the original "Bible Canon", a statement which I believe to be categorically false (not being an expert, but having some study on the subject). I think I'll delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.139.190 ( talk • contribs)
The Biblical canon was merely re-affirmed by the Council of Trent; it had been uniformly established twelve hundred years earlier, by the Easter Letter of Athanasius. 156.34.69.1 19:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Canon of the New Testament:
The key feature of the Jesus Seminar's method is reflected in their pillar five, the rejection of eschatology: "The liberation of the non-eschatological Jesus of the aphorisms and parables from Schweitzer's eschatological Jesus is the fifth pillar of contemporary scholarship".
This explains the oppposition of Dale Allison, author of "Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet" who affirms Schweitzer's work. It probably also accounts for the rejection of 82% of the sayings. see B.A.Pearson [2] T.Hume 04:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The Seminar themselves set out the 7 pillars that underpin their work: 6 of these are fairly non controversial principals of any historical research, one pillar (the rejection of eschatology) sets the direction of the research. It's little wonder:"Schweitzer saw Jesus' ethic as only an "interim ethic" (a way of life good only for the brief period before the cataclysmic end, the eschaton). As such he found it no longer relevant or valid. Acting on his own conclusion, in 1913 Schweitzer abandoned a brilliant career in theology, turned to medicine, and went out to Africa where he founded the famous hospital at Lambaréné out of respect for all forms of life." [3] Rejection of eschatology leads to "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" (Robert M Price) -- T.Hume 23:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The sayings section is pretty terrible. These lists don't help the reader see the vision of Jesus that the seminar is presenting or the premises on which the seminar accepted or rejected sayings. I'm working up to adding a subsection under "sayings" that uses typical red, pink, gray, and black sayings to show the Seminar's POV. I don't want to delete these long lists of red and pink sayings, but they're pretty long and not that informative. Jonathan Tweet 14:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
You can move them around, but the lists should stay. They may appear uninformative, however, this is how the Seminar proceeded, first it voted on verses, then it considered what the verses meant, rather than drawing a conclusion first and then finding the verses that matched the conclusion. 75.0.12.173 06:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
In the section, "Overall reliability of the five gospels", the article refers to the Jesus Seminar as considering five Gospels. In most copies of the New Testament, there are only four books identified as gospels: what is the fifth one they refer to? The Q document? The Gospel of Thomas? -- llywrch 00:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
An edit (weasel-worded) http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jesus_Seminar&diff=prev&oldid=93202170 was added "Some Christians go so far as to depict the Jesus Seminar as a tool of Satan, meant to undermine Biblical beliefs. [1]" . Who are these people and are they in the same league as the "two hundred academic New Testament scholars" (thats a whole lot of PhDs). I'm tagging it as weasel. Ttiotsw 20:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a complete Scholars Version translation of the entire Bible available somewhere? -- Loremaster 15:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Complete Gospels includes the Five Gospels and other Gospels the seminar deemed possibly relevant. 75.15.198.7 22:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Some info here: [5]
There's a lot of facts and numbers throughout this article without citation. I thought I would make a mention here before arbitrarily slapping on an unreferenced tag since this page seems reasonably active. Vassyana 11:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Is this the one of "Bob Jones University" (in)fame?
Just checking... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.134.46 ( talk • contribs) 22:40, February 24, 2007
There's a discussion about whether the JS qualifies as a reliable source ( WP:RS) on Talk:Lazarus and Dives. Jonathan Tweet 20:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I happened to drop in at this page, and more or less at random followed one link. This was the Dutch text supposed to be a source for the statement
Now, I'm not expert in Dutch. However, as well as I understand
Paul Verhoeven schrijft boek over Jezus, it simply does not say that.
First of all, it is not an actual press release, but slightly similar. It is a brief article on a news site(?) named Katholiek Nederland, and it also seem to have some pages with information on the Roman Catholioic Church activities in the Netherlands. Most news are related to religeous issues of one or another sort. The article in the link indeed does seem to be based on or at least prompted by a press releaseabout a planned book by Paul Verhoeven; but it is unclear whether part of the article is based on other sources than the book intressents or general knowledge. It is adorned with a link to the Jesus seminar web page.
The article is not particulary critical. It states that Paul Verhoeven is the only (?'enige') non-theologian in the Jesus seminar. (I suspect that this is wrong.) However, according to the article the representant of the publisher claims that it is a truly scientific book, by a man who really knows the subject (?'weet echt waar hij het over heeft'). The article does not gainsay this, but goes on to describe a film project about the historical Jesus, and quotes Paul Verhoeven as respecting the importance Jesus has as basis of the western civilisation and for many people to-day.
I cannot find anything about 'bible knowledge'. The only thing even remotely similar is the statement 'as a fact' that Paul Verhoeven isn't a theologian. In my vocabulary, 'education in the Bible' is not synonymous with 'being a theologian'. The author of the article seems to share this view, since (s)he presents 'the claim' that Verhoeven knows his subject without any hint of protest.
Summing up the reference fairly, it is a notice from a news service connected to the Dutch Catholic Church, based on a press release about a forthcoming book about Jesus by Paul Verhoeven; and it states that while he is not a theologian, he does know the subject well enough to write a serious scientific book about it. This could not reasonably be summed up as Paul Verhoeven does not have any education in the Bible.. That may be verifiable, but not by this source..
Now, this was only one reference; and besides it is in a small language not too many of us know vell. However, I think you should have someone 'neutral' but Dutch-speaking person check over whether my reading of this text is correct; and if it is, you probably ocught to check the other references as well. I really hope that my single 'test' wasn't typical.
Best wishes, JoergenB 07:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
One of the topics is the seminar's criteria for what makes a Jesus quote authentic or inauthentic. (For example, is it catchy, is it ironic, etc.) Does anyone know how they arrived at these criteria? Perhaps I'm the only one, but that sections seems to feel incomplete without understanding how they arrived at these criteria.
This is just my personal opinion, as well as my personal desire to know how they arrived at these criteria. Feel free to weigh in. 68.116.143.113 06:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I bulked up the Authentic section as requested. I can do the same for Inauthentic, but first, any comments on what I've done so far? I think this is a lot better because it gives the reader the chance to get into the fellows' heads better. Jonathan Tweet 02:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This material looks a little bogus.
Not all of the Seven pillars of Scholarly wisdom are universally accepted, with pillars one and five being rejected outright by a large portion of Biblical Scholars.45:00-46:30The Five Gospels says that the non-apocalyptic view gained ground in the 1970s and 1980s when research into Jesus shifted out of religious environments and into secular academia. The apocalyptic elements attributed to Jesus, according to The Five Gospels, come from John the Baptist and the early Christian community.Media:Example.ogg
Differentiating between historical Jesus and Jesus of faith (pillar one) isn't controversial, and this section says it is. Historians differentiate and most Christians don't, but there's precious little controversy either within the field of history or within Christianity. Let's talk about whether the pillars are controversial in the JS's own field: historical Jesus. Jonathan Tweet 02:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
An editor added "fact" tags to the seven pillars section even though there's a reference for the statements. Since I added the reference and the new information, I don't want to be the one to remove the fact tags (unnecessary in my view). Anyone else interested in looking the section over? Jonathan Tweet 17:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add a section that shows how the fellows analyzed text: multiple attestation, irony, Christian additions, and voting. The Beatitudes work pretty well here, as they demonstrate how the Fellows distinguish among the beatitudes, rating three up, three or four down, and one neutral (or something like that). I know someone will object that it's OR because that's what they say when I try to make things really clear, so I thought I'd draw fire here on the talk page before proceeding. Comments? Jonathan Tweet 02:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a section on the beatitudes. Jonathan Tweet 22:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any objection to pushing the article to Peer review - a step that should always be taken before the Featured Articles Candidacy step? -- Loremaster 22:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I imagine we need to have a conversation about how controversial the JS is in which circles. I gave the lead my shot at a balanced take on it. Jonathan Tweet 04:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Does the "Scholars Version" constitute a "bible"? I ask because none of Wikipedia's various articles on bibles mention it:
etc. 151.197.28.239 04:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the comment claiming that the commons scholarly opinion rejects the Gospel of John as reliable. This is simply not true, and the reference for this statement comes from a single source. I can give 50 that disagree with the Catholic source cited. Simply stated, the rejection of John is not at all agreed upon. Saying as much is against the unbiased POV. Please quit replacing it. If you're a skeptic and want to butter the Jesus Seminar up, that's one thing, but don't do so using a single source that contradicts plenty of others. For instance, Interpreting the Gospel of John by Gary Burge makes the opposite claim of the Catholics. Also, the respected D.A. Carson, in his Historical Tradition in the Fourth Gospel, has much to say on the issue. Simply stated, the claim of scholarly rejection is unfounded, and has no place in an unbiased Wikipedia article. 24.20.48.231 17:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't care for the header of "Criticism of the Jesus Seminar" in an arcticle that sthrives for Featured Article status and think it should be retitled or removed if possible. If such sections contain both the criticism and counter arguments (which they should for a high quality article), then such should not be labeled as criticism. Each section can stand on its own as a section of Jesus Seminar with integrated criticism and rebuttal. Such a section of arguments might have a title to group them but perhaps a better term could be used then "criticism" as this automaticly presents a POV. See Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure, Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure, and Wikipedia:Criticism. As far as the list of critics (and I'm speaking without knowing them and without really reading through the material so forgive me if I off base), if they are significant enough to be mentioned here, then they should probably have their own article, where their criticism and the rebuttal of the topic can be expanded and linked back to the main article. If many critics make the same argument, then such is justified in having a section in this article with possible reference to the critics that make the argument. See WP:WEIGHT. -- Loremaster 13:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Loremaster, I don't understand why you think it's important to have a wikilink to Iconoclasm in the lead-in to this article. The rest of the sentence (". . . he often turned common-sense ideas upside down, confounding the expectations of his audience") seems to make the point pretty clearly on its own. The article the link goes to discusses the destruction of physical icons and other religious images - not something that Jesus is reported to have done (unless you count the cleansing of the temple, but that was targeted against commerce and doesn't seem have had anything to do with religious images). I certainly understand how someone could refer to Jesus as an "iconoclast," because he did challenge people's established religious beliefs, but sending people to the article on Iconoclast doesn't seem like it would help much, because it's just a redirect page (albeit with the one-line definition "[o]ne who attacks cherished beliefs") and sending them to the article on Iconoclasm seems misleading, because it could give the impression that Jesus went around smashing up statues and frescoes. I don't know that it would be incorrect to simply add the one-line definition into the text ("Jesus was an iconoclast, challenging many of his hearers' cherished beliefs"), but I'm not sure it adds much to what's already there. EastTN ( talk) 21:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I have replaced the word "determine" with the phrase "decide their collective view of" - because their voting cannot, of course, change the historicity of events (unless you are an ultra post-modernist - which the JS are not, as I understand it). Springnuts ( talk) 21:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks like there's been some back and forth recently on how the article should characterize the critics of the Jesus Seminar. The current text says:
We don't have any similar characterization of the theological view of members of the Seminar or scholars who agree with them. The closest we come is in the criticism section, where we quote Craig as saying that the seminar members don't represent a consensus among New Testament scholars, and then say:
In the first case we are, as editors, characterizing the critics as conservatives. If I'm not mistaken, none of the references given makes that claim - all of the footnotes point to works by the scholars who're criticizing the Seminar's analysis, not third-party sources that survey the critics and conclude that they are predominantly conservatives. In the second case we're reporting a claim made by critics, and qualifying the characterization by placing the term "liberal" in quotation marks.
This seems to create at least the appearance that we are, as editors, labeling one side while questioning any labeling suggested for the other side. This could be read to suggest that we believe the critics represent a minority at one end of the ideological spectrum, while the Seminar itself represents a broad consensus across the rest of the ideological spectrum. If that's true, we should say so - but it would be a very strong claim, and we need to find reliable sources to document it. EastTN ( talk) 22:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard that only "conservatives" question the Jesus Seminar - the Jesus seminar is at one end of the spectrum (besides the radical fringe that denies the historical existence of Jesus entirely). My understanding is that many non-conservative scholars do not accept the Jesus Seminar's inclusion. Anyone, for instance, who views Jesus's mission as largely apocalyptic would be unsupportive of the Jesus Seminar, and that would include many who could not by any reasonable standard be viewed as "conservative." But it's been years since I've looked into this very closely, so I couldn't say for sure. john k ( talk) 05:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
would "travelling" be a better word than "itinerant" as travelling looks simpler? K61824 ( talk) 21:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I know "The Historical Jesus For Dummies" a first glance seems like a strange source. However the Catherine M. Murphy is knowledgeable and writes from a NPOV. Are there any points specific points that cause you concern? Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
I believe this article may well be rather clearly slanted toward the thinking of the Jesus Seminar intself. Here are a few examples:
There is also the matter of their unique take on the Gospels, including their inclusion of the Gospel of Thomas in the groups' The Five Gospels, despite the fact that that Gospel had been known for about 50 years prior to publication and been fairly universally counted as a Gnostic text written centuries later. This does not seem to be mentioned in the article at all.
Nor, unfortunately, is there any clear mention of the other works which have been written in response to the group, often very critical of their methodologies and outcomes. I would think that NPOV would require the inclusion of same. John Carter ( talk) 22:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
While what is above is only one possibility, I think that it would cover all the bases. John Carter ( talk) 21:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I read reports that the group is now headquartered at some college in Oregon. Particularly after what seems to have been the death of the group's founder, its status would, presumably, be of interest to editors and be something they would think to update. I did print out a copy of the newspaper report on the subject, but, unfortunately, cannot find it in the reports in front of me. John Carter ( talk) 21:48, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I have again removed an enormous amount of material that presents in excruciating detail the results of the seminar. It's sourced--but it's sourced to the official seminar publication (primary) and thus the notability of the information is in doubt (I don't doubt the veracity, of course). 17k of results, that's simply too much: as I said before, a summary is fine, but this is was too much. Drmies ( talk) 21:53, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
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Under the heading "Search for the historical Jesus", the final sentence reads, "The method and conclusions of the Jesus Seminar have come under harsh criticism by some [quantify] biblical scholars, historians, and clergy for a variety of reasons."
Given the number of scholars listed in the section "Criticism from scholars", I think it would be accurate to use the word "numerous" in place of "some". I will make that change, to provide quantification as requested. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 01:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
The Wikipedia has a whole section which discusses the St. John Fragment. It is: Rylands Library Papyrus P52
It is a fragment of St. John's Gospel which has been dated to between 90 AD and 120 AD. It is the earliest archaeological artifact which is of a piece of an early copy of one of the Gospels (namely, St. John's Gospel).
The St. John Fragment, being in Codex Form, would have to have been first penned by St. John, then copied and ultimately made into a Codex, and then it would have to have found its way to Egypt. This pushes the original writing of the Gospel to, about, 90 AD +/-.
The St. John Fragment shows that the Jesus Seminar has no basis in fact since the belief in the Divine Nature of Jesus clearly was established early in the Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettaripepc ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 3 December 2021 (UTC)