This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of previous discussion of what is currently paragraph 3 of the introduction. Most of this is extracted from Talk:Jesus/Archive_22. archola 10:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
First it was too long, now it is too short! Can we not find a happy medium? - Ta bu shi da yu 06:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I will dispense with the indent given the length of the thread. I have not changed the intro since KHM03 edits, which I have agreed with. As I said several times above, I sought the most basic beliefs for the opening paragraph. I still think it would be better to limit the statment to "Son of God" because all Christians agree with the statement. However, to introduce the concept of the Trinity is not necessary in the intro. It limits agreement, just as the introduction of the Immaculate Conception limits agreement (besides being off-topic). My definition of a Christian is more inclusive than most...it is those that accept Jesus as their personal Savior, that he died for thier sins, that he was resurrected the third day breaking the bonds of death that all might be resurrected; and only through Christ may all enter the presence of the Father. The concept of the Trinity is not taught in the Bible; it is a third century thought. This is not the forum for a discussion of the Trinity and its merits. Suffice it to say that, in reality, I support the majority of its thoughts and disagree with others. The Godhead is a mystery, at rare times it is as if I come close to grasping its meaning, but then it quickly excapes my grasp. I would say that it is beyond our comprehension. As a preacher would say, we can apprend, but not comprehend. Peace. Storm Rider 23:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone opposed to somethign along the lines of saying that mainstream Christianity hold that....? Oh and who are these "Christians" sects that don't believe that? I'd be interested in knowing for my own info. Thanks. Gator (talk) 18:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
(see below) KHM03 19:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, you have changed the introductory paragraph and I reverted your changes several times with explanations. Let’s go over it one more time with the goal of coming to a conclusion: 1) It is the introductory paragraph and should be kept to the most fundamental tenants of Christianity. This means keep it so simple that there is no chance for disagreement. All Christians agree that he was the son of God. 2) The introductory paragraph is not the place to quote scripture. There is more to the Gospel than John 3:16. Nor is WIKI the place to quote scripture. As Oscillate stated well above, there are well formed scriptural references that would cast doubt on some of your statements and WIKI is not a place for scripture bashing. The fact that there is disagreement is reason enough to keep the introductory paragraph simpler than your proposal.
Please note that I am limiting these comments to the INTRODUCTION. I encourage you to make the same comments, but do it later in the body of the article. My disagreement is just as much about style as about content. I understand that you have deeply held convictions and my intentions are not to invalidate them. I can rejoice in them with you, but please attempt to grasp the distinction I am making about the purpose of an introductory paragraph and the body of the article. Storm Rider 01:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I contributed the general information in the introduction for INTRODUCTORY purposes. It is not meant to outline a detailed account of Jesus as other sections do (and should.) It outlines basic concepts of Jesus according to mainstream Christianity just as the
Vishnu article does in relation to Hinduism, the
Moses article does in relation to Judaism, and the
Muhammad article does in relation to Islam: (I could go on.)
Exactly why it is not suitable to generally describe the subject's position in the related religion still has not been explained in any way other than that you don't like it there. And to my chagrin I make note that you have only raised this issue in the article concerning Jesus. The Background and subsequent sections are meant to provide a more detailed account of the subject and such introductory information belongs in the introduction. Try looking at some other online or printed encyclopedias if you don't understand this concept. Aiden 22:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Did I say it was only about Christianity? No. I said general information according to Christianity should be included in the introduction as Jesus is the central figure of Christianity. This applies to the countless other articles on religious figures, where general information according to the relevant religion is provided in the introduction. As the introduction stated, Jesus plays important roles in other religions, but is not a central figure. If you would like, simply remove the reference to John 3:16 if you have a problem with explaining why Christians view Jesus as atonement for sins. But this removal of extremely relevant and general information amounts to nothing less than vandalism in my mind. If you insist on maintaining double-standards, I feel we may need the arbitration committee to rule on the issue. Aiden 22:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Current version:
According to traditional Christian faith, Jesus is both the Son of God and God made incarnate, sent to atone for humanity's sins, and acceptance of Jesus as Christ saves one from sin (John 3:16). Christians generally believe Jesus was born of a virgin, crucified and buried, resurrected on the third day of death, and ascended into Heaven where he resides at the right hand of God until the Second Coming.
Proposed revision:
Christians who follow the Nicene Creed believe that Jesus is both the Son of God and God made incarnate, sent to atone for humanity's sins, and that acceptance of Jesus as Christ saves one from sin. They believe Jesus was born of a virgin, crucified and buried, resurrected on the third day of death, and ascended into Heaven where he resides at the right hand of God until the Second Coming. However, there are also Christian groups who reject the Nicene Creed as a misinterpretation of scripture.
This is just a rough draft, but I believe it is both relatively simple and relatively comprehensive. It explicity mentions the tradition behind "traditional Christianity" and sounds less POV than "Christians generally believe." I considered making reference to the Trinitarian/Nontrinitarian distinction, but Trinitarian thought is only part of the Nicene Creed. Of course, the issue can be discussed more fully under Jesus#Christian views, and in related articles such as Nicene Creed, Trinitarianism and Nontrinitarianism.
Any comments? archola 12:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to maintain consistency within articles. Just as the other articles on religious figures, this article should include some of the fundamental concepts of Jesus according to Christianity in the introduction. I feel Archola's suggestions are a good beginning to a discussion and compromise, but I won't accept this complete gutting of the intro because it doesn't fit your POV. There are several concepts outlined in the introduction that I think we can say safely ALL Christians by definition must accept, so your all-or-nothing approach certainly is not well-founded. Further details need to be in seperate sections, but the general info that was in the introduction is just that, general info. Aiden 23:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, my friend, conversation with you seems to be impossible. You do not listen to others and then have the audacity to ask "what the problem" is when people don't do exactly as you want them. I don't see any further reason to converse. Oh, and I was not yelling, I was screaming at the top of my lungs trying to get you to listen. You have proven that listening and compromise is beyond your current ability. Good luck. Storm Rider 08:54, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Good work, Archola. Intro is general yet informative, well-rounded, and NPOV. Aiden 04:25, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed the last sentence in the opening back to the more neutral statement "Other Christians" without identifying churches or members. My reasoning is twofold: 1) the intro begins by identifying Christians that believe in the Nicene Creed. Then moves to those who don't accept the Nicene Creed, but qualifying it as "self-identified" as Christians. This is POV; although I am fully aware of the many groups that attempt to limit the definition of Christianity to those who only believe in the Nicene Creed, I have yet met anyone on this earth capable of "knowing" one's heart. 2) In attempting to limit those who don't believe in the Nicene Creed to JW's and Mormons, you do so without any reference. Further, you undermine the vast numbers of people who worship Christ, but do not practice within organized religion. In addition, you are speaking of a Church's doctrine, not the beliefs of their members. Does anyone actually believe that all members of any church believe all doctrines taught by that church? In truth, I am not aware of any study that identifies all people who believe in the Nicene Creed and those who don't. Keep the paragraph limited to what we know, and in keeping with the statement that beliefs are diverse and complex; there are Christians who believe in the Nicene Creed and those who don't. Storm Rider 02:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
With the Islamic details moved up this morning (I believe by JamieHughes), the intro is starting to get long again. Is everyone fine with that, or...? archola 16:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Mentioning the atoning mission of Jesus is fine, but let's not tie ourselves down to any one particular theory of the atonement. That would be quite POV. KHM03 19:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
These views have been mainstream for 2000 years (see Orthodox Christianity for starters...or read up on the ransom view of the atonement), and are quite traditional. We can mention the atonement...that's great...but let's not favor any one particular interpretation of that doctrine or any one interpretation of the Scriptures. Some of the most brilliant minds in the civilized world have wrestled with these issues and not come up with one definitive answer. Let's be POV, accurate, and fair. Thanks... KHM03 20:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Sacrifice, yes. This is traditional and biblical. But what is the meaning of sacrifice? Sacrifice does not necessarily imply "satisfaction" or "propitiation" any more than "to atone" means, in and of itself, "to satisfy" or "to propitiate." This is an anachronism, reading Anselmian and later categories into what came long before. "To sacrifice" simply means "to sanctify by offering to God" and implies, when dealing with a living subject, that the subject is killed. -- Midnite Critic 05:38, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed the reference, referring to Mormons and JW's as examples of groups which reject the Nicene Creed and the Trinity (which pretty much comes to the same thing; I can't think of any group which accepts the Creed and rejects the Trinity, although many groups, among them trinitarian restorationists, would reject the notion of the binding nature of the creed while accepting the Trinity and therefore, the creed's contents, at least with regard to the statements concerning the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) and dropping the reference to restorationists. Most restorationist groups, such as the Churches of Christ, Christian Churches, Disciples of Christ, et. al., are in fact trinitarians. However, the Latter Day Saint strand is not, at least the Mormon Church and its offshoots are not (Not sure where the Community of Christ, formerly the RLDS Church, stands; they may be). The SDA Church is trinitarian, if not exactly creedal, and not restorationist. JW's are not trinitarian, creedal, OR "restorationist". -- Midnite Critic 05:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
"I can't think of any group which accepts the Creed and rejects the Trinity,"
The Community of Christ, formerly the RLDS church, is trinitarian. Baptists are traditionally non-creedal, but are Trinitarian.
We are discussing what churches believe, but I would still offer that what chruches teach and what members believe are two different things. I believe it is always best to clarify what churches teach while leaving room for what Christians believe. I am not sure I know many people who believe every single doctrine taught by a given church; very few actually know all the doctrines of their respective churches. When we only describe what churches believe, we ignore the actual beliefs of many, many Christians.
When discussing LDS theology, one must be careful. They worship one God, the Father. They approach the Father through his Son, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit, the third member of the Godhead teaches all mankind the truthfulness of the Gospel of Christ. He is the second comforter promised by Christ. There is one Godhead manifested in three separate, distinct personages, but one in purpose. They do not believe in creeds and view them as the doctrines of men created by men. Scripture teaches, but he Spirit reveals the truth to mankind. They/we seek to be as Peter when Christ said, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. They appear subtle differences, but there definitely differences. Storm Rider 07:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Intro has
Aside from being a tortured sentence that sorely needs at least a couple of "that"s or, better yet, needs to be split up, the Nicene Creed does not say acceptance of Jesus is a condition of being saved. It may, in one of its forms, say he came to save people - but it does not say acceptance is needed. This is a presentation of beliefs of one variety of Xty - and does not even accurately reflect the beliefs of the single variety that has the most members (Catholicism) -- JimWae 00:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Where does it say belief or acceptance is a condition of salvation? Catholics do not believe acceptance is either sufficient or necessary -- JimWae 01:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Not all Christians have even heard of the Nicene creed nor does it represent the prime definition of Christianity, just because the Nicene creed might not literally say that we must accept Christ, (Though considering it says "we believe in" one would think acceptance of Christ would follow) does not mean Christianity does not. Also, belief about something does not imply accepting something, but belief in something does, if you believe in someone to help you, you are accepting that the person will help you, if you believe that you will get a good grade on a math test, you are accepting the idea that you will get a good grade on your math test, I don't see the problem here. Also, the Bible never specifies that formally joining a church is a pre-requisite to being saved, it better not be, or I am dead....quite literally, I assure you. Homestarmy 01:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The intro uses "right hand" of God -- this is a needless additional "detail" to saying Jesus is in heaven with God. It assumes God is bilateral - something few theologians assert with any certainty. Perhaps this is just figurative language. If so, it may be appropriate for Sunday school & parables, but it does not belong in an introduction to a basic encyclopedia article about Jesus -- scare quotes or not -- JimWae 20:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Since there is revision of this article being done, I would like to suggest some minor changes to this paragraph. First of all, it is problematic to state that Jesus was "a part" of the Holy Trinity. One might say that He was a "member" of the Holy Trinity or the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. The Trinity is not divided into "parts." Secondly, mention should be made in this section about the orthodox Christian doctrine of the two natures in Christ. This does not have to be detailed, but it makes the difference clearer between those who affirm the deity of Christ and those who deny it. drboisclair 15:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
And I've copied previous discussion on the third paragraph to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro. The archive dates back to Jan. 8, when the paragraph was added to the intro.
I don't mean to jump the gun, but when we are ready to move on, we might want to review the previous discussion. archola 10:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
A few introductory comments. The paragraph as it stands represents a compromise. We tried to come up with a description broad enough to cover all forms of Christianity. The reference to the Nicene Creed is mine; it acknowledges the historic and ongoing distinction between Nicene Christianity and its descendents on the one hand, and other forms of Christianity on the other. It also acknowledges that the beliefs expressed in the creed are widely, but not universally, accepted. Since "other forms of Christianity" includes the various historical lost Christianities (citation: Bart D. Ehrman, Talk:Jesus#Bart Ehrman), it also provides a link to the previous paragraph's discussion of historicity. "Other forms" also refers to modern Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentacostals, and other bodies outside of the Nicene tradition, as well as some Christians outside of organized religion. archola 17:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
PS:The full title of Ehrman's book mentioned above is The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. archola 17:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a debate over interpretations of the Nicene Creed, but the reference to John 3:16 seems redundant. Or at least confusing: it's not clear what's being cited to the creed, and what is being cited to the Gospel. (Of course, the creed itself is based on an interpretation of the Gospels, as well as the rest of the New Testament. "Life and Teachings" starts with Some other relevant verses, so John 3:16 might fit in better there.) Arch O. La 18:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I should clarify that the Nicene Creed citation was meant to cover everything between "Most Christians" and "Other Christians." After proposing the compromise, I stayed out of the debate over the finer points of theology re:atonement, salvation, sanctification, justification, et al. I'm a Lutheran, but CTSWyneken is better qualified to explain the Lutheran position than this lay believer. Arch O. La 02:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll not get into the debate here until the 2nd paragraph is settled. Since I haven't read the discussion, it really isn't fair for me to wade in, much less suggest, much, much less cbange anything. -- CTSWyneken 02:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I have made an emendation to the "Christian view of Jesus": Jesus is a member rather than part of the Holy Trinity. According to orthodox Christianity the Holy Trinity is not divisible into parts. Each divine Person is totus Deus, each having the fulness of deity. It is not the orthodox Christian view that Jesus is a third of God while the Father and the Holy Spirit are the other two thirds. There is no denomination of Christendom which publically believes and teaches that the Holy Trinity is divided up into parts. Of course, anything is possible. I would like to assist in editing this article as I am a Christian theologian dedicated, though, to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I am glad, by the way, that the red neutrality flag has been removed. We want to try to make this article the best it can be in the greatest online encyclopedia. With all respect to all. drboisclair 01:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That said, I doubt there will be much quibble over this one word. Arch O. La 03:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC) Addendum: God is beyond human understanding, and thus beyond words. Any words we use are only true in an approximate way, since, unlike God, language is not absolute. That said, some words are more true than others. Arch O. La 04:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraph has been repeatedly restored - usually with only the comment "restore compromise"
I presume the first sentence of the paragraph is intended to be parsed as such
and NOT
With 2 "and"s in there and neither a comma nor a "that" to mark the parallelism, the sentence is at least syntactically awkward. But my main objection is not to syntax - I mention it only to point out how "stuck on" the last part of the sentence is.
1. The Nicene Creed does NOT say that "acceptance of Jesus as Saviour saves one from sin ( John 3:16)" -- rather it says that Jesus came to save people - no condition is mentioned. (Whether the condition is understood as necessary, sufficient, or anything else, it is still a condition.) The reverter has contended it IS in the Nicene Creed, or implied, or something... -- but it is NOT there, and any revert based on such "reasoning" is POV and Original Research.
2. The paragraph repeats "Nicene Creed" and as such, forms a bracket around things in-between, and has been repeatedly restored to keep that bracketing. If things in the middle are NOT about the Nicene Creed, then such should be explicit.
3. Catholics & several other groups (Greek Orthodox too, I think) do NOT believe that acceptance of Jesus is a condition (neither necessary nor sufficient) of salvation. Catholic theologians had even "invented" Limbo for those who were neither baptized, nor had accepted Jesus. According to this view, until Jesus, all good people went to Limbo. For centuries afterwards, with most of the world never hearing of Jesus, Limbo would probably still have been FAR more populated than heaven. Even now, more conceptions end in spontaneous abortion than birth. While the RCs no longer teach Limbo, they do still teach that those who never "accepted" Jesus can be saved. The RCs seem ready to even say they are already in heaven. The RCs also teach that those adults who lead a "just life" yet never "accept Jesus", can also be saved.
4. Even IF the majority of Xians belonged to churches that held this John 3:16 position, it would be only a bare majority (and it is NOT clear even that such IS the case). The introduction is needlessly introducing an issue about which there is no general agreement in Xty - and gives NO indication that there is contention on this issue. This topic, not being generally agreed upon, does not belong in the introduction - John 3:16's being "stuck on" is evidence that it is there mostly either to satisfy someone's desire to profess his/her faith or to engage in some Bible-thumping. It is misleading to present only the predominantly Protestant view as the view of "most Christians" (there is also other distinctly Protestant vocabulary in the paragraph and article, btw, but that's for another day). The proportion of Xians who believe the first part of the sentence is in no way commensurate with the proportion of those who believe the last part - and it is misleading NOT to point this out.
5. The clause in NOT really about Jesus, but rather about a religious relationship to Jesus. Not even the "Religious articles" on Jesus even mention this condition for salvation. This is supposed to be primarily a biography article about Jesus - not one about what certain sects teach about how one is supposed to relate to him.
6. Only one person has repeatedly restored my removal of that part of the sentence. I take it that is because I have already persuaded people here that it does not belong. Just because 4 or 5 people agreed on a compromise one week does not mean that the text is to remain unaltered despite further discussion. Another sentence has already been added on.
7. Why does it take a non-Christian to point this out?
I think I have amply demonstrated why this clause does not belong in this sentence in the introduction. This John 3:16 view is not agreed upon in anywhere near the same proportion as the other views in the sentence - it is quite likely not even the position of the Xian churches to which the majority of Xians belong. It is time to see who is fighting against the real consensus
-- JimWae 07:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The compromise was meant to include both Nicene and non-Nicene views within the broader "Christian views." I have proposed that the reference to John 3:16 be moved to under "Life and Teachings, based on the Gospels." Beyond that, the paragraph was essentially designed by commitee, and the syntax could use some work. Arch O. La 18:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
But the majority view affirms the essense at least of the Nicene Creed, and John 3:16, right? Where's the problem? Homestarmy 23:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Nearly all Xians assert the specific parts of the Nicene Creed mentioned in the article (although probably less assert the virgin birth & that too should be reviewed - but it is part of most Xian doctrine, even if the members do not believe). Approximately half of the Xians in the world are Catholic, and they do NOT interpret John 3:16 so literally - so anyone can do the math. Then there's the problem with what "accept Jesus" means. If I accept he lived & that he was generally a good guy, am I saved too? The intro should state ONLY what nearly all Xians agree on.-- JimWae 23:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
??? there is no link between the Nicene Creed & John 3:16. The article seems to have confused you on this - which is why it needs to be changed. When the intro presents Xian views, it should present ONLY what nearly all Xians agree on - without using vague language. -- JimWae 00:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
But now your saying that no Catholic agrees with John 3:16, correct? Homestarmy 01:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Last sentence in the third paragraph reads "Most Christians also believe that Jesus fulfilled Bible prophecy." The word ASLO should be removed since the previous sentence applies to SOME Christians but not ALL or MOST.
Stuartyeates 17:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
That's not how I read it. Sorry. Gator (talk) 18:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Archive updated March 3, 2006 to include content from the last 2 weeks. Arch O. La 03:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of previous discussion of what is currently paragraph 3 of the introduction. Most of this is extracted from Talk:Jesus/Archive_22. archola 10:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
First it was too long, now it is too short! Can we not find a happy medium? - Ta bu shi da yu 06:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I will dispense with the indent given the length of the thread. I have not changed the intro since KHM03 edits, which I have agreed with. As I said several times above, I sought the most basic beliefs for the opening paragraph. I still think it would be better to limit the statment to "Son of God" because all Christians agree with the statement. However, to introduce the concept of the Trinity is not necessary in the intro. It limits agreement, just as the introduction of the Immaculate Conception limits agreement (besides being off-topic). My definition of a Christian is more inclusive than most...it is those that accept Jesus as their personal Savior, that he died for thier sins, that he was resurrected the third day breaking the bonds of death that all might be resurrected; and only through Christ may all enter the presence of the Father. The concept of the Trinity is not taught in the Bible; it is a third century thought. This is not the forum for a discussion of the Trinity and its merits. Suffice it to say that, in reality, I support the majority of its thoughts and disagree with others. The Godhead is a mystery, at rare times it is as if I come close to grasping its meaning, but then it quickly excapes my grasp. I would say that it is beyond our comprehension. As a preacher would say, we can apprend, but not comprehend. Peace. Storm Rider 23:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone opposed to somethign along the lines of saying that mainstream Christianity hold that....? Oh and who are these "Christians" sects that don't believe that? I'd be interested in knowing for my own info. Thanks. Gator (talk) 18:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
(see below) KHM03 19:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, you have changed the introductory paragraph and I reverted your changes several times with explanations. Let’s go over it one more time with the goal of coming to a conclusion: 1) It is the introductory paragraph and should be kept to the most fundamental tenants of Christianity. This means keep it so simple that there is no chance for disagreement. All Christians agree that he was the son of God. 2) The introductory paragraph is not the place to quote scripture. There is more to the Gospel than John 3:16. Nor is WIKI the place to quote scripture. As Oscillate stated well above, there are well formed scriptural references that would cast doubt on some of your statements and WIKI is not a place for scripture bashing. The fact that there is disagreement is reason enough to keep the introductory paragraph simpler than your proposal.
Please note that I am limiting these comments to the INTRODUCTION. I encourage you to make the same comments, but do it later in the body of the article. My disagreement is just as much about style as about content. I understand that you have deeply held convictions and my intentions are not to invalidate them. I can rejoice in them with you, but please attempt to grasp the distinction I am making about the purpose of an introductory paragraph and the body of the article. Storm Rider 01:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I contributed the general information in the introduction for INTRODUCTORY purposes. It is not meant to outline a detailed account of Jesus as other sections do (and should.) It outlines basic concepts of Jesus according to mainstream Christianity just as the
Vishnu article does in relation to Hinduism, the
Moses article does in relation to Judaism, and the
Muhammad article does in relation to Islam: (I could go on.)
Exactly why it is not suitable to generally describe the subject's position in the related religion still has not been explained in any way other than that you don't like it there. And to my chagrin I make note that you have only raised this issue in the article concerning Jesus. The Background and subsequent sections are meant to provide a more detailed account of the subject and such introductory information belongs in the introduction. Try looking at some other online or printed encyclopedias if you don't understand this concept. Aiden 22:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Did I say it was only about Christianity? No. I said general information according to Christianity should be included in the introduction as Jesus is the central figure of Christianity. This applies to the countless other articles on religious figures, where general information according to the relevant religion is provided in the introduction. As the introduction stated, Jesus plays important roles in other religions, but is not a central figure. If you would like, simply remove the reference to John 3:16 if you have a problem with explaining why Christians view Jesus as atonement for sins. But this removal of extremely relevant and general information amounts to nothing less than vandalism in my mind. If you insist on maintaining double-standards, I feel we may need the arbitration committee to rule on the issue. Aiden 22:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Current version:
According to traditional Christian faith, Jesus is both the Son of God and God made incarnate, sent to atone for humanity's sins, and acceptance of Jesus as Christ saves one from sin (John 3:16). Christians generally believe Jesus was born of a virgin, crucified and buried, resurrected on the third day of death, and ascended into Heaven where he resides at the right hand of God until the Second Coming.
Proposed revision:
Christians who follow the Nicene Creed believe that Jesus is both the Son of God and God made incarnate, sent to atone for humanity's sins, and that acceptance of Jesus as Christ saves one from sin. They believe Jesus was born of a virgin, crucified and buried, resurrected on the third day of death, and ascended into Heaven where he resides at the right hand of God until the Second Coming. However, there are also Christian groups who reject the Nicene Creed as a misinterpretation of scripture.
This is just a rough draft, but I believe it is both relatively simple and relatively comprehensive. It explicity mentions the tradition behind "traditional Christianity" and sounds less POV than "Christians generally believe." I considered making reference to the Trinitarian/Nontrinitarian distinction, but Trinitarian thought is only part of the Nicene Creed. Of course, the issue can be discussed more fully under Jesus#Christian views, and in related articles such as Nicene Creed, Trinitarianism and Nontrinitarianism.
Any comments? archola 12:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to maintain consistency within articles. Just as the other articles on religious figures, this article should include some of the fundamental concepts of Jesus according to Christianity in the introduction. I feel Archola's suggestions are a good beginning to a discussion and compromise, but I won't accept this complete gutting of the intro because it doesn't fit your POV. There are several concepts outlined in the introduction that I think we can say safely ALL Christians by definition must accept, so your all-or-nothing approach certainly is not well-founded. Further details need to be in seperate sections, but the general info that was in the introduction is just that, general info. Aiden 23:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, my friend, conversation with you seems to be impossible. You do not listen to others and then have the audacity to ask "what the problem" is when people don't do exactly as you want them. I don't see any further reason to converse. Oh, and I was not yelling, I was screaming at the top of my lungs trying to get you to listen. You have proven that listening and compromise is beyond your current ability. Good luck. Storm Rider 08:54, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Good work, Archola. Intro is general yet informative, well-rounded, and NPOV. Aiden 04:25, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed the last sentence in the opening back to the more neutral statement "Other Christians" without identifying churches or members. My reasoning is twofold: 1) the intro begins by identifying Christians that believe in the Nicene Creed. Then moves to those who don't accept the Nicene Creed, but qualifying it as "self-identified" as Christians. This is POV; although I am fully aware of the many groups that attempt to limit the definition of Christianity to those who only believe in the Nicene Creed, I have yet met anyone on this earth capable of "knowing" one's heart. 2) In attempting to limit those who don't believe in the Nicene Creed to JW's and Mormons, you do so without any reference. Further, you undermine the vast numbers of people who worship Christ, but do not practice within organized religion. In addition, you are speaking of a Church's doctrine, not the beliefs of their members. Does anyone actually believe that all members of any church believe all doctrines taught by that church? In truth, I am not aware of any study that identifies all people who believe in the Nicene Creed and those who don't. Keep the paragraph limited to what we know, and in keeping with the statement that beliefs are diverse and complex; there are Christians who believe in the Nicene Creed and those who don't. Storm Rider 02:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
With the Islamic details moved up this morning (I believe by JamieHughes), the intro is starting to get long again. Is everyone fine with that, or...? archola 16:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Mentioning the atoning mission of Jesus is fine, but let's not tie ourselves down to any one particular theory of the atonement. That would be quite POV. KHM03 19:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
These views have been mainstream for 2000 years (see Orthodox Christianity for starters...or read up on the ransom view of the atonement), and are quite traditional. We can mention the atonement...that's great...but let's not favor any one particular interpretation of that doctrine or any one interpretation of the Scriptures. Some of the most brilliant minds in the civilized world have wrestled with these issues and not come up with one definitive answer. Let's be POV, accurate, and fair. Thanks... KHM03 20:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Sacrifice, yes. This is traditional and biblical. But what is the meaning of sacrifice? Sacrifice does not necessarily imply "satisfaction" or "propitiation" any more than "to atone" means, in and of itself, "to satisfy" or "to propitiate." This is an anachronism, reading Anselmian and later categories into what came long before. "To sacrifice" simply means "to sanctify by offering to God" and implies, when dealing with a living subject, that the subject is killed. -- Midnite Critic 05:38, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed the reference, referring to Mormons and JW's as examples of groups which reject the Nicene Creed and the Trinity (which pretty much comes to the same thing; I can't think of any group which accepts the Creed and rejects the Trinity, although many groups, among them trinitarian restorationists, would reject the notion of the binding nature of the creed while accepting the Trinity and therefore, the creed's contents, at least with regard to the statements concerning the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) and dropping the reference to restorationists. Most restorationist groups, such as the Churches of Christ, Christian Churches, Disciples of Christ, et. al., are in fact trinitarians. However, the Latter Day Saint strand is not, at least the Mormon Church and its offshoots are not (Not sure where the Community of Christ, formerly the RLDS Church, stands; they may be). The SDA Church is trinitarian, if not exactly creedal, and not restorationist. JW's are not trinitarian, creedal, OR "restorationist". -- Midnite Critic 05:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
"I can't think of any group which accepts the Creed and rejects the Trinity,"
The Community of Christ, formerly the RLDS church, is trinitarian. Baptists are traditionally non-creedal, but are Trinitarian.
We are discussing what churches believe, but I would still offer that what chruches teach and what members believe are two different things. I believe it is always best to clarify what churches teach while leaving room for what Christians believe. I am not sure I know many people who believe every single doctrine taught by a given church; very few actually know all the doctrines of their respective churches. When we only describe what churches believe, we ignore the actual beliefs of many, many Christians.
When discussing LDS theology, one must be careful. They worship one God, the Father. They approach the Father through his Son, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit, the third member of the Godhead teaches all mankind the truthfulness of the Gospel of Christ. He is the second comforter promised by Christ. There is one Godhead manifested in three separate, distinct personages, but one in purpose. They do not believe in creeds and view them as the doctrines of men created by men. Scripture teaches, but he Spirit reveals the truth to mankind. They/we seek to be as Peter when Christ said, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. They appear subtle differences, but there definitely differences. Storm Rider 07:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Intro has
Aside from being a tortured sentence that sorely needs at least a couple of "that"s or, better yet, needs to be split up, the Nicene Creed does not say acceptance of Jesus is a condition of being saved. It may, in one of its forms, say he came to save people - but it does not say acceptance is needed. This is a presentation of beliefs of one variety of Xty - and does not even accurately reflect the beliefs of the single variety that has the most members (Catholicism) -- JimWae 00:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Where does it say belief or acceptance is a condition of salvation? Catholics do not believe acceptance is either sufficient or necessary -- JimWae 01:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Not all Christians have even heard of the Nicene creed nor does it represent the prime definition of Christianity, just because the Nicene creed might not literally say that we must accept Christ, (Though considering it says "we believe in" one would think acceptance of Christ would follow) does not mean Christianity does not. Also, belief about something does not imply accepting something, but belief in something does, if you believe in someone to help you, you are accepting that the person will help you, if you believe that you will get a good grade on a math test, you are accepting the idea that you will get a good grade on your math test, I don't see the problem here. Also, the Bible never specifies that formally joining a church is a pre-requisite to being saved, it better not be, or I am dead....quite literally, I assure you. Homestarmy 01:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The intro uses "right hand" of God -- this is a needless additional "detail" to saying Jesus is in heaven with God. It assumes God is bilateral - something few theologians assert with any certainty. Perhaps this is just figurative language. If so, it may be appropriate for Sunday school & parables, but it does not belong in an introduction to a basic encyclopedia article about Jesus -- scare quotes or not -- JimWae 20:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Since there is revision of this article being done, I would like to suggest some minor changes to this paragraph. First of all, it is problematic to state that Jesus was "a part" of the Holy Trinity. One might say that He was a "member" of the Holy Trinity or the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. The Trinity is not divided into "parts." Secondly, mention should be made in this section about the orthodox Christian doctrine of the two natures in Christ. This does not have to be detailed, but it makes the difference clearer between those who affirm the deity of Christ and those who deny it. drboisclair 15:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
And I've copied previous discussion on the third paragraph to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro. The archive dates back to Jan. 8, when the paragraph was added to the intro.
I don't mean to jump the gun, but when we are ready to move on, we might want to review the previous discussion. archola 10:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
A few introductory comments. The paragraph as it stands represents a compromise. We tried to come up with a description broad enough to cover all forms of Christianity. The reference to the Nicene Creed is mine; it acknowledges the historic and ongoing distinction between Nicene Christianity and its descendents on the one hand, and other forms of Christianity on the other. It also acknowledges that the beliefs expressed in the creed are widely, but not universally, accepted. Since "other forms of Christianity" includes the various historical lost Christianities (citation: Bart D. Ehrman, Talk:Jesus#Bart Ehrman), it also provides a link to the previous paragraph's discussion of historicity. "Other forms" also refers to modern Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentacostals, and other bodies outside of the Nicene tradition, as well as some Christians outside of organized religion. archola 17:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
PS:The full title of Ehrman's book mentioned above is The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. archola 17:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a debate over interpretations of the Nicene Creed, but the reference to John 3:16 seems redundant. Or at least confusing: it's not clear what's being cited to the creed, and what is being cited to the Gospel. (Of course, the creed itself is based on an interpretation of the Gospels, as well as the rest of the New Testament. "Life and Teachings" starts with Some other relevant verses, so John 3:16 might fit in better there.) Arch O. La 18:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I should clarify that the Nicene Creed citation was meant to cover everything between "Most Christians" and "Other Christians." After proposing the compromise, I stayed out of the debate over the finer points of theology re:atonement, salvation, sanctification, justification, et al. I'm a Lutheran, but CTSWyneken is better qualified to explain the Lutheran position than this lay believer. Arch O. La 02:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll not get into the debate here until the 2nd paragraph is settled. Since I haven't read the discussion, it really isn't fair for me to wade in, much less suggest, much, much less cbange anything. -- CTSWyneken 02:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I have made an emendation to the "Christian view of Jesus": Jesus is a member rather than part of the Holy Trinity. According to orthodox Christianity the Holy Trinity is not divisible into parts. Each divine Person is totus Deus, each having the fulness of deity. It is not the orthodox Christian view that Jesus is a third of God while the Father and the Holy Spirit are the other two thirds. There is no denomination of Christendom which publically believes and teaches that the Holy Trinity is divided up into parts. Of course, anything is possible. I would like to assist in editing this article as I am a Christian theologian dedicated, though, to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I am glad, by the way, that the red neutrality flag has been removed. We want to try to make this article the best it can be in the greatest online encyclopedia. With all respect to all. drboisclair 01:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That said, I doubt there will be much quibble over this one word. Arch O. La 03:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC) Addendum: God is beyond human understanding, and thus beyond words. Any words we use are only true in an approximate way, since, unlike God, language is not absolute. That said, some words are more true than others. Arch O. La 04:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraph has been repeatedly restored - usually with only the comment "restore compromise"
I presume the first sentence of the paragraph is intended to be parsed as such
and NOT
With 2 "and"s in there and neither a comma nor a "that" to mark the parallelism, the sentence is at least syntactically awkward. But my main objection is not to syntax - I mention it only to point out how "stuck on" the last part of the sentence is.
1. The Nicene Creed does NOT say that "acceptance of Jesus as Saviour saves one from sin ( John 3:16)" -- rather it says that Jesus came to save people - no condition is mentioned. (Whether the condition is understood as necessary, sufficient, or anything else, it is still a condition.) The reverter has contended it IS in the Nicene Creed, or implied, or something... -- but it is NOT there, and any revert based on such "reasoning" is POV and Original Research.
2. The paragraph repeats "Nicene Creed" and as such, forms a bracket around things in-between, and has been repeatedly restored to keep that bracketing. If things in the middle are NOT about the Nicene Creed, then such should be explicit.
3. Catholics & several other groups (Greek Orthodox too, I think) do NOT believe that acceptance of Jesus is a condition (neither necessary nor sufficient) of salvation. Catholic theologians had even "invented" Limbo for those who were neither baptized, nor had accepted Jesus. According to this view, until Jesus, all good people went to Limbo. For centuries afterwards, with most of the world never hearing of Jesus, Limbo would probably still have been FAR more populated than heaven. Even now, more conceptions end in spontaneous abortion than birth. While the RCs no longer teach Limbo, they do still teach that those who never "accepted" Jesus can be saved. The RCs seem ready to even say they are already in heaven. The RCs also teach that those adults who lead a "just life" yet never "accept Jesus", can also be saved.
4. Even IF the majority of Xians belonged to churches that held this John 3:16 position, it would be only a bare majority (and it is NOT clear even that such IS the case). The introduction is needlessly introducing an issue about which there is no general agreement in Xty - and gives NO indication that there is contention on this issue. This topic, not being generally agreed upon, does not belong in the introduction - John 3:16's being "stuck on" is evidence that it is there mostly either to satisfy someone's desire to profess his/her faith or to engage in some Bible-thumping. It is misleading to present only the predominantly Protestant view as the view of "most Christians" (there is also other distinctly Protestant vocabulary in the paragraph and article, btw, but that's for another day). The proportion of Xians who believe the first part of the sentence is in no way commensurate with the proportion of those who believe the last part - and it is misleading NOT to point this out.
5. The clause in NOT really about Jesus, but rather about a religious relationship to Jesus. Not even the "Religious articles" on Jesus even mention this condition for salvation. This is supposed to be primarily a biography article about Jesus - not one about what certain sects teach about how one is supposed to relate to him.
6. Only one person has repeatedly restored my removal of that part of the sentence. I take it that is because I have already persuaded people here that it does not belong. Just because 4 or 5 people agreed on a compromise one week does not mean that the text is to remain unaltered despite further discussion. Another sentence has already been added on.
7. Why does it take a non-Christian to point this out?
I think I have amply demonstrated why this clause does not belong in this sentence in the introduction. This John 3:16 view is not agreed upon in anywhere near the same proportion as the other views in the sentence - it is quite likely not even the position of the Xian churches to which the majority of Xians belong. It is time to see who is fighting against the real consensus
-- JimWae 07:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The compromise was meant to include both Nicene and non-Nicene views within the broader "Christian views." I have proposed that the reference to John 3:16 be moved to under "Life and Teachings, based on the Gospels." Beyond that, the paragraph was essentially designed by commitee, and the syntax could use some work. Arch O. La 18:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
But the majority view affirms the essense at least of the Nicene Creed, and John 3:16, right? Where's the problem? Homestarmy 23:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Nearly all Xians assert the specific parts of the Nicene Creed mentioned in the article (although probably less assert the virgin birth & that too should be reviewed - but it is part of most Xian doctrine, even if the members do not believe). Approximately half of the Xians in the world are Catholic, and they do NOT interpret John 3:16 so literally - so anyone can do the math. Then there's the problem with what "accept Jesus" means. If I accept he lived & that he was generally a good guy, am I saved too? The intro should state ONLY what nearly all Xians agree on.-- JimWae 23:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
??? there is no link between the Nicene Creed & John 3:16. The article seems to have confused you on this - which is why it needs to be changed. When the intro presents Xian views, it should present ONLY what nearly all Xians agree on - without using vague language. -- JimWae 00:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
But now your saying that no Catholic agrees with John 3:16, correct? Homestarmy 01:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Last sentence in the third paragraph reads "Most Christians also believe that Jesus fulfilled Bible prophecy." The word ASLO should be removed since the previous sentence applies to SOME Christians but not ALL or MOST.
Stuartyeates 17:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
That's not how I read it. Sorry. Gator (talk) 18:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Archive updated March 3, 2006 to include content from the last 2 weeks. Arch O. La 03:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)