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I reverted the removal of this tag. The edit summary said "(→External links - Jesus did not found the religion that was Paul and Peter inspired by his teachings, hence it is they who need to be categorised and not Jesus, same as haile Selassie who was remov)" but Matthew 16-18 says; "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." which I maintain makes Jesus the founder of the Christian church. -- BenBurch 00:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm the least person the start a debate, trust me, but while reading I found startling evidence that Jesus was not moral and not wise. The Gadareth swine and the fig tree is a good example of those. ( PRhyu 11:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC))
Folks, the only issue is this: Wikipedia talk pages are notmeantfor debates or discussionsof personal views but ways of improving the article.PRhyu, with all due respect, please familiarize yourself with our policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
There have been large changes, with no discussion, to the Genealogy section, the Arrest, Trial section, the sources on Jesus, Possible earlier texts, and the Questions of reliability sections. Here are my issues:
Because none of these changes went through consensus, and because they are controversial I am coming to talk first. I believe that all of the recent changes should be reverted, but I wanted to explain myself here, and give the editor a place to discuss and propose changed on talk. I also wanted to make sure that other editors were on the same page as I. So what does everyone think? Is it ok to restore the longstanding, sourced content that was recently removed/changed with POV commentary (generally speaking)?-
Andrew c 14:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
lets talk about the specific updates and see how can improve the article. Wyatt 19:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
These changes seem very poorly written. Readability went way down. I see no reason why the current section, which has been refined for years and reached its current form through vigorous debate and consensus, should be altered so drastically. — Aiden 05:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Wyatt, I hope you win this fight, even though you're wrong. As soon as you can cite Eusebius and scholarly interpretation of the gospels in this section, I can add material from historical Jesus. Scholars of the historical critical method, too, have some "accepted information" that would be fun to add. Jonathan Tweet 00:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I added this text, and its not original research, but could use more citations and also could be reduced dramatically. This article is about jesus, and its relevant to say why the jews don't believe and talk about the controversy about the messianic propherices. Wyatt 16:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The gospel of John is dated within the 1st century also. There are 12 disciples and 70+ apostles, and its more accurate to say the disciple peter. I also used the ESV text, which is a more colloquial translation. Wyatt 16:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, onto the specifics of this edit/revert.
1.The gospel of John is not dated to 65 by the majority of mainstream scholarship. This section is on mainstream scholarship, so when we have college level introductory texts by Ehrman and Brown saying John was written 90-95, and that they and most scholars think Mark, not John, is the earliest Gospel, there is no reason to add the Gospel of John to the sentence that formerly said The earliest extant texts which refer to Jesus are Paul's letters. Not only is there NO SOURCE for this claim, it simply is not representative of the majority scholarly view.
2.There were changes made to the section about the capture in Gethsemane that worked to harmonize the gospels. We have discussed this in greater detail in the past (its in the archives). The section on Jesus' life in the gospels is just that, a section on Jesus' life in the Gospel. It is meant to give a plot summary of 4 different books that tell similar stories. Generally, this section covers material that is found in all 4 gospels. If something is only found in the synoptics, it is presented as such. If something is only found in one gospel, it is mentioned as such. The changes Jesus rebuked Peter, and healed the soldier's ear while stating "For all who take the sword will perish by the sword." ( Matthew 26:52). are simply wrong. Look at the citation. In Matthew, Peter's name is not mentioned, the healing is not mentioned (the rebuking IS mentioned). The footnote covers the variations to the tale. However, the changes present the story by harmonizing pieces found in 4 different books into one account. It is fine to say what each gospel is saying, but it is original research, or simply not what this section is about, when we 'harmonize' the texts in this manner. The previous version was much more accurate, and follows the guidelines we had previous had consensus on when it came to the Jesus' life according to the Gospels section.
3.I see no reason to change the bible version used in the article. In fact, the citations throughout out use the NIV, so it makes the most sense to use NIV for consistency. Again, what bible translation to use has been discussed in the archives. If you would like to make a proposal to change the bible translation, feel free to do so, but broad consensus to change should be gathered first, and the change should be made consistently through the article. The recent changes inserted phrasings that were not found in the citation. So imagine how a user would feel if they read one translation, and clicked on the link to read more and found a different translation? I personally don't care that much what translation we use (I personally prefer the NRSV), but I understand that the NIV was agreed upon in the past, and that consistency is important here.
So for those following along, the 3 above comments are dealing with this diff. Because there is no consensus for Whoutz's recent changes, and because they are disputed by me, I propose that we restore the longstanding version of this article until Whoutz's changes have more support, or we reach a compromise. - Andrew c 21:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be improved towards FA status, so i vote that sections be revised. I understand that voting is evil, but im just trying to follow wiki guidelines so my edits stick! Wyatt 22:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to propose the change of the opening part of this article where it says, "...(Jesus) is the fictional figure of Christianity."
This I believe is biased since you are assuming from your POV that he didn't exist. People do believe that he exists and so stating that he's fictional is biased toward the people who don't believe he was around. I suggest changing it to something like, "some believe that Jesus was only a fictional character while others believe that he did exist."
That'll make sure that it keep a nuetral point and both sides of the discussion is covered fairly allowing the reader to come to his/her own conclusion.
Lucky Foot 19:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
A section on "Atheist views" is being added and deleted or partially deleted. Do we really need such a section? The atheist view is obviously that Jesus was neither God, nor the 'son of God' nor inspired by God - because there is no God. It's so obvious, I don't think it needs to be said. We don't have "atheist views" sections on Muhammad, or Zoroaster, or Krishna. As for the claims that atheists think artistic depictions are inaccurate, or that he was an historically unimportant figure - these views are not specific to atheism at all. Indeed there's no reason why an atheist might not think some pictures are accurate. Paul B 11:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. What is written above is atheist views about a God - not jesus. They are irrelevant.
2. All other religions have sections. Atheists should have one as well. Most Atheists have views about Jesus. It is plainly bias to attempt to suppress them solely because they unfavourable.
3. Views not being specific to atheists is not a valid argument because there are views held about Jesus by different releigions that are not specific to them eiether. The atheist views are not represented anywhere else on this article, so it is plainly deceitful to try to make out that they are nothing new to the article.
4. You can not source a claim that Jesus was not considered important at the time because there are no contemporary mentions of him. The Gospels were written long after he died, and only by his supporters - nodody else.
-- Dr Lisboa 11:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
CORRECT - are these atheist views is all that matters. All atheists don't have the same views of Jesus. Neither do all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists. These are some of the prominent views. They have jsut as much right to be here as the views of all other religious persuasions. -- Dr Lisboa 12:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to make a disturbing comment. After
Dr Lisboa reached her 3 reverts, there was very quickly an edit in the same direction by an editor called
Triffid3, whose
contribs page indicates that of the 3 pages he or she has edited, only one has been made to a page which Dr. Lisboa wasn't interested in at the same time, within a matter of hours (and that was the only edit Triffid3 made before Dr. Lisboa joined wikipedia). It's worth noting that we may be dealing with a sockpuppet here, although I really don't know much about detecting them, so I figured I'd submit that possibility to the community. There may be some reason why it's obviously not the case.
TJ 12:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
What hypocrisy ! You write to me that I should assume good faith and then, as you lose the arguement start making allegations against peoeple. One rule for you and another rule for others is it ? Several devout Christians all acting together - meat puppetry ? Shall I make that allegation against you, or shall we do as you ORIGINALLY claimed and assume good faith ???-- Dr Lisboa 12:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Atheists have religious views just like anyone else does. They constitute a group of people just like any religious group is. Don't try to give atheists second rate status.
2. Atheists don't have a religious book, so there is none they are able to quote. These are a range of the sceptical atheists views of Jesus.
3. What is written in the atheist section is very plainly not already in the article. Please be factual.
-- Dr Lisboa 12:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Many of the views ascribed in the article to different religions are not shared by everyone of those religions. So the fact that not all atheists share the same views is irrelevant and inconsistent.
2. Not all information has to be sourced on Wikipedia. No sources are provided for the views of different religoions. All we have is quotes from old religious books. People of different religions do not all share the views written in their religious book. If you claim that sources are needed then you will have to get surveys of religious views for each of the religions.
3. Nobody has claimed that atheism is a religion. It is a religious view.
4. Atheists have a lot of shared beliefs, about : a lot of the nonsense written in the Bible, the naive adulation of Jesus, the fallacies written about him, the obvious falseness of claims of his performing miracles.
All we have sen so far is extreme Christians attempt to suppress opposing views by going from one reason to another every time it is pointed out how false their reasoning is. Bias is against Wikipedia rules.-- Dr Lisboa 13:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. It is ridiculously false to claim that it is "splitting" hairs to point out that there are hugely different views within each different religions : Protestant v Catholic, Sunni v Shia, all the different Christian sects, - be serious. Please don't make obviously false points. So there being different views amongst atheists is a spurious one.
2. Being fearful of the atheist section becoming huge is also a stupid suggestion. If it becomes huge then complain about it. Don't delete a small paragraph in its entirety based on some false claim. Christians have more extensive views abolyut Jesus than atheists do. You aren't suggesting that section be deleted in case it becomes too big. That's obvious double standards.
3. The section does not concern the historical accuracy of the Bible. That would go on to the Gospels article.
4. "Some say he was simply a man who had legends built up around him. Others say he never existed at all and that the Gospels are fabricated out of whole cloth. Still others claim he is an amalgamation of many different parts of other so-called "savior myths."" - good points, put them in. I see nothing in the article that suggests any of this despite it probably being true. That is sheer bias.
5. Other views are referenced using their religious books. Atheists don't have one. Surveys are the only way that views of Jesus can be properly be shown, but there is none of that for any releigion.
6. Whether atheists views are true or significant is irrelevant. The sections aims at detiling their views not their validity. Atheists belive that Christians views of Jesus are unfounded and irrelevant. Shall we exclude those as well ?
-- Dr Lisboa 14:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Be fair. Let the atheists have their own section, just like the rest of us do. -- Stalvione 16:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. "Hindus and buddhists do because they raise interesting questions within that context." - interesting to you. That's a POV and is not allowed on Wikipedia. You're attempting bias. Atheists bring up far more interesting questions -such as is most of what is written about Jesus largely a complete load of rubbish.
2. The section is a collection of commonly held atheistic views. Those views don't have to be accurate. They don't have to be interesting. They don't have to be facts.
3. The other religions rely on their holy books for "views". Atheists don't have one ! Holy books do not contain views of all people with that religion. Only surveys would properly represent people's views. Not one of the sections is backed up by survery results. So none of them have proper references. A University press article would still be just one's person's views. It doesn't make it any more valid.
4. If you think there is a better wording, then suggest one here rather than keep on trying to suppress viewpoints solely because you don't like them.
-- Dr Lisboa 16:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. The views do not have to raise theological questions for that religion. That much of what is written about Jesus being false is a theological question.
2. You can't attribute atheistic views to any specific books because there is none. Quoting specific atheists does not make them any more valid.
3. What is in a holy book and what one or two people think of what is written in that holy book does not make it properly does not mean it represents all or even most people's views of that religion.
YOu simply don't like atheistic views and have been going from one reason to another to suppress them. -- Dr Lisboa 17:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
3: That's true. That's why the article as it stands does not say that the content of that holy book represents the views of that religion. What it does state is what the relevant texts say. It doesn't say that that's what all members of that religion say.
You end this comment with a foundationless personal attack. I've asked you quite a few times to stop making personal attacks against myself, and all the other editors. I'm out of patience, so I will now warn you: If you make another unfounded attack against myself or any other editor on here, I will file an RFA against you. TJ 17:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all differ in their views just as atheists do. So that's not a valid excuse at all for trying to deny atheists a section on their views. You have also selectively quoted the WP:Attribution page. You are required to put "citation needed" if you claim that something isn't true. You are not supposed to delete the whole section solely because you don't like it. As for being unfounded, Christian views of Jesus are unfounded and ridiculous. However, what goes in the "views" section doesn't have to be founded.
It's good to see that there's one tolerant Christian amongst you. I thought that was what Christianity was about. Judging from what I see here, it rarely is. -- Dr Lisboa 18:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
To describe it as simplistic is ridiculous. It's not supposed to be complicated. You are blatantly misquoting what is in the article because it is NOT already there. The section does not concern the historicity of Jesus. It concerns atheist views. They do not have to be historically correct to be views. If you don't want to act the troll don't make false or irrelevant claims. -- Dr Lisboa 19:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
All you have to do is read the section to see how reduntant, obvious and unnessesary it is. Just clear your head and read it through. It's just so stupid for it to be there.
By definition, atheists reject the divinity and supernatural aspects of Jesus and, by extension, any miracles attributed to him. Some even question whether he existed at all. Some believe that if he did was just a normal person of little consequence to most of his contemporaries, and that his words and actions were embellished after his death either deliberately to promote a specific belief, or through a gradual absorption of mythical motifs. Also by definition, atheists do not consider the Christian Bible the "Word of God", and thus assume that the books of the Bible, including the four canonical Gospels, were both written and chosen for inclusion in the canon absent any supernatural influences. Many people (not just atheists) also point out that Jesus' appearance probably did not match the caucasian image that has been portrayed in religious art from Medieval Europe and, more recently, in modern media. (Note: No consensus, and lack of references.) ross nixon 02:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
For those who are interested, I've reported Dr Lisboa for violating the 3RR here.. If anyone would like to make comments there for or against, please do so. (It's worth noting that looking at the history of her page shows that she's deleted past issues similar to this, which appears to be a pattern in her edits.) TJ 13:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
User:TheologyJohn has been breaching the very same rules that she is complaining about. She is also making false claims about the 3RR rule being breached. There have only been three reverts. The other instance was adding a paragraph that had been removed many edits before. She is also : attempting meat puppetry by trying to bring in known allies to support her, failing to support her contentions with references, failing to assume good faith whilst at the same time hypocritically claiming to others that they should, and she has been attempting to impose bias on an article. All of these are inbreach of Wikipedia guidelines. She is using this allegation as yet another means of suppressing opposing views and imposing religious bias. -- Dr Lisboa 13:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I've responded to all of these claims, leaving aside some of the comments that are irrelevant to policy and only personal attacks (which I would consider a waste of time, as I don't think any other editors take them seriously), over at the noticeboard entry. TJ 14:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The other statements are very relevant to breaches of policy. All other editors have not claimed that they don't take them seriously. -- Dr Lisboa 14:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Note that user:Tintorini seems to have materialised into being just as Dr Lisboa has reached his/her 3R limit. Paul B 12:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I registered long before this dispute, as can be seen from contributions. False claims are considered as personal attacks. -- Tintorini 13:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry - I see that Dr Lisboa has been blocked. One of Lisboa's previous "revert friends" on this page was user:Stalvione, whose only previous edit, over a month ago, had been to the Tintoretto page [1]. The new editor "Tintorini" claims to come from Padua (Tintoretto's home). Paul B 13:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The current version reads:
By definition, atheists reject the divinity and supernatural aspects of Jesus and, by extension, any miracles attributed to him. Some even question whether he existed at all. Some believe that if he did was just a normal person of little consequence to most of his contemporaries, and that his words and actions were embellished after his death either deliberately to promote a specific belief, or through a gradual absorption of mythical motifs. Also by definition, atheists do not consider the Christian Bible the "Word of God", and thus assume that the books of the Bible, including the four canonical Gospels, were both written and chosen for inclusion in the canon absent any supernatural influences. Many people (not just atheists) also point out that Jesus' appearance probably did not match the caucasian image that has been portrayed in religious art from Medieval Europe and, more recently, in modern media.
I still think there are so many problems with this section that it us useless:
As it is, the section is neither useful nor compatible with Wikipedia policies.-- Stephan Schulz 22:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Attempting to object on the basis that some atheist beliefs are not uniqute to atheists is totally inconsistent with the rest of the article. Throughout the views section different religions are shown to share the same views about Jesus. You haven't objected to those. Another case of one rule for you another rule for others. If you delete the atheist section I will delete the other sections because precisely the same objection applies to them. YOu don't like the section solely because it is negative towards Jesus. -- Dr Lisboa 09:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The section should not be removed. Nobody has come up with a single cogent and consistent reason for getting rid of it. Attempting to suppress opposing views is bias and is in breach of WP rules. Some editors have problems with it solely because of intolerance. Every time extreme Christians are shown to be wrong that try some other spurious reason because they don't like what atheists believe. WP is not a democracy. Numbers do not decide whether or not something is edited. Reasoned arguments decide it. The argument is solidly in favour of inclusion. -- Dr Lisboa 09:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Their reason haven't been cogent inthe slightest. They have been full of fallacies and inconsistencies. For example, you claim that atheist views are not specific to atheism. Yet the article states that Islam views Jesus as a messiah, just as Christians do. Their views aren't unique. Yet tou don't propose that being deleted. This is one of many examples of incosistencies. Atheists don't all share the same views, but neither do Christians,Moslems and Buddhists. TRy to be consistent - not one rule for you another rule for others. -- Dr Lisboa 11:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Athiest views have no place on this page. The views of various religions on Jesus are basically dogma (so therfor relevant) while the Athiest views are not a collective viewpoint. If you include Athiest views then you have to include the Plumbers Union views or the Garbage collectors Unions views as they are just as relevant. The majority viewpoint is to exclude isn't it? Accept the consensus. Wayne 15:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
How DARE we use BCE and CE here, how dare we! This is the page for JESUS CHRIST! America is a Judeo-Christian nation, and despite what some whiny Europeans want to believe, this really is the AMERICAN encyclopedia. We are living in the WEST, and our culture was founded upon Judeo-Christian values! How dare you try to insult our history by inserting liberal dating notations into this article, HOW DARE YOU!!!
Spotswood Dudley 19:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Buddy I'm a conservative too, but you don't need to throw such a fit when somebody says something you disagree with. This sort of behavior reflects badly on you and the conservaive movement in general.
TYPING IN CAPS DOESN'T MAKE PEOPLE LISTEN TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. -- Deskana (ya rly) 15:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I recently left another message here, but it seems to have dissapeared and is nowhere to be found in the archived pages...I suppose my words must have been erased by a bureaucrat or an even higher entity. I have no idea why, as I didn't write anything even close to as controversial as my first message. As for all of you telling me to search the archives, I'll have you know that I have, and that for the most part I am personally involved in the talks about this very issue. In the archives I once called for a vote to change the era notations to BC/AD, and the vote came out positive. Nevertheless, nothing changed, due to the massive amounts of liberals who have nothing better to do but sit in front of a computer all day.
Now, assuming my words are not erased from history this time around, I would like to address some of the points that my detractors have expressed. As for typing in caps, I did so because I felt strongly about the issue at hand and wanted attention to be drawn to my words. Deskana has proven that I succeeded in that regard. Now, because this post is getting rather long, I shall only refute one other person's point today. I choose to refute Stephan Schulz, as he is mistaken about the comparison he makes between liberals and extreme Christians.
Now I know, Mr. Schulz, that you aren't a master of scripture, but I still feel that I have to be somewhat stern about proving you wrong. The whole New Testament is NOT about a group of unshaved men in sandals, this is nothing more than blasphemy intended to provoke Christians. First off, it is true that we do not know definitively what Jesus or his disciples looked like, but it is probably safe to assume they had beards, as this was the custom at the time. However, to say they were unshaven would be a mistake. They kept their beards in check and under control.
As for Jesus being a Jew, what of it? He would have to be! Had Jesus never arrived, all Christians would be Jews! Only after Jesus was crucified did Christianity come to be. As for talking about pacifism and turning the other cheek,this is true. This does not mean, however, that men everywhere should never raise a fist against those who wish to kill them. Only in situations Jesus faced while on Earth, with the exception of the crucifixion(which is specific to Jesus), should these rules be followed. And as for demolishing a valuable trading place and peaching against wealth, and in favor of paying taxes, it is important not to twist these incidents into support for the modern welfare state and communism. I would elaborate but I have already written far too much, so if you wish me to elaborate, say so and I shall gladly oblige. Until then, I shall depart. Spotswood Dudley 23:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The vandalism saying Jesus is an E.T. is still there. Yet when I view the history, it says it was removed. 68.55.183.136 23:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I see that it is still there and I can do nothing about it seeing as it's locked.
156.34.250.93
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 75 | ← | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | Archive 81 | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | → | Archive 85 |
I reverted the removal of this tag. The edit summary said "(→External links - Jesus did not found the religion that was Paul and Peter inspired by his teachings, hence it is they who need to be categorised and not Jesus, same as haile Selassie who was remov)" but Matthew 16-18 says; "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." which I maintain makes Jesus the founder of the Christian church. -- BenBurch 00:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm the least person the start a debate, trust me, but while reading I found startling evidence that Jesus was not moral and not wise. The Gadareth swine and the fig tree is a good example of those. ( PRhyu 11:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC))
Folks, the only issue is this: Wikipedia talk pages are notmeantfor debates or discussionsof personal views but ways of improving the article.PRhyu, with all due respect, please familiarize yourself with our policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
There have been large changes, with no discussion, to the Genealogy section, the Arrest, Trial section, the sources on Jesus, Possible earlier texts, and the Questions of reliability sections. Here are my issues:
Because none of these changes went through consensus, and because they are controversial I am coming to talk first. I believe that all of the recent changes should be reverted, but I wanted to explain myself here, and give the editor a place to discuss and propose changed on talk. I also wanted to make sure that other editors were on the same page as I. So what does everyone think? Is it ok to restore the longstanding, sourced content that was recently removed/changed with POV commentary (generally speaking)?-
Andrew c 14:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
lets talk about the specific updates and see how can improve the article. Wyatt 19:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
These changes seem very poorly written. Readability went way down. I see no reason why the current section, which has been refined for years and reached its current form through vigorous debate and consensus, should be altered so drastically. — Aiden 05:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Wyatt, I hope you win this fight, even though you're wrong. As soon as you can cite Eusebius and scholarly interpretation of the gospels in this section, I can add material from historical Jesus. Scholars of the historical critical method, too, have some "accepted information" that would be fun to add. Jonathan Tweet 00:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I added this text, and its not original research, but could use more citations and also could be reduced dramatically. This article is about jesus, and its relevant to say why the jews don't believe and talk about the controversy about the messianic propherices. Wyatt 16:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The gospel of John is dated within the 1st century also. There are 12 disciples and 70+ apostles, and its more accurate to say the disciple peter. I also used the ESV text, which is a more colloquial translation. Wyatt 16:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, onto the specifics of this edit/revert.
1.The gospel of John is not dated to 65 by the majority of mainstream scholarship. This section is on mainstream scholarship, so when we have college level introductory texts by Ehrman and Brown saying John was written 90-95, and that they and most scholars think Mark, not John, is the earliest Gospel, there is no reason to add the Gospel of John to the sentence that formerly said The earliest extant texts which refer to Jesus are Paul's letters. Not only is there NO SOURCE for this claim, it simply is not representative of the majority scholarly view.
2.There were changes made to the section about the capture in Gethsemane that worked to harmonize the gospels. We have discussed this in greater detail in the past (its in the archives). The section on Jesus' life in the gospels is just that, a section on Jesus' life in the Gospel. It is meant to give a plot summary of 4 different books that tell similar stories. Generally, this section covers material that is found in all 4 gospels. If something is only found in the synoptics, it is presented as such. If something is only found in one gospel, it is mentioned as such. The changes Jesus rebuked Peter, and healed the soldier's ear while stating "For all who take the sword will perish by the sword." ( Matthew 26:52). are simply wrong. Look at the citation. In Matthew, Peter's name is not mentioned, the healing is not mentioned (the rebuking IS mentioned). The footnote covers the variations to the tale. However, the changes present the story by harmonizing pieces found in 4 different books into one account. It is fine to say what each gospel is saying, but it is original research, or simply not what this section is about, when we 'harmonize' the texts in this manner. The previous version was much more accurate, and follows the guidelines we had previous had consensus on when it came to the Jesus' life according to the Gospels section.
3.I see no reason to change the bible version used in the article. In fact, the citations throughout out use the NIV, so it makes the most sense to use NIV for consistency. Again, what bible translation to use has been discussed in the archives. If you would like to make a proposal to change the bible translation, feel free to do so, but broad consensus to change should be gathered first, and the change should be made consistently through the article. The recent changes inserted phrasings that were not found in the citation. So imagine how a user would feel if they read one translation, and clicked on the link to read more and found a different translation? I personally don't care that much what translation we use (I personally prefer the NRSV), but I understand that the NIV was agreed upon in the past, and that consistency is important here.
So for those following along, the 3 above comments are dealing with this diff. Because there is no consensus for Whoutz's recent changes, and because they are disputed by me, I propose that we restore the longstanding version of this article until Whoutz's changes have more support, or we reach a compromise. - Andrew c 21:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be improved towards FA status, so i vote that sections be revised. I understand that voting is evil, but im just trying to follow wiki guidelines so my edits stick! Wyatt 22:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to propose the change of the opening part of this article where it says, "...(Jesus) is the fictional figure of Christianity."
This I believe is biased since you are assuming from your POV that he didn't exist. People do believe that he exists and so stating that he's fictional is biased toward the people who don't believe he was around. I suggest changing it to something like, "some believe that Jesus was only a fictional character while others believe that he did exist."
That'll make sure that it keep a nuetral point and both sides of the discussion is covered fairly allowing the reader to come to his/her own conclusion.
Lucky Foot 19:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
A section on "Atheist views" is being added and deleted or partially deleted. Do we really need such a section? The atheist view is obviously that Jesus was neither God, nor the 'son of God' nor inspired by God - because there is no God. It's so obvious, I don't think it needs to be said. We don't have "atheist views" sections on Muhammad, or Zoroaster, or Krishna. As for the claims that atheists think artistic depictions are inaccurate, or that he was an historically unimportant figure - these views are not specific to atheism at all. Indeed there's no reason why an atheist might not think some pictures are accurate. Paul B 11:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. What is written above is atheist views about a God - not jesus. They are irrelevant.
2. All other religions have sections. Atheists should have one as well. Most Atheists have views about Jesus. It is plainly bias to attempt to suppress them solely because they unfavourable.
3. Views not being specific to atheists is not a valid argument because there are views held about Jesus by different releigions that are not specific to them eiether. The atheist views are not represented anywhere else on this article, so it is plainly deceitful to try to make out that they are nothing new to the article.
4. You can not source a claim that Jesus was not considered important at the time because there are no contemporary mentions of him. The Gospels were written long after he died, and only by his supporters - nodody else.
-- Dr Lisboa 11:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
CORRECT - are these atheist views is all that matters. All atheists don't have the same views of Jesus. Neither do all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists. These are some of the prominent views. They have jsut as much right to be here as the views of all other religious persuasions. -- Dr Lisboa 12:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to make a disturbing comment. After
Dr Lisboa reached her 3 reverts, there was very quickly an edit in the same direction by an editor called
Triffid3, whose
contribs page indicates that of the 3 pages he or she has edited, only one has been made to a page which Dr. Lisboa wasn't interested in at the same time, within a matter of hours (and that was the only edit Triffid3 made before Dr. Lisboa joined wikipedia). It's worth noting that we may be dealing with a sockpuppet here, although I really don't know much about detecting them, so I figured I'd submit that possibility to the community. There may be some reason why it's obviously not the case.
TJ 12:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
What hypocrisy ! You write to me that I should assume good faith and then, as you lose the arguement start making allegations against peoeple. One rule for you and another rule for others is it ? Several devout Christians all acting together - meat puppetry ? Shall I make that allegation against you, or shall we do as you ORIGINALLY claimed and assume good faith ???-- Dr Lisboa 12:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Atheists have religious views just like anyone else does. They constitute a group of people just like any religious group is. Don't try to give atheists second rate status.
2. Atheists don't have a religious book, so there is none they are able to quote. These are a range of the sceptical atheists views of Jesus.
3. What is written in the atheist section is very plainly not already in the article. Please be factual.
-- Dr Lisboa 12:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Many of the views ascribed in the article to different religions are not shared by everyone of those religions. So the fact that not all atheists share the same views is irrelevant and inconsistent.
2. Not all information has to be sourced on Wikipedia. No sources are provided for the views of different religoions. All we have is quotes from old religious books. People of different religions do not all share the views written in their religious book. If you claim that sources are needed then you will have to get surveys of religious views for each of the religions.
3. Nobody has claimed that atheism is a religion. It is a religious view.
4. Atheists have a lot of shared beliefs, about : a lot of the nonsense written in the Bible, the naive adulation of Jesus, the fallacies written about him, the obvious falseness of claims of his performing miracles.
All we have sen so far is extreme Christians attempt to suppress opposing views by going from one reason to another every time it is pointed out how false their reasoning is. Bias is against Wikipedia rules.-- Dr Lisboa 13:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. It is ridiculously false to claim that it is "splitting" hairs to point out that there are hugely different views within each different religions : Protestant v Catholic, Sunni v Shia, all the different Christian sects, - be serious. Please don't make obviously false points. So there being different views amongst atheists is a spurious one.
2. Being fearful of the atheist section becoming huge is also a stupid suggestion. If it becomes huge then complain about it. Don't delete a small paragraph in its entirety based on some false claim. Christians have more extensive views abolyut Jesus than atheists do. You aren't suggesting that section be deleted in case it becomes too big. That's obvious double standards.
3. The section does not concern the historical accuracy of the Bible. That would go on to the Gospels article.
4. "Some say he was simply a man who had legends built up around him. Others say he never existed at all and that the Gospels are fabricated out of whole cloth. Still others claim he is an amalgamation of many different parts of other so-called "savior myths."" - good points, put them in. I see nothing in the article that suggests any of this despite it probably being true. That is sheer bias.
5. Other views are referenced using their religious books. Atheists don't have one. Surveys are the only way that views of Jesus can be properly be shown, but there is none of that for any releigion.
6. Whether atheists views are true or significant is irrelevant. The sections aims at detiling their views not their validity. Atheists belive that Christians views of Jesus are unfounded and irrelevant. Shall we exclude those as well ?
-- Dr Lisboa 14:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Be fair. Let the atheists have their own section, just like the rest of us do. -- Stalvione 16:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. "Hindus and buddhists do because they raise interesting questions within that context." - interesting to you. That's a POV and is not allowed on Wikipedia. You're attempting bias. Atheists bring up far more interesting questions -such as is most of what is written about Jesus largely a complete load of rubbish.
2. The section is a collection of commonly held atheistic views. Those views don't have to be accurate. They don't have to be interesting. They don't have to be facts.
3. The other religions rely on their holy books for "views". Atheists don't have one ! Holy books do not contain views of all people with that religion. Only surveys would properly represent people's views. Not one of the sections is backed up by survery results. So none of them have proper references. A University press article would still be just one's person's views. It doesn't make it any more valid.
4. If you think there is a better wording, then suggest one here rather than keep on trying to suppress viewpoints solely because you don't like them.
-- Dr Lisboa 16:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
1. The views do not have to raise theological questions for that religion. That much of what is written about Jesus being false is a theological question.
2. You can't attribute atheistic views to any specific books because there is none. Quoting specific atheists does not make them any more valid.
3. What is in a holy book and what one or two people think of what is written in that holy book does not make it properly does not mean it represents all or even most people's views of that religion.
YOu simply don't like atheistic views and have been going from one reason to another to suppress them. -- Dr Lisboa 17:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
3: That's true. That's why the article as it stands does not say that the content of that holy book represents the views of that religion. What it does state is what the relevant texts say. It doesn't say that that's what all members of that religion say.
You end this comment with a foundationless personal attack. I've asked you quite a few times to stop making personal attacks against myself, and all the other editors. I'm out of patience, so I will now warn you: If you make another unfounded attack against myself or any other editor on here, I will file an RFA against you. TJ 17:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all differ in their views just as atheists do. So that's not a valid excuse at all for trying to deny atheists a section on their views. You have also selectively quoted the WP:Attribution page. You are required to put "citation needed" if you claim that something isn't true. You are not supposed to delete the whole section solely because you don't like it. As for being unfounded, Christian views of Jesus are unfounded and ridiculous. However, what goes in the "views" section doesn't have to be founded.
It's good to see that there's one tolerant Christian amongst you. I thought that was what Christianity was about. Judging from what I see here, it rarely is. -- Dr Lisboa 18:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
To describe it as simplistic is ridiculous. It's not supposed to be complicated. You are blatantly misquoting what is in the article because it is NOT already there. The section does not concern the historicity of Jesus. It concerns atheist views. They do not have to be historically correct to be views. If you don't want to act the troll don't make false or irrelevant claims. -- Dr Lisboa 19:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
All you have to do is read the section to see how reduntant, obvious and unnessesary it is. Just clear your head and read it through. It's just so stupid for it to be there.
By definition, atheists reject the divinity and supernatural aspects of Jesus and, by extension, any miracles attributed to him. Some even question whether he existed at all. Some believe that if he did was just a normal person of little consequence to most of his contemporaries, and that his words and actions were embellished after his death either deliberately to promote a specific belief, or through a gradual absorption of mythical motifs. Also by definition, atheists do not consider the Christian Bible the "Word of God", and thus assume that the books of the Bible, including the four canonical Gospels, were both written and chosen for inclusion in the canon absent any supernatural influences. Many people (not just atheists) also point out that Jesus' appearance probably did not match the caucasian image that has been portrayed in religious art from Medieval Europe and, more recently, in modern media. (Note: No consensus, and lack of references.) ross nixon 02:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
For those who are interested, I've reported Dr Lisboa for violating the 3RR here.. If anyone would like to make comments there for or against, please do so. (It's worth noting that looking at the history of her page shows that she's deleted past issues similar to this, which appears to be a pattern in her edits.) TJ 13:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
User:TheologyJohn has been breaching the very same rules that she is complaining about. She is also making false claims about the 3RR rule being breached. There have only been three reverts. The other instance was adding a paragraph that had been removed many edits before. She is also : attempting meat puppetry by trying to bring in known allies to support her, failing to support her contentions with references, failing to assume good faith whilst at the same time hypocritically claiming to others that they should, and she has been attempting to impose bias on an article. All of these are inbreach of Wikipedia guidelines. She is using this allegation as yet another means of suppressing opposing views and imposing religious bias. -- Dr Lisboa 13:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I've responded to all of these claims, leaving aside some of the comments that are irrelevant to policy and only personal attacks (which I would consider a waste of time, as I don't think any other editors take them seriously), over at the noticeboard entry. TJ 14:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The other statements are very relevant to breaches of policy. All other editors have not claimed that they don't take them seriously. -- Dr Lisboa 14:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Note that user:Tintorini seems to have materialised into being just as Dr Lisboa has reached his/her 3R limit. Paul B 12:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I registered long before this dispute, as can be seen from contributions. False claims are considered as personal attacks. -- Tintorini 13:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry - I see that Dr Lisboa has been blocked. One of Lisboa's previous "revert friends" on this page was user:Stalvione, whose only previous edit, over a month ago, had been to the Tintoretto page [1]. The new editor "Tintorini" claims to come from Padua (Tintoretto's home). Paul B 13:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The current version reads:
By definition, atheists reject the divinity and supernatural aspects of Jesus and, by extension, any miracles attributed to him. Some even question whether he existed at all. Some believe that if he did was just a normal person of little consequence to most of his contemporaries, and that his words and actions were embellished after his death either deliberately to promote a specific belief, or through a gradual absorption of mythical motifs. Also by definition, atheists do not consider the Christian Bible the "Word of God", and thus assume that the books of the Bible, including the four canonical Gospels, were both written and chosen for inclusion in the canon absent any supernatural influences. Many people (not just atheists) also point out that Jesus' appearance probably did not match the caucasian image that has been portrayed in religious art from Medieval Europe and, more recently, in modern media.
I still think there are so many problems with this section that it us useless:
As it is, the section is neither useful nor compatible with Wikipedia policies.-- Stephan Schulz 22:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Attempting to object on the basis that some atheist beliefs are not uniqute to atheists is totally inconsistent with the rest of the article. Throughout the views section different religions are shown to share the same views about Jesus. You haven't objected to those. Another case of one rule for you another rule for others. If you delete the atheist section I will delete the other sections because precisely the same objection applies to them. YOu don't like the section solely because it is negative towards Jesus. -- Dr Lisboa 09:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The section should not be removed. Nobody has come up with a single cogent and consistent reason for getting rid of it. Attempting to suppress opposing views is bias and is in breach of WP rules. Some editors have problems with it solely because of intolerance. Every time extreme Christians are shown to be wrong that try some other spurious reason because they don't like what atheists believe. WP is not a democracy. Numbers do not decide whether or not something is edited. Reasoned arguments decide it. The argument is solidly in favour of inclusion. -- Dr Lisboa 09:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Their reason haven't been cogent inthe slightest. They have been full of fallacies and inconsistencies. For example, you claim that atheist views are not specific to atheism. Yet the article states that Islam views Jesus as a messiah, just as Christians do. Their views aren't unique. Yet tou don't propose that being deleted. This is one of many examples of incosistencies. Atheists don't all share the same views, but neither do Christians,Moslems and Buddhists. TRy to be consistent - not one rule for you another rule for others. -- Dr Lisboa 11:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Athiest views have no place on this page. The views of various religions on Jesus are basically dogma (so therfor relevant) while the Athiest views are not a collective viewpoint. If you include Athiest views then you have to include the Plumbers Union views or the Garbage collectors Unions views as they are just as relevant. The majority viewpoint is to exclude isn't it? Accept the consensus. Wayne 15:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
How DARE we use BCE and CE here, how dare we! This is the page for JESUS CHRIST! America is a Judeo-Christian nation, and despite what some whiny Europeans want to believe, this really is the AMERICAN encyclopedia. We are living in the WEST, and our culture was founded upon Judeo-Christian values! How dare you try to insult our history by inserting liberal dating notations into this article, HOW DARE YOU!!!
Spotswood Dudley 19:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Buddy I'm a conservative too, but you don't need to throw such a fit when somebody says something you disagree with. This sort of behavior reflects badly on you and the conservaive movement in general.
TYPING IN CAPS DOESN'T MAKE PEOPLE LISTEN TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. -- Deskana (ya rly) 15:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I recently left another message here, but it seems to have dissapeared and is nowhere to be found in the archived pages...I suppose my words must have been erased by a bureaucrat or an even higher entity. I have no idea why, as I didn't write anything even close to as controversial as my first message. As for all of you telling me to search the archives, I'll have you know that I have, and that for the most part I am personally involved in the talks about this very issue. In the archives I once called for a vote to change the era notations to BC/AD, and the vote came out positive. Nevertheless, nothing changed, due to the massive amounts of liberals who have nothing better to do but sit in front of a computer all day.
Now, assuming my words are not erased from history this time around, I would like to address some of the points that my detractors have expressed. As for typing in caps, I did so because I felt strongly about the issue at hand and wanted attention to be drawn to my words. Deskana has proven that I succeeded in that regard. Now, because this post is getting rather long, I shall only refute one other person's point today. I choose to refute Stephan Schulz, as he is mistaken about the comparison he makes between liberals and extreme Christians.
Now I know, Mr. Schulz, that you aren't a master of scripture, but I still feel that I have to be somewhat stern about proving you wrong. The whole New Testament is NOT about a group of unshaved men in sandals, this is nothing more than blasphemy intended to provoke Christians. First off, it is true that we do not know definitively what Jesus or his disciples looked like, but it is probably safe to assume they had beards, as this was the custom at the time. However, to say they were unshaven would be a mistake. They kept their beards in check and under control.
As for Jesus being a Jew, what of it? He would have to be! Had Jesus never arrived, all Christians would be Jews! Only after Jesus was crucified did Christianity come to be. As for talking about pacifism and turning the other cheek,this is true. This does not mean, however, that men everywhere should never raise a fist against those who wish to kill them. Only in situations Jesus faced while on Earth, with the exception of the crucifixion(which is specific to Jesus), should these rules be followed. And as for demolishing a valuable trading place and peaching against wealth, and in favor of paying taxes, it is important not to twist these incidents into support for the modern welfare state and communism. I would elaborate but I have already written far too much, so if you wish me to elaborate, say so and I shall gladly oblige. Until then, I shall depart. Spotswood Dudley 23:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The vandalism saying Jesus is an E.T. is still there. Yet when I view the history, it says it was removed. 68.55.183.136 23:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I see that it is still there and I can do nothing about it seeing as it's locked.
156.34.250.93