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Using all suggestions and while maintaing a NPOV, I feel the following will please most:
Please discuss. — Aiden 00:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've never talked here before I don't think, but that seems good to me, and pretty accurate. Homestarmy 13:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Fine by me, this is getting old.... Gator (talk) 14:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the current intro is getting some way towards a good verifiable NPOV intro. Robsteadman 18:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well then what are your thoughts on this intro we've proposed here? Homestarmy 18:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
It's not taht different than the one that's up - and I'd like it to show CE not AD (which is POV). Robsteadman 18:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
opk its a bit wordy - - Nicene Crfeed stuff, etc. could what til the article. Robsteadman 18:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well there is already a policy about A.D. vs. CE, whichever one was in the article first should take precedence unless it's clearly not appropriate or something like that, or both could be used, it is in that box in the middle. Trust me, i've been all over that particular debate over December 25th, it took awhile but we finally got agreement :/. But if we've got consensus that this is appropriate then, it seems slightly more discriptive, and appears to better separate people's opinion's distinctly and clearly, I think we should put it in. Homestarmy 18:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, please. Enough. Gator (talk) 18:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Rob is unilaterally messing with the intro and is ignoring consensus regarding a number of issues (AD v CE for example). Please be bold and put this intro in. Gator (talk) 18:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ad is POV. CE is NPOV. If that is Wiki's policy it needs to change. AD is POV and, let's be honest, offensive to many. I am not unilaterally messing - I am trying to make sure it is a balanced article with a balanced intro - some have eben trying to unbalance it further. Robsteadman 18:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I started re-editing before I was even aware of this part of the TALK page - has this not got too big again? I honestly missed that there was further compromise!! Robsteadman 19:02, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but Wikipedia is not a PC soapbox, see " Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy" anti-semitism or Blackface. Im afraid we cannot comprimise because people choose to take positions to be offended just because they hate the idea, there has to be reason, and a very good one. it makes no sense at all in this case anyway, people have used AD for thousands of years without being Christian or being offended, if you are choosing to be offended, it is just that, your choice, not common sense that says all non-Christians should be offended. If you'd like to prove otherwise, you'd have to show some non-original reaserch which is totally reasonable on the subject. At any rate, the vast majority here agree with this intro, and also appear opposed to changing from AD/BC to BCE/CE, im afraid time is simply up for this debate, it was compleated in the Wiki policy change concerning AD/BC and BCE/CE. Homestarmy 19:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello
Oub 17:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC):
Jesus is just a graecicized version of a common Hebrew name, Joshua. There have been many people of this name in history and in the Bible. This is like filing Gaius Julius Caesar under Julius. It would be more appropriate and unambiguous to redir Jesus to Jesus (disambiguation) and rename this article Jeshua ha-Nozri or Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus [the] Christ ist only the name given to him by one religious tradition, thus POV.) And it should definitely be merged with Historical Jesus. It's absurd to try to flatten out conflicting views on a matter by allowing more than one article on the self-same subject. Wikipedia should try to present different POVs (PsOV?) in a synoptic way. -- 84.188.143.210 23:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it about "jesus" or is it about what various people believe about "jesus" and what he may or may not have done?
It sounds to me like the German is a lot closer to an appropriate article putting the fact before the unverifiable. Maybe this article should JUST be the intro (eithe mine of SOPHIA's) with links to all other options? Robsteadman 20:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
So are we going to go with SOPHIA's intro - balanced, NPOV, verifiable.... Robsteadman 07:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there anyway this article can be permanently semi-protected? It is a magnet for anonymous vandalism that takes way too much time to constantly revert and does not seem like it will never end. At least when it was sprotected, it did stop. -- Oscillate 15:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Gator (talk) 16:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Also agreed. SOPHIA 17:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Such protectionism will only discourage potential new contributors who are testing the waters before getting an account. The vandalism is at a manageable level, and I'm sure plenty of people have Jesus on their watchlist. -- Nelson Ricardo 17:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Oppose but swift blocking of vandals needed. Robsteadman 17:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. It's unfortunately but necessary. — Aiden 20:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Much better, starting to reduce the POV leanings, a great improvement. Robsteadman 17:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Despite hundreds of hours of discussion re; a compromise measure for CE/AD, someone has reverted to CE. Can somene please just revert these abck to what was agreed upon. We've dicussed this issue to deatha dn that was the compromise, so we shouldn't alow someoen to unilaterally jack with it like this. Unbelievable... Gator (talk) 18:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
AD is POV. CE is NPOV. Wiki is wrong if its policy is to continue to use AD. It is outdated and offensive. Robsteadman 18:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
We're not going to argue this ALL OVER AGAIN. It has been discussed and a compromsie (completely within policy) was reached, so turn it back or look at the past discussions regarding this and then turn it back. Either way,, but we're not going to go through this again. Gator (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the discussion needs to be reopened. AD is POV and offensive. CE is NPOV and neutral. Robsteadman 19:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm against it. We've beat this horse to death. Try and convince others to opne it again. Until a new consensus is reached however, you need to change it back to what was agreed upon, Rob. Gator (talk) 19:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Quit you're yelling. Gator (talk) 19:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Nope - not yelling. And I'm not changing anything back to an offensive and POV position. Robsteadman 19:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Two exclamation points says you're yelling. If you ignore consensus like this and refuse to turn it back, it will say a great deal about your respect for consensus and will, likely, injure your ability to convicne many people of the viability of your edits in the future. Turn it back. Gator (talk) 19:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
If you;re so pro AD you do the reverts. AD is POV it is unencyclopedic andf un academic. It is offensive. CE is neutral and should be adopted by Wiki throughout ALL articles. Wiki should not be about putting "chrstianity" above all else - that is what AD suggests. Robsteadman 19:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
OK let's debate it.... there's a similar debate going on on the HISTORICITY page right now. Robsteadman 19:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not POV, people have used AD for about 2000 years, and not everyone was a Christian, apparently they saw no PoV problems with it or any objections at all until PC came around. If you don't agree with Wikipedia policy, you can't just ignore it because you think it's outdated and expect people not to protest. We're not out to get you, it's just simple facts, the policy states that it should be AD if it started AD, and CE if it started CE, unless its in radical circumstances, all the debate over POV/NPOV was finished when that policy was implemented pretty much. Im afraid if you can't revert it, we will have to, or WE will be the ones who are violating policy. Furthermore, I must ask, did you decide that AD offended you before you saw the debates over it, or after you saw people's anti-AD opinions? Furthermore, i've been blocked twice from posting because your arguing so fast, let a guy get in a word edge-wise, huh? :/ Homestarmy 19:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I was unaware that there had been debates on here about it - I find it offensive because it is POV. It suggests "christianity" is more important than everything else. It is part of keeping everyone in their place. Robsteadman 19:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
But, now that you do know you have no excuse for not reverting THEN discussing ((not the other way around). There was a compromise on this and you're just ignoring it becuase you don;t agree with it. Rob, change it back. This is the wrong way to go about this and you know it. Gator (talk) 19:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What if you simply tried not to find it offensive, people have not felt strongly about this issue for hundreds of years before recent times, what is making you be offended so besides pride against Christianty? Homestarmy 19:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sure this has been noted before, but isn't it amusing that Christ was born 8-4 years before he was born? Kaveh 16:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Folks,
I personally agree with the basic assertion that AD/BC is POV. However, neither the Arbitration Committee nor those who have made the present policy have seen it that way. Please see WP:MOS and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/jguk 2. The AD/CE policy can be set on an article by article basis, but only by consensus. That means in order to change an article from one to another, everyone here has to agree. Else, someone will have to lobby to get policy changed. In the past, consensus on various articles has leaned toward use of AD/BC on Christianity-related articles, but CE/BCE on those related to other religions.
Something I did not know when I watched this play out during Jguk's arbcom case is that CE/BCE are relatively unknown in many former British empire countries. Many found this alone to be a good reason for retaining AD/CE. Jdavidb ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This is really rather simple: Offensiveness is a subjective measure. As such, it is dependent upon an individual's personal biases. Because of this, it is not defineable in any way other than by consensus. The only other way to define it -- "if one person finds it offensive, it's wrong" -- is asinine and not worth considering.
You see the problem, here? Yeah, that's right; it was decided by consensus, and you're suggesting that consensus is wrong. But it's the only right way to judge subjectivity. icydesign 03:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. I am in support of the anno Domini terminology personally, but I have a different proposal that may just satisfy everyone who reads Wikipedia. This proposal would remove the edit wars, as well as all problems of "confusion" and the extreme likeness of BCE to CE. Also, it would stop confusing pages like this one from referring to years like 164 BC/BCE. I got this idea from the customs of the History Channel. Here is the proposal:
Years from 1 forward will be abbreviated with CE (Common Era; can be interpreted as Christian Era).
Years 1 BC and previous will be abbreviated with BC (Before Christ; can be interpreted as Before Current).
If you want to fool yourself and imagine taht POV do it - but any ssane person knows it is a NPOV label that needs to be used to stop offence. AD and BC are POV and offensive. Robsteadman 19:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Then I guess anyone who disagrees is just insane then huh, Rob? Stop the personal attacks or leave. Gator (talk) 19:18, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems its YOU taking it all very personally. Why can some of you not see that AD is POV and offensive? Robsteadman 19:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
edit conflict) Oh I understand why YOU think its offensive I just don't think that just because you and some otehrs might be offended by it means that it's actually NPOV when used in conjunction wihth CE/BCE. I don't think we should have to bend over backwards wheenver someone (who clearly has ssues with Christianity and religion) gets all upset and offended by such silly things. AD/CE and BC/BCE is a fine compromise and if you are STILL offended by just seeing AD and BC anywhere in the artcile, then I think you're being intolerant. There I said it. Gator (talk) 19:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Because there isn't a good REASON for it besides you seem to be blowing it out of proportion, come on, relax, understand that using AD or BC in common conversation doesn't force you to accept Christianity, and at the very least let us have both date systems, then everyone can understand it. Homestarmy 19:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Robert, obviously you don't really think AD is POV and offensive, you just have an extreme hatred toward Christianity. CE/BCE are just as POV as AD/BC because the common era system declares that the current "era" is based on the believed birth of Christ, therefore acknowledges the significance of his birth. Both systems can be taken as POV and offensive, but only people like you would care. The difference is that AD/BC came first, and doesn't act as a propagandic euphemism, therefore offends less people than BCE/CE because Christians (2.1 billion of them) aren't offended by it. Do you think atheists go around saying that BCE/CE is really based on the death of King Herod or something?? No, because even though it doesn't mention Jesus, it's still based on Him! Darwiner111 20:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I am a little caught off guard by this entire conversation. Have any of you taken the time to read the archives? These waters have been thoroughly chummed; quit arguing about it. There are too many more important things about the article than to keep rehashing this tired subject. The vast majority of world understands the label BC/AD. However, in the PC world of academaia, it is the mode du jour to use BCE/CE. Unfortunately, it has not achieved universal usage and seems to be restricted to those residents of the ivory towers of the world, but I suspect over the next 50 years it will become the common usage. Personally, it is six of one and half a dozen of another. It does make sense to me in articles that are based upon Christian subjects that BC/AD seem very appropriate. To use BCE/CE seems to be an affront too many individuals with Christian beliefs. It is the more common label so let it go and move on. Storm Rider 22:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Even in the Ivory Tower of Academia, CE and BCE are rarely used. Officially, in historical article, journals, papers, research topics, and books, the choice of AD/BC or CE/BCE is entirely up to the individual and no preference is given either way. It is aknowledged that they both denote the same thing, and that the usage of AD/BC is not inordinately offensive to anyone of a religion other than Christianity (or to Christians for that matter). Unless there is a real reason to change the current dating within the article to CE/BCE other than Rob's dislike of Christianity, there is no professional or even a PC reason to do so. pookster11 00:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
the problem, quite frankly, is that some people refuse to let us move on unless it reads BCE/CE :/. Homestarmy 23:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Surely, as there is doubt that"jesus" existed it is a nonsense to include dates in the first sentence. His "possible" dates are discussed later. I would favour their removal from the first sentence which gives the POV that he DID exist - as that cannot be verified it is unencyclopdeic. Robsteadman 19:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
If that's the way you want it, we should go to Evolution and remove all favorable POV from it, as there is dought that it is true...by me. Muahahaha :D. No but seriously, because this is an article reporting on Jesus, we should report when He was most commonly agreed to of lived. Even a totally fictional character from a movie or something would have their fictional date of birth right up front. Homestarmy 19:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case it should make it clear that this is not verifiable and is contested. 86.137.71.91 20:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way can you show me a fictional character's date of birth on here? 86.137.71.91 20:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Chococat was born may 10th, 1996, (Though there is a question mark) Angela Belti was born may 3rd, 1967, Horohoro was born November 27, 1985, (Yea, im using Wiki search, it's kind of random I know) Bea (Dennis the Menace character) apparently was Dennis the Mennis's baby sister born on September 19th, 1998, and this one isn't technically human, but the article Astro Boy at the near bottom lists a birth date of April 7, 2003. Jesus, on the other hand, was not a concept which anyone can prove was made up in someone's head, it doesn't matter how fanciful someone's opinion makes Him out to be, therefore, I see no problem with trying to assert Date of Birth in the first sentence. though, I do agree the contest over the birth date exists, after all, His birthdate isn't in the Bible :/. Lemme see if I can clear it up.... Homestarmy 23:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The other difference is that with those characters it states FICTIONAL CHARACTER -0 maybe that should be used on teh "jesus" article? Or how about "Although his existence cannot be proven some like to give him dates of..." (JOKE!) Robsteadman 08:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
And the dates given are for the historical personage of Jesus. If, scholastically speaking, you discount that Jesus ever existed, obviously the matter of birthdates doesn't matter because hey, he never existed. This goes back to that old conversation Rob, about you trying to involve yourself in things you're not qualified to lecture everyone about. pookster11 00:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no extent contemporary evidence for an historical "jesus". The earliest mentions of him are in POV documents from decades later. If you have contempoary documents please let us all know but I, and the rest of the world, will be amazed. Using your sneering tone (which amounts to persdonal abuse) is not sufficient proof. Please PROOF - verifiabnle PROOF. Robsteadman 09:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no extant contemporary evidence for hundreds of ancient historical figures simply because all the documents rotted from age, that doesn't mean they don't exist, and when you get down to it, ALL historical documents have a POV, the POV of informing the reader on a topic! Without that POV, Wikipedia wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't be having this debate. Furthermore, your only conclusions so far appear to only land on your personal POV which depends solely on flaws that only you seem to personally see in history. Accusing people of abuse probably won't get you consensus either I reckon/ and finally, the only way to actually prove something to anyone is to get them right in front of the facts, in other words, showing you documents won't be good enough, we'll have to get you back in time right in front of Christ himself, we shouldn't need to compleatly prove anything to report on it. See Evolution, you'll probably get a lot of people who agree with me, though they'll probably say something along the lines of they've proved it already or something. Homestarmy 14:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
And again you read more into my edits and put words into my mouth. Tut tut. NPOV means that all should be based on verifiable evdience NOT that all points of view are represented. Therefore it is verifiable fact that there are no extent contemporary documents - that is correct and NPOV. It woul be correct to state that 'despite this "christians" believe.... " that would be correct, verifiable and NPOV. However to give approximate dates to a life for which there is no evidence suggests that he DID in fact exist - and, as has been said, there is no extent contemporary evidence for that - to use dates in that context is POV. To say, later in the article, that some Biblical scholars have deduced that he may have existed between these dates is NPOV and verifiable. You must stop trying to give everythign a "christian" twist and POV. Balance and NPOV is the way that is needed. If it takes a statement that there is no conemporary evidence in each section so be it - the important thing is that the article is made NPOV an that means verifiable and factual. Not giving in to unbalanced stories which cannot be confirmed. Robsteadman 16:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This is to your second to last comment Rob, I tried to reply quicker, but my internet went haywire. The existance of the Gosepl account is not merely guess work or a vain hope, I have one right next to me along with all the other books in the Bible in my backpack this very second. Evidence does not have to definitively prove something in a worldly sense, in trials, people bring many examples of evidence, yet often they do not prove anything, as of course the jury is always free to choose either side. Why should this article not give the reader freedom to decide for themself based on the manuscripts, history, and circumstances in Christianitys's development, rather than just going to the conclusion "Oh, there is no evidence whatsoever that absolutly proves anything"? If evidence did have to definitively prove something as a policy here, an enormous amount of historical figures should all be deleted from Wikipedia, as after all, who can really prove who wrote their biographies, surely anybody could of signed their name on the manuscripts, and all those eyewitnesses accounts? They are all simply a supposed eyewitness's POV. Even I can't prove my own existance more than you seem to want evidence for Jesus historically, after all, who knows if I am really homestarmy, (Besides myself of course) I could be some super smart ultra realistic computer bank to someone else after all if we're looking for definitive proof of everything, if we had to have absolute proof of everything in Wikipedia, then nothing can be in here! What sort of evidence would prove to you, Robsteadman, of the existance of a historical figure? Contemporary accounts? Many biographies of famous people were written several years after their deaths. Non-fanciful sounding reports? Many people have had extremely strange events happen in their lives, why should an account claiming to report on God's life be any different. Universal recognition? People can deny the Holocaust apparently these days, why should they all agree on the existance of a person if they can deny the Holocaust. What is the standard of proof you are working from and how does it agree with Wikipedia policy so that we are all wrong? Homestarmy 16:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
Using all suggestions and while maintaing a NPOV, I feel the following will please most:
Please discuss. — Aiden 00:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've never talked here before I don't think, but that seems good to me, and pretty accurate. Homestarmy 13:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Fine by me, this is getting old.... Gator (talk) 14:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the current intro is getting some way towards a good verifiable NPOV intro. Robsteadman 18:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well then what are your thoughts on this intro we've proposed here? Homestarmy 18:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
It's not taht different than the one that's up - and I'd like it to show CE not AD (which is POV). Robsteadman 18:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
opk its a bit wordy - - Nicene Crfeed stuff, etc. could what til the article. Robsteadman 18:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well there is already a policy about A.D. vs. CE, whichever one was in the article first should take precedence unless it's clearly not appropriate or something like that, or both could be used, it is in that box in the middle. Trust me, i've been all over that particular debate over December 25th, it took awhile but we finally got agreement :/. But if we've got consensus that this is appropriate then, it seems slightly more discriptive, and appears to better separate people's opinion's distinctly and clearly, I think we should put it in. Homestarmy 18:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, please. Enough. Gator (talk) 18:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Rob is unilaterally messing with the intro and is ignoring consensus regarding a number of issues (AD v CE for example). Please be bold and put this intro in. Gator (talk) 18:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ad is POV. CE is NPOV. If that is Wiki's policy it needs to change. AD is POV and, let's be honest, offensive to many. I am not unilaterally messing - I am trying to make sure it is a balanced article with a balanced intro - some have eben trying to unbalance it further. Robsteadman 18:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I started re-editing before I was even aware of this part of the TALK page - has this not got too big again? I honestly missed that there was further compromise!! Robsteadman 19:02, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but Wikipedia is not a PC soapbox, see " Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy" anti-semitism or Blackface. Im afraid we cannot comprimise because people choose to take positions to be offended just because they hate the idea, there has to be reason, and a very good one. it makes no sense at all in this case anyway, people have used AD for thousands of years without being Christian or being offended, if you are choosing to be offended, it is just that, your choice, not common sense that says all non-Christians should be offended. If you'd like to prove otherwise, you'd have to show some non-original reaserch which is totally reasonable on the subject. At any rate, the vast majority here agree with this intro, and also appear opposed to changing from AD/BC to BCE/CE, im afraid time is simply up for this debate, it was compleated in the Wiki policy change concerning AD/BC and BCE/CE. Homestarmy 19:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello
Oub 17:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC):
Jesus is just a graecicized version of a common Hebrew name, Joshua. There have been many people of this name in history and in the Bible. This is like filing Gaius Julius Caesar under Julius. It would be more appropriate and unambiguous to redir Jesus to Jesus (disambiguation) and rename this article Jeshua ha-Nozri or Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus [the] Christ ist only the name given to him by one religious tradition, thus POV.) And it should definitely be merged with Historical Jesus. It's absurd to try to flatten out conflicting views on a matter by allowing more than one article on the self-same subject. Wikipedia should try to present different POVs (PsOV?) in a synoptic way. -- 84.188.143.210 23:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it about "jesus" or is it about what various people believe about "jesus" and what he may or may not have done?
It sounds to me like the German is a lot closer to an appropriate article putting the fact before the unverifiable. Maybe this article should JUST be the intro (eithe mine of SOPHIA's) with links to all other options? Robsteadman 20:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
So are we going to go with SOPHIA's intro - balanced, NPOV, verifiable.... Robsteadman 07:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there anyway this article can be permanently semi-protected? It is a magnet for anonymous vandalism that takes way too much time to constantly revert and does not seem like it will never end. At least when it was sprotected, it did stop. -- Oscillate 15:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Gator (talk) 16:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Also agreed. SOPHIA 17:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Such protectionism will only discourage potential new contributors who are testing the waters before getting an account. The vandalism is at a manageable level, and I'm sure plenty of people have Jesus on their watchlist. -- Nelson Ricardo 17:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Oppose but swift blocking of vandals needed. Robsteadman 17:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. It's unfortunately but necessary. — Aiden 20:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Much better, starting to reduce the POV leanings, a great improvement. Robsteadman 17:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Despite hundreds of hours of discussion re; a compromise measure for CE/AD, someone has reverted to CE. Can somene please just revert these abck to what was agreed upon. We've dicussed this issue to deatha dn that was the compromise, so we shouldn't alow someoen to unilaterally jack with it like this. Unbelievable... Gator (talk) 18:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
AD is POV. CE is NPOV. Wiki is wrong if its policy is to continue to use AD. It is outdated and offensive. Robsteadman 18:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
We're not going to argue this ALL OVER AGAIN. It has been discussed and a compromsie (completely within policy) was reached, so turn it back or look at the past discussions regarding this and then turn it back. Either way,, but we're not going to go through this again. Gator (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the discussion needs to be reopened. AD is POV and offensive. CE is NPOV and neutral. Robsteadman 19:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm against it. We've beat this horse to death. Try and convince others to opne it again. Until a new consensus is reached however, you need to change it back to what was agreed upon, Rob. Gator (talk) 19:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Quit you're yelling. Gator (talk) 19:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Nope - not yelling. And I'm not changing anything back to an offensive and POV position. Robsteadman 19:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Two exclamation points says you're yelling. If you ignore consensus like this and refuse to turn it back, it will say a great deal about your respect for consensus and will, likely, injure your ability to convicne many people of the viability of your edits in the future. Turn it back. Gator (talk) 19:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
If you;re so pro AD you do the reverts. AD is POV it is unencyclopedic andf un academic. It is offensive. CE is neutral and should be adopted by Wiki throughout ALL articles. Wiki should not be about putting "chrstianity" above all else - that is what AD suggests. Robsteadman 19:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
OK let's debate it.... there's a similar debate going on on the HISTORICITY page right now. Robsteadman 19:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not POV, people have used AD for about 2000 years, and not everyone was a Christian, apparently they saw no PoV problems with it or any objections at all until PC came around. If you don't agree with Wikipedia policy, you can't just ignore it because you think it's outdated and expect people not to protest. We're not out to get you, it's just simple facts, the policy states that it should be AD if it started AD, and CE if it started CE, unless its in radical circumstances, all the debate over POV/NPOV was finished when that policy was implemented pretty much. Im afraid if you can't revert it, we will have to, or WE will be the ones who are violating policy. Furthermore, I must ask, did you decide that AD offended you before you saw the debates over it, or after you saw people's anti-AD opinions? Furthermore, i've been blocked twice from posting because your arguing so fast, let a guy get in a word edge-wise, huh? :/ Homestarmy 19:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I was unaware that there had been debates on here about it - I find it offensive because it is POV. It suggests "christianity" is more important than everything else. It is part of keeping everyone in their place. Robsteadman 19:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
But, now that you do know you have no excuse for not reverting THEN discussing ((not the other way around). There was a compromise on this and you're just ignoring it becuase you don;t agree with it. Rob, change it back. This is the wrong way to go about this and you know it. Gator (talk) 19:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What if you simply tried not to find it offensive, people have not felt strongly about this issue for hundreds of years before recent times, what is making you be offended so besides pride against Christianty? Homestarmy 19:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sure this has been noted before, but isn't it amusing that Christ was born 8-4 years before he was born? Kaveh 16:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Folks,
I personally agree with the basic assertion that AD/BC is POV. However, neither the Arbitration Committee nor those who have made the present policy have seen it that way. Please see WP:MOS and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/jguk 2. The AD/CE policy can be set on an article by article basis, but only by consensus. That means in order to change an article from one to another, everyone here has to agree. Else, someone will have to lobby to get policy changed. In the past, consensus on various articles has leaned toward use of AD/BC on Christianity-related articles, but CE/BCE on those related to other religions.
Something I did not know when I watched this play out during Jguk's arbcom case is that CE/BCE are relatively unknown in many former British empire countries. Many found this alone to be a good reason for retaining AD/CE. Jdavidb ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This is really rather simple: Offensiveness is a subjective measure. As such, it is dependent upon an individual's personal biases. Because of this, it is not defineable in any way other than by consensus. The only other way to define it -- "if one person finds it offensive, it's wrong" -- is asinine and not worth considering.
You see the problem, here? Yeah, that's right; it was decided by consensus, and you're suggesting that consensus is wrong. But it's the only right way to judge subjectivity. icydesign 03:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. I am in support of the anno Domini terminology personally, but I have a different proposal that may just satisfy everyone who reads Wikipedia. This proposal would remove the edit wars, as well as all problems of "confusion" and the extreme likeness of BCE to CE. Also, it would stop confusing pages like this one from referring to years like 164 BC/BCE. I got this idea from the customs of the History Channel. Here is the proposal:
Years from 1 forward will be abbreviated with CE (Common Era; can be interpreted as Christian Era).
Years 1 BC and previous will be abbreviated with BC (Before Christ; can be interpreted as Before Current).
If you want to fool yourself and imagine taht POV do it - but any ssane person knows it is a NPOV label that needs to be used to stop offence. AD and BC are POV and offensive. Robsteadman 19:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Then I guess anyone who disagrees is just insane then huh, Rob? Stop the personal attacks or leave. Gator (talk) 19:18, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems its YOU taking it all very personally. Why can some of you not see that AD is POV and offensive? Robsteadman 19:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
edit conflict) Oh I understand why YOU think its offensive I just don't think that just because you and some otehrs might be offended by it means that it's actually NPOV when used in conjunction wihth CE/BCE. I don't think we should have to bend over backwards wheenver someone (who clearly has ssues with Christianity and religion) gets all upset and offended by such silly things. AD/CE and BC/BCE is a fine compromise and if you are STILL offended by just seeing AD and BC anywhere in the artcile, then I think you're being intolerant. There I said it. Gator (talk) 19:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Because there isn't a good REASON for it besides you seem to be blowing it out of proportion, come on, relax, understand that using AD or BC in common conversation doesn't force you to accept Christianity, and at the very least let us have both date systems, then everyone can understand it. Homestarmy 19:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Robert, obviously you don't really think AD is POV and offensive, you just have an extreme hatred toward Christianity. CE/BCE are just as POV as AD/BC because the common era system declares that the current "era" is based on the believed birth of Christ, therefore acknowledges the significance of his birth. Both systems can be taken as POV and offensive, but only people like you would care. The difference is that AD/BC came first, and doesn't act as a propagandic euphemism, therefore offends less people than BCE/CE because Christians (2.1 billion of them) aren't offended by it. Do you think atheists go around saying that BCE/CE is really based on the death of King Herod or something?? No, because even though it doesn't mention Jesus, it's still based on Him! Darwiner111 20:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I am a little caught off guard by this entire conversation. Have any of you taken the time to read the archives? These waters have been thoroughly chummed; quit arguing about it. There are too many more important things about the article than to keep rehashing this tired subject. The vast majority of world understands the label BC/AD. However, in the PC world of academaia, it is the mode du jour to use BCE/CE. Unfortunately, it has not achieved universal usage and seems to be restricted to those residents of the ivory towers of the world, but I suspect over the next 50 years it will become the common usage. Personally, it is six of one and half a dozen of another. It does make sense to me in articles that are based upon Christian subjects that BC/AD seem very appropriate. To use BCE/CE seems to be an affront too many individuals with Christian beliefs. It is the more common label so let it go and move on. Storm Rider 22:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Even in the Ivory Tower of Academia, CE and BCE are rarely used. Officially, in historical article, journals, papers, research topics, and books, the choice of AD/BC or CE/BCE is entirely up to the individual and no preference is given either way. It is aknowledged that they both denote the same thing, and that the usage of AD/BC is not inordinately offensive to anyone of a religion other than Christianity (or to Christians for that matter). Unless there is a real reason to change the current dating within the article to CE/BCE other than Rob's dislike of Christianity, there is no professional or even a PC reason to do so. pookster11 00:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
the problem, quite frankly, is that some people refuse to let us move on unless it reads BCE/CE :/. Homestarmy 23:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Surely, as there is doubt that"jesus" existed it is a nonsense to include dates in the first sentence. His "possible" dates are discussed later. I would favour their removal from the first sentence which gives the POV that he DID exist - as that cannot be verified it is unencyclopdeic. Robsteadman 19:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
If that's the way you want it, we should go to Evolution and remove all favorable POV from it, as there is dought that it is true...by me. Muahahaha :D. No but seriously, because this is an article reporting on Jesus, we should report when He was most commonly agreed to of lived. Even a totally fictional character from a movie or something would have their fictional date of birth right up front. Homestarmy 19:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case it should make it clear that this is not verifiable and is contested. 86.137.71.91 20:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way can you show me a fictional character's date of birth on here? 86.137.71.91 20:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Chococat was born may 10th, 1996, (Though there is a question mark) Angela Belti was born may 3rd, 1967, Horohoro was born November 27, 1985, (Yea, im using Wiki search, it's kind of random I know) Bea (Dennis the Menace character) apparently was Dennis the Mennis's baby sister born on September 19th, 1998, and this one isn't technically human, but the article Astro Boy at the near bottom lists a birth date of April 7, 2003. Jesus, on the other hand, was not a concept which anyone can prove was made up in someone's head, it doesn't matter how fanciful someone's opinion makes Him out to be, therefore, I see no problem with trying to assert Date of Birth in the first sentence. though, I do agree the contest over the birth date exists, after all, His birthdate isn't in the Bible :/. Lemme see if I can clear it up.... Homestarmy 23:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The other difference is that with those characters it states FICTIONAL CHARACTER -0 maybe that should be used on teh "jesus" article? Or how about "Although his existence cannot be proven some like to give him dates of..." (JOKE!) Robsteadman 08:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
And the dates given are for the historical personage of Jesus. If, scholastically speaking, you discount that Jesus ever existed, obviously the matter of birthdates doesn't matter because hey, he never existed. This goes back to that old conversation Rob, about you trying to involve yourself in things you're not qualified to lecture everyone about. pookster11 00:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no extent contemporary evidence for an historical "jesus". The earliest mentions of him are in POV documents from decades later. If you have contempoary documents please let us all know but I, and the rest of the world, will be amazed. Using your sneering tone (which amounts to persdonal abuse) is not sufficient proof. Please PROOF - verifiabnle PROOF. Robsteadman 09:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no extant contemporary evidence for hundreds of ancient historical figures simply because all the documents rotted from age, that doesn't mean they don't exist, and when you get down to it, ALL historical documents have a POV, the POV of informing the reader on a topic! Without that POV, Wikipedia wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't be having this debate. Furthermore, your only conclusions so far appear to only land on your personal POV which depends solely on flaws that only you seem to personally see in history. Accusing people of abuse probably won't get you consensus either I reckon/ and finally, the only way to actually prove something to anyone is to get them right in front of the facts, in other words, showing you documents won't be good enough, we'll have to get you back in time right in front of Christ himself, we shouldn't need to compleatly prove anything to report on it. See Evolution, you'll probably get a lot of people who agree with me, though they'll probably say something along the lines of they've proved it already or something. Homestarmy 14:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
And again you read more into my edits and put words into my mouth. Tut tut. NPOV means that all should be based on verifiable evdience NOT that all points of view are represented. Therefore it is verifiable fact that there are no extent contemporary documents - that is correct and NPOV. It woul be correct to state that 'despite this "christians" believe.... " that would be correct, verifiable and NPOV. However to give approximate dates to a life for which there is no evidence suggests that he DID in fact exist - and, as has been said, there is no extent contemporary evidence for that - to use dates in that context is POV. To say, later in the article, that some Biblical scholars have deduced that he may have existed between these dates is NPOV and verifiable. You must stop trying to give everythign a "christian" twist and POV. Balance and NPOV is the way that is needed. If it takes a statement that there is no conemporary evidence in each section so be it - the important thing is that the article is made NPOV an that means verifiable and factual. Not giving in to unbalanced stories which cannot be confirmed. Robsteadman 16:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This is to your second to last comment Rob, I tried to reply quicker, but my internet went haywire. The existance of the Gosepl account is not merely guess work or a vain hope, I have one right next to me along with all the other books in the Bible in my backpack this very second. Evidence does not have to definitively prove something in a worldly sense, in trials, people bring many examples of evidence, yet often they do not prove anything, as of course the jury is always free to choose either side. Why should this article not give the reader freedom to decide for themself based on the manuscripts, history, and circumstances in Christianitys's development, rather than just going to the conclusion "Oh, there is no evidence whatsoever that absolutly proves anything"? If evidence did have to definitively prove something as a policy here, an enormous amount of historical figures should all be deleted from Wikipedia, as after all, who can really prove who wrote their biographies, surely anybody could of signed their name on the manuscripts, and all those eyewitnesses accounts? They are all simply a supposed eyewitness's POV. Even I can't prove my own existance more than you seem to want evidence for Jesus historically, after all, who knows if I am really homestarmy, (Besides myself of course) I could be some super smart ultra realistic computer bank to someone else after all if we're looking for definitive proof of everything, if we had to have absolute proof of everything in Wikipedia, then nothing can be in here! What sort of evidence would prove to you, Robsteadman, of the existance of a historical figure? Contemporary accounts? Many biographies of famous people were written several years after their deaths. Non-fanciful sounding reports? Many people have had extremely strange events happen in their lives, why should an account claiming to report on God's life be any different. Universal recognition? People can deny the Holocaust apparently these days, why should they all agree on the existance of a person if they can deny the Holocaust. What is the standard of proof you are working from and how does it agree with Wikipedia policy so that we are all wrong? Homestarmy 16:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)