![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
John 17:3. Father is the one true God; Jesus is the one sent by God, the Messiah
Jesus didn't claim to be God; The Gospels don't claim Jesus is God; The Letters of Paul don't claim Jesus is God. It's a later proclamation of the Church of Rome, its source is the gnostics who where the first to claim that Jesus was God and the first to invent the extra-biblical concept of the Trinity
User:Arcturus objects to use use of Common Era
Arcturus has characterized his reverting of my use of Common Era as "reverting vandalism & minor edits" [1]. This is either total misunderstanding of Common Era, or an attempt to disguise his changes
I introduced Common Era on April 19 after discussion on this page (copied between lines below)
- ... Now, if you want to propose changing all dates to CE/BCE, I have no objection, indeed, I would strongly support that. But if there is a consensus to use the conventional AD/BC, then we should follow that convention. I see no point to adding a discussion of BC/CE in the introduction. As I said, if you want to change all dates to BCE/CE I don't object but youshould see what other people think, first. As for your other comments, some are reasonable and I will try to make changes, in the spirit of compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- How about now? Why do you think it is better to have a discussion of CE dating system in the introdcution? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The dating system is the Anno Domini system, NOT the CE system! What is the problem with stating Anno Domini system (correctly)?
If dating system is irrelevant, fine, but if not, its the Anno Domini system, not the CE.
- Hey, I am just replying to JimWae. But the argument against AD is that it violates our NPOV policy. Many editors and readers of Wikipedia do not consider Jesus to be their "lord." To use AD is to imply that according to Wikipedia Jesus really was/is the Lord -- a Christian POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't intend to do any editing of this article, but I'd like to say that it's POV and inappropriate to use BC/AD, because as Slrubenstein says, it implies that Jesus really was someone by whom dates ought to be set, whereas the Wikipedia article should only describe who says what about him, but should not take a side; using BC/AD not only takes a side, but does so in an implicit, almost structural way. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:55, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting using the AD dating system in the article, I am saying that the dating system which used the date arbitrarily assigned to Jesus' birth is the AD system. I agree that using the CE system for dates is preferable. The Rev of Bru
On April 25 this was surreptitiously changed by an anonymous editor who also added clear proselytizations - which were later deleted, but not the AD/CE change until I redid that recently
CE & AD are not equivalent (as Arcturus has said in his edits) -- they may be the same in extension (semantics), but not in intension. JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
The Jesus article is NOT an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus in as NPOV as possible. There are already numerous POV articles on Jesus: Christian views of Jesus, Religious perspectives on Jesus, New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christianity and who knows how many other near-duplications. There is, it turns out, also a Jewish view of Jesus, but not yet an Atheist views of Jesus, Mormon view of Jesus, Unitarian views of Jesus :)
Why would use of Common Era be an insult to the followers of "that religion" - unless it offends them that not everyone worships Jesus as Lord? Consider how those (the majority) who do not take Jesus as "the Lord" must consider seeing Anno Domini every time they see a reference to the calendar.
Notice AD & BC are used when discussing the Anno Domini system developed by Dionysius Exiguus. It is particularly important in the Jesus article, perhaps more than in any other, to use Common Era to avoid the appearance of POV endorsement that Jesus is Lord.
To reiterate: The Jesus article is not an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus done as neutrally as possible.-- JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
To me the solution is to extend the Wikimedia software so that it can display dates in the preferred format, including Islamic and Jewish years if required. Meanwhile the difference needs to be "not worried about" in the same way as color/colour. 217.146.109.253 20:58, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article. Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC– AD 1 or 1 BCE– 1 CE.
Arcturus is being churlish. Although he defends BC and AD, he has not real criticism of BCE and CE. In any event, several people have agreed that BC and CE is more appropriate. Five people against one certainly is good reason to make a change. But even if there were no discussion, the change is fully justified because AD violates our NPOV policy. Earlier, Arcturtus wrote "if you can show me anywhere in the Wikipedia style guidelines that state AD notation is POV then I'll stop using it right now!" which is either woefully ignorant or disingenuous. Wikipedia has article on Naziism, Race, the Holocauts, Fascism -- and in each of these articles NPOV has been an issue at one point or another. An encyclopedia as expansive and inclusive as Wikipedia cannot have a specific policy on every specific phrase that comes up in Wikipedia. It is absurd to think that our NPOV policy has to catelogue all conceivable violations of NPOV. No, a policy is general so it can be applied to a variety of cases. AD reflects the views of a particular group, therefore it is POV, period. AD means Anno Domini means Our Lord means Jesus is our Lord. There are many people who do not consider Jesus their lord, do not use the terms BC and AD, and object to using BC and AD in secular works. Of course I fully understand why Christian works would use BC and AD. Earlier Arcturus claims that an article about Christianity should use AD — another patently absurd claim. First, this is not an article about Christianity, it is an article of Jesus, a character (real or fictional) of interest to Christians, Muslims, Jews, as well as secular/critical historians. Second, even if this were the article on Christianity (i.e., Christianity) I would argue that we should use NPOV terms like BCE and CE. Surely, you do not think that in the article on Hitler, we should take Hitler's point of view? Similarly, an article on Christianity should not take a Christian point of view — it should provide as many various views as are important, in an NPOV way. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:15, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Arcturus, first: stop ignoring the discussion on this page. Second: stop reverting when you are in the minority. See if you can change the minds of others. Also, familiarize yourself with our NPOV policy, as you keep violating it. Finally, do not claim I have provided no explanation when I have provided considerable explanation. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:20, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude, This is not about JimWae's individual point of view. JimWae, Jayjg, SlimVirgin, Rev of Bru, and I all agree that BCE/CE is better. Even if you agree with Arcturus, you are still in a minority. But this is not just about numbers, this is about reasons. I provided a lengthy explanation above, and you have not even responded to it. Please explain how calling 2005 or any other date "the year of our Lord" is neutral? As for Gene Nygaard, the "burden of proof" has been met, through the explanations provided by myself, JimWae, Jayjg, Slim Virgin, and Rev of Bru. Here you simply assert your own opinion. Don't use a "burden of proof" argument to excuse your own ignorance or laziness — if you have good reasons for using AD, and a response to my explanation above, provide it. If you do not, your case is weak. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:06, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Slrubenstein - You and others may favor BCE/CE, but there are also persons who disagree with you and wikipedia's consensus policies oblige you to at minimum take that fact into consideration. One could also reasonably contest your characterization of the other position being in the minority when the entire history of changes to this article is taken into consideration. Just glancing over the last week or so I see at least four different editors who have attempted to restore part or all of the original BC/AD designation. Each time they have been reverted by one of only two people: you or JimWae. You are indeed correct that this is about reasons though, and as I have noted, none of the reasons given thus far rise to a sufficient level to merit your change. Why? Because your reasons all revolve around your belief that BCE/CE is more "neutral" than BC/AD, yet this finding is in conflict with Wikipedia's style guide that explicitly says "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable" so long as the same one is used throughout the article. IOW, this issue has already been decided elsewhere for wikipedia in general and that decision did not give any advantage or favor to one over the other. That you, JimWae, and a handful of others believe favor should be given to BCE/CE over BC/AD, thus justifying your proposed change, is in conflict with the remainder of wikipedia, which deems that no such preference should be given to one over the other. That fact deprives you of the dominant justification for your change, and since changes that are made without any legitimate reason are automatically subject to scrutiny, that defaults us back to the original use that existed in this article from its creation: BC/AD. Also, please be mindful of making an excessive number of reversions in 24 hours, Slrubenstein. I have made the limit and will not revert beyond that until after the proper time expires. You, OTOH, have made no less than four reversions between 17:00 and 20:00 today alone. You're currently in excess of wikipedia's reveresion policy, so I suggest that you cease and desist for the time being. Rangerdude 20:01, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Notice I have listed this debate on the Wikipedia:Requests for Comment page. Summary of Debate (read this entire section for details):
Definitely use BCE. It's what historians use. -- goethean 19:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Dude, if as you say the policy allows either AD or CE, then you have no ground to stand on. Essentially, If Wikipedia policy accepts both, then there is no strict policy. Put another way, the policy supports JimWae and the rest of us at least as much as it supports you. That means that this dispute has to be decided on other grounds than Wikipedia's style guide. JimWae, I, and others have explained our reasons. You still have none. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:38, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
RK - It is our job to educate readers on factual information by facilitating their use through a format that is friendly and readable. It is NOT our job to encourage readers to adopt a less common dating system that a small fraction of WP editors believe to be superior to the standard one for whatever reasons you or anybody else may think. If we use BC/AD there's little doubt that 99.9% of readers who come along will comprehend exactly what it means. When they see the date 12 BC they know that it means 12 years before the year 1, which is traditionally considered the year of Christ's birth. The same cannot be said about the BCE/CE system, which is hardly even known of outside of scholarly circles, and even there its use is a modern phenomenon that's still in the minority. If they have to click on a link to figure out what "CE" means it distracts and detracts away from the ease with which the present article is understood. Seeing as wikipedia is official neutral over which of the two is appropriate, seeing as the original article used BC/AD, and seeing as this system is substantially more familiar to wikipedia's target audience, the concept of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. Right now I have seen little to no compelling reason exists to merit a change, and only blatant POV renderings aimed not at justifying BCE/CE per se but rather passing judgement in favor of its precedence over BC/AD, which as I noted conflicts with wikipedia's official neutrality on the two. Rangerdude 22:07, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Here is just one of the many google searches which shows a huge number of hits in favour of BC. 3000 BC 3000 BCE-- Silversmith 22:19, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
You guys are going over old ground. See Dechristenization Movement and the New Calender Nobs 22:43, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Mel - Actually, no. You didn't give us any better estimate of dating systems in your first comment. You simply asserted your position to be so and dismissed all others. Quod gratis asseritur, buddy. As for English speaking countries, their use of the English language is about as broad a measure as one can get for determining the most commonly used dating system in the English language for an encyclopedia written in English. If you're so keen on other dating systems, make your edits as appropriate on the Jesus article here Rangerdude 22:58, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
[3] [4] And, looking on Italian google, searching only pages in Italian, you get thousands more for BC than BCE. 3000 BC 3000 BCE Also, as for books not internet, here are just a few I have looked at: Glass, 5,000 years - Hugh Tait. Glass Source Book - Jo Marshall. The Splendor of Ethnic Jewelry - France Borel. Quotes:
I've yet to see any proof that BCE/CE is more common. -- Silversmith 23:28, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I pulled some books off my shelf to see which dating system is commonly used by scholars and historians who have written on the topic of Jesus. Geza Vermes, not a Christian, uses BC/AD. N.T. Wright, who is a Christian, also uses BC/AD, however, he has expressed that some editors of his books have required him to use BCE/CE and that he did not feel it was a big deal to do so. Personally, I prefer BCE/CE in most cases, as it sounds more neutral to my nonChristian ears. However, since both dating systems are acceptable to Wikipedia, and scholars do in fact use both, if any article is going to use BC/AD, this one on Jesus is probably the most appropriate place to use it. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 03:24, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
There are several problems with your arguments, Jim.
This is the exact same kind of nonsensical hairsplitting you attempted over on the articles pertaining to secession, Jim, not to mention the Morrill Tariff before that. In both cases you came along, saw something that evidently did not mesh well with your personal POV, and then attempted to expunge it by claiming that whatever you didn't like was not NPOV itself. In both cases, as with this one, your standard for NPOV was not one of wikipedia's policies on how articles should be written, but rather your own personal opinion. You didn't like the way that historians portrayed the Morrill Tariff, so you responded by trying to alter their views to suit your own opinion. You didn't like how the dictionary defined the word secession, so you responded by trying to change the definition to suit your own opinion. Now you don't like that wikipedia tolerates the traditional BC/AD date system, so you respond by trying to cast it as non-neutral even though wikipedia's policy finds nothing wrong with its use and gives no deferrence to the alternative you propose in its place. Wikipedia is not your personal playpen to bog down with JimWae's "opinion of the week" whatever it may be. If you want to make edits around here you need to grow up and start making constructive edits instead of the POV-driven censorship that characterizes your posting patterns. Rangerdude 07:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
My 2c. I've never liked "Common era". Who has it in common with whom? Whatever we call the years, they're dated from the presumed birth of Jesus. I'm an atheist and I don't give a fig about AD meaning "anno domini". It's just a pair of letters. I don't see any great need to replace them, and I don't like the fabrication of a "common era" to do so. It does have some currency though, so it has to be considered. The stuff about offending the nonChristian is utter bollocks. You'd need a very thin skin to get offended at that! I don't see anyone agitating for dates to be given in other calendars.
But that's just my opinion. Had I seen it on the page when I came to it, I certainly wouldn't change it. My view is we should go with whichever was used first. There's precedent for that on Wikipedia and I think it's a good way to resolve what is otherwise an intractable argument. I'm not going to go back and look but my small voice is added to the clamour for whichever it was. Grace Note 04:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
-that's your opinion & you are of course entitled to it. It is not, however, about being offended; it is about being forced to accept (swallow) "Jesus is Lord" when there is a more neutral alternative.-- JimWae 05:05, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
No, it is purposely an attempt to be non-Christian, not anti-Christian - to not include acceptance of Jesus as Lord in the calendar. It's acceptable to have the years be based on the faulty reckoning (for want of a better, non-disruptive system) -- but that's quite enough. It is not acceptable (to me and to many anyway) to have to also (for all time) accept surreptitiously that Jesus is Lord. Do you not care about the attempts of some others to make a few improvements in the world? Are you content to also let all manner of cultural biases be permanently entrenched?-- JimWae 05:48, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
Morning Star & Evening Star have the same extension (semantics), but not the same intension. Ethnic & sexual slurs and more neutral terms also ... Humanity makes some rogress when this is realized and changes are made. Note the objections above that Common Era is more of that PC stuff - as though being "PC" were immediately an argument about eternal worthlessness -- JimWae 06:01, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
If it is true that Common Era is not understood outside America, then your argument is with wikipedia manual of style, not me. Btw, I am "outside America" myself. And AGAIN it is not about being offended, it is about insensitivity & could care-less-ness -- JimWae 06:36, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
The method of dating using Anno Domini is not, Western, Christian or Eurocentric; it is currently commonly used globally by all cultures and civilizations, Islamic, Sinic, Japanese, Hindu, etc. The United Nations, for example, all UN Resolutions are dated using Anno Domini calender, as do all UN NGO's conduct business as such. Jesus, what a sterile debate. Nobs 06:52, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
For dates, please use the BCE-CE system, rather than BC-AD.
From the The Publications Committee of the Egyptian Studies Society new guidelines for their journal Ostracon
[5].All dates should be in the format BCE/CE, unless in quoted material.
From the Contributor Guidelines for editorial submission in The International Journal of Pagan Studies
[6]Eras and dates. The journal prefers B.C.E., C.E., 12 December 1999
From the American Journal of Philology
[7]All dates should be in the format BCE/CE
From the NSU Style Manual.
[8][W]e prefer BCE, CE
Submission Manuscript Guidelines for Sage Publications
[9]we prefer BCE, CE
Journal for the study of the historical Jesus
[10]Eras: Please use BCE (Before Current Era) and CE (Current Era) rather than B.C. and A.D.
From The Canadian Journal of Cultural Studies Style Guide.
[11]we prefer BCE, CE
From the Continuum International Publishing Group Brief Style Guide for Contributors to JSHJ and JSHJSup
[12]It is also interesting to note that Wikipedia:WikiProject Years has no mention of BCE/CE issue, but they do mention using BC. Yes, I admit that all the books I've refered to are pre 2000, so are less likely to have used this new system of BCE. The policy I was refering to was the one that suggests we go with what the original editors used. So if it was American spelling, don't change it to English. This article for a long time was BC/AD, so it is pushing a POV to change it to BCE/CE when there really is no need. Particularly when this will create double redirects as BCE is redirected to BC. And I'm not saying it is common because I hadn't heard of it, but from the fact that it is blatantly obvious on google, as pointed out above, and it has been the standard up until very recently as Mel pointed out. If no-one is going to be offended by the artilce having BC/AD, then why bother making it stand out as one of the few articles on Wikipedia to use it? Silversmith. -- Chammy Koala 14:33, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Given that extensive comments have been taken on this dispute, I think it's useful to remain cognizant of where we stand in obtaining a consensus. I noticed that JimWae recently reverted the article to include his proposed BCE/CE dating system that is the subject of this dispute. In doing so, he directed readers to this talk page and stated "note I am not hiding what I do, like others here" thus needlessly attacking the motives of people who disagree with him. Both of these comments are curious and the latter is IMHO inappropriate given that (1) the talk page consensus right now is NOT supportive of the reversion he made, citing it as his justification and (2) any attempt to restore the original BC/AD usage is easily viewed on the history page and is thus not hidden. Given this situation, I would ask that JimWae agree to restore the original and suspend his proposed change to the BCE/CE system pending further discussion lest we get into another reversion war. Another editor was suspended on this article earlier today after violating the 3RR rule by attempting to make the same changes JimWae just made, meaning we should seek to avoid a repeat. Rangerdude 07:48, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
John 17:3. Father is the one true God; Jesus is the one sent by God, the Messiah
Jesus didn't claim to be God; The Gospels don't claim Jesus is God; The Letters of Paul don't claim Jesus is God. It's a later proclamation of the Church of Rome, its source is the gnostics who where the first to claim that Jesus was God and the first to invent the extra-biblical concept of the Trinity
User:Arcturus objects to use use of Common Era
Arcturus has characterized his reverting of my use of Common Era as "reverting vandalism & minor edits" [1]. This is either total misunderstanding of Common Era, or an attempt to disguise his changes
I introduced Common Era on April 19 after discussion on this page (copied between lines below)
- ... Now, if you want to propose changing all dates to CE/BCE, I have no objection, indeed, I would strongly support that. But if there is a consensus to use the conventional AD/BC, then we should follow that convention. I see no point to adding a discussion of BC/CE in the introduction. As I said, if you want to change all dates to BCE/CE I don't object but youshould see what other people think, first. As for your other comments, some are reasonable and I will try to make changes, in the spirit of compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- How about now? Why do you think it is better to have a discussion of CE dating system in the introdcution? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The dating system is the Anno Domini system, NOT the CE system! What is the problem with stating Anno Domini system (correctly)?
If dating system is irrelevant, fine, but if not, its the Anno Domini system, not the CE.
- Hey, I am just replying to JimWae. But the argument against AD is that it violates our NPOV policy. Many editors and readers of Wikipedia do not consider Jesus to be their "lord." To use AD is to imply that according to Wikipedia Jesus really was/is the Lord -- a Christian POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't intend to do any editing of this article, but I'd like to say that it's POV and inappropriate to use BC/AD, because as Slrubenstein says, it implies that Jesus really was someone by whom dates ought to be set, whereas the Wikipedia article should only describe who says what about him, but should not take a side; using BC/AD not only takes a side, but does so in an implicit, almost structural way. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:55, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting using the AD dating system in the article, I am saying that the dating system which used the date arbitrarily assigned to Jesus' birth is the AD system. I agree that using the CE system for dates is preferable. The Rev of Bru
On April 25 this was surreptitiously changed by an anonymous editor who also added clear proselytizations - which were later deleted, but not the AD/CE change until I redid that recently
CE & AD are not equivalent (as Arcturus has said in his edits) -- they may be the same in extension (semantics), but not in intension. JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
The Jesus article is NOT an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus in as NPOV as possible. There are already numerous POV articles on Jesus: Christian views of Jesus, Religious perspectives on Jesus, New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christianity and who knows how many other near-duplications. There is, it turns out, also a Jewish view of Jesus, but not yet an Atheist views of Jesus, Mormon view of Jesus, Unitarian views of Jesus :)
Why would use of Common Era be an insult to the followers of "that religion" - unless it offends them that not everyone worships Jesus as Lord? Consider how those (the majority) who do not take Jesus as "the Lord" must consider seeing Anno Domini every time they see a reference to the calendar.
Notice AD & BC are used when discussing the Anno Domini system developed by Dionysius Exiguus. It is particularly important in the Jesus article, perhaps more than in any other, to use Common Era to avoid the appearance of POV endorsement that Jesus is Lord.
To reiterate: The Jesus article is not an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus done as neutrally as possible.-- JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
To me the solution is to extend the Wikimedia software so that it can display dates in the preferred format, including Islamic and Jewish years if required. Meanwhile the difference needs to be "not worried about" in the same way as color/colour. 217.146.109.253 20:58, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article. Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC– AD 1 or 1 BCE– 1 CE.
Arcturus is being churlish. Although he defends BC and AD, he has not real criticism of BCE and CE. In any event, several people have agreed that BC and CE is more appropriate. Five people against one certainly is good reason to make a change. But even if there were no discussion, the change is fully justified because AD violates our NPOV policy. Earlier, Arcturtus wrote "if you can show me anywhere in the Wikipedia style guidelines that state AD notation is POV then I'll stop using it right now!" which is either woefully ignorant or disingenuous. Wikipedia has article on Naziism, Race, the Holocauts, Fascism -- and in each of these articles NPOV has been an issue at one point or another. An encyclopedia as expansive and inclusive as Wikipedia cannot have a specific policy on every specific phrase that comes up in Wikipedia. It is absurd to think that our NPOV policy has to catelogue all conceivable violations of NPOV. No, a policy is general so it can be applied to a variety of cases. AD reflects the views of a particular group, therefore it is POV, period. AD means Anno Domini means Our Lord means Jesus is our Lord. There are many people who do not consider Jesus their lord, do not use the terms BC and AD, and object to using BC and AD in secular works. Of course I fully understand why Christian works would use BC and AD. Earlier Arcturus claims that an article about Christianity should use AD — another patently absurd claim. First, this is not an article about Christianity, it is an article of Jesus, a character (real or fictional) of interest to Christians, Muslims, Jews, as well as secular/critical historians. Second, even if this were the article on Christianity (i.e., Christianity) I would argue that we should use NPOV terms like BCE and CE. Surely, you do not think that in the article on Hitler, we should take Hitler's point of view? Similarly, an article on Christianity should not take a Christian point of view — it should provide as many various views as are important, in an NPOV way. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:15, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Arcturus, first: stop ignoring the discussion on this page. Second: stop reverting when you are in the minority. See if you can change the minds of others. Also, familiarize yourself with our NPOV policy, as you keep violating it. Finally, do not claim I have provided no explanation when I have provided considerable explanation. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:20, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude, This is not about JimWae's individual point of view. JimWae, Jayjg, SlimVirgin, Rev of Bru, and I all agree that BCE/CE is better. Even if you agree with Arcturus, you are still in a minority. But this is not just about numbers, this is about reasons. I provided a lengthy explanation above, and you have not even responded to it. Please explain how calling 2005 or any other date "the year of our Lord" is neutral? As for Gene Nygaard, the "burden of proof" has been met, through the explanations provided by myself, JimWae, Jayjg, Slim Virgin, and Rev of Bru. Here you simply assert your own opinion. Don't use a "burden of proof" argument to excuse your own ignorance or laziness — if you have good reasons for using AD, and a response to my explanation above, provide it. If you do not, your case is weak. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:06, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Slrubenstein - You and others may favor BCE/CE, but there are also persons who disagree with you and wikipedia's consensus policies oblige you to at minimum take that fact into consideration. One could also reasonably contest your characterization of the other position being in the minority when the entire history of changes to this article is taken into consideration. Just glancing over the last week or so I see at least four different editors who have attempted to restore part or all of the original BC/AD designation. Each time they have been reverted by one of only two people: you or JimWae. You are indeed correct that this is about reasons though, and as I have noted, none of the reasons given thus far rise to a sufficient level to merit your change. Why? Because your reasons all revolve around your belief that BCE/CE is more "neutral" than BC/AD, yet this finding is in conflict with Wikipedia's style guide that explicitly says "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable" so long as the same one is used throughout the article. IOW, this issue has already been decided elsewhere for wikipedia in general and that decision did not give any advantage or favor to one over the other. That you, JimWae, and a handful of others believe favor should be given to BCE/CE over BC/AD, thus justifying your proposed change, is in conflict with the remainder of wikipedia, which deems that no such preference should be given to one over the other. That fact deprives you of the dominant justification for your change, and since changes that are made without any legitimate reason are automatically subject to scrutiny, that defaults us back to the original use that existed in this article from its creation: BC/AD. Also, please be mindful of making an excessive number of reversions in 24 hours, Slrubenstein. I have made the limit and will not revert beyond that until after the proper time expires. You, OTOH, have made no less than four reversions between 17:00 and 20:00 today alone. You're currently in excess of wikipedia's reveresion policy, so I suggest that you cease and desist for the time being. Rangerdude 20:01, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Notice I have listed this debate on the Wikipedia:Requests for Comment page. Summary of Debate (read this entire section for details):
Definitely use BCE. It's what historians use. -- goethean 19:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Dude, if as you say the policy allows either AD or CE, then you have no ground to stand on. Essentially, If Wikipedia policy accepts both, then there is no strict policy. Put another way, the policy supports JimWae and the rest of us at least as much as it supports you. That means that this dispute has to be decided on other grounds than Wikipedia's style guide. JimWae, I, and others have explained our reasons. You still have none. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:38, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
RK - It is our job to educate readers on factual information by facilitating their use through a format that is friendly and readable. It is NOT our job to encourage readers to adopt a less common dating system that a small fraction of WP editors believe to be superior to the standard one for whatever reasons you or anybody else may think. If we use BC/AD there's little doubt that 99.9% of readers who come along will comprehend exactly what it means. When they see the date 12 BC they know that it means 12 years before the year 1, which is traditionally considered the year of Christ's birth. The same cannot be said about the BCE/CE system, which is hardly even known of outside of scholarly circles, and even there its use is a modern phenomenon that's still in the minority. If they have to click on a link to figure out what "CE" means it distracts and detracts away from the ease with which the present article is understood. Seeing as wikipedia is official neutral over which of the two is appropriate, seeing as the original article used BC/AD, and seeing as this system is substantially more familiar to wikipedia's target audience, the concept of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. Right now I have seen little to no compelling reason exists to merit a change, and only blatant POV renderings aimed not at justifying BCE/CE per se but rather passing judgement in favor of its precedence over BC/AD, which as I noted conflicts with wikipedia's official neutrality on the two. Rangerdude 22:07, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Here is just one of the many google searches which shows a huge number of hits in favour of BC. 3000 BC 3000 BCE-- Silversmith 22:19, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
You guys are going over old ground. See Dechristenization Movement and the New Calender Nobs 22:43, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Mel - Actually, no. You didn't give us any better estimate of dating systems in your first comment. You simply asserted your position to be so and dismissed all others. Quod gratis asseritur, buddy. As for English speaking countries, their use of the English language is about as broad a measure as one can get for determining the most commonly used dating system in the English language for an encyclopedia written in English. If you're so keen on other dating systems, make your edits as appropriate on the Jesus article here Rangerdude 22:58, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
[3] [4] And, looking on Italian google, searching only pages in Italian, you get thousands more for BC than BCE. 3000 BC 3000 BCE Also, as for books not internet, here are just a few I have looked at: Glass, 5,000 years - Hugh Tait. Glass Source Book - Jo Marshall. The Splendor of Ethnic Jewelry - France Borel. Quotes:
I've yet to see any proof that BCE/CE is more common. -- Silversmith 23:28, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I pulled some books off my shelf to see which dating system is commonly used by scholars and historians who have written on the topic of Jesus. Geza Vermes, not a Christian, uses BC/AD. N.T. Wright, who is a Christian, also uses BC/AD, however, he has expressed that some editors of his books have required him to use BCE/CE and that he did not feel it was a big deal to do so. Personally, I prefer BCE/CE in most cases, as it sounds more neutral to my nonChristian ears. However, since both dating systems are acceptable to Wikipedia, and scholars do in fact use both, if any article is going to use BC/AD, this one on Jesus is probably the most appropriate place to use it. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 03:24, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
There are several problems with your arguments, Jim.
This is the exact same kind of nonsensical hairsplitting you attempted over on the articles pertaining to secession, Jim, not to mention the Morrill Tariff before that. In both cases you came along, saw something that evidently did not mesh well with your personal POV, and then attempted to expunge it by claiming that whatever you didn't like was not NPOV itself. In both cases, as with this one, your standard for NPOV was not one of wikipedia's policies on how articles should be written, but rather your own personal opinion. You didn't like the way that historians portrayed the Morrill Tariff, so you responded by trying to alter their views to suit your own opinion. You didn't like how the dictionary defined the word secession, so you responded by trying to change the definition to suit your own opinion. Now you don't like that wikipedia tolerates the traditional BC/AD date system, so you respond by trying to cast it as non-neutral even though wikipedia's policy finds nothing wrong with its use and gives no deferrence to the alternative you propose in its place. Wikipedia is not your personal playpen to bog down with JimWae's "opinion of the week" whatever it may be. If you want to make edits around here you need to grow up and start making constructive edits instead of the POV-driven censorship that characterizes your posting patterns. Rangerdude 07:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
My 2c. I've never liked "Common era". Who has it in common with whom? Whatever we call the years, they're dated from the presumed birth of Jesus. I'm an atheist and I don't give a fig about AD meaning "anno domini". It's just a pair of letters. I don't see any great need to replace them, and I don't like the fabrication of a "common era" to do so. It does have some currency though, so it has to be considered. The stuff about offending the nonChristian is utter bollocks. You'd need a very thin skin to get offended at that! I don't see anyone agitating for dates to be given in other calendars.
But that's just my opinion. Had I seen it on the page when I came to it, I certainly wouldn't change it. My view is we should go with whichever was used first. There's precedent for that on Wikipedia and I think it's a good way to resolve what is otherwise an intractable argument. I'm not going to go back and look but my small voice is added to the clamour for whichever it was. Grace Note 04:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
-that's your opinion & you are of course entitled to it. It is not, however, about being offended; it is about being forced to accept (swallow) "Jesus is Lord" when there is a more neutral alternative.-- JimWae 05:05, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
No, it is purposely an attempt to be non-Christian, not anti-Christian - to not include acceptance of Jesus as Lord in the calendar. It's acceptable to have the years be based on the faulty reckoning (for want of a better, non-disruptive system) -- but that's quite enough. It is not acceptable (to me and to many anyway) to have to also (for all time) accept surreptitiously that Jesus is Lord. Do you not care about the attempts of some others to make a few improvements in the world? Are you content to also let all manner of cultural biases be permanently entrenched?-- JimWae 05:48, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
Morning Star & Evening Star have the same extension (semantics), but not the same intension. Ethnic & sexual slurs and more neutral terms also ... Humanity makes some rogress when this is realized and changes are made. Note the objections above that Common Era is more of that PC stuff - as though being "PC" were immediately an argument about eternal worthlessness -- JimWae 06:01, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
If it is true that Common Era is not understood outside America, then your argument is with wikipedia manual of style, not me. Btw, I am "outside America" myself. And AGAIN it is not about being offended, it is about insensitivity & could care-less-ness -- JimWae 06:36, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
The method of dating using Anno Domini is not, Western, Christian or Eurocentric; it is currently commonly used globally by all cultures and civilizations, Islamic, Sinic, Japanese, Hindu, etc. The United Nations, for example, all UN Resolutions are dated using Anno Domini calender, as do all UN NGO's conduct business as such. Jesus, what a sterile debate. Nobs 06:52, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
For dates, please use the BCE-CE system, rather than BC-AD.
From the The Publications Committee of the Egyptian Studies Society new guidelines for their journal Ostracon
[5].All dates should be in the format BCE/CE, unless in quoted material.
From the Contributor Guidelines for editorial submission in The International Journal of Pagan Studies
[6]Eras and dates. The journal prefers B.C.E., C.E., 12 December 1999
From the American Journal of Philology
[7]All dates should be in the format BCE/CE
From the NSU Style Manual.
[8][W]e prefer BCE, CE
Submission Manuscript Guidelines for Sage Publications
[9]we prefer BCE, CE
Journal for the study of the historical Jesus
[10]Eras: Please use BCE (Before Current Era) and CE (Current Era) rather than B.C. and A.D.
From The Canadian Journal of Cultural Studies Style Guide.
[11]we prefer BCE, CE
From the Continuum International Publishing Group Brief Style Guide for Contributors to JSHJ and JSHJSup
[12]It is also interesting to note that Wikipedia:WikiProject Years has no mention of BCE/CE issue, but they do mention using BC. Yes, I admit that all the books I've refered to are pre 2000, so are less likely to have used this new system of BCE. The policy I was refering to was the one that suggests we go with what the original editors used. So if it was American spelling, don't change it to English. This article for a long time was BC/AD, so it is pushing a POV to change it to BCE/CE when there really is no need. Particularly when this will create double redirects as BCE is redirected to BC. And I'm not saying it is common because I hadn't heard of it, but from the fact that it is blatantly obvious on google, as pointed out above, and it has been the standard up until very recently as Mel pointed out. If no-one is going to be offended by the artilce having BC/AD, then why bother making it stand out as one of the few articles on Wikipedia to use it? Silversmith. -- Chammy Koala 14:33, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Given that extensive comments have been taken on this dispute, I think it's useful to remain cognizant of where we stand in obtaining a consensus. I noticed that JimWae recently reverted the article to include his proposed BCE/CE dating system that is the subject of this dispute. In doing so, he directed readers to this talk page and stated "note I am not hiding what I do, like others here" thus needlessly attacking the motives of people who disagree with him. Both of these comments are curious and the latter is IMHO inappropriate given that (1) the talk page consensus right now is NOT supportive of the reversion he made, citing it as his justification and (2) any attempt to restore the original BC/AD usage is easily viewed on the history page and is thus not hidden. Given this situation, I would ask that JimWae agree to restore the original and suspend his proposed change to the BCE/CE system pending further discussion lest we get into another reversion war. Another editor was suspended on this article earlier today after violating the 3RR rule by attempting to make the same changes JimWae just made, meaning we should seek to avoid a repeat. Rangerdude 07:48, 9 May 2005 (UTC)