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I deleted a section someone added to "historicity" because (1) it was written in a highly POV way, (2) it is a fringe theory that at the most merits only a minor mention and link to some other page, and (3) this is something CheeseDreams pushed obsessively, and, before she was banned, we reached an agreement that it was not appropriate here. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:45, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Dirtygreek 18:53, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In fact, most historians reject the claims you are making. The Jesus article is long and an NPOV article discussing the claims you make would require much more development. Remove the content, put in a link, and create a separate article. Also, check and see what other articles already address these claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:05, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The article's description of Jesus as "a Jewish preacher and healer" is based on biased historic propaganda, not evidence. History of populations and the new testament holds substantial evidence against its correctness. I suggest that all blind assumptions of his "Jewishness" are removed, and there should be no reference to his "Jewishness" other than in the form of (or in a section neutrally presenting) arguments for or against why he should be considered a Jew. For those who blindly take his Jewishness as given, this link may shed some light upon you: http://www.sweetliberty.org/perspective/jewishpersecution7.htm
It is absolutely central to Jesus's story that he was Jewish. King of the Jews in fact. ( Grace Note 06:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC))
Their messiah. Etc. If he existed, he was Jewish in the commonly accepted meaning of that word. However, to suggest that the gospels are good historical sources seems a bit iffy to me and suggesting that Jesus was a preacher and healer doubly so. It's laughable to quote Josephus as proof but ignore other things he said. Many people hold the view that he didn't exist and was an invention, or that if he existed, his reality was very far removed from that described in this article, even in the Mishna he's not the Christian Jesus exactly. I'm not going to bother editing this article -- I have no interest in causing a controversy! -- but I do want to note that the introduction seemed dodgy to me, and Will2K, Wikipedia is not like any other encyclopaedia. It doesn't print "mainstream views" as facts, but as mainstream views. That is the essence of what we are doing here, I believe. I think the first sentence should read that Jesus was "thought to be" or "claimed to be" or "traditionally was" or something that captures the doubt. Grace Note 06:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The anonymous user's claim that Jesus was not Jewish is based on a profound misunderstanding of historiography and historical research. It is true that modern Judaism grew out of rabbinic Judaism which grew out of the Pharisees. But that does not mean that non-pharisees were not Jews, or that before there were pharisees there were no Jews. What is true is that the meaning of "Jewish" has changed over the centuries, and is heterogeneous. Certainly, the Pharisees recognized non-Pharisees to be Jews. Even Herod, who was descended from Idumeans, was a Jew -- all historical sources from that time agree that he was a Jew. To say that Jesus was not a Jew because he did not adhere to the Talmud — which was compiled after he was killed – is like saying Robespierre was not French, because he did not grow up in the Fifth Republic, or like saying George Washington was not an American, because he was not born in "the United States of America." Slrubenstein | Talk 17:00, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
the commonly known distinction between Jewry and Christianity was born there.
Also, note that neither Hebrews who were Jesus' followers nor Hebrews who are Christian today are called Jews.
So therefore calling Jesus "Jewish" is valid, but only in a very small sense of what the word "Jewish" can mean.
Most Wikipedia articles are well-written enough not to describe all historical figures with semitic background or who are Israelis as "Jewish". Why is that? Because, "Jewish" is very inspecific and inexact when not applied to religious AND modern Jews. I only ask you, why is it NECESSARY?
It's not necessary to the Hebrews of the old testament, why should it be to Jesus? The word lacks CONTENT,
which other articles have in describing the person in a much more informative way - here are some examples from Wikipedia articles of much clearer ways to describe it...... "Sigmund Freud was born Sigismund Schlomo Freud into a Jewish family in Freiberg" "Albert Einstein's family was Jewish (and non-observant)" "Giacicomo Meyerbeer was born to a Jewish family in Vogelsdorf, Germany with the name Yaakov Liebmann Beer" "Felix Mendelssohn was born in Hamburg, the son of a banker, Abraham, who was himself the son of the famous Jewish philosopher, Moses Mendelssohn." "Gustav Mahler was born into a Jewish family in Kaliste, Bohemia." (perhaps this is so because he converted to Catholicism) "Daniel Barenboim (born November 15, 1942) is an Argentinean-Israeli pianist and conductor... ...his parents were Russian Jews." Even leaders such as Ariel Sharon are described as "Israeli", much more helpful than "Jewish", while for example "Jewish-American" for Steven Spielberg denotes that he is American with Jewish ancestry. --Threadstarter
The anonymous editor wrote this, above:
... which again reveals real ignorance of history and historiography. The main source we have for Jesus' life is the Gospels. What is this "Indo-European myth?" Some of the authors of NT books were Gentiles, but many were Jewish. What we see in the NT is the formation of a set of beliefs that originally constituted a branch of Judaism, and which then split off from Judaism to become a new religion. Historians do not reject it as myth (a meaningless word in this context) -- they see it as a document produced by a number of people over a certain period of time for certain purposes, and it is this context which provides scholars with a perspective to read it critically. But there is no historical research that starts with some other text. Why do you say that the "historical" Jesus was a harsh teacher? Why is Jesus as the divine healer of the sick not a Jewish Jesus? In fact, historians recognize that Jesus' healing the sick (or at least people believing he healed the sick) is one of the things that makes him Jewish, as this was a very common Jewish practice at the time. Historians do not necessarily believe that these people really could heal the sick -- but they do know that there were many Jews who claimed to have this power, and many Jews who believed them, so Jesus' being a healer is very much part of the "Jewish" Jesus and the historical Jesus. It is true that historians reject the claims about miracles and resurrection. But they still see Jesus as a central figure in the formation of Christianity. This does not mean he was not a Jew. Indeed, Jesus had to be a Jew, because only a Jew could be the messiah (the messiah was of the house of David). The last supper was a Passover seder (a major Jewish holiday). Jesus' followers claimed that he was prophesized by the prophets -- another mark of his Jewishness, since non-Jews didn't care what the Jews' sacred scripture said. He preached in Caperneum and Jerusalem -- both Jewish towns. His two most important "commandments," "The first is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these." happen also to be the two central commandments of the Pharisees (and were established as such before Jesus was born). If he were not Jewish, the Sanhedrin would not have tried him (if indeed they did), since they did not have authority over non-Jews. So -- why would anyone think that a guy with a Jewish name, who relies on the Hebrew Bible in his preaching, who preaches to Jews, who has Jewish disciples, who celebrates a Jewish holiday -- why would anyone think this guy wasn't Jewish? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"It is true that historians reject the claims about miracles and resurrection." - not necessarily. -- Eleassar777 14:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is not at all clear that Jesus "taught against the fundamentals of Jewish law;" this is a ridiculous claim. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't want to rely on a piece of anti-Semitism to support my claims, but if you insist — just because Luther was critical of Jews in his day, does not mean that Jesus was not Jewish. In the United States, Democrats today strongly dislike Republicans -- but none of them deny that Abe Lincoln was a Republican. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Christianity may be "anti-Judaism" (according to the Catholic Chucrch, Lutherans, and other denominations, though, it is not), but that does not mean that Jesus was not Jewish. "The chosen people" is not a "central" idea and developed over time, it is unclear as to whether Jews at that time used the phrase. Finally, Judaism was heterogeneous then as it is now, and just as today there are many Jews (and Jewish organizations) that reject the notion of "chosen people," there is no reason why Jews back then could not also have been divided on this issue. And what question about Martin Luther? You never asked any question about Martin Luther -- although I did respond to your statement about Martin Luther above, try reading it. In any case, nothing that you have just written responds to any of the points I made above, referring to the NT and the Catechism. Clearly, there are many true Christians who believe that Jesus was Jewish. If you do not understand how that could be, ask them! Slrubenstein | Talk 19:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You need to read your own Bible. Aside from the verses I quoted above, John 4:9 clearly identifies Jesus as a Jew. By the way, the Jewish concept of "chosen people" is not hierarchical -- God made promises to many other peoples besides the Jews. Perhaps you do not understand the Jewish concept of "chosen people" -- it in no way denies the fact that God chooses other peoples as well. Also, be careful about criticizing God's covenant with Israel because the fact of that covenant is the starting point for Christian theology. I am sorry you do not understand how Jesus could be a Jew. You have to talk to religious and knowledgable Christians, or theologians, to understand why. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:57, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course you can decide not to believe in Jesus and continue living your senseless life, but I assure that it will lead to destruction. Jesus lives and he offers you salvation. It is up to you.
Uh, who are you to judge a person's life as senseless, and state with assurance that their life (of which you know nothing) will lead to destruction? Please prosletyse by fear elsewhere; this is an online encyclopedia, where we try to deal with matters of fact, not faith. Thank you. Fergananim
The Common Era dating system is not based on the religious beliefs regarding the birth date of Jesus. To say otherwise is erroneous. Kelvin uses the same scale as celsius, but it is not based on the boiling point and freezing point of water. The anno Domini system is based on the date originally made up for Jesus' birth - the CE system is seperate and just uses the numbering of the most popular calendar. ~
-- JimWae 19:49, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)==Odd theory==
This was re-insterted by Slrubenstein. Can you (or someone else) please explain why the lead section should be clogged with detail like this, especially when constituting "theories that are not widely spread"? The lead section should only cover the most relevant facts. Fredrik | talk 18:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It seems that in his hurry to remove what he mistakenly claimed was POV, he reinserted several things that now appear twice - including a jpg. I have done some editing to clear up text to make it more apparent it is not POV -- JimWae 18:43, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
JimWae, you have just reverted my changes twice in a row, without explanation. Moreover, it is simply rude to make a major change without explaining it, especially when I had provided a detailed explanation for the changes. Why can't you actually use the Talk page to discuss issues in the article? You assert that "healer" is POV but do not explain why you think it is POV, or what POV is represents. The opening is indeed NPOV because it provides the view of historians, Jesus' Jewish contemporaries, Muslims, and Christians. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have now reverted me 3 times. Twice Or was it 3?) before ANYTHING appeared here - and with nothing in edit summaries but "less POV". You complain I did not explain, then complain about my explanation. Healer is POV that he had healing powers. I included healer in mine in a more NPOV way & you reinserted your POV. You have not been following the edits over the last day. Scriptural is overly-reverential (& a redirect) when historicity & specificity are called for - specifically mention of New Testament. Your Talmud insertion is worth considering. Your removal of material on his existence is not. Because sources & existence are open to question, they need to be introduced before asserting any description of him. Putting name content so early delays getting to anything about who he was. I will leave it to someone else to put my last content back until tomorrow so I do not do 3 reverts as you have -- JimWae 19:29, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)-- JimWae 19:20, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
Gentlemen - please. Religion is always a difficult POV call, and requires patience. One point - and I'm not getting in the middle of this entire thing - a person can be described as a healer without the implication of a miracle worker. I admit this would be difficult in Jesus' case. But, a healer was a valid category of teacher during the period, whether they healed by the spirit or by more conventional means for the time. Peace. WBardwin 19:35, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Look at my edit summaries which you yourself provided a link to in an edit summary - there are plenty of explanations there. You've really screwed up the first paragraph. To immediately say he WAS born & died & WAS a preacher & healer, is to undermine the possibility from the outset that he never lived. To say his existence is accepted is to ignore the questions that remain unresolved - much of the acceptance he's given is just presumptive because it is undecideable. To say he was a prophet in Islam before saying he is central to Christianity is putting the cart before the horse - that's why I put his centrality in the first sentence. You have repeated Jesus Christ unneccessarily in the 1st two sentences. You have again linked dating to "sacred texts" instead of naming the New Testament. There is now no mention of Common Era in article - and such IS appropriate for intro- and is mentioned similarly in other encyclopedia. There's so much more - please read my version again.-- JimWae 19:52, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
If dating system is irrelevant, fine, but if not, its the Anno Domini system, not the CE.
Fish Supper continues to revert my change of "at odds with other Jewish Preachers" to "at odds with Jewish authorities." Why? My change was simply to follow up on the suggestion of Jayjg. If you think Jayjg was wrong, why not explain why on the talk page? In any event, I know of no evidence that Jesus was ot odds with other preachers. Please cite your source. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:00, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yet Fish Supper keeps reverting! What can I do? I cannot block him/her since I am in conflict, but I just do not see how we can allow an editor who is only disruptive, refusing to participate in discussions on the talk page, refusing to provide evidence or sources, adding nothing to the article, and only reverting everything I do, to continue doing this. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
JimWae, you just wrote an edit summary, "it's being at odds with authorities that is important to story" but as far as I can tell, your edit had nothing to do with his being at odds with authorities. Are you being deliberately deceptive? Or is this a typical Wikipedia glitch, in either how you saved your edit, or how I am retreiving the edit history? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Look again, I guess, when you are again allowed or whenever -- JimWae 23:44, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
I had made the same change much earlier -- but you guys were so intent on reverting you were not paying attention. Btw, How is it you can still post? -- JimWae 01:23, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
I also am quite content with the article as it now stands. I must point out it is substantially as I had left it before you started reverting anything, with some improvements of course. I think it is better now than it was, in part thanks to you but also to those who backed me up, but it should not take all day to accomplish that. The part about Common Era has relevance for 2 reasons - it has bearing on estimates of his birth - it displays how important he is considered that the calendar is STILL "based" on him. But the shorter version now there is an improvement over the longer more detailed one, which content is now included below. I also made the AD-CE & BC-BCE transition - except where context demanded otherwise. I am sure we shall meet again & let's try to "presume" the best about each other then. Cheers, -- JimWae 01:53, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
Both Fish Supper and Slrubenstein have been blocked for 24 hours for their respective violations of the 3RR. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:36, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday I added a clause stating that the Talmud also mentions Jesus. Jayjg had a reasonable argument for deleting that clause, and I accepted his deletion. However, I have been doing more research and have now put the clause in. The fact is, there are at least some scholars who do believe that certain passages in the Talmud refer to the same Jesus who is the subject of this article. It is true that the Talmud was not committed to print until the sixth century, but it contains within it texts from the first and second centuries. Many of the passages that specifically referred to the Christian Jesus and Christianity were censored by the Church in the Middle Ages (or left out by Jewish printers who were afraid of Church censorship), which is why someone who has read the Talmud today would not find these passages. However, Talmud scholars -- I mean critical scholars, not rabbis -- have identified several earlier manuscripts that contain these passages. The passages in the Talmud come from the Tosefta, which originates in the second century -- in other words, not much older than Josephus and the Gospels. If we mention Josephus, who may not even have written the passages ascribed to him, we should at least mention the Talmud. I added a paranthetical to make clear that the Talmud passages in question should not be read as history. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- In support of Slrubenstein, I think his passage summarises the current position well. Although most scholars don't think there is a correspondance between Yeshu and Jesus, this remains an important minority position, and one that is more widespread outside academia. Therefore, I think it should be mentioned, if only to largely dismiss it. I think that the satement should be restored, with the addition of a link to the Yeshu article: "and in the Talmud (although most scholars do not view the relevant passages as historically accurate or as refering to Jesus; see Yeshu)." -- G Rutter 18:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, can you explain to me why you disagree? My sources are Daniel Boyarin, a Talmud professor at Berkeley, Shaye J.D. Cohen, professor of Hebrew Literature and Philosophy at Harvard University, and Jeffrey Rubenstein (no relation, I swear!), professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University. I am using works they have published within the last ten years; Rubenstein's book is 2002, so this reflects the most recent scholarship. These are three very well-regarded scholars at prestigious universities, so surely you can understand why I believe that the sentence concerning the Talmud should be in the article. You say that many Talmud scholars (and I assume you mean critical scholars) do not believe that the toseftas refer to Jesus. Can you tell me who you are referring to? Okay, you disagree with me, but can't you explain why? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:42, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Historicity section DOES need serious work - another revert war will accomplish nothing. The "acceptance" (as it appears) is a little too facile, but the part about "for ancient standards" (or whatever) is worth keeping. Many people accept his existence just as a presumption - finding it undecideable & not worth the time to argue over. The section also needs expanding -- JimWae 18:40, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
Rev of Bru, I seriously appreciate your kind remarks. But I ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt in understanding that when I make an edit I believe I am writing something that is accurate and that doesn't violate NPOV. If you disagree with me, please take the time to explain why before (or at the very least, immediately after!) you revert. Now, the matter on hand. I do not think that the distinction between secular and religious is always useful. I do understand why you would think so, but I know many religious people who do not believe that the Bible is literally true or describes events that actually ocurred. I also know atheists who don't really understand critical scholarship and make claims that really are tenuous at best, and often just wrong. When I say "critical scholar," I mean someone who assumes that texts, no matter what their claims, were written by people for people; and who uses the critical tools of comparative literature and history to interpret texts. Since I have done a fair amount of research in this matter I feel comfortable with my own judgement, but I know that is no reason for anyone to accept my judgement. So in this particular matter what I do is I ask historians and Bible critics in major (secular) universities what books they assign. I also look for books written by professors at prestigious universities, published by academic presses. I look for books written by people who publish in peer-reviewed academic journals, and whose works are cited by others who publish in peer-reviewed academic journals. And I have to say, several of the people you name fall short.
Now, I believe that the people I have read represent what scholars consider reliable scholarship: From Jesus to Christ by Paula Fredricksen, William Goodwin Aurelio Professor of Scripture, Boston University, and published by Yale University Press; The Historical Figure of Jesus by E.P. Sanders, professor of religion at Duke University, published by Penguin; Jesus the Jew: A Historian's Reading of the Gospels, by Geze Vermes, Emeritus Professor of Jewish Studies at Oxford and member of the British Acadamy; The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament by Bart Ehrman, Chair, Department of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, published by Oxford University Press — these are all critical scholars whose research is in no way dictated by religious dogma, who teach at major research universities in the US (except for Vermes, who teaches at a university in England that I have heard of, maybe it is a good school), and I am confident that if you asked anyone who has published on Jesus or the New Testament in peer-reviewed scholarly journals, they will agree that these are well-respected prominent scholars – all of these books accept the existence of Jesus even as they question the New Testament account of events, and orthodox Christian interpretations of the New Testament.
Now, as to the people you mention. Earl Doherty, though not trained in NT studies, is certainly a legitimate scholar and his argument is fascinating. But his argument does not require that Jesus never lived, it only claims that the Jesus in the NT was not the "real" Jesus that lived. No one would argue with his claim that Paul and perhaps John created a Jesus very different from the man who lived — which is actually precisely why I think critical studies of Jesus the man are so valuable. Timothy Freke has a BA in philosophy, and to my knowledge was never trained in critical history and hasn't published in peer-reviewed journals. Sorry, but not my idea of a real scholar. Peter Gandy at least has an MA in Classical Civilization, but as far as I am concerned there is no comparison between his credentials and scholarship and that of Sanders, Vermes, etc. Alvar Elegard is a real scholar, but if I understand him, he is claiming (like the scholars I rely on) that the NT reflects the views of Christians in the second century; this does not mean Jesus never existed. Robert M. Price is a very good scholar, but as far as I can tell he is agnostic concerning the existence of Jesus (not the same thing as definitively claiming that Jesus never existed). Frank R. Zindler is a biologist and geologist! He has no training in comparative literature, history, classics or the ancient Near East. Again, I don't see how there is any comparison between his scholarship and that of Sanders and Vermes. Tom Harper is a real scholar of early Christianity, although I do not think he has a PhD. But Rev, you make such a big deal about secular scholars and Harper is not secular!! He is an Anglican priest who taught at the Toronto School of Theology! G.A. Wells was a professor of German, never trained in Roman or Biblical history or literature or language. Credentials are not the only problem. He does not use the critical tools of historical scholarship, and in my book doesn't even rate. I know Marcello Craveri has written on the apocrypha, but I do not know what his credentials are. I do not know what Luigi Cascioli's credentials are either. I have read only a review of his book, but if it is accurate he uses the tools of a lawyer to prove that Jesus never existed. I have also heard lawyers claim that using their standards, God really did reveal ten commandments at Sinai, so I am sceptical of lawyers trying to do history. I prefer trained historians. Italo Libri is a lecturer of mechanical technology. He may be secular, but he is no scholar.
Look Rev of Bru, I know that there are scholars who do not believe Jesus existed and I have never deleted the claim that some do not believe he exists. But be reasonable: when someone asks you for a list of scholars, don't give us a mechanical engineer, a professor of German, and a geologist. If you insist on the article stating that "most secular scholars believe Jesus never existed," I will have to add "scholars of German, mechanical engineering, and geology." When I write "most accept the existence of Jesus" I am referring to prestigious critical scholars of Roman Palestine, the New Testament, or some other field that actually involves expert critical study of Jesus and the NT. I maintain that the scholars I listed are unquestionably among the top critical scholars of the New Testament or Biblical history. And they accept the existance of Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do not know if we are miscommunicating or what. Ian Wilson is not on my list and I am certain that I have never mentioned him. As for Einstein, he may have worked in a patent office, but he had a PhD. in physics and his articles on the photo-electric effect and Special Relativity wwere published in reputable journals and he recieved the Noble Prize. All of this is evidence of the recognition given to him by his peers in physics. Now, there is no Noble Prize Sanders, Fredricksen, Vermes and Bartman can win. But they clearly are well-regarded by other critical scholars of the NT and History. So your Einstein analogy supports my claim. I do not see how it supports your claim. Zindler, Wells, and Libri have no been recognized by experts in this field, so there is no comparison between their situation and Einstein's.
You have no evidence that the scholars I rely on had preconceived conclusions, and my reading of their works is that they do/did not have preconceived notions. When you say "Christian scholar" do you mean anyone who disagrees with you? I just do not see how this comment relates to the scholars I listed.
It is not enough for them to claim to be specialists. Most critical Bible scholars and historians went through rigorous training in critical theory and methods; the ones that I rely on have clearly established themselves among their peers. I am not dismissing Zindler, Wells, and Libri because they have other fields of knowledge. I am criticizing them because their work on this particular topic does not meet the standards of critical scholarship.
I do not understand your point here. If by "Christian scholar" you mean someone whose scholarship is based on assumptions that come from their religion, and is meant to serve their religion, I do not understand your point. The scholars on my list are not "Christian scholars" as I made crystal clear above. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:08, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
By the way, I know that your last edit was in the spirit of compromise and I appreciate that. I really do believe we can work out something that everyone will consider accurate. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re:
In the Alexander article we have very specific info, such as -- "In the afternoon of 323 BC June 10, Alexander died of a mysterious illness in the palace of Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon. He was only 33 years old." Also: somebody had to be the leader for a series of conquests
E.P Sanders may argue that -- but WHY should anyone listen to him? What doubts, if any, does he raise about Alexander?-- JimWae 08:48, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)
He's the only name mentioned - there's lots of "some historians", "many historians", "most historians", " a number of historians". More names need to be added. It seems extremely unreasonable to doubt Alexander's existence, but far from entirely unreasonable to doubt Jesus'. Is that the best example anyone can give? The Homer one seems more on a parallel -- JimWae 19:05, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)
You're getting the wrong idea about my intentions - when I have more time I will hunt down the Homerr-Hesiod source-- JimWae 19:28, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)
I have some doubts about this phrase in the historicity section, concerning people who take a purely naturalistic approach: "are particularly skeptical" about miracles and such. Maybe people who are inclined toward a naturalistic approach are skeptical, but I think that if we are talking about people who are purely naturalistic this phrase is hedging and I think should be phrased more strongly. I think people who take a purely naturalistic approach flat-out reject miracles and stuff. How about something like, "reject supernatural elements in the accounts, including the resurection" or something? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Which fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls refer to Jesus? Jayjg (talk) 20:55, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As a passing stranger, I reverted some recent edits by User:Rossnixon for the following reasons: 1) the "a" before "Jesus" when discussing Josephus is a sensible rider and 2) a statement that no serious historian doubts the existence of the Jesus is far too sweeping. It only takes one reader to adduce one historian who does doubt this to call into question the accuracy of this article and, by extention, the whole of Wikipedia. This kind of sweeping statement cannot be made without cast-iron referencing. Filiocht | Blarneyman 09:35, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
That was me. On consideration, I would concede point "2", as this was a historical quote from around 1972, which could easily be (or become) outdated. However, the statement accredited to Josephus obviously points to Jesus. ...Regarding the extra-biblical sources I have added, you will find most of them confirmed (with details) by looked at the articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Historicity and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_textual_evidence I will revert, and remove the sentence I concede to be potentially outdated. RossNixon 09:53, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was a silly mistake and when I realized what I had done I went to put it back but it looks like someone already has.
I fixed the following passage:
The problem with it is that it sounds redundant, because it is poorly organized. It contains three claims: (1) A number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived, (2)most religious and secular scholars presume his existence, (3) many find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone. Obviously the first and third claim go together -- people who seriously question Jesus' existence are also likely to find his existence undecidable by historical means alone. I do not want to delete content, so I will not delete one of these redundant claims. But it is poor organization to have a "jesus didn't exist" claim followed by a "jesus did exist" claim and them followed by a "Jesus didn't exist claim." This isn't a debate (or a tennis match) -- we just want to communicate different positions. So I put claims (1) and (3) together. Also, I deleted the following: "However, ancient historical and mythological figures are often portrayed only from references written centuries after their deaths." What is the point of this here? Maybe ancient historical and mythological figures are often portrayed after their deaths (or what they claim is the date of their deaths). So? All that matter here is Jesus. The fact that one person's death was not recorded until centuries later does not prove anything, one way or the other, concerning another persons' death. And if this is a point specifically made by a historian concerning Jesus, well, let's put it in the historicity section -- it is extraneous here. We have communicated two views: some believe he existed, some do not. A detailed catalogue of the reasons belongs in the body, not the introduction. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Rev of Bru, please read weasel words and you will see this article to be full of them: e.g. Many historians - how many (many implies a majority if no reference point is given).
AD and CE are different? I fail to see how. Leaving aside the arguments about usage, they are absolutely identical in their reckoning of years.
I changed skeptical to doubtful. These words are equivalent in the current context. However, skeptical is American English whereas doubtful is neutral. This was my reason for changing it. I'm reverting it to doubtful, but what was your reason for reverting to skeptical?
At one point I replaced undecideable, a very clumsy word that doesn't appear in most dictionaries (e.g. this one). I see it has also been reverted. Can we come up with something else please? Arcturus 22:13, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Skeptical, doubtful.. what might be better? Arcturus 22:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Rev of Bru, do you want to take this to mediation? You revert what I write, you refuse to explain why, and you refuse to respond to my explanations. This is inappropriate behavior. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:42, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is what I wrote: "Although most religious and secular scholars accept the existence of Jesus, a number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived and find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone." Now, please explain what "slanted, biased POV" is expressed in this sentence? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jim, I appreciate your desire to compromise, but I have the same problem with what you wrote as with the earlier version. There are two positions being represented here -- some think he didn't exist, some do. In the version you came up with, the second position was placed in the middle of the first position (in other words, the sentence opens by saying some don't think he existed, then saying some do, then saying some don't). I just think this is poor style. There are two positions. Express each of them -- once. I do not care in what order (in other words, I do not care if it says "Although most religious and secular scholars accept the existence of Jesus, a number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived and find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone." OR "A number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived and find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone, although most religious and secular scholars accept the existence of Jesus." But represent one position, then the other -- not one position, then the other, then the first one again! Slrubenstein | Talk 22:03, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have no problem with the compromise version JimWae just came up with. I hope Rev of Bru feels the same way. Thanks, Jim. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Given these definitions, "accept" is clearly the more appropriate word. For you to insist on "presume" is simply an example of POV warrioring. You refuse to accept the fact that many scholars disagree with you. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC) Your POV is showing. There is no way that an honest scholar should believe in things without any evidence. Stop pushing your POV. List these scholars. I have requested that you do so on many occasions. I provided a list of several secular scholars who feel the evidence does not suggest a physical character. You have yet to name any secular scholars. You have the POV issue. The Rev of Bru
You are lying. Your list of "secular scholars" is mostly crap -- a German teacher, geologist, and mechanical engineer may be scholars of German, geology, and mechanical engineering, but they are not scholars of NT history. Moreover, I provided you with a list of the top NT scholars in the world. I explained that they are critical scholars, and I explained what a critical scholar is. My POV is this: if I want to know what scholars think, I look at scholars and see what they think. This is precisely the "POV" editors of an encyclopedia must have. Your POV on the other hand is this: you read books, and any book that supports your preconceived beliefs you call "scholarship," and any book that challenges your preconceived beliefs you dismiss. this is precisely not the POV that an encyclopedia should have. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:39, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
You have no evidence that Sanders, Fredriksen, Bartman, Vermes, or Crossan never questioned whether Jesus existed or not. Indeed, their books reveal that they have considered this question. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:46, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I have been thinking more about JimWae's compromise. Although initially I liked it, I now think that the phrase "no doubt" is inappropriate. We do not know for sure whether any of the major historians who accept Jesus' existence have no doubts. No doubts suggests a dogmatism I think historians universally eschew. Even historians who firmly believe that Jesus exist admit that it is possible that he didn't. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:14, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I was asked to comment on this yesterday; sorry for the delay. I know nothing about the specific topic, but regarding the issue of scholarship, this is an academic subject, and therefore the sources deemed authoritative for Wikipedia must be academic sources, by which I mean a person holding a relevant academic position in a recognized university, or someone who has held such a position for a significant period of time, and who is publishing on this topic in peer-reviewed journals or whose books on this topic have been published by an academic/university press. The issue of peer review is the crucial one. The distinction between religious and secular scholars is irrelevant, in my view: the point is to survey peer-reviewed academic opinion, regardless of the personal spiritual beliefs of the academics in question. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:46, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
I was the one who started "Jesus is not a Jew". After some reading and dialogue with other Christians, I've come to the conclusion that "Jews" throughout are not nearly as homogenous as I initially thought. When he said "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.... He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is you are not of God", was his attack exclusively directed at the Jews who lived by the Talmud? According to some interpretations I've read, this was because he saw in them a distortion of the Torah, and the supposedly-false idea of the Talmud that "the Chosen People" applied to Jews only?
Yes, it's been a while since I read those - harsh evidence. But then again, Jesus seems to have disagreed with the Pharisees/Talmudists on the (remaining) validness of these texts. Otherwise, why the "You are of your father the devil..."? --Threadstarter
1. Shimon bar Yona [Mt16:17] or Shimon bar Yochanan [Jn1:42] 2. Yaqov son of Zebedee and his brother: 3. Yochanan (together called Boanerges the Thunder Brothers) 4. Andreas brother of Shimon, disciple of John the Baptist [Jn1:35,40] 5. Philippos from Bathesda 6. Bartholomaios 7. Maththaios, a tax collector 8. Toma (the twin) 9. James son of Alpheus 10. Thaddaios [Mk3:18,Mt10:3 majority] 11. Judas son of James [Lk6:16,Ac1:13] or Judas not Skariotes [Jn14:22] 12. Lebbeus [Mk3:18,Mt10:3 v.l.] 13. Shimon the Zealot [Lk6:15] 14. Judas Skariotes (the assassin)
John 17:3. Father is the one true God; Jesus is the one sent by God, the Messiah
Jesus didn't claim to be God; The Gospels don't claim Jesus is God; The Letters of Paul don't claim Jesus is God. It's a later proclamation of the Church of Rome, its source is the gnostics who where the first to claim that Jesus was God and the first to invent the extra-biblical concept of the Trinity
User:Arcturus objects to use use of Common Era
Arcturus has characterized his reverting of my use of Common Era as "reverting vandalism & minor edits" [2]. This is either total misunderstanding of Common Era, or an attempt to disguise his changes
I introduced Common Era on April 19 after discussion on this page (copied between lines below)
- ... Now, if you want to propose changing all dates to CE/BCE, I have no objection, indeed, I would strongly support that. But if there is a consensus to use the conventional AD/BC, then we should follow that convention. I see no point to adding a discussion of BC/CE in the introduction. As I said, if you want to change all dates to BCE/CE I don't object but youshould see what other people think, first. As for your other comments, some are reasonable and I will try to make changes, in the spirit of compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- How about now? Why do you think it is better to have a discussion of CE dating system in the introdcution? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The dating system is the Anno Domini system, NOT the CE system! What is the problem with stating Anno Domini system (correctly)?
If dating system is irrelevant, fine, but if not, its the Anno Domini system, not the CE.
- Hey, I am just replying to JimWae. But the argument against AD is that it violates our NPOV policy. Many editors and readers of Wikipedia do not consider Jesus to be their "lord." To use AD is to imply that according to Wikipedia Jesus really was/is the Lord -- a Christian POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't intend to do any editing of this article, but I'd like to say that it's POV and inappropriate to use BC/AD, because as Slrubenstein says, it implies that Jesus really was someone by whom dates ought to be set, whereas the Wikipedia article should only describe who says what about him, but should not take a side; using BC/AD not only takes a side, but does so in an implicit, almost structural way. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:55, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting using the AD dating system in the article, I am saying that the dating system which used the date arbitrarily assigned to Jesus' birth is the AD system. I agree that using the CE system for dates is preferable. The Rev of Bru
On April 25 this was surreptitiously changed by an anonymous editor who also added clear proselytizations - which were later deleted, but not the AD/CE change until I redid that recently
CE & AD are not equivalent (as Arcturus has said in his edits) -- they may be the same in extension (semantics), but not in intension. JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
The Jesus article is NOT an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus in as NPOV as possible. There are already numerous POV articles on Jesus: Christian views of Jesus, Religious perspectives on Jesus, New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christianity and who knows how many other near-duplications. There is, it turns out, also a Jewish view of Jesus, but not yet an Atheist views of Jesus, Mormon view of Jesus, Unitarian views of Jesus :)
Why would use of Common Era be an insult to the followers of "that religion" - unless it offends them that not everyone worships Jesus as Lord? Consider how those (the majority) who do not take Jesus as "the Lord" must consider seeing Anno Domini every time they see a reference to the calendar.
Notice AD & BC are used when discussing the Anno Domini system developed by Dionysius Exiguus. It is particularly important in the Jesus article, perhaps more than in any other, to use Common Era to avoid the appearance of POV endorsement that Jesus is Lord.
To reiterate: The Jesus article is not an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus done as neutrally as possible.-- JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article. Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC– AD 1 or 1 BCE– 1 CE.
Arcturus is being churlish. Although he defends BC and AD, he has not real criticism of BCE and CE. In any event, several people have agreed that BC and CE is more appropriate. Five people against one certainly is good reason to make a change. But even if there were no discussion, the change is fully justified because AD violates our NPOV policy. Earlier, Arcturtus wrote "if you can show me anywhere in the Wikipedia style guidelines that state AD notation is POV then I'll stop using it right now!" which is either woefully ignorant or disingenuous. Wikipedia has article on Naziism, Race, the Holocauts, Fascism -- and in each of these articles NPOV has been an issue at one point or another. An encyclopedia as expansive and inclusive as Wikipedia cannot have a specific policy on every specific phrase that comes up in Wikipedia. It is absurd to think that our NPOV policy has to catelogue all conceivable violations of NPOV. No, a policy is general so it can be applied to a variety of cases. AD reflects the views of a particular group, therefore it is POV, period. AD means Anno Domini means Our Lord means Jesus is our Lord. There are many people who do not consider Jesus their lord, do not use the terms BC and AD, and object to using BC and AD in secular works. Of course I fully understand why Christian works would use BC and AD. Earlier Arcturus claims that an article about Christianity should use AD — another patently absurd claim. First, this is not an article about Christianity, it is an article of Jesus, a character (real or fictional) of interest to Christians, Muslims, Jews, as well as secular/critical historians. Second, even if this were the article on Christianity (i.e., Christianity) I would argue that we should use NPOV terms like BCE and CE. Surely, you do not think that in the article on Hitler, we should take Hitler's point of view? Similarly, an article on Christianity should not take a Christian point of view — it should provide as many various views as are important, in an NPOV way. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:15, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Arcturus, first: stop ignoring the discussion on this page. Second: stop reverting when you are in the minority. See if you can change the minds of others. Also, familiarize yourself with our NPOV policy, as you keep violating it. Finally, do not claim I have provided no explanation when I have provided considerable explanation. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:20, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude, This is not about JimWae's individual point of view. JimWae, Jayjg, SlimVirgin, Rev of Bru, and I all agree that BCE/CE is better. Even if you agree with Arcturus, you are still in a minority. But this is not just about numbers, this is about reasons. I provided a lengthy explanation above, and you have not even responded to it. Please explain how calling 2005 or any other date "the year of our Lord" is neutral? As for Gene Nygaard, the "burden of proof" has been met, through the explanations provided by myself, JimWae, Jayjg, Slim Virgin, and Rev of Bru. Here you simply assert your own opinion. Don't use a "burden of proof" argument to excuse your own ignorance or laziness — if you have good reasons for using AD, and a response to my explanation above, provide it. If you do not, your case is weak. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:06, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Slrubenstein - You and others may favor BCE/CE, but there are also persons who disagree with you and wikipedia's consensus policies oblige you to at minimum take that fact into consideration. One could also reasonably contest your characterization of the other position being in the minority when the entire history of changes to this article is taken into consideration. Just glancing over the last week or so I see at least four different editors who have attempted to restore part or all of the original BC/AD designation. Each time they have been reverted by one of only two people: you or JimWae. You are indeed correct that this is about reasons though, and as I have noted, none of the reasons given thus far rise to a sufficient level to merit your change. Why? Because your reasons all revolve around your belief that BCE/CE is more "neutral" than BC/AD, yet this finding is in conflict with Wikipedia's style guide that explicitly says "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable" so long as the same one is used throughout the article. IOW, this issue has already been decided elsewhere for wikipedia in general and that decision did not give any advantage or favor to one over the other. That you, JimWae, and a handful of others believe favor should be given to BCE/CE over BC/AD, thus justifying your proposed change, is in conflict with the remainder of wikipedia, which deems that no such preference should be given to one over the other. That fact deprives you of the dominant justification for your change, and since changes that are made without any legitimate reason are automatically subject to scrutiny, that defaults us back to the original use that existed in this article from its creation: BC/AD. Also, please be mindful of making an excessive number of reversions in 24 hours, Slrubenstein. I have made the limit and will not revert beyond that until after the proper time expires. You, OTOH, have made no less than four reversions between 17:00 and 20:00 today alone. You're currently in excess of wikipedia's reveresion policy, so I suggest that you cease and desist for the time being. Rangerdude 20:01, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Notice I have listed this debate on the Wikipedia:Requests for Comment page. Summary of Debate (read this entire section for details):
Definitely use BCE. It's what historians use. -- goethean 19:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Dude, if as you say the policy allows either AD or CE, then you have no ground to stand on. Essentially, If Wikipedia policy accepts both, then there is no strict policy. Put another way, the policy supports JimWae and the rest of us at least as much as it supports you. That means that this dispute has to be decided on other grounds than Wikipedia's style guide. JimWae, I, and others have explained our reasons. You still have none. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:38, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
RK - It is our job to educate readers on factual information by facilitating their use through a format that is friendly and readable. It is NOT our job to encourage readers to adopt a less common dating system that a small fraction of WP editors believe to be superior to the standard one for whatever reasons you or anybody else may think. If we use BC/AD there's little doubt that 99.9% of readers who come along will comprehend exactly what it means. When they see the date 12 BC they know that it means 12 years before the year 1, which is traditionally considered the year of Christ's birth. The same cannot be said about the BCE/CE system, which is hardly even known of outside of scholarly circles, and even there its use is a modern phenomenon that's still in the minority. If they have to click on a link to figure out what "CE" means it distracts and detracts away from the ease with which the present article is understood. Seeing as wikipedia is official neutral over which of the two is appropriate, seeing as the original article used BC/AD, and seeing as this system is substantially more familiar to wikipedia's target audience, the concept of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. Right now I have seen little to no compelling reason exists to merit a change, and only blatant POV renderings aimed not at justifying BCE/CE per se but rather passing judgement in favor of its precedence over BC/AD, which as I noted conflicts with wikipedia's official neutrality on the two. Rangerdude 22:07, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Here is just one of the many google searches which shows a huge number of hits in favour of BC. 3000 BC 3000 BCE-- Silversmith 22:19, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
You guys are going over old ground. See Dechristenization Movement and the New Calender Nobs 22:43, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Mel - Actually, no. You didn't give us any better estimate of dating systems in your first comment. You simply asserted your position to be so and dismissed all others. Quod gratis asseritur, buddy. As for English speaking countries, their use of the English language is about as broad a measure as one can get for determining the most commonly used dating system in the English language for an encyclopedia written in English. If you're so keen on other dating systems, make your edits as appropriate on the Jesus article here Rangerdude 22:58, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
[4] [5] And, looking on Italian google, searching only pages in Italian, you get thousands more for BC than BCE. 3000 BC 3000 BCE Also, as for books not internet, here are just a few I have looked at: Glass, 5,000 years - Hugh Tait. Glass Source Book - Jo Marshall. The Splendor of Ethnic Jewelry - France Borel. Quotes:
I've yet to see any proof that BCE/CE is more common. -- Silversmith 23:28, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I pulled some books off my shelf to see which dating system is commonly used by scholars and historians who have written on the topic of Jesus. Geza Vermes, not a Christian, uses BC/AD. N.T. Wright, who is a Christian, also uses BC/AD, however, he has expressed that some editors of his books have required him to use BCE/CE and that he did not feel it was a big deal to do so. Personally, I prefer BCE/CE in most cases, as it sounds more neutral to my nonChristian ears. However, since both dating systems are acceptable to Wikipedia, and scholars do in fact use both, if any article is going to use BC/AD, this one on Jesus is probably the most appropriate place to use it. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 03:24, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
There are several problems with your arguments, Jim.
This is the exact same kind of nonsensical hairsplitting you attempted over on the articles pertaining to secession, Jim, not to mention the Morrill Tariff before that. In both cases you came along, saw something that evidently did not mesh well with your personal POV, and then attempted to expunge it by claiming that whatever you didn't like was not NPOV itself. In both cases, as with this one, your standard for NPOV was not one of wikipedia's policies on how articles should be written, but rather your own personal opinion. You didn't like the way that historians portrayed the Morrill Tariff, so you responded by trying to alter their views to suit your own opinion. You didn't like how the dictionary defined the word secession, so you responded by trying to change the definition to suit your own opinion. Now you don't like that wikipedia tolerates the traditional BC/AD date system, so you respond by trying to cast it as non-neutral even though wikipedia's policy finds nothing wrong with its use and gives no deferrence to the alternative you propose in its place. Wikipedia is not your personal playpen to bog down with JimWae's "opinion of the week" whatever it may be. If you want to make edits around here you need to grow up and start making constructive edits instead of the POV-driven censorship that characterizes your posting patterns. Rangerdude 07:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
My 2c. I've never liked "Common era". Who has it in common with whom? Whatever we call the years, they're dated from the presumed birth of Jesus. I'm an atheist and I don't give a fig about AD meaning "anno domini". It's just a pair of letters. I don't see any great need to replace them, and I don't like the fabrication of a "common era" to do so. It does have some currency though, so it has to be considered. The stuff about offending the nonChristian is utter bollocks. You'd need a very thin skin to get offended at that! I don't see anyone agitating for dates to be given in other calendars.
But that's just my opinion. Had I seen it on the page when I came to it, I certainly wouldn't change it. My view is we should go with whichever was used first. There's precedent for that on Wikipedia and I think it's a good way to resolve what is otherwise an intractable argument. I'm not going to go back and look but my small voice is added to the clamour for whichever it was. Grace Note 04:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
-that's your opinion & you are of course entitled to it. It is not, however, about being offended; it is about being forced to accept (swallow) "Jesus is Lord" when there is a more neutral alternative.-- JimWae 05:05, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
No, it is purposely an attempt to be non-Christian, not anti-Christian - to not include acceptance of Jesus as Lord in the calendar. It's acceptable to have the years be based on the faulty reckoning (for want of a better, non-disruptive system) -- but that's quite enough. It is not acceptable (to me and to many anyway) to have to also (for all time) accept surreptitiously that Jesus is Lord. Do you not care about the attempts of some others to make a few improvements in the world? Are you content to also let all manner of cultural biases be permanently entrenched?-- JimWae 05:48, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
Morning Star & Evening Star have the same extension (semantics), but not the same intension. Ethnic & sexual slurs and more neutral terms also ... Humanity makes some rogress when this is realized and changes are made. Note the objections above that Common Era is more of that PC stuff - as though being "PC" were immediately an argument about eternal worthlessness -- JimWae 06:01, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
If it is true that Common Era is not understood outside America, then your argument is with wikipedia manual of style, not me. Btw, I am "outside America" myself. And AGAIN it is not about being offended, it is about insensitivity & could care-less-ness -- JimWae 06:36, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
The method of dating using Anno Domini is not, Western, Christian or Eurocentric; it is currently commonly used globally by all cultures and civilizations, Islamic, Sinic, Japanese, Hindu, etc. The United Nations, for example, all UN Resolutions are dated using Anno Domini calender, as do all UN NGO's conduct business as such. Jesus, what a sterile debate. Nobs 06:52, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
I deleted a section someone added to "historicity" because (1) it was written in a highly POV way, (2) it is a fringe theory that at the most merits only a minor mention and link to some other page, and (3) this is something CheeseDreams pushed obsessively, and, before she was banned, we reached an agreement that it was not appropriate here. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:45, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Dirtygreek 18:53, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In fact, most historians reject the claims you are making. The Jesus article is long and an NPOV article discussing the claims you make would require much more development. Remove the content, put in a link, and create a separate article. Also, check and see what other articles already address these claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:05, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The article's description of Jesus as "a Jewish preacher and healer" is based on biased historic propaganda, not evidence. History of populations and the new testament holds substantial evidence against its correctness. I suggest that all blind assumptions of his "Jewishness" are removed, and there should be no reference to his "Jewishness" other than in the form of (or in a section neutrally presenting) arguments for or against why he should be considered a Jew. For those who blindly take his Jewishness as given, this link may shed some light upon you: http://www.sweetliberty.org/perspective/jewishpersecution7.htm
It is absolutely central to Jesus's story that he was Jewish. King of the Jews in fact. ( Grace Note 06:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC))
Their messiah. Etc. If he existed, he was Jewish in the commonly accepted meaning of that word. However, to suggest that the gospels are good historical sources seems a bit iffy to me and suggesting that Jesus was a preacher and healer doubly so. It's laughable to quote Josephus as proof but ignore other things he said. Many people hold the view that he didn't exist and was an invention, or that if he existed, his reality was very far removed from that described in this article, even in the Mishna he's not the Christian Jesus exactly. I'm not going to bother editing this article -- I have no interest in causing a controversy! -- but I do want to note that the introduction seemed dodgy to me, and Will2K, Wikipedia is not like any other encyclopaedia. It doesn't print "mainstream views" as facts, but as mainstream views. That is the essence of what we are doing here, I believe. I think the first sentence should read that Jesus was "thought to be" or "claimed to be" or "traditionally was" or something that captures the doubt. Grace Note 06:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The anonymous user's claim that Jesus was not Jewish is based on a profound misunderstanding of historiography and historical research. It is true that modern Judaism grew out of rabbinic Judaism which grew out of the Pharisees. But that does not mean that non-pharisees were not Jews, or that before there were pharisees there were no Jews. What is true is that the meaning of "Jewish" has changed over the centuries, and is heterogeneous. Certainly, the Pharisees recognized non-Pharisees to be Jews. Even Herod, who was descended from Idumeans, was a Jew -- all historical sources from that time agree that he was a Jew. To say that Jesus was not a Jew because he did not adhere to the Talmud — which was compiled after he was killed – is like saying Robespierre was not French, because he did not grow up in the Fifth Republic, or like saying George Washington was not an American, because he was not born in "the United States of America." Slrubenstein | Talk 17:00, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
the commonly known distinction between Jewry and Christianity was born there.
Also, note that neither Hebrews who were Jesus' followers nor Hebrews who are Christian today are called Jews.
So therefore calling Jesus "Jewish" is valid, but only in a very small sense of what the word "Jewish" can mean.
Most Wikipedia articles are well-written enough not to describe all historical figures with semitic background or who are Israelis as "Jewish". Why is that? Because, "Jewish" is very inspecific and inexact when not applied to religious AND modern Jews. I only ask you, why is it NECESSARY?
It's not necessary to the Hebrews of the old testament, why should it be to Jesus? The word lacks CONTENT,
which other articles have in describing the person in a much more informative way - here are some examples from Wikipedia articles of much clearer ways to describe it...... "Sigmund Freud was born Sigismund Schlomo Freud into a Jewish family in Freiberg" "Albert Einstein's family was Jewish (and non-observant)" "Giacicomo Meyerbeer was born to a Jewish family in Vogelsdorf, Germany with the name Yaakov Liebmann Beer" "Felix Mendelssohn was born in Hamburg, the son of a banker, Abraham, who was himself the son of the famous Jewish philosopher, Moses Mendelssohn." "Gustav Mahler was born into a Jewish family in Kaliste, Bohemia." (perhaps this is so because he converted to Catholicism) "Daniel Barenboim (born November 15, 1942) is an Argentinean-Israeli pianist and conductor... ...his parents were Russian Jews." Even leaders such as Ariel Sharon are described as "Israeli", much more helpful than "Jewish", while for example "Jewish-American" for Steven Spielberg denotes that he is American with Jewish ancestry. --Threadstarter
The anonymous editor wrote this, above:
... which again reveals real ignorance of history and historiography. The main source we have for Jesus' life is the Gospels. What is this "Indo-European myth?" Some of the authors of NT books were Gentiles, but many were Jewish. What we see in the NT is the formation of a set of beliefs that originally constituted a branch of Judaism, and which then split off from Judaism to become a new religion. Historians do not reject it as myth (a meaningless word in this context) -- they see it as a document produced by a number of people over a certain period of time for certain purposes, and it is this context which provides scholars with a perspective to read it critically. But there is no historical research that starts with some other text. Why do you say that the "historical" Jesus was a harsh teacher? Why is Jesus as the divine healer of the sick not a Jewish Jesus? In fact, historians recognize that Jesus' healing the sick (or at least people believing he healed the sick) is one of the things that makes him Jewish, as this was a very common Jewish practice at the time. Historians do not necessarily believe that these people really could heal the sick -- but they do know that there were many Jews who claimed to have this power, and many Jews who believed them, so Jesus' being a healer is very much part of the "Jewish" Jesus and the historical Jesus. It is true that historians reject the claims about miracles and resurrection. But they still see Jesus as a central figure in the formation of Christianity. This does not mean he was not a Jew. Indeed, Jesus had to be a Jew, because only a Jew could be the messiah (the messiah was of the house of David). The last supper was a Passover seder (a major Jewish holiday). Jesus' followers claimed that he was prophesized by the prophets -- another mark of his Jewishness, since non-Jews didn't care what the Jews' sacred scripture said. He preached in Caperneum and Jerusalem -- both Jewish towns. His two most important "commandments," "The first is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these." happen also to be the two central commandments of the Pharisees (and were established as such before Jesus was born). If he were not Jewish, the Sanhedrin would not have tried him (if indeed they did), since they did not have authority over non-Jews. So -- why would anyone think that a guy with a Jewish name, who relies on the Hebrew Bible in his preaching, who preaches to Jews, who has Jewish disciples, who celebrates a Jewish holiday -- why would anyone think this guy wasn't Jewish? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"It is true that historians reject the claims about miracles and resurrection." - not necessarily. -- Eleassar777 14:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is not at all clear that Jesus "taught against the fundamentals of Jewish law;" this is a ridiculous claim. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't want to rely on a piece of anti-Semitism to support my claims, but if you insist — just because Luther was critical of Jews in his day, does not mean that Jesus was not Jewish. In the United States, Democrats today strongly dislike Republicans -- but none of them deny that Abe Lincoln was a Republican. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Christianity may be "anti-Judaism" (according to the Catholic Chucrch, Lutherans, and other denominations, though, it is not), but that does not mean that Jesus was not Jewish. "The chosen people" is not a "central" idea and developed over time, it is unclear as to whether Jews at that time used the phrase. Finally, Judaism was heterogeneous then as it is now, and just as today there are many Jews (and Jewish organizations) that reject the notion of "chosen people," there is no reason why Jews back then could not also have been divided on this issue. And what question about Martin Luther? You never asked any question about Martin Luther -- although I did respond to your statement about Martin Luther above, try reading it. In any case, nothing that you have just written responds to any of the points I made above, referring to the NT and the Catechism. Clearly, there are many true Christians who believe that Jesus was Jewish. If you do not understand how that could be, ask them! Slrubenstein | Talk 19:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You need to read your own Bible. Aside from the verses I quoted above, John 4:9 clearly identifies Jesus as a Jew. By the way, the Jewish concept of "chosen people" is not hierarchical -- God made promises to many other peoples besides the Jews. Perhaps you do not understand the Jewish concept of "chosen people" -- it in no way denies the fact that God chooses other peoples as well. Also, be careful about criticizing God's covenant with Israel because the fact of that covenant is the starting point for Christian theology. I am sorry you do not understand how Jesus could be a Jew. You have to talk to religious and knowledgable Christians, or theologians, to understand why. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:57, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course you can decide not to believe in Jesus and continue living your senseless life, but I assure that it will lead to destruction. Jesus lives and he offers you salvation. It is up to you.
Uh, who are you to judge a person's life as senseless, and state with assurance that their life (of which you know nothing) will lead to destruction? Please prosletyse by fear elsewhere; this is an online encyclopedia, where we try to deal with matters of fact, not faith. Thank you. Fergananim
The Common Era dating system is not based on the religious beliefs regarding the birth date of Jesus. To say otherwise is erroneous. Kelvin uses the same scale as celsius, but it is not based on the boiling point and freezing point of water. The anno Domini system is based on the date originally made up for Jesus' birth - the CE system is seperate and just uses the numbering of the most popular calendar. ~
-- JimWae 19:49, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)==Odd theory==
This was re-insterted by Slrubenstein. Can you (or someone else) please explain why the lead section should be clogged with detail like this, especially when constituting "theories that are not widely spread"? The lead section should only cover the most relevant facts. Fredrik | talk 18:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It seems that in his hurry to remove what he mistakenly claimed was POV, he reinserted several things that now appear twice - including a jpg. I have done some editing to clear up text to make it more apparent it is not POV -- JimWae 18:43, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
JimWae, you have just reverted my changes twice in a row, without explanation. Moreover, it is simply rude to make a major change without explaining it, especially when I had provided a detailed explanation for the changes. Why can't you actually use the Talk page to discuss issues in the article? You assert that "healer" is POV but do not explain why you think it is POV, or what POV is represents. The opening is indeed NPOV because it provides the view of historians, Jesus' Jewish contemporaries, Muslims, and Christians. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have now reverted me 3 times. Twice Or was it 3?) before ANYTHING appeared here - and with nothing in edit summaries but "less POV". You complain I did not explain, then complain about my explanation. Healer is POV that he had healing powers. I included healer in mine in a more NPOV way & you reinserted your POV. You have not been following the edits over the last day. Scriptural is overly-reverential (& a redirect) when historicity & specificity are called for - specifically mention of New Testament. Your Talmud insertion is worth considering. Your removal of material on his existence is not. Because sources & existence are open to question, they need to be introduced before asserting any description of him. Putting name content so early delays getting to anything about who he was. I will leave it to someone else to put my last content back until tomorrow so I do not do 3 reverts as you have -- JimWae 19:29, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)-- JimWae 19:20, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
Gentlemen - please. Religion is always a difficult POV call, and requires patience. One point - and I'm not getting in the middle of this entire thing - a person can be described as a healer without the implication of a miracle worker. I admit this would be difficult in Jesus' case. But, a healer was a valid category of teacher during the period, whether they healed by the spirit or by more conventional means for the time. Peace. WBardwin 19:35, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Look at my edit summaries which you yourself provided a link to in an edit summary - there are plenty of explanations there. You've really screwed up the first paragraph. To immediately say he WAS born & died & WAS a preacher & healer, is to undermine the possibility from the outset that he never lived. To say his existence is accepted is to ignore the questions that remain unresolved - much of the acceptance he's given is just presumptive because it is undecideable. To say he was a prophet in Islam before saying he is central to Christianity is putting the cart before the horse - that's why I put his centrality in the first sentence. You have repeated Jesus Christ unneccessarily in the 1st two sentences. You have again linked dating to "sacred texts" instead of naming the New Testament. There is now no mention of Common Era in article - and such IS appropriate for intro- and is mentioned similarly in other encyclopedia. There's so much more - please read my version again.-- JimWae 19:52, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
If dating system is irrelevant, fine, but if not, its the Anno Domini system, not the CE.
Fish Supper continues to revert my change of "at odds with other Jewish Preachers" to "at odds with Jewish authorities." Why? My change was simply to follow up on the suggestion of Jayjg. If you think Jayjg was wrong, why not explain why on the talk page? In any event, I know of no evidence that Jesus was ot odds with other preachers. Please cite your source. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:00, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yet Fish Supper keeps reverting! What can I do? I cannot block him/her since I am in conflict, but I just do not see how we can allow an editor who is only disruptive, refusing to participate in discussions on the talk page, refusing to provide evidence or sources, adding nothing to the article, and only reverting everything I do, to continue doing this. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
JimWae, you just wrote an edit summary, "it's being at odds with authorities that is important to story" but as far as I can tell, your edit had nothing to do with his being at odds with authorities. Are you being deliberately deceptive? Or is this a typical Wikipedia glitch, in either how you saved your edit, or how I am retreiving the edit history? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Look again, I guess, when you are again allowed or whenever -- JimWae 23:44, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
I had made the same change much earlier -- but you guys were so intent on reverting you were not paying attention. Btw, How is it you can still post? -- JimWae 01:23, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
I also am quite content with the article as it now stands. I must point out it is substantially as I had left it before you started reverting anything, with some improvements of course. I think it is better now than it was, in part thanks to you but also to those who backed me up, but it should not take all day to accomplish that. The part about Common Era has relevance for 2 reasons - it has bearing on estimates of his birth - it displays how important he is considered that the calendar is STILL "based" on him. But the shorter version now there is an improvement over the longer more detailed one, which content is now included below. I also made the AD-CE & BC-BCE transition - except where context demanded otherwise. I am sure we shall meet again & let's try to "presume" the best about each other then. Cheers, -- JimWae 01:53, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
Both Fish Supper and Slrubenstein have been blocked for 24 hours for their respective violations of the 3RR. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:36, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday I added a clause stating that the Talmud also mentions Jesus. Jayjg had a reasonable argument for deleting that clause, and I accepted his deletion. However, I have been doing more research and have now put the clause in. The fact is, there are at least some scholars who do believe that certain passages in the Talmud refer to the same Jesus who is the subject of this article. It is true that the Talmud was not committed to print until the sixth century, but it contains within it texts from the first and second centuries. Many of the passages that specifically referred to the Christian Jesus and Christianity were censored by the Church in the Middle Ages (or left out by Jewish printers who were afraid of Church censorship), which is why someone who has read the Talmud today would not find these passages. However, Talmud scholars -- I mean critical scholars, not rabbis -- have identified several earlier manuscripts that contain these passages. The passages in the Talmud come from the Tosefta, which originates in the second century -- in other words, not much older than Josephus and the Gospels. If we mention Josephus, who may not even have written the passages ascribed to him, we should at least mention the Talmud. I added a paranthetical to make clear that the Talmud passages in question should not be read as history. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- In support of Slrubenstein, I think his passage summarises the current position well. Although most scholars don't think there is a correspondance between Yeshu and Jesus, this remains an important minority position, and one that is more widespread outside academia. Therefore, I think it should be mentioned, if only to largely dismiss it. I think that the satement should be restored, with the addition of a link to the Yeshu article: "and in the Talmud (although most scholars do not view the relevant passages as historically accurate or as refering to Jesus; see Yeshu)." -- G Rutter 18:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, can you explain to me why you disagree? My sources are Daniel Boyarin, a Talmud professor at Berkeley, Shaye J.D. Cohen, professor of Hebrew Literature and Philosophy at Harvard University, and Jeffrey Rubenstein (no relation, I swear!), professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University. I am using works they have published within the last ten years; Rubenstein's book is 2002, so this reflects the most recent scholarship. These are three very well-regarded scholars at prestigious universities, so surely you can understand why I believe that the sentence concerning the Talmud should be in the article. You say that many Talmud scholars (and I assume you mean critical scholars) do not believe that the toseftas refer to Jesus. Can you tell me who you are referring to? Okay, you disagree with me, but can't you explain why? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:42, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Historicity section DOES need serious work - another revert war will accomplish nothing. The "acceptance" (as it appears) is a little too facile, but the part about "for ancient standards" (or whatever) is worth keeping. Many people accept his existence just as a presumption - finding it undecideable & not worth the time to argue over. The section also needs expanding -- JimWae 18:40, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
Rev of Bru, I seriously appreciate your kind remarks. But I ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt in understanding that when I make an edit I believe I am writing something that is accurate and that doesn't violate NPOV. If you disagree with me, please take the time to explain why before (or at the very least, immediately after!) you revert. Now, the matter on hand. I do not think that the distinction between secular and religious is always useful. I do understand why you would think so, but I know many religious people who do not believe that the Bible is literally true or describes events that actually ocurred. I also know atheists who don't really understand critical scholarship and make claims that really are tenuous at best, and often just wrong. When I say "critical scholar," I mean someone who assumes that texts, no matter what their claims, were written by people for people; and who uses the critical tools of comparative literature and history to interpret texts. Since I have done a fair amount of research in this matter I feel comfortable with my own judgement, but I know that is no reason for anyone to accept my judgement. So in this particular matter what I do is I ask historians and Bible critics in major (secular) universities what books they assign. I also look for books written by professors at prestigious universities, published by academic presses. I look for books written by people who publish in peer-reviewed academic journals, and whose works are cited by others who publish in peer-reviewed academic journals. And I have to say, several of the people you name fall short.
Now, I believe that the people I have read represent what scholars consider reliable scholarship: From Jesus to Christ by Paula Fredricksen, William Goodwin Aurelio Professor of Scripture, Boston University, and published by Yale University Press; The Historical Figure of Jesus by E.P. Sanders, professor of religion at Duke University, published by Penguin; Jesus the Jew: A Historian's Reading of the Gospels, by Geze Vermes, Emeritus Professor of Jewish Studies at Oxford and member of the British Acadamy; The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament by Bart Ehrman, Chair, Department of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, published by Oxford University Press — these are all critical scholars whose research is in no way dictated by religious dogma, who teach at major research universities in the US (except for Vermes, who teaches at a university in England that I have heard of, maybe it is a good school), and I am confident that if you asked anyone who has published on Jesus or the New Testament in peer-reviewed scholarly journals, they will agree that these are well-respected prominent scholars – all of these books accept the existence of Jesus even as they question the New Testament account of events, and orthodox Christian interpretations of the New Testament.
Now, as to the people you mention. Earl Doherty, though not trained in NT studies, is certainly a legitimate scholar and his argument is fascinating. But his argument does not require that Jesus never lived, it only claims that the Jesus in the NT was not the "real" Jesus that lived. No one would argue with his claim that Paul and perhaps John created a Jesus very different from the man who lived — which is actually precisely why I think critical studies of Jesus the man are so valuable. Timothy Freke has a BA in philosophy, and to my knowledge was never trained in critical history and hasn't published in peer-reviewed journals. Sorry, but not my idea of a real scholar. Peter Gandy at least has an MA in Classical Civilization, but as far as I am concerned there is no comparison between his credentials and scholarship and that of Sanders, Vermes, etc. Alvar Elegard is a real scholar, but if I understand him, he is claiming (like the scholars I rely on) that the NT reflects the views of Christians in the second century; this does not mean Jesus never existed. Robert M. Price is a very good scholar, but as far as I can tell he is agnostic concerning the existence of Jesus (not the same thing as definitively claiming that Jesus never existed). Frank R. Zindler is a biologist and geologist! He has no training in comparative literature, history, classics or the ancient Near East. Again, I don't see how there is any comparison between his scholarship and that of Sanders and Vermes. Tom Harper is a real scholar of early Christianity, although I do not think he has a PhD. But Rev, you make such a big deal about secular scholars and Harper is not secular!! He is an Anglican priest who taught at the Toronto School of Theology! G.A. Wells was a professor of German, never trained in Roman or Biblical history or literature or language. Credentials are not the only problem. He does not use the critical tools of historical scholarship, and in my book doesn't even rate. I know Marcello Craveri has written on the apocrypha, but I do not know what his credentials are. I do not know what Luigi Cascioli's credentials are either. I have read only a review of his book, but if it is accurate he uses the tools of a lawyer to prove that Jesus never existed. I have also heard lawyers claim that using their standards, God really did reveal ten commandments at Sinai, so I am sceptical of lawyers trying to do history. I prefer trained historians. Italo Libri is a lecturer of mechanical technology. He may be secular, but he is no scholar.
Look Rev of Bru, I know that there are scholars who do not believe Jesus existed and I have never deleted the claim that some do not believe he exists. But be reasonable: when someone asks you for a list of scholars, don't give us a mechanical engineer, a professor of German, and a geologist. If you insist on the article stating that "most secular scholars believe Jesus never existed," I will have to add "scholars of German, mechanical engineering, and geology." When I write "most accept the existence of Jesus" I am referring to prestigious critical scholars of Roman Palestine, the New Testament, or some other field that actually involves expert critical study of Jesus and the NT. I maintain that the scholars I listed are unquestionably among the top critical scholars of the New Testament or Biblical history. And they accept the existance of Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do not know if we are miscommunicating or what. Ian Wilson is not on my list and I am certain that I have never mentioned him. As for Einstein, he may have worked in a patent office, but he had a PhD. in physics and his articles on the photo-electric effect and Special Relativity wwere published in reputable journals and he recieved the Noble Prize. All of this is evidence of the recognition given to him by his peers in physics. Now, there is no Noble Prize Sanders, Fredricksen, Vermes and Bartman can win. But they clearly are well-regarded by other critical scholars of the NT and History. So your Einstein analogy supports my claim. I do not see how it supports your claim. Zindler, Wells, and Libri have no been recognized by experts in this field, so there is no comparison between their situation and Einstein's.
You have no evidence that the scholars I rely on had preconceived conclusions, and my reading of their works is that they do/did not have preconceived notions. When you say "Christian scholar" do you mean anyone who disagrees with you? I just do not see how this comment relates to the scholars I listed.
It is not enough for them to claim to be specialists. Most critical Bible scholars and historians went through rigorous training in critical theory and methods; the ones that I rely on have clearly established themselves among their peers. I am not dismissing Zindler, Wells, and Libri because they have other fields of knowledge. I am criticizing them because their work on this particular topic does not meet the standards of critical scholarship.
I do not understand your point here. If by "Christian scholar" you mean someone whose scholarship is based on assumptions that come from their religion, and is meant to serve their religion, I do not understand your point. The scholars on my list are not "Christian scholars" as I made crystal clear above. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:08, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
By the way, I know that your last edit was in the spirit of compromise and I appreciate that. I really do believe we can work out something that everyone will consider accurate. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re:
In the Alexander article we have very specific info, such as -- "In the afternoon of 323 BC June 10, Alexander died of a mysterious illness in the palace of Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon. He was only 33 years old." Also: somebody had to be the leader for a series of conquests
E.P Sanders may argue that -- but WHY should anyone listen to him? What doubts, if any, does he raise about Alexander?-- JimWae 08:48, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)
He's the only name mentioned - there's lots of "some historians", "many historians", "most historians", " a number of historians". More names need to be added. It seems extremely unreasonable to doubt Alexander's existence, but far from entirely unreasonable to doubt Jesus'. Is that the best example anyone can give? The Homer one seems more on a parallel -- JimWae 19:05, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)
You're getting the wrong idea about my intentions - when I have more time I will hunt down the Homerr-Hesiod source-- JimWae 19:28, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)
I have some doubts about this phrase in the historicity section, concerning people who take a purely naturalistic approach: "are particularly skeptical" about miracles and such. Maybe people who are inclined toward a naturalistic approach are skeptical, but I think that if we are talking about people who are purely naturalistic this phrase is hedging and I think should be phrased more strongly. I think people who take a purely naturalistic approach flat-out reject miracles and stuff. How about something like, "reject supernatural elements in the accounts, including the resurection" or something? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Which fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls refer to Jesus? Jayjg (talk) 20:55, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As a passing stranger, I reverted some recent edits by User:Rossnixon for the following reasons: 1) the "a" before "Jesus" when discussing Josephus is a sensible rider and 2) a statement that no serious historian doubts the existence of the Jesus is far too sweeping. It only takes one reader to adduce one historian who does doubt this to call into question the accuracy of this article and, by extention, the whole of Wikipedia. This kind of sweeping statement cannot be made without cast-iron referencing. Filiocht | Blarneyman 09:35, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
That was me. On consideration, I would concede point "2", as this was a historical quote from around 1972, which could easily be (or become) outdated. However, the statement accredited to Josephus obviously points to Jesus. ...Regarding the extra-biblical sources I have added, you will find most of them confirmed (with details) by looked at the articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Historicity and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_textual_evidence I will revert, and remove the sentence I concede to be potentially outdated. RossNixon 09:53, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was a silly mistake and when I realized what I had done I went to put it back but it looks like someone already has.
I fixed the following passage:
The problem with it is that it sounds redundant, because it is poorly organized. It contains three claims: (1) A number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived, (2)most religious and secular scholars presume his existence, (3) many find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone. Obviously the first and third claim go together -- people who seriously question Jesus' existence are also likely to find his existence undecidable by historical means alone. I do not want to delete content, so I will not delete one of these redundant claims. But it is poor organization to have a "jesus didn't exist" claim followed by a "jesus did exist" claim and them followed by a "Jesus didn't exist claim." This isn't a debate (or a tennis match) -- we just want to communicate different positions. So I put claims (1) and (3) together. Also, I deleted the following: "However, ancient historical and mythological figures are often portrayed only from references written centuries after their deaths." What is the point of this here? Maybe ancient historical and mythological figures are often portrayed after their deaths (or what they claim is the date of their deaths). So? All that matter here is Jesus. The fact that one person's death was not recorded until centuries later does not prove anything, one way or the other, concerning another persons' death. And if this is a point specifically made by a historian concerning Jesus, well, let's put it in the historicity section -- it is extraneous here. We have communicated two views: some believe he existed, some do not. A detailed catalogue of the reasons belongs in the body, not the introduction. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Rev of Bru, please read weasel words and you will see this article to be full of them: e.g. Many historians - how many (many implies a majority if no reference point is given).
AD and CE are different? I fail to see how. Leaving aside the arguments about usage, they are absolutely identical in their reckoning of years.
I changed skeptical to doubtful. These words are equivalent in the current context. However, skeptical is American English whereas doubtful is neutral. This was my reason for changing it. I'm reverting it to doubtful, but what was your reason for reverting to skeptical?
At one point I replaced undecideable, a very clumsy word that doesn't appear in most dictionaries (e.g. this one). I see it has also been reverted. Can we come up with something else please? Arcturus 22:13, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Skeptical, doubtful.. what might be better? Arcturus 22:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Rev of Bru, do you want to take this to mediation? You revert what I write, you refuse to explain why, and you refuse to respond to my explanations. This is inappropriate behavior. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:42, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is what I wrote: "Although most religious and secular scholars accept the existence of Jesus, a number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived and find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone." Now, please explain what "slanted, biased POV" is expressed in this sentence? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jim, I appreciate your desire to compromise, but I have the same problem with what you wrote as with the earlier version. There are two positions being represented here -- some think he didn't exist, some do. In the version you came up with, the second position was placed in the middle of the first position (in other words, the sentence opens by saying some don't think he existed, then saying some do, then saying some don't). I just think this is poor style. There are two positions. Express each of them -- once. I do not care in what order (in other words, I do not care if it says "Although most religious and secular scholars accept the existence of Jesus, a number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived and find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone." OR "A number of historians have seriously questioned whether Jesus ever really lived and find the question of his existence undecideable by historical means alone, although most religious and secular scholars accept the existence of Jesus." But represent one position, then the other -- not one position, then the other, then the first one again! Slrubenstein | Talk 22:03, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have no problem with the compromise version JimWae just came up with. I hope Rev of Bru feels the same way. Thanks, Jim. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Given these definitions, "accept" is clearly the more appropriate word. For you to insist on "presume" is simply an example of POV warrioring. You refuse to accept the fact that many scholars disagree with you. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC) Your POV is showing. There is no way that an honest scholar should believe in things without any evidence. Stop pushing your POV. List these scholars. I have requested that you do so on many occasions. I provided a list of several secular scholars who feel the evidence does not suggest a physical character. You have yet to name any secular scholars. You have the POV issue. The Rev of Bru
You are lying. Your list of "secular scholars" is mostly crap -- a German teacher, geologist, and mechanical engineer may be scholars of German, geology, and mechanical engineering, but they are not scholars of NT history. Moreover, I provided you with a list of the top NT scholars in the world. I explained that they are critical scholars, and I explained what a critical scholar is. My POV is this: if I want to know what scholars think, I look at scholars and see what they think. This is precisely the "POV" editors of an encyclopedia must have. Your POV on the other hand is this: you read books, and any book that supports your preconceived beliefs you call "scholarship," and any book that challenges your preconceived beliefs you dismiss. this is precisely not the POV that an encyclopedia should have. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:39, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
You have no evidence that Sanders, Fredriksen, Bartman, Vermes, or Crossan never questioned whether Jesus existed or not. Indeed, their books reveal that they have considered this question. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:46, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I have been thinking more about JimWae's compromise. Although initially I liked it, I now think that the phrase "no doubt" is inappropriate. We do not know for sure whether any of the major historians who accept Jesus' existence have no doubts. No doubts suggests a dogmatism I think historians universally eschew. Even historians who firmly believe that Jesus exist admit that it is possible that he didn't. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:14, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I was asked to comment on this yesterday; sorry for the delay. I know nothing about the specific topic, but regarding the issue of scholarship, this is an academic subject, and therefore the sources deemed authoritative for Wikipedia must be academic sources, by which I mean a person holding a relevant academic position in a recognized university, or someone who has held such a position for a significant period of time, and who is publishing on this topic in peer-reviewed journals or whose books on this topic have been published by an academic/university press. The issue of peer review is the crucial one. The distinction between religious and secular scholars is irrelevant, in my view: the point is to survey peer-reviewed academic opinion, regardless of the personal spiritual beliefs of the academics in question. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:46, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
I was the one who started "Jesus is not a Jew". After some reading and dialogue with other Christians, I've come to the conclusion that "Jews" throughout are not nearly as homogenous as I initially thought. When he said "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.... He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is you are not of God", was his attack exclusively directed at the Jews who lived by the Talmud? According to some interpretations I've read, this was because he saw in them a distortion of the Torah, and the supposedly-false idea of the Talmud that "the Chosen People" applied to Jews only?
Yes, it's been a while since I read those - harsh evidence. But then again, Jesus seems to have disagreed with the Pharisees/Talmudists on the (remaining) validness of these texts. Otherwise, why the "You are of your father the devil..."? --Threadstarter
1. Shimon bar Yona [Mt16:17] or Shimon bar Yochanan [Jn1:42] 2. Yaqov son of Zebedee and his brother: 3. Yochanan (together called Boanerges the Thunder Brothers) 4. Andreas brother of Shimon, disciple of John the Baptist [Jn1:35,40] 5. Philippos from Bathesda 6. Bartholomaios 7. Maththaios, a tax collector 8. Toma (the twin) 9. James son of Alpheus 10. Thaddaios [Mk3:18,Mt10:3 majority] 11. Judas son of James [Lk6:16,Ac1:13] or Judas not Skariotes [Jn14:22] 12. Lebbeus [Mk3:18,Mt10:3 v.l.] 13. Shimon the Zealot [Lk6:15] 14. Judas Skariotes (the assassin)
John 17:3. Father is the one true God; Jesus is the one sent by God, the Messiah
Jesus didn't claim to be God; The Gospels don't claim Jesus is God; The Letters of Paul don't claim Jesus is God. It's a later proclamation of the Church of Rome, its source is the gnostics who where the first to claim that Jesus was God and the first to invent the extra-biblical concept of the Trinity
User:Arcturus objects to use use of Common Era
Arcturus has characterized his reverting of my use of Common Era as "reverting vandalism & minor edits" [2]. This is either total misunderstanding of Common Era, or an attempt to disguise his changes
I introduced Common Era on April 19 after discussion on this page (copied between lines below)
- ... Now, if you want to propose changing all dates to CE/BCE, I have no objection, indeed, I would strongly support that. But if there is a consensus to use the conventional AD/BC, then we should follow that convention. I see no point to adding a discussion of BC/CE in the introduction. As I said, if you want to change all dates to BCE/CE I don't object but youshould see what other people think, first. As for your other comments, some are reasonable and I will try to make changes, in the spirit of compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- How about now? Why do you think it is better to have a discussion of CE dating system in the introdcution? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The dating system is the Anno Domini system, NOT the CE system! What is the problem with stating Anno Domini system (correctly)?
If dating system is irrelevant, fine, but if not, its the Anno Domini system, not the CE.
- Hey, I am just replying to JimWae. But the argument against AD is that it violates our NPOV policy. Many editors and readers of Wikipedia do not consider Jesus to be their "lord." To use AD is to imply that according to Wikipedia Jesus really was/is the Lord -- a Christian POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't intend to do any editing of this article, but I'd like to say that it's POV and inappropriate to use BC/AD, because as Slrubenstein says, it implies that Jesus really was someone by whom dates ought to be set, whereas the Wikipedia article should only describe who says what about him, but should not take a side; using BC/AD not only takes a side, but does so in an implicit, almost structural way. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:55, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting using the AD dating system in the article, I am saying that the dating system which used the date arbitrarily assigned to Jesus' birth is the AD system. I agree that using the CE system for dates is preferable. The Rev of Bru
On April 25 this was surreptitiously changed by an anonymous editor who also added clear proselytizations - which were later deleted, but not the AD/CE change until I redid that recently
CE & AD are not equivalent (as Arcturus has said in his edits) -- they may be the same in extension (semantics), but not in intension. JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
The Jesus article is NOT an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus in as NPOV as possible. There are already numerous POV articles on Jesus: Christian views of Jesus, Religious perspectives on Jesus, New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christianity and who knows how many other near-duplications. There is, it turns out, also a Jewish view of Jesus, but not yet an Atheist views of Jesus, Mormon view of Jesus, Unitarian views of Jesus :)
Why would use of Common Era be an insult to the followers of "that religion" - unless it offends them that not everyone worships Jesus as Lord? Consider how those (the majority) who do not take Jesus as "the Lord" must consider seeing Anno Domini every time they see a reference to the calendar.
Notice AD & BC are used when discussing the Anno Domini system developed by Dionysius Exiguus. It is particularly important in the Jesus article, perhaps more than in any other, to use Common Era to avoid the appearance of POV endorsement that Jesus is Lord.
To reiterate: The Jesus article is not an article about Christianity, it is an article about Jesus done as neutrally as possible.-- JimWae 02:28, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article. Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC– AD 1 or 1 BCE– 1 CE.
Arcturus is being churlish. Although he defends BC and AD, he has not real criticism of BCE and CE. In any event, several people have agreed that BC and CE is more appropriate. Five people against one certainly is good reason to make a change. But even if there were no discussion, the change is fully justified because AD violates our NPOV policy. Earlier, Arcturtus wrote "if you can show me anywhere in the Wikipedia style guidelines that state AD notation is POV then I'll stop using it right now!" which is either woefully ignorant or disingenuous. Wikipedia has article on Naziism, Race, the Holocauts, Fascism -- and in each of these articles NPOV has been an issue at one point or another. An encyclopedia as expansive and inclusive as Wikipedia cannot have a specific policy on every specific phrase that comes up in Wikipedia. It is absurd to think that our NPOV policy has to catelogue all conceivable violations of NPOV. No, a policy is general so it can be applied to a variety of cases. AD reflects the views of a particular group, therefore it is POV, period. AD means Anno Domini means Our Lord means Jesus is our Lord. There are many people who do not consider Jesus their lord, do not use the terms BC and AD, and object to using BC and AD in secular works. Of course I fully understand why Christian works would use BC and AD. Earlier Arcturus claims that an article about Christianity should use AD — another patently absurd claim. First, this is not an article about Christianity, it is an article of Jesus, a character (real or fictional) of interest to Christians, Muslims, Jews, as well as secular/critical historians. Second, even if this were the article on Christianity (i.e., Christianity) I would argue that we should use NPOV terms like BCE and CE. Surely, you do not think that in the article on Hitler, we should take Hitler's point of view? Similarly, an article on Christianity should not take a Christian point of view — it should provide as many various views as are important, in an NPOV way. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:15, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Arcturus, first: stop ignoring the discussion on this page. Second: stop reverting when you are in the minority. See if you can change the minds of others. Also, familiarize yourself with our NPOV policy, as you keep violating it. Finally, do not claim I have provided no explanation when I have provided considerable explanation. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:20, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude, This is not about JimWae's individual point of view. JimWae, Jayjg, SlimVirgin, Rev of Bru, and I all agree that BCE/CE is better. Even if you agree with Arcturus, you are still in a minority. But this is not just about numbers, this is about reasons. I provided a lengthy explanation above, and you have not even responded to it. Please explain how calling 2005 or any other date "the year of our Lord" is neutral? As for Gene Nygaard, the "burden of proof" has been met, through the explanations provided by myself, JimWae, Jayjg, Slim Virgin, and Rev of Bru. Here you simply assert your own opinion. Don't use a "burden of proof" argument to excuse your own ignorance or laziness — if you have good reasons for using AD, and a response to my explanation above, provide it. If you do not, your case is weak. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:06, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Slrubenstein - You and others may favor BCE/CE, but there are also persons who disagree with you and wikipedia's consensus policies oblige you to at minimum take that fact into consideration. One could also reasonably contest your characterization of the other position being in the minority when the entire history of changes to this article is taken into consideration. Just glancing over the last week or so I see at least four different editors who have attempted to restore part or all of the original BC/AD designation. Each time they have been reverted by one of only two people: you or JimWae. You are indeed correct that this is about reasons though, and as I have noted, none of the reasons given thus far rise to a sufficient level to merit your change. Why? Because your reasons all revolve around your belief that BCE/CE is more "neutral" than BC/AD, yet this finding is in conflict with Wikipedia's style guide that explicitly says "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable" so long as the same one is used throughout the article. IOW, this issue has already been decided elsewhere for wikipedia in general and that decision did not give any advantage or favor to one over the other. That you, JimWae, and a handful of others believe favor should be given to BCE/CE over BC/AD, thus justifying your proposed change, is in conflict with the remainder of wikipedia, which deems that no such preference should be given to one over the other. That fact deprives you of the dominant justification for your change, and since changes that are made without any legitimate reason are automatically subject to scrutiny, that defaults us back to the original use that existed in this article from its creation: BC/AD. Also, please be mindful of making an excessive number of reversions in 24 hours, Slrubenstein. I have made the limit and will not revert beyond that until after the proper time expires. You, OTOH, have made no less than four reversions between 17:00 and 20:00 today alone. You're currently in excess of wikipedia's reveresion policy, so I suggest that you cease and desist for the time being. Rangerdude 20:01, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Notice I have listed this debate on the Wikipedia:Requests for Comment page. Summary of Debate (read this entire section for details):
Definitely use BCE. It's what historians use. -- goethean 19:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Dude, if as you say the policy allows either AD or CE, then you have no ground to stand on. Essentially, If Wikipedia policy accepts both, then there is no strict policy. Put another way, the policy supports JimWae and the rest of us at least as much as it supports you. That means that this dispute has to be decided on other grounds than Wikipedia's style guide. JimWae, I, and others have explained our reasons. You still have none. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:38, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
RK - It is our job to educate readers on factual information by facilitating their use through a format that is friendly and readable. It is NOT our job to encourage readers to adopt a less common dating system that a small fraction of WP editors believe to be superior to the standard one for whatever reasons you or anybody else may think. If we use BC/AD there's little doubt that 99.9% of readers who come along will comprehend exactly what it means. When they see the date 12 BC they know that it means 12 years before the year 1, which is traditionally considered the year of Christ's birth. The same cannot be said about the BCE/CE system, which is hardly even known of outside of scholarly circles, and even there its use is a modern phenomenon that's still in the minority. If they have to click on a link to figure out what "CE" means it distracts and detracts away from the ease with which the present article is understood. Seeing as wikipedia is official neutral over which of the two is appropriate, seeing as the original article used BC/AD, and seeing as this system is substantially more familiar to wikipedia's target audience, the concept of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. Right now I have seen little to no compelling reason exists to merit a change, and only blatant POV renderings aimed not at justifying BCE/CE per se but rather passing judgement in favor of its precedence over BC/AD, which as I noted conflicts with wikipedia's official neutrality on the two. Rangerdude 22:07, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Here is just one of the many google searches which shows a huge number of hits in favour of BC. 3000 BC 3000 BCE-- Silversmith 22:19, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
You guys are going over old ground. See Dechristenization Movement and the New Calender Nobs 22:43, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Mel - Actually, no. You didn't give us any better estimate of dating systems in your first comment. You simply asserted your position to be so and dismissed all others. Quod gratis asseritur, buddy. As for English speaking countries, their use of the English language is about as broad a measure as one can get for determining the most commonly used dating system in the English language for an encyclopedia written in English. If you're so keen on other dating systems, make your edits as appropriate on the Jesus article here Rangerdude 22:58, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
[4] [5] And, looking on Italian google, searching only pages in Italian, you get thousands more for BC than BCE. 3000 BC 3000 BCE Also, as for books not internet, here are just a few I have looked at: Glass, 5,000 years - Hugh Tait. Glass Source Book - Jo Marshall. The Splendor of Ethnic Jewelry - France Borel. Quotes:
I've yet to see any proof that BCE/CE is more common. -- Silversmith 23:28, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I pulled some books off my shelf to see which dating system is commonly used by scholars and historians who have written on the topic of Jesus. Geza Vermes, not a Christian, uses BC/AD. N.T. Wright, who is a Christian, also uses BC/AD, however, he has expressed that some editors of his books have required him to use BCE/CE and that he did not feel it was a big deal to do so. Personally, I prefer BCE/CE in most cases, as it sounds more neutral to my nonChristian ears. However, since both dating systems are acceptable to Wikipedia, and scholars do in fact use both, if any article is going to use BC/AD, this one on Jesus is probably the most appropriate place to use it. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 03:24, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
There are several problems with your arguments, Jim.
This is the exact same kind of nonsensical hairsplitting you attempted over on the articles pertaining to secession, Jim, not to mention the Morrill Tariff before that. In both cases you came along, saw something that evidently did not mesh well with your personal POV, and then attempted to expunge it by claiming that whatever you didn't like was not NPOV itself. In both cases, as with this one, your standard for NPOV was not one of wikipedia's policies on how articles should be written, but rather your own personal opinion. You didn't like the way that historians portrayed the Morrill Tariff, so you responded by trying to alter their views to suit your own opinion. You didn't like how the dictionary defined the word secession, so you responded by trying to change the definition to suit your own opinion. Now you don't like that wikipedia tolerates the traditional BC/AD date system, so you respond by trying to cast it as non-neutral even though wikipedia's policy finds nothing wrong with its use and gives no deferrence to the alternative you propose in its place. Wikipedia is not your personal playpen to bog down with JimWae's "opinion of the week" whatever it may be. If you want to make edits around here you need to grow up and start making constructive edits instead of the POV-driven censorship that characterizes your posting patterns. Rangerdude 07:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
My 2c. I've never liked "Common era". Who has it in common with whom? Whatever we call the years, they're dated from the presumed birth of Jesus. I'm an atheist and I don't give a fig about AD meaning "anno domini". It's just a pair of letters. I don't see any great need to replace them, and I don't like the fabrication of a "common era" to do so. It does have some currency though, so it has to be considered. The stuff about offending the nonChristian is utter bollocks. You'd need a very thin skin to get offended at that! I don't see anyone agitating for dates to be given in other calendars.
But that's just my opinion. Had I seen it on the page when I came to it, I certainly wouldn't change it. My view is we should go with whichever was used first. There's precedent for that on Wikipedia and I think it's a good way to resolve what is otherwise an intractable argument. I'm not going to go back and look but my small voice is added to the clamour for whichever it was. Grace Note 04:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
-that's your opinion & you are of course entitled to it. It is not, however, about being offended; it is about being forced to accept (swallow) "Jesus is Lord" when there is a more neutral alternative.-- JimWae 05:05, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
No, it is purposely an attempt to be non-Christian, not anti-Christian - to not include acceptance of Jesus as Lord in the calendar. It's acceptable to have the years be based on the faulty reckoning (for want of a better, non-disruptive system) -- but that's quite enough. It is not acceptable (to me and to many anyway) to have to also (for all time) accept surreptitiously that Jesus is Lord. Do you not care about the attempts of some others to make a few improvements in the world? Are you content to also let all manner of cultural biases be permanently entrenched?-- JimWae 05:48, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
Morning Star & Evening Star have the same extension (semantics), but not the same intension. Ethnic & sexual slurs and more neutral terms also ... Humanity makes some rogress when this is realized and changes are made. Note the objections above that Common Era is more of that PC stuff - as though being "PC" were immediately an argument about eternal worthlessness -- JimWae 06:01, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
If it is true that Common Era is not understood outside America, then your argument is with wikipedia manual of style, not me. Btw, I am "outside America" myself. And AGAIN it is not about being offended, it is about insensitivity & could care-less-ness -- JimWae 06:36, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
The method of dating using Anno Domini is not, Western, Christian or Eurocentric; it is currently commonly used globally by all cultures and civilizations, Islamic, Sinic, Japanese, Hindu, etc. The United Nations, for example, all UN Resolutions are dated using Anno Domini calender, as do all UN NGO's conduct business as such. Jesus, what a sterile debate. Nobs 06:52, 9 May 2005 (UTC)