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(Moved from article to talk page by Dick Clark 18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC))
De Soto effectively critiques Monetarist and Keynesian theories as different aspects of the same sophism in Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles beginning on page 509. Subjectivist Revolution writers such as Bohm Bawerk are cited with page number specificity and I spent more time, so far, reading the works cited - than his works. De Soto's work appears to be worthy and sound: worth many weeks of perusal. I seem to have passed over much the material he cites in silence and with a lack of understanding. He brought it to life and gave it meaning not found originally by me. Thanks to De Soto, that error is being corrected.
My ignorance admitted and being corrected, it was a pleasure to become the owner of such a fine work. Here here! Nice reading.
18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Granted Huerta has a great book, but not much is known of him to warrant an entry here at the moment unless someone is willing to provide a list of some of his papers plus some of the unique ideologies he stands for.
For example his book, Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles advocates for free markets over central banks or other government controlled monetary institutions. His advocacy for free imigration and the ethics of capitalism also need to be mentioned.
18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I have added the first ISBN to enable easy location of vendors for his book(s). (Click on the ISBN if you have not tried this before.)
At the moment, Amazon has the ISBN wrong in their database for the English translation of Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles, but I have notified them of their error. With a little luck, they will have fixed it by the time anyone attempts the link. -- RayBirks 16:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
FYI, I have just added Seńor de Soto's name to the de Soto disambiguation page. -- RayBirks 15:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm hoping this link will work [1] to show de Soto has a listing of 41 items in WorldCat. 17 Spanish, 9 English, 4 Polish, 3 German, 2 French, 2 Italian, 1 Dutch, 1 Russian. While many of these are overlapping items, the list serves to show he has an international audience. OCLC 800522200 gives us a journal, but I couldnt say what sort of item this is. I think it is the title of the series that he produced. I do have 2 magazine hits: I'll post them in the article. – S. Rich ( talk) 00:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
No mention of Mount Pelerin at Otros page, aka "failed verification" -- maybe it was on a different page or link? If so back it goes. 21:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC) SPECIFICO talk 21:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I think we can safely remove the references tag from the article, but don't want to run up against WP:3rr so just adding material now. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Goes to this content: "In a tribute to Murray N. Rothbard, Soto described the influence the economist had on his thinking and his personal relationship with Rothbard over many years.[8]"
If that essay is significant, could an editor who is familiar with it please summarize some substantive content to replace the empty mention currently in the article. As it stands, it leaves one asking why this was mentioned, rather than any of Soto's many other essays and articles? SPECIFICO talk 20:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
There's a lot of weird language in this article, as if maybe Google Translate was used instead of figuring out the English equivalents. For example, was Soto presented with a chair as a graduation present from Grad School when he joined whatever University? Did he get what English speakers call a Law Degree one year after his MBA? Is he another Mitt Romney double threat? The article needs to be intelligible to English Speakers, maybe even to Americans as well. As it stands, I can't tell whether this guy is an actual academic or a talk-circuit pundit who lectures at the local vocational school. SPECIFICO talk 01:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Maybe when one is hired for a first teaching job at a Spanish college, they give you a chair for your office. Here in the US, they can be purchased at most college bookstores, for example here [2]. I hope some editor will further research the Spanish tradition and practice of giving chairs to junior college faculty. SPECIFICO talk 16:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
That's what Jesus calls his employer in the Mises.org source. I suggest we follow that. Srich, any objection to undoing your recent change? SPECIFICO talk 17:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Please furnish the quote and page number from the source that supports Jesus holding that view. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 02:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Turns out that various books google searches do keep coming back to that topic, even when I search other topics and his name, and you are correct, SRich (much to my dissappointment). Considering he is an anarcho-capitalist (yes, ref'd info exists), I wonder if he actually wants the private protection agencies to shut down fractional reserve banking entities for fraud? Oh, yuck. Anyway, here's some fun ref's you all can play with, from more general to banking issue:
Well that's my fun to share for now. If have time today, I will enter actual new info on another topic with lots of refs. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 18:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I looked around and Education and Career sections tend to be more typical for many bios than the more creative ones in this article. They are more flexible, as well. I think it's interesting that Hayek recommended him for Stanford and he hung out with Rothbard there, per one of his Mises interviews, and that could be stuck in the education section. But not tonight by me.
Also, I don't think economics should have sections unless some one topic his so overwhelmingly his focus that seems obvious and necessary. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 05:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
This listing was mentioned before. I cleaned out book chapters and anything published by the company he's affiliated and got down to this. Anybody know if these are significantly "prestigious" and/or peer-reviewed journals to be mentioned in the articles list? Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 19:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Review 6, no. 2 (Winter, 1998–1989): 10.
School,” Journal des Économistes et des Études Humaines 8, no. 1 (March 1998): 75–113.
and the School of Salamanca,” Review of Austrian Economics 9, no. 2 (1996): 59–81.
4 (University of Pavia, Italy, 1995): 583–98.
Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics 1, no. 4 (Winter, 1998): 25–49.
Annals of the Congreso Internacional de Fondos de Pensiones (Madrid, April 1984), pp. 458–68; reprint, Chapter 23 in J. Huerta de Soto, Estudios de economía política (Madrid: Unión Editorial, 1994), pp. 285–94.
The biblio section is excessive. It's approaching the length of Arnold Toynbee's. Many lines are devoted to translations or at least one to a minor note in a periodical. This should be pared to significant works in the original. I'm unfamiliar with these works, and I am not able to make the cut. SPECIFICO talk 01:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
The AfD indicates that the community believes de Soto should stay. However, if he does stay, this article needs major cleaning up. For one, nothing here is written about de Soto's theoretical or empirical contributions to economics; since he's described as an economist rather than a political activist, I think these contributions -- rather than ideological views (about "fractional reserve banking" being "fraud" etc) that any John or Jane off the street could assert -- should be the main point of this article. Steeletrap ( talk) 13:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
At this diff, User:SPECIFICO removed Huerta de Soto has worked as Spanish editor of the collected works of Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek (which obviously were not in the right order, but that's easily fixable), and replaced it with Huerta de Soto was administrative editor of the Spanish language edition of works by Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek SPECIFICO also writes he verified footnotes and proofread the Spanish text
"Administrative editor" and that description obviously is deprecating WP:OR since the English translation of the reference ( Jesús Huerta de Soto website, see Curriculum Vitae, Labor Editorial; section includes information on the Compete Works of F.A. Hayek, pp. 1-2;) reads:
CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 23:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
To give the unabridged text (my humble translation) from Soto's web page:
Editor of the Spanish edition: Jesus Huerta de Soto The work of the editor of the Spanish edition is to coordinate and manage the entire collection, specifically to engage translators, proofread the text, realize the pagination of the footnotes for the Spanish text, and write forewords and prefatory notes to the volumes in the Series. [1]
_______
SPECIFICO talk 20:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Commissioned? We are not talking about an aircraft carrier here.
It means, he was hired to do it.
Per BLP please find a
WP:RS discussion of his role. Software translations are rather primitive.
Also, it's difficult to parse text that has been refactored after other editors have replied. Please review policy.
SPECIFICO
talk
01:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
There is no need to speculate about this. A secondary WP:RS is required for anything other than Soto's own opinions. SPECIFICO talk 03:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
WTF is the "Misean strain"!? Think about the readers -- without more they will have no idea what this means? And just because LvMI publishes someone's work, does that create some vague "identification" with?? – S. Rich ( talk) 06:10, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I see the citation in the article, but I cannot find any mention of Soto, "rendering" "editing" or similar assertions there. Please provide a more specific link or quote the relevant statement on the U Chicago Press website that supports the assertion in the article text. SPECIFICO talk 18:12, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Because this paragraph was entirely sourced to primary sources and included OR and SYNTH I have reduced it to a simple statement of what is in the cv. There are many unknown facts and circumstances relating to this, including the circumstances that led to the limitation of the project to only a few volumes, the extent of Soto's role, and other issues. Per BLP and other policies we will need to find a secondary RS discussion of the Spanish Hayek project in order to include more than a simple mention in the article text. If none can be found, we should consider removing this mention from the text since it merely duplicates information more suitable to the bibliography. SPECIFICO talk 13:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a BLP violation, and it is a serious matter. A secondary RS is required, or policy dictates the material must be removed. Editor assumptions one way or another violate BLP. This policy is the overriding test. SPECIFICO talk 14:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Please review this: [3] Personal statements are acceptable sources for opinions not facts. And editors interpretations as to what facts are supported by a primary document such as Chicago catalog listing are not RS. It's time to take a step back and conform to policy. Remember the first go-round with this had the article preposterously inferring that de Soto was the translator of Hayek's complete works. Among other things, we should find a source to determine why the Spanish edition appears to have been cancelled after only a few volumes. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Yea please file an ANI that I posted a message to Srich, but meanwhile, no personal attacks and no mischaracterizing other editors words or actions on article talk or anywhere else. Acabado. SPECIFICO talk 22:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Considering that the mentions of Mises and Rothbard come way before they can be see way down in the info box, and many people don't read info boxes anyway, it seems a bit odd that at this diff removes both. This is an informational encyclopedia, not an email to a list filled with Austrian economists or libertarians who know who these people are. I don't want to be appear to be in an edit war, so I'd appreciate it if someone else can correct that so I don't have to ask elsewheres. Meanwhile, lets leave the "clarification" tag which was for information that ws corrected, since now we need to clarify for readers who this Mises and Rothbard are. :-) Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 03:08, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Excessive quotation template? I can't remember who put it on. Also, expansion isn't really necessary now, is it? I think it's ok to remove both. Not a perfect section, but better than was. Thanks CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
I've always seen full uses of his name as Jesús Huerta de Soto. Partial uses I've seen as Huerta de Soto and de Soto. Anyone want to investigate "Reliable sources" (not our personal opinions) about that? Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 16:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
The propoer way to use the name is Huerta de Soto, I know because I'm Spanish and I have studied with him in class. " User:Anarcocapitalista austriaco —Preceding undated comment added 09:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Best to omit competing views that do not address specific remarks by de Soto. Perhaps can add "See also" section or "Further" hatnote. – S. Rich ( talk) 03:41, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
While it may seem tempting to add countering views on economic theories or subjects based on WP:BALANCE, I don't think this is the proper guideline. We have some of his views set forth so that the reader can get an idea of what de Soto thinks. If there are countering sources that specifically address his views, then adding them would have more pertinence. But adding views that do not address what de Soto said specifically, does not help the reader. Would we add the theories about stagflation and the Depression from all the various schools of thought just to show that de Soto was wrong? No. Those are debates for the specific theory subject articles. Compare: he may prefer red-wine because his family operates a winery and he extolls the health virtues of red wine, etc. We would not include material that says white wine (or beer or Johnny Walker Black) is superior. (Please note that I have retitled the section re-titled as it is not specific to Krugman.) – S. Rich ( talk) 23:45, 12 June 2013 (UTC)00:06, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
[Cut & pasted from my talk page. – S. Rich ( talk) 03:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Per WP:TAGGING it would be helpful if you would explain which text in the sentence "Chicago School economist Milton Friedman, whose positivist methodology was antithetical to the Austrian approach, foretold the 1970s stagflation in his 1967 Presidential Address to the American Economic Association" constitutes Original Research. It's all stated in the cited references. SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I asked you to identify the OR. Please do so or remove the tag. Another editor tagged "failed verification" which is false, but irrelevant to the current issue. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 03:10, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
SPECIFICO, the issue is SYN. If Johnson's article (whether or not a stub) had a refutation of flat earth nonsense, it would be inappropriate because his article is a biography and not a debate or explanation about flat earthness. It looks like you want to say "de Soto was wrong because Milton said this...." Well, the parallel you draw is "Johnson is wrong." And I can prove it "because Milton said this...." – S. Rich ( talk) 04:27, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Added comment -- please note that my comment was made before certain changes were inserted immediately above. I am addressing SPECIFICO, and no other editor in this remark.05:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Jesus_Huerta_de_Soto_WP:OR.2FSynth Since SPECIFICO does not seem interested in a serious discussion of the issue. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 18:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I actually searched for a better source for his views and have included his actual views from primary source, which is his 2008 talk at London's Institute of Economic Affairs published later by Economic Affairs. ( Sneak a peak here.) Did low quality secondary source writing "only" regarding 1970s staglation as well as 1929 get it wrong? Probably. Certainly his own talks/writings a better source. Anyway, it makes the WP:OR/Synth of adding Friedman just look even more silly. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 01:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
At this diff the correction. First, Skousen might actually be relevant a) because Huerta de Soto helped him with the first edition and is in the acknowledgements and b) because HDS in his 2004 article in Journal for the New Europe, 2004, Jesús Huerta de Soto refs Skousen writing: 21. See Mark Skousen, "Who Predicted the 1929 Crash?", included in The Meaning of Ludwig von Mises, Jeffrey M. Herbener (ed.), Kluwer Academic Publishers, Amsterdam, 1993, pp. 247-284. Lionel Robbins, in his "Introduction" to the first edition of F.A. Hayek's Prices and Production (Routledge, London, 1931, p. xii), also referred to this prediction made by Mises and Hayek of the inexorable advent of the Great Depression, which had appeared expressly in an article by Hayek which was published in 1929 in Monatsberichte des Österreichischen Instituts für Konjunk turforschung.
Of course, the whole section is an out of order mess right now. (Not to mention removal of irrelevant and argumentative Friedman comment which two editors oppose. Imagine if we went through all of Friedman explaining how Keynes and Marx had different opinions on this, that or the other, neither of whom obviously mentioned Friedman. Silliness.) Will work on later. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Specifico put in at this diff more material not about Huerta de Soto: Skousen quotes Austrian economist Fritz Machlup as saying that Mises had been prophesying the failure of Kreditanstalt nearly every Wednesday afternoon since 1924. I know he'd just revert it if I removed it so I'll give someone else the honor. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 01:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
At this diff] I finally got around to remove Skousen WP:OR above, plus the even more irrelevant statement appended to the quote from two academics about Huerta de Soto's writing on the School of Salamanca (per "Quote from two nobodies" section below).
I feel like User:SPECIFICO is just trying to aggravate other editors here.
CarolMooreDC -
talk to me🗽
23:28, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me folks. I stated a valid reason for us to trim that vacuous quote from nobody in particular. You are both edit warring to reinsert without addressing my clearly articulated concern on talk before restoring the text. Frankly it makes Soto look foolish if we cannot find a more credible or better known expert to attest to Soto's stature. Which of you honorable editors will remove the text while we discuss? I'm have an idea, but I won't say which one I guess will do the right thing. SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
If this book is to be cited we need a reason as to why the opinion of a graduate student and an unknown academic are worthy of mention in the article. If a recognized or notable or expert or influential person had made the statement, that would clearly be worthy of inclusion. There are billions of people in the world, and millions of authors and we don't just quote whichever one is handy. This article needs more significant figures evaluations of de Soto. The mention of this book should be removed. It gives the impression, to HdeS' detriment, that no more suitable references can be found. SPECIFICO talk 02:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Academic_book_for_statement_about_author. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 12:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
First, the fractional reserve section needs a neutral description of his views. I was lazy and put in that plus Searchrest's analysis in a short version, figuring people can go to the easily available article to read the long version. But User:SPECIFICO, given his uncontrollable POV against all the "Bad Guy" Austrian economists, goes all overboard to quote the nastiest comments he can find ad nauseum to the point of WP:Undue.
The solution is to find a more neutral description of his views and then do a separate shorter mention just of Sechrest's criticisms. Thus another tag til we fix the problem. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
At this diff User:Specifico removed this information leaving an edit summary failing to mention he did so:
This of course leaves only his unbalanced and massive section from Sechrest. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 16:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm very skeptical of the former characterization. It depends I guess on how we define "economist." If we mean someone who holds a position teaching economics at an accredited university and/or someone who has a graduate degree in economics, Jesus clearly fits the bill. But if we mean someone who contributes to substantive (i.e. scientifically respectable, replicable, empirical, and peer-reviewed) economic research, Jesus is no more an economist than the Hon. Doc Ron Paul.
Jesus strikes me as a man with virtually no interest in or experience with academic economics. Jesus's aim seems to be using his credential as a professor to buttress his political opinions in favor of "full reserve banking", the gold standard, Ron Paul for President, and the like; that stuff, and not academic economists, seems to be what he really cares about. Jesus's ostensible credential as an "economist" is simply a useful tool to make his political opinions on the economy appear less extreme/preposterous/erroneous than they otherwise would. Steeletrap ( talk) 06:01, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
The concern that Steeletrap raises in terms of article improvement is legitimate. To reframe the question, in editing this article is it proper to classify de Soto as an economist, scholar, writer, pundit, or what? I don't think WP has a category of or for pundts. So, as de Soto has a professorship in economics I think we must leave him classified as an economist. – S. Rich ( talk) 15:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Just to clarify WP rules for Carol: having opinions on subjects doesn't constitute "bias" in the relevant sense; you have to let those opinions motivate you to make edits that deviate from WP standard. She says I did the latter, but all of her formal charges alleging this have been spurned by "neutral" editors uninvolved in these libertarian squabbles.
In terms of Jesus, citing some of his actual (empirical/sceitnfiic) contributions to economics, as opposed to citing eccentric economic opinions that the guy at Tony's pub could tell me, would go a long way to alleviating my concerns. Steeletrap ( talk) 15:55, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
The test is WP policy, not article text. SPECIFICO talk 20:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Making a factual assertion -- i.e. stating that Friedman predicted the stagflation of the 1970s -- without explicitly drawing an inference related to Soto's reasoning is not synthesis or original research. I certainly agree that the fact that Friedman said this implies that Soto's assertion was erroneous, but as long as this isn't explicitly stated in the text, it isn't synthesis. This is a simple matter of logic. Asserting proposition A and proposition B, so long as each proposition is well-sourced by RS, isn't synthesis even if B may imply A is false; it only becomes synthesis if the connection B--> ~A (or in this case, that Friedman's statement means Soto was wrong) is explicitly drawn. Steeletrap ( talk) 14:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Srich old friend, I didn't make it up... LK
[6] was the one who prompted carolmooredc's journey around the noticeboards on this question. There's now a clear consensus for inclusion, even if we still count carolmooredc who has said she is no longer on board for BLPs or Austrians. It boils to you one one side and the rest of the editors involved and uninvolved, on the other. At this point, it feels like a dead horse to me. Let's get Friedman wrapped up and move on to other things?
SPECIFICO
talk
18:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
What's significant and worthy of inclusion in an article describing Soto and his thought and activities is the fact that he's made this statement in several prominent venues including ones, such as the LSE address that he knew would be published and disseminated far and wide. The statement itself is also remarkable in that most economists of any stripe would be very careful when using the word "predict" in all but a technical statistical sense, in which case the properties of the prediction are clearly stated. But even among economists, who generally do not traffic in "predictions" in the sense of de Soto, what is more remarkable is that Austrian school economists disdain and even ridicule the practice of economic prediction. At any rate, the discussion comes down to a solid consensus in favor of inclusion at this point, so I think it's appropriate to reinsert the full text and move on to the next improvement here. SPECIFICO talk 17:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Srich, there's been a discussion underway here for more than a month on this. There's at least one thread on ORN and, I forget where else, was it BLP. Only you and the departed carolmooredc have opposed this. Many editors, including uninvolved editors at ORN have favored leaving the Friedman bit in place. An RfC here, like the ones at Rothbard and Hoppe, feels like beating a dead horse. Please consider just moving on at this point. Thanks. The most valuable way to improve the article at this juncture is to find secondary RS discussion of de Soto, not to snuff out context-providing undisputed facts to balance the excessive primary and walled-garden sourcing. SPECIFICO talk 22:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Please review the Noticeboard discussions including salient comments from uninvolved editors. There's nothing further to discuss that hasn't already been aired and the consensus does not share your view. SPECIFICO talk 23:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
This August 1, 2013 BLPN finally brought some editors to the issue who agreed that the material was WP:OR and one removed it. Can we stop adding such argumentative material? Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 17:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Seeing the edit summary "Removing fringe source (from coworker) for controversial claim per WP:NPOV; WP:FRINGE; and WP:BLP)" I figured, same old biased edit. Looking at it [clarification later: it being the assertion that Hulsman said "the first Misesian treatise on money and banking to appear since the publication of Mises' original work 88 years ago"] more now, I think that if there first had been a tag like "verification and needed" and a question like, "Is Hulsman correct when he says this?" Or "what is the name of the article and how come I can't find a copy on the internet to verify he actually said this?" I might take it more seriously. But frankly I don't have the energy to track it down myself. User:Carolmooredc 02:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict) When we see in the RS that Hulsman wrote or said something, we are satisfying the WP:V requirement. "Is Hulsmann correct..." is a different type of question. That is, is Hulsman correct about this being the first book in 88 years to have been written on the subject? That sort of factual assertion, e.g., the truth of the assertion, is subject to a different sort of "factual verification". If another source said something different, factually, then we'd have to weigh the quality of the source. But each source, if we were able to access it, would be verified in the technical, WP sense. – S. Rich ( talk) 02:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Huerta de Soto lives in Spain. I doubt American Yeager does. Feel free to source your assertion they have donuts in the morning. Otherwise it is a false statement in an edit summary as an excuse to remove WP:RS material and very serious, especially in an article that is part of community sanctions. I will add more reception material besides two now there.
CM-DC
talk
16:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
RE: Jean-Claude Trichet quote. see
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Book_cover_quote. The arguments from the regular deleters are too predictable so might as well get an outside opinion.
CM-DC
talk
18:33, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Are these noteworthy events or academic honors? There are tens of thousands of institutions that grant these academic trinkets every year. Do they matter? Are they noteworthy? Can we use these primary source citations for honorary degrees from these institutions? In what way are such awards significant and worth mention in an encyclopedia? Do we see them mentioned in conventional encyclopedia articles about de Soto? SPECIFICO talk 04:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This article has equivalents in 18 other languages. That alone does not make it notable, but it's a bit of a supporter. Tátótát ( talk) 00:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
The Editor of the Spanish edition was discussed on the talk page previously here and here. After discussion the version which remained for a couple months was:
This was truncated to remove the notability factors sometime after that and of course the "may not meet Wikipedia's general notability guideline" tag later inserted. As it happens, at WP:RSN User:Itsmejudith wrote "It seems to me that editing the Spanish translation of Hayek does meet the notability requirement for an economist, so that needs to go into the lead. The source can be the Hayek books themselves."
The current refs support the earlier versions:
References
The key to BRD is the D, not the R, Carol. This edit is not very productive. The material removed really ought to have been removed because it consists entirely of LvMI mutual appreciation, which is not encyclopedic. We already know that LvMI members love each other and are willing to say wonderful things about each other. It does not add value to this article.
Now, if Carol had opened a discussion, I would have allowed her edit to remain until the discussion ended. Since she didn't bother with the D, I'm not going to take her R as a legitimate part of the BRD process. Instead, I'm overturning it. MilesMoney ( talk) 22:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Thus re-adding the two sources in question and leaving out North. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 15:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
(Moved from article to talk page by Dick Clark 18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC))
De Soto effectively critiques Monetarist and Keynesian theories as different aspects of the same sophism in Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles beginning on page 509. Subjectivist Revolution writers such as Bohm Bawerk are cited with page number specificity and I spent more time, so far, reading the works cited - than his works. De Soto's work appears to be worthy and sound: worth many weeks of perusal. I seem to have passed over much the material he cites in silence and with a lack of understanding. He brought it to life and gave it meaning not found originally by me. Thanks to De Soto, that error is being corrected.
My ignorance admitted and being corrected, it was a pleasure to become the owner of such a fine work. Here here! Nice reading.
18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Granted Huerta has a great book, but not much is known of him to warrant an entry here at the moment unless someone is willing to provide a list of some of his papers plus some of the unique ideologies he stands for.
For example his book, Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles advocates for free markets over central banks or other government controlled monetary institutions. His advocacy for free imigration and the ethics of capitalism also need to be mentioned.
18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I have added the first ISBN to enable easy location of vendors for his book(s). (Click on the ISBN if you have not tried this before.)
At the moment, Amazon has the ISBN wrong in their database for the English translation of Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles, but I have notified them of their error. With a little luck, they will have fixed it by the time anyone attempts the link. -- RayBirks 16:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
FYI, I have just added Seńor de Soto's name to the de Soto disambiguation page. -- RayBirks 15:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm hoping this link will work [1] to show de Soto has a listing of 41 items in WorldCat. 17 Spanish, 9 English, 4 Polish, 3 German, 2 French, 2 Italian, 1 Dutch, 1 Russian. While many of these are overlapping items, the list serves to show he has an international audience. OCLC 800522200 gives us a journal, but I couldnt say what sort of item this is. I think it is the title of the series that he produced. I do have 2 magazine hits: I'll post them in the article. – S. Rich ( talk) 00:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
No mention of Mount Pelerin at Otros page, aka "failed verification" -- maybe it was on a different page or link? If so back it goes. 21:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC) SPECIFICO talk 21:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I think we can safely remove the references tag from the article, but don't want to run up against WP:3rr so just adding material now. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Goes to this content: "In a tribute to Murray N. Rothbard, Soto described the influence the economist had on his thinking and his personal relationship with Rothbard over many years.[8]"
If that essay is significant, could an editor who is familiar with it please summarize some substantive content to replace the empty mention currently in the article. As it stands, it leaves one asking why this was mentioned, rather than any of Soto's many other essays and articles? SPECIFICO talk 20:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
There's a lot of weird language in this article, as if maybe Google Translate was used instead of figuring out the English equivalents. For example, was Soto presented with a chair as a graduation present from Grad School when he joined whatever University? Did he get what English speakers call a Law Degree one year after his MBA? Is he another Mitt Romney double threat? The article needs to be intelligible to English Speakers, maybe even to Americans as well. As it stands, I can't tell whether this guy is an actual academic or a talk-circuit pundit who lectures at the local vocational school. SPECIFICO talk 01:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Maybe when one is hired for a first teaching job at a Spanish college, they give you a chair for your office. Here in the US, they can be purchased at most college bookstores, for example here [2]. I hope some editor will further research the Spanish tradition and practice of giving chairs to junior college faculty. SPECIFICO talk 16:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
That's what Jesus calls his employer in the Mises.org source. I suggest we follow that. Srich, any objection to undoing your recent change? SPECIFICO talk 17:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Please furnish the quote and page number from the source that supports Jesus holding that view. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 02:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Turns out that various books google searches do keep coming back to that topic, even when I search other topics and his name, and you are correct, SRich (much to my dissappointment). Considering he is an anarcho-capitalist (yes, ref'd info exists), I wonder if he actually wants the private protection agencies to shut down fractional reserve banking entities for fraud? Oh, yuck. Anyway, here's some fun ref's you all can play with, from more general to banking issue:
Well that's my fun to share for now. If have time today, I will enter actual new info on another topic with lots of refs. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 18:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I looked around and Education and Career sections tend to be more typical for many bios than the more creative ones in this article. They are more flexible, as well. I think it's interesting that Hayek recommended him for Stanford and he hung out with Rothbard there, per one of his Mises interviews, and that could be stuck in the education section. But not tonight by me.
Also, I don't think economics should have sections unless some one topic his so overwhelmingly his focus that seems obvious and necessary. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 05:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
This listing was mentioned before. I cleaned out book chapters and anything published by the company he's affiliated and got down to this. Anybody know if these are significantly "prestigious" and/or peer-reviewed journals to be mentioned in the articles list? Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 19:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Review 6, no. 2 (Winter, 1998–1989): 10.
School,” Journal des Économistes et des Études Humaines 8, no. 1 (March 1998): 75–113.
and the School of Salamanca,” Review of Austrian Economics 9, no. 2 (1996): 59–81.
4 (University of Pavia, Italy, 1995): 583–98.
Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics 1, no. 4 (Winter, 1998): 25–49.
Annals of the Congreso Internacional de Fondos de Pensiones (Madrid, April 1984), pp. 458–68; reprint, Chapter 23 in J. Huerta de Soto, Estudios de economía política (Madrid: Unión Editorial, 1994), pp. 285–94.
The biblio section is excessive. It's approaching the length of Arnold Toynbee's. Many lines are devoted to translations or at least one to a minor note in a periodical. This should be pared to significant works in the original. I'm unfamiliar with these works, and I am not able to make the cut. SPECIFICO talk 01:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
The AfD indicates that the community believes de Soto should stay. However, if he does stay, this article needs major cleaning up. For one, nothing here is written about de Soto's theoretical or empirical contributions to economics; since he's described as an economist rather than a political activist, I think these contributions -- rather than ideological views (about "fractional reserve banking" being "fraud" etc) that any John or Jane off the street could assert -- should be the main point of this article. Steeletrap ( talk) 13:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
At this diff, User:SPECIFICO removed Huerta de Soto has worked as Spanish editor of the collected works of Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek (which obviously were not in the right order, but that's easily fixable), and replaced it with Huerta de Soto was administrative editor of the Spanish language edition of works by Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek SPECIFICO also writes he verified footnotes and proofread the Spanish text
"Administrative editor" and that description obviously is deprecating WP:OR since the English translation of the reference ( Jesús Huerta de Soto website, see Curriculum Vitae, Labor Editorial; section includes information on the Compete Works of F.A. Hayek, pp. 1-2;) reads:
CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 23:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
To give the unabridged text (my humble translation) from Soto's web page:
Editor of the Spanish edition: Jesus Huerta de Soto The work of the editor of the Spanish edition is to coordinate and manage the entire collection, specifically to engage translators, proofread the text, realize the pagination of the footnotes for the Spanish text, and write forewords and prefatory notes to the volumes in the Series. [1]
_______
SPECIFICO talk 20:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Commissioned? We are not talking about an aircraft carrier here.
It means, he was hired to do it.
Per BLP please find a
WP:RS discussion of his role. Software translations are rather primitive.
Also, it's difficult to parse text that has been refactored after other editors have replied. Please review policy.
SPECIFICO
talk
01:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
There is no need to speculate about this. A secondary WP:RS is required for anything other than Soto's own opinions. SPECIFICO talk 03:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
WTF is the "Misean strain"!? Think about the readers -- without more they will have no idea what this means? And just because LvMI publishes someone's work, does that create some vague "identification" with?? – S. Rich ( talk) 06:10, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I see the citation in the article, but I cannot find any mention of Soto, "rendering" "editing" or similar assertions there. Please provide a more specific link or quote the relevant statement on the U Chicago Press website that supports the assertion in the article text. SPECIFICO talk 18:12, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Because this paragraph was entirely sourced to primary sources and included OR and SYNTH I have reduced it to a simple statement of what is in the cv. There are many unknown facts and circumstances relating to this, including the circumstances that led to the limitation of the project to only a few volumes, the extent of Soto's role, and other issues. Per BLP and other policies we will need to find a secondary RS discussion of the Spanish Hayek project in order to include more than a simple mention in the article text. If none can be found, we should consider removing this mention from the text since it merely duplicates information more suitable to the bibliography. SPECIFICO talk 13:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a BLP violation, and it is a serious matter. A secondary RS is required, or policy dictates the material must be removed. Editor assumptions one way or another violate BLP. This policy is the overriding test. SPECIFICO talk 14:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Please review this: [3] Personal statements are acceptable sources for opinions not facts. And editors interpretations as to what facts are supported by a primary document such as Chicago catalog listing are not RS. It's time to take a step back and conform to policy. Remember the first go-round with this had the article preposterously inferring that de Soto was the translator of Hayek's complete works. Among other things, we should find a source to determine why the Spanish edition appears to have been cancelled after only a few volumes. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Yea please file an ANI that I posted a message to Srich, but meanwhile, no personal attacks and no mischaracterizing other editors words or actions on article talk or anywhere else. Acabado. SPECIFICO talk 22:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Considering that the mentions of Mises and Rothbard come way before they can be see way down in the info box, and many people don't read info boxes anyway, it seems a bit odd that at this diff removes both. This is an informational encyclopedia, not an email to a list filled with Austrian economists or libertarians who know who these people are. I don't want to be appear to be in an edit war, so I'd appreciate it if someone else can correct that so I don't have to ask elsewheres. Meanwhile, lets leave the "clarification" tag which was for information that ws corrected, since now we need to clarify for readers who this Mises and Rothbard are. :-) Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 03:08, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Excessive quotation template? I can't remember who put it on. Also, expansion isn't really necessary now, is it? I think it's ok to remove both. Not a perfect section, but better than was. Thanks CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
I've always seen full uses of his name as Jesús Huerta de Soto. Partial uses I've seen as Huerta de Soto and de Soto. Anyone want to investigate "Reliable sources" (not our personal opinions) about that? Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 16:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
The propoer way to use the name is Huerta de Soto, I know because I'm Spanish and I have studied with him in class. " User:Anarcocapitalista austriaco —Preceding undated comment added 09:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Best to omit competing views that do not address specific remarks by de Soto. Perhaps can add "See also" section or "Further" hatnote. – S. Rich ( talk) 03:41, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
While it may seem tempting to add countering views on economic theories or subjects based on WP:BALANCE, I don't think this is the proper guideline. We have some of his views set forth so that the reader can get an idea of what de Soto thinks. If there are countering sources that specifically address his views, then adding them would have more pertinence. But adding views that do not address what de Soto said specifically, does not help the reader. Would we add the theories about stagflation and the Depression from all the various schools of thought just to show that de Soto was wrong? No. Those are debates for the specific theory subject articles. Compare: he may prefer red-wine because his family operates a winery and he extolls the health virtues of red wine, etc. We would not include material that says white wine (or beer or Johnny Walker Black) is superior. (Please note that I have retitled the section re-titled as it is not specific to Krugman.) – S. Rich ( talk) 23:45, 12 June 2013 (UTC)00:06, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
[Cut & pasted from my talk page. – S. Rich ( talk) 03:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Per WP:TAGGING it would be helpful if you would explain which text in the sentence "Chicago School economist Milton Friedman, whose positivist methodology was antithetical to the Austrian approach, foretold the 1970s stagflation in his 1967 Presidential Address to the American Economic Association" constitutes Original Research. It's all stated in the cited references. SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I asked you to identify the OR. Please do so or remove the tag. Another editor tagged "failed verification" which is false, but irrelevant to the current issue. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 03:10, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
SPECIFICO, the issue is SYN. If Johnson's article (whether or not a stub) had a refutation of flat earth nonsense, it would be inappropriate because his article is a biography and not a debate or explanation about flat earthness. It looks like you want to say "de Soto was wrong because Milton said this...." Well, the parallel you draw is "Johnson is wrong." And I can prove it "because Milton said this...." – S. Rich ( talk) 04:27, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Added comment -- please note that my comment was made before certain changes were inserted immediately above. I am addressing SPECIFICO, and no other editor in this remark.05:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Jesus_Huerta_de_Soto_WP:OR.2FSynth Since SPECIFICO does not seem interested in a serious discussion of the issue. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 18:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I actually searched for a better source for his views and have included his actual views from primary source, which is his 2008 talk at London's Institute of Economic Affairs published later by Economic Affairs. ( Sneak a peak here.) Did low quality secondary source writing "only" regarding 1970s staglation as well as 1929 get it wrong? Probably. Certainly his own talks/writings a better source. Anyway, it makes the WP:OR/Synth of adding Friedman just look even more silly. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 01:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
At this diff the correction. First, Skousen might actually be relevant a) because Huerta de Soto helped him with the first edition and is in the acknowledgements and b) because HDS in his 2004 article in Journal for the New Europe, 2004, Jesús Huerta de Soto refs Skousen writing: 21. See Mark Skousen, "Who Predicted the 1929 Crash?", included in The Meaning of Ludwig von Mises, Jeffrey M. Herbener (ed.), Kluwer Academic Publishers, Amsterdam, 1993, pp. 247-284. Lionel Robbins, in his "Introduction" to the first edition of F.A. Hayek's Prices and Production (Routledge, London, 1931, p. xii), also referred to this prediction made by Mises and Hayek of the inexorable advent of the Great Depression, which had appeared expressly in an article by Hayek which was published in 1929 in Monatsberichte des Österreichischen Instituts für Konjunk turforschung.
Of course, the whole section is an out of order mess right now. (Not to mention removal of irrelevant and argumentative Friedman comment which two editors oppose. Imagine if we went through all of Friedman explaining how Keynes and Marx had different opinions on this, that or the other, neither of whom obviously mentioned Friedman. Silliness.) Will work on later. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Specifico put in at this diff more material not about Huerta de Soto: Skousen quotes Austrian economist Fritz Machlup as saying that Mises had been prophesying the failure of Kreditanstalt nearly every Wednesday afternoon since 1924. I know he'd just revert it if I removed it so I'll give someone else the honor. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 01:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
At this diff] I finally got around to remove Skousen WP:OR above, plus the even more irrelevant statement appended to the quote from two academics about Huerta de Soto's writing on the School of Salamanca (per "Quote from two nobodies" section below).
I feel like User:SPECIFICO is just trying to aggravate other editors here.
CarolMooreDC -
talk to me🗽
23:28, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me folks. I stated a valid reason for us to trim that vacuous quote from nobody in particular. You are both edit warring to reinsert without addressing my clearly articulated concern on talk before restoring the text. Frankly it makes Soto look foolish if we cannot find a more credible or better known expert to attest to Soto's stature. Which of you honorable editors will remove the text while we discuss? I'm have an idea, but I won't say which one I guess will do the right thing. SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
If this book is to be cited we need a reason as to why the opinion of a graduate student and an unknown academic are worthy of mention in the article. If a recognized or notable or expert or influential person had made the statement, that would clearly be worthy of inclusion. There are billions of people in the world, and millions of authors and we don't just quote whichever one is handy. This article needs more significant figures evaluations of de Soto. The mention of this book should be removed. It gives the impression, to HdeS' detriment, that no more suitable references can be found. SPECIFICO talk 02:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Academic_book_for_statement_about_author. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 12:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
First, the fractional reserve section needs a neutral description of his views. I was lazy and put in that plus Searchrest's analysis in a short version, figuring people can go to the easily available article to read the long version. But User:SPECIFICO, given his uncontrollable POV against all the "Bad Guy" Austrian economists, goes all overboard to quote the nastiest comments he can find ad nauseum to the point of WP:Undue.
The solution is to find a more neutral description of his views and then do a separate shorter mention just of Sechrest's criticisms. Thus another tag til we fix the problem. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
At this diff User:Specifico removed this information leaving an edit summary failing to mention he did so:
This of course leaves only his unbalanced and massive section from Sechrest. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 16:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm very skeptical of the former characterization. It depends I guess on how we define "economist." If we mean someone who holds a position teaching economics at an accredited university and/or someone who has a graduate degree in economics, Jesus clearly fits the bill. But if we mean someone who contributes to substantive (i.e. scientifically respectable, replicable, empirical, and peer-reviewed) economic research, Jesus is no more an economist than the Hon. Doc Ron Paul.
Jesus strikes me as a man with virtually no interest in or experience with academic economics. Jesus's aim seems to be using his credential as a professor to buttress his political opinions in favor of "full reserve banking", the gold standard, Ron Paul for President, and the like; that stuff, and not academic economists, seems to be what he really cares about. Jesus's ostensible credential as an "economist" is simply a useful tool to make his political opinions on the economy appear less extreme/preposterous/erroneous than they otherwise would. Steeletrap ( talk) 06:01, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
The concern that Steeletrap raises in terms of article improvement is legitimate. To reframe the question, in editing this article is it proper to classify de Soto as an economist, scholar, writer, pundit, or what? I don't think WP has a category of or for pundts. So, as de Soto has a professorship in economics I think we must leave him classified as an economist. – S. Rich ( talk) 15:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Just to clarify WP rules for Carol: having opinions on subjects doesn't constitute "bias" in the relevant sense; you have to let those opinions motivate you to make edits that deviate from WP standard. She says I did the latter, but all of her formal charges alleging this have been spurned by "neutral" editors uninvolved in these libertarian squabbles.
In terms of Jesus, citing some of his actual (empirical/sceitnfiic) contributions to economics, as opposed to citing eccentric economic opinions that the guy at Tony's pub could tell me, would go a long way to alleviating my concerns. Steeletrap ( talk) 15:55, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
The test is WP policy, not article text. SPECIFICO talk 20:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Making a factual assertion -- i.e. stating that Friedman predicted the stagflation of the 1970s -- without explicitly drawing an inference related to Soto's reasoning is not synthesis or original research. I certainly agree that the fact that Friedman said this implies that Soto's assertion was erroneous, but as long as this isn't explicitly stated in the text, it isn't synthesis. This is a simple matter of logic. Asserting proposition A and proposition B, so long as each proposition is well-sourced by RS, isn't synthesis even if B may imply A is false; it only becomes synthesis if the connection B--> ~A (or in this case, that Friedman's statement means Soto was wrong) is explicitly drawn. Steeletrap ( talk) 14:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Srich old friend, I didn't make it up... LK
[6] was the one who prompted carolmooredc's journey around the noticeboards on this question. There's now a clear consensus for inclusion, even if we still count carolmooredc who has said she is no longer on board for BLPs or Austrians. It boils to you one one side and the rest of the editors involved and uninvolved, on the other. At this point, it feels like a dead horse to me. Let's get Friedman wrapped up and move on to other things?
SPECIFICO
talk
18:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
What's significant and worthy of inclusion in an article describing Soto and his thought and activities is the fact that he's made this statement in several prominent venues including ones, such as the LSE address that he knew would be published and disseminated far and wide. The statement itself is also remarkable in that most economists of any stripe would be very careful when using the word "predict" in all but a technical statistical sense, in which case the properties of the prediction are clearly stated. But even among economists, who generally do not traffic in "predictions" in the sense of de Soto, what is more remarkable is that Austrian school economists disdain and even ridicule the practice of economic prediction. At any rate, the discussion comes down to a solid consensus in favor of inclusion at this point, so I think it's appropriate to reinsert the full text and move on to the next improvement here. SPECIFICO talk 17:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Srich, there's been a discussion underway here for more than a month on this. There's at least one thread on ORN and, I forget where else, was it BLP. Only you and the departed carolmooredc have opposed this. Many editors, including uninvolved editors at ORN have favored leaving the Friedman bit in place. An RfC here, like the ones at Rothbard and Hoppe, feels like beating a dead horse. Please consider just moving on at this point. Thanks. The most valuable way to improve the article at this juncture is to find secondary RS discussion of de Soto, not to snuff out context-providing undisputed facts to balance the excessive primary and walled-garden sourcing. SPECIFICO talk 22:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Please review the Noticeboard discussions including salient comments from uninvolved editors. There's nothing further to discuss that hasn't already been aired and the consensus does not share your view. SPECIFICO talk 23:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
This August 1, 2013 BLPN finally brought some editors to the issue who agreed that the material was WP:OR and one removed it. Can we stop adding such argumentative material? Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 17:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Seeing the edit summary "Removing fringe source (from coworker) for controversial claim per WP:NPOV; WP:FRINGE; and WP:BLP)" I figured, same old biased edit. Looking at it [clarification later: it being the assertion that Hulsman said "the first Misesian treatise on money and banking to appear since the publication of Mises' original work 88 years ago"] more now, I think that if there first had been a tag like "verification and needed" and a question like, "Is Hulsman correct when he says this?" Or "what is the name of the article and how come I can't find a copy on the internet to verify he actually said this?" I might take it more seriously. But frankly I don't have the energy to track it down myself. User:Carolmooredc 02:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict) When we see in the RS that Hulsman wrote or said something, we are satisfying the WP:V requirement. "Is Hulsmann correct..." is a different type of question. That is, is Hulsman correct about this being the first book in 88 years to have been written on the subject? That sort of factual assertion, e.g., the truth of the assertion, is subject to a different sort of "factual verification". If another source said something different, factually, then we'd have to weigh the quality of the source. But each source, if we were able to access it, would be verified in the technical, WP sense. – S. Rich ( talk) 02:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Huerta de Soto lives in Spain. I doubt American Yeager does. Feel free to source your assertion they have donuts in the morning. Otherwise it is a false statement in an edit summary as an excuse to remove WP:RS material and very serious, especially in an article that is part of community sanctions. I will add more reception material besides two now there.
CM-DC
talk
16:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
RE: Jean-Claude Trichet quote. see
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Book_cover_quote. The arguments from the regular deleters are too predictable so might as well get an outside opinion.
CM-DC
talk
18:33, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Are these noteworthy events or academic honors? There are tens of thousands of institutions that grant these academic trinkets every year. Do they matter? Are they noteworthy? Can we use these primary source citations for honorary degrees from these institutions? In what way are such awards significant and worth mention in an encyclopedia? Do we see them mentioned in conventional encyclopedia articles about de Soto? SPECIFICO talk 04:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This article has equivalents in 18 other languages. That alone does not make it notable, but it's a bit of a supporter. Tátótát ( talk) 00:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
The Editor of the Spanish edition was discussed on the talk page previously here and here. After discussion the version which remained for a couple months was:
This was truncated to remove the notability factors sometime after that and of course the "may not meet Wikipedia's general notability guideline" tag later inserted. As it happens, at WP:RSN User:Itsmejudith wrote "It seems to me that editing the Spanish translation of Hayek does meet the notability requirement for an economist, so that needs to go into the lead. The source can be the Hayek books themselves."
The current refs support the earlier versions:
References
The key to BRD is the D, not the R, Carol. This edit is not very productive. The material removed really ought to have been removed because it consists entirely of LvMI mutual appreciation, which is not encyclopedic. We already know that LvMI members love each other and are willing to say wonderful things about each other. It does not add value to this article.
Now, if Carol had opened a discussion, I would have allowed her edit to remain until the discussion ended. Since she didn't bother with the D, I'm not going to take her R as a legitimate part of the BRD process. Instead, I'm overturning it. MilesMoney ( talk) 22:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Thus re-adding the two sources in question and leaving out North. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 15:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)