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Are Referenced Credible Sources on Jenny's Vaccination Views and Impacts "Fancruft"?
I recently attempted to add the following to the article:
In July 2013 the Huffington Post published an article entitled "Jenny McCarthy's Got The Wrong View On Vaccinations", which reported that:
The content above was repeatedly deleted because the deleting users labeled it "fancruft". For the uninitiated, "fancruft" is a term sometimes used in Wikipedia to imply that a selection of content is of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans of the subject in question.
Now, I'm not the smartest person in the world by any means, but even I know that vaccinations and vaccination policy is hardly "fancruft". Nor are McCarthy's views on the matter. One of the deleters made a crack about "HuffPo", which I can only guess reveals some kind of political agenda on the part of the deleter and therefore wholly inappropriate for wikipedia. That deleter also wrote an admonishment that "This BLP article has extra scrutiny". I think that was an incoherent attempt to refer to wikipedia's policy regarding article on living people.
So what does wikipedia require of such articles? Per wikipedia, "Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies:
1) Neutral point of view (NPOV) 2) Verifiability (V) 3) No original research (NOR)"
Lets look at each of these points, in reverse order for discussion purposes.
"No original research": I merely ask that the reference to a published piece from a mass media source and a quote from it be added to the article. Nothing original. Check.
"Verifiability": per Wikipedia, this means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Further, wikipedia says : "Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process"
The source I tried to add is a piece published by the Huffington Post, and the byline is from a professional blogger by the name of Rachel Lincoln Sarnoff. So before I added any content to this wiki article, I investigated it for compliance with wiki policies. What did I find? A piece that was heavily linked and sourced. Where the piece covered the same data points already existing in this article, they stated the same things and even cited the same or similar sources.
But the key reason I wanted to add the piece to this wiki article is its information on the number of preventable illnesses and deaths that had been caused by a lack of vaccinations. So, following wikipedia guidelines, I checked her sources. The Huffington Post piece sited a website that had calculated the body count of preventable illnesses and deaths. So I went to that website. What were its sources? Its sources are the weekly "Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports" put out be the Centers for disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Every count is linked back to such a report. Don't believe me and unwilling to check? Then try http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Preventable_Deaths.html. Verifiability? check.
"Neutral Point of View": This is key. According to wikipedia, this means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." I heartily agree with this criteria, which is why I added the Huffington Post piece to this article. Where else in the wiki article is a reference to the CDC views on illnesses and deaths caused that were preventable had vaccinations occurred as recommended? Where? Should we just assume that McCarthy's vaccination views are without consequence to public health? If so, I humbly but forcefully ask that people take the time and effort I have to find material that meets the 3 criteria above to assert that McCarthy's and those that share her views on vaccinations have NOT had an impact on preventable illnesses and deaths.
Adding the Huffington Post article is also a common sense move. If vaccinations are as successful as claimed in wikipedia articles, then isn't the avoidance of vaccinations something that will lead to the illnesses and deaths that vaccines prevent? But the wrong way to go about that is to censure this article and suppress information that meets wikipedia's standards.
Lastly, I note that the McCarthy wiki article currently contains McCarthy's assertion that she was never against vaccinations etc in the October 2013 interview (that ironically was probably done in whole or part because of the fallout from the widely-read Huffington Post piece in July that I'm trying to add). That's a classic "moving the goalposts" fallacy among other travesties. But that's only apparent if the article and history itself retains documentation and knowledge of her many years in fighting child vaccinations. We can slowly or quickly scrub this article and perhaps history itself of her high profile efforts in fighting vaccinations so that only her denial of doing so is the only remaining record, but why would we voluntarily do that? Why? And why here of all places?
In short, we should fight censorship, bias and protection by fans and allow the Huffington Post article reference and quote into the wiki article. Specifically because this is a living person, we need to be especially vigilant in keeping this neutral. Alternatively, since the key is the CDC data to the piece I want to add, people need to provide a great deal of information refuting CDC statistics on vaccinations that is not original research, is neutral, and is verifiable. A few smug, refuted comments in the comment section of deleting content doesn't cut it per wikipedia standards.
What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.100.23.77 ( talk • contribs)
>I also note silence on the previous repeated assertions of "fancruft" that led to this discussion. What happened? You can continue to move the goalposts, but you can't bend reality, objectivity and wikipedia's policies to implement a personal agenda that is blatantly in opposition to wiki principles. EvergreenFir, if not also others, is obviously biased - on June 28 I attempted to discuss this topic on the talk pages before adding anything to the article - but she deleted my talk page entry quickly by stating in part "Please stop using talk pages such as Talk:Jenny McCarthy for general discussion of the topic. They are for discussion related to improving the article...". Yet on July 9, EvergreenFir deletes the sourced article with the admonishment "Please discuss on the talk page". The very topic under discussion is apparently objectionable to EvergreenFir, and is rather obviously working backwards to justify a strong position taken before ever actually reading any of the article in question or considering any of its sources - in short, EvergreenFir made up his/her mind before applying wiki policies to the actual content. Keep that in mind when making up yours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.100.23.77 ( talk)
Please sign your posts @ 98.100.23.77: please sign all of your posts when you make them, and copy over the original sig with time/date stamp if you must break someone else's comment into sections. Thank you. 71.234.215.133 ( talk) 18:47, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Post close note: I have reverted the protection back to what it was prior to the RfC (pending changes), per Dougweller's closure, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the material added with the sourcing provided will be permitted. As such, any repeated addition of the content can be considered in violation of the biographies of living persons policy, and may result in a block. -- kelapstick( bainuu) 14:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
This article is pro-vaccine biased and should be rewritten along the lines of neutrality, since this is supposed to be an article about the actress, not about vaccines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merryme.bd ( talk • contribs)
Powerslide recently re-added info about McCarthy's quote saying she went to the University of Google. The two sources given were not the best, but I found two others that seem better to me: People and Forbes. That said, I cannot find anything about the claim that she dropped out of college (which was originally cited with the non-reliable source with IMDB).
Question is whether or not it should be included in the article. Without info on previous education, I think just adding the "University of Google" part would be WP:UNDUE. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 20:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
-> User: Xenophrenic classified it as vandalism and used that as his reason for removal. It is certainly not vandalism. It is well-cited. Anyone can certainly go watch that Oprah episode. Jenny McCarthy claimed that her credentials for giving anti-vax advice is through her self-education and mommy instinct. Powerslide ( talk)
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@ JoBrodie:@ AngusWOOF: I can't help but wonder if this is a WP:BLP violation. [1] Do we actually have reliable sources that label this article's topic as "autism quack" The word "quack" seems particularly unencyclopedic. Do reliable sources actually use this term when describing Jenny McCarthy? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 12:26, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Why do you have extensive quotes from vaccine proponents but never once do you list MDs, PhDs, or other researchers who agree with her opinion on vaccine harm? Why do you not cite the Zimmerman quote and testimony that clearly links vaccines to some cases of autism? I thought Wiki was objective but this is so slanted it reads like a NYT article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.112.125 ( talk) 04:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
here's the study you are looking for proof: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30395948 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.100.154.230 ( talk) 04:15, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Humans aren’t rats or monkeys either, yet we regularly use animal studies to evaluate something’s effect on a human. CMTBard ( talk) 14:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree, this page is ridiculously biased as seen by the immediate removal of even the smallest effort to keep the page in accurate, scientifically honest terms. CMTBard ( talk) 14:28, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Are Referenced Credible Sources on Jenny's Vaccination Views and Impacts "Fancruft"?
I recently attempted to add the following to the article:
In July 2013 the Huffington Post published an article entitled "Jenny McCarthy's Got The Wrong View On Vaccinations", which reported that:
The content above was repeatedly deleted because the deleting users labeled it "fancruft". For the uninitiated, "fancruft" is a term sometimes used in Wikipedia to imply that a selection of content is of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans of the subject in question.
Now, I'm not the smartest person in the world by any means, but even I know that vaccinations and vaccination policy is hardly "fancruft". Nor are McCarthy's views on the matter. One of the deleters made a crack about "HuffPo", which I can only guess reveals some kind of political agenda on the part of the deleter and therefore wholly inappropriate for wikipedia. That deleter also wrote an admonishment that "This BLP article has extra scrutiny". I think that was an incoherent attempt to refer to wikipedia's policy regarding article on living people.
So what does wikipedia require of such articles? Per wikipedia, "Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies:
1) Neutral point of view (NPOV) 2) Verifiability (V) 3) No original research (NOR)"
Lets look at each of these points, in reverse order for discussion purposes.
"No original research": I merely ask that the reference to a published piece from a mass media source and a quote from it be added to the article. Nothing original. Check.
"Verifiability": per Wikipedia, this means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Further, wikipedia says : "Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process"
The source I tried to add is a piece published by the Huffington Post, and the byline is from a professional blogger by the name of Rachel Lincoln Sarnoff. So before I added any content to this wiki article, I investigated it for compliance with wiki policies. What did I find? A piece that was heavily linked and sourced. Where the piece covered the same data points already existing in this article, they stated the same things and even cited the same or similar sources.
But the key reason I wanted to add the piece to this wiki article is its information on the number of preventable illnesses and deaths that had been caused by a lack of vaccinations. So, following wikipedia guidelines, I checked her sources. The Huffington Post piece sited a website that had calculated the body count of preventable illnesses and deaths. So I went to that website. What were its sources? Its sources are the weekly "Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports" put out be the Centers for disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Every count is linked back to such a report. Don't believe me and unwilling to check? Then try http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Preventable_Deaths.html. Verifiability? check.
"Neutral Point of View": This is key. According to wikipedia, this means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." I heartily agree with this criteria, which is why I added the Huffington Post piece to this article. Where else in the wiki article is a reference to the CDC views on illnesses and deaths caused that were preventable had vaccinations occurred as recommended? Where? Should we just assume that McCarthy's vaccination views are without consequence to public health? If so, I humbly but forcefully ask that people take the time and effort I have to find material that meets the 3 criteria above to assert that McCarthy's and those that share her views on vaccinations have NOT had an impact on preventable illnesses and deaths.
Adding the Huffington Post article is also a common sense move. If vaccinations are as successful as claimed in wikipedia articles, then isn't the avoidance of vaccinations something that will lead to the illnesses and deaths that vaccines prevent? But the wrong way to go about that is to censure this article and suppress information that meets wikipedia's standards.
Lastly, I note that the McCarthy wiki article currently contains McCarthy's assertion that she was never against vaccinations etc in the October 2013 interview (that ironically was probably done in whole or part because of the fallout from the widely-read Huffington Post piece in July that I'm trying to add). That's a classic "moving the goalposts" fallacy among other travesties. But that's only apparent if the article and history itself retains documentation and knowledge of her many years in fighting child vaccinations. We can slowly or quickly scrub this article and perhaps history itself of her high profile efforts in fighting vaccinations so that only her denial of doing so is the only remaining record, but why would we voluntarily do that? Why? And why here of all places?
In short, we should fight censorship, bias and protection by fans and allow the Huffington Post article reference and quote into the wiki article. Specifically because this is a living person, we need to be especially vigilant in keeping this neutral. Alternatively, since the key is the CDC data to the piece I want to add, people need to provide a great deal of information refuting CDC statistics on vaccinations that is not original research, is neutral, and is verifiable. A few smug, refuted comments in the comment section of deleting content doesn't cut it per wikipedia standards.
What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.100.23.77 ( talk • contribs)
>I also note silence on the previous repeated assertions of "fancruft" that led to this discussion. What happened? You can continue to move the goalposts, but you can't bend reality, objectivity and wikipedia's policies to implement a personal agenda that is blatantly in opposition to wiki principles. EvergreenFir, if not also others, is obviously biased - on June 28 I attempted to discuss this topic on the talk pages before adding anything to the article - but she deleted my talk page entry quickly by stating in part "Please stop using talk pages such as Talk:Jenny McCarthy for general discussion of the topic. They are for discussion related to improving the article...". Yet on July 9, EvergreenFir deletes the sourced article with the admonishment "Please discuss on the talk page". The very topic under discussion is apparently objectionable to EvergreenFir, and is rather obviously working backwards to justify a strong position taken before ever actually reading any of the article in question or considering any of its sources - in short, EvergreenFir made up his/her mind before applying wiki policies to the actual content. Keep that in mind when making up yours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.100.23.77 ( talk)
Please sign your posts @ 98.100.23.77: please sign all of your posts when you make them, and copy over the original sig with time/date stamp if you must break someone else's comment into sections. Thank you. 71.234.215.133 ( talk) 18:47, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Post close note: I have reverted the protection back to what it was prior to the RfC (pending changes), per Dougweller's closure, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the material added with the sourcing provided will be permitted. As such, any repeated addition of the content can be considered in violation of the biographies of living persons policy, and may result in a block. -- kelapstick( bainuu) 14:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
This article is pro-vaccine biased and should be rewritten along the lines of neutrality, since this is supposed to be an article about the actress, not about vaccines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merryme.bd ( talk • contribs)
Powerslide recently re-added info about McCarthy's quote saying she went to the University of Google. The two sources given were not the best, but I found two others that seem better to me: People and Forbes. That said, I cannot find anything about the claim that she dropped out of college (which was originally cited with the non-reliable source with IMDB).
Question is whether or not it should be included in the article. Without info on previous education, I think just adding the "University of Google" part would be WP:UNDUE. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 20:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
-> User: Xenophrenic classified it as vandalism and used that as his reason for removal. It is certainly not vandalism. It is well-cited. Anyone can certainly go watch that Oprah episode. Jenny McCarthy claimed that her credentials for giving anti-vax advice is through her self-education and mommy instinct. Powerslide ( talk)
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@ JoBrodie:@ AngusWOOF: I can't help but wonder if this is a WP:BLP violation. [1] Do we actually have reliable sources that label this article's topic as "autism quack" The word "quack" seems particularly unencyclopedic. Do reliable sources actually use this term when describing Jenny McCarthy? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 12:26, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Why do you have extensive quotes from vaccine proponents but never once do you list MDs, PhDs, or other researchers who agree with her opinion on vaccine harm? Why do you not cite the Zimmerman quote and testimony that clearly links vaccines to some cases of autism? I thought Wiki was objective but this is so slanted it reads like a NYT article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.112.125 ( talk) 04:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
here's the study you are looking for proof: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30395948 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.100.154.230 ( talk) 04:15, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Humans aren’t rats or monkeys either, yet we regularly use animal studies to evaluate something’s effect on a human. CMTBard ( talk) 14:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree, this page is ridiculously biased as seen by the immediate removal of even the smallest effort to keep the page in accurate, scientifically honest terms. CMTBard ( talk) 14:28, 8 August 2019 (UTC)