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Is anyone aware of any extrabiblical ancient sources which refer to Jebusites or to a people having a similar name? -- Briangotts (talk) 18:11, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the Wiki article neglects to mention 1 Chronicles, which says (KJV),
1Chr.11 [1] Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. [2] And moreover in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel. [3] Therefore came all the elders of Israel to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the LORD; and they anointed David king over Israel, according to the word of the LORD by Samuel. [4] And David and all Israel went to Jerusalem, which is Jebus; where the Jebusites were, the inhabitants of the land. [5] And the inhabitants of Jebus said to David, Thou shalt not come hither. Nevertheless David took the castle of Zion, which is the city of David. [6] And David said, Whosoever smiteth the Jebusites first shall be chief and captain. So Joab the son of Zeruiah went first up, and was chief. [7] And David dwelt in the castle; therefore they called it the city of David.
Source: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=1662819
Jebusite
Using the term "conquest" makes a judgment that King David actually "conquered" Jerusalem, rather than co-opting its management, as the Jebusite Hypothesis (in this Article) suggests. For that reason, "occupation" is a more neutral word and seems preferable, although perhaps still other words might be better (and if so, please suggest).
The lack of any information (even Biblical) asserting massacre of the inhabitants suggests peaceful occupation (or even making an offer that the management couldn't refuse--such as steak dinners forever for Zadoq/Araunah and his descendants in exchange for nominal substitution of "Yahweh" for "El Elyon" as alternative to massacre). Therefore, I propose to change "conquest" to "occupation" in a week or so if no contrary consensus emerges.
PraeceptorIP ( talk) 18:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
based on the research that I read, it seems to me that David and the Jebusite have a good relationship. Why else would the Jebusites hand over mount Moriah? --Michal 16:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
The bible often present contradicting accounts. I think that Wiki should present all 'the theories' rather than the popular version. Please read 1 Chronicles 21 vs:22-23. David asked the governor of the Jebusites for his land to build the Temple and the Jebusite governor gives it to him without any hesitation. This completely contradicts what is written here. I won't go into detail here but there are many reasons to doubt the popular version of conquest.--Michal 16:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
There are many, and they should be added to this article, which currently only discusses the biblical vision of the Jebusites. Archaeology has provided much information, some of which upholds and others which contradict the biblical narrative. I'll work on adding some of these to the article. Tiamut talk 18:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Tanakh: this term, which represents a complete unit of its own in Judaism, cannot possibly be used to refer to a part of the "Bible", which is essentially a Christian term, so it's better to stick to "Old Testament". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pamour ( talk • contribs) 18:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I turned up this: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2006-March/006774.html which claims that the article, "The Origin of Palestinians and Their Genetic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations" was retracted by the journal that originally published it. This article is used as the sole reference for a claim about genetic studies in the "Modern Usage" section.
I don't have access to this journal, so I can't verify either that it was the original publisher, or that it issued a retraction. And perhaps there are other genetic studies that have reached similar conclusions. But if this is really the only source, and it was retracted, then I'm thinking that, "Also modern genetic studies shows Palestinians are direct descendants of Canaanite people" should be removed from the article.
Can anyone help? Grease Bandit ( talk) 20:51, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Here; Gibbons, Ann (October 30, 2000). "Jews and Arabs Share Recent Ancestry". ScienceNOW. American Academy for the Advancement of Science.
Surprise, surprise, both palestinians and jews come from the same core prehistorical population... I think that statement has all the right to stay.
212.163.172.180 (
talk) 17:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)Leirus
212.163.172.180 (
talk) 17:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
If it should stay, it should take a more neutral approach, by including what you just stated, that both come from the same core prehistorical population. Augustun84 ( talk) 16:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The lines at the end of this subsection are politically loaded and cite highly controversial references:
First of all, it is not in Wikipedias place to state a subjective analysis of the motivation of the Palestinian Authorities for teaching what they teach; for all we know, they actually do believe it's their history. The references given to back this claim are known ideological sources, and they do not provide evidence for any of the claims, only opinions. They ridicule Arafat for first claiming to be a Canaanite, and then claiming to be a Jebusite which is supposed to be a contradiction. It is not, Jebusites are considered a subgroup of Canaanites. Furthermore, how exactly would one use archeological evidence to link Palestinians to the Jebusites? There's cultural, linguistic, genetic and historical evidence in the Wikipedia article on Palestinian people ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people) linking them to ancient inhabitants (without naming Jebusites in particular). Simply stating that there is no archaeological evidence, adds nothing but a biased point of view.
Because of this, the following lines should be removed from the Modern Use section. Or at the very least, they should be balanced with some actual evidence.
"The claim is used as an attempt to prove a connection between Palestinians and Jerusalem that predates the Muslim conquest. [1] There is, however, no archaeological evidence linking the Arab-Palestinians of today with the Jebusites of the Canaanite period. [2]ref name=MEQ-PJE>David Wenkel,". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.39.125.35 ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 24 October 2010
References
See WP:NORN#Edit says that source doesn't directly mention subject of article. Dougweller ( talk) 09:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller ( talk • contribs) 08:12, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Just found the text below in the article. Dougweller ( talk) 06:46, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Why doesn't the genealogy mention that Canaanites were under the family of Cush who is identified as Ethiopian in later writing? Clearly, racial differences played a part of the conflicts of that time, i.e. 'El and his appellations were therefore Cushite in origin. [Larry West, 3/7/2013]
The Jebusites. They're found. They're found. Here is your proof: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130710114327.htm. Anonymous 71.164.209.8 ( talk) 20:32, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Jebusite which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
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Cyberbot II has detected links on Jebusite which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
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From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 20:47, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
יבוסי given as a plural (and obviously not in construct-state)? Yeesh. Amateurish way to start. 120.148.217.45 ( talk) 17:08, 18 May 2015
At the present end of the article is this statement: "Archaeological excavation and records that are conclusively dated from the 'post-exilic' period consistently undermine the historical record of the Old Testament," citing the minimalist Silberman. This is not balanced. Others, such as William G. Dever, take a different position. (See, e.g., the foregoing William G. Dever WP article.) This statement is biased and should be deleted or replaced with a balanced or NPOV statement. PraeceptorIP ( talk) 21:18, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
A well meaning but uninformed unregistered user changed the BCE dates citations to BC. Scholarly use for Ancient Near East uniformly designates these dates before the common era as BCE, not BC. Thank you. PraeceptorIP ( talk) 23:33, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
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Is anyone aware of any extrabiblical ancient sources which refer to Jebusites or to a people having a similar name? -- Briangotts (talk) 18:11, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the Wiki article neglects to mention 1 Chronicles, which says (KJV),
1Chr.11 [1] Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. [2] And moreover in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel. [3] Therefore came all the elders of Israel to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the LORD; and they anointed David king over Israel, according to the word of the LORD by Samuel. [4] And David and all Israel went to Jerusalem, which is Jebus; where the Jebusites were, the inhabitants of the land. [5] And the inhabitants of Jebus said to David, Thou shalt not come hither. Nevertheless David took the castle of Zion, which is the city of David. [6] And David said, Whosoever smiteth the Jebusites first shall be chief and captain. So Joab the son of Zeruiah went first up, and was chief. [7] And David dwelt in the castle; therefore they called it the city of David.
Source: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=1662819
Jebusite
Using the term "conquest" makes a judgment that King David actually "conquered" Jerusalem, rather than co-opting its management, as the Jebusite Hypothesis (in this Article) suggests. For that reason, "occupation" is a more neutral word and seems preferable, although perhaps still other words might be better (and if so, please suggest).
The lack of any information (even Biblical) asserting massacre of the inhabitants suggests peaceful occupation (or even making an offer that the management couldn't refuse--such as steak dinners forever for Zadoq/Araunah and his descendants in exchange for nominal substitution of "Yahweh" for "El Elyon" as alternative to massacre). Therefore, I propose to change "conquest" to "occupation" in a week or so if no contrary consensus emerges.
PraeceptorIP ( talk) 18:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
based on the research that I read, it seems to me that David and the Jebusite have a good relationship. Why else would the Jebusites hand over mount Moriah? --Michal 16:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
The bible often present contradicting accounts. I think that Wiki should present all 'the theories' rather than the popular version. Please read 1 Chronicles 21 vs:22-23. David asked the governor of the Jebusites for his land to build the Temple and the Jebusite governor gives it to him without any hesitation. This completely contradicts what is written here. I won't go into detail here but there are many reasons to doubt the popular version of conquest.--Michal 16:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
There are many, and they should be added to this article, which currently only discusses the biblical vision of the Jebusites. Archaeology has provided much information, some of which upholds and others which contradict the biblical narrative. I'll work on adding some of these to the article. Tiamut talk 18:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Tanakh: this term, which represents a complete unit of its own in Judaism, cannot possibly be used to refer to a part of the "Bible", which is essentially a Christian term, so it's better to stick to "Old Testament". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pamour ( talk • contribs) 18:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I turned up this: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2006-March/006774.html which claims that the article, "The Origin of Palestinians and Their Genetic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations" was retracted by the journal that originally published it. This article is used as the sole reference for a claim about genetic studies in the "Modern Usage" section.
I don't have access to this journal, so I can't verify either that it was the original publisher, or that it issued a retraction. And perhaps there are other genetic studies that have reached similar conclusions. But if this is really the only source, and it was retracted, then I'm thinking that, "Also modern genetic studies shows Palestinians are direct descendants of Canaanite people" should be removed from the article.
Can anyone help? Grease Bandit ( talk) 20:51, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Here; Gibbons, Ann (October 30, 2000). "Jews and Arabs Share Recent Ancestry". ScienceNOW. American Academy for the Advancement of Science.
Surprise, surprise, both palestinians and jews come from the same core prehistorical population... I think that statement has all the right to stay.
212.163.172.180 (
talk) 17:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)Leirus
212.163.172.180 (
talk) 17:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
If it should stay, it should take a more neutral approach, by including what you just stated, that both come from the same core prehistorical population. Augustun84 ( talk) 16:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The lines at the end of this subsection are politically loaded and cite highly controversial references:
First of all, it is not in Wikipedias place to state a subjective analysis of the motivation of the Palestinian Authorities for teaching what they teach; for all we know, they actually do believe it's their history. The references given to back this claim are known ideological sources, and they do not provide evidence for any of the claims, only opinions. They ridicule Arafat for first claiming to be a Canaanite, and then claiming to be a Jebusite which is supposed to be a contradiction. It is not, Jebusites are considered a subgroup of Canaanites. Furthermore, how exactly would one use archeological evidence to link Palestinians to the Jebusites? There's cultural, linguistic, genetic and historical evidence in the Wikipedia article on Palestinian people ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people) linking them to ancient inhabitants (without naming Jebusites in particular). Simply stating that there is no archaeological evidence, adds nothing but a biased point of view.
Because of this, the following lines should be removed from the Modern Use section. Or at the very least, they should be balanced with some actual evidence.
"The claim is used as an attempt to prove a connection between Palestinians and Jerusalem that predates the Muslim conquest. [1] There is, however, no archaeological evidence linking the Arab-Palestinians of today with the Jebusites of the Canaanite period. [2]ref name=MEQ-PJE>David Wenkel,". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.39.125.35 ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 24 October 2010
References
See WP:NORN#Edit says that source doesn't directly mention subject of article. Dougweller ( talk) 09:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller ( talk • contribs) 08:12, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Just found the text below in the article. Dougweller ( talk) 06:46, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Why doesn't the genealogy mention that Canaanites were under the family of Cush who is identified as Ethiopian in later writing? Clearly, racial differences played a part of the conflicts of that time, i.e. 'El and his appellations were therefore Cushite in origin. [Larry West, 3/7/2013]
The Jebusites. They're found. They're found. Here is your proof: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130710114327.htm. Anonymous 71.164.209.8 ( talk) 20:32, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Jebusite which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
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Cyberbot II has detected links on Jebusite which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
\bbible\-history\.com\b
on the local blacklistIf you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 20:47, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
יבוסי given as a plural (and obviously not in construct-state)? Yeesh. Amateurish way to start. 120.148.217.45 ( talk) 17:08, 18 May 2015
At the present end of the article is this statement: "Archaeological excavation and records that are conclusively dated from the 'post-exilic' period consistently undermine the historical record of the Old Testament," citing the minimalist Silberman. This is not balanced. Others, such as William G. Dever, take a different position. (See, e.g., the foregoing William G. Dever WP article.) This statement is biased and should be deleted or replaced with a balanced or NPOV statement. PraeceptorIP ( talk) 21:18, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
A well meaning but uninformed unregistered user changed the BCE dates citations to BC. Scholarly use for Ancient Near East uniformly designates these dates before the common era as BCE, not BC. Thank you. PraeceptorIP ( talk) 23:33, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jebusite. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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