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![]() | On 27 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
I had thought the recent DVD release was the first ever, but apparently there was an earlier issue. Oddity: Jeanne Dielman–Criterion Cooking Video Contest! ( archive). / edg ☺ ☭ 12:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Several times the following explanation of the murder has been deleted (by varying editors), [1] [2] [3] [4]
when she unexpectedly has an orgasm with the day's client
... and then restored each time by Nightspore ( talk · contribs). [5] [6] [7] [8]
No case has been made for this orgasm—it's an ideocyncratic interpretation that I would consider rather contrary to the intent of the movie (and therefore a real disservice in this article). Rather than argue interpretations, however, I'll offer that the Slant magazine review (linked from this article) describes the ending as ambiguous (listing "unexpected orgasm" not once in the possible interpretations), and User:Nightspore has not provided a source for this this apparently unstated (and, IMO, unlikely) motivation. I don't have a link to the Akerman interview, but the Slant article refers to her saying the murder was an arbitrary, definitive ending without any other meaning in itself (the preceeding 3+ hours of the movie being the "point", so to speak).
Please understand I am not objecting to a plot spoiler; revealing the murder and its specifics are fine with me. My main concern is the motivation being given for this action is completely unsourced.
Since it pushes upon readers (and potential viewers) a pat (in the sense of being both trite and superficially complete) message that may not be (and I would say probably isn't) the director's intent, this error non-trivial in effect.
I would very much like to remove this misleading motivation from the summary, and I would like it not to be reinstated. I'd prefer to see some kind of WP:CONSENSUS established beforehand (rather than a perpetual WP:EDITWAR). Is there any reason I should not remove this line? Is there any reason for retaining this explanation? / edg ☺ ☭ 02:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I realize that this conversation took place many years ago, but Chantal Akerman stated in a 2009 interview ("Chantal Akerman on Jeanne Dielman") included in the Criterion release that Jeanne Dielman did in fact have an orgasm in this scene. Here is the quote:
“She has her first orgasm ever with her second client, which makes her burn the potatoes, which makes her forget to cover the soup pot, which makes her have to go buy more potatoes, and so on. And all this destroys the rhythm and rituals of her life. Her rituals keep her together. This orgasm actually destroyed her life, in a way. That’s why she kills the third client. Because she has an orgasm with him too, and she kills him. In a certain way, she kills him to preserve her obsessive world and keep it as it is. Delphine [the actress who played Jeanne] said to me, ‘If I have an orgasm, I want a second and a third.’ But I think she never lived in that world. Because in a certain way, I think that never having an orgasm is what held her together.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:F2C0:9C12:E600:8DBD:7D1A:AF52:44E2 ( talk) 22:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Akerman says it is not real time in this interview. www.canvas.be/programmas/de-canvasconnectie/server1-4fb24d04%3A13d7c2bafba%3A-4a14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.172.196.228 ( talk) 11:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to Icarus of old for raising this issue in a reversion of "CATEGORY:Films about food and drink," and edit summary ( here).
I share the concern to get it right, or at least as close to "right" as the existing categories allow. It would be better if there were a category "Films with food themes" or some such, but....
The closest category I could find was "Films about food and drink," which still seems to me a little better than "Cooking films." I agree that it would be "reductionist" to use either one of them as the only category, but no more so than "Films about prostitution." Each of these categories has heuristic value.
My motive was to lead readers to this "seminal feminist film" (as IOO rightly terms it). Akerman has used food and cooking from the beginning of her career for thematic and analytical purposes, and it is not "reductionist" to acknowledge this aspect of her craft.
But again thanks for objecting to the original category and forcing me to add more sources.
BTW, what makes anyone think I am a "MAN"? ch ( talk) 18:59, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Not moved. Opposed proposal made by an IP sock. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 06:36, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles → Jeanne Dielman, 23, Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles – Restoring the missing comma after "23". 90.249.169.199 ( talk) 12:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
This article, and others in Wikipedia and elsewhere, uses the quotation "first masterpiece of the feminine in the history of the cinema" that is attributed to the New York Times. I've been unable to find the original quotation in an archive search there. The quotation appears to be a translation of text in a review for Le Monde by
Louis Marcorelles. The source for this is: Spaas, Lieve (2000).
Francophone Film: A Struggle for Identity. Manchester University Press. p. 27.
ISBN
9780719058615. In Le Monde Louis Marcorelles referred to the film as 'Undoubtedly the first masterpiece of the feminine in the history of cinema' (Marcorelles Le Monde 22 January 1976, trans.).
I'm planning to make the corresponding revision, but am delaying a bit in case there are objections to my source.
Easchiff (
talk)
05:24, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Um...? Slice of life describes the depiction of mundane experiences in art and entertainment. "Jeanne [...] has sex with male clients in her house daily [and] she murders a client." Sounds like my days aren't mundane enough. 2A01:C22:A414:FD00:87C:49D4:9744:3DBD ( talk) 10:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
What happen on the third day?? Neocorelight ( Talk) 06:37, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 01:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles → Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles – A scholarly book published in 2021 uses this form throughout. Also matches what appears on the cover of the Criterion Blu-ray. Jovian Eclipse 19:18, 27 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 19:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 18:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 27 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
I had thought the recent DVD release was the first ever, but apparently there was an earlier issue. Oddity: Jeanne Dielman–Criterion Cooking Video Contest! ( archive). / edg ☺ ☭ 12:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Several times the following explanation of the murder has been deleted (by varying editors), [1] [2] [3] [4]
when she unexpectedly has an orgasm with the day's client
... and then restored each time by Nightspore ( talk · contribs). [5] [6] [7] [8]
No case has been made for this orgasm—it's an ideocyncratic interpretation that I would consider rather contrary to the intent of the movie (and therefore a real disservice in this article). Rather than argue interpretations, however, I'll offer that the Slant magazine review (linked from this article) describes the ending as ambiguous (listing "unexpected orgasm" not once in the possible interpretations), and User:Nightspore has not provided a source for this this apparently unstated (and, IMO, unlikely) motivation. I don't have a link to the Akerman interview, but the Slant article refers to her saying the murder was an arbitrary, definitive ending without any other meaning in itself (the preceeding 3+ hours of the movie being the "point", so to speak).
Please understand I am not objecting to a plot spoiler; revealing the murder and its specifics are fine with me. My main concern is the motivation being given for this action is completely unsourced.
Since it pushes upon readers (and potential viewers) a pat (in the sense of being both trite and superficially complete) message that may not be (and I would say probably isn't) the director's intent, this error non-trivial in effect.
I would very much like to remove this misleading motivation from the summary, and I would like it not to be reinstated. I'd prefer to see some kind of WP:CONSENSUS established beforehand (rather than a perpetual WP:EDITWAR). Is there any reason I should not remove this line? Is there any reason for retaining this explanation? / edg ☺ ☭ 02:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I realize that this conversation took place many years ago, but Chantal Akerman stated in a 2009 interview ("Chantal Akerman on Jeanne Dielman") included in the Criterion release that Jeanne Dielman did in fact have an orgasm in this scene. Here is the quote:
“She has her first orgasm ever with her second client, which makes her burn the potatoes, which makes her forget to cover the soup pot, which makes her have to go buy more potatoes, and so on. And all this destroys the rhythm and rituals of her life. Her rituals keep her together. This orgasm actually destroyed her life, in a way. That’s why she kills the third client. Because she has an orgasm with him too, and she kills him. In a certain way, she kills him to preserve her obsessive world and keep it as it is. Delphine [the actress who played Jeanne] said to me, ‘If I have an orgasm, I want a second and a third.’ But I think she never lived in that world. Because in a certain way, I think that never having an orgasm is what held her together.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:F2C0:9C12:E600:8DBD:7D1A:AF52:44E2 ( talk) 22:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Akerman says it is not real time in this interview. www.canvas.be/programmas/de-canvasconnectie/server1-4fb24d04%3A13d7c2bafba%3A-4a14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.172.196.228 ( talk) 11:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to Icarus of old for raising this issue in a reversion of "CATEGORY:Films about food and drink," and edit summary ( here).
I share the concern to get it right, or at least as close to "right" as the existing categories allow. It would be better if there were a category "Films with food themes" or some such, but....
The closest category I could find was "Films about food and drink," which still seems to me a little better than "Cooking films." I agree that it would be "reductionist" to use either one of them as the only category, but no more so than "Films about prostitution." Each of these categories has heuristic value.
My motive was to lead readers to this "seminal feminist film" (as IOO rightly terms it). Akerman has used food and cooking from the beginning of her career for thematic and analytical purposes, and it is not "reductionist" to acknowledge this aspect of her craft.
But again thanks for objecting to the original category and forcing me to add more sources.
BTW, what makes anyone think I am a "MAN"? ch ( talk) 18:59, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified one external link on Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:50, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Opposed proposal made by an IP sock. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 06:36, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles → Jeanne Dielman, 23, Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles – Restoring the missing comma after "23". 90.249.169.199 ( talk) 12:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
This article, and others in Wikipedia and elsewhere, uses the quotation "first masterpiece of the feminine in the history of the cinema" that is attributed to the New York Times. I've been unable to find the original quotation in an archive search there. The quotation appears to be a translation of text in a review for Le Monde by
Louis Marcorelles. The source for this is: Spaas, Lieve (2000).
Francophone Film: A Struggle for Identity. Manchester University Press. p. 27.
ISBN
9780719058615. In Le Monde Louis Marcorelles referred to the film as 'Undoubtedly the first masterpiece of the feminine in the history of cinema' (Marcorelles Le Monde 22 January 1976, trans.).
I'm planning to make the corresponding revision, but am delaying a bit in case there are objections to my source.
Easchiff (
talk)
05:24, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Um...? Slice of life describes the depiction of mundane experiences in art and entertainment. "Jeanne [...] has sex with male clients in her house daily [and] she murders a client." Sounds like my days aren't mundane enough. 2A01:C22:A414:FD00:87C:49D4:9744:3DBD ( talk) 10:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
What happen on the third day?? Neocorelight ( Talk) 06:37, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 01:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles → Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles – A scholarly book published in 2021 uses this form throughout. Also matches what appears on the cover of the Criterion Blu-ray. Jovian Eclipse 19:18, 27 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 19:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 18:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)