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Is this surname pronounced with soft ch (like English sh) or hard (like k)? 195.72.173.52 ( talk) 10:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Translated|fr|Jean-Luc Mélenchon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Culloty82 ( talk • contribs) 19:53, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Morocco in times of the protectorate was divided in a larger "French" zone, a smaller "Spanish" zone and the free city of Tangier. So he was born in Morocco but not in 'French Morocco' (neither 'Spanish Morocco' either). -- 85.84.229.109 ( talk) 22:15, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
He died today. [1] Alts ( talk) 12:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 05:11, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Currently, Mélenchon's article is in the category of "French Freemasons"? Is this genuine? I was under the impression that the French left (left of the social democrats) were anti-masonic since the 1920s. Even Trotsky condemned freemasonry (I notice Mélenchon was a Trotskyite in the 1970s). There are a few websites which mention his Masonic links but how reliable? This video? Claíomh Solais ( talk) 16:55, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth, this Guardian article cites Mélenchon's own 2015 book Bismarck’s Herring (The German Poison) (published in 2016 in paperback as Le hareng de Bismarck : Le poison allemande, ISBN: 978-2290127940) as the source of his anti-German sentiments. JezGrove ( talk) 19:38, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
this section is unsatisfactory, as a long accusation of anti german sentiment is not balanced by quotes from Mélenchon's people. 2A01:CB08:634:DA00:3829:BB97:D187:78A1 ( talk) 10:28, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
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This section should be deleted, or at least extensively rewritten. CRIF doesn't "represent French Jews," it has no official mandate. Its links to the Likud are well known. No one has in good faith ever accused Mélenchon of being an antisemite. This is explicitely mentioned in the French version of the page. Daily newspaper France Soir wrote that "aucun des interlocuteurs contactés par le journal n'accuse Jean-Luc Mélenchon d'antisémitisme, ni ne le sous-entend." It should be noted that Mélenchon recently (2020) criticized the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran for having the destruction of Israel as one of the pillars of its regime, calling it an "unbearable project that creates extraordinary tensions in the region".
I added a section with Melenchon's comments on the Iranian regime following the death of Soleimani. 15:40, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
The Foreign Policy section of the article contains the following:
Commenting for The Guardian in April 2017, Natalie Nougayrède, a former executive editor and managing editor of Le Monde,[63] noted:
"In his 2015 book Bismarck’s Herring, Mélenchon wrote that, 'Germany is again a danger', its 'imperialism' is 'returning', and the EU is its 'new empire'. He's described Germans as 'grumbling Teutons' who seek to 'deport' their old people to Eastern Europe or Thailand. And he's written that German 'expansionism' was at work in the country's 1990 reunification – an 'annexation' of East Germany, in his words. That, in itself, is no small rewriting of history, and no small denial of a people's freely expressed will after the fall of communism. His criticism of Angela Merkel's eurozone policies goes far beyond the economic. It peddles nationalistic, if not bigoted, hatreds. He may have tried to soften that impression by saying he wants 'the peoples of Europe' to revolt against their governments – and not start to fight among themselves. But he has hardly backtracked on any of his earlier statements. Much of this echoes and amplifies Le Pen's rhetoric, rather than helping to combat it."
Its completely unreasonable to have such a gargantuan quotation in the article, especially when it is clearly in violation of WP:NPOV, as well as WP:DUEWEIGHT Reflecktor ( talk) 11:33, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
It seems to me there are far too many journalistic sources, often based on a sentence or two JLM said and far too few quotations from his many books and articles 2A01:CB08:8BE:AA00:F485:76F2:A8D8:DC0C ( talk) 09:09, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
The Guardian has published
an article inviting French people whose views align with the newspaper's own ideology and assumptions to give their analysis on the current French elections. One of the contributors explains that she voted for
Anne Hidalgo, partly or mainly because Hidalgo is an immigrant like herself, and adds: "Most people of my political inclinations voted for Mélenchon, but I couldn’t bring myself to support someone who has an “Accusations of anti-semitism” section on his Wikipedia page".
I just thought I would point that out as a reminder of the need for us to be very careful in biographical articles on living people, that we don't smear them. Mélenchon is clearly and obviously not an anti-Semite, and any person with even a basic understanding of his views understands easily what he meant in the comments that have been misinterpreted against him. But the false accusation itself has led that voter at least to (unthinkingly) assume the worst about him.
Aridd (
talk)
12:55, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:23, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
@ SashiRolls: I believe the source supports the claim:
Jean-Luc Melenchon, a far-left politician from France who is often described as Corbyn’s counterpart there, had a different take [on the British Election result]: On Friday, posting on his Facebook page, Melenchon blamed “networks of influence from Likud,” the Israeli ruling party, before inveighing against French Jews.
I think source is clear that he is saying the result was influenced by the Israeli
Likud Party and the
French Jews
, as I don't see any other way to interpret inveighing against French Jews
in this context. Other sources also appear to support this, including the
Jewish Chronicle.
Also notifying RAMSES$44932, who added the content eight months ago. BilledMammal ( talk) 00:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
inveighing against French Jewsin relation to the results of the British election, which supports the claim that they influenced the result. If you disagree, what do you think he was inveighing against them for? BilledMammal ( talk) 00:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
As is obvious, the context makes no such thing clear.
inveighing against French Jewsin regards to? Unless your claim is the source is saying he is inveighing against them generally? BilledMammal ( talk) 15:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
it's related to JLM's criticism of the CRIF, which has absolutely nothing to do with British elections.that's some selective misreading. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 17:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Oxford definition of propaganda: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.)-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 22:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Every single other source mentioned so far in this discussion (four sources) refer to the CRIF and include direct citations. Zero of these four RS claim that Mélenchon "inveighed against French Jews" in general, much less 'held "the
" French Jews responsible for the results of a UK election' (which the source in question does not claim either, but which was
added to this entry). We're done here.--
SashiRolls
🌿 ·
🍥
22:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
inveighing against French Jewsin regards to.
presenting a partisan view and inaccurate view of the situation, and that the source was over-generalizing, but you've since clarified that is not the case. BilledMammal ( talk) 18:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Your reading is wrong. I bought a shirt in an English shop, before putting on a stylish French beret.
does not mean I bought a stylish French beret in an English shop. Enough. (
also, the author appears to have a rep for this sort of thing) --
SashiRolls
🌿 ·
🍥
19:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
This is fuzzy'd up. Mélenchon blamed Likud influence networks and the UK Chief Rabbi (not CRIF/French Jews) for Corbyn's loss. However, he does equate this to the CRIF, denouncing any "genuflexion to the arrogant ukases [read: diktats] of the CRIF communautaristes". Most criticism centred on UK Jewish groups being lumped in with French ones; he is not accused of claiming French Jews influenced UK elections, he's accused of framing it as an international Left versus an international Jewry. Here are some sources: [2] [3] [4] (The word communautariste, in French politics, refers to perceived allegiance to ethnic/religion-based group identity, and is a pejorative, just to give you the cultural context; it is seen as the construction of an "otherness" that threatens a national unity grounded on allegiance to the Republic as the sole and exclusive group identity; e.g. Muslims who complain of Islamophobia are also accused of communautarisme by the right-wing and far-right). DFlhb ( talk) 19:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
I've removed the label of "far-left" that was added to the lead. There are plenty of sources that call him left-wing, seen here: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], and [15].
Therefore, to just state far-left is unbalanced. I'm not sure if labelling a person "left-wing to far-left" would be helpful. Personally, I think political positions should be left to the pages of political parties and organisations, rather than people. Therefore, I think the most balanced and neutral thing is probably to include neither label. Helper201 ( talk) 08:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
I've moved the descriptor to the 3rd sentence and added "often described as" -- FMSky ( talk) 12:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Sources from 2022 and prior, describe him as left-wing overwhelmingly. We shouldn't skew the article with a short-term perspective WP:RECENTISM. Although a compromise would be to state he is left-wing in the lede but expand on the recent coverage in the § Political positions section that he is "often described as" far-left by some observers. — hako9 ( talk) 12:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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|
Is this surname pronounced with soft ch (like English sh) or hard (like k)? 195.72.173.52 ( talk) 10:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Translated|fr|Jean-Luc Mélenchon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Culloty82 ( talk • contribs) 19:53, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Morocco in times of the protectorate was divided in a larger "French" zone, a smaller "Spanish" zone and the free city of Tangier. So he was born in Morocco but not in 'French Morocco' (neither 'Spanish Morocco' either). -- 85.84.229.109 ( talk) 22:15, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
He died today. [1] Alts ( talk) 12:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 05:11, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Currently, Mélenchon's article is in the category of "French Freemasons"? Is this genuine? I was under the impression that the French left (left of the social democrats) were anti-masonic since the 1920s. Even Trotsky condemned freemasonry (I notice Mélenchon was a Trotskyite in the 1970s). There are a few websites which mention his Masonic links but how reliable? This video? Claíomh Solais ( talk) 16:55, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth, this Guardian article cites Mélenchon's own 2015 book Bismarck’s Herring (The German Poison) (published in 2016 in paperback as Le hareng de Bismarck : Le poison allemande, ISBN: 978-2290127940) as the source of his anti-German sentiments. JezGrove ( talk) 19:38, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
this section is unsatisfactory, as a long accusation of anti german sentiment is not balanced by quotes from Mélenchon's people. 2A01:CB08:634:DA00:3829:BB97:D187:78A1 ( talk) 10:28, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
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This section should be deleted, or at least extensively rewritten. CRIF doesn't "represent French Jews," it has no official mandate. Its links to the Likud are well known. No one has in good faith ever accused Mélenchon of being an antisemite. This is explicitely mentioned in the French version of the page. Daily newspaper France Soir wrote that "aucun des interlocuteurs contactés par le journal n'accuse Jean-Luc Mélenchon d'antisémitisme, ni ne le sous-entend." It should be noted that Mélenchon recently (2020) criticized the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran for having the destruction of Israel as one of the pillars of its regime, calling it an "unbearable project that creates extraordinary tensions in the region".
I added a section with Melenchon's comments on the Iranian regime following the death of Soleimani. 15:40, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
The Foreign Policy section of the article contains the following:
Commenting for The Guardian in April 2017, Natalie Nougayrède, a former executive editor and managing editor of Le Monde,[63] noted:
"In his 2015 book Bismarck’s Herring, Mélenchon wrote that, 'Germany is again a danger', its 'imperialism' is 'returning', and the EU is its 'new empire'. He's described Germans as 'grumbling Teutons' who seek to 'deport' their old people to Eastern Europe or Thailand. And he's written that German 'expansionism' was at work in the country's 1990 reunification – an 'annexation' of East Germany, in his words. That, in itself, is no small rewriting of history, and no small denial of a people's freely expressed will after the fall of communism. His criticism of Angela Merkel's eurozone policies goes far beyond the economic. It peddles nationalistic, if not bigoted, hatreds. He may have tried to soften that impression by saying he wants 'the peoples of Europe' to revolt against their governments – and not start to fight among themselves. But he has hardly backtracked on any of his earlier statements. Much of this echoes and amplifies Le Pen's rhetoric, rather than helping to combat it."
Its completely unreasonable to have such a gargantuan quotation in the article, especially when it is clearly in violation of WP:NPOV, as well as WP:DUEWEIGHT Reflecktor ( talk) 11:33, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
It seems to me there are far too many journalistic sources, often based on a sentence or two JLM said and far too few quotations from his many books and articles 2A01:CB08:8BE:AA00:F485:76F2:A8D8:DC0C ( talk) 09:09, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
The Guardian has published
an article inviting French people whose views align with the newspaper's own ideology and assumptions to give their analysis on the current French elections. One of the contributors explains that she voted for
Anne Hidalgo, partly or mainly because Hidalgo is an immigrant like herself, and adds: "Most people of my political inclinations voted for Mélenchon, but I couldn’t bring myself to support someone who has an “Accusations of anti-semitism” section on his Wikipedia page".
I just thought I would point that out as a reminder of the need for us to be very careful in biographical articles on living people, that we don't smear them. Mélenchon is clearly and obviously not an anti-Semite, and any person with even a basic understanding of his views understands easily what he meant in the comments that have been misinterpreted against him. But the false accusation itself has led that voter at least to (unthinkingly) assume the worst about him.
Aridd (
talk)
12:55, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:23, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
@ SashiRolls: I believe the source supports the claim:
Jean-Luc Melenchon, a far-left politician from France who is often described as Corbyn’s counterpart there, had a different take [on the British Election result]: On Friday, posting on his Facebook page, Melenchon blamed “networks of influence from Likud,” the Israeli ruling party, before inveighing against French Jews.
I think source is clear that he is saying the result was influenced by the Israeli
Likud Party and the
French Jews
, as I don't see any other way to interpret inveighing against French Jews
in this context. Other sources also appear to support this, including the
Jewish Chronicle.
Also notifying RAMSES$44932, who added the content eight months ago. BilledMammal ( talk) 00:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
inveighing against French Jewsin relation to the results of the British election, which supports the claim that they influenced the result. If you disagree, what do you think he was inveighing against them for? BilledMammal ( talk) 00:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
As is obvious, the context makes no such thing clear.
inveighing against French Jewsin regards to? Unless your claim is the source is saying he is inveighing against them generally? BilledMammal ( talk) 15:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
it's related to JLM's criticism of the CRIF, which has absolutely nothing to do with British elections.that's some selective misreading. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 17:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Oxford definition of propaganda: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.)-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 22:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Every single other source mentioned so far in this discussion (four sources) refer to the CRIF and include direct citations. Zero of these four RS claim that Mélenchon "inveighed against French Jews" in general, much less 'held "the
" French Jews responsible for the results of a UK election' (which the source in question does not claim either, but which was
added to this entry). We're done here.--
SashiRolls
🌿 ·
🍥
22:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
inveighing against French Jewsin regards to.
presenting a partisan view and inaccurate view of the situation, and that the source was over-generalizing, but you've since clarified that is not the case. BilledMammal ( talk) 18:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Your reading is wrong. I bought a shirt in an English shop, before putting on a stylish French beret.
does not mean I bought a stylish French beret in an English shop. Enough. (
also, the author appears to have a rep for this sort of thing) --
SashiRolls
🌿 ·
🍥
19:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
This is fuzzy'd up. Mélenchon blamed Likud influence networks and the UK Chief Rabbi (not CRIF/French Jews) for Corbyn's loss. However, he does equate this to the CRIF, denouncing any "genuflexion to the arrogant ukases [read: diktats] of the CRIF communautaristes". Most criticism centred on UK Jewish groups being lumped in with French ones; he is not accused of claiming French Jews influenced UK elections, he's accused of framing it as an international Left versus an international Jewry. Here are some sources: [2] [3] [4] (The word communautariste, in French politics, refers to perceived allegiance to ethnic/religion-based group identity, and is a pejorative, just to give you the cultural context; it is seen as the construction of an "otherness" that threatens a national unity grounded on allegiance to the Republic as the sole and exclusive group identity; e.g. Muslims who complain of Islamophobia are also accused of communautarisme by the right-wing and far-right). DFlhb ( talk) 19:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
I've removed the label of "far-left" that was added to the lead. There are plenty of sources that call him left-wing, seen here: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], and [15].
Therefore, to just state far-left is unbalanced. I'm not sure if labelling a person "left-wing to far-left" would be helpful. Personally, I think political positions should be left to the pages of political parties and organisations, rather than people. Therefore, I think the most balanced and neutral thing is probably to include neither label. Helper201 ( talk) 08:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
I've moved the descriptor to the 3rd sentence and added "often described as" -- FMSky ( talk) 12:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Sources from 2022 and prior, describe him as left-wing overwhelmingly. We shouldn't skew the article with a short-term perspective WP:RECENTISM. Although a compromise would be to state he is left-wing in the lede but expand on the recent coverage in the § Political positions section that he is "often described as" far-left by some observers. — hako9 ( talk) 12:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)