![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
some Bhramans believe that jats were ancient shudras
The question is about Jats not Jatts , Jatts are not hindus they are Sikhs,and they dont have vernas. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
125.21.182.12 (
talk)
10:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
I have just removed the reference to Encyclopedia Britannica's statement that Jats are a "peasant caste" as this is obviously causing people to become upset and also, the EB is not a primarary source. Now, much of the third paragraph is made up of "statistics" culled from the EB. This is unsatisfactory - is there anyone out there who can discover and give reference to the source(s) of this information, please? In the meantime, I will point to the EB as the source used as this is no longer clear since I removed the earlier reference. Sincerely, John Hill ( talk) 22:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Can't we write ethnic group rather than tribal group as many jats have objected it to be offensive and trivializing the community in its achievements. Plus going by the scientific parameters much like kurds, pathan and Irish the ethnic identification would be better... what are your opinions... ?
I strongly believe tribal word to be removed and replaced by ethnic word ! -- Sheokhanda ( talk) 17:50, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I notice someone has added some modern estimates of Jat populations: "Sukhbir Singh estimates that the population of Hindu Jats, numbered at 2,210,945 in the 1931 census, rose to about 7,738,308 by 1988, whereas Muslim Jatts, numbered at 3,287,875 in 1931, would have risen to about 13,151,500 in 1988. The total population of Jatts was given as 8,406,375 in 1931, and estimated to have been about 31,066,253 in 1988."
This is truly nonsense. If Sukhbir Singh had rounded off the figures I would have no quarrel - but what does "about 7,738,308" mean? Wouldn't a rough estimate such as, say, "about 7,740,000", be more plausible? Why not say "about 31,066,000 (or, better, "about 31,070,000) in 1988" instead of the misleadingly precise guesstimate of "about 31,066,253"? Sincerely, John Hill ( talk) 11:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Memoirs on the History, Folk-Lore, and Distribution of the Races of the ... By Henry M. Elliot--Page 136
Henry M Elliot was one of the best British historians he said that Jats were once called Abars,which is connected with Abiria in India,generally supposed to be the land of Abhiri of Ahirs. Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Also according to famous jat historian Hukam Singh Pawar Jats are of Yadava origin. Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
A manual of universal history and chronology By Horace Hayman Wilson-page-26
Joon,History of Jats says:-
Pathan, Balouch , Ahirs ,Rajputs, Gujjars , Brahmans belonged to Yayati stock and were Jat by origin. Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Forming an identity: a social history of the Jats-page-172
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=vnS2TcamL4msrAfN7-XlDQ&ct=result&id=sBBuAAAAMAAJ&dq=ahirs+of+sikar&q=pathans Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
History of the Jats-page -29
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=Qni2TdjoOJHsrQe0opHLDQ&ct=result&id=fe88AAAAMAAJ&dq=ahir+yayati&q=ahir+ Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Book origin of Rajputs
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=USmHTd2MDMXVrQfy3_0s&ct=result&id=BTxuAAAAMAAJ&dq=abhiras+jodhpur&q=gujar Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Can someone explain, what the worth of this section is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sikh-history ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Hindu Jats have been given Other Backward Class in Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Gujarat, Uttrakhand and Delhi. [1] [2] But had been excluded from the list in Jammu and Kashmir and Haryana.Jats specially from Haryana wants OBS satus given to them as they feel that they are lagging behind other castes like Yadavs, Sainis and the prosperous Dalits. [3]
Population geography: a journal of the Association of Population Geographers of India, Volume 10--page 7
The corresponding figure for Pakistan is 21% (22916047 out of 110000000). Amongst themselves the Rajputs (30913520) account for the biggest chunk of 44%, followed by Jats 24%(18, 153,51 3), Ahirs 24%(17083813) and Gujars 8% (5329278).
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumitkachroo ( talk • contribs) 07:36, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I have just removed a copyright violation inserted by User:Abstruce. Please do not copy and paste into articles content from copyrighted works without first consulting the relevant Wikipedia policies. I could have possibly amended the statement but could only see it in snippet view and therefore have no context to work off.
The violation was made (apparently) worse by the appending of a sub-clause stating that the statement somehow proved a connection with the Yadu. Unless the cited source actually supports the appended clause then such wording constitutes original research, which is also not permitted. Again, it is impossible to be sure based on a snippet view but it certainly had the appearance of OR.
Finally, please do not accuse me of adopting a POV stance with regard to this article, as was done in the edit summary by that user. Honestly, I have absolutely no vested interest one way or the other in any article relating to Indian subjects. - Sitush ( talk) 09:30, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
My APOLOGY to SITUSH, and the ADMINISTRATOR of the page: I apologise to Sitush, and the Administrator of the page about this incident. I admit that due to my lack of knowledge of Wikipedia policy or guideline, I caused this issue here. Honestly speaking, I was interested in this topic about the connection with Yadu, and Lord Krishna, for quite a while, and was seriously looking to contribute in a good manner here; and I was very excited actually, when I located this reference < History of the Jats, Jaitly Painting (sic) Press, foreword, 1968 (Original from the University of Michigan) !!! But, I did breached a important guideline and caused this issue here. When I edited the respective section on the main article, I thought you guyz would be happy to see this, really this is what I was thinking! But, I never realised what I have done untill it was noticed and explained on my user talk page by Sitush, and when I did a scrutiny of it all, I realised that Sitush was perfectly right! What I should have done to avoid breaching the guidelines was then suggested by Qwyrxian for which I am really grateful to him, and I really am; as Qwyrxian has commented on my user talk page, "We can, sometimes, provide short selected quotations of copyrighted texts, but only if we provide a proper reference and make sure we aren't using any more than absolutely necessary." Now, I will take care of the facts stated by Sitush and Qwyrxian in future! I am the one who made an edit that I shouldn't have for which I am really sorry, and accusing Sitush was wrong. I was thinking about this for the past few days, and I have learnt the lesson now, and I assure you guyz that I will be more careful in future while editing a page. Sitush has been a gentleman throughout, and have also appreciated me after I edited pages following his suggestions, and I am looking forward to follow them; and I do believe that I will evolve as a better user hereafter! Thanks for being so polite towards me. Abstruce ( talk) 17:09, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
We should enlarge the display pic and make changes to it. There by given representation to more jats who have brought name and fame to the community. We can take a clue from the British people, pashtun people, Irish people page. There have included alot of people in the display pic. Since Wikipedia has become a spot for young children to learn about their past. Adding of the great personalities will help them build confidence and identity.-- Sheokhand ( talk) 06:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Hey, bit new to editing Wikipedia, so I apologize if I'm not following the correct guidelines. I've been seeing the description of Jats change virtually every month. I was unaware of the whole Indo-Scythian background for some time, but did a lot of outside research (meaning not Wikipedia), and it's pretty clear that Jats are descended from Indo-Scythians and Indo-Aryans. Recent DNA studies have also helped to prove this, and an Indian researcher had attempted to visit Ukraine to study the origin of Jats, but was prevented from doing so (I believe from funding denial and ridicule). I've very much found Indians very loathe to call themselves anything but Indo-Aryan - some kind of weird pride in the word Aryan. I was slave to this for some time too. Doing a very quick run-down search on Google Scholar left me with a slew of articles supporting the Indo-Scythian viewpoint, some of which had not been listed on Wikipedia:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/lw5v58gm16723786/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k3r48177278105w0/
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/gb-2005-6-8-p10.pdf
One article I did not link mentions the Rajputs as descendants of Indo-Scythians - Rajputs and Jats are of the same ethnic stock (I'm a descendant of Pritviraj Chauhan on my mother's side - he was a Rajput); the split between the two was in political/social disagreements (one primarily being the use of sati pratha). There are more links that I did not post. Also, Jatland (a website by and for Jats) has this (although, I do understand that Jatland isn't considered an academic source, it does have some solid stuff there - I found that graph on the site it was referencing, although I can't remember how - it took some searching):
http://www.jatland.com/home/Indo-Scythian_origin
And doing some searching through JSTOR found me an article titled "Notes on the Origin of the 'Lunar' and 'Solar' Aryan Tribes, and on the 'Rājput' Clans." It also supports the Indo-Scythian descent claims. My cousin has also done much research into this, and Romila Thapar's "A History of India" also supports this claim. There are also un-linked references listed at the bottom of the Jat page under "Further reading." Why is this being pushed under the rug?
So hopefully I might have convinced you somewhat of the ridiculousness of the absolute disregard of most evidence pointing to the Indo-Scythian descent. It's mentioned MUCH throughout the article itself, but people keep removing it from the introduction. I haven't removed the Indo-Aryan references from the introduction on Jats, because that would be false. Jats are a mixture of both groups - virtually no race/ethnic group is "pure" or unmixed (except the descendants of the very, very first homo sapiens, whom I'm sure mixed with someone along the thousands of years). This is what I had been editing it to say. Only once did I see this correctly shown - it seems to be an edit war going on between Indo-Scythian origin supporters and Indo-Aryan origin supporters. Clearly, both are wrong, and both are right. It isn't one or the other, it's both. I've seen it devoid of Indo-Aryan references, and I've seen it devoid of Indo-Scythian references (like now). I'm trying to present an unbiased, most-supported viewpoint for the article. Others don't seem to be in-tune with this idea.
Any cooperation on this matter would be much appreciated.
PR-0927 ( talk) 01:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
guys, this is not the place to discuss your family tree, your fear of death (or lack thereof), or your ideas on race in general. See WP:TALK. If you want to help improve the article, try to focus on that, otherwise please continue this discussion on a Jat internet forum or some similar venue. -- dab (𒁳) 20:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
As this section is supposed to be about "Indo-Scythian descent", let me address this. The Indo-Scythians as a group disappear around the 4th century. The Jats as a group first appear around the 11th century. There is a gap of about 600 years (30 generations, that's 2^30 = one billion possible ancestry paths). This is exacly like the Albanians being descended from the Illyrians. It is impossibe to assert anything on this. There is some speculation, by a handful of 19th century scholars, that the tribal name Jat may ultimately be of Indo-Scythian origin. This is duly discussed under "name", as a speculative possibility. The end. -- dab (𒁳) 13:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't say "it's junk". I love etymology, and the idea that the tribal name of the Getae or else the Xanthii should have made it into the Punjab is intriguing. It's just that you need to understand that there are any number of ways how the Jats may have ended up with their name. Check out the Yakuts, clearly a Turkic people, and nevertheless they ended up with the name Sakha, i.e. "Scythians". These things happen. This doesn't mean the Yakuts, or the Jats, "are" Scythians, it just means they took their name from them at some point during the early medieval period. -- dab (𒁳) 15:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 22:13, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I have not read this entire thread yet but, Abstruce, the link you provided @ 22:13 6 June returns a 404 error (page not found) here. I went to the domain homepage and from that suspect that it is not a reliable source. Anyone can write anything on a website. We need websites that can be trusted or, better still, printed information. I will try to look at the rest of this section tomorrow. If you see no comment from me here then feel free to ping me. - Sitush ( talk) 23:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Sir, I want You to have a look at the content first, I think it can help a lot. And, if the content makes great sense to You, then we can continue the discussion about it. I understand what You have stated above, and I will try to cite a better and more reliable source, regarding the information presented, that shall be fine to me . But, I have spent a lot of time in the past few days; so atleast for once, please do have a look. The way the author has been working on to highlight the origins of various communities of North-Western India, seems quite effective. The best thing I liked about the content that the author has been very much neutral while presenting the facts, which is good, and quite rare; You will surely realise this after going through the content. But please atleast for once, do have a look. Thanks! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 08:50, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Jatts are descendants of shudra outcastes, they were treated very bad in the medieval time by Brahmins and khashtaryas. Due to their conversion to islam in pakistan and sikhism in india they emancipated from discrimination. Before 1500 AD ,there were no appreciable agriculture in punjab, the jatts before that period were mostly mirasi, snake charmers, camel and goat herdrers. During the invasion of india in the 11th century, Mahmud of Ghazni enslaved many of them and sent back to afghanistan and iran, the descendants of of those slave JAtts are called Zott in middle east, gypsies in europe who are all low class criminal thieves. In afghanistan these enslave jatts have retained their jatt identity and speak jatki language, they are typical mirasi like people who sell their boys to pashtun warlords for bacha bazi, they are pimp for their wives, snake charmers, toilet cleaners, and circul people. These jatts in middle east and afghanistan prove that jatts were shudra outcastes before their conversion to islam and sikhism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.51.200.28 ( talk) 09:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Oldest mention of Jatts are in these books chachnama and Al-Birunis India. In Chachnama it states the Jats were degraded from royalty by the brahmans and were forbidden to wear silk, wrap turbans, ride horses and carry swords. All these were royal privileges which the brahman rajas took away from the Jats and downgraded them into sudras. In Al-Birunis India a brahman terms the Jats as sudras. This article states the Jats only rose to importance at decline of moghul empire which is incorrect as Jats had risen to power in Sind and were dethroned by the brahman rajas and reduced to sudra status until the Arabs came and whos armies the Jats were first to join to fight raja dahir. Chachnama states the religion of Jats was buddhism. We can not ignore recorded history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.176.155 ( talk) 02:58, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
There is no difference in Buddism and hinduism, Budhism is just an offshoot of hinduism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.51.200.28 ( talk) 09:56, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
jats claim of being yadav comletly false and vague.jats comes under shudra while yadav is noble kahatriya chandravanshi lineage.jats is well known scythian tribe while yadav indo-aryan.yadu comes around 1500 BC while jats after 100 AD in India.jats want to improve their social status making this type of vague claims. kasahtriya while jats are shudra.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/lw5v58gm16723786/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k3r48177278105w0/
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/gb-2005-6-8-p10.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancient indian historian ( talk • contribs) 08:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
I have moved the above contributors comment from the article temporarily while we discuss the issue. I'll need to get hold of the sources cited. The content removed was
Above claims is comletely vague from false material.jats is well recognised Scythian Tribe while yadava is Aryan tribe.jats comes in india after 100 AD while Yadav has presence before 1500 BC .moreover jats comes under shudra while yadavs noble kahatriya chandravanshi lineage.jats makes these vague and false claims to improve their social status. [1]
Please do not take this the wrong way. I have no opinion on the matter but, in any event, the contribution would need rephrasing. - Sitush ( talk) 11:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
sitush@ hey bro there is whole lot of confusion bout jat being kshatriya or shudra,but there is a definate proff of yadav-jat connection,coz both hv many thing in common....some are.... 1..gotra 2..area where these people...either they live in same village or near by villages and states...eg,,haryana,delhi,uttar pradesh,rajasthan.. 3..both are farming caste and are involved in animal husbandry and agriculture(INFACT THESE TWO CASTE ARE THE TWO BIGGEST FARMING CASTE and are landloards)... 4...both are brave and are known for bravery..look at the no of people in defence,police,mostly it would be a yadav or jat.. 5..both hv same culture,be it marriege reforms,widow remariage.. so jats are kshatriyas as yadav are... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
sitush@ no problem bro,to err is human....i mean i was utterly surprised by the whole mess in the wiki of jats,yadavs and gujjars claming them shudra is not appropriate coz they are not at all shudra rather are kshatriya caste...there hv been numerous dynasty under yadavs,jats and gujjar rules in the past....these three caste hv there hukka(SORT OF CIGAR)pani(WATER) together..and these caste are clean caste and hv a huge reputation in society,nd currently they r over taking the tyranny of bhramins.... so i wud request you to remove this shudra stuff from these caste(YADAVS,JATS and GUJJARS)...coz shudra are use for sc/st (the caste which were denied of water,land,education and religion) by so called bhramins...thnkz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
What is this has to do with Jat tribe? 38.101.155.250 ( talk) 15:30, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
situish@@ so what accordin to ur ken,jats ,yadavs and gujjars are???\ are they kshatriya or shudras??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amitkumar900 ( talk • contribs) 10:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
We seem to be going round in circles with this article. Using references that make direct references to the Rig Veda and could be interepreted either way is not Encyclopeadic. using WP:Weasel words in sentence is also not encyclopaedic. Evertime an honest effort is made to clean up this article again someone comes along and tries to turn it into a propaganda piece. Why is it all the India articles suffer from this? I have tried toedit many articles like this, including Kamboj, Ramgarhia, Khatri, Labana etc and every few month people turn up to try and turn it into a propaganda piece. I request experience editors here be wary of this and adhere to strict guidlines. Sitush and other editors have done a sterling job so far. Thanks-- SH 17:34, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
I propose that Life and culture of Jat people be merged into Jat people. I think that the content in the life and cultre article is mostly a fork (and possibly a non-consensual one) from Jat people. Some of the content is a direct, unattributed copy and paste & as such is contrary to policy. The remainder could easily fit into this article without adding undue weight or length to it. - Sitush ( talk) 06:51, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks -- SH 07:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
James Tod (1782–1835) is rather outdated scholarship for us. Itsmejudith ( talk) 20:57, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I just added this proposed merge to Wikipedia:Proposed mergers; if we don't get more responses from there, we may need to run an RfC if we don't have a clear consensus either way. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:00, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
To all the Respected Admins, Moderators, Authorities and fellow Users:
I have some serious doubts here, and I respectfully would like to have some answers here:
I would be grateful to You if anyone of You could Kindly tell me that why the line added by me: "Some studies suggests that the Jats may share common Iranic ancestral roots with the Slavic people." has been removed?! To add this line, I provided a reference that can be cited online, the url is: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php . This reference can be cited online any time, if any user wants to! I believe that the research-work on the article on the Iran Chamber Society is a result of a number of references taken from the research-work of not just one historian, but many. Before You answer My query, I would deeply request You to have a look at the article, and the references used. The website has not represented it's own views, but instead, it's just a place where all this reaseach-work has been put together, so are the historians that much unreliable?! If we have a look at the article we would realise that how solid is the stuff it's got! (I realise that Jats are Aryan-Scythian people, but We all would agree one thing that both the Aryans and Scythians are Indo-Iranian peoples, despite of the controvery that whether their original homeland is super-Ancient India or Iran; We believe that Jats are a mixture of Scythian population that entered India into the Aryan population of India that was settled long before they entered India!) So, why was the information removed even after providing a reference that contains research-work of not just one, but many historians; and which can be cited online! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Kindly tell me that why is the reference added to this section in favour of the political dominace in a particular region has been removed, despite of the fact that it can also be cited online (Google books), and not just that, it also had an ISBN number; so why goes against this edit?! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
The Jats are assumed to be a product of the Scythian population into the Indo-Aryan population of India, that was settled in India long before Scythians (200 BC) entered India; so there seems every possiblity of a few clans being mentioned in an ancient Scripture?! (I am not discussing the origin of the community or it's name, just that the communities are formed of human population that's being on earth for several millenniums, and communities are more or less a combination of clans that come together to form an identity as a community, so there presence can be older than the community!) And I also provided a reference for the add! Can You please explain (in brief) that why it's that much unacceptable?! I can understand that there might be a significant reason for the revert, but can You please share that with Me, here on the talk page, it may assist other Users as well. Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I know that this article was rewritten due to some issues that I don't want to get involved in, but I do know that this article was rewritten. Kindly tell me that is there any such rule/ policy/ guideline that suggests that if there was a stuff was on the article (for a significant period of time), and later on it was not added (or say removed) to the article while being re-written by the person who has complete Authority of the article; and that only because of this reason no User can add it again, even if He/She cites a reference that can be cited online?! Please tell that is it enough a jusitification to say that it was removed from the article earlier; that much explaination only, for the revert?! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
A line was written as: "Some specific clans of Jat people are classified as Other Backward Castes in some states, e.g.Jats of Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Muslim Jats in Gujarat." I made a minor change to it as: "Though, being recognised as a forward class, some specific clans of Jat people are classified as Other Backward Castes in some states, e.g.Jats of Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Jats of Kutch|Muslim Jats in Gujarat."
I did so because the formar line was giving kind of an incomplete impression, I thought that by adding some words before it, that were add, it looks a bit better, and somewhat complete that way. There is a line before it, "Jat people are considered a forward class in all the states of India with those of Haryana or Punjab origin" , which does not make much of a sense and also lack citaion, a citaion needed tag has also been added to this, and if remains uncited this way, it would be removed soon anyways! So, My motive was just to give these lines a better meaningful sense here, that much only!
I believe that My queries are within the scope of healthy debate, or atleast deserves a bit of explaination; as proper references were cited. Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks You guyz for Your valuable time, I really appreciate that You put that much of effort to give me answers and suggestions. Thanks! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 07:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
The line mentioned as connecton between yadava and jats is based on completely misleading sources.No relaible sources support this line.only jat historians claim Yadava connection for jats for their social propaganda which has no relevance for wikipedia. Bill clinton history ( talk) 12:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
I think the page could benefit by having more information between the connections of the Jatts and rajputs. Should mention how in the Punjab especial these two groups married in between one another and I know that some Jatt tribes in the Punjab have rajputt ancestry. 174.1.80.242 ( talk) 18:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
( talk)@ please dont come up with such nebulous connection...rajputs never married with jats coz they considered them as shudras.....please come up with source before makin such vague comments...and dont divert the topic....thnks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.38.45 ( talk) 08:29, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Qwyrxian@ i m just mentioning five best of links mentioning them as shudras though in every of them its been clearly mentioned...since i cant edit the page coz its been protected so i think lines which can be brought in the wiki page can be....JATS ARE CLASSIFIED UNDER SHUDRA VARNA IN INDIAN CASTE SYSTEM.....WE CAN PUT FIVE OF THE LINKS IN THE CITATION ...I HOPE YOU GUYS BRING THE RIGHT PICTURE IN TO BEING........
I HOPE MY WORK IS APPRECIATED AND FINDS ITS PLACE IN THE WIKI..... SITUSH AND MV@ GUYS PLEASE WORK ON THIS ...... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.38.45 ( talk) 08:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
now why would some one pay attention out here,have limited themselves with in few of articles...this is what you call unjustice... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.224.2.29 ( talk) 14:08, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
So, I'm going to add the Census and the Gendering Caste books to the varna status section. Note that, of course, I won't be removing the other information, since there are multiple reliable opinions on this subject. Thank you for your work in collecting those sources. Qwyrxian ( talk) 12:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
jats are real kshatriya caste of india,it is the most dominating caste of northern india...jats are kulak with sagacious leadership qualities.They are known for there bravery and pride,its very unfortunate to see the work put in wikipedia as they have not been label as kshatriyas. i m jooting down links which clearly mention them as kshatriyas [1] [2] [3]
so one and for all sake remove the baloney mentioned in the wiki add them as upper kshatriyas.....thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 12:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
i dont think to be a kshatriya you need to be mentioned in books and tp have reference,jats are kshatriya and we dont need any f**in reference to prove we are....do whatever pleases u guys,we dont give shit to your writing...— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
hi there is an item with the same description in Spanish and in English only need this: es:Jat
put this: es:Jat in the English article ESPK ( talk) 10:44, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There is a sentence which says "Furthermore, ethnological scrutinies have restricted the Jats, Rajputs, and Khatris to be the true representatives of the Vedic Aryans."
This is not correct. The source says "Ethnographic investigations" - ethnography and ethnology are two different things. So, this should be edited accordingly. Also, it should be mentioned who says this - the sources are early 20th century British writer. A lot has changed in anthropology since 20th century. 183.82.69.95 ( talk) 16:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
there is conflict between the caste system according to the official 1891 census of India jat people come under military and aristocratic group the below link can tell you the story :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_Census_of_India so please also mention about this in the 'varna states' section of jat people page . Asncheeka ( talk) 16:39, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
The other three varnas are Brahmans - priests, Kshatriya - those with governing functions, Vaishya - agriculturalists, cattle rearers and traders. According to this ancient text, the Shudra perform functions of serving the other three varna. Varna system developed during Vedic period and it was based on work and not the caste on somebody’s opinion or recording.
The three castes, Brahmanas and the next (Kshatriyas and Vaishyas), were produced from the face, the arms and the thighs of the Lord; and for their support was born the fourth caste from His feet. Jats have not born from any of these but mythologically born from Shiva’s Locks. Mythologically and by their functions we can not call them Shudras.
Here members forget that we have discussed this issue many times. In Archive 4 we discussed about their status as mentioned by Deva Samhita. This clearly proves that the Jats are the earliest kshatriyas.
Deva Samhitā is a collection of Sanskrit hymns by Gorakh Sinha during the early medieval period. Deva Samhitā propounded the theory of Origin of Jats from Shiva's Locks. Devasamhita records an account of the Origin of the Jats in the form of discussion between Shiva and Parvati expressed in shloka (verses). Pārvatī asks Shiva, O Lord Bhutesha, knower of all religions, kindly narrate about the birth and exploits of the Jat race. Who is their father? Who is their mother? Which race are they? When were they born? Having read the mind of Parvati, Shiva said, "O mother of the world, I may tell you honestly the origin and exploits of the Jats about whom none else has so far revealed anything to you. Some relevant verses are given below.
There is mention of Jats in Deva Samhitā in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia. When Pārvatī asks Shiva about the origin of Jats, their antiquity and characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in Sanskrit shloka-15 as under:
Meaning - "They are symbol of sacrifice, bravery and industry. They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyā, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth." Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita as under:
Meaning – "In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha's daughter gani's womb originated the caste of Jats." Pārvatī asks, in the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' about the origin and exploits of the Jats, whom none else has so far revealed, Shiva tells Parvati that:
Meaning - "The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals, lest it should injure and impair their false pride of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you."
The last verse clearly indicates the forces behind not calling Jats as Kshatriyas. Jats at present are 70 percent agriculturists and then in Government Jobs like Army and Education. Very definition of Shudras is - Shudra perform functions of serving the other three varna. Which category of Jats is serving other varnas ? Can any body clear it ? Sudras have generally not adopted cultivation but worked mostly as landless labours or in other services. As farmers Jats are included in vaishyas and not Sudras. As army people they are Kshatriyas. As Government servants they they perform the old vedic function of Brahmanas. They do no work which is just to serve other Varnas. By no criteria they can be included in Sudras. The members mentioning them Shudra are biased and their motive needs to be watched by the Admins.
By the way Varna System is a Vedic Concept and should not find place on Wikipedia. The famous Historian about Jat history considers them out of preview of the Varna system.
As such Varna System section should be deleted from Jat people article. burdak ( talk) 04:53, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the Demographics section i want you to edit and add the state of Uttar Pradesh where jats are present and very dominant in areas from farming to politics, government services. I am not happy by seeing the missing name of Uttar Pradesh from the list of Jats demographics. Please put it there so that we can become more united. If you want any verification on this just visit the districts like Meerut, Ghaziabad, Bijnor, Muzzafarnagar, Shamli, bulandsaher, Baghpat, Moradabad. One and only one Indian Jat Primeminister Late shri Chaudhary charan singh hails from western UP.
122.172.1.212 ( talk) 21:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
It's time to clean up this article as well. It is abysmally written; the illustrations are shabby as well. I will start by adding some old "ethnographic" prints and remove the collage in place (that has a warning template) or at least remove it for now. I'll probably add some references as well. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
jatts were the rulers of punjab before british rule the britishers took over punjab from :::::: Maharaja Ranjit Singh who was a jatt sikh! and in the artilce jat people in wikepedia only its mentioned that sidhu and brars were rulers of faridkot and bathinda who were also jatt sikhs decendents of bhatti rajputs who are kshatryas of chandravanshi origin! u can see the article bhatti ,or sidhu in wikepedia only in which itz mentioned that sidhu and brars were kshatryas who later came to be known as jatts! and in this article jat people itz also mentioned that britishers designated jatts as martial race most of the soldiers in the british army were jatts! and jatt calans like bhullar, grewal, dhillon, kambojas or kamboj, gill , kang sandhuetc, were the landloards and lambadars in punjab so u cannot say that they were not elite ! jatts like Bhagat Singh who was a revounalist and udham singh who killed Reginald Dyer all the britishers were afarid from them. the childern of sikh jatts attended best elite school like The Doon School,St. George's College, Mussoorie,Woodstock School,Sherwood College.. u may have understood that jatts were elite and royal people! see these links of Wikipedia only which show how their position during britishers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh(MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhatti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faridkot_State
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheema
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatt_Sikh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas(see modern decent)
(IF U CONSIDER WIKIPEDIA A RELIABLE SOURCE THEN ALL THESE RESOURCES ARE RELIABLE SOURCES) some other resources http://books.google.co.in/books?id=3DHDKnRG2XEC&pg=PR12&dq=jatts+during+british+raj+in+punjab&hl=en&ei=rACfTuC8OcH3rQeYi5W2CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFcQ6AE
u might have understood now.
I just used revision deletion on some stuff posted by an IP that was grossly insulting/degrading. Some of you have already read it and know what it said. Technically speaking, I am WP:INVOLVED on this article, so shouldn't take admin actions, but exceptions are generally made for actions of this type. If anyone thinks I acted improperly, let me know and I'll get an uninvolved admin to review it. Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
in the section varna status i want the line "some authors suggest jatts were shudras" to be removed n only the line saying that jatts were rajputs to stay there. cause of the following reasons.. yes!! they were kshatriyas before they adopted different religions like islam n sikhism,cause they belived these religions to be better than hinduissim..they vere never shudras as they had control over large acers of land in north india and they are very brare and martial race..so get your facts right before u call them shudras ! these days some shudras in haryana who want to uplift their position falsely call themselves as jats but they are not real jatts so know the facts before u comment.
and u might have heard this saying "guns,glory and guts are only made for jatts" so dont ever mess with jatts ! otherwise the will kick your ass!!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
see in Wikipedia only its written that some of jatt castes belong to bhatti rajputs n were rulers of jasalmer. in this wikepedia only it is mentioned that jatts had vast acres of land ..n were rulers of their region so how can u say that they are shudras? by listening to only some people who are jealous of jatts because they adopted different religions other than hinduism..by the way they jatts are not hindus so cast system means nothing to them! and jatts dint had to struggle for any status they were notable landlord n zamindars in north,check the british records.jatts are lineage of rajputs!they are dominant caste in their regions u can check the textbook of sociology ncert (cbse) class xii and there are thousands of links on internet,just search google! and in Wikipedia only its written that shudras were labourers ,and kshatriyas were rulers and landlords n its mentioned that jatts were rulers in north and they are big landlords in punjab and are economically influential so therefore they are kshatriyas!! jatts control all the land and polits in punjab so ther is no dout about their kshatrya status and btw u live in japan an comment about indian affairs by reading some unreliable biased articles! u dont know anything, and (threat redacted Phil Bridger ( talk) 19:46, 15 October 2011 (UTC)) i can paste 100s of links like u have pasted but i am listing only some
http://www.sikhcastes.faithweb.com/
http://www.jatland.com/home/Kshatriya
http://www.tititudorancea.com/z/kshatriya.htm (IN THIS ARTICLE READ THE PART UNDER THE HEADING Chandravanshi!in this siddhu caste is denoted as a jatt kshatrya caste of chandravanshi origin and siddhus are now jatts!and many other jatt casts are included here !
the most supream caste of jatts like siddhu/sidhu and brars are direct decedents of bhattis a true kshatryas of chadravanshi origin!
therefore jatts are not shudras shudras are like chamars,churras,majvi etc...
NOTE- dont ever get confused between the term jat and jatt ,jat itself means the word varna in hindi ,it means a community like any community but it does not denote a caste!and jatis means different communitie in hindi but JATT is a name of a caste and it is a supreme caste so u might have been got confused between the two terms ..for clarfication see below
http://adaniel.tripod.com/confusion.htm
jatts were always rulers of states some of the jatt sikh maharajas were ,Maharaja Harinder Singh Brar of Faridkot,Maharaja Ranjit Singh who extended the punjab state upto afghanistan by defeating the brave pathans! and Maharaja Bhupinder singh of Patiala ,and there are many more they were heads of the state wherever they stayed so how can they be shudras?? the links below will show u!
http://www.maharajasurajmalfoundation.com/jatkingdom.html
http://www.j4jat.com/famous_jat.php
http://indianhistory-ace.blogspot.com/2011/06/jat-sikh-rajas.html
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/heritage/Maharajas%20of%20Punjab/faridkot/faridkot.htm
http://spsharmajammu.blogspot.com/2010/08/faridkot-aircrafts.html
http://www.singhsabha.com/maharaja_ranjit_singh.htm
http://punjabijanta.com/lok-virsa/history-of-faridkot/
From the above links wee can see that jatts were royal rulers! but they hated brahmins cause they were double faced hypocrites ! and jatts ebjoyed meat and drank alchol which was not allowed in hindusim so some of the rajputs also became jatts like the sidhus and brars and in punjab brahmin was never considered high caste they were considered shudras so some brahmins called jatts shudras u see its both ways jatts(kshatryas who denied brahmins superiority) call brahmin shudras cause they are cowards and have no land they were hypocrites just thugging people on the name of religion! and the society agreed with the jatts!!brahmins were just religious adviser of kshatryas and jatts they were never superior than them! and today also jatts are the most superior caste in India they study in best school of india and aborad ,they get highest ranks in military,police,and politics they all are from good royal families! and u cannot comment about internal affairs of India by just reading some article u yoursel have to be in the society to learn about the society someday come and visit Punjab an u will come to know! In India Seats in elections for mp(member of parliament) and mlas(member of legislative assemblies are reserved for scheduled cast(low caste or shudras) in punajb also but jatts do not contest from these seats ,only churas and majbhais are elected from reserved seats ! therefore it is clear that jatts are not schedule caste! get it!
jatts are full of pride their pride is everything to them! they never bow in front of any one! so they were never ever shudras cause they simply cannot be suppressed ! they are very brave and courageous! wheras shudras are weak and have no land,they are black ,small in height ! but in contrary jatts are strong , courageous, white(fair) tall in height handsome posses a large amount of land have highest honors in military and control politics!so therefore jatts and shudras are very different freom each other jatts are superior than shudras! jatts lead a life full of pride and honor they live life king size ,,they own luxry cars,bungalows and vast lands in punjab andoutside ,they are born to lead! they have everything from big guns to small rolex watches! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.94.250.139 ( talk) 19:29, 15 October 2011 (UTC) ( Wiki00756 ( talk) 09:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC))
Alright, I'm trying to read through some of your sources...let me comment on them as I go through. Please note that I am reading specifically the pages you linked to, and surrounding context as necessary; if you wanted to point me to a different section, you'll need to provide page numbers:
Then you've got 7 other websites; they're all blogs or other self-published sources. Please read WP:RS, which tells you what the guidelines are for source son Wikipedia.
So, to sum up, you provided one source (the Indian journal of applied linguistics) that may be reliable and usable, but I need to see more of it to be clear. As I said, please read WP:RS, and come back with actual sources that can be used in a Wikipedia article if you want to further push this point. Qwyrxian ( talk) 02:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
first of all they all are reliable resources otherwise your resources are also not reliable ,your resources are published by some racist hindus and no resource on the iternet is reliable anybody can write stupid crap here ..different writers have different opions n u dint read what i wrote about jatts why u need resources n i why caunt buy the book n read rather than asking for the page number ...why dount check the indian govt records? n r u trying to say that prime minister of india is a dalit! ? n my links clearly show that they were landowners so therefore they were not shudras! first u should clear your basics first u need to understand who are shudras .shudras have no caste they are also called outcastes and they also dont have any sub clans wheras jatt is a community comprising of different castes it has sub castes like gill,sidhu,bhullar dhillon. n i told u u r geting confused between jat and jatt! u have not bothered to see the real thing i belive either u are just a dumbass or just a confused personality! in this jat article by Wikipedia only first its written that they are kshatryas ,then its written that some suggested that they were shudras but could not prove! get it! and i am not writing this to prove anything to u everybody knows whats the real position of jatts ! i just wrote this cause by callaing jatts shudras u have greatly insulted them but cause u were ignorant i forgave u but if anybody else would have read this bugged ! u should just mind your own business! n u dint see that they were rulers and maharajas u can search for it any where !shudras were as i told u called churas majbhais and chamars, they were serveants of jatts! jatts are true kshatryas! or even superior than kshatryas now! u cant get right information from the internet for understanding something u just cannot depend on net and how many times iv told u that jatts are given highest ranks in the army and politics! they have won Victoria crosses in the britain army which were only given to a high caste not shudras!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_Regiment
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-4/bajwa.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamar
http://www.ambedkartimes.com/page6.html ^^^(READ THIS WHOLE IF U WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH THIS SHOWS THAT JATTS EXPOLITED DALITS AND JATTS AREHIGH CASTE AND IN PUNJAB BRAHMIN IS ALSO CONSIDERED LOW CASTE! and btw this varna system was abolished centuries ago!it was only prevelant where hindusi was prevelant and in punajab hindusm was not so prevelant..jatts consider brahmins and all oother hindus as weak and hypocites at the end brahmins always came to jatts for help ! jatts never listend to brahmins so they called them lower than themeselves but jatts called brahmins lower and it shows today because today brahmins in india have nothin nobody cares about them !many social reformers also aggred with this .and many times the hypocracy of brahmins has been exposed ..and today jatts are the supreme caste! get your facts clear!whatever is ur name qwyxrian!cause its commonsense people with so much of pride, valor,bravery cannot be suppressed or called low caste but some hypocrite can only spread false rumors on their back but not on their face! this varna para should be erased only because they are not hindus n they never were hindus they had their own culture and identified with Persian cultureand names chande in due course of history so in ancient texts the names were something els! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
all articles are written by some or the other writer only>>and iv given so many links of the books and journals above sctually this is so commonsence that jatts are kshatryas that thers is no need of mentioning it in books if u call jatts shudras its like calling a white man black even if u can see he is white. and u dint answer my questions above?and editorial sources are not always right and what reliable sources have u mentioned i would like to know ?? and u also need to show some reliable resources and btw so many people saying above tht jatts are not shudras are not mad knowledge does not need to mention resources n i dont need to mention resources for u u find them urself n please stay out of these matters !still i would mention somemore links here for the people;
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=DfZBc1Gy9g4C&pg=PA193&dq=jatt&hl=en&ei=5ZCdTqmkOYrmrAeOmfygCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=one(READ PAGE NO 194 AND ABOVE) http://books.google.co.in/books?id=zcxQYgEACAAJ&dq=jatt&hl=en&ei=35KdTujiDcL3rQeftYDRCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwADgK(BUY AND READ THIS BOOK IF U WANT TO)
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=rCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=jatt&dq=jatt&hl=en&ei=upOdTpjvHobZrQeHmeirCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAzgo(we cannot see all the page of the book so u would have to buy it)
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-VKgAAAAMAAJ&dq=jatt&q=jat#search_anchor(READ THESE EXTRACTS FROM THE BOOK)
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=DIN0AAAAMAAJ&dq=jatt&q=jat#search_anchor
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=aeKWQzesOc4C&dq=jatt&q=jatt#v=onepage&q=jat&f=false
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4hdmdWR3XDoC&dq=jatt&q=jatt#v=onepage&q=jat&f=false( read these pages patiently)
and how many times iv told u that jatts were rulers i gave u the names of the maharajas also now nobody will make a fake maharaja!
and in the wikepedias artilce jat people only its written that they are arrogant,full of pride,valour,strength and courage and kshatryas! so its simple that people who are so brave and arrogant just cannot be inferior by calling them i dont even want to use the word u have insulted them!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 14:19, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
yes i know in the article its mentioned that jatts are kshatryas but i only wanted to tell that people who read or thought jatts as shudras were mislead or were biased or they were purpously calling them this even if they knew they are kshatryas ...so it would be good on the part of wikeoedia if it deleates the word shudras or i would recommend the deletion or the whole para of varna status as this caste system has been abloshied in hindusim and jatts are no hindus they are either sikhs or follow islam so this system does not apply to them and these all resources are from google books.. .how do u define a reliable source?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
some Bhramans believe that jats were ancient shudras
The question is about Jats not Jatts , Jatts are not hindus they are Sikhs,and they dont have vernas. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
125.21.182.12 (
talk)
10:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
I have just removed the reference to Encyclopedia Britannica's statement that Jats are a "peasant caste" as this is obviously causing people to become upset and also, the EB is not a primarary source. Now, much of the third paragraph is made up of "statistics" culled from the EB. This is unsatisfactory - is there anyone out there who can discover and give reference to the source(s) of this information, please? In the meantime, I will point to the EB as the source used as this is no longer clear since I removed the earlier reference. Sincerely, John Hill ( talk) 22:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Can't we write ethnic group rather than tribal group as many jats have objected it to be offensive and trivializing the community in its achievements. Plus going by the scientific parameters much like kurds, pathan and Irish the ethnic identification would be better... what are your opinions... ?
I strongly believe tribal word to be removed and replaced by ethnic word ! -- Sheokhanda ( talk) 17:50, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I notice someone has added some modern estimates of Jat populations: "Sukhbir Singh estimates that the population of Hindu Jats, numbered at 2,210,945 in the 1931 census, rose to about 7,738,308 by 1988, whereas Muslim Jatts, numbered at 3,287,875 in 1931, would have risen to about 13,151,500 in 1988. The total population of Jatts was given as 8,406,375 in 1931, and estimated to have been about 31,066,253 in 1988."
This is truly nonsense. If Sukhbir Singh had rounded off the figures I would have no quarrel - but what does "about 7,738,308" mean? Wouldn't a rough estimate such as, say, "about 7,740,000", be more plausible? Why not say "about 31,066,000 (or, better, "about 31,070,000) in 1988" instead of the misleadingly precise guesstimate of "about 31,066,253"? Sincerely, John Hill ( talk) 11:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Memoirs on the History, Folk-Lore, and Distribution of the Races of the ... By Henry M. Elliot--Page 136
Henry M Elliot was one of the best British historians he said that Jats were once called Abars,which is connected with Abiria in India,generally supposed to be the land of Abhiri of Ahirs. Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Also according to famous jat historian Hukam Singh Pawar Jats are of Yadava origin. Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
A manual of universal history and chronology By Horace Hayman Wilson-page-26
Joon,History of Jats says:-
Pathan, Balouch , Ahirs ,Rajputs, Gujjars , Brahmans belonged to Yayati stock and were Jat by origin. Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Forming an identity: a social history of the Jats-page-172
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=vnS2TcamL4msrAfN7-XlDQ&ct=result&id=sBBuAAAAMAAJ&dq=ahirs+of+sikar&q=pathans Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
History of the Jats-page -29
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=Qni2TdjoOJHsrQe0opHLDQ&ct=result&id=fe88AAAAMAAJ&dq=ahir+yayati&q=ahir+ Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Book origin of Rajputs
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=USmHTd2MDMXVrQfy3_0s&ct=result&id=BTxuAAAAMAAJ&dq=abhiras+jodhpur&q=gujar Sumitkachroo ( talk) 07:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Can someone explain, what the worth of this section is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sikh-history ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Hindu Jats have been given Other Backward Class in Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Gujarat, Uttrakhand and Delhi. [1] [2] But had been excluded from the list in Jammu and Kashmir and Haryana.Jats specially from Haryana wants OBS satus given to them as they feel that they are lagging behind other castes like Yadavs, Sainis and the prosperous Dalits. [3]
Population geography: a journal of the Association of Population Geographers of India, Volume 10--page 7
The corresponding figure for Pakistan is 21% (22916047 out of 110000000). Amongst themselves the Rajputs (30913520) account for the biggest chunk of 44%, followed by Jats 24%(18, 153,51 3), Ahirs 24%(17083813) and Gujars 8% (5329278).
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumitkachroo ( talk • contribs) 07:36, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I have just removed a copyright violation inserted by User:Abstruce. Please do not copy and paste into articles content from copyrighted works without first consulting the relevant Wikipedia policies. I could have possibly amended the statement but could only see it in snippet view and therefore have no context to work off.
The violation was made (apparently) worse by the appending of a sub-clause stating that the statement somehow proved a connection with the Yadu. Unless the cited source actually supports the appended clause then such wording constitutes original research, which is also not permitted. Again, it is impossible to be sure based on a snippet view but it certainly had the appearance of OR.
Finally, please do not accuse me of adopting a POV stance with regard to this article, as was done in the edit summary by that user. Honestly, I have absolutely no vested interest one way or the other in any article relating to Indian subjects. - Sitush ( talk) 09:30, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
My APOLOGY to SITUSH, and the ADMINISTRATOR of the page: I apologise to Sitush, and the Administrator of the page about this incident. I admit that due to my lack of knowledge of Wikipedia policy or guideline, I caused this issue here. Honestly speaking, I was interested in this topic about the connection with Yadu, and Lord Krishna, for quite a while, and was seriously looking to contribute in a good manner here; and I was very excited actually, when I located this reference < History of the Jats, Jaitly Painting (sic) Press, foreword, 1968 (Original from the University of Michigan) !!! But, I did breached a important guideline and caused this issue here. When I edited the respective section on the main article, I thought you guyz would be happy to see this, really this is what I was thinking! But, I never realised what I have done untill it was noticed and explained on my user talk page by Sitush, and when I did a scrutiny of it all, I realised that Sitush was perfectly right! What I should have done to avoid breaching the guidelines was then suggested by Qwyrxian for which I am really grateful to him, and I really am; as Qwyrxian has commented on my user talk page, "We can, sometimes, provide short selected quotations of copyrighted texts, but only if we provide a proper reference and make sure we aren't using any more than absolutely necessary." Now, I will take care of the facts stated by Sitush and Qwyrxian in future! I am the one who made an edit that I shouldn't have for which I am really sorry, and accusing Sitush was wrong. I was thinking about this for the past few days, and I have learnt the lesson now, and I assure you guyz that I will be more careful in future while editing a page. Sitush has been a gentleman throughout, and have also appreciated me after I edited pages following his suggestions, and I am looking forward to follow them; and I do believe that I will evolve as a better user hereafter! Thanks for being so polite towards me. Abstruce ( talk) 17:09, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
We should enlarge the display pic and make changes to it. There by given representation to more jats who have brought name and fame to the community. We can take a clue from the British people, pashtun people, Irish people page. There have included alot of people in the display pic. Since Wikipedia has become a spot for young children to learn about their past. Adding of the great personalities will help them build confidence and identity.-- Sheokhand ( talk) 06:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Hey, bit new to editing Wikipedia, so I apologize if I'm not following the correct guidelines. I've been seeing the description of Jats change virtually every month. I was unaware of the whole Indo-Scythian background for some time, but did a lot of outside research (meaning not Wikipedia), and it's pretty clear that Jats are descended from Indo-Scythians and Indo-Aryans. Recent DNA studies have also helped to prove this, and an Indian researcher had attempted to visit Ukraine to study the origin of Jats, but was prevented from doing so (I believe from funding denial and ridicule). I've very much found Indians very loathe to call themselves anything but Indo-Aryan - some kind of weird pride in the word Aryan. I was slave to this for some time too. Doing a very quick run-down search on Google Scholar left me with a slew of articles supporting the Indo-Scythian viewpoint, some of which had not been listed on Wikipedia:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/lw5v58gm16723786/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k3r48177278105w0/
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/gb-2005-6-8-p10.pdf
One article I did not link mentions the Rajputs as descendants of Indo-Scythians - Rajputs and Jats are of the same ethnic stock (I'm a descendant of Pritviraj Chauhan on my mother's side - he was a Rajput); the split between the two was in political/social disagreements (one primarily being the use of sati pratha). There are more links that I did not post. Also, Jatland (a website by and for Jats) has this (although, I do understand that Jatland isn't considered an academic source, it does have some solid stuff there - I found that graph on the site it was referencing, although I can't remember how - it took some searching):
http://www.jatland.com/home/Indo-Scythian_origin
And doing some searching through JSTOR found me an article titled "Notes on the Origin of the 'Lunar' and 'Solar' Aryan Tribes, and on the 'Rājput' Clans." It also supports the Indo-Scythian descent claims. My cousin has also done much research into this, and Romila Thapar's "A History of India" also supports this claim. There are also un-linked references listed at the bottom of the Jat page under "Further reading." Why is this being pushed under the rug?
So hopefully I might have convinced you somewhat of the ridiculousness of the absolute disregard of most evidence pointing to the Indo-Scythian descent. It's mentioned MUCH throughout the article itself, but people keep removing it from the introduction. I haven't removed the Indo-Aryan references from the introduction on Jats, because that would be false. Jats are a mixture of both groups - virtually no race/ethnic group is "pure" or unmixed (except the descendants of the very, very first homo sapiens, whom I'm sure mixed with someone along the thousands of years). This is what I had been editing it to say. Only once did I see this correctly shown - it seems to be an edit war going on between Indo-Scythian origin supporters and Indo-Aryan origin supporters. Clearly, both are wrong, and both are right. It isn't one or the other, it's both. I've seen it devoid of Indo-Aryan references, and I've seen it devoid of Indo-Scythian references (like now). I'm trying to present an unbiased, most-supported viewpoint for the article. Others don't seem to be in-tune with this idea.
Any cooperation on this matter would be much appreciated.
PR-0927 ( talk) 01:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
guys, this is not the place to discuss your family tree, your fear of death (or lack thereof), or your ideas on race in general. See WP:TALK. If you want to help improve the article, try to focus on that, otherwise please continue this discussion on a Jat internet forum or some similar venue. -- dab (𒁳) 20:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
As this section is supposed to be about "Indo-Scythian descent", let me address this. The Indo-Scythians as a group disappear around the 4th century. The Jats as a group first appear around the 11th century. There is a gap of about 600 years (30 generations, that's 2^30 = one billion possible ancestry paths). This is exacly like the Albanians being descended from the Illyrians. It is impossibe to assert anything on this. There is some speculation, by a handful of 19th century scholars, that the tribal name Jat may ultimately be of Indo-Scythian origin. This is duly discussed under "name", as a speculative possibility. The end. -- dab (𒁳) 13:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't say "it's junk". I love etymology, and the idea that the tribal name of the Getae or else the Xanthii should have made it into the Punjab is intriguing. It's just that you need to understand that there are any number of ways how the Jats may have ended up with their name. Check out the Yakuts, clearly a Turkic people, and nevertheless they ended up with the name Sakha, i.e. "Scythians". These things happen. This doesn't mean the Yakuts, or the Jats, "are" Scythians, it just means they took their name from them at some point during the early medieval period. -- dab (𒁳) 15:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 22:13, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I have not read this entire thread yet but, Abstruce, the link you provided @ 22:13 6 June returns a 404 error (page not found) here. I went to the domain homepage and from that suspect that it is not a reliable source. Anyone can write anything on a website. We need websites that can be trusted or, better still, printed information. I will try to look at the rest of this section tomorrow. If you see no comment from me here then feel free to ping me. - Sitush ( talk) 23:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Sir, I want You to have a look at the content first, I think it can help a lot. And, if the content makes great sense to You, then we can continue the discussion about it. I understand what You have stated above, and I will try to cite a better and more reliable source, regarding the information presented, that shall be fine to me . But, I have spent a lot of time in the past few days; so atleast for once, please do have a look. The way the author has been working on to highlight the origins of various communities of North-Western India, seems quite effective. The best thing I liked about the content that the author has been very much neutral while presenting the facts, which is good, and quite rare; You will surely realise this after going through the content. But please atleast for once, do have a look. Thanks! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 08:50, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Jatts are descendants of shudra outcastes, they were treated very bad in the medieval time by Brahmins and khashtaryas. Due to their conversion to islam in pakistan and sikhism in india they emancipated from discrimination. Before 1500 AD ,there were no appreciable agriculture in punjab, the jatts before that period were mostly mirasi, snake charmers, camel and goat herdrers. During the invasion of india in the 11th century, Mahmud of Ghazni enslaved many of them and sent back to afghanistan and iran, the descendants of of those slave JAtts are called Zott in middle east, gypsies in europe who are all low class criminal thieves. In afghanistan these enslave jatts have retained their jatt identity and speak jatki language, they are typical mirasi like people who sell their boys to pashtun warlords for bacha bazi, they are pimp for their wives, snake charmers, toilet cleaners, and circul people. These jatts in middle east and afghanistan prove that jatts were shudra outcastes before their conversion to islam and sikhism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.51.200.28 ( talk) 09:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Oldest mention of Jatts are in these books chachnama and Al-Birunis India. In Chachnama it states the Jats were degraded from royalty by the brahmans and were forbidden to wear silk, wrap turbans, ride horses and carry swords. All these were royal privileges which the brahman rajas took away from the Jats and downgraded them into sudras. In Al-Birunis India a brahman terms the Jats as sudras. This article states the Jats only rose to importance at decline of moghul empire which is incorrect as Jats had risen to power in Sind and were dethroned by the brahman rajas and reduced to sudra status until the Arabs came and whos armies the Jats were first to join to fight raja dahir. Chachnama states the religion of Jats was buddhism. We can not ignore recorded history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.176.155 ( talk) 02:58, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
There is no difference in Buddism and hinduism, Budhism is just an offshoot of hinduism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.51.200.28 ( talk) 09:56, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
jats claim of being yadav comletly false and vague.jats comes under shudra while yadav is noble kahatriya chandravanshi lineage.jats is well known scythian tribe while yadav indo-aryan.yadu comes around 1500 BC while jats after 100 AD in India.jats want to improve their social status making this type of vague claims. kasahtriya while jats are shudra.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/lw5v58gm16723786/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k3r48177278105w0/
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/gb-2005-6-8-p10.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancient indian historian ( talk • contribs) 08:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
I have moved the above contributors comment from the article temporarily while we discuss the issue. I'll need to get hold of the sources cited. The content removed was
Above claims is comletely vague from false material.jats is well recognised Scythian Tribe while yadava is Aryan tribe.jats comes in india after 100 AD while Yadav has presence before 1500 BC .moreover jats comes under shudra while yadavs noble kahatriya chandravanshi lineage.jats makes these vague and false claims to improve their social status. [1]
Please do not take this the wrong way. I have no opinion on the matter but, in any event, the contribution would need rephrasing. - Sitush ( talk) 11:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
sitush@ hey bro there is whole lot of confusion bout jat being kshatriya or shudra,but there is a definate proff of yadav-jat connection,coz both hv many thing in common....some are.... 1..gotra 2..area where these people...either they live in same village or near by villages and states...eg,,haryana,delhi,uttar pradesh,rajasthan.. 3..both are farming caste and are involved in animal husbandry and agriculture(INFACT THESE TWO CASTE ARE THE TWO BIGGEST FARMING CASTE and are landloards)... 4...both are brave and are known for bravery..look at the no of people in defence,police,mostly it would be a yadav or jat.. 5..both hv same culture,be it marriege reforms,widow remariage.. so jats are kshatriyas as yadav are... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
sitush@ no problem bro,to err is human....i mean i was utterly surprised by the whole mess in the wiki of jats,yadavs and gujjars claming them shudra is not appropriate coz they are not at all shudra rather are kshatriya caste...there hv been numerous dynasty under yadavs,jats and gujjar rules in the past....these three caste hv there hukka(SORT OF CIGAR)pani(WATER) together..and these caste are clean caste and hv a huge reputation in society,nd currently they r over taking the tyranny of bhramins.... so i wud request you to remove this shudra stuff from these caste(YADAVS,JATS and GUJJARS)...coz shudra are use for sc/st (the caste which were denied of water,land,education and religion) by so called bhramins...thnkz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
What is this has to do with Jat tribe? 38.101.155.250 ( talk) 15:30, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
situish@@ so what accordin to ur ken,jats ,yadavs and gujjars are???\ are they kshatriya or shudras??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amitkumar900 ( talk • contribs) 10:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
We seem to be going round in circles with this article. Using references that make direct references to the Rig Veda and could be interepreted either way is not Encyclopeadic. using WP:Weasel words in sentence is also not encyclopaedic. Evertime an honest effort is made to clean up this article again someone comes along and tries to turn it into a propaganda piece. Why is it all the India articles suffer from this? I have tried toedit many articles like this, including Kamboj, Ramgarhia, Khatri, Labana etc and every few month people turn up to try and turn it into a propaganda piece. I request experience editors here be wary of this and adhere to strict guidlines. Sitush and other editors have done a sterling job so far. Thanks-- SH 17:34, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
I propose that Life and culture of Jat people be merged into Jat people. I think that the content in the life and cultre article is mostly a fork (and possibly a non-consensual one) from Jat people. Some of the content is a direct, unattributed copy and paste & as such is contrary to policy. The remainder could easily fit into this article without adding undue weight or length to it. - Sitush ( talk) 06:51, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks -- SH 07:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
James Tod (1782–1835) is rather outdated scholarship for us. Itsmejudith ( talk) 20:57, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I just added this proposed merge to Wikipedia:Proposed mergers; if we don't get more responses from there, we may need to run an RfC if we don't have a clear consensus either way. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:00, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
To all the Respected Admins, Moderators, Authorities and fellow Users:
I have some serious doubts here, and I respectfully would like to have some answers here:
I would be grateful to You if anyone of You could Kindly tell me that why the line added by me: "Some studies suggests that the Jats may share common Iranic ancestral roots with the Slavic people." has been removed?! To add this line, I provided a reference that can be cited online, the url is: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php . This reference can be cited online any time, if any user wants to! I believe that the research-work on the article on the Iran Chamber Society is a result of a number of references taken from the research-work of not just one historian, but many. Before You answer My query, I would deeply request You to have a look at the article, and the references used. The website has not represented it's own views, but instead, it's just a place where all this reaseach-work has been put together, so are the historians that much unreliable?! If we have a look at the article we would realise that how solid is the stuff it's got! (I realise that Jats are Aryan-Scythian people, but We all would agree one thing that both the Aryans and Scythians are Indo-Iranian peoples, despite of the controvery that whether their original homeland is super-Ancient India or Iran; We believe that Jats are a mixture of Scythian population that entered India into the Aryan population of India that was settled long before they entered India!) So, why was the information removed even after providing a reference that contains research-work of not just one, but many historians; and which can be cited online! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Kindly tell me that why is the reference added to this section in favour of the political dominace in a particular region has been removed, despite of the fact that it can also be cited online (Google books), and not just that, it also had an ISBN number; so why goes against this edit?! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
The Jats are assumed to be a product of the Scythian population into the Indo-Aryan population of India, that was settled in India long before Scythians (200 BC) entered India; so there seems every possiblity of a few clans being mentioned in an ancient Scripture?! (I am not discussing the origin of the community or it's name, just that the communities are formed of human population that's being on earth for several millenniums, and communities are more or less a combination of clans that come together to form an identity as a community, so there presence can be older than the community!) And I also provided a reference for the add! Can You please explain (in brief) that why it's that much unacceptable?! I can understand that there might be a significant reason for the revert, but can You please share that with Me, here on the talk page, it may assist other Users as well. Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I know that this article was rewritten due to some issues that I don't want to get involved in, but I do know that this article was rewritten. Kindly tell me that is there any such rule/ policy/ guideline that suggests that if there was a stuff was on the article (for a significant period of time), and later on it was not added (or say removed) to the article while being re-written by the person who has complete Authority of the article; and that only because of this reason no User can add it again, even if He/She cites a reference that can be cited online?! Please tell that is it enough a jusitification to say that it was removed from the article earlier; that much explaination only, for the revert?! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
A line was written as: "Some specific clans of Jat people are classified as Other Backward Castes in some states, e.g.Jats of Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Muslim Jats in Gujarat." I made a minor change to it as: "Though, being recognised as a forward class, some specific clans of Jat people are classified as Other Backward Castes in some states, e.g.Jats of Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Jats of Kutch|Muslim Jats in Gujarat."
I did so because the formar line was giving kind of an incomplete impression, I thought that by adding some words before it, that were add, it looks a bit better, and somewhat complete that way. There is a line before it, "Jat people are considered a forward class in all the states of India with those of Haryana or Punjab origin" , which does not make much of a sense and also lack citaion, a citaion needed tag has also been added to this, and if remains uncited this way, it would be removed soon anyways! So, My motive was just to give these lines a better meaningful sense here, that much only!
I believe that My queries are within the scope of healthy debate, or atleast deserves a bit of explaination; as proper references were cited. Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 17:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks You guyz for Your valuable time, I really appreciate that You put that much of effort to give me answers and suggestions. Thanks! Sincerely: Abstruce ( talk) 07:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
The line mentioned as connecton between yadava and jats is based on completely misleading sources.No relaible sources support this line.only jat historians claim Yadava connection for jats for their social propaganda which has no relevance for wikipedia. Bill clinton history ( talk) 12:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
I think the page could benefit by having more information between the connections of the Jatts and rajputs. Should mention how in the Punjab especial these two groups married in between one another and I know that some Jatt tribes in the Punjab have rajputt ancestry. 174.1.80.242 ( talk) 18:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
( talk)@ please dont come up with such nebulous connection...rajputs never married with jats coz they considered them as shudras.....please come up with source before makin such vague comments...and dont divert the topic....thnks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.38.45 ( talk) 08:29, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Qwyrxian@ i m just mentioning five best of links mentioning them as shudras though in every of them its been clearly mentioned...since i cant edit the page coz its been protected so i think lines which can be brought in the wiki page can be....JATS ARE CLASSIFIED UNDER SHUDRA VARNA IN INDIAN CASTE SYSTEM.....WE CAN PUT FIVE OF THE LINKS IN THE CITATION ...I HOPE YOU GUYS BRING THE RIGHT PICTURE IN TO BEING........
I HOPE MY WORK IS APPRECIATED AND FINDS ITS PLACE IN THE WIKI..... SITUSH AND MV@ GUYS PLEASE WORK ON THIS ...... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.38.45 ( talk) 08:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
now why would some one pay attention out here,have limited themselves with in few of articles...this is what you call unjustice... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.224.2.29 ( talk) 14:08, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
So, I'm going to add the Census and the Gendering Caste books to the varna status section. Note that, of course, I won't be removing the other information, since there are multiple reliable opinions on this subject. Thank you for your work in collecting those sources. Qwyrxian ( talk) 12:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
jats are real kshatriya caste of india,it is the most dominating caste of northern india...jats are kulak with sagacious leadership qualities.They are known for there bravery and pride,its very unfortunate to see the work put in wikipedia as they have not been label as kshatriyas. i m jooting down links which clearly mention them as kshatriyas [1] [2] [3]
so one and for all sake remove the baloney mentioned in the wiki add them as upper kshatriyas.....thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 12:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
i dont think to be a kshatriya you need to be mentioned in books and tp have reference,jats are kshatriya and we dont need any f**in reference to prove we are....do whatever pleases u guys,we dont give shit to your writing...— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
hi there is an item with the same description in Spanish and in English only need this: es:Jat
put this: es:Jat in the English article ESPK ( talk) 10:44, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There is a sentence which says "Furthermore, ethnological scrutinies have restricted the Jats, Rajputs, and Khatris to be the true representatives of the Vedic Aryans."
This is not correct. The source says "Ethnographic investigations" - ethnography and ethnology are two different things. So, this should be edited accordingly. Also, it should be mentioned who says this - the sources are early 20th century British writer. A lot has changed in anthropology since 20th century. 183.82.69.95 ( talk) 16:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
there is conflict between the caste system according to the official 1891 census of India jat people come under military and aristocratic group the below link can tell you the story :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_Census_of_India so please also mention about this in the 'varna states' section of jat people page . Asncheeka ( talk) 16:39, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
The other three varnas are Brahmans - priests, Kshatriya - those with governing functions, Vaishya - agriculturalists, cattle rearers and traders. According to this ancient text, the Shudra perform functions of serving the other three varna. Varna system developed during Vedic period and it was based on work and not the caste on somebody’s opinion or recording.
The three castes, Brahmanas and the next (Kshatriyas and Vaishyas), were produced from the face, the arms and the thighs of the Lord; and for their support was born the fourth caste from His feet. Jats have not born from any of these but mythologically born from Shiva’s Locks. Mythologically and by their functions we can not call them Shudras.
Here members forget that we have discussed this issue many times. In Archive 4 we discussed about their status as mentioned by Deva Samhita. This clearly proves that the Jats are the earliest kshatriyas.
Deva Samhitā is a collection of Sanskrit hymns by Gorakh Sinha during the early medieval period. Deva Samhitā propounded the theory of Origin of Jats from Shiva's Locks. Devasamhita records an account of the Origin of the Jats in the form of discussion between Shiva and Parvati expressed in shloka (verses). Pārvatī asks Shiva, O Lord Bhutesha, knower of all religions, kindly narrate about the birth and exploits of the Jat race. Who is their father? Who is their mother? Which race are they? When were they born? Having read the mind of Parvati, Shiva said, "O mother of the world, I may tell you honestly the origin and exploits of the Jats about whom none else has so far revealed anything to you. Some relevant verses are given below.
There is mention of Jats in Deva Samhitā in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia. When Pārvatī asks Shiva about the origin of Jats, their antiquity and characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in Sanskrit shloka-15 as under:
Meaning - "They are symbol of sacrifice, bravery and industry. They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyā, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth." Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita as under:
Meaning – "In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha's daughter gani's womb originated the caste of Jats." Pārvatī asks, in the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' about the origin and exploits of the Jats, whom none else has so far revealed, Shiva tells Parvati that:
Meaning - "The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals, lest it should injure and impair their false pride of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you."
The last verse clearly indicates the forces behind not calling Jats as Kshatriyas. Jats at present are 70 percent agriculturists and then in Government Jobs like Army and Education. Very definition of Shudras is - Shudra perform functions of serving the other three varna. Which category of Jats is serving other varnas ? Can any body clear it ? Sudras have generally not adopted cultivation but worked mostly as landless labours or in other services. As farmers Jats are included in vaishyas and not Sudras. As army people they are Kshatriyas. As Government servants they they perform the old vedic function of Brahmanas. They do no work which is just to serve other Varnas. By no criteria they can be included in Sudras. The members mentioning them Shudra are biased and their motive needs to be watched by the Admins.
By the way Varna System is a Vedic Concept and should not find place on Wikipedia. The famous Historian about Jat history considers them out of preview of the Varna system.
As such Varna System section should be deleted from Jat people article. burdak ( talk) 04:53, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the Demographics section i want you to edit and add the state of Uttar Pradesh where jats are present and very dominant in areas from farming to politics, government services. I am not happy by seeing the missing name of Uttar Pradesh from the list of Jats demographics. Please put it there so that we can become more united. If you want any verification on this just visit the districts like Meerut, Ghaziabad, Bijnor, Muzzafarnagar, Shamli, bulandsaher, Baghpat, Moradabad. One and only one Indian Jat Primeminister Late shri Chaudhary charan singh hails from western UP.
122.172.1.212 ( talk) 21:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
It's time to clean up this article as well. It is abysmally written; the illustrations are shabby as well. I will start by adding some old "ethnographic" prints and remove the collage in place (that has a warning template) or at least remove it for now. I'll probably add some references as well. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
jatts were the rulers of punjab before british rule the britishers took over punjab from :::::: Maharaja Ranjit Singh who was a jatt sikh! and in the artilce jat people in wikepedia only its mentioned that sidhu and brars were rulers of faridkot and bathinda who were also jatt sikhs decendents of bhatti rajputs who are kshatryas of chandravanshi origin! u can see the article bhatti ,or sidhu in wikepedia only in which itz mentioned that sidhu and brars were kshatryas who later came to be known as jatts! and in this article jat people itz also mentioned that britishers designated jatts as martial race most of the soldiers in the british army were jatts! and jatt calans like bhullar, grewal, dhillon, kambojas or kamboj, gill , kang sandhuetc, were the landloards and lambadars in punjab so u cannot say that they were not elite ! jatts like Bhagat Singh who was a revounalist and udham singh who killed Reginald Dyer all the britishers were afarid from them. the childern of sikh jatts attended best elite school like The Doon School,St. George's College, Mussoorie,Woodstock School,Sherwood College.. u may have understood that jatts were elite and royal people! see these links of Wikipedia only which show how their position during britishers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh(MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhatti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faridkot_State
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheema
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatt_Sikh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas(see modern decent)
(IF U CONSIDER WIKIPEDIA A RELIABLE SOURCE THEN ALL THESE RESOURCES ARE RELIABLE SOURCES) some other resources http://books.google.co.in/books?id=3DHDKnRG2XEC&pg=PR12&dq=jatts+during+british+raj+in+punjab&hl=en&ei=rACfTuC8OcH3rQeYi5W2CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFcQ6AE
u might have understood now.
I just used revision deletion on some stuff posted by an IP that was grossly insulting/degrading. Some of you have already read it and know what it said. Technically speaking, I am WP:INVOLVED on this article, so shouldn't take admin actions, but exceptions are generally made for actions of this type. If anyone thinks I acted improperly, let me know and I'll get an uninvolved admin to review it. Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
in the section varna status i want the line "some authors suggest jatts were shudras" to be removed n only the line saying that jatts were rajputs to stay there. cause of the following reasons.. yes!! they were kshatriyas before they adopted different religions like islam n sikhism,cause they belived these religions to be better than hinduissim..they vere never shudras as they had control over large acers of land in north india and they are very brare and martial race..so get your facts right before u call them shudras ! these days some shudras in haryana who want to uplift their position falsely call themselves as jats but they are not real jatts so know the facts before u comment.
and u might have heard this saying "guns,glory and guts are only made for jatts" so dont ever mess with jatts ! otherwise the will kick your ass!!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
see in Wikipedia only its written that some of jatt castes belong to bhatti rajputs n were rulers of jasalmer. in this wikepedia only it is mentioned that jatts had vast acres of land ..n were rulers of their region so how can u say that they are shudras? by listening to only some people who are jealous of jatts because they adopted different religions other than hinduism..by the way they jatts are not hindus so cast system means nothing to them! and jatts dint had to struggle for any status they were notable landlord n zamindars in north,check the british records.jatts are lineage of rajputs!they are dominant caste in their regions u can check the textbook of sociology ncert (cbse) class xii and there are thousands of links on internet,just search google! and in Wikipedia only its written that shudras were labourers ,and kshatriyas were rulers and landlords n its mentioned that jatts were rulers in north and they are big landlords in punjab and are economically influential so therefore they are kshatriyas!! jatts control all the land and polits in punjab so ther is no dout about their kshatrya status and btw u live in japan an comment about indian affairs by reading some unreliable biased articles! u dont know anything, and (threat redacted Phil Bridger ( talk) 19:46, 15 October 2011 (UTC)) i can paste 100s of links like u have pasted but i am listing only some
http://www.sikhcastes.faithweb.com/
http://www.jatland.com/home/Kshatriya
http://www.tititudorancea.com/z/kshatriya.htm (IN THIS ARTICLE READ THE PART UNDER THE HEADING Chandravanshi!in this siddhu caste is denoted as a jatt kshatrya caste of chandravanshi origin and siddhus are now jatts!and many other jatt casts are included here !
the most supream caste of jatts like siddhu/sidhu and brars are direct decedents of bhattis a true kshatryas of chadravanshi origin!
therefore jatts are not shudras shudras are like chamars,churras,majvi etc...
NOTE- dont ever get confused between the term jat and jatt ,jat itself means the word varna in hindi ,it means a community like any community but it does not denote a caste!and jatis means different communitie in hindi but JATT is a name of a caste and it is a supreme caste so u might have been got confused between the two terms ..for clarfication see below
http://adaniel.tripod.com/confusion.htm
jatts were always rulers of states some of the jatt sikh maharajas were ,Maharaja Harinder Singh Brar of Faridkot,Maharaja Ranjit Singh who extended the punjab state upto afghanistan by defeating the brave pathans! and Maharaja Bhupinder singh of Patiala ,and there are many more they were heads of the state wherever they stayed so how can they be shudras?? the links below will show u!
http://www.maharajasurajmalfoundation.com/jatkingdom.html
http://www.j4jat.com/famous_jat.php
http://indianhistory-ace.blogspot.com/2011/06/jat-sikh-rajas.html
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/heritage/Maharajas%20of%20Punjab/faridkot/faridkot.htm
http://spsharmajammu.blogspot.com/2010/08/faridkot-aircrafts.html
http://www.singhsabha.com/maharaja_ranjit_singh.htm
http://punjabijanta.com/lok-virsa/history-of-faridkot/
From the above links wee can see that jatts were royal rulers! but they hated brahmins cause they were double faced hypocrites ! and jatts ebjoyed meat and drank alchol which was not allowed in hindusim so some of the rajputs also became jatts like the sidhus and brars and in punjab brahmin was never considered high caste they were considered shudras so some brahmins called jatts shudras u see its both ways jatts(kshatryas who denied brahmins superiority) call brahmin shudras cause they are cowards and have no land they were hypocrites just thugging people on the name of religion! and the society agreed with the jatts!!brahmins were just religious adviser of kshatryas and jatts they were never superior than them! and today also jatts are the most superior caste in India they study in best school of india and aborad ,they get highest ranks in military,police,and politics they all are from good royal families! and u cannot comment about internal affairs of India by just reading some article u yoursel have to be in the society to learn about the society someday come and visit Punjab an u will come to know! In India Seats in elections for mp(member of parliament) and mlas(member of legislative assemblies are reserved for scheduled cast(low caste or shudras) in punajb also but jatts do not contest from these seats ,only churas and majbhais are elected from reserved seats ! therefore it is clear that jatts are not schedule caste! get it!
jatts are full of pride their pride is everything to them! they never bow in front of any one! so they were never ever shudras cause they simply cannot be suppressed ! they are very brave and courageous! wheras shudras are weak and have no land,they are black ,small in height ! but in contrary jatts are strong , courageous, white(fair) tall in height handsome posses a large amount of land have highest honors in military and control politics!so therefore jatts and shudras are very different freom each other jatts are superior than shudras! jatts lead a life full of pride and honor they live life king size ,,they own luxry cars,bungalows and vast lands in punjab andoutside ,they are born to lead! they have everything from big guns to small rolex watches! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.94.250.139 ( talk) 19:29, 15 October 2011 (UTC) ( Wiki00756 ( talk) 09:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC))
Alright, I'm trying to read through some of your sources...let me comment on them as I go through. Please note that I am reading specifically the pages you linked to, and surrounding context as necessary; if you wanted to point me to a different section, you'll need to provide page numbers:
Then you've got 7 other websites; they're all blogs or other self-published sources. Please read WP:RS, which tells you what the guidelines are for source son Wikipedia.
So, to sum up, you provided one source (the Indian journal of applied linguistics) that may be reliable and usable, but I need to see more of it to be clear. As I said, please read WP:RS, and come back with actual sources that can be used in a Wikipedia article if you want to further push this point. Qwyrxian ( talk) 02:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
first of all they all are reliable resources otherwise your resources are also not reliable ,your resources are published by some racist hindus and no resource on the iternet is reliable anybody can write stupid crap here ..different writers have different opions n u dint read what i wrote about jatts why u need resources n i why caunt buy the book n read rather than asking for the page number ...why dount check the indian govt records? n r u trying to say that prime minister of india is a dalit! ? n my links clearly show that they were landowners so therefore they were not shudras! first u should clear your basics first u need to understand who are shudras .shudras have no caste they are also called outcastes and they also dont have any sub clans wheras jatt is a community comprising of different castes it has sub castes like gill,sidhu,bhullar dhillon. n i told u u r geting confused between jat and jatt! u have not bothered to see the real thing i belive either u are just a dumbass or just a confused personality! in this jat article by Wikipedia only first its written that they are kshatryas ,then its written that some suggested that they were shudras but could not prove! get it! and i am not writing this to prove anything to u everybody knows whats the real position of jatts ! i just wrote this cause by callaing jatts shudras u have greatly insulted them but cause u were ignorant i forgave u but if anybody else would have read this bugged ! u should just mind your own business! n u dint see that they were rulers and maharajas u can search for it any where !shudras were as i told u called churas majbhais and chamars, they were serveants of jatts! jatts are true kshatryas! or even superior than kshatryas now! u cant get right information from the internet for understanding something u just cannot depend on net and how many times iv told u that jatts are given highest ranks in the army and politics! they have won Victoria crosses in the britain army which were only given to a high caste not shudras!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_Regiment
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-4/bajwa.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamar
http://www.ambedkartimes.com/page6.html ^^^(READ THIS WHOLE IF U WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH THIS SHOWS THAT JATTS EXPOLITED DALITS AND JATTS AREHIGH CASTE AND IN PUNJAB BRAHMIN IS ALSO CONSIDERED LOW CASTE! and btw this varna system was abolished centuries ago!it was only prevelant where hindusi was prevelant and in punajab hindusm was not so prevelant..jatts consider brahmins and all oother hindus as weak and hypocites at the end brahmins always came to jatts for help ! jatts never listend to brahmins so they called them lower than themeselves but jatts called brahmins lower and it shows today because today brahmins in india have nothin nobody cares about them !many social reformers also aggred with this .and many times the hypocracy of brahmins has been exposed ..and today jatts are the supreme caste! get your facts clear!whatever is ur name qwyxrian!cause its commonsense people with so much of pride, valor,bravery cannot be suppressed or called low caste but some hypocrite can only spread false rumors on their back but not on their face! this varna para should be erased only because they are not hindus n they never were hindus they had their own culture and identified with Persian cultureand names chande in due course of history so in ancient texts the names were something els! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
all articles are written by some or the other writer only>>and iv given so many links of the books and journals above sctually this is so commonsence that jatts are kshatryas that thers is no need of mentioning it in books if u call jatts shudras its like calling a white man black even if u can see he is white. and u dint answer my questions above?and editorial sources are not always right and what reliable sources have u mentioned i would like to know ?? and u also need to show some reliable resources and btw so many people saying above tht jatts are not shudras are not mad knowledge does not need to mention resources n i dont need to mention resources for u u find them urself n please stay out of these matters !still i would mention somemore links here for the people;
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=DfZBc1Gy9g4C&pg=PA193&dq=jatt&hl=en&ei=5ZCdTqmkOYrmrAeOmfygCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=one(READ PAGE NO 194 AND ABOVE) http://books.google.co.in/books?id=zcxQYgEACAAJ&dq=jatt&hl=en&ei=35KdTujiDcL3rQeftYDRCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwADgK(BUY AND READ THIS BOOK IF U WANT TO)
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=rCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=jatt&dq=jatt&hl=en&ei=upOdTpjvHobZrQeHmeirCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAzgo(we cannot see all the page of the book so u would have to buy it)
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-VKgAAAAMAAJ&dq=jatt&q=jat#search_anchor(READ THESE EXTRACTS FROM THE BOOK)
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=DIN0AAAAMAAJ&dq=jatt&q=jat#search_anchor
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=aeKWQzesOc4C&dq=jatt&q=jatt#v=onepage&q=jat&f=false
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4hdmdWR3XDoC&dq=jatt&q=jatt#v=onepage&q=jat&f=false( read these pages patiently)
and how many times iv told u that jatts were rulers i gave u the names of the maharajas also now nobody will make a fake maharaja!
and in the wikepedias artilce jat people only its written that they are arrogant,full of pride,valour,strength and courage and kshatryas! so its simple that people who are so brave and arrogant just cannot be inferior by calling them i dont even want to use the word u have insulted them!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 14:19, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
yes i know in the article its mentioned that jatts are kshatryas but i only wanted to tell that people who read or thought jatts as shudras were mislead or were biased or they were purpously calling them this even if they knew they are kshatryas ...so it would be good on the part of wikeoedia if it deleates the word shudras or i would recommend the deletion or the whole para of varna status as this caste system has been abloshied in hindusim and jatts are no hindus they are either sikhs or follow islam so this system does not apply to them and these all resources are from google books.. .how do u define a reliable source?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki00756 ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)