![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archival note: Frequent top-posting on Talk:Jane Roberts left the order of threads in a mess. Lacking the patience to refactor 164kb, I just picked a point in the middle and archived everything above it. The result is that this Archive 1 contains threads begun from 2003 through, July 2006, with some exceptions. If someone wants to undo my work and refactor the whole thing properly, feel free. JamesMLane t c 08:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It isn't necessary to cast doubt on everything that Jane Roberts said; thus it isn't necessary to say that Jane Roberts "claimed" to be skeptical of Seth's origins. The qualifying comment at the top of the article is enough to qualify the entire article without peppering the text with qualifying words such as "claimed". Furthermore, the "claimed" text that Max Mangel keeps inserting is awkward.
I question whether the Criticism section is appropriate for this article at all, since the entire article is preceded by the qualifying comment in brackets; but if it is going to stay, the wording has to be impartial and free of emotional overtones, such as derision.
Furthermore, there is no reason why there can't be an answer to criticism in the Criticism section.
I have added comments at the bottom of this page.-- Caleb Murdock 05:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Any thoughts on adding a paragraph between the fifth and sixth paragraph (after "life and consciousness.") on the ideas presented in the Jane Robert's book, The Nature of Personal Reality? I read Jane Robert's books many years ago, and as far as I know, the ideas presented in The Nature of Personal Reality are unique. I think that any unique theory should be presented to readers for consideration. What do you think? Michele123 20:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Seth books are arguably one of the most original and profound series of books about reality ever written."
from the first paragraph. It doesn't seem NPOV to me. Andrewa 09:31, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"that she believed might be a part of herself"....
It's just not true. It looks like someone who didn't read any of her books wrote that (and that dosen't belive in channeling). F16 (I wasn't logged-in)
In fact, it is true that Jane Roberts was always conflicted about the phenomenon of channeling Seth. Apparently, she coined the term “channeling;” likening the experience to changing channels on a television set, she wrote that she “switched the channel” of her consciousness. In “The Nature of Personal Reality” she wrote: “For years I’ve been confused, trying to define Seth in the usual true-false world of facts. There he’s accepted as an independent spirit—a spirit guide by those with spiritualistic beliefs—or as some displaced portion of my own personality by the scientific community. I couldn’t accept either idea, at least not in undiluted form…. If I said, ‘Look, people, I don’t think Seth is a spirit IN THE WAY THAT YOU MEAN,’ then this was interpreted as an acknowledgement that Seth was ONLY a part of my personality.... The spirit guide may represent something far different than we think. The [spirit guide] idea can also be limiting if it always places revelatory knowledge outside of us, and tries to make literal some extraordinary phenomena that may be beyond such interpretation.” (p. viii).
It is also interesting to note that during the period Roberts and Butts began producing the Seth books (late 1960s), Helen Schucman and William Thetford, two respectable academic psychiatrists at Columbia University, began producing what would become "A Course in Miracles," which contains the same ideas as the Seth books, couched in a quasi-religious context.
-- sparkit 18:19, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I did some copy editing.
The Cayce paragraph, to me, doesn't fit in this article.
In reference to this discussion, I don't think Jane coined the term "channeling." That came later, by other people.
Should this really be under "metaphysics"? That category is in the philosophical sense - not the psychic sense.
There is a very interesting chapter in one seth-book I have been reading a few years ago. The German title was "Von der ewigen Gültigkeit der Seele". In this book he said that Jesus has not been nailed to the cross but another man, who suffered from insanity, not because he wanted to fullfill the jewish prophecy.
Indeed so. In this hardly insignificant detail, the Seth books are awkwardly incompatible with 'A Course In Miracles' (to which comparison is often made): 'Seth' claims that Jesus was not really crucified, while the 'Jesus ' of A Course In Miracles several times explicitly mentions 'His' experience of being crucified and the true significance of this historical event. They can't both be right...
A serious student of A Course in Miracles understands that the Course's words don't always mean what they say literally and really should not be taken that way. The Course should be taken metaphorically and the content behind the form has to be understood. The Course is not a newspaper and shouldn't be read that way. In fact, the Course's language is the biggest problem for most of its students. The Course is in no way scientific and is often poetic. It often refers to God having arms, hands, tears, and a Voice and doing very human things but the Course's content teaches something quite different: that He does not have a body and does not even know about us at all. Indeed, the Course is written on two very distinct levels: One of non-duality and the other of duality. The Jesus of the Course is not the Jesus of the Gospels: he does nothing in this world because this world does not exist, yet like Seth he does not deny this world. Jesus in the Course is language that we can accept and understand and that language is often the metaphoric language of myth, thus when he speaks of the Crucifiction he is NOT talking about a historical event. The form of the Course is often inconsistent but the content always is. So, yes, Seth may be quite correct about the historical Jesus. Who knows? For speculation is inhabiting the world of myth and myth is not literal.
What Seth actually 'says' (about the 'substitute')is:
"The 'substitute' was a personality SEEMINGLY deluded, but in his DELUSION he knew that each person is resurrected. He took it upon himself to become the symbol of this knowledge.... The man CALLED Christ was not crucified. In the overall drama however it made little difference what was FACT, in your terms, and what was not--for the greater reality transcends facts and creates them." [Session 674].
In her book Psychic Politics, Roberts discusses apparent discrepancies among psychics and their information. Her idea was that the material was interpreted according to the talents and beliefs of the individual receiving, and this included her own material.
Contradictions.
I believe an interpersonal look at the Seth work will show as it did to me, that the blatant contradictions present in the works, even having been noted by Robert Butts and Jane Roberts herself, are the product of taking Seth's assumptions; that all realities are possible and occurring along side ours in all possible "directions", stem from not considering that you can not say for sure that Seth has not taken his information from multiple realities, being that "he", as he says has access to all the possible scenarios. He doesn't mention though whether he may be misplacing where or from what strand of "reality" the information comes from. It then leaves the possibility that the material though often contradictory can be "channeled" or "remembered" from separate strands of reality.
The information is all very coincidental to Jane and Robert's situation at the time. All be it, Seth explains that All That Is, is pre-agreed upon. I can't say pre-destined because he/she makes it clear that it is not the case. Yet he says several times that reality is the product of all consciousness agreeing on what to label reality as.
A reader looking to Seth for answers is just as likely to find them lying drunk on the floor of some bathroom. One could also find them in almost any religious scripture from nearly any earthborn culture, as long as you ignore the labels these texts use. I believe you can derive the same benefit from Seth that you could from these other works if you ignore anything that seems related to actual history. In any religious manuscript the lessons are what people should focus on. The details of how one comes to illustrate these lessons are harmful.
I found the Seth 2, "channeling" to be the most beneficial. Short and sweet and to the point. ie: there is no point.
In the book "Seth Speaks", Seth described the Christ as a powerful psychic, a gifted individual capable of changing the course of world-events by his mere presence. In the same book, Seth maintained that when mankind is in great need, we (humankind), a gestalt consciousness en-masse, will bring forth from an individual such as Christ to help us with our world-problems. In biblical terms, Christ is stated as being the Son of Man, and also as the Son of God. Seth had stated that Christ had appeared before in our physical reality many times, and that Christ would also return but would not be known. Biblically, it is stated that Christ would return as a "thief in the night". -- Cheliro 22:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)cheliro
I reverted and edited some of the additional information in the Criticism section - the information added was POV sentences that were opposite of criticism, so it had no place there(as opposed to factual rebuttle of criticism). Also, sometimes we do need to use the word 'claimed,' as is the case when Roberts 'claimed' to be skeptical of her own channelling. We don't know what she actually thought, and frankly, I don't believe that she had any doubts as to the nature of her channellings. MaxMangel 03:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Skeptics miss the point whether Roberts was "faking" it or not. The meta-physical construct of reality she dictated has many similarities to recent theories now becoming commonplace. Instead of claiming Seth was fake, examine the material and see if it is testable. It is still a theory, but a very intriguing one. Robert's own passing seems to have meaning, where she has entered another reality that Seth describes quite thoroughly. There are similarities between Jung's Synchronicity and the Seth material, so it is not so far fetched what the theory describes. I was especially drawn to the descriptions about the nature of time. I have read many books about the subject, and none have gone into so much depth and detail as the Seth theory.
Perhaps if you cited a source for this sentence it might be worth including in the article: "Others, however, view the Seth Material as a religious text and therefore accept it as a matter of faith." Even if you do, I don't really so how it belongs in the criticism section. If it is some attempt at rebutting criticism, I don't really understand it. I'm absolutely sure that many people who follow the Seth material just blindly accept it on faith, like people often do with other texts of religious nature, but who cares.... MaxMangel 12:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's make something clear: only an unreasonable person would claim that Jane Roberts was a fraud. An easier argument can be made for "deluded" or "schizophrenic". The proof of the Seth Material is in the reading. I am now reading the Early Sessions and they unfold in a logical, completely believable manner. The Seth Material is brilliant and consistent from beginning to end; no one could have contrived it. IF it is true that Roberts was a fraud or otherwise deluded, then it is nonetheless true that she was a brilliant theorist and philospher. So let's drop this absurd discussion about fraud. Skeptics like Max take their skepticism beyond reasonable limits. -- Caleb Murdock 05:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
MaxMangel contacted the Mediation Cabal for help in resolving this dispute. I'm prepared to help do some of the mediation, so just a few notes:
Thanks, Grobertson 23:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that mediation is necessary. Max Mangel is a self-styled "skeptic" and atheist who apparently goes around to various articles on metaphysical subjects making changes, even though he knows little about the subjects. For example, he has admitted that he has never read any of the books by Jane Roberts, whereas I have read nine. I can't respect a person like that.
Mangel's only apparent concern is that the article not promote unproven phenomena. That's fine. However, I won't negotiate with him over the text since he knows nothing about the subject. In the last day, I tried to make changes to the article to reflect his skepticism.-- Caleb Murdock 02:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Everybody seems reasonably happy with the current article, which is brilliant, but it's worth looking at how we can make it better. How about:
Any other ideas?
Grobertson 13:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
(1) There is no point in negotiating with a person who knows nothing about the topic at hand and whose only true interest is to discredit it. As evidence of this I give you Mangel's first draft of the Criticism section in which he said that "the more likely explanation is that Jane Roberts was a fraud". Any person who has read the Material knows that isn't true.
(2) Regarding the Criticism section which I deleted, it has no place in this article. It reflects other people's opinions and does not inform the reader about Jane Roberts. The fact that channelling is a controversial phenomenon can be indicated in other ways.
(3) I agree that the disclaimer is awkward. I'm considering ways to remove it. -- Caleb Murdock 16:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I have read through the talk debate above. There are quite a few disagreements. I will talk about one first; 'Whether or not Jane Roberts' 'channelling' is fraudulent; deliberately fraudulent, or misguidedly, or otherwise.' Maybe it would be useful to find a published critic of the Seth Material, who has read at least one Seth/Roberts book, and has a fair idea what the Seth/Roberts the Seth Material contains or promotes. I can see how the authenticity of Roberts as a channel can be called into question, much like Edgar Cayce's work has been. For a sceptical viewpoint we need citations from critics, (Wikipedia rules); for a supportive viewpoint(of Seth's usefulness and validity) we need citations.
I have never read any of the Seth material (not yet). I have read about 7 books written about Edgar Cayce, that quote his readings, and attempt to analyse them in context. I believe in the guidance of a Divine Source. I believe Siddhartha Gotama Buddha was a great philosopher on emptiness. Nietzsche was a great iconoclast. My point is that all these statements need qualification. Some of the Wikipedia articles that cover controversial topics, like Edgar Cayce and List of pseudoscientific theories, seem to go to great lengths to present a balanced point of view on the subject matter. Being neutral, and using neutral language, may appear scientific, and clinical, and tidy, but I would argue that anything 'written' contains biases - the bias of the writer/communicator, and the bias of the reader. It doesnt mean that that the communicator is right or wrong, it is simply a point of view. If Jane Roberts never set out to write books containing channelled information, it is possible she would simply be known as a philosopher and inspirational writer. And it is quite possible she would never have made it into any Encyclopaedia, or maybe a as an obscure reference somewhere. But it is very apparent to me that her core life work, and what she is (in)famous for, is the Seth Material. Thus I believe that discussion about her life, in the context of the impact that the Seth material had on her mental and physical wellbeing, as well as the influence it has had on subsequent writers, philosophers, and thinkers, are all important aspects of what constitutes 'Jane Roberts'. I've got way off topic from the concept of her being fraudulent or not. Maybe not.
Well, it seems the common practice that I have come across in discussions and labellings within Wikipedia so far, when a skeptical viewpoint is presented on difficult to verify spiritual phenomena, is to label it a pseudoscientific viewpoint. In that sense, I would say that such a label would possibly be presented here (for the first time?) i.e: the Seth Material as pseudoscience, and thus an original assessment made by the Wikipedian community. What is the policy on original research? Isnt every article in Wikipedia an original contribution to knowledge, based on the findings, citations, and verifications made in scholarly peer reviewed journals, on film, in archives, files, library resources, museums of facts? So do we label Jane Robert's work as pseudoscientific? Is that an accurate presentation of her work? Who exactly, which authority, is claiming that she has been fraudulent in her presentation of the Seth Material. Who benefits from the fraud? Who benefits from the facts? The readers of this article online?
I really do feel that the word 'claimed' in the context of this article, if oversused, can create an implicit bias that the Seth Material is 'unscientific'. Can philosophy be 'unscientific'? Of course it can? Can the Seth Material represent truth? Can it represent fraud? There is a whole other level of meaning here about the bias of language to represent a "medium", and I believe mediumship implicitly represents a point of view: Jane Robert's/Seth's point of view. The authenticity of Jane Robert's authorship of the Seth Material should not be questioned. If so, we need to hire a private investigator to question her friends and family about her publishing intentions. Did she just crave attention as a New Age Guru? Did her fraudulent intetntions relieve her anxiety about her lack of notoriety as 'channel'? Apparently, she didnt even really want to be a channel at times... I think I digress into critical assessments of what her life might have been like, given certain premises about her philosophy and mental state. Roberts appears to have stated (in the article?) that she was uncomfortable with the authenticity of the Seth Material herself. It does not follow that her psychological discomfort means she had an undiagnosed delusional psychosis. People who hear voices in their head are not always crazy. Socrates called it his intuition: yes, or no. Jesus and Moses certainly spoke in terms of listening to God-source(s). Who knows? I suppose you need to utilise 'belief', give it a 14 day free trial, to see if it works for you. Did you really use it? Or do you want your money back before the offer ends, convinced it is useless?
Basically let the life of Jane Roberts, her own philosophical works, and the Seth Material speak for themselves. Describe what she was, what she did, give some detail of what she did (channelled Seth Material), details from her friends and critics, make it interesting for the reader of this encyclopedia, and leave it at that. User talk:Drakonicon Drakonicon 16:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I havent read a Jane Roberts work. I posted because it seemed that Max Mangel was sharing a skeptical view without having familiarity with a single Roberts text. I was trying to demonstrate the absurdity of philosophising on the use of skepticism in an article that really did not need it. One line to suggest that interpretations of the Roberts/Seth Material is controversial, would be enough. The artistry of my post was intended to show yet another useless intrusive philosophical position held by myself (the editor/critic/interpreter), a position that I have found some editors 'expert' at performing, in some of the Wikipedia articles I have read so far. I thoroughly support your work here Caleb. My inital post was intended to be unbiased in my suggestions. I must have struck a different chord.
The point about hiring a detective was tongue-in-cheek, because the whole act would yield very little useful results, and the concept is intrusive and offends my sensibilities. The question I was implying with the detective scenario was: Do we really need to go to that level of investigation to find out whether Roberts was a fraud? The point about 'pseudoscience', is again, a deliberately artless and biased statement, intended to provoke debate, and I DO NOT want Jane Roberts to have such links in this article. As for citations (because Wikipedia is citation mad), just pick ANY citation from Jane's works; any instance in the article that concurs with what you have read. Any source (page number ref.) is better than no reference.
And due to the fact that this raging argument about who is right and who is wrong is so extensive (the entire discussion page above) I tried to introduce few ideas to clarify the situation. I have begun to read a little of Psychic Politics. I do not pretend to be an expert on Jane Roberts. My main point was that its appears that Max Mangel is making a general assumption about Jane Roberts, and introducting a debunking mindset into the article, when it doesn't really need to be included. Readers of this encyclopaedia should be capable enough to make up their own minds about materials herein; instead of being told what to think, or how to think about Jane Roberts. As for the word count..... Peace! Drakonicon 14:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
This mediation case is still listed as "open". Is further mediation required or can I close this case? -- Ideogram 07:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Redbongooze, I feel a little uncomfortable with your addition about Christ. It's not my recollection that Seth made a specific prediction about the discovery of the Gospel of Judas. If I am remembering incorrectly, please tell me where in the Material Seth says that. Also, if we are going to mention Seth's teachings on Christ, it seems to me that there are other more important things that should be mentioned.-- Caleb Murdock 20:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Redbongooze, until I can verify the things you said, which don't strike me as accurate, I am moving your text here:
"Concerning the Christ story, Seth also predicted the discovery of the Gospel of Judas by alluding to the fact that Christ's relationship with Judas was not what we have traditionally believed, as well as the idea that Christ was able to mentally project his body to speak to people without actually being in that area. He predicted that we will continue to find revolutionary material concerning that period of time, but also that the figure who will be associated with the Second-coming of Christ will be alive somehwere by the year 2007 (predicted in the early 70's)." -- Caleb Murdock 13:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The date given by Seth as channelled by Jane Roberts, during a session for the first Seth-dictated book entitled "Seth Speaks", was 2076, but it was a date that he had given for the onset of many specific actions that would have resulted from the return of the Christ entity, for example, the Roman Catholic Church would have lost much of its power/influence, and the Christ entity would have already been here in this physical reality. Having not read ALL of later "Early Sessions" books, this is the only date mentioned in the originally published books concerning the Christ entity. Without knowing how long the returning-Christ would live in our terms, it cannot be said that he would be alive by the year 2007. If there is any quote in the later "Early Sessions" books, please include it.
--
24.74.168.248
21:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)cheliro
I have to mention this as I am not seeing it refuted in the above (or in the main article). Channeling Seth, and publishing the associated material did not preclude Jane Roberts from dying. I don't have the book in front of me, but I am presently re-reading a Seth book that states that everyone dies, period. References to Jane Roberts dying (regardless of how, in this case, from an illness) is irrelevant beyond that fact that she did die. No claim to the contrary was ever made. -- Ethmar100 21:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Now that I have "The Nature of Personal Reality" in front of me, I refer you to page 353 (Session 665, May 23, 1973): Quote: "Again, there are no accidents. No one dies under any circumstances who is not prepared to die. This applies to death through natural catastrophe as well as to any other situation." I am not speaking to the validity or accuracy of this quote, I am merely providing it as evidence supporting my prior paragraph. -- Ethmar100 02:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, Max, as Jane Roberts and Robert Butts were the vehicle through which the book was published this does not mean that either of them "lived" the material. I suppose it is possible with greater understanding (even scientific understanding) we may discover ways to prolong our lives. Again, metaphysics aside, I believe this to be a self-evident assertion. --
Ethmar100
02:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The short answer, Max, is that you really need to read at least one of the books and then a) reflect on the material and b) determine if any of it has any basis in reality. Make no mistake, this is heavy material and it doesn't lend itself to fluffy cocktail party conversation. Sorry if this comes off as a cop-out. -- 68.94.56.186 13:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, a bit tacky; a subsection using the title of one of Jane Roberts' books. I added the question mark.
So.... in the book that I bought on Friday, called Psychic Politics by Jane Roberts, I found many interesting quotes. Here is one from the editors of her book, re-published in the year 2000. Its pretty good: "... [Jane] refused to accept the "official" explanations of her experiences that both science and religion offered. Instead, Roberts spent her life searching for her own answers to the phenomenon of Seth and to her psychic abilities and experiences. She risked ridicule and asked questions. The conclusions she came to are, today, as relevant to our search for an understanding of consciousness as they were twenty years ago." (p vii, Psychic Politics, Roberts, 1976 [2000]).
So may i cite what i think is one of her conclusions about her abilities? I'll just let the above quote settle for a bit due to the fact that my posts are quite long. Read, interpret, feel, think, say more.... Go for it guys. Drakonicon 14:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the revisions made are not correct. The one in which the third Christ figure -- Paul or Saul -- was identified as the Apostle Paul isn't, to the best of my memory, correct, but I am going to look into it. I remember reading those passages and wondering, "Is this the Apostle Paul that Seth is talking about?" and never getting an answer, but I may be wrong.
As for saying that Paul or Saul is going to "appear" in the "21th century", that is less specific and less accurate than what was already there. Seth most definitely said that Saul or Paul would "reincarnate", and he made it clear that it would be in mid-century.-- Caleb Murdock 07:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
-- 24.74.168.248 22:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)cheliro
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archival note: Frequent top-posting on Talk:Jane Roberts left the order of threads in a mess. Lacking the patience to refactor 164kb, I just picked a point in the middle and archived everything above it. The result is that this Archive 1 contains threads begun from 2003 through, July 2006, with some exceptions. If someone wants to undo my work and refactor the whole thing properly, feel free. JamesMLane t c 08:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It isn't necessary to cast doubt on everything that Jane Roberts said; thus it isn't necessary to say that Jane Roberts "claimed" to be skeptical of Seth's origins. The qualifying comment at the top of the article is enough to qualify the entire article without peppering the text with qualifying words such as "claimed". Furthermore, the "claimed" text that Max Mangel keeps inserting is awkward.
I question whether the Criticism section is appropriate for this article at all, since the entire article is preceded by the qualifying comment in brackets; but if it is going to stay, the wording has to be impartial and free of emotional overtones, such as derision.
Furthermore, there is no reason why there can't be an answer to criticism in the Criticism section.
I have added comments at the bottom of this page.-- Caleb Murdock 05:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Any thoughts on adding a paragraph between the fifth and sixth paragraph (after "life and consciousness.") on the ideas presented in the Jane Robert's book, The Nature of Personal Reality? I read Jane Robert's books many years ago, and as far as I know, the ideas presented in The Nature of Personal Reality are unique. I think that any unique theory should be presented to readers for consideration. What do you think? Michele123 20:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Seth books are arguably one of the most original and profound series of books about reality ever written."
from the first paragraph. It doesn't seem NPOV to me. Andrewa 09:31, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"that she believed might be a part of herself"....
It's just not true. It looks like someone who didn't read any of her books wrote that (and that dosen't belive in channeling). F16 (I wasn't logged-in)
In fact, it is true that Jane Roberts was always conflicted about the phenomenon of channeling Seth. Apparently, she coined the term “channeling;” likening the experience to changing channels on a television set, she wrote that she “switched the channel” of her consciousness. In “The Nature of Personal Reality” she wrote: “For years I’ve been confused, trying to define Seth in the usual true-false world of facts. There he’s accepted as an independent spirit—a spirit guide by those with spiritualistic beliefs—or as some displaced portion of my own personality by the scientific community. I couldn’t accept either idea, at least not in undiluted form…. If I said, ‘Look, people, I don’t think Seth is a spirit IN THE WAY THAT YOU MEAN,’ then this was interpreted as an acknowledgement that Seth was ONLY a part of my personality.... The spirit guide may represent something far different than we think. The [spirit guide] idea can also be limiting if it always places revelatory knowledge outside of us, and tries to make literal some extraordinary phenomena that may be beyond such interpretation.” (p. viii).
It is also interesting to note that during the period Roberts and Butts began producing the Seth books (late 1960s), Helen Schucman and William Thetford, two respectable academic psychiatrists at Columbia University, began producing what would become "A Course in Miracles," which contains the same ideas as the Seth books, couched in a quasi-religious context.
-- sparkit 18:19, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I did some copy editing.
The Cayce paragraph, to me, doesn't fit in this article.
In reference to this discussion, I don't think Jane coined the term "channeling." That came later, by other people.
Should this really be under "metaphysics"? That category is in the philosophical sense - not the psychic sense.
There is a very interesting chapter in one seth-book I have been reading a few years ago. The German title was "Von der ewigen Gültigkeit der Seele". In this book he said that Jesus has not been nailed to the cross but another man, who suffered from insanity, not because he wanted to fullfill the jewish prophecy.
Indeed so. In this hardly insignificant detail, the Seth books are awkwardly incompatible with 'A Course In Miracles' (to which comparison is often made): 'Seth' claims that Jesus was not really crucified, while the 'Jesus ' of A Course In Miracles several times explicitly mentions 'His' experience of being crucified and the true significance of this historical event. They can't both be right...
A serious student of A Course in Miracles understands that the Course's words don't always mean what they say literally and really should not be taken that way. The Course should be taken metaphorically and the content behind the form has to be understood. The Course is not a newspaper and shouldn't be read that way. In fact, the Course's language is the biggest problem for most of its students. The Course is in no way scientific and is often poetic. It often refers to God having arms, hands, tears, and a Voice and doing very human things but the Course's content teaches something quite different: that He does not have a body and does not even know about us at all. Indeed, the Course is written on two very distinct levels: One of non-duality and the other of duality. The Jesus of the Course is not the Jesus of the Gospels: he does nothing in this world because this world does not exist, yet like Seth he does not deny this world. Jesus in the Course is language that we can accept and understand and that language is often the metaphoric language of myth, thus when he speaks of the Crucifiction he is NOT talking about a historical event. The form of the Course is often inconsistent but the content always is. So, yes, Seth may be quite correct about the historical Jesus. Who knows? For speculation is inhabiting the world of myth and myth is not literal.
What Seth actually 'says' (about the 'substitute')is:
"The 'substitute' was a personality SEEMINGLY deluded, but in his DELUSION he knew that each person is resurrected. He took it upon himself to become the symbol of this knowledge.... The man CALLED Christ was not crucified. In the overall drama however it made little difference what was FACT, in your terms, and what was not--for the greater reality transcends facts and creates them." [Session 674].
In her book Psychic Politics, Roberts discusses apparent discrepancies among psychics and their information. Her idea was that the material was interpreted according to the talents and beliefs of the individual receiving, and this included her own material.
Contradictions.
I believe an interpersonal look at the Seth work will show as it did to me, that the blatant contradictions present in the works, even having been noted by Robert Butts and Jane Roberts herself, are the product of taking Seth's assumptions; that all realities are possible and occurring along side ours in all possible "directions", stem from not considering that you can not say for sure that Seth has not taken his information from multiple realities, being that "he", as he says has access to all the possible scenarios. He doesn't mention though whether he may be misplacing where or from what strand of "reality" the information comes from. It then leaves the possibility that the material though often contradictory can be "channeled" or "remembered" from separate strands of reality.
The information is all very coincidental to Jane and Robert's situation at the time. All be it, Seth explains that All That Is, is pre-agreed upon. I can't say pre-destined because he/she makes it clear that it is not the case. Yet he says several times that reality is the product of all consciousness agreeing on what to label reality as.
A reader looking to Seth for answers is just as likely to find them lying drunk on the floor of some bathroom. One could also find them in almost any religious scripture from nearly any earthborn culture, as long as you ignore the labels these texts use. I believe you can derive the same benefit from Seth that you could from these other works if you ignore anything that seems related to actual history. In any religious manuscript the lessons are what people should focus on. The details of how one comes to illustrate these lessons are harmful.
I found the Seth 2, "channeling" to be the most beneficial. Short and sweet and to the point. ie: there is no point.
In the book "Seth Speaks", Seth described the Christ as a powerful psychic, a gifted individual capable of changing the course of world-events by his mere presence. In the same book, Seth maintained that when mankind is in great need, we (humankind), a gestalt consciousness en-masse, will bring forth from an individual such as Christ to help us with our world-problems. In biblical terms, Christ is stated as being the Son of Man, and also as the Son of God. Seth had stated that Christ had appeared before in our physical reality many times, and that Christ would also return but would not be known. Biblically, it is stated that Christ would return as a "thief in the night". -- Cheliro 22:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)cheliro
I reverted and edited some of the additional information in the Criticism section - the information added was POV sentences that were opposite of criticism, so it had no place there(as opposed to factual rebuttle of criticism). Also, sometimes we do need to use the word 'claimed,' as is the case when Roberts 'claimed' to be skeptical of her own channelling. We don't know what she actually thought, and frankly, I don't believe that she had any doubts as to the nature of her channellings. MaxMangel 03:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Skeptics miss the point whether Roberts was "faking" it or not. The meta-physical construct of reality she dictated has many similarities to recent theories now becoming commonplace. Instead of claiming Seth was fake, examine the material and see if it is testable. It is still a theory, but a very intriguing one. Robert's own passing seems to have meaning, where she has entered another reality that Seth describes quite thoroughly. There are similarities between Jung's Synchronicity and the Seth material, so it is not so far fetched what the theory describes. I was especially drawn to the descriptions about the nature of time. I have read many books about the subject, and none have gone into so much depth and detail as the Seth theory.
Perhaps if you cited a source for this sentence it might be worth including in the article: "Others, however, view the Seth Material as a religious text and therefore accept it as a matter of faith." Even if you do, I don't really so how it belongs in the criticism section. If it is some attempt at rebutting criticism, I don't really understand it. I'm absolutely sure that many people who follow the Seth material just blindly accept it on faith, like people often do with other texts of religious nature, but who cares.... MaxMangel 12:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's make something clear: only an unreasonable person would claim that Jane Roberts was a fraud. An easier argument can be made for "deluded" or "schizophrenic". The proof of the Seth Material is in the reading. I am now reading the Early Sessions and they unfold in a logical, completely believable manner. The Seth Material is brilliant and consistent from beginning to end; no one could have contrived it. IF it is true that Roberts was a fraud or otherwise deluded, then it is nonetheless true that she was a brilliant theorist and philospher. So let's drop this absurd discussion about fraud. Skeptics like Max take their skepticism beyond reasonable limits. -- Caleb Murdock 05:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
MaxMangel contacted the Mediation Cabal for help in resolving this dispute. I'm prepared to help do some of the mediation, so just a few notes:
Thanks, Grobertson 23:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that mediation is necessary. Max Mangel is a self-styled "skeptic" and atheist who apparently goes around to various articles on metaphysical subjects making changes, even though he knows little about the subjects. For example, he has admitted that he has never read any of the books by Jane Roberts, whereas I have read nine. I can't respect a person like that.
Mangel's only apparent concern is that the article not promote unproven phenomena. That's fine. However, I won't negotiate with him over the text since he knows nothing about the subject. In the last day, I tried to make changes to the article to reflect his skepticism.-- Caleb Murdock 02:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Everybody seems reasonably happy with the current article, which is brilliant, but it's worth looking at how we can make it better. How about:
Any other ideas?
Grobertson 13:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
(1) There is no point in negotiating with a person who knows nothing about the topic at hand and whose only true interest is to discredit it. As evidence of this I give you Mangel's first draft of the Criticism section in which he said that "the more likely explanation is that Jane Roberts was a fraud". Any person who has read the Material knows that isn't true.
(2) Regarding the Criticism section which I deleted, it has no place in this article. It reflects other people's opinions and does not inform the reader about Jane Roberts. The fact that channelling is a controversial phenomenon can be indicated in other ways.
(3) I agree that the disclaimer is awkward. I'm considering ways to remove it. -- Caleb Murdock 16:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I have read through the talk debate above. There are quite a few disagreements. I will talk about one first; 'Whether or not Jane Roberts' 'channelling' is fraudulent; deliberately fraudulent, or misguidedly, or otherwise.' Maybe it would be useful to find a published critic of the Seth Material, who has read at least one Seth/Roberts book, and has a fair idea what the Seth/Roberts the Seth Material contains or promotes. I can see how the authenticity of Roberts as a channel can be called into question, much like Edgar Cayce's work has been. For a sceptical viewpoint we need citations from critics, (Wikipedia rules); for a supportive viewpoint(of Seth's usefulness and validity) we need citations.
I have never read any of the Seth material (not yet). I have read about 7 books written about Edgar Cayce, that quote his readings, and attempt to analyse them in context. I believe in the guidance of a Divine Source. I believe Siddhartha Gotama Buddha was a great philosopher on emptiness. Nietzsche was a great iconoclast. My point is that all these statements need qualification. Some of the Wikipedia articles that cover controversial topics, like Edgar Cayce and List of pseudoscientific theories, seem to go to great lengths to present a balanced point of view on the subject matter. Being neutral, and using neutral language, may appear scientific, and clinical, and tidy, but I would argue that anything 'written' contains biases - the bias of the writer/communicator, and the bias of the reader. It doesnt mean that that the communicator is right or wrong, it is simply a point of view. If Jane Roberts never set out to write books containing channelled information, it is possible she would simply be known as a philosopher and inspirational writer. And it is quite possible she would never have made it into any Encyclopaedia, or maybe a as an obscure reference somewhere. But it is very apparent to me that her core life work, and what she is (in)famous for, is the Seth Material. Thus I believe that discussion about her life, in the context of the impact that the Seth material had on her mental and physical wellbeing, as well as the influence it has had on subsequent writers, philosophers, and thinkers, are all important aspects of what constitutes 'Jane Roberts'. I've got way off topic from the concept of her being fraudulent or not. Maybe not.
Well, it seems the common practice that I have come across in discussions and labellings within Wikipedia so far, when a skeptical viewpoint is presented on difficult to verify spiritual phenomena, is to label it a pseudoscientific viewpoint. In that sense, I would say that such a label would possibly be presented here (for the first time?) i.e: the Seth Material as pseudoscience, and thus an original assessment made by the Wikipedian community. What is the policy on original research? Isnt every article in Wikipedia an original contribution to knowledge, based on the findings, citations, and verifications made in scholarly peer reviewed journals, on film, in archives, files, library resources, museums of facts? So do we label Jane Robert's work as pseudoscientific? Is that an accurate presentation of her work? Who exactly, which authority, is claiming that she has been fraudulent in her presentation of the Seth Material. Who benefits from the fraud? Who benefits from the facts? The readers of this article online?
I really do feel that the word 'claimed' in the context of this article, if oversused, can create an implicit bias that the Seth Material is 'unscientific'. Can philosophy be 'unscientific'? Of course it can? Can the Seth Material represent truth? Can it represent fraud? There is a whole other level of meaning here about the bias of language to represent a "medium", and I believe mediumship implicitly represents a point of view: Jane Robert's/Seth's point of view. The authenticity of Jane Robert's authorship of the Seth Material should not be questioned. If so, we need to hire a private investigator to question her friends and family about her publishing intentions. Did she just crave attention as a New Age Guru? Did her fraudulent intetntions relieve her anxiety about her lack of notoriety as 'channel'? Apparently, she didnt even really want to be a channel at times... I think I digress into critical assessments of what her life might have been like, given certain premises about her philosophy and mental state. Roberts appears to have stated (in the article?) that she was uncomfortable with the authenticity of the Seth Material herself. It does not follow that her psychological discomfort means she had an undiagnosed delusional psychosis. People who hear voices in their head are not always crazy. Socrates called it his intuition: yes, or no. Jesus and Moses certainly spoke in terms of listening to God-source(s). Who knows? I suppose you need to utilise 'belief', give it a 14 day free trial, to see if it works for you. Did you really use it? Or do you want your money back before the offer ends, convinced it is useless?
Basically let the life of Jane Roberts, her own philosophical works, and the Seth Material speak for themselves. Describe what she was, what she did, give some detail of what she did (channelled Seth Material), details from her friends and critics, make it interesting for the reader of this encyclopedia, and leave it at that. User talk:Drakonicon Drakonicon 16:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I havent read a Jane Roberts work. I posted because it seemed that Max Mangel was sharing a skeptical view without having familiarity with a single Roberts text. I was trying to demonstrate the absurdity of philosophising on the use of skepticism in an article that really did not need it. One line to suggest that interpretations of the Roberts/Seth Material is controversial, would be enough. The artistry of my post was intended to show yet another useless intrusive philosophical position held by myself (the editor/critic/interpreter), a position that I have found some editors 'expert' at performing, in some of the Wikipedia articles I have read so far. I thoroughly support your work here Caleb. My inital post was intended to be unbiased in my suggestions. I must have struck a different chord.
The point about hiring a detective was tongue-in-cheek, because the whole act would yield very little useful results, and the concept is intrusive and offends my sensibilities. The question I was implying with the detective scenario was: Do we really need to go to that level of investigation to find out whether Roberts was a fraud? The point about 'pseudoscience', is again, a deliberately artless and biased statement, intended to provoke debate, and I DO NOT want Jane Roberts to have such links in this article. As for citations (because Wikipedia is citation mad), just pick ANY citation from Jane's works; any instance in the article that concurs with what you have read. Any source (page number ref.) is better than no reference.
And due to the fact that this raging argument about who is right and who is wrong is so extensive (the entire discussion page above) I tried to introduce few ideas to clarify the situation. I have begun to read a little of Psychic Politics. I do not pretend to be an expert on Jane Roberts. My main point was that its appears that Max Mangel is making a general assumption about Jane Roberts, and introducting a debunking mindset into the article, when it doesn't really need to be included. Readers of this encyclopaedia should be capable enough to make up their own minds about materials herein; instead of being told what to think, or how to think about Jane Roberts. As for the word count..... Peace! Drakonicon 14:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
This mediation case is still listed as "open". Is further mediation required or can I close this case? -- Ideogram 07:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Redbongooze, I feel a little uncomfortable with your addition about Christ. It's not my recollection that Seth made a specific prediction about the discovery of the Gospel of Judas. If I am remembering incorrectly, please tell me where in the Material Seth says that. Also, if we are going to mention Seth's teachings on Christ, it seems to me that there are other more important things that should be mentioned.-- Caleb Murdock 20:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Redbongooze, until I can verify the things you said, which don't strike me as accurate, I am moving your text here:
"Concerning the Christ story, Seth also predicted the discovery of the Gospel of Judas by alluding to the fact that Christ's relationship with Judas was not what we have traditionally believed, as well as the idea that Christ was able to mentally project his body to speak to people without actually being in that area. He predicted that we will continue to find revolutionary material concerning that period of time, but also that the figure who will be associated with the Second-coming of Christ will be alive somehwere by the year 2007 (predicted in the early 70's)." -- Caleb Murdock 13:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The date given by Seth as channelled by Jane Roberts, during a session for the first Seth-dictated book entitled "Seth Speaks", was 2076, but it was a date that he had given for the onset of many specific actions that would have resulted from the return of the Christ entity, for example, the Roman Catholic Church would have lost much of its power/influence, and the Christ entity would have already been here in this physical reality. Having not read ALL of later "Early Sessions" books, this is the only date mentioned in the originally published books concerning the Christ entity. Without knowing how long the returning-Christ would live in our terms, it cannot be said that he would be alive by the year 2007. If there is any quote in the later "Early Sessions" books, please include it.
--
24.74.168.248
21:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)cheliro
I have to mention this as I am not seeing it refuted in the above (or in the main article). Channeling Seth, and publishing the associated material did not preclude Jane Roberts from dying. I don't have the book in front of me, but I am presently re-reading a Seth book that states that everyone dies, period. References to Jane Roberts dying (regardless of how, in this case, from an illness) is irrelevant beyond that fact that she did die. No claim to the contrary was ever made. -- Ethmar100 21:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Now that I have "The Nature of Personal Reality" in front of me, I refer you to page 353 (Session 665, May 23, 1973): Quote: "Again, there are no accidents. No one dies under any circumstances who is not prepared to die. This applies to death through natural catastrophe as well as to any other situation." I am not speaking to the validity or accuracy of this quote, I am merely providing it as evidence supporting my prior paragraph. -- Ethmar100 02:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, Max, as Jane Roberts and Robert Butts were the vehicle through which the book was published this does not mean that either of them "lived" the material. I suppose it is possible with greater understanding (even scientific understanding) we may discover ways to prolong our lives. Again, metaphysics aside, I believe this to be a self-evident assertion. --
Ethmar100
02:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The short answer, Max, is that you really need to read at least one of the books and then a) reflect on the material and b) determine if any of it has any basis in reality. Make no mistake, this is heavy material and it doesn't lend itself to fluffy cocktail party conversation. Sorry if this comes off as a cop-out. -- 68.94.56.186 13:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, a bit tacky; a subsection using the title of one of Jane Roberts' books. I added the question mark.
So.... in the book that I bought on Friday, called Psychic Politics by Jane Roberts, I found many interesting quotes. Here is one from the editors of her book, re-published in the year 2000. Its pretty good: "... [Jane] refused to accept the "official" explanations of her experiences that both science and religion offered. Instead, Roberts spent her life searching for her own answers to the phenomenon of Seth and to her psychic abilities and experiences. She risked ridicule and asked questions. The conclusions she came to are, today, as relevant to our search for an understanding of consciousness as they were twenty years ago." (p vii, Psychic Politics, Roberts, 1976 [2000]).
So may i cite what i think is one of her conclusions about her abilities? I'll just let the above quote settle for a bit due to the fact that my posts are quite long. Read, interpret, feel, think, say more.... Go for it guys. Drakonicon 14:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the revisions made are not correct. The one in which the third Christ figure -- Paul or Saul -- was identified as the Apostle Paul isn't, to the best of my memory, correct, but I am going to look into it. I remember reading those passages and wondering, "Is this the Apostle Paul that Seth is talking about?" and never getting an answer, but I may be wrong.
As for saying that Paul or Saul is going to "appear" in the "21th century", that is less specific and less accurate than what was already there. Seth most definitely said that Saul or Paul would "reincarnate", and he made it clear that it would be in mid-century.-- Caleb Murdock 07:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
-- 24.74.168.248 22:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)cheliro