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What is the problem with the family information I have provided about James Vann? I am not making this stuff up, since it was compiled from the Moravian missionary Journals kept by close contemporary eyewitnesses of Vann's activities and family and not oral traditions or secondary sources ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.114 ( talk) 17:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your feedback. For a while, I seemed to be confronting a black hole. From 1801 to 1834, the Moravian missionaries maintained daily journal entries (written in German) concerning that day's events and visitors to Spring Place, including a teenaged Samuel Houston, the widow of Gen. Nathaniel Green, and President James Madison. But they were especially aware of and concerned with the sometimes irratic personality of their patron James Vann and his moody mother (either "Mrs. Vann", "Mother Vann," or "Old Lady Vann" depending on her attitude toward the Moravians), and his stepfather (who told the missionaries that he was childless), siblings, wives, children, slaves (subject of an upcomming book by Tiya Miles about Cherokee ownership of African-Americans), employees, and customers. A missionary once removed an insect that got in Vann's ear that made him frantic. Another time a missionary found Vann lying senseless on a path. When admonished for being drunk, Vann replied "Thank God, I thought I had been shot!" There is an account of Vann torturing a teenaged white girl (hung by her thumbs; no waterboarding here!), who was suspected of theft of Vann's money but rescued by the missionies. There are not many pages in the Journals that fail to mention Vann or his relatives. Most of the journals document their relationship with James Vann until his death in 1809; afterwards their principal patron and convert was Chief Charles R. Hicks. Also they were involved with Vann's widow Margaret or Peggy Scott, who was their neighbor and first convert. Peggy's swecond husband was Joseph Crutchfield, a white man and first cousin of James Vann. Several of Vann's white relatives were employed by Vann or visited Spring Place. Also frequently mentioned in the Diaries was Major Ridge whose son John Ridge and nephews Elias Boudinot and Stand Watie were Spring Place pupils. By the way, several of my Cherokee ancestors visited Spring Place and are mentioned in the Journals, including Sally Scott who was a sister of three of Vann's wives, and her son Collins McDonald who attended the school (he was a first cousin of Chief John Ross). Hence my interest in these documents. For your information, I also assisted the editors of similar compilation of Diaries of the later and rival Presbyterian missionary school (began 1818) known as the Brainerd school located on Chickamauga Creek south of the site of Chattanooga,TN.
I cannot concieve of a more usefull, neutral, accurate, contemporary, and authoritative source than the eyewitness records written by Rosina Gambold and the other Moravian missionaries. In addition, there is a list of Spring Place students, with the name of pupil, names of his or her parents, residence, whether Indian or white, and dates of enrollment or departure (and sometimes reason for the departure). Most of Vann's children attended the Spring Place school and are listed. I transcribed this list from a microfilm of Moravian records in the Library of Congress and furnished it to the translator, Dr. McClinton (I am cited in her book). I also prepared for her a annotated index of everyone (both Cherokee and white) mentioned in the Jounals. No wonder I am frustrated at the Wikipedia rejection of this newly available information about a very colorful and important Cherokee leader ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.161 ( talk) 19:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The Moravian Journals have been peer reviewed widely as an essential primary source on Cherokee affairs during the period of the mission's existence. All of the episodes I described above can be footnoted volume and page (except for the story of the torture of the girl, which is among records of the National Archives in Washington,DC. I work in the National Archives and perhaps we could meet sometime after work hours and discuss this matter in person. Once this matter is resolved, I plan to submit to Wikipedia an eyewitness account of the murder of Chief Doublehead, the story of the explosion and sinking of Rich Joe Vann's steamboat on the Ohio River, a gang of thieves that harrassed Cherokees in Georgia called the "Pony Club", the assassination of Chief Jack Walker in 1834 by my collateral ancestor James Foreman, and other interesting Cherokee history ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.161 ( talk) 21:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you (who ever you are) that fixed the James Vann page in my favor. If I can figure how to do it, I will set up an account with Wikipedia. Cherokee history is extremely rich and full of interesting persons and events. The Cherokees are, by far, the best documented American Indian people (I hate the politically correct term "Native American"). I have decades of researching and collecting the history and genealogy of Cherokees. One of my ancestors was a white trader named Will Shorey, who served as interpreter to a delegation of Cherokee chiefs who visited London in 1763 (There is a picture of the three chiefs and interpreter Shorey). How do you add pictures, maps, charts, etc. to a Wikipedia article? ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.70 ( talk) 12:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
James Vann grew up and lived in the household of his father, John, Clement, or Joseph Vann, a Scots-Irish trader who lived among but apart from the Cherokee who surrounded him. Thoroughly acculturated, he never had anything to do with the Cherokee clan system and was indeed one of the chief instigators of its destruction. The one and only reason to mention the clan system is not because it is in any way relevant to James Vann but because one is attempting to push an idea that really is not valid. Chuck Hamilton ( talk) 18:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Genealogy Trails appears to be a volunteer site, not suitable as RS. It looks as if much of the information came verbatim from the North Georgia and other sites. Parkwells ( talk) 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
James Vann article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph of James Vann be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
What is the problem with the family information I have provided about James Vann? I am not making this stuff up, since it was compiled from the Moravian missionary Journals kept by close contemporary eyewitnesses of Vann's activities and family and not oral traditions or secondary sources ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.114 ( talk) 17:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your feedback. For a while, I seemed to be confronting a black hole. From 1801 to 1834, the Moravian missionaries maintained daily journal entries (written in German) concerning that day's events and visitors to Spring Place, including a teenaged Samuel Houston, the widow of Gen. Nathaniel Green, and President James Madison. But they were especially aware of and concerned with the sometimes irratic personality of their patron James Vann and his moody mother (either "Mrs. Vann", "Mother Vann," or "Old Lady Vann" depending on her attitude toward the Moravians), and his stepfather (who told the missionaries that he was childless), siblings, wives, children, slaves (subject of an upcomming book by Tiya Miles about Cherokee ownership of African-Americans), employees, and customers. A missionary once removed an insect that got in Vann's ear that made him frantic. Another time a missionary found Vann lying senseless on a path. When admonished for being drunk, Vann replied "Thank God, I thought I had been shot!" There is an account of Vann torturing a teenaged white girl (hung by her thumbs; no waterboarding here!), who was suspected of theft of Vann's money but rescued by the missionies. There are not many pages in the Journals that fail to mention Vann or his relatives. Most of the journals document their relationship with James Vann until his death in 1809; afterwards their principal patron and convert was Chief Charles R. Hicks. Also they were involved with Vann's widow Margaret or Peggy Scott, who was their neighbor and first convert. Peggy's swecond husband was Joseph Crutchfield, a white man and first cousin of James Vann. Several of Vann's white relatives were employed by Vann or visited Spring Place. Also frequently mentioned in the Diaries was Major Ridge whose son John Ridge and nephews Elias Boudinot and Stand Watie were Spring Place pupils. By the way, several of my Cherokee ancestors visited Spring Place and are mentioned in the Journals, including Sally Scott who was a sister of three of Vann's wives, and her son Collins McDonald who attended the school (he was a first cousin of Chief John Ross). Hence my interest in these documents. For your information, I also assisted the editors of similar compilation of Diaries of the later and rival Presbyterian missionary school (began 1818) known as the Brainerd school located on Chickamauga Creek south of the site of Chattanooga,TN.
I cannot concieve of a more usefull, neutral, accurate, contemporary, and authoritative source than the eyewitness records written by Rosina Gambold and the other Moravian missionaries. In addition, there is a list of Spring Place students, with the name of pupil, names of his or her parents, residence, whether Indian or white, and dates of enrollment or departure (and sometimes reason for the departure). Most of Vann's children attended the Spring Place school and are listed. I transcribed this list from a microfilm of Moravian records in the Library of Congress and furnished it to the translator, Dr. McClinton (I am cited in her book). I also prepared for her a annotated index of everyone (both Cherokee and white) mentioned in the Jounals. No wonder I am frustrated at the Wikipedia rejection of this newly available information about a very colorful and important Cherokee leader ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.161 ( talk) 19:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The Moravian Journals have been peer reviewed widely as an essential primary source on Cherokee affairs during the period of the mission's existence. All of the episodes I described above can be footnoted volume and page (except for the story of the torture of the girl, which is among records of the National Archives in Washington,DC. I work in the National Archives and perhaps we could meet sometime after work hours and discuss this matter in person. Once this matter is resolved, I plan to submit to Wikipedia an eyewitness account of the murder of Chief Doublehead, the story of the explosion and sinking of Rich Joe Vann's steamboat on the Ohio River, a gang of thieves that harrassed Cherokees in Georgia called the "Pony Club", the assassination of Chief Jack Walker in 1834 by my collateral ancestor James Foreman, and other interesting Cherokee history ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.161 ( talk) 21:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you (who ever you are) that fixed the James Vann page in my favor. If I can figure how to do it, I will set up an account with Wikipedia. Cherokee history is extremely rich and full of interesting persons and events. The Cherokees are, by far, the best documented American Indian people (I hate the politically correct term "Native American"). I have decades of researching and collecting the history and genealogy of Cherokees. One of my ancestors was a white trader named Will Shorey, who served as interpreter to a delegation of Cherokee chiefs who visited London in 1763 (There is a picture of the three chiefs and interpreter Shorey). How do you add pictures, maps, charts, etc. to a Wikipedia article? ( Oconostota ( talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.70 ( talk) 12:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
James Vann grew up and lived in the household of his father, John, Clement, or Joseph Vann, a Scots-Irish trader who lived among but apart from the Cherokee who surrounded him. Thoroughly acculturated, he never had anything to do with the Cherokee clan system and was indeed one of the chief instigators of its destruction. The one and only reason to mention the clan system is not because it is in any way relevant to James Vann but because one is attempting to push an idea that really is not valid. Chuck Hamilton ( talk) 18:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Genealogy Trails appears to be a volunteer site, not suitable as RS. It looks as if much of the information came verbatim from the North Georgia and other sites. Parkwells ( talk) 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)