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I recently
renamed and
edited this article to remove the hyphens from "Lee Steere", on the grounds that (to quote my edit summary) "Most references do not show the hyphen".
SatuSuro questioned the reference on my Talk Page, under the section "
which refs?" I've copied SatuSuro's comments verbatim below, so that we can discuss the matter here, which I think is more appropropriate than my talk page.
Mitch Ames (
talk)
03:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
i have books signed by some of the family - and also heaps of cites about them - they use the hyphen... lee-steere that is
In the end it is like name variants - somewhere in the lead para a comment or footnote that ties in the variant usages is important to note - then you can do anything else whereever you choose - as long as the main art in its lead has some indication of the variances - i dont think it is a good idea for wp to determine which is the correct way to do it - as he himself can be found with both ways of doing it
SatuSuro03:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
In answer to the original question, about the refs: The
version of the article before my edit included 3 citations, 2 under "References", 1 under "See also". Two of those do not have the hyphen. I've also
added these:
Muir, Alison & Dinee (1982). Forrest Family, Pioneers of Western Australia, 1842-1982. J.R. Muir & Son. p. 26.
ISBN0959288309.
Schorer, Albert (1968). History of the Upper Blackwood. Bunbury, Western Australia: South West Printing and Publishing Co. Ltd. pp. 24–36.
Both of these books show no hyphen. I also have copies of:
The Bicentennial Dictionary of Western Australians pre-1829 - 1888, Volume III, K-Q. Nedlands, Western Australia, 6009: University of Western Australia Press. 1988. p. 1838.
ISBN0855642769.{{
cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (
link)
But as I indicated above, it's more than just whether or not there's a hyphen. It's also whether the surname is just Steere, or has a Lee attached to it (with or without a hyphen). --
Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
But you haven't read what I wrote. I've provided a reputable cite, the
Australian Dictionary of Biography, where it does list him as Steere, Sir James George Lee.
Ok I believe it is wrong - even if the eds of the ADB or Bolton at the time thought it was right to do it that way :0 - I am off, cheers - in the end - I have stated already that who cares - as long as the lead para has mention of the variants - so that these drawn out conversations are not necessary in the future if the variants are covered?
SatuSuro05:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Well, when I read that "James Steere was born at Ockley, Surrey, England, third of six sons of Lee Steere ...", I really have to wonder. It seems very apparent that when he was born his surname was Steere, nothing else. Somewhere along the way, it might have been changed by the addition of Lee, but we have no information about when or why, or even if, that happened. Or how formal it was. Or whether the hyphen is mandatory, optional, or non-existent.
Also, you're chopping and changing, Suro. Up above, it was "i dont think it is a good idea for wp to determine which is the correct way to do it - as he himself can be found with both ways of doing it" - but now, you're saying that something for which there is direct evidence (viz. that his surname remained Steere), is "wrong". Those are two rather polar opposites, wouldn't you say.
According to Schorer's History of the Upper Blackwood, p24:
The name Lee was added to the name Steere on the marriage of John Steere to Miss Lee, daughter of John Lee. James George Lee Steere was the third son of John Lee Steere ..."
According to Muir's Forrest Family, Pioneers of Western Australia, 1842-1982, p26:
... the Steere family lived at Jayes in Surrey, England. The name Lee Steere [sic] was added to the name Steere after a marriage between the two families. Edwards's father Sir James George Lee Steere was the third son of this marriage..."
There is sufficient similarity between the surrounding text in each book to suggest that Muir (1982) used Schorer (1968) as the source for this information, and Muir does list Schorer in the Bibliography and References at the end of the book. (There are no
inline citations in the book.)
Mitch Ames (
talk)
09:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Aha! So, James was not the 3rd son of "Lee Steere", but of "John Steere" who later became "John Lee Steere". When James was born he was plain James Steere, but when his father changed the family surname from Steere to Lee Steere, James did likewise. That all makes perfect sense now. The question still remains, though: did James spell his surname with a hyphen or not. Even if his father did or didn't, that doesn't necessarily apply to his children. And I can now agree with SatuSuro when he says the ADB is wrong when it lists him as "Steere, James George Lee". --
Jack of Oz[your turn]00:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)reply
omg - this could be endless - jack of oz - please see your talk page - I no longer wish to unravel the lee bloody steeres ( I once knew an alcoholic member of the family tree - one is enough)
SatuSuro01:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Not sure what your problem is, Suro. Not all isseues can be resolved in one fell swoop, wham bang, thank you ma'am. Some issues need to be worked on over a period of time, with the truth being teased out slowly, strand by strand. If that's not your style, fine, there are plenty of willing others. Cheers. --
Jack of Oz[your turn]03:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)reply
More likely James was born Lee Steere, because it seems likely that his father John changed his (John's) surname when he married Miss Lee, and it is also likely that James was born after that marriage. And now for some completely unreliable OR: my wife went to school with Bindi Lee Steere, who didn't spell her name with a hyphen. She was apparently of the same family, not a direct descendent of Edward John Lee Steere (James' son, who married Caroline Forrest), because she's not in the Forrest family tree, but she may have been a descendent of one of Edward's siblings, and thus of James. (Not that this necessarily helps any!)
Mitch Ames (
talk)
12:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)reply
(Unindenting)
As part of my research into rewriting the History section of the
Boyup Brook article (
preview, in my sandbox), I today received some information about Mary Scott (one of the early settlers in the Upper Blackwood), including a photocopy of what appears to be a newspaper article from 1875 describing the inquest into Mary Scott's death. The article includes "... Mr W Scott, who resides about 10 miles the other side of J. G. Lee Steere's Esq. ...". There is no hyphen.
Mitch Ames (
talk)
12:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Maybe I was a little hasty in dismissing the
ADB's entry. They're not known for accurate research for nothing, after all. That article calls him Steere throughout, until close to the end: In later life he and his wife were usually known as Sir James and Lady Lee Steere. Most of the family followed this practice including his nephew (Sir) Ernest [Augustus] Lee Steere, one of whose grandsons inherited Jayes in Surrey.
Incidentally, Sir Ernest Augustus Lee Steere's son Sir
Ernest Henry Lee-Steere*, a former Lord Mayor of Perth, turns 98 today 22 December (that's assuming he isn't dead and we missed it, but I can't find any reference to his death anywhere). (* I can't vouch for the accuracy of that hyphen either; most references to him are unhyphenated, but a few have a hyphen.) --
Jack of Oz[your turn]19:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
James George Lee Steere is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
I recently
renamed and
edited this article to remove the hyphens from "Lee Steere", on the grounds that (to quote my edit summary) "Most references do not show the hyphen".
SatuSuro questioned the reference on my Talk Page, under the section "
which refs?" I've copied SatuSuro's comments verbatim below, so that we can discuss the matter here, which I think is more appropropriate than my talk page.
Mitch Ames (
talk)
03:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
i have books signed by some of the family - and also heaps of cites about them - they use the hyphen... lee-steere that is
In the end it is like name variants - somewhere in the lead para a comment or footnote that ties in the variant usages is important to note - then you can do anything else whereever you choose - as long as the main art in its lead has some indication of the variances - i dont think it is a good idea for wp to determine which is the correct way to do it - as he himself can be found with both ways of doing it
SatuSuro03:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
In answer to the original question, about the refs: The
version of the article before my edit included 3 citations, 2 under "References", 1 under "See also". Two of those do not have the hyphen. I've also
added these:
Muir, Alison & Dinee (1982). Forrest Family, Pioneers of Western Australia, 1842-1982. J.R. Muir & Son. p. 26.
ISBN0959288309.
Schorer, Albert (1968). History of the Upper Blackwood. Bunbury, Western Australia: South West Printing and Publishing Co. Ltd. pp. 24–36.
Both of these books show no hyphen. I also have copies of:
The Bicentennial Dictionary of Western Australians pre-1829 - 1888, Volume III, K-Q. Nedlands, Western Australia, 6009: University of Western Australia Press. 1988. p. 1838.
ISBN0855642769.{{
cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (
link)
But as I indicated above, it's more than just whether or not there's a hyphen. It's also whether the surname is just Steere, or has a Lee attached to it (with or without a hyphen). --
Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
But you haven't read what I wrote. I've provided a reputable cite, the
Australian Dictionary of Biography, where it does list him as Steere, Sir James George Lee.
Ok I believe it is wrong - even if the eds of the ADB or Bolton at the time thought it was right to do it that way :0 - I am off, cheers - in the end - I have stated already that who cares - as long as the lead para has mention of the variants - so that these drawn out conversations are not necessary in the future if the variants are covered?
SatuSuro05:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Well, when I read that "James Steere was born at Ockley, Surrey, England, third of six sons of Lee Steere ...", I really have to wonder. It seems very apparent that when he was born his surname was Steere, nothing else. Somewhere along the way, it might have been changed by the addition of Lee, but we have no information about when or why, or even if, that happened. Or how formal it was. Or whether the hyphen is mandatory, optional, or non-existent.
Also, you're chopping and changing, Suro. Up above, it was "i dont think it is a good idea for wp to determine which is the correct way to do it - as he himself can be found with both ways of doing it" - but now, you're saying that something for which there is direct evidence (viz. that his surname remained Steere), is "wrong". Those are two rather polar opposites, wouldn't you say.
According to Schorer's History of the Upper Blackwood, p24:
The name Lee was added to the name Steere on the marriage of John Steere to Miss Lee, daughter of John Lee. James George Lee Steere was the third son of John Lee Steere ..."
According to Muir's Forrest Family, Pioneers of Western Australia, 1842-1982, p26:
... the Steere family lived at Jayes in Surrey, England. The name Lee Steere [sic] was added to the name Steere after a marriage between the two families. Edwards's father Sir James George Lee Steere was the third son of this marriage..."
There is sufficient similarity between the surrounding text in each book to suggest that Muir (1982) used Schorer (1968) as the source for this information, and Muir does list Schorer in the Bibliography and References at the end of the book. (There are no
inline citations in the book.)
Mitch Ames (
talk)
09:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Aha! So, James was not the 3rd son of "Lee Steere", but of "John Steere" who later became "John Lee Steere". When James was born he was plain James Steere, but when his father changed the family surname from Steere to Lee Steere, James did likewise. That all makes perfect sense now. The question still remains, though: did James spell his surname with a hyphen or not. Even if his father did or didn't, that doesn't necessarily apply to his children. And I can now agree with SatuSuro when he says the ADB is wrong when it lists him as "Steere, James George Lee". --
Jack of Oz[your turn]00:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)reply
omg - this could be endless - jack of oz - please see your talk page - I no longer wish to unravel the lee bloody steeres ( I once knew an alcoholic member of the family tree - one is enough)
SatuSuro01:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Not sure what your problem is, Suro. Not all isseues can be resolved in one fell swoop, wham bang, thank you ma'am. Some issues need to be worked on over a period of time, with the truth being teased out slowly, strand by strand. If that's not your style, fine, there are plenty of willing others. Cheers. --
Jack of Oz[your turn]03:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)reply
More likely James was born Lee Steere, because it seems likely that his father John changed his (John's) surname when he married Miss Lee, and it is also likely that James was born after that marriage. And now for some completely unreliable OR: my wife went to school with Bindi Lee Steere, who didn't spell her name with a hyphen. She was apparently of the same family, not a direct descendent of Edward John Lee Steere (James' son, who married Caroline Forrest), because she's not in the Forrest family tree, but she may have been a descendent of one of Edward's siblings, and thus of James. (Not that this necessarily helps any!)
Mitch Ames (
talk)
12:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)reply
(Unindenting)
As part of my research into rewriting the History section of the
Boyup Brook article (
preview, in my sandbox), I today received some information about Mary Scott (one of the early settlers in the Upper Blackwood), including a photocopy of what appears to be a newspaper article from 1875 describing the inquest into Mary Scott's death. The article includes "... Mr W Scott, who resides about 10 miles the other side of J. G. Lee Steere's Esq. ...". There is no hyphen.
Mitch Ames (
talk)
12:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Maybe I was a little hasty in dismissing the
ADB's entry. They're not known for accurate research for nothing, after all. That article calls him Steere throughout, until close to the end: In later life he and his wife were usually known as Sir James and Lady Lee Steere. Most of the family followed this practice including his nephew (Sir) Ernest [Augustus] Lee Steere, one of whose grandsons inherited Jayes in Surrey.
Incidentally, Sir Ernest Augustus Lee Steere's son Sir
Ernest Henry Lee-Steere*, a former Lord Mayor of Perth, turns 98 today 22 December (that's assuming he isn't dead and we missed it, but I can't find any reference to his death anywhere). (* I can't vouch for the accuracy of that hyphen either; most references to him are unhyphenated, but a few have a hyphen.) --
Jack of Oz[your turn]19:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)reply