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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 4 March 2015. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I tried to improve the page by keeping out large, very poorly negative sections of the article which could be considered BLP violations in favor of a "criticism" section. If you disagree that this isn't the way to go please tell me why. Thanks! Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
This is the not place to list grievances against Jones. While a controversy section is perfectly valid, controversies need to be source from reliable sources, not editors own research. The current state of the article could be libelous. Listing before and after rankings around his tenure at Trinity in an attempt to imply Jones' responsibility for the fall is also potentially libelous. Paraphrasing a media report (and referencing that report) concerning the drop in ranking is more appropriate. -- RadioFan ( talk) 04:02, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I attempted to fix the POV issues with a more balanced view of Jones' entire career while at the same time maintaining the criticisms levied against him, including substantive sections on Kalamazoo College and his Academic biography, and including verified sources on Jones' accomplishments in addition to his criticisms. The introductory section was also revised to better reflect other university presidents, e.g., Peter Salovey. The work was thoroughly cited and I took great care to do so. Then the very next day a user undid all changes and returned the site to the negative attack format and I was accused by that user of whitewashing and revisionist history. It's hard to fix the POV issues when folks keep insisting on maintaining the page as an attack page. -- Bimdieke ( talk) 18:08, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Softlavendar, you can't simply remove independently cited material and claim POV. If you have specific concerns with the edits you have to make them clear and justify them. Based on your past behavior it appears you are affirmatively trying to ensure this remains an attack post. What is your bias here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bimdieke ( talk • contribs) 06:34, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Overall it looks like James Jones’ page is slightly more balanced with at least some of his history noted. I do find the paragraphs about Sweet Briar continue to be biased since there is no follow through admitting that most of the statistics which were “alleged” during the spring of 2015 were ultimately proven to be wrong after President Stone took office. And the amount of the endowment, debt, etc. turned out to be just what Jones and the Board were claiming. Today Sweet Briar College is dying a slow death where enrollment targets have not been met, fundraising targets have not been met, faculty and staff are being laid off and the curriculum watered down. It would be nice to mention that Jones and the Board are being proven right by multiple articles and information coming directly from the school. Unbiased Editting ( talk) 17:34, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
At least one major contributor to this article appears to have a close personal or professional connection to the topic, and thus to have a conflict of interest. Conflict-of-interest editors are strongly discouraged from editing the article directly, but are always welcome to propose changes on the talk page (i.e., here). You can attract the attention of other editors by putting {{ request edit}} (exactly so, with the curly parentheses) at the beginning of your request, or by clicking the link on the lowest yellow notice above. Requests that are not supported by independent reliable sources are unlikely to be accepted.
Please also note that our Terms of Use state that "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." An editor who contributes as part of his or her paid employment is required to disclose that fact. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 12:25, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Where is the information about Jones’s education. His schools and degrees? And the information about his career before Trinity College? All of this information is in the public domain yet does not appear here. And information about his books and publications?
As this entry is written it just appears to be a place where people unhappy with a few of the policies he was charged with carrying out can come to Bitch and Moan. (NOTE:Presidents do not make policy, Boards do.) And, as with so much on the internet it is all done anonymously. I would expect better from a vehicle claiming to have an anti-harassment policy! Unbiased Editting ( talk) 13:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I am truly saddened that this continues to be a place for those unhappy with just 3 of the polices Jones was charged with carrying out at two of his positions can simply attack and harass him. I have followed his entire career. What a sad day it is that those small people who cannot get past minor disappointments in life continue to remove information about 50 years of his life and career. Why are you so afraid of the whole truth about this man? He was an outstanding teacher and scholar with a stunning career! Unbiased Editting ( talk) 16:38, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Now I am truly puzzled. Go to the entry for Eileen Wilson-Oyelaran and the first foot note is “Kalamazoo College”. School records are not private. And in most of the cases for my husband, if the college website lists all previous presidents, he would be listed. Certainly archives from his years in administration would have him listed on a school’s website. Unbiased Editting ( talk) 23:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
To clarify a point, Jones was a colleague of mine for many years. I hope he would consider me a friend but more than that I have followed his career and respect his knowledge and know he is an honorable man. My husband was also a college president. Sorry for any confusion. As with most academics I have rarely looked at Wikipedia because it does not have the same standards for documenting information as scholarly writings would require. When a large part of documentation is done through secondary sources such as articles appearing in newspapers and websites there is no assurance that these articles themselves are stating facts accurately and in a non biased way. When I first read the page for Jones it appeared that he had simply sprung from his mother’s womb in 2004 to arrive at Trinity College to be attacked by a Prof. Gunderson and pro-fraternity people, and then gone to Sweet Briar College for more attacks. Having followed his career through decades I was stupefied that Wikipedia would support this kind of harrassment and abuse to anyone on any topic. I sincerely apologize for trying to add information which I know is “out in the public realm” and for adding any information where one would have to go beyond the internet to verify. I could not believe there was no mention of his various degrees and honors, his books and multitude of articles, his employment and accomplishments before Trinity College. And, what about his tenure at Trinity College? Where is the mention of the Long Walk restoration, founding of the Quest program, success of the squash program and several fund raising campaigns during his presidency. If one goes to the footnotes for the Trinity section and reads them carefully, as I have now done, one is not available without a subscription (allowable?) and the others show that the Davis endowment issues date to decades before Jones ever even arrived at Trinity. It would appear from these articles that he was actually trying to bring the college into legal compliance. (One also has to wonder why Prof Gunderson was so set that excess funds not be used to support scholars in Economics, but that is another issue.) To the fraternity issues and the issues from his year at Sweet Briar College I will make only two comments at this time: PRESIDENTS DO NOT SET POLICY for schools, Boards do, and the supporting source materials do not support much of the wording in these sections. I find the Sweet Briar section particularly interesting with where it ends. I have followed this issue very closely as an academic and read many articles since 2015, including statements sent out by the college. Since new leadership took over, the school has not even come close to the enrollment goals they set themselves and have based 2/3 of the annual budgets on fund raising. There have been multiple articles recently about the fact that the school is now laying off professors as well as staff and that all the problems which caused the previous Board to vote for an orderly closure still exist. As soon as I fully retire I will work on adding these facts with documentation. Unbiased Editting ( talk) 17:06, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi, in order to revert the massive changes made by the COI SPA, I've WP:BOLDLY reverted the article to the state it was before that user came on the scene. Obviously good-faith edits were made in the interim; I hope experienced editors will not mind redoing their policy-based edits. Thanks, Softlavender ( talk) 19:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
![]() | Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 4 March 2015. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
I tried to improve the page by keeping out large, very poorly negative sections of the article which could be considered BLP violations in favor of a "criticism" section. If you disagree that this isn't the way to go please tell me why. Thanks! Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
This is the not place to list grievances against Jones. While a controversy section is perfectly valid, controversies need to be source from reliable sources, not editors own research. The current state of the article could be libelous. Listing before and after rankings around his tenure at Trinity in an attempt to imply Jones' responsibility for the fall is also potentially libelous. Paraphrasing a media report (and referencing that report) concerning the drop in ranking is more appropriate. -- RadioFan ( talk) 04:02, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I attempted to fix the POV issues with a more balanced view of Jones' entire career while at the same time maintaining the criticisms levied against him, including substantive sections on Kalamazoo College and his Academic biography, and including verified sources on Jones' accomplishments in addition to his criticisms. The introductory section was also revised to better reflect other university presidents, e.g., Peter Salovey. The work was thoroughly cited and I took great care to do so. Then the very next day a user undid all changes and returned the site to the negative attack format and I was accused by that user of whitewashing and revisionist history. It's hard to fix the POV issues when folks keep insisting on maintaining the page as an attack page. -- Bimdieke ( talk) 18:08, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Softlavendar, you can't simply remove independently cited material and claim POV. If you have specific concerns with the edits you have to make them clear and justify them. Based on your past behavior it appears you are affirmatively trying to ensure this remains an attack post. What is your bias here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bimdieke ( talk • contribs) 06:34, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Overall it looks like James Jones’ page is slightly more balanced with at least some of his history noted. I do find the paragraphs about Sweet Briar continue to be biased since there is no follow through admitting that most of the statistics which were “alleged” during the spring of 2015 were ultimately proven to be wrong after President Stone took office. And the amount of the endowment, debt, etc. turned out to be just what Jones and the Board were claiming. Today Sweet Briar College is dying a slow death where enrollment targets have not been met, fundraising targets have not been met, faculty and staff are being laid off and the curriculum watered down. It would be nice to mention that Jones and the Board are being proven right by multiple articles and information coming directly from the school. Unbiased Editting ( talk) 17:34, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
At least one major contributor to this article appears to have a close personal or professional connection to the topic, and thus to have a conflict of interest. Conflict-of-interest editors are strongly discouraged from editing the article directly, but are always welcome to propose changes on the talk page (i.e., here). You can attract the attention of other editors by putting {{ request edit}} (exactly so, with the curly parentheses) at the beginning of your request, or by clicking the link on the lowest yellow notice above. Requests that are not supported by independent reliable sources are unlikely to be accepted.
Please also note that our Terms of Use state that "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." An editor who contributes as part of his or her paid employment is required to disclose that fact. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 12:25, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Where is the information about Jones’s education. His schools and degrees? And the information about his career before Trinity College? All of this information is in the public domain yet does not appear here. And information about his books and publications?
As this entry is written it just appears to be a place where people unhappy with a few of the policies he was charged with carrying out can come to Bitch and Moan. (NOTE:Presidents do not make policy, Boards do.) And, as with so much on the internet it is all done anonymously. I would expect better from a vehicle claiming to have an anti-harassment policy! Unbiased Editting ( talk) 13:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I am truly saddened that this continues to be a place for those unhappy with just 3 of the polices Jones was charged with carrying out at two of his positions can simply attack and harass him. I have followed his entire career. What a sad day it is that those small people who cannot get past minor disappointments in life continue to remove information about 50 years of his life and career. Why are you so afraid of the whole truth about this man? He was an outstanding teacher and scholar with a stunning career! Unbiased Editting ( talk) 16:38, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Now I am truly puzzled. Go to the entry for Eileen Wilson-Oyelaran and the first foot note is “Kalamazoo College”. School records are not private. And in most of the cases for my husband, if the college website lists all previous presidents, he would be listed. Certainly archives from his years in administration would have him listed on a school’s website. Unbiased Editting ( talk) 23:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
To clarify a point, Jones was a colleague of mine for many years. I hope he would consider me a friend but more than that I have followed his career and respect his knowledge and know he is an honorable man. My husband was also a college president. Sorry for any confusion. As with most academics I have rarely looked at Wikipedia because it does not have the same standards for documenting information as scholarly writings would require. When a large part of documentation is done through secondary sources such as articles appearing in newspapers and websites there is no assurance that these articles themselves are stating facts accurately and in a non biased way. When I first read the page for Jones it appeared that he had simply sprung from his mother’s womb in 2004 to arrive at Trinity College to be attacked by a Prof. Gunderson and pro-fraternity people, and then gone to Sweet Briar College for more attacks. Having followed his career through decades I was stupefied that Wikipedia would support this kind of harrassment and abuse to anyone on any topic. I sincerely apologize for trying to add information which I know is “out in the public realm” and for adding any information where one would have to go beyond the internet to verify. I could not believe there was no mention of his various degrees and honors, his books and multitude of articles, his employment and accomplishments before Trinity College. And, what about his tenure at Trinity College? Where is the mention of the Long Walk restoration, founding of the Quest program, success of the squash program and several fund raising campaigns during his presidency. If one goes to the footnotes for the Trinity section and reads them carefully, as I have now done, one is not available without a subscription (allowable?) and the others show that the Davis endowment issues date to decades before Jones ever even arrived at Trinity. It would appear from these articles that he was actually trying to bring the college into legal compliance. (One also has to wonder why Prof Gunderson was so set that excess funds not be used to support scholars in Economics, but that is another issue.) To the fraternity issues and the issues from his year at Sweet Briar College I will make only two comments at this time: PRESIDENTS DO NOT SET POLICY for schools, Boards do, and the supporting source materials do not support much of the wording in these sections. I find the Sweet Briar section particularly interesting with where it ends. I have followed this issue very closely as an academic and read many articles since 2015, including statements sent out by the college. Since new leadership took over, the school has not even come close to the enrollment goals they set themselves and have based 2/3 of the annual budgets on fund raising. There have been multiple articles recently about the fact that the school is now laying off professors as well as staff and that all the problems which caused the previous Board to vote for an orderly closure still exist. As soon as I fully retire I will work on adding these facts with documentation. Unbiased Editting ( talk) 17:06, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi, in order to revert the massive changes made by the COI SPA, I've WP:BOLDLY reverted the article to the state it was before that user came on the scene. Obviously good-faith edits were made in the interim; I hope experienced editors will not mind redoing their policy-based edits. Thanks, Softlavender ( talk) 19:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)