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I added "He was a sympathizer and former member of the Muslim Brotherhood." to the lead but was reverted (without explanation, by SharʿabSalam. So, let's discuss. I think it is important enough to be in the lead, and it is, more or less, a summary of what is in the article. More sources can be found in the archives of the talk page (search Muslim Brotherhood) but I have not checked any sources. Perhaps a better wording can be found. There are several quotes in the article about him being in the brotherhood, in the Political views subsection. The lead should be balanced; perhpas the Muslim Brotherhood membership is too "shocking" - that is why I did not add it directly to the first sentence (that would be too much given his subsequent work). Some of Khashoggi' opinions are in the lead so it should be incorporated somehow. So, 1) what would be a proper short summary of his relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood, and 2) how (where) in the lead is hould be incorporated? WikiHannibal ( talk) 17:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
If you want to include loaded language such as "sympathizer", you'd better have good sources saying "sympathizer". starship .paint ( talk) 14:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to edit the reference to insert the New York Magazine Google Books URL but am unable to do so correctly. Here is the URL I wanted to insert: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=NugCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA44&dq=Khashoggi+%22has+a+Jewish+grandfather%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRkenl5MLuAhVuRhUIHT17BLEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=Khashoggi%20%22has%20a%20Jewish%20grandfather%22&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcljlm ( talk • contribs) 05:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
On-line translators including Google and Bing translate kaşıkçı to spoonbill, a type of bird.
The article claims, with a referenced source, that:
His surname means "spoon maker" (Kaşıkçı) in the Turkish language
However, "spoon maker" would be an occupational surname and the idea that anyone works as just a spoon maker seems doubtful.
Something's not right.
Michael F 1967 ( talk) 00:55, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
My original point was that "spoon maker" as a real life occupation seems unlikely to me - who just makes spoons and nothing else? - so an occupational surname literally meaning spoonmaker is a good deal less likely in my mind than a typical occupational surname such as the English occupational surnames Smith, Fletcher, Wainwright, Cooper, and so on.
So while the reasoning that Kaşık means "spoon" and the ending, ci, attached to the noun denotes a person involved with what is named by the noun ostensibly makes sense, the result of that reasoning based on a perfectly sensible understanding of the language strikes me as likely to have missed something which a native speaker of the language would be able to elucidate on the grounds that - well, if you make spoons, you're going to be making something else too. If the spoons are metal, you'll be making other metal things (so Smith, perhaps?); or if the spoons are wooden, you'll be making other wooden things.
It strikes me that if Kaşıkçı is in fact used in Turkish to refer to the bird called the spoonbill, that's also consistent with the word literally meaning spoonmaker, since the spoonbill bird has a bill shaped like a spoon - making a spoonbill involves making a spoon, if you see what I mean; it's not ridiculous to suppose that Google Translate isn't wrong when suggesting that particular translation. But of course, it can't be trusted.
For sure, the fact that many sources state that the name means "spoon maker" cannot be ignored - but how do we know that those sources do not all derive from the perfectly sensible reasoning presented here which, while based on a logical understanding of the language, might possibly be mistaken in the context of the language as it is actually used?
I do not understand Turkish at all so I'm in no position to have an opinion one way or another.
I think the opinion of a native speaker of Turkish is needed here.
Michael F 1967 ( talk) 03:58, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The Biden administration recently released a report on Khashoggi’s death; is can be read (on Wikisource) here. It should be added to this article. TE(æ)A,ea. ( talk) 02:08, 27 February 2021 (UTC).
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jamal Khashoggi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Material from Jamal Khashoggi was split to Assassination of Jamal Khashoggi on 07:06, 20 October 2018 from this version. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
A news item involving Jamal Khashoggi was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on the following dates: |
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This was the most viewed article on Wikipedia for the week of October 14 to 20, 2018, according to the Top 25 Report. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 13, 2019 and October 13, 2022. |
Index
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|||
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
I added "He was a sympathizer and former member of the Muslim Brotherhood." to the lead but was reverted (without explanation, by SharʿabSalam. So, let's discuss. I think it is important enough to be in the lead, and it is, more or less, a summary of what is in the article. More sources can be found in the archives of the talk page (search Muslim Brotherhood) but I have not checked any sources. Perhaps a better wording can be found. There are several quotes in the article about him being in the brotherhood, in the Political views subsection. The lead should be balanced; perhpas the Muslim Brotherhood membership is too "shocking" - that is why I did not add it directly to the first sentence (that would be too much given his subsequent work). Some of Khashoggi' opinions are in the lead so it should be incorporated somehow. So, 1) what would be a proper short summary of his relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood, and 2) how (where) in the lead is hould be incorporated? WikiHannibal ( talk) 17:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
If you want to include loaded language such as "sympathizer", you'd better have good sources saying "sympathizer". starship .paint ( talk) 14:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to edit the reference to insert the New York Magazine Google Books URL but am unable to do so correctly. Here is the URL I wanted to insert: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=NugCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA44&dq=Khashoggi+%22has+a+Jewish+grandfather%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRkenl5MLuAhVuRhUIHT17BLEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=Khashoggi%20%22has%20a%20Jewish%20grandfather%22&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcljlm ( talk • contribs) 05:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
On-line translators including Google and Bing translate kaşıkçı to spoonbill, a type of bird.
The article claims, with a referenced source, that:
His surname means "spoon maker" (Kaşıkçı) in the Turkish language
However, "spoon maker" would be an occupational surname and the idea that anyone works as just a spoon maker seems doubtful.
Something's not right.
Michael F 1967 ( talk) 00:55, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
My original point was that "spoon maker" as a real life occupation seems unlikely to me - who just makes spoons and nothing else? - so an occupational surname literally meaning spoonmaker is a good deal less likely in my mind than a typical occupational surname such as the English occupational surnames Smith, Fletcher, Wainwright, Cooper, and so on.
So while the reasoning that Kaşık means "spoon" and the ending, ci, attached to the noun denotes a person involved with what is named by the noun ostensibly makes sense, the result of that reasoning based on a perfectly sensible understanding of the language strikes me as likely to have missed something which a native speaker of the language would be able to elucidate on the grounds that - well, if you make spoons, you're going to be making something else too. If the spoons are metal, you'll be making other metal things (so Smith, perhaps?); or if the spoons are wooden, you'll be making other wooden things.
It strikes me that if Kaşıkçı is in fact used in Turkish to refer to the bird called the spoonbill, that's also consistent with the word literally meaning spoonmaker, since the spoonbill bird has a bill shaped like a spoon - making a spoonbill involves making a spoon, if you see what I mean; it's not ridiculous to suppose that Google Translate isn't wrong when suggesting that particular translation. But of course, it can't be trusted.
For sure, the fact that many sources state that the name means "spoon maker" cannot be ignored - but how do we know that those sources do not all derive from the perfectly sensible reasoning presented here which, while based on a logical understanding of the language, might possibly be mistaken in the context of the language as it is actually used?
I do not understand Turkish at all so I'm in no position to have an opinion one way or another.
I think the opinion of a native speaker of Turkish is needed here.
Michael F 1967 ( talk) 03:58, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The Biden administration recently released a report on Khashoggi’s death; is can be read (on Wikisource) here. It should be added to this article. TE(æ)A,ea. ( talk) 02:08, 27 February 2021 (UTC).