This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jagdtiger article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Has anybody else heard of Jagdtigers with 88mm guns installed due to shortage of the 128mm?
Peabody11 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.156.42.129 ( talk • contribs)
Quote" Not every Jagdtiger, however, enjoyed the luxury of mounting this formidable weapon. By the start of 1945, the 12.8 cm gun was in such short supply that Steyr-Daimler-Puch was forced to mount the 8.8cm L/71 KwK 43 gun...in the last 26 Jagdtigers completed"
German Tanks of World War 2 Dr. S. Hart and Dr. R. Hart ISBN1-897884-37-0
which quotes as it's source: National Records Archieves Administration, Washington D.C (captured German records, records of the Inspector General of Armed Forces)
I do however admit, and thus refrain from including this info..that I have never seen it anywhere else. If other references are available, I'd be curious as well.
Motorfix 02:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Just my opinion, but if you look at the tank at Aberdeen, it clearly has a much smaller diameter gun than that found on a standard JT. Looks like a 88/L71 to me.
Harry 138.162.8.57 ( talk) 20:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I think 20 Jagdtigers had the 88 as opposed to the 128 (
82.112.154.110 (
talk) 22:49, 31 August 2012 (UTC))
What's got the stronger gun in terms of AP - Jagdtiger or ISU-122? chubbychicken 03:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
"Mechanical shock and explosion was often enough to knock-out enemy AFV without any armour penetration."
Muzzle energies:
84.73.131.26 ( talk) 15:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
What's with this designation as a super-heavy AFV or tank? Seems completely arbitrary to me and should be omitted if there is no source other than another wiki article. DMorpheus 14:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Tiger ace Otto Carius commanded several Jagdtigers.
He wrote that Jagdtiger's 128mm gun needed to be re-calibrated even after a short run on off-road. I have no reason to doubt about his combat experience. Even most modern tanks like American M1, British Challenger 2, French Leclerc, Italian Ariete, Japanese type 90 & Type 10, South Korean K1 & K2, have a calibration mirror housing permanently attached to the top of the muzzle (Japanese have it on the left side). Modern computerized firing system would shoot a laser to the mirror, and see how the angle had changed. It then calibrate automatically to compensate for the gun droop which might have been caused by intense heat from sun, continuous firing or other factors. Such system was not available for Jagdtigers. I can only assume that Jagdtiger required a bit more calibration than Tiger. Carius would not have complained about Jagdtiger's need for re-calibration, if it was about the same as Tiger's need for re-calibration. Since he made a point about it as a commanding officer of several Jagdtigers, I thought it was a point worth noting to broaden our knowledge of Jagdtiger's combat effectiveness.
He was a bit critical of Jagdtiger on several points, even though he was clearly impressed by its firepower.
He did mention human factors that prevented effective use of Jagdtiger. Lack of training and moral was a big factor that prevented full utilization of Jagdtiger's potential. Also general attitude of German soldiers and German people that the real enemy is not Americans, but Russians seems to have prevented a few jagdtiger engagements from occurring at all.
Thank you. Fair enough for German belief of the time. Page numbers were added at the end of sentences. I'll try to figure out how to put it in neat end notes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mpark001 ( talk • contribs) 02:40, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for making end notes. It is 72 tons, isn't it? I went to the book and discovered that he did write it as "eighty-two tons." He must have gotten it wrong. It could have been a metric ton-> imperial tonnes mix up depending if the book was published in english before decimalisation? ( 82.112.154.110 ( talk) 22:52, 31 August 2012 (UTC))
I did some copy edits and addition/changes/correction after checking my copy of the cited book by Chamberlain and Doyle (1999). They state clearly the variant mounting the 8.8 cm (or 88 mm) L/71, designated Sd Kfz 185 "never" went into production. Does anyone have a different source which states differently; I know there has been some discussion as to that.
Secondly, I noted in the upper part of the article it has the U.S. M/D/Y and later the European D/M/Y; usually the article uses and stays with the style it was started with. I did not change it; awaiting reply. Kierzek ( talk) 00:24, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I removed the last paragraph on the combat history of the Jagdtiger. It is a myth that any were engaged in the Battle of the Bulge. Neither of the two Jagdtiger battalions reached the battle. Some U.S. soldiers claimed their tanks were knocked out by Jagdtigers during the battle, but they were likely engaged by a Stug III unit. Nevertheless this story still holds traction and was included in the History Channel Series Greatest Tank Battles. Still, if there were no Jagdtiger units in the battle, this story cannot be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Motown67 ( talk • contribs) 16:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I removed the word "tank" from the sentence "The Jagdtiger was the heaviest armored fighting vehicle used operationally during World War II and is the heaviest tank ever to achieve series production" on the grounds that it's not a tank. @ Denniss: reverted this and is invited to make his case here as to why we should call this beast a tank. Herostratus ( talk) 18:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I just wanted to suggest changing the tags on the miniature models in the production section. They currently read: "Model of the X road wheel variant", but I think this is somewhat confusing as 'model' is a term used in vehicles, and in miniature hobby. I thought that these were live tanks based on the tag, but when I looked closer I saw that this was not the case.
In brief: I recommend adding 'miniature/scale/whatever' to clarify.
50.64.53.86 ( talk) 09:28, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
In the "Design" section an editor added "Also, because the calibre of the gun was so high, the noise, smoke, and light generated would often give its position away to enemy observers" and this was reverted with a summary of "pure nonsense". Is it?
I can't find a ref for this right off but common sense tells me there might be something to this? This beast had a 5-inch gun, which is the caliber of a naval destroyer's main guns and an inch less than that of light cruisers. It's hard to hide when you're direct-firing naval-caliber artillery in the middle of Poland I would guess. And 128mm is half again 88mm so the cross-section is double so the flash noise and smoke is maybe double or more of an 88... wouldn't that make a difference re concealment? Herostratus ( talk) 22:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
if someone with the appropriate knowledge could have a look at the two model pictures? the one marked Porsche version clearly shows a sign in front of the model "Ausführung B Henschel/Steyr" ?? 84.215.194.30 ( talk) 84.215.194.30 ( talk) 21:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jagdtiger article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Has anybody else heard of Jagdtigers with 88mm guns installed due to shortage of the 128mm?
Peabody11 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.156.42.129 ( talk • contribs)
Quote" Not every Jagdtiger, however, enjoyed the luxury of mounting this formidable weapon. By the start of 1945, the 12.8 cm gun was in such short supply that Steyr-Daimler-Puch was forced to mount the 8.8cm L/71 KwK 43 gun...in the last 26 Jagdtigers completed"
German Tanks of World War 2 Dr. S. Hart and Dr. R. Hart ISBN1-897884-37-0
which quotes as it's source: National Records Archieves Administration, Washington D.C (captured German records, records of the Inspector General of Armed Forces)
I do however admit, and thus refrain from including this info..that I have never seen it anywhere else. If other references are available, I'd be curious as well.
Motorfix 02:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Just my opinion, but if you look at the tank at Aberdeen, it clearly has a much smaller diameter gun than that found on a standard JT. Looks like a 88/L71 to me.
Harry 138.162.8.57 ( talk) 20:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I think 20 Jagdtigers had the 88 as opposed to the 128 (
82.112.154.110 (
talk) 22:49, 31 August 2012 (UTC))
What's got the stronger gun in terms of AP - Jagdtiger or ISU-122? chubbychicken 03:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
"Mechanical shock and explosion was often enough to knock-out enemy AFV without any armour penetration."
Muzzle energies:
84.73.131.26 ( talk) 15:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
What's with this designation as a super-heavy AFV or tank? Seems completely arbitrary to me and should be omitted if there is no source other than another wiki article. DMorpheus 14:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Tiger ace Otto Carius commanded several Jagdtigers.
He wrote that Jagdtiger's 128mm gun needed to be re-calibrated even after a short run on off-road. I have no reason to doubt about his combat experience. Even most modern tanks like American M1, British Challenger 2, French Leclerc, Italian Ariete, Japanese type 90 & Type 10, South Korean K1 & K2, have a calibration mirror housing permanently attached to the top of the muzzle (Japanese have it on the left side). Modern computerized firing system would shoot a laser to the mirror, and see how the angle had changed. It then calibrate automatically to compensate for the gun droop which might have been caused by intense heat from sun, continuous firing or other factors. Such system was not available for Jagdtigers. I can only assume that Jagdtiger required a bit more calibration than Tiger. Carius would not have complained about Jagdtiger's need for re-calibration, if it was about the same as Tiger's need for re-calibration. Since he made a point about it as a commanding officer of several Jagdtigers, I thought it was a point worth noting to broaden our knowledge of Jagdtiger's combat effectiveness.
He was a bit critical of Jagdtiger on several points, even though he was clearly impressed by its firepower.
He did mention human factors that prevented effective use of Jagdtiger. Lack of training and moral was a big factor that prevented full utilization of Jagdtiger's potential. Also general attitude of German soldiers and German people that the real enemy is not Americans, but Russians seems to have prevented a few jagdtiger engagements from occurring at all.
Thank you. Fair enough for German belief of the time. Page numbers were added at the end of sentences. I'll try to figure out how to put it in neat end notes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mpark001 ( talk • contribs) 02:40, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for making end notes. It is 72 tons, isn't it? I went to the book and discovered that he did write it as "eighty-two tons." He must have gotten it wrong. It could have been a metric ton-> imperial tonnes mix up depending if the book was published in english before decimalisation? ( 82.112.154.110 ( talk) 22:52, 31 August 2012 (UTC))
I did some copy edits and addition/changes/correction after checking my copy of the cited book by Chamberlain and Doyle (1999). They state clearly the variant mounting the 8.8 cm (or 88 mm) L/71, designated Sd Kfz 185 "never" went into production. Does anyone have a different source which states differently; I know there has been some discussion as to that.
Secondly, I noted in the upper part of the article it has the U.S. M/D/Y and later the European D/M/Y; usually the article uses and stays with the style it was started with. I did not change it; awaiting reply. Kierzek ( talk) 00:24, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I removed the last paragraph on the combat history of the Jagdtiger. It is a myth that any were engaged in the Battle of the Bulge. Neither of the two Jagdtiger battalions reached the battle. Some U.S. soldiers claimed their tanks were knocked out by Jagdtigers during the battle, but they were likely engaged by a Stug III unit. Nevertheless this story still holds traction and was included in the History Channel Series Greatest Tank Battles. Still, if there were no Jagdtiger units in the battle, this story cannot be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Motown67 ( talk • contribs) 16:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I removed the word "tank" from the sentence "The Jagdtiger was the heaviest armored fighting vehicle used operationally during World War II and is the heaviest tank ever to achieve series production" on the grounds that it's not a tank. @ Denniss: reverted this and is invited to make his case here as to why we should call this beast a tank. Herostratus ( talk) 18:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I just wanted to suggest changing the tags on the miniature models in the production section. They currently read: "Model of the X road wheel variant", but I think this is somewhat confusing as 'model' is a term used in vehicles, and in miniature hobby. I thought that these were live tanks based on the tag, but when I looked closer I saw that this was not the case.
In brief: I recommend adding 'miniature/scale/whatever' to clarify.
50.64.53.86 ( talk) 09:28, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
In the "Design" section an editor added "Also, because the calibre of the gun was so high, the noise, smoke, and light generated would often give its position away to enemy observers" and this was reverted with a summary of "pure nonsense". Is it?
I can't find a ref for this right off but common sense tells me there might be something to this? This beast had a 5-inch gun, which is the caliber of a naval destroyer's main guns and an inch less than that of light cruisers. It's hard to hide when you're direct-firing naval-caliber artillery in the middle of Poland I would guess. And 128mm is half again 88mm so the cross-section is double so the flash noise and smoke is maybe double or more of an 88... wouldn't that make a difference re concealment? Herostratus ( talk) 22:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
if someone with the appropriate knowledge could have a look at the two model pictures? the one marked Porsche version clearly shows a sign in front of the model "Ausführung B Henschel/Steyr" ?? 84.215.194.30 ( talk) 84.215.194.30 ( talk) 21:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)