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MonstaPro: Talk 15:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC) - ("see below for in-depth discussions")
The sentence talking about bioware executives strongly hinting the possiblity of a sequel has no references/sources to back it up.
Actually, the current word is that it is a dead IP. Bioware is shifting focus onto IPs such as Mass Effect right now. Nuclear Lunch Detected Hungry? 15:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
===Allegations of racism===
I find the "examples of subtle and overt racism..." sentence in "Criticisms" to be rather odd. In fact, I found many of the racist accusations baseless. All of the human characters in the game (except for John Cleese's character, of course) seemed to be of rather obvious Asian descent to me. Simply because they do not have a Mandarin Chinese accent does not make BioWare guilty of yanking the China out of Chinese mythology. In fact, I imagine they would have only gotten MORE accusations of racism if they tried to go for some overt accent in their voice acting. Of course, I'm welcome to more clear and specific examples of racism being provided (which is really, I suppose, what I'm asking for) and thus I haven't changed anything at this point.
ke kung-fu stars, but t
How is Tho Fan racist? It is a pseudo-Earth, it seems less inflammatory to use a conlang. And our source points out Final Fantasy as a style guide for Asians..... Final Fantasy characters are milk-white or blond haired for the most part. They are made in the Japanese anime style, witha conscious attempt to make them look more European, as that is considered attractive and exotic.
Our "source" uses a loading screen with a PC as a general guide to how characters look, when in fact Radiant Jen Zi is not the norm. The main characters may look lihat is because players have to immediately make that connection for the game to feel right. Most characters do not look like them. It is not racist, or cultural imperialism, especially considering that Asian companies in Hong Kong are a big inspiration for kung-fu movies. 74.132.129.230 10:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm just wondering: Are we also going to edit the pages on "The Record of Lodoss War" to indicate that "some" have criticised it for expropriating elements of european folklore and mythology and attempting to pass off clearly japanese archetypes as a representation of real europeans? The creators have employed no european voice actors whatsoever and the characters quite obviously sound like native speakers of japanese, instead of speaking it with british and german accents. Clearly a case of japanese cultural imperialism aimed against western Europe.
If we are going to talk about the racism in Jade Empire, surely we must acknowledge Sir Roderick von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard. This character belittles the rich and vibrant culture of England. And "von" isn't even English, it's German. Clearly the developers at Bioware hold a seething and deep-rooted malicious hatred of the English people. I'm frankly disgusted. (Because you can never tell these days, that was sarcasm. Mostly.}
For my part I find the plot summary to be a bit beleaguering. It goes into far too much detail to be a mere summary. It is currently more than a page in length and nowhere near completed. I think that perhaps a more concise version should be devised, split up into brief descriptions for each of the game's chapters
How about putting the in-game chapter summary thing (you know, "Chapter 1: Wherein a Master foretells of doom, a rival challenges for station, and the past haunts the future.") and a despcription of what happens after it?
I don’t know how much editing has been done since this discussion was started but the article still seems overly focused on the criticisms. Also the above allegations of it being an example of “yellow face” gaming because the took Chinese myth but created a fantasy world and culture is absurd, that’s just a device of fantasy writing Tolkien did it with lord of the rings, as did the creators of fable and To Human.
I don't agree. The article has a section on critisims but I would not go so far as to say that the article focuses on them too heavily nor that that they are the main focus of the article as a whole. Plenty of articles about creative and some non-creative work have a section dedicated to critisisms. However, people resonding to the critisims in a negative way has inflated the section to the point of double talk. As an example (The frame rate is quite slow, but it's pretty fast) is what the section now resembles. The earlier versions simply stated the facts that section of the article was addressing, the critisisms, and where relevant it noted some counter measures taken by the designers (i.e the loading screen problem, so mentioned due to the same issue with Knights of the Old Republic.)
as I felt it was irrelevant and previously explained. _> MonstaPro: Talk 16:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)The name of this student is determined by your choice of character at the beginning of the game. The sex of the character the player chooses affects the romance options, (see the 'Romance' section) but the storyline remains the same. The player can decide to follow the path of the Open Palm or Closed Fist as the game progresses, but no matter which path is chosen throughout the game the player may choose from the Open Palm or Closed Fist ending at the game's conclusion.
Chai Ka is refered to as a monster in the plot seccion. Although tecnically correct. In the Jade Empire there are no "Monsters". Chai Ka is a Demon. More specifically a demon Guardian. Ya Zhen, which is another Character is not mentioned in the plot. I think I'll go ahead and change the Demon part. ( Guille2015 15:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC))
The Sections seems to have become one long paragraph of double-talk. It is a sections for critisims, not for counter critisims.
Agreed. In particular that statement that it would be logical to use English speaking actors. George Takei, Ming Na Wen, Kim Mae Guest (who was actually in the game), Michelle Yeoh, while all of asian extraction do speak English. There many other asian actors that speak fluent English. As for the comment alluding to Bioware seeking out famous Western actors, only John Cleese really qualifies in that category and do we really know that this is what Bioware was after?
Removed reference to "ethnocentrism" as the concept was incorrectly used.
Created a Lotus Assassin Entry, any nipping and tucking that is required would be appreciated BH Ramsay 00:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't discussing the additional content in the differing versions from that on the first Xbox (with the blue cover) count as spoilers? MonstaPro: Talk 17:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Suggest make a list solely of reviews with percentage/grade gained, name of site & name of reviewer. _> MonstaPro: Talk 13:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
And more info can be found here. http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product_id=646813 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.60.163.211 ( talk) 13:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Why are there two developers listed? I was under the impression that JE had only one, & it's the same for each format... MonstaPro: Talk 19:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The section on the philosphies is based on the in game description. I think we should point out that despite the official description, the closed fist path involves being blatantly evil. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 08:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I've played the game, and I think the section on philosophies does constitute original research as marked, and should be either removed or condensed. I am considering an edit that achieves this. Pausaniasx 23:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm offering a major edit of the philosophies section. In my opinion, it's not really appropriate for Wikipedia to include specific gameplay storylines (without labeling them as such and without a spoilers warning) as examples for the in-game philosophies. I think it is best to remain a little bit vaguer here and just state general examples in the way Open Palmers could be evil and Closed Fisters could be good (which, in practice, is only rarely in the game). This way we can just cite the BioWare site itself instead of being tagged original research. I'd be willing to discuss this further. Pausaniasx 00:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a list of miscellaneous edits not fitting in the above categories that were reverted.
Encyclopedias should not contain spoiler warnings. This is a childish fan-boy expression which has no place in a serious encyclopedia which is, after all, what Wikipedia proports to be. Go ahead and look on he Wiki entry for any major work of fiction and see how many contain the words "spoiler warning." Does Catcher in the Rye have one? Wuthering Heights? The Godfather? Grow up and keep this nonsense to fanpages about video games.
I can't believe there's no mention to character Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard or the the fact that he's voice acted by John Cleese in this article or the List of Jade Empire characters article, I would have thought that would at least get a passing mention. — Balthazar ( T| C) 15:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Input methods Fable
wtf? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.136.13 ( talk) 16:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I changed this:
"These paths bear a close resemblance to the "Light Path" and "Dark Path" described in the BioWare title Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Thus one who follows the Way of the Open Palm is not necessarily good, and one who follows the Way of the Closed Fist is not necessarily evil."
To this:
"These paths bear a close resemblance to the "Light Path" and "Dark Path" described in the BioWare title Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic; however, a minor character states "I believe there can be intrigue behind the Way of the Open Palm, and honour behind the Way of the Closed Fist". Thus one who follows the Way of the Open Palm is not necessarily good, and one who follows the Way of the Closed Fist is not necessarily evil."
as the former was a non-sequiter considering that Dark Side PCs in KOTOR were ALWAYS evil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.90.55.168 ( talk) 07:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
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MonstaPro: Talk 15:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC) - ("see below for in-depth discussions")
The sentence talking about bioware executives strongly hinting the possiblity of a sequel has no references/sources to back it up.
Actually, the current word is that it is a dead IP. Bioware is shifting focus onto IPs such as Mass Effect right now. Nuclear Lunch Detected Hungry? 15:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
===Allegations of racism===
I find the "examples of subtle and overt racism..." sentence in "Criticisms" to be rather odd. In fact, I found many of the racist accusations baseless. All of the human characters in the game (except for John Cleese's character, of course) seemed to be of rather obvious Asian descent to me. Simply because they do not have a Mandarin Chinese accent does not make BioWare guilty of yanking the China out of Chinese mythology. In fact, I imagine they would have only gotten MORE accusations of racism if they tried to go for some overt accent in their voice acting. Of course, I'm welcome to more clear and specific examples of racism being provided (which is really, I suppose, what I'm asking for) and thus I haven't changed anything at this point.
ke kung-fu stars, but t
How is Tho Fan racist? It is a pseudo-Earth, it seems less inflammatory to use a conlang. And our source points out Final Fantasy as a style guide for Asians..... Final Fantasy characters are milk-white or blond haired for the most part. They are made in the Japanese anime style, witha conscious attempt to make them look more European, as that is considered attractive and exotic.
Our "source" uses a loading screen with a PC as a general guide to how characters look, when in fact Radiant Jen Zi is not the norm. The main characters may look lihat is because players have to immediately make that connection for the game to feel right. Most characters do not look like them. It is not racist, or cultural imperialism, especially considering that Asian companies in Hong Kong are a big inspiration for kung-fu movies. 74.132.129.230 10:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm just wondering: Are we also going to edit the pages on "The Record of Lodoss War" to indicate that "some" have criticised it for expropriating elements of european folklore and mythology and attempting to pass off clearly japanese archetypes as a representation of real europeans? The creators have employed no european voice actors whatsoever and the characters quite obviously sound like native speakers of japanese, instead of speaking it with british and german accents. Clearly a case of japanese cultural imperialism aimed against western Europe.
If we are going to talk about the racism in Jade Empire, surely we must acknowledge Sir Roderick von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard. This character belittles the rich and vibrant culture of England. And "von" isn't even English, it's German. Clearly the developers at Bioware hold a seething and deep-rooted malicious hatred of the English people. I'm frankly disgusted. (Because you can never tell these days, that was sarcasm. Mostly.}
For my part I find the plot summary to be a bit beleaguering. It goes into far too much detail to be a mere summary. It is currently more than a page in length and nowhere near completed. I think that perhaps a more concise version should be devised, split up into brief descriptions for each of the game's chapters
How about putting the in-game chapter summary thing (you know, "Chapter 1: Wherein a Master foretells of doom, a rival challenges for station, and the past haunts the future.") and a despcription of what happens after it?
I don’t know how much editing has been done since this discussion was started but the article still seems overly focused on the criticisms. Also the above allegations of it being an example of “yellow face” gaming because the took Chinese myth but created a fantasy world and culture is absurd, that’s just a device of fantasy writing Tolkien did it with lord of the rings, as did the creators of fable and To Human.
I don't agree. The article has a section on critisims but I would not go so far as to say that the article focuses on them too heavily nor that that they are the main focus of the article as a whole. Plenty of articles about creative and some non-creative work have a section dedicated to critisisms. However, people resonding to the critisims in a negative way has inflated the section to the point of double talk. As an example (The frame rate is quite slow, but it's pretty fast) is what the section now resembles. The earlier versions simply stated the facts that section of the article was addressing, the critisisms, and where relevant it noted some counter measures taken by the designers (i.e the loading screen problem, so mentioned due to the same issue with Knights of the Old Republic.)
as I felt it was irrelevant and previously explained. _> MonstaPro: Talk 16:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)The name of this student is determined by your choice of character at the beginning of the game. The sex of the character the player chooses affects the romance options, (see the 'Romance' section) but the storyline remains the same. The player can decide to follow the path of the Open Palm or Closed Fist as the game progresses, but no matter which path is chosen throughout the game the player may choose from the Open Palm or Closed Fist ending at the game's conclusion.
Chai Ka is refered to as a monster in the plot seccion. Although tecnically correct. In the Jade Empire there are no "Monsters". Chai Ka is a Demon. More specifically a demon Guardian. Ya Zhen, which is another Character is not mentioned in the plot. I think I'll go ahead and change the Demon part. ( Guille2015 15:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC))
The Sections seems to have become one long paragraph of double-talk. It is a sections for critisims, not for counter critisims.
Agreed. In particular that statement that it would be logical to use English speaking actors. George Takei, Ming Na Wen, Kim Mae Guest (who was actually in the game), Michelle Yeoh, while all of asian extraction do speak English. There many other asian actors that speak fluent English. As for the comment alluding to Bioware seeking out famous Western actors, only John Cleese really qualifies in that category and do we really know that this is what Bioware was after?
Removed reference to "ethnocentrism" as the concept was incorrectly used.
Created a Lotus Assassin Entry, any nipping and tucking that is required would be appreciated BH Ramsay 00:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't discussing the additional content in the differing versions from that on the first Xbox (with the blue cover) count as spoilers? MonstaPro: Talk 17:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Suggest make a list solely of reviews with percentage/grade gained, name of site & name of reviewer. _> MonstaPro: Talk 13:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
And more info can be found here. http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product_id=646813 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.60.163.211 ( talk) 13:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Why are there two developers listed? I was under the impression that JE had only one, & it's the same for each format... MonstaPro: Talk 19:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The section on the philosphies is based on the in game description. I think we should point out that despite the official description, the closed fist path involves being blatantly evil. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 08:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I've played the game, and I think the section on philosophies does constitute original research as marked, and should be either removed or condensed. I am considering an edit that achieves this. Pausaniasx 23:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm offering a major edit of the philosophies section. In my opinion, it's not really appropriate for Wikipedia to include specific gameplay storylines (without labeling them as such and without a spoilers warning) as examples for the in-game philosophies. I think it is best to remain a little bit vaguer here and just state general examples in the way Open Palmers could be evil and Closed Fisters could be good (which, in practice, is only rarely in the game). This way we can just cite the BioWare site itself instead of being tagged original research. I'd be willing to discuss this further. Pausaniasx 00:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a list of miscellaneous edits not fitting in the above categories that were reverted.
Encyclopedias should not contain spoiler warnings. This is a childish fan-boy expression which has no place in a serious encyclopedia which is, after all, what Wikipedia proports to be. Go ahead and look on he Wiki entry for any major work of fiction and see how many contain the words "spoiler warning." Does Catcher in the Rye have one? Wuthering Heights? The Godfather? Grow up and keep this nonsense to fanpages about video games.
I can't believe there's no mention to character Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard or the the fact that he's voice acted by John Cleese in this article or the List of Jade Empire characters article, I would have thought that would at least get a passing mention. — Balthazar ( T| C) 15:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Input methods Fable
wtf? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.136.13 ( talk) 16:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I changed this:
"These paths bear a close resemblance to the "Light Path" and "Dark Path" described in the BioWare title Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Thus one who follows the Way of the Open Palm is not necessarily good, and one who follows the Way of the Closed Fist is not necessarily evil."
To this:
"These paths bear a close resemblance to the "Light Path" and "Dark Path" described in the BioWare title Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic; however, a minor character states "I believe there can be intrigue behind the Way of the Open Palm, and honour behind the Way of the Closed Fist". Thus one who follows the Way of the Open Palm is not necessarily good, and one who follows the Way of the Closed Fist is not necessarily evil."
as the former was a non-sequiter considering that Dark Side PCs in KOTOR were ALWAYS evil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.90.55.168 ( talk) 07:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
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