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Jacques, Hereditary Prince of Monaco article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material.
What is it that is unclear about WP:BLP? Surtsicna ( talk) 19:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I have moved this page to Jacques, Crown Prince of Monaco as the Palace refers to him as Crown Prince in English. (He is refered to as Hereditary Prince in French, because that is how Crown Prince Translates). Thank You Card from Monaco Palace with Title in French and English: 2nd Birthday [1], 1st Birthday [2] Arg Matey ( talk) 23:19, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Here is a birth announcement for the Palace Calling him Crown Prince as well. [3] Arg Matey ( talk) 23:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS. Good discussion, but no consensus to move. В²C ☎ 01:01, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Jacques, Hereditary Prince of Monaco →
Jacques, Crown Prince of Monaco – The Palace refers to Jacques as Crown Prince (in English. Prince Héréditaire in French), Multiple times, even as recently as December 2016.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]. I have only see one reference on their site of using Hereditary Prince in English.
[5] and that was from May 2015
References
Arg Matey ( talk) 12:41, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Arg Matey provided the "hereditary prince" reference at the beginning of this discussion. As I said before, the correct title may well be crown prince, but if you think this is an essential change to make to the article, you've just got to provide an official source stating unequivocally that the correct title for the subject is crown prince, not just link to some blog post or awkwardly translated press releases.
Arg Matey wrote above that "Albert certainly had a good grasp of English, and as a former Hereditary Prince himself knows Monaco & the royal families traditions and customs. He most certainly would not use 'Crown Prince' on accident. It is clear the Palace has made a very deliberate choice to call Jacques, Crown Prince. He maybe the 1st Crown Prince in Monaco's history...." If, indeed, the title used to be "hereditary prince" and Prince Albert decided to change the title to "crown prince" that would be interesting, and someone probably would write an article about that. That would be an important article to read in order to figure out what's going on. Right now this looks a bit like original research. Flyte35 ( talk) 07:03, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
All the sources I see here are either blog posts or primary sources, press releases from the palace that use sort of strange English. That's great but if, indeed, the subject is "the 1st Crown Prince in Monaco's history...." that's an interesting change that should be noted, and we have to have evidence the change is real.
I don't know what correct title for this subject is, but it's not appropriate to change the article like this without very good evidence the change is warranted. I don't think simply pointing out that the title crown prince is often used is good enough. Flyte35 ( talk) 16:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
I call everyone's attention to wp:closing instructions#How to determine the outcome: The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.
It seems to me that there are several arguments above that might be discarded. In particular, those that rely on his official name, and those that rely on a translation. Both of these arguments occur several times above.
I have to admit that the guidelines on translations in article titles are unclear, see WT:AT#Article names in other Wikipedias, and be warned that it's a long and inconclusive recent discussion that wanders onto many matters including translation in titles and in general. In summary, I don't think this argument is consistent with current policy, but others do.
On the matter of official names I think it's clearer. Someone said above I don't know how we can oppose the Palace's decision and say they are categorically wrong to make that decision to use Crown Prince instead of Hereditary Prince. There are several other comments along the same line. They are completely irrelevant IMO. The Palace does not control what English speakers choose to call him, and our policy is to prefer the decision of the populace over the Palace. Andrewa ( talk) 23:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jacques, Hereditary Prince of Monaco article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material.
What is it that is unclear about WP:BLP? Surtsicna ( talk) 19:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I have moved this page to Jacques, Crown Prince of Monaco as the Palace refers to him as Crown Prince in English. (He is refered to as Hereditary Prince in French, because that is how Crown Prince Translates). Thank You Card from Monaco Palace with Title in French and English: 2nd Birthday [1], 1st Birthday [2] Arg Matey ( talk) 23:19, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Here is a birth announcement for the Palace Calling him Crown Prince as well. [3] Arg Matey ( talk) 23:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS. Good discussion, but no consensus to move. В²C ☎ 01:01, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Jacques, Hereditary Prince of Monaco →
Jacques, Crown Prince of Monaco – The Palace refers to Jacques as Crown Prince (in English. Prince Héréditaire in French), Multiple times, even as recently as December 2016.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]. I have only see one reference on their site of using Hereditary Prince in English.
[5] and that was from May 2015
References
Arg Matey ( talk) 12:41, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Arg Matey provided the "hereditary prince" reference at the beginning of this discussion. As I said before, the correct title may well be crown prince, but if you think this is an essential change to make to the article, you've just got to provide an official source stating unequivocally that the correct title for the subject is crown prince, not just link to some blog post or awkwardly translated press releases.
Arg Matey wrote above that "Albert certainly had a good grasp of English, and as a former Hereditary Prince himself knows Monaco & the royal families traditions and customs. He most certainly would not use 'Crown Prince' on accident. It is clear the Palace has made a very deliberate choice to call Jacques, Crown Prince. He maybe the 1st Crown Prince in Monaco's history...." If, indeed, the title used to be "hereditary prince" and Prince Albert decided to change the title to "crown prince" that would be interesting, and someone probably would write an article about that. That would be an important article to read in order to figure out what's going on. Right now this looks a bit like original research. Flyte35 ( talk) 07:03, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
All the sources I see here are either blog posts or primary sources, press releases from the palace that use sort of strange English. That's great but if, indeed, the subject is "the 1st Crown Prince in Monaco's history...." that's an interesting change that should be noted, and we have to have evidence the change is real.
I don't know what correct title for this subject is, but it's not appropriate to change the article like this without very good evidence the change is warranted. I don't think simply pointing out that the title crown prince is often used is good enough. Flyte35 ( talk) 16:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
I call everyone's attention to wp:closing instructions#How to determine the outcome: The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.
It seems to me that there are several arguments above that might be discarded. In particular, those that rely on his official name, and those that rely on a translation. Both of these arguments occur several times above.
I have to admit that the guidelines on translations in article titles are unclear, see WT:AT#Article names in other Wikipedias, and be warned that it's a long and inconclusive recent discussion that wanders onto many matters including translation in titles and in general. In summary, I don't think this argument is consistent with current policy, but others do.
On the matter of official names I think it's clearer. Someone said above I don't know how we can oppose the Palace's decision and say they are categorically wrong to make that decision to use Crown Prince instead of Hereditary Prince. There are several other comments along the same line. They are completely irrelevant IMO. The Palace does not control what English speakers choose to call him, and our policy is to prefer the decision of the populace over the Palace. Andrewa ( talk) 23:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)