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The article states: The Queer Art of Failure argues that failure can be productive... This is sort of the opposite of the truth. The book argues that failure is inherently unproductive but that there is value in that unproductivity. It might be a good idea to replace productive with valuable. -- 128.54.78.193 ( talk) 05:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
This doesn't seem to represent both sides of the debate fairly. It seems biased to claim that those who criticise the work have simply "mistaken" it. It would be good if the critiques and their rebuttals could be presented more evenly and clearly here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.101.69.22 ( talk • contribs) 13:48, 13 May 2006
What are the correct name and pronoun to use for Halberstam? We should aim to use the appropriate one, consistently, rather than the mix-and-match approach this article has currently. Sentences like "He received 2 Lambda Book Award nominations for her most widely-known non-fiction book, Female Masculinity." are not good... -- David Edgar ( talk) 12:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
J Jack Halberstam has been going by "Jack" since The Drag King Book, though Halberstam has not decisively said what pronouns to use. "When I was doing all that research on drag kings, I was like, well I’m not going to be Judith in this world of genderqueerness, I’m going by a male name. And at that point, I kind of wish I’d gone with the name Jude, because it would’ve been an easier transition for everybody, and for me too, and instead I just picked a very masculine name, I picked Jack, and now it’s stuck. So I’m Jack. But now I’m going more and more by Jack—I’m not transitioning, necessarily, but I’m in a lot of genderqueer contexts where people do gender by gender preference, not by your body, and I totally appreciate that. But then I suddenly had to face up to the question of whether Jack was my preferred name or not. So some people call me Jack, my sister calls me Jude, people who I’ve known forever call me Judith—I try not to police any of it. A lot of people call me he, some people call me she, and I let it be a weird mix of things and I’m not trying to control it. My next book that’s coming out in the fall, Gaga Feminism, is going to be under the name Jack." http://www.lambdaliterary.org/interviews/02/01/jack-halberstam-queers-create-better-models-of-success/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.208.77 ( talk) 21:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Everyone who voiced an opinion seemed supportive of the move, even if in some cases they didn't have a particularly strong conviction about it. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Judith Halberstam →
Jack Halberstam – See the discussion immediately above this one. One argument is that per the
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 48#Jack Halberstam (more commonly known as Judith Halberstam) -- what to title the article discussion, it's made clear that Jack still uses "Judith Halberstam" professionally, now as "Judith 'Jack' Halberstam," that "Judith Halberstam" is his
WP:Common name, and because Jack, as also noted above, seemingly does not mind being called Judith, the article should be titled Judith Halberstam. The other argument is that "everyone" is currently referring to him as Jack professionally. "His website, Twitter account and faculty page are both under 'Jack', and his lectures are announced as 'Jack', which shows [...] that he isn't using 'Judith' any more. If he himself is 'loosey goosey about pronouns' that's his prerogative, but simply means the choice in a work of reference is maybe a little harder than for a trans* person who makes a clear-cut transition. Amazon has the author page under 'J Jack H...', which is a solution that looks good [...]. But just keeping the female first name in the article title makes Wikipedia look retrograde according to current [...] norms."
Flyer22 (
talk) 15:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
This change (followup edit here) at the MOS:IDENTITY guideline by Francis Schonken (the References to the person in other articles part) takes care of my "name and pronoun mention in other articles" concern. By that, I mean where I stated the following in my "21:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)" post: "I was pointing out how changing the article title can tempt people to use this new name in every Wikipedia article and at every Wikipedia talk page, including in lesbian topics, where Jack is most known for being cited and the masculine name/pronouns are likely to cause confusion. We don't have to be consistent with the name and gender pronouns in every Wikipedia article and at every Wikipedia talk page in this case. If using the feminine name/pronouns makes more sense at any Wikipedia article where Jack is mentioned, we should use those; and we clearly have Jack's permission to do so." Flyer22 ( talk) 08:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
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As seen here, I reverted this. Followup edits here, here and here. If we are going to apply MOS:GENDERID across Wikipedia, that application needs to be consistent. MOS:GENDERID tells us that we should "give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article." In this case, Halberstam has been clear (multiple times) that he is not a trans man and is not really about policing people calling him by feminine pronouns or by "Judith" (which seems to be his birth name). There is also the fact that he is well known as "Judith Halberstam" (which can still be argued as his WP:Common name), as is clear by the body of his work (which is mostly authored under "Judith Halberstam"), and the fact that he went under "Halberstam, J. Jack." for his book "Gaga Feminism." As discussed before, the "J" in that stands for "Judith." And from a legal standpoint, it's not like we know that "Judith Halberstam" is not his legal name; "formerly Judith Halberstam" can imply that he legally changed his name from one to the other. And on top of that, Halberstam hasn't identified as non-binary. So, regardless of a few sources (yes, even The New York Times, which WanderingWanda likes to refer to as "America's newspaper of record") stating "formerly", I fail see why the lead of this article should state "formerly Judith Halberstam". And given how prominent the name "Judith Halberstam" is with regard to women's/feminist studies and lesbian literature, it will come as a surprise to readers to see Halberstam referred to by masculine pronouns in the lead, which is why it's important to let readers know right there in the lead (which is the only part of the article that many readers read) the gender identity aspect.
Even
this 2016
thecut.com source is titled "Think Gender Is Performance? You Have Judith Butler to Thank for That." It documents a Halberstam interview, and the author refers to Halberstam by feminine pronouns in addition to stating "says Jack Halberstam" at one point. It is four years after his "Gaga Feminism" book and
this interview where he speaks of going by masculine pronouns and "Jack" but also allowing people to call him by feminine pronouns and by the name Judith, and three years after
this The New York Times source that states "formerly Judith." Thecut.com source being four years after the "Gaga Feminism" book and 2012 interview and three years after the The New York Times source further shows that he is not strict about whether people should use masculine pronouns for him or call him Jack. Clearly, using the 2013 The New York Times source and
this 2017 Popular Inquiry blog source to state "formerly Judith", as though Halberstam no longer allows use of "Judith" or it is solely a past matter in reference to him, is questionable. From what I see, these two sources were simply letting readers know of the name Halberstam went by before using "Jack." Again, MOS:GENDERID states, "When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article." Given the history Halberstam has with women's/gender/lesbian topics, and that Halberstam has spoken multiple times on how he views his gender and on how others may refer to him, the current text in the lead is not undue emphasis. Having the lead state "formerly Judith Halberstam", use the masculine pronouns, and exclude any mention of the gender identity aspect will lead readers to believe that Halberstam is a trans man; this would obviously be fine if he actually identified as one.
Also keep in mind that noting this gender aspect early on in the lead was discussed as part of the #Move article to Jack Halberstam? discussion above. Pincrete noted the benefit of mentioning things as early as possible. Also pinging Kaldari since Kaldari works on a lot of gender topics and also commented in the previous move discussion. I'm open to rewording, but I question wording Halberstam's alternative name as a "formerly" matter unless Halberstam has designated it as such.
On a side note: Because of the issues WanderingWanda and I have with each other, I think it is best that this discussion doesn't just involve the two of us. So that's another reason I've pinged others. And regardless of WanderingWanda focusing on people loose with their gender, I question WanderingWanda deciding to show up at articles like Ezra Miller (a day after I've edited the article) and this one, where I'm clearly heavily involved with the topics. I've made it clear times before that I avoid (and try to avoid at other times) articles that WanderingWanda is at unless I'm already at the article. WanderingWanda clearly doesn't do the same with regard to me. And this is despite the ANI warning. So to admins JBW, Doug Weller, Girth Summit, SlimVirgin and Johnuniq, what should I do in cases like this? I mean, regarding this and this, I clearly wrote the material and we have WanderingWanda removing it with commentary such as "a poor summary." Because it's WanderingWanda, I can't help but feel hounded in a case like this. I understand the sentiment that I should try to ignore my history with WanderingWanda and focus on debating the content, but there is so much sour history between us. I just don't think it's ever a good idea for us to discuss matters without others being involved. I can try harder, but others need to understand that it is distressing for me to be involved in any discussion that WanderingWanda is involved in. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 02:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC) Updated post. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 04:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a clear consensus that the lead of the article should state "also known as Judith Halberstam" instead of "formerly known as Judith Halberstam". The consensus is that the subject does not consider "Judith Halberstam" to be a deadname and that including "Judith Halberstam" in the lead complies with WP:ALTERNATIVETITLE and MOS:MULTIPLENAMES.
Disagreement exists on whether the lead of the article should state "also known as Judith Halberstam" or "formerly known as Judith Halberstam." Mentioning, and how to mention, Halberstam's pronoun usage in the lead is also a point of discussion, but is not the main focus.
So should the lead of the article state "also known as Judith Halberstam"? Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 00:31, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
the back and forth between he and she sort of captures the form that my gender takes nowadays. Not that I am often an unambiguous “she” but nor am I often an unambiguous he. Third, I think my floating gender pronouns capture well the refusal to resolve my gender ambiguity that has become a kind of identity for me.There's no basis there to conclude that he does not identify with "Judith" at all anymore and that "Judith" is "formerly" for him. And "Judith" is still used by some excellent sources. See, for example, this from Duke University Press. This book and its description refer to "Judith Halberstam". If this was a former name, they would never do this. And while it is true the author link says "Jack Halberstam", that just shows that both names are in use. While overall "Jack" seems more common now, and thus the article is at that title, "Judith" is not a former name. Crossroads -talk- 04:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
oldidentity. Quite the opposite. He states his self-identity includes both. Crossroads -talk- 18:07, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Let's establish some agreed upon facts:
Does anyone disagree with any of the statements above? If so, please cite your sources. Kaldari ( talk) 14:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
They do not self-identify as "Judith Halberstam", is incorrect. Emphasis added:
I mostly go by “Jack” nowadays, although people who have known me for a really long time and some family members still call me Judith....when it comes to names and pronouns, I am a bit of a free floater....the back and forth between he and she sort of captures the form that my gender takes nowadays....I think my floating gender pronouns capture well the refusal to resolve my gender ambiguity that has become a kind of identity for me....consider my gender improvised at best, uncertain and mispronounced more often than not, irresolvable and ever shifting.[3] Crossroads -talk- 18:14, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi everyone!
I made some edits to the Gaga Feminism section in an attempt to summarize in a bit more of a descriptive way. I struggled to find explanations for the tenets, however, and am not familiar enough with them myself to comment more. If anyone has further knowledge or examples, I think that would be a helpful clarification! Heather.paglia ( talk) 18:15, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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The article states: The Queer Art of Failure argues that failure can be productive... This is sort of the opposite of the truth. The book argues that failure is inherently unproductive but that there is value in that unproductivity. It might be a good idea to replace productive with valuable. -- 128.54.78.193 ( talk) 05:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
This doesn't seem to represent both sides of the debate fairly. It seems biased to claim that those who criticise the work have simply "mistaken" it. It would be good if the critiques and their rebuttals could be presented more evenly and clearly here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.101.69.22 ( talk • contribs) 13:48, 13 May 2006
What are the correct name and pronoun to use for Halberstam? We should aim to use the appropriate one, consistently, rather than the mix-and-match approach this article has currently. Sentences like "He received 2 Lambda Book Award nominations for her most widely-known non-fiction book, Female Masculinity." are not good... -- David Edgar ( talk) 12:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
J Jack Halberstam has been going by "Jack" since The Drag King Book, though Halberstam has not decisively said what pronouns to use. "When I was doing all that research on drag kings, I was like, well I’m not going to be Judith in this world of genderqueerness, I’m going by a male name. And at that point, I kind of wish I’d gone with the name Jude, because it would’ve been an easier transition for everybody, and for me too, and instead I just picked a very masculine name, I picked Jack, and now it’s stuck. So I’m Jack. But now I’m going more and more by Jack—I’m not transitioning, necessarily, but I’m in a lot of genderqueer contexts where people do gender by gender preference, not by your body, and I totally appreciate that. But then I suddenly had to face up to the question of whether Jack was my preferred name or not. So some people call me Jack, my sister calls me Jude, people who I’ve known forever call me Judith—I try not to police any of it. A lot of people call me he, some people call me she, and I let it be a weird mix of things and I’m not trying to control it. My next book that’s coming out in the fall, Gaga Feminism, is going to be under the name Jack." http://www.lambdaliterary.org/interviews/02/01/jack-halberstam-queers-create-better-models-of-success/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.208.77 ( talk) 21:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Everyone who voiced an opinion seemed supportive of the move, even if in some cases they didn't have a particularly strong conviction about it. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Judith Halberstam →
Jack Halberstam – See the discussion immediately above this one. One argument is that per the
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 48#Jack Halberstam (more commonly known as Judith Halberstam) -- what to title the article discussion, it's made clear that Jack still uses "Judith Halberstam" professionally, now as "Judith 'Jack' Halberstam," that "Judith Halberstam" is his
WP:Common name, and because Jack, as also noted above, seemingly does not mind being called Judith, the article should be titled Judith Halberstam. The other argument is that "everyone" is currently referring to him as Jack professionally. "His website, Twitter account and faculty page are both under 'Jack', and his lectures are announced as 'Jack', which shows [...] that he isn't using 'Judith' any more. If he himself is 'loosey goosey about pronouns' that's his prerogative, but simply means the choice in a work of reference is maybe a little harder than for a trans* person who makes a clear-cut transition. Amazon has the author page under 'J Jack H...', which is a solution that looks good [...]. But just keeping the female first name in the article title makes Wikipedia look retrograde according to current [...] norms."
Flyer22 (
talk) 15:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
This change (followup edit here) at the MOS:IDENTITY guideline by Francis Schonken (the References to the person in other articles part) takes care of my "name and pronoun mention in other articles" concern. By that, I mean where I stated the following in my "21:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)" post: "I was pointing out how changing the article title can tempt people to use this new name in every Wikipedia article and at every Wikipedia talk page, including in lesbian topics, where Jack is most known for being cited and the masculine name/pronouns are likely to cause confusion. We don't have to be consistent with the name and gender pronouns in every Wikipedia article and at every Wikipedia talk page in this case. If using the feminine name/pronouns makes more sense at any Wikipedia article where Jack is mentioned, we should use those; and we clearly have Jack's permission to do so." Flyer22 ( talk) 08:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
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Resolved This issue has been resolved, and I have therefore removed the tag, if not already done. No further action is necessary.— cyberbot II NotifyOnline 13:40, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
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As seen here, I reverted this. Followup edits here, here and here. If we are going to apply MOS:GENDERID across Wikipedia, that application needs to be consistent. MOS:GENDERID tells us that we should "give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article." In this case, Halberstam has been clear (multiple times) that he is not a trans man and is not really about policing people calling him by feminine pronouns or by "Judith" (which seems to be his birth name). There is also the fact that he is well known as "Judith Halberstam" (which can still be argued as his WP:Common name), as is clear by the body of his work (which is mostly authored under "Judith Halberstam"), and the fact that he went under "Halberstam, J. Jack." for his book "Gaga Feminism." As discussed before, the "J" in that stands for "Judith." And from a legal standpoint, it's not like we know that "Judith Halberstam" is not his legal name; "formerly Judith Halberstam" can imply that he legally changed his name from one to the other. And on top of that, Halberstam hasn't identified as non-binary. So, regardless of a few sources (yes, even The New York Times, which WanderingWanda likes to refer to as "America's newspaper of record") stating "formerly", I fail see why the lead of this article should state "formerly Judith Halberstam". And given how prominent the name "Judith Halberstam" is with regard to women's/feminist studies and lesbian literature, it will come as a surprise to readers to see Halberstam referred to by masculine pronouns in the lead, which is why it's important to let readers know right there in the lead (which is the only part of the article that many readers read) the gender identity aspect.
Even
this 2016
thecut.com source is titled "Think Gender Is Performance? You Have Judith Butler to Thank for That." It documents a Halberstam interview, and the author refers to Halberstam by feminine pronouns in addition to stating "says Jack Halberstam" at one point. It is four years after his "Gaga Feminism" book and
this interview where he speaks of going by masculine pronouns and "Jack" but also allowing people to call him by feminine pronouns and by the name Judith, and three years after
this The New York Times source that states "formerly Judith." Thecut.com source being four years after the "Gaga Feminism" book and 2012 interview and three years after the The New York Times source further shows that he is not strict about whether people should use masculine pronouns for him or call him Jack. Clearly, using the 2013 The New York Times source and
this 2017 Popular Inquiry blog source to state "formerly Judith", as though Halberstam no longer allows use of "Judith" or it is solely a past matter in reference to him, is questionable. From what I see, these two sources were simply letting readers know of the name Halberstam went by before using "Jack." Again, MOS:GENDERID states, "When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article." Given the history Halberstam has with women's/gender/lesbian topics, and that Halberstam has spoken multiple times on how he views his gender and on how others may refer to him, the current text in the lead is not undue emphasis. Having the lead state "formerly Judith Halberstam", use the masculine pronouns, and exclude any mention of the gender identity aspect will lead readers to believe that Halberstam is a trans man; this would obviously be fine if he actually identified as one.
Also keep in mind that noting this gender aspect early on in the lead was discussed as part of the #Move article to Jack Halberstam? discussion above. Pincrete noted the benefit of mentioning things as early as possible. Also pinging Kaldari since Kaldari works on a lot of gender topics and also commented in the previous move discussion. I'm open to rewording, but I question wording Halberstam's alternative name as a "formerly" matter unless Halberstam has designated it as such.
On a side note: Because of the issues WanderingWanda and I have with each other, I think it is best that this discussion doesn't just involve the two of us. So that's another reason I've pinged others. And regardless of WanderingWanda focusing on people loose with their gender, I question WanderingWanda deciding to show up at articles like Ezra Miller (a day after I've edited the article) and this one, where I'm clearly heavily involved with the topics. I've made it clear times before that I avoid (and try to avoid at other times) articles that WanderingWanda is at unless I'm already at the article. WanderingWanda clearly doesn't do the same with regard to me. And this is despite the ANI warning. So to admins JBW, Doug Weller, Girth Summit, SlimVirgin and Johnuniq, what should I do in cases like this? I mean, regarding this and this, I clearly wrote the material and we have WanderingWanda removing it with commentary such as "a poor summary." Because it's WanderingWanda, I can't help but feel hounded in a case like this. I understand the sentiment that I should try to ignore my history with WanderingWanda and focus on debating the content, but there is so much sour history between us. I just don't think it's ever a good idea for us to discuss matters without others being involved. I can try harder, but others need to understand that it is distressing for me to be involved in any discussion that WanderingWanda is involved in. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 02:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC) Updated post. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 04:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a clear consensus that the lead of the article should state "also known as Judith Halberstam" instead of "formerly known as Judith Halberstam". The consensus is that the subject does not consider "Judith Halberstam" to be a deadname and that including "Judith Halberstam" in the lead complies with WP:ALTERNATIVETITLE and MOS:MULTIPLENAMES.
Disagreement exists on whether the lead of the article should state "also known as Judith Halberstam" or "formerly known as Judith Halberstam." Mentioning, and how to mention, Halberstam's pronoun usage in the lead is also a point of discussion, but is not the main focus.
So should the lead of the article state "also known as Judith Halberstam"? Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 00:31, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
the back and forth between he and she sort of captures the form that my gender takes nowadays. Not that I am often an unambiguous “she” but nor am I often an unambiguous he. Third, I think my floating gender pronouns capture well the refusal to resolve my gender ambiguity that has become a kind of identity for me.There's no basis there to conclude that he does not identify with "Judith" at all anymore and that "Judith" is "formerly" for him. And "Judith" is still used by some excellent sources. See, for example, this from Duke University Press. This book and its description refer to "Judith Halberstam". If this was a former name, they would never do this. And while it is true the author link says "Jack Halberstam", that just shows that both names are in use. While overall "Jack" seems more common now, and thus the article is at that title, "Judith" is not a former name. Crossroads -talk- 04:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
oldidentity. Quite the opposite. He states his self-identity includes both. Crossroads -talk- 18:07, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Let's establish some agreed upon facts:
Does anyone disagree with any of the statements above? If so, please cite your sources. Kaldari ( talk) 14:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
They do not self-identify as "Judith Halberstam", is incorrect. Emphasis added:
I mostly go by “Jack” nowadays, although people who have known me for a really long time and some family members still call me Judith....when it comes to names and pronouns, I am a bit of a free floater....the back and forth between he and she sort of captures the form that my gender takes nowadays....I think my floating gender pronouns capture well the refusal to resolve my gender ambiguity that has become a kind of identity for me....consider my gender improvised at best, uncertain and mispronounced more often than not, irresolvable and ever shifting.[3] Crossroads -talk- 18:14, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi everyone!
I made some edits to the Gaga Feminism section in an attempt to summarize in a bit more of a descriptive way. I struggled to find explanations for the tenets, however, and am not familiar enough with them myself to comment more. If anyone has further knowledge or examples, I think that would be a helpful clarification! Heather.paglia ( talk) 18:15, 4 October 2023 (UTC)