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Archive 1 |
The Man Who Would Be Queen section seems to focus more on debunking and downplaying criticism than presenting it objectively. Two paragraphs had been dedicated to Alice Dreger's defense of the book, including a full sentence to describe her qualifications. On the other hand, critics are referred to as "transsexual professors." Instead of directly saying what the criticism is, the article offers "what might have motivated some to object to the book." I suggest adding relevant criticism from Julia Serano's Whipping Girl as it is a well cited academic text that is far more direct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.237.228 ( talk) 20:46, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
This article view Dr. Bailey in a very unfavorible light. "Following the publication of Bailey's book The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender Bending and Transsexualism, Northwestern University received many complaints from transsexual women Bailey interviewed, who complained that they didn’t know he was using them as research subjects and that distorted versions of their case histories would appear in his book." Bailey asserts that: a) the two women in question did know about the book ahead of time, and didn't complain untill after it was actually published dispite having seen it prior to publishing, b) the research for the book did not constitute formal research (which was one of the main accusations leveled at him) In addition, this wikipedia article also leaves out the fact that he was exonerated of all charges in the inquiry by the Northwestern Research Review Board. Cite: Bailey's own remarks in the Northwestern Daily (campus newspaper) In addition, he mentions all the verious drawbacks to his work on bisexual men, and only uses it as a basis to suggest additional testing. Now I am unaware of the truth of the matter either way, however I am very certain that this article does not portray him in an evan handed manner persuient to the wikipedia standards, and I call the articles bias into question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.143.217.163 ( talk • contribs)
"By the end of the book, Bailey has personally "cured" Danny of his "disorder" by forcing Danny to conform to gender roles. " This is not at all the approach Bailey takes in "The Man Who Would Be Queen." At the end of the book, Bailey sees Danny again after several years, and feels confident that Danny will grow up to be a gay man. Bailey never attempts to change Danny's nature in the book, and his other research suggests that he certainly does not have anything agaist the gay population. This article is clearly not impartial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.53.95.213 ( talk • contribs)
I've removed this sentence because it simply isn't accurate: "That piece, title "Gay Straight or Lying: Bisexuality Revisited" took an oft-repeated phrase Bailey uses to claim that male bisexuals are "lying."" Please read note 3 in this press release by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. They're critical of the study, yet they acknowledge that the word "lying" is not based on any of Bailey's statments or anything in the study, but is simply "spin" added by the New York Times. If discussion of the New York Times piece is reinsterted back into the article, it should be rewritten to reflect this fact. Peter G Werner 00:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Was the study performed in 2005 or 2002? [11] claims the latter, saying "Mr. Bailey's accusations are actually based on an old 2002 conference paper (see below), extended by adding a few more subjects and then recently warming it over and spiffing it up for re-publication in a second-tier psychology journal." Mdwh 15:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed this text again. There is no citation that proves that Bailey used the phrase to claim that gay and bisexual people are lying. Its merely a thought provoking title that poses a question. The accusation that Bailey claims gay and bisexual people are lying is critical and controversial and unsourced. As such, it needs to be removed until it can be cited properly. Avruch 16:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the NPOV tag from this article. If someone wishes to add it back, please specify areas of the article which you believe do not appear to conform to policy. Jokestress 16:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
On December 16th an anonymous editor changed the description of Dr. Bailey's mentor at the University of Texas, Austin, Dr. Lee Willerman from " hereditarian and eugenics researcher" to "behavior genetics researcher". Since Dr. Willerman was from 1974 on a member of the American Eugenics Society and his academic work is described as " eugenics-themed hypotheses", I wondered why the change. In the absence of any new/changed information on Dr. Willerman, should it be reverted? CyntWorkStuff 21:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
{{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}}
along with the required parameters to the article - see
Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Hfarmer 15:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC) Just some suggestions for futures editors to think about. -- Hfarmer 15:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Note: tagged before I read this talk page, just based on reading the article. The use of "Shockingly" and "This represents only one of the inherent flaws in the logical formulation of his theories, as well as his own personal hypocrisy and ethical violations ..." are clearly not NPOV. CarlFink 16:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
oops, this was meant to go into a new section ... May I humbly suggest that the expression "the vast majority of", say, scientists, is right up there with the expression "virtually proven" for being anti-scientific - in fact, it's right up there with those who hold things in faith.
This article mentions wikipedia. Criticism of a Gender Theory, and a Scientist Under Siege -- 70.168.11.81 02:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The introduction to the section, Research and Publications, is clearly biased. I, therefore, tagged it as without NPOV. It quite obviously highlights the most controversial aspects of Bailey's research without really explaining, in a detailed manner, the research he actually conducted. Once his research is described adequately (just the facts, m'am) the tag may be removed. Of course, this is not to say that the controversial elements of his research should not be included here -- they absolutely should. But they must be in a larger, more balanced framework. ask123 15:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the standard policy on WP regarding using an internet forum as a citable source? Specifically regarding source number 19. Also, it seems a number of the citations lead to websites of interest groups (i.e. planetout, outintoronto, etc.) In a controversial situation where they can be expected to have a biased view (as they don't present themselves as unbiased sources) are these acceptable sources to cite? They may be, I don't know all the policies on point. I've added a number of citation needed tags throughout the article to sections and particular phrases where a contention is made that is unsupported by a citation. Avruch 21:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
... needs to be merged into The Man Who Would Be Queen and summarized here, as per WP:CFORK. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC) I removed the sections that went into detailed summary of the book itself. I think the main article on this book covers all of that in a similar fasion, so I didn't move anything. I left the sections dealing mainly with the controversy, because I think it is largely this controversy and follow on controversies that make Bailey notable. Would you agree that this material should remain, or at least be modified but not deleted? Avruch 18:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Seems about right from the porn industry point of view... (This is a discussion page right?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.75.77 ( talk) 23:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Quoting from the article: Bailey is well-known for research involving biology and sexual orientation. In the early 1990s he coauthored with Richard Pillard a series of twin studies which examined the rate of concordance of sexual identity among monozygotic twins (52% concordance), dizygotic twins of the same sex (22%), non-twin siblings of the same sex, and adoptive siblings of the same sex (11%).[2][3] Is it just me, or there's something wrong there... ? There's a 11% concordance of sexual orientation... ? That means that 90% of the time, if you'd take two boys for instance, there'd be one homosexual and one heterosexual ? I mean... either I don't understand what is meant to be understood, or there's something truly wrong with those numbers. Seigneur101 ( talk) 22:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of February 3, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:
Thank you very much for your patience with the currently backlogged GA nominations process. With currently 200 or so unreviewed candidates, the project is in dire need to more reviewers. Anyone can review a GA candidate, so please consider taking on a review that interests you. If you need any assistance, please don't hesitate to ask me. In the meantime, I await your work on the requested improvements.
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Van Tucky 00:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Working on responding.
Alright -
I'm a little concerned about the NPOVness of the introduction, although I think it is an accurate characterization of what it is that makes him most notable. Thoughts? Avruch talk 00:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that is better. I wasn't sure about using an acronym in the intro (or at all, really) which is why I didn't just say LGBT. I'll acknowledge for this page that I've received some concerns from an interested party by e-mail, but it will take me some time to review the substance there and I'd like the evaluation of the article based on GA criteria to continue using the current version. Thanks, Avruch talk 00:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
In general, I hope we can address the things the person who has emailed us has brought up. But none of them give me serious pause when assessing the current state of the article compared to the GA criteria. It definitely meets it. Congrats, and thanks for your patience! Van Tucky 00:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Its with regret that I've removed the listing of this article as a "Good Article." I think it has become evident, based on the recent history of this article and its current state, that this article is not at a point where it can be considered among the "Good Articles" of Wikipedia. I think that there are clear issues of stability, of compliance with core policies (particularly NPOV) and of rigor in referencing. Avruch 01:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I have no problem at all with a lead that summarizes all the relevant info. Personally, I think the whole story is a bit too complex to fit into a lead. However, if you can come up with text that describes the accusations and the results, then I have no objection. But, putting in the summary only a one-sided summary that makes it sound like he was guilty and that his university is engaged in a cover-up, then you are violating
WP:BLP. I think it would be useful to suggest some text here on the talk page before reverting again.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
01:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I honestly hadn't thought of that. You're right though; posting mere allegations does seem a violation of BLP, at least in spirit. A great many people have very strong feelings about this, however, and I can't imagine how (realistically) such a consensus could emerge for it. The suggestion also strikes me as an issue for WP rather than one just for this page, no?
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
01:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Very insightful. For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that there are indeed people who want very much for readers to infer that Bailey's work is discredited. In fact, I am right now in the middle of a content dispute leaking onto several related pages (including Bailey's) where casting doubt appears exactly to be the goal: If something is negative about Bailey it must be correct; and if something is positive, then it must be part of the cabal of his cronies. I have only recently started in the wiki world, but the Bailey and related pages seem all to have been created at the height of the controversy they created around his book. Personally, I can't help but wonder if this crew co-opted wikipedia to serve as a platform for their negative campaigning. But, that's still only my opinion, and I have to recognize their rights here as much as my own. (Although I haven't had the feeling that they would accord the same to me, but that's another matter.) As for the scientific community; some agree with Bailey, some disagree (the same as before his book). Download the Dreger paper; it's like reading a spy novel.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
02:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The article reads, 'He is best known among scientists for his work on the possible biological basis of sexual orientation, which suggests that homosexuality is substantially inherited.' There are two problems with this. One, it is not supported by a citation. Two, it is worded wrongly; scientific work cannot by itself 'suggest' anything about anything, only the scientists who interpret it can. If Bailey himself has said that his work suggests that homosexuality is substantially inherited, then a quote to this effect should be added. Skoojal ( talk) 07:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The wording is now fine. Thank you. Skoojal ( talk) 08:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
There should be little doubt that 'critics' is a much more neutral term than 'detractors.' There do not appear to be any good grounds for using the latter term instead of the former. Skoojal ( talk) 23:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if there is a word that is entirely acceptable to everyone in a complicated dispute. My understanding was that "critics say..." is a weasel word. "Detractors" and "supporters" just identify who is on what side, and I don't think there is much debate about who is indeed on what side.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
23:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
'Detractors' is a sneer word, so please don't use it. Your remarks above are not to the point and do not justify the use of a sneer word. Skoojal ( talk) 23:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm open to input from others.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
00:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
This shouldn't be a difficult issue to decide. Identifying the two sides as 'critics' and 'supporters' should be fine. Calling Bailey's critics 'detractors' makes their criticisms of him sound too personal. And note that I'm not saying that their criticisms are not personal, necessarily, just that the article shouldn't use language that emphasises this side of things. Skoojal ( talk) 00:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
(section copied from User talk:Dicklyon#TheLibrarian's rampage now that I'm off 3RR block):
Now that I'm out of the picture for a bit, it ( MarionTheLibrarian ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has accelerated to full speed. See for example this diff in the Bailey bio. By replacing the allegation of research misconduct with the other allegation of having sex with a subject, TheLibrarian figures it has a good reason to say that "Northwestern’s Provost found no basis for pursuing the complaint." What the cited source actually says is:
A NU committee looking into the allegations against Bailey told Kieltyka, in a Nov. 12 letter, that it was proceeding with a "full investigation of the allegation that professor Bailey did not obtain the informed consent of research subjects." / "I concur, and have directed that an investigation committee be established," NU vice president for research C. Bradley Moore stated. / But the committee decided not to pursue the allegations involving sex, a decision Conway criticized.
TheLibrarian continues with the phrase saying that it "did not merit further investigation.", sourced to the famous Dreger attack piece in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. If you look at what she actually said there, you find that she attributes that line to Lynn Conway's site, and if you check there, you find that it is the recollection of a person who saw another unspecified person's letter from the above mentioned C. Bradley Moore. So much for the Librarian respecting WP:BLP and WP:RS!
And that was just the first in a string of edits. They all follow the same pattern that it started (as WriteMakesRight ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 99.231.67.224 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 99.227.88.244 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and probably also 68.55.67.104 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) in December 2007) which is to clean up the image of members of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (aka the infamous Clarke Institute of Psychiatry and its Kurt Freund Phallometric Lab) and editors of the Archives of Sexual Behavior, while dumping on their transwoman critics such as Andrea James, Lynn Conway, and Deirdre McCloskey.
It would be great if someone more clever than myself would find a way to restrain it. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Edits like this one are way over the top. Asserting unsupported factoids to bolster Dreger's "attack on the critics of Bailey" as it is called in one of the commentaries, is not acceptable. I'll follow the suggestion above to take you to WP:NPOVN tomorrow, when I'm unblocked, for this latest string of edits that essentially impugn all the critics of Bailey, which you feel is somehow more fair than mentioning things about Bailey himself. Dicklyon ( talk) 15:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
And then in this edit you make up a name for the cited page, trying to give the impression that it supports what you cited it for. Sheesh! Dicklyon ( talk) 15:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Every one of my edits is correctly sourced, putting a one-to-one correspondance between allegation and outcome. Moving past Dicklyon's incivil labelling of Dreger's publication as an attack piece, information from articles published in peer-reviewed journals meet WP:V, even if Dicklyon believes that the journal contains a conspiracy against Conway (a long-time friend of Dicklyon's who comes out looking bad in Dreger's article). Rather than revert Dicklyon's changes, any input would be appreciated from folks who have opinions on which description of the allegations against Bailey and of Dreger's article better meets NPOV. (Incidentally, the title to this section also strikes me as rather incivil.)
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Folks - it appears as though some of you involved in this dispute on Wikipedia are also involved in this dispute in your professional lives. Generally speaking Wikipedia discourages you from editing articles in which you have a strong conflict of interest - i.e. your interest in bringing the article into a neutral, referenced state conflicts with your interest in reflecting your view of the subject. Clearly Jokestress is involved. You should consider whether its appropriate for you to continue to edit this article, based on your involvement in this conflict outside of Wikipedia, and if you are likely to be identified as a part of this dispute you should add yourself to the talkpage using the {{ Notable Wikipedian}} template. Avruch 21:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable about parts of this recent edit.
I would be happy to have more information on #2, and to hear your thoughts (especially Dick's) about both of my concerns.
Please note that I'm not just fixing what I perceive as significant problems because I want them to stay fixed -- thus we discuss first, and then edit. I invite any editors who happen to agree with me to exercise the same kind of restraint. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 04:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
In its latest edit, TheLibrarian has again obscured that fact that most of the commentaries on Dreger are specifically critical of the Dreger article. By putting "twenty-three commentaries regarding multiple aspects of the controversy" where we had "twenty-three commentaries on Dreger's account were also published, many of them critical of her analysis", we lose the point that the commentaries were as much about Dreger's hatchet job on the critics as about the previously underlying controversy; this point still comes through in the titles in the footnote, but I don't see why it's more "neutral" to omit it. And the edit certainly was not in response to anything on this talk page, was it? Dicklyon ( talk) 01:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Rather than revert what was a very awkward rewrite with triple repetition of "Bailey's critics," I put in a bit, from the sources, about who was making each complaint. I checked the sources carefully, edited the text to be consistent with them, and added URLs where I could so that others can verify and fix better if needed. I added a phrase at the end to make it clear that some of the commentaries are about Dreger more than about the Bailey book. I didn't say many, though one could. OK? This is perhaps too much on the controversy. As in the Conway article, it might make sense to shorten it, linking the controversy page. In that case, omitting Dreger's analysis would make it easy to avoid mentioning the additional controversy that she started. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Dick,
You seem to favor an unqualified quotation attributed to McCloskey: "Nothing we have done, I believe, and certainly nothing I have done, overstepped any boundaries of fair comment on a book and an author..."
At least a significant minority of our readers will know about, or find out about, Andrea James' "deliberately offensive satire" and will think of this incident when they read any sweeping self-exonerations from critics.
The major problem with using the quotation as a statement of absolution is that it mispresents McCloskey's actual position and makes it appear that she endorses the attack against the children as "fair comment". Remember that McCloskey says, "I am appalled by Andrea James’s vulgar satire using his children", [16] and that nearly every prominent critic has made a similar statement at some point. How many times do you suppose McCloskey has already replied to offended readers of the NYT article that "I am appalled by Andrea James’s vulgar satire using his children, and I have said so publicly"? Shall we negligently inflict more of that thankless task on her?
So while I'd be fine with including the general concept, and sourcing it to this statement (and ideally adding an extra ref to a similar statement by Conway or Serano), I don't think that it's either fair or accurate to put McCloskey in the position of appearing to assert that every single critic is as innocent as a spring lamb, because she has publicly stated the opposite position.
Instead of this direct quotation, I think we want to include a general statement like "Critics believe that their actions against Bailey and his book represent legitimate comment on a topic of public interest." The difference here is that this doesn't put McCloskey in the false position of endorsing every possible critic. It also appears to be accurate, because each individual critic does appear to believe that her own actions were acceptable, whatever other people might have done. For example, doubtless James thinks her own actions constitute fair comment, else she would have long since issued a public apology for her equally public offense, and every defense of her actions would begin with something like, "I am sorry I used his children, because it hurt them, because no one's kids should be blamed for their parents' views, and because the scandal over my satirical piece distracts people from my real message, which is...."
Will this work for you? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
This article includes the 'Scientific Misconduct' category. The inclusion of this category might be regarded as questionable or non-neutral since it implies that Bailey is, in fact, guilty of scientific misconduct. Exactly what are the grounds for this article being categorized this way? The same question can be asked of the 'Academic Scandals' category, since it could be read as judging the issue of whether it is Bailey or his critics whose behavior is the 'scandal.' Skoojal ( talk) 22:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
This phrase in the lede is inaccurate and unprovable. I don't think we have any evidence that Bailey isn't best known among scientists for the accusations of having sex with a patient/research subject. There's also no evidence that scientists know him for something different than non-scientists. I propose we change this to simply "known." If we wish to keep this slanted and unproven claim, it needs a source. Jokestress ( talk) 15:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Because Jokestress has herself included the phrase "best known" in several of the WP bio's she has written none with any source whatsoever, her demand that other editors provide such sources is hypocritical until she does the same with her own edits. Examples of Jokestress' use of the very term she decries include
Susan Bradley and
Lori Brotto.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
16:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Not "other editors." Just you. At least, I have not seen any other editor so frequently accuse third parties of doing what you have done yourself. Moreover, none of my comments were limited to mere accusation: For each instance of hypocritical remarks you have made, I have provided examples, including the specific pages and diffs where you engaged in precisely the behavior for which you were admonishing others.
As for what Bailey is best known, because it is only the scientists (including me) who knew Bailey both before and after your efforts to re-cast him, it is only the scientists and not you are in the position to know what he is known for. Moreover, according to CBSnews producers: "[H]is work is highly regarded by all of the researchers in the field who we spoke with, and we felt that he was a very worthy person to discuss these issues."
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
18:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing's point of view is well taken. To me, "scientists" means sexologists. (Admittedly, that is where I am sitting.) The import to general scientists, as WhatamIdoing says, is the academic freedom issue. I would respond, however, that the academic freedom issues do not contribute very much to the notability of Bailey so much as to the notability of those who have attacked academic freedom, using Bailey as one of their soapboxes.
As an analogy, Joseph McCarthy's attacks on freedoms established the notability of Sen. McCarthy, not the notability of his victims. The subjects of his attacks were already notable for whatever it was that brought them into McCarthy's crosshairs. Historical/encyclopedic treatments of McCarthy's victims include mention of the events, but concentrate on the subjects' accomplishments on their own. Said another way: McCarthy has little (but not nothing) notable other than his attacks, but his victims do; Andrea James has little (but not nothing) notable other than her attacks, but her victims do. So, it is my opinion that issues pertaining to attacks on academic freedom should be linked to Andrea James, not each of the many people on her long list of enemies, which are available on her website. (Incidentally, McCarthy also had a list, made famous in his Wheeling speech.)
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
16:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
— James Cantor ( talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 22:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
"Best known among scientists" could be changed to "well known." I do not think it is yet clear if Bailey is well known for the controversy, although surely the article should (and clearly does) address the controversy. ProudAGP ( talk) 04:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no reason to state what a person is known for, unless there's a source to support that. It's better to just say what they've done. The current statement of what Bailey is best known for is supposedly supported by three papers by himself, which seems unlikely. It's more likely that he is now best known for his book controversy, but there's probably not a source to support that, so leave it alone. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I intend to remove this sentence unless someone can provide a convincing explanation why it should stay. This fact has been pushed as innuendo that Bailey resigned because of the book controversy, and both he and his university have denied this. That someone resigned as chairman of a department is hardly by itself worth including. I'll wait a day or so. ProudAGP ( talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Without the context of the controversy, it makes little sense that it's there. With the context, it is innuendo. Just because something was newsworthy by the press, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be here. Lots of things have appeared about Bailey that can't be on here, due to room. But your position is not surprising. Let's see what others say. ProudAGP ( talk) 19:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
From the New York Times piece: "In October 2004, Dr. Bailey stepped down as chairman of the psychology department. He declined to say why, and a spokesman for Northwestern would say only that the change in status had nothing to do with the book." ProudAGP ( talk) 20:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
From The Chronicle of Higher Education: "Meanwhile, Mr. Bailey resigned as chairman of the university's psychology department in October, said Alan K. Cubbage, a Northwestern spokesman, who added that the change had nothing to do with the investigation." It is pretty outrageous that early versions of this page lacked this qualification, in my opinion. How 'bout you Dicklyon? I continue to contend that this fact makes the resignation sentence something better omitted. ProudAGP ( talk) 21:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I have added back the Notable Wikipedian template for User:ProudAGP, because that editor is significantly related to this article. We can discuss this here. Jokestress ( talk) 19:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
How about Lynn Conway's friend and ex(?)-employee, Dicklyon? ProudAGP ( talk) 21:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I find it extremely strange that someone can be stated to be significantly related to the subject of this article without any evidence whatsoever being presented to support this. Someone tell me why I shouldn't remove the mention of ProudAGP, because I'm strongly inclined to do that. Skoojal ( talk) 10:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
To reply to Jokestress: ProudAGP's stating that "I am not sure the tag is right" is not evidence that it is right. That ProudAGP himself or herself does not currently object to the tag does not convince me that it should stay; adding such tags without real evidence appears without justification (and I don't consider a couple of vague comments by ProudAGP to be real evidence). I am not removing it on behalf of ProudAGP, with whom I have had little or no contact. I suggest that, rather than edit warring over this, you seek more involvement by other editors. Skoojal ( talk) 22:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The named source says: "A transsexual woman who is described in a book by J. Michael Bailey, chairman of the psychology department at Northwestern University, says he had sex with her while she was an unwitting subject of his research."
JMS's statement that she was "an unwitting subject of his research" does not actually mean that JMS was an unwitting subject of his research.
The existing text -- "when she was an unwitting subject of his research" -- will be reasonably interpreted by our readers as a factual statement that JMS truly was (1) unwitting and (2) a subject of research.
Every source that has mentioned this since 2004 has denied both (1) and (2) -- the first, because it's beyond belief that a person that is actively debating Bailey's representation of her in his book could possibly be claim that the book was a surprise, and the second, because chatting with people in a bar, or taking oral histories, or inviting them to give presentations to your classes, does not make them "subjects of his research" and therefore JMS can't have been a "subject of his research".
I'm open to many options, but we shouldn't be falsely affirming the widely rejected claim that JMS was a subject of IRB-controlled research. Also, the specific sentence in this article is practically word-for-word out of the source, which I think is a WP:COPYVIO concern. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't have the time to find reliable sources for this (nor the necessary lack of personal bias), but would like to leave the ideia on the air: most lesbian porn is awful for women - because it's targeted to a male audience. Personally, for me that sort of pornographic material is so excessively fake, forced and far from what's desirable to a woman that it has the exact opposite effect it is intended to. Normally when a woman wants lesbian porn she has quite some trouble until finding sources by women for women. I would bet my head in which kind Mr. Bailey chose for his... research. Anasofiapaixao ( talk) 19:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Northwestern has announced the first phase of the outcome of Bailey's live fucksaw seminar.
Proposed text:
In May 2011, Northwestern administration cancelled the sexuality course for 2012. President Morton Schapiro said that while professors have the privilege of academic freedom, they also have to act responsibly. A Northwestern spokesperson said the school was considering moving the class to another department, saying, "Courses in human sexuality are offered in a variety of academic departments in other universities, and Northwestern is reviewing how such a course best fits into the University’s curriculum."
Comments welcome. Jokestress ( talk) 19:55, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
I've recently begun a personal study on the whole Bailey book/research controversy and I decided to come to Wikipedia to harvest some information. I always make a trip to the talk page so I can attempt to figure out just how bad the NPOV issues are on the particular article. I notice that there are a few VERY vocal people on this talk page, not that that's a problem, but sometimes it's indicative of an imbalance of opinion. Statements like this are always red flags:
After taking a trip to Jokestress' profile page I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary (no extreme activism, etc.) which could indicate extreme bias. I moved on and continued researching, eventually landed on an article in the New York Times. In the article I was appalled to find that an Andrea James harassed Bailey's family in horrible ways:
Also, from Alice Dreger's blog (I know she's not objective either, but what she says is disturbing, including the quotes from emails sent to her from Andrea James):
This is absolutely disgusting behavior and I cannot believe that Andrea James is allowed to comment on this article because of her extreme, horrible, POV. Targeting children to make a point is NEVER acceptable.
There are other LGBT activists on here too, for example, CyntWorkStuff:
That doesn't sit right with me, her language smacks of Wikipedia activism, not objectivity.
I don't have a problem with activists on Wikipedia as long as they are objective, but I wish those editing had less to gain by tarring and feathering the person that the article is about.
69.114.11.47 ( talk) 20:41, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Since the recent fucksaw demonstration is making news internationally, and since several thousand readers came to this article today to learn more, I have gathered some of the more prominent sources (WSJ, WaPo, NYTimes, NPR, major Chicago media outlets) and prepared a proposed synopsis for possible inclusion in the article:
Anyone so inclined is welcome to add this (with any revisions you deem appropriate). Should we also mention it in the intro? Jokestress ( talk) 04:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
James Cantor, as the editor who started his wikipedia career by posting and citing your own inflammatory comments on the WP bio of the editor known as Jokestress, you have no standing to be criticizing her. She posted what looks to me like a reasonable proposal here on the talk page, and asked for improvements. Focus on the content please. On the face of it, her proposal looks sensible and balanced. Propose a rewording if you have one. Dicklyon ( talk) 05:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I wonder if it might be better to wait a while (at least a week or so) before adding anything to the article. "Breaking news" isn't exactly within Wikipedia's remit, and it sounds like more sources might be available before much longer. I don't think we want to be updating this every time someone at Northwestern gives another interview to the media. Perhaps this would be a good moment to remember that WP:There is no deadline.
On the point of the proposed text, I'm not convinced that we need to include the names of any of the people involved (except Bailey, naturally).
Also, I think it might make more sense to present this in the larger context of the unusual speakers Bailey arranges. This doesn't appear to be an isolated event, after all. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 02:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing: Agree that we are in no rush on this. @Jayen466: The reason the incident got so much attention is precisely because of the device used: a fucksaw. As sourced in the proposed text above, a number of other media pieces use the term:
Gawker Media's extensive coverage also includes:
Bailey himself appears to know that word is a major component of the controversy. In his taped interview with the Chicago Tribune, he avoids saying it on camera ("I don't know if they used that word").
That said, the professor failed the “and how will this look?” test. A major university requires massive infusions of money, both from students ponying up $52,000 per annum (that’s “each year,” which I must spell out now that everyone’s studying orgasms instead of Latin) and from grateful alumni — gratitude that could conceivably be dampened by the image of Miss Kink being pleasured on a towel with a device called . . . called . . . well, I’m not allowed to even hint at its name. Left to my own devices, I would. But a newspaper, like a college, still has conventions. I can push those conventions, but part of my job is to keep my boss from angry phone calls. So while I still believe in the First Amendment, I also have a respect for the newspaper and its reputation, not to mention my own, what’s left of it. Were I to — oh for instance — write a column urging readers to drown puppies and then mail their damp carcasses to the governor to protest state finances, I would have enough savvy to pop into the editor’s office and give him a heads up. Sure, he might snip a line or two — but better to talk it out ahead of time than sweat it out later, as Professor Bailey is discovering. --Neil Steinberg, Northwestern will be hearing sex show talk for a long time .
The censoring conventions which Steinberg describes do not apply to Wikipedia or some other mainstream media. We should describe the incident and device without censorship. Calling it a "sex toy" doesn't really accurately describe that it was a construction-grade reciprocating saw used for gut rehabs and tearing out sheetrock, with a dildo replacing the saw blade. Hence the name fucksaw. Jokestress ( talk) 18:23, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I've done a more complete write-up of the controversy and its outcome, and reorganised the research section according to distinct topics. Please review. -- JN 466 03:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
@JN466: Your summary is pretty good. A couple of key elements are missing, though. The lead story in the Times Higher Education piece is a model here. See The week in higher education.
I'll add those newer sources to my proposed summary and additional analysis since the incident. Jokestress ( talk) 17:55, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Totally independent opinion - I just happened to be passing, and until I read this, I had no idea who Bailey was, or who these editors were, or what a 'fucksaw' was. IMHO, the section does not convey what happened in clear, encyclopaedic terms - specifically, it should
That's my 10p's worth, anyway. HTH us form a consensus / improve it. Chzz ► 18:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Having just come across this article and this story for the first time, I agree that it probably should be included in the article, but have moved it from the 'Research' section to the 'Appearances in news media' section. That seems more appropriate, as it was nothing to do with Prof Bailey's research activities. Robofish ( talk) 17:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
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I find this section, and it’s title, both messy and biased. First, ‘research’ and ‘criticisms’ is an extremely odd combination, and the section itself is comprised more of “views” than his research, which is much more extensive than just his quotes about people being within their rights to abort gay foetuses. Personal views are not “research”. Unfortunately it looks like some people have made ideologically motivated edits against Bailey, involving cherry picking of quotes, rather than actually representing his research (which is his main occupation). Trying to make bailey seem anti gay is just silly when in fact he’s consistently defended gay people. Consider the size of the paragraph about the fuck saw against the size of the paragraphs related to sexual orientation research. One incident gets more attention than 40 years of research. I would say his research and views sections should be separate from criticisms. Sxologist ( talk) 08:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
This section has been removed due to triple posting; see discussion at Talk:Andrea_James#Consideration_of_Andrea_James.27_1998_autogynephilia_confession
Sentence reads: "He is best known among scientists for his work on the etiology of sexual orientation, from which he concluded that homosexuality is substantially inherited". I think that's a misnomer. Bailey has consistently maintained that male sexual orientation (gay or straight) is very likely "inborn" or "innate", but he doesn't say it's "substantially inherited". I also think it's fair to say he's barely focused on women so really it should say male homosexuality. If anyone else has any comments let me know. Otherwise I might attempt a rewrite if there are no objections? Sxologist ( talk) 06:33, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
P.S. someone might like to add an auto archive on this page it's very long and has a few quibbles from a decade ago. Unless it's not going to be changed frequently enough for those to be archived. IDK what the standards are, but my OCD is tingling. Sxologist ( talk) 06:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure whether this belongs in the article but Bailey has just had a paper about "ROGD" retracted for failing to get adequate consent from the participants. He is spitting nails about it on Twitter.
DanielRigal ( talk) 19:45, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The Man Who Would Be Queen section seems to focus more on debunking and downplaying criticism than presenting it objectively. Two paragraphs had been dedicated to Alice Dreger's defense of the book, including a full sentence to describe her qualifications. On the other hand, critics are referred to as "transsexual professors." Instead of directly saying what the criticism is, the article offers "what might have motivated some to object to the book." I suggest adding relevant criticism from Julia Serano's Whipping Girl as it is a well cited academic text that is far more direct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.237.228 ( talk) 20:46, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
This article view Dr. Bailey in a very unfavorible light. "Following the publication of Bailey's book The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender Bending and Transsexualism, Northwestern University received many complaints from transsexual women Bailey interviewed, who complained that they didn’t know he was using them as research subjects and that distorted versions of their case histories would appear in his book." Bailey asserts that: a) the two women in question did know about the book ahead of time, and didn't complain untill after it was actually published dispite having seen it prior to publishing, b) the research for the book did not constitute formal research (which was one of the main accusations leveled at him) In addition, this wikipedia article also leaves out the fact that he was exonerated of all charges in the inquiry by the Northwestern Research Review Board. Cite: Bailey's own remarks in the Northwestern Daily (campus newspaper) In addition, he mentions all the verious drawbacks to his work on bisexual men, and only uses it as a basis to suggest additional testing. Now I am unaware of the truth of the matter either way, however I am very certain that this article does not portray him in an evan handed manner persuient to the wikipedia standards, and I call the articles bias into question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.143.217.163 ( talk • contribs)
"By the end of the book, Bailey has personally "cured" Danny of his "disorder" by forcing Danny to conform to gender roles. " This is not at all the approach Bailey takes in "The Man Who Would Be Queen." At the end of the book, Bailey sees Danny again after several years, and feels confident that Danny will grow up to be a gay man. Bailey never attempts to change Danny's nature in the book, and his other research suggests that he certainly does not have anything agaist the gay population. This article is clearly not impartial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.53.95.213 ( talk • contribs)
I've removed this sentence because it simply isn't accurate: "That piece, title "Gay Straight or Lying: Bisexuality Revisited" took an oft-repeated phrase Bailey uses to claim that male bisexuals are "lying."" Please read note 3 in this press release by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. They're critical of the study, yet they acknowledge that the word "lying" is not based on any of Bailey's statments or anything in the study, but is simply "spin" added by the New York Times. If discussion of the New York Times piece is reinsterted back into the article, it should be rewritten to reflect this fact. Peter G Werner 00:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Was the study performed in 2005 or 2002? [11] claims the latter, saying "Mr. Bailey's accusations are actually based on an old 2002 conference paper (see below), extended by adding a few more subjects and then recently warming it over and spiffing it up for re-publication in a second-tier psychology journal." Mdwh 15:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed this text again. There is no citation that proves that Bailey used the phrase to claim that gay and bisexual people are lying. Its merely a thought provoking title that poses a question. The accusation that Bailey claims gay and bisexual people are lying is critical and controversial and unsourced. As such, it needs to be removed until it can be cited properly. Avruch 16:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the NPOV tag from this article. If someone wishes to add it back, please specify areas of the article which you believe do not appear to conform to policy. Jokestress 16:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
On December 16th an anonymous editor changed the description of Dr. Bailey's mentor at the University of Texas, Austin, Dr. Lee Willerman from " hereditarian and eugenics researcher" to "behavior genetics researcher". Since Dr. Willerman was from 1974 on a member of the American Eugenics Society and his academic work is described as " eugenics-themed hypotheses", I wondered why the change. In the absence of any new/changed information on Dr. Willerman, should it be reverted? CyntWorkStuff 21:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
{{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}}
along with the required parameters to the article - see
Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Hfarmer 15:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC) Just some suggestions for futures editors to think about. -- Hfarmer 15:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Note: tagged before I read this talk page, just based on reading the article. The use of "Shockingly" and "This represents only one of the inherent flaws in the logical formulation of his theories, as well as his own personal hypocrisy and ethical violations ..." are clearly not NPOV. CarlFink 16:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
oops, this was meant to go into a new section ... May I humbly suggest that the expression "the vast majority of", say, scientists, is right up there with the expression "virtually proven" for being anti-scientific - in fact, it's right up there with those who hold things in faith.
This article mentions wikipedia. Criticism of a Gender Theory, and a Scientist Under Siege -- 70.168.11.81 02:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The introduction to the section, Research and Publications, is clearly biased. I, therefore, tagged it as without NPOV. It quite obviously highlights the most controversial aspects of Bailey's research without really explaining, in a detailed manner, the research he actually conducted. Once his research is described adequately (just the facts, m'am) the tag may be removed. Of course, this is not to say that the controversial elements of his research should not be included here -- they absolutely should. But they must be in a larger, more balanced framework. ask123 15:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the standard policy on WP regarding using an internet forum as a citable source? Specifically regarding source number 19. Also, it seems a number of the citations lead to websites of interest groups (i.e. planetout, outintoronto, etc.) In a controversial situation where they can be expected to have a biased view (as they don't present themselves as unbiased sources) are these acceptable sources to cite? They may be, I don't know all the policies on point. I've added a number of citation needed tags throughout the article to sections and particular phrases where a contention is made that is unsupported by a citation. Avruch 21:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
... needs to be merged into The Man Who Would Be Queen and summarized here, as per WP:CFORK. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC) I removed the sections that went into detailed summary of the book itself. I think the main article on this book covers all of that in a similar fasion, so I didn't move anything. I left the sections dealing mainly with the controversy, because I think it is largely this controversy and follow on controversies that make Bailey notable. Would you agree that this material should remain, or at least be modified but not deleted? Avruch 18:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Seems about right from the porn industry point of view... (This is a discussion page right?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.75.77 ( talk) 23:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Quoting from the article: Bailey is well-known for research involving biology and sexual orientation. In the early 1990s he coauthored with Richard Pillard a series of twin studies which examined the rate of concordance of sexual identity among monozygotic twins (52% concordance), dizygotic twins of the same sex (22%), non-twin siblings of the same sex, and adoptive siblings of the same sex (11%).[2][3] Is it just me, or there's something wrong there... ? There's a 11% concordance of sexual orientation... ? That means that 90% of the time, if you'd take two boys for instance, there'd be one homosexual and one heterosexual ? I mean... either I don't understand what is meant to be understood, or there's something truly wrong with those numbers. Seigneur101 ( talk) 22:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of February 3, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:
Thank you very much for your patience with the currently backlogged GA nominations process. With currently 200 or so unreviewed candidates, the project is in dire need to more reviewers. Anyone can review a GA candidate, so please consider taking on a review that interests you. If you need any assistance, please don't hesitate to ask me. In the meantime, I await your work on the requested improvements.
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Van Tucky 00:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Working on responding.
Alright -
I'm a little concerned about the NPOVness of the introduction, although I think it is an accurate characterization of what it is that makes him most notable. Thoughts? Avruch talk 00:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that is better. I wasn't sure about using an acronym in the intro (or at all, really) which is why I didn't just say LGBT. I'll acknowledge for this page that I've received some concerns from an interested party by e-mail, but it will take me some time to review the substance there and I'd like the evaluation of the article based on GA criteria to continue using the current version. Thanks, Avruch talk 00:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
In general, I hope we can address the things the person who has emailed us has brought up. But none of them give me serious pause when assessing the current state of the article compared to the GA criteria. It definitely meets it. Congrats, and thanks for your patience! Van Tucky 00:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Its with regret that I've removed the listing of this article as a "Good Article." I think it has become evident, based on the recent history of this article and its current state, that this article is not at a point where it can be considered among the "Good Articles" of Wikipedia. I think that there are clear issues of stability, of compliance with core policies (particularly NPOV) and of rigor in referencing. Avruch 01:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I have no problem at all with a lead that summarizes all the relevant info. Personally, I think the whole story is a bit too complex to fit into a lead. However, if you can come up with text that describes the accusations and the results, then I have no objection. But, putting in the summary only a one-sided summary that makes it sound like he was guilty and that his university is engaged in a cover-up, then you are violating
WP:BLP. I think it would be useful to suggest some text here on the talk page before reverting again.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
01:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I honestly hadn't thought of that. You're right though; posting mere allegations does seem a violation of BLP, at least in spirit. A great many people have very strong feelings about this, however, and I can't imagine how (realistically) such a consensus could emerge for it. The suggestion also strikes me as an issue for WP rather than one just for this page, no?
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
01:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Very insightful. For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that there are indeed people who want very much for readers to infer that Bailey's work is discredited. In fact, I am right now in the middle of a content dispute leaking onto several related pages (including Bailey's) where casting doubt appears exactly to be the goal: If something is negative about Bailey it must be correct; and if something is positive, then it must be part of the cabal of his cronies. I have only recently started in the wiki world, but the Bailey and related pages seem all to have been created at the height of the controversy they created around his book. Personally, I can't help but wonder if this crew co-opted wikipedia to serve as a platform for their negative campaigning. But, that's still only my opinion, and I have to recognize their rights here as much as my own. (Although I haven't had the feeling that they would accord the same to me, but that's another matter.) As for the scientific community; some agree with Bailey, some disagree (the same as before his book). Download the Dreger paper; it's like reading a spy novel.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
02:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The article reads, 'He is best known among scientists for his work on the possible biological basis of sexual orientation, which suggests that homosexuality is substantially inherited.' There are two problems with this. One, it is not supported by a citation. Two, it is worded wrongly; scientific work cannot by itself 'suggest' anything about anything, only the scientists who interpret it can. If Bailey himself has said that his work suggests that homosexuality is substantially inherited, then a quote to this effect should be added. Skoojal ( talk) 07:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The wording is now fine. Thank you. Skoojal ( talk) 08:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
There should be little doubt that 'critics' is a much more neutral term than 'detractors.' There do not appear to be any good grounds for using the latter term instead of the former. Skoojal ( talk) 23:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if there is a word that is entirely acceptable to everyone in a complicated dispute. My understanding was that "critics say..." is a weasel word. "Detractors" and "supporters" just identify who is on what side, and I don't think there is much debate about who is indeed on what side.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
23:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
'Detractors' is a sneer word, so please don't use it. Your remarks above are not to the point and do not justify the use of a sneer word. Skoojal ( talk) 23:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm open to input from others.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
00:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
This shouldn't be a difficult issue to decide. Identifying the two sides as 'critics' and 'supporters' should be fine. Calling Bailey's critics 'detractors' makes their criticisms of him sound too personal. And note that I'm not saying that their criticisms are not personal, necessarily, just that the article shouldn't use language that emphasises this side of things. Skoojal ( talk) 00:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
(section copied from User talk:Dicklyon#TheLibrarian's rampage now that I'm off 3RR block):
Now that I'm out of the picture for a bit, it ( MarionTheLibrarian ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has accelerated to full speed. See for example this diff in the Bailey bio. By replacing the allegation of research misconduct with the other allegation of having sex with a subject, TheLibrarian figures it has a good reason to say that "Northwestern’s Provost found no basis for pursuing the complaint." What the cited source actually says is:
A NU committee looking into the allegations against Bailey told Kieltyka, in a Nov. 12 letter, that it was proceeding with a "full investigation of the allegation that professor Bailey did not obtain the informed consent of research subjects." / "I concur, and have directed that an investigation committee be established," NU vice president for research C. Bradley Moore stated. / But the committee decided not to pursue the allegations involving sex, a decision Conway criticized.
TheLibrarian continues with the phrase saying that it "did not merit further investigation.", sourced to the famous Dreger attack piece in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. If you look at what she actually said there, you find that she attributes that line to Lynn Conway's site, and if you check there, you find that it is the recollection of a person who saw another unspecified person's letter from the above mentioned C. Bradley Moore. So much for the Librarian respecting WP:BLP and WP:RS!
And that was just the first in a string of edits. They all follow the same pattern that it started (as WriteMakesRight ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 99.231.67.224 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 99.227.88.244 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and probably also 68.55.67.104 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) in December 2007) which is to clean up the image of members of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (aka the infamous Clarke Institute of Psychiatry and its Kurt Freund Phallometric Lab) and editors of the Archives of Sexual Behavior, while dumping on their transwoman critics such as Andrea James, Lynn Conway, and Deirdre McCloskey.
It would be great if someone more clever than myself would find a way to restrain it. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Edits like this one are way over the top. Asserting unsupported factoids to bolster Dreger's "attack on the critics of Bailey" as it is called in one of the commentaries, is not acceptable. I'll follow the suggestion above to take you to WP:NPOVN tomorrow, when I'm unblocked, for this latest string of edits that essentially impugn all the critics of Bailey, which you feel is somehow more fair than mentioning things about Bailey himself. Dicklyon ( talk) 15:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
And then in this edit you make up a name for the cited page, trying to give the impression that it supports what you cited it for. Sheesh! Dicklyon ( talk) 15:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Every one of my edits is correctly sourced, putting a one-to-one correspondance between allegation and outcome. Moving past Dicklyon's incivil labelling of Dreger's publication as an attack piece, information from articles published in peer-reviewed journals meet WP:V, even if Dicklyon believes that the journal contains a conspiracy against Conway (a long-time friend of Dicklyon's who comes out looking bad in Dreger's article). Rather than revert Dicklyon's changes, any input would be appreciated from folks who have opinions on which description of the allegations against Bailey and of Dreger's article better meets NPOV. (Incidentally, the title to this section also strikes me as rather incivil.)
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Folks - it appears as though some of you involved in this dispute on Wikipedia are also involved in this dispute in your professional lives. Generally speaking Wikipedia discourages you from editing articles in which you have a strong conflict of interest - i.e. your interest in bringing the article into a neutral, referenced state conflicts with your interest in reflecting your view of the subject. Clearly Jokestress is involved. You should consider whether its appropriate for you to continue to edit this article, based on your involvement in this conflict outside of Wikipedia, and if you are likely to be identified as a part of this dispute you should add yourself to the talkpage using the {{ Notable Wikipedian}} template. Avruch 21:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable about parts of this recent edit.
I would be happy to have more information on #2, and to hear your thoughts (especially Dick's) about both of my concerns.
Please note that I'm not just fixing what I perceive as significant problems because I want them to stay fixed -- thus we discuss first, and then edit. I invite any editors who happen to agree with me to exercise the same kind of restraint. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 04:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
In its latest edit, TheLibrarian has again obscured that fact that most of the commentaries on Dreger are specifically critical of the Dreger article. By putting "twenty-three commentaries regarding multiple aspects of the controversy" where we had "twenty-three commentaries on Dreger's account were also published, many of them critical of her analysis", we lose the point that the commentaries were as much about Dreger's hatchet job on the critics as about the previously underlying controversy; this point still comes through in the titles in the footnote, but I don't see why it's more "neutral" to omit it. And the edit certainly was not in response to anything on this talk page, was it? Dicklyon ( talk) 01:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Rather than revert what was a very awkward rewrite with triple repetition of "Bailey's critics," I put in a bit, from the sources, about who was making each complaint. I checked the sources carefully, edited the text to be consistent with them, and added URLs where I could so that others can verify and fix better if needed. I added a phrase at the end to make it clear that some of the commentaries are about Dreger more than about the Bailey book. I didn't say many, though one could. OK? This is perhaps too much on the controversy. As in the Conway article, it might make sense to shorten it, linking the controversy page. In that case, omitting Dreger's analysis would make it easy to avoid mentioning the additional controversy that she started. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Dick,
You seem to favor an unqualified quotation attributed to McCloskey: "Nothing we have done, I believe, and certainly nothing I have done, overstepped any boundaries of fair comment on a book and an author..."
At least a significant minority of our readers will know about, or find out about, Andrea James' "deliberately offensive satire" and will think of this incident when they read any sweeping self-exonerations from critics.
The major problem with using the quotation as a statement of absolution is that it mispresents McCloskey's actual position and makes it appear that she endorses the attack against the children as "fair comment". Remember that McCloskey says, "I am appalled by Andrea James’s vulgar satire using his children", [16] and that nearly every prominent critic has made a similar statement at some point. How many times do you suppose McCloskey has already replied to offended readers of the NYT article that "I am appalled by Andrea James’s vulgar satire using his children, and I have said so publicly"? Shall we negligently inflict more of that thankless task on her?
So while I'd be fine with including the general concept, and sourcing it to this statement (and ideally adding an extra ref to a similar statement by Conway or Serano), I don't think that it's either fair or accurate to put McCloskey in the position of appearing to assert that every single critic is as innocent as a spring lamb, because she has publicly stated the opposite position.
Instead of this direct quotation, I think we want to include a general statement like "Critics believe that their actions against Bailey and his book represent legitimate comment on a topic of public interest." The difference here is that this doesn't put McCloskey in the false position of endorsing every possible critic. It also appears to be accurate, because each individual critic does appear to believe that her own actions were acceptable, whatever other people might have done. For example, doubtless James thinks her own actions constitute fair comment, else she would have long since issued a public apology for her equally public offense, and every defense of her actions would begin with something like, "I am sorry I used his children, because it hurt them, because no one's kids should be blamed for their parents' views, and because the scandal over my satirical piece distracts people from my real message, which is...."
Will this work for you? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
This article includes the 'Scientific Misconduct' category. The inclusion of this category might be regarded as questionable or non-neutral since it implies that Bailey is, in fact, guilty of scientific misconduct. Exactly what are the grounds for this article being categorized this way? The same question can be asked of the 'Academic Scandals' category, since it could be read as judging the issue of whether it is Bailey or his critics whose behavior is the 'scandal.' Skoojal ( talk) 22:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
This phrase in the lede is inaccurate and unprovable. I don't think we have any evidence that Bailey isn't best known among scientists for the accusations of having sex with a patient/research subject. There's also no evidence that scientists know him for something different than non-scientists. I propose we change this to simply "known." If we wish to keep this slanted and unproven claim, it needs a source. Jokestress ( talk) 15:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Because Jokestress has herself included the phrase "best known" in several of the WP bio's she has written none with any source whatsoever, her demand that other editors provide such sources is hypocritical until she does the same with her own edits. Examples of Jokestress' use of the very term she decries include
Susan Bradley and
Lori Brotto.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
16:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Not "other editors." Just you. At least, I have not seen any other editor so frequently accuse third parties of doing what you have done yourself. Moreover, none of my comments were limited to mere accusation: For each instance of hypocritical remarks you have made, I have provided examples, including the specific pages and diffs where you engaged in precisely the behavior for which you were admonishing others.
As for what Bailey is best known, because it is only the scientists (including me) who knew Bailey both before and after your efforts to re-cast him, it is only the scientists and not you are in the position to know what he is known for. Moreover, according to CBSnews producers: "[H]is work is highly regarded by all of the researchers in the field who we spoke with, and we felt that he was a very worthy person to discuss these issues."
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
18:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing's point of view is well taken. To me, "scientists" means sexologists. (Admittedly, that is where I am sitting.) The import to general scientists, as WhatamIdoing says, is the academic freedom issue. I would respond, however, that the academic freedom issues do not contribute very much to the notability of Bailey so much as to the notability of those who have attacked academic freedom, using Bailey as one of their soapboxes.
As an analogy, Joseph McCarthy's attacks on freedoms established the notability of Sen. McCarthy, not the notability of his victims. The subjects of his attacks were already notable for whatever it was that brought them into McCarthy's crosshairs. Historical/encyclopedic treatments of McCarthy's victims include mention of the events, but concentrate on the subjects' accomplishments on their own. Said another way: McCarthy has little (but not nothing) notable other than his attacks, but his victims do; Andrea James has little (but not nothing) notable other than her attacks, but her victims do. So, it is my opinion that issues pertaining to attacks on academic freedom should be linked to Andrea James, not each of the many people on her long list of enemies, which are available on her website. (Incidentally, McCarthy also had a list, made famous in his Wheeling speech.)
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
16:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
— James Cantor ( talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 22:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
"Best known among scientists" could be changed to "well known." I do not think it is yet clear if Bailey is well known for the controversy, although surely the article should (and clearly does) address the controversy. ProudAGP ( talk) 04:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no reason to state what a person is known for, unless there's a source to support that. It's better to just say what they've done. The current statement of what Bailey is best known for is supposedly supported by three papers by himself, which seems unlikely. It's more likely that he is now best known for his book controversy, but there's probably not a source to support that, so leave it alone. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I intend to remove this sentence unless someone can provide a convincing explanation why it should stay. This fact has been pushed as innuendo that Bailey resigned because of the book controversy, and both he and his university have denied this. That someone resigned as chairman of a department is hardly by itself worth including. I'll wait a day or so. ProudAGP ( talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Without the context of the controversy, it makes little sense that it's there. With the context, it is innuendo. Just because something was newsworthy by the press, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be here. Lots of things have appeared about Bailey that can't be on here, due to room. But your position is not surprising. Let's see what others say. ProudAGP ( talk) 19:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
From the New York Times piece: "In October 2004, Dr. Bailey stepped down as chairman of the psychology department. He declined to say why, and a spokesman for Northwestern would say only that the change in status had nothing to do with the book." ProudAGP ( talk) 20:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
From The Chronicle of Higher Education: "Meanwhile, Mr. Bailey resigned as chairman of the university's psychology department in October, said Alan K. Cubbage, a Northwestern spokesman, who added that the change had nothing to do with the investigation." It is pretty outrageous that early versions of this page lacked this qualification, in my opinion. How 'bout you Dicklyon? I continue to contend that this fact makes the resignation sentence something better omitted. ProudAGP ( talk) 21:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I have added back the Notable Wikipedian template for User:ProudAGP, because that editor is significantly related to this article. We can discuss this here. Jokestress ( talk) 19:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
How about Lynn Conway's friend and ex(?)-employee, Dicklyon? ProudAGP ( talk) 21:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I find it extremely strange that someone can be stated to be significantly related to the subject of this article without any evidence whatsoever being presented to support this. Someone tell me why I shouldn't remove the mention of ProudAGP, because I'm strongly inclined to do that. Skoojal ( talk) 10:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
To reply to Jokestress: ProudAGP's stating that "I am not sure the tag is right" is not evidence that it is right. That ProudAGP himself or herself does not currently object to the tag does not convince me that it should stay; adding such tags without real evidence appears without justification (and I don't consider a couple of vague comments by ProudAGP to be real evidence). I am not removing it on behalf of ProudAGP, with whom I have had little or no contact. I suggest that, rather than edit warring over this, you seek more involvement by other editors. Skoojal ( talk) 22:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The named source says: "A transsexual woman who is described in a book by J. Michael Bailey, chairman of the psychology department at Northwestern University, says he had sex with her while she was an unwitting subject of his research."
JMS's statement that she was "an unwitting subject of his research" does not actually mean that JMS was an unwitting subject of his research.
The existing text -- "when she was an unwitting subject of his research" -- will be reasonably interpreted by our readers as a factual statement that JMS truly was (1) unwitting and (2) a subject of research.
Every source that has mentioned this since 2004 has denied both (1) and (2) -- the first, because it's beyond belief that a person that is actively debating Bailey's representation of her in his book could possibly be claim that the book was a surprise, and the second, because chatting with people in a bar, or taking oral histories, or inviting them to give presentations to your classes, does not make them "subjects of his research" and therefore JMS can't have been a "subject of his research".
I'm open to many options, but we shouldn't be falsely affirming the widely rejected claim that JMS was a subject of IRB-controlled research. Also, the specific sentence in this article is practically word-for-word out of the source, which I think is a WP:COPYVIO concern. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't have the time to find reliable sources for this (nor the necessary lack of personal bias), but would like to leave the ideia on the air: most lesbian porn is awful for women - because it's targeted to a male audience. Personally, for me that sort of pornographic material is so excessively fake, forced and far from what's desirable to a woman that it has the exact opposite effect it is intended to. Normally when a woman wants lesbian porn she has quite some trouble until finding sources by women for women. I would bet my head in which kind Mr. Bailey chose for his... research. Anasofiapaixao ( talk) 19:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Northwestern has announced the first phase of the outcome of Bailey's live fucksaw seminar.
Proposed text:
In May 2011, Northwestern administration cancelled the sexuality course for 2012. President Morton Schapiro said that while professors have the privilege of academic freedom, they also have to act responsibly. A Northwestern spokesperson said the school was considering moving the class to another department, saying, "Courses in human sexuality are offered in a variety of academic departments in other universities, and Northwestern is reviewing how such a course best fits into the University’s curriculum."
Comments welcome. Jokestress ( talk) 19:55, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
I've recently begun a personal study on the whole Bailey book/research controversy and I decided to come to Wikipedia to harvest some information. I always make a trip to the talk page so I can attempt to figure out just how bad the NPOV issues are on the particular article. I notice that there are a few VERY vocal people on this talk page, not that that's a problem, but sometimes it's indicative of an imbalance of opinion. Statements like this are always red flags:
After taking a trip to Jokestress' profile page I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary (no extreme activism, etc.) which could indicate extreme bias. I moved on and continued researching, eventually landed on an article in the New York Times. In the article I was appalled to find that an Andrea James harassed Bailey's family in horrible ways:
Also, from Alice Dreger's blog (I know she's not objective either, but what she says is disturbing, including the quotes from emails sent to her from Andrea James):
This is absolutely disgusting behavior and I cannot believe that Andrea James is allowed to comment on this article because of her extreme, horrible, POV. Targeting children to make a point is NEVER acceptable.
There are other LGBT activists on here too, for example, CyntWorkStuff:
That doesn't sit right with me, her language smacks of Wikipedia activism, not objectivity.
I don't have a problem with activists on Wikipedia as long as they are objective, but I wish those editing had less to gain by tarring and feathering the person that the article is about.
69.114.11.47 ( talk) 20:41, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Since the recent fucksaw demonstration is making news internationally, and since several thousand readers came to this article today to learn more, I have gathered some of the more prominent sources (WSJ, WaPo, NYTimes, NPR, major Chicago media outlets) and prepared a proposed synopsis for possible inclusion in the article:
Anyone so inclined is welcome to add this (with any revisions you deem appropriate). Should we also mention it in the intro? Jokestress ( talk) 04:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
James Cantor, as the editor who started his wikipedia career by posting and citing your own inflammatory comments on the WP bio of the editor known as Jokestress, you have no standing to be criticizing her. She posted what looks to me like a reasonable proposal here on the talk page, and asked for improvements. Focus on the content please. On the face of it, her proposal looks sensible and balanced. Propose a rewording if you have one. Dicklyon ( talk) 05:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I wonder if it might be better to wait a while (at least a week or so) before adding anything to the article. "Breaking news" isn't exactly within Wikipedia's remit, and it sounds like more sources might be available before much longer. I don't think we want to be updating this every time someone at Northwestern gives another interview to the media. Perhaps this would be a good moment to remember that WP:There is no deadline.
On the point of the proposed text, I'm not convinced that we need to include the names of any of the people involved (except Bailey, naturally).
Also, I think it might make more sense to present this in the larger context of the unusual speakers Bailey arranges. This doesn't appear to be an isolated event, after all. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 02:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing: Agree that we are in no rush on this. @Jayen466: The reason the incident got so much attention is precisely because of the device used: a fucksaw. As sourced in the proposed text above, a number of other media pieces use the term:
Gawker Media's extensive coverage also includes:
Bailey himself appears to know that word is a major component of the controversy. In his taped interview with the Chicago Tribune, he avoids saying it on camera ("I don't know if they used that word").
That said, the professor failed the “and how will this look?” test. A major university requires massive infusions of money, both from students ponying up $52,000 per annum (that’s “each year,” which I must spell out now that everyone’s studying orgasms instead of Latin) and from grateful alumni — gratitude that could conceivably be dampened by the image of Miss Kink being pleasured on a towel with a device called . . . called . . . well, I’m not allowed to even hint at its name. Left to my own devices, I would. But a newspaper, like a college, still has conventions. I can push those conventions, but part of my job is to keep my boss from angry phone calls. So while I still believe in the First Amendment, I also have a respect for the newspaper and its reputation, not to mention my own, what’s left of it. Were I to — oh for instance — write a column urging readers to drown puppies and then mail their damp carcasses to the governor to protest state finances, I would have enough savvy to pop into the editor’s office and give him a heads up. Sure, he might snip a line or two — but better to talk it out ahead of time than sweat it out later, as Professor Bailey is discovering. --Neil Steinberg, Northwestern will be hearing sex show talk for a long time .
The censoring conventions which Steinberg describes do not apply to Wikipedia or some other mainstream media. We should describe the incident and device without censorship. Calling it a "sex toy" doesn't really accurately describe that it was a construction-grade reciprocating saw used for gut rehabs and tearing out sheetrock, with a dildo replacing the saw blade. Hence the name fucksaw. Jokestress ( talk) 18:23, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I've done a more complete write-up of the controversy and its outcome, and reorganised the research section according to distinct topics. Please review. -- JN 466 03:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
@JN466: Your summary is pretty good. A couple of key elements are missing, though. The lead story in the Times Higher Education piece is a model here. See The week in higher education.
I'll add those newer sources to my proposed summary and additional analysis since the incident. Jokestress ( talk) 17:55, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Totally independent opinion - I just happened to be passing, and until I read this, I had no idea who Bailey was, or who these editors were, or what a 'fucksaw' was. IMHO, the section does not convey what happened in clear, encyclopaedic terms - specifically, it should
That's my 10p's worth, anyway. HTH us form a consensus / improve it. Chzz ► 18:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Having just come across this article and this story for the first time, I agree that it probably should be included in the article, but have moved it from the 'Research' section to the 'Appearances in news media' section. That seems more appropriate, as it was nothing to do with Prof Bailey's research activities. Robofish ( talk) 17:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
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I find this section, and it’s title, both messy and biased. First, ‘research’ and ‘criticisms’ is an extremely odd combination, and the section itself is comprised more of “views” than his research, which is much more extensive than just his quotes about people being within their rights to abort gay foetuses. Personal views are not “research”. Unfortunately it looks like some people have made ideologically motivated edits against Bailey, involving cherry picking of quotes, rather than actually representing his research (which is his main occupation). Trying to make bailey seem anti gay is just silly when in fact he’s consistently defended gay people. Consider the size of the paragraph about the fuck saw against the size of the paragraphs related to sexual orientation research. One incident gets more attention than 40 years of research. I would say his research and views sections should be separate from criticisms. Sxologist ( talk) 08:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
This section has been removed due to triple posting; see discussion at Talk:Andrea_James#Consideration_of_Andrea_James.27_1998_autogynephilia_confession
Sentence reads: "He is best known among scientists for his work on the etiology of sexual orientation, from which he concluded that homosexuality is substantially inherited". I think that's a misnomer. Bailey has consistently maintained that male sexual orientation (gay or straight) is very likely "inborn" or "innate", but he doesn't say it's "substantially inherited". I also think it's fair to say he's barely focused on women so really it should say male homosexuality. If anyone else has any comments let me know. Otherwise I might attempt a rewrite if there are no objections? Sxologist ( talk) 06:33, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
P.S. someone might like to add an auto archive on this page it's very long and has a few quibbles from a decade ago. Unless it's not going to be changed frequently enough for those to be archived. IDK what the standards are, but my OCD is tingling. Sxologist ( talk) 06:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure whether this belongs in the article but Bailey has just had a paper about "ROGD" retracted for failing to get adequate consent from the participants. He is spitting nails about it on Twitter.
DanielRigal ( talk) 19:45, 18 June 2023 (UTC)