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This page has archives. Sections older than 360 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present. |
Long discussion of an unresolved issue in the text was archived with no explanation of why, presumably age. The problem still festers in the article, though -- misleading or misinforming readers, depending on point of view -- so here's a potted summary.
"/ɲ/, /ʃ/, /ʎ/, /dz/, /ts/ are always geminated intervocalically" reads like a claim that e.g. foglio contains /ʎ/, which is realized phonetically [ʎː] (or [ʎʎ]). The standard view is very straightforward, however: /ʎʎ/ is realized [ʎː]. Nothing is (inexplicably, magically...) "geminated"; the phonological unit in question simply IS a geminate realized as such.
For example, there is no singleton phoneme /ʃ/ in Italian. There can be no structure */paʃe/, for example, because "/ʃ/ is always long" (obviously mis-stated ingenuously for the nonce). The phonetic form [paːʃe] pace does exist for millions of Italians (alongside non-weakened [paːtʃe]), but that phonetic [ʃ] results from application of an allophonic weakening rule /tʃ/ → [ʃ]/V_V, not as a realization of /ʃ/. The verb pasce exists as well, pronounced [paʃːe]. Thus pasce [paʃːe] and pace [paːʃe] can contrast on the basis of internal consonant length (vowel length is epiphenomenal, and not distinctive), but not as geminate/long vs. singleton/short articulation of the same phoneme. The form pasce contains a phoneme intrinsically long -- geminate, if one insists -- not /ʃ/ that somehow lengthens/geminates.
Gemination does occur in Italian word-initially under syntactic gemination: a casa [ak'ka:sa] 'at home' vs. non-geminated la casa [la'ka:sa] 'the house/home'. '
Upshot: word-internal consonants phonetically long or geminate are simply realizations of phonemic/underlying geminates -- ricco /rikko/ is pronounced with [kk], geminate projected from geminate. Totally banal. The same for /ɲɲ/, /ʃʃ/, /ʎʎ/, /ddz/, /tts/. Barefoot through the chollas ( talk) 19:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Not only would a blanket use of length colons, if carried through, more appropriately contain the symbol /ӕː/ than /ӕ/, but if one were to continue the logic of this approach ad absurdum then the theoretical arguments could be said also to indicate the desirability of length colons incorporated in the diphthongs giving /pleːɪ, rəːʊ, kɑːʊ/ etc for play, row, cow etc. Cf Gimson 1962 §704 (e). It can even be argued that relative to other languages English /m, n, ŋ/ and /l/ are long except in such situations as the vocalic phonemes also are shortened. So why not a blanket-colon transcription with /mː, nː, ŋː/ and /lː/? The Gimson 1962 decision to indicate especially the qualitative opposition, at the same time noting quantity by the length mark for vowels is one of essentially the same order.See [1].
the structure of lascio contains an inherently geminate/long consonantis the view upheld by the majority of scholars then the phonemic analysis in this article should reflect that.
Canepari opts for /ˈpiʦʦa/ /ˈɡaʣʣa/ to try to salvage pizza and gazza from the usual imbroglio.The problem is that only the stop is geminated: [ˈpit̚tsa, ˈɡad̚dza]. The fricative element is short.
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
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This page has archives. Sections older than 360 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present. |
Long discussion of an unresolved issue in the text was archived with no explanation of why, presumably age. The problem still festers in the article, though -- misleading or misinforming readers, depending on point of view -- so here's a potted summary.
"/ɲ/, /ʃ/, /ʎ/, /dz/, /ts/ are always geminated intervocalically" reads like a claim that e.g. foglio contains /ʎ/, which is realized phonetically [ʎː] (or [ʎʎ]). The standard view is very straightforward, however: /ʎʎ/ is realized [ʎː]. Nothing is (inexplicably, magically...) "geminated"; the phonological unit in question simply IS a geminate realized as such.
For example, there is no singleton phoneme /ʃ/ in Italian. There can be no structure */paʃe/, for example, because "/ʃ/ is always long" (obviously mis-stated ingenuously for the nonce). The phonetic form [paːʃe] pace does exist for millions of Italians (alongside non-weakened [paːtʃe]), but that phonetic [ʃ] results from application of an allophonic weakening rule /tʃ/ → [ʃ]/V_V, not as a realization of /ʃ/. The verb pasce exists as well, pronounced [paʃːe]. Thus pasce [paʃːe] and pace [paːʃe] can contrast on the basis of internal consonant length (vowel length is epiphenomenal, and not distinctive), but not as geminate/long vs. singleton/short articulation of the same phoneme. The form pasce contains a phoneme intrinsically long -- geminate, if one insists -- not /ʃ/ that somehow lengthens/geminates.
Gemination does occur in Italian word-initially under syntactic gemination: a casa [ak'ka:sa] 'at home' vs. non-geminated la casa [la'ka:sa] 'the house/home'. '
Upshot: word-internal consonants phonetically long or geminate are simply realizations of phonemic/underlying geminates -- ricco /rikko/ is pronounced with [kk], geminate projected from geminate. Totally banal. The same for /ɲɲ/, /ʃʃ/, /ʎʎ/, /ddz/, /tts/. Barefoot through the chollas ( talk) 19:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Not only would a blanket use of length colons, if carried through, more appropriately contain the symbol /ӕː/ than /ӕ/, but if one were to continue the logic of this approach ad absurdum then the theoretical arguments could be said also to indicate the desirability of length colons incorporated in the diphthongs giving /pleːɪ, rəːʊ, kɑːʊ/ etc for play, row, cow etc. Cf Gimson 1962 §704 (e). It can even be argued that relative to other languages English /m, n, ŋ/ and /l/ are long except in such situations as the vocalic phonemes also are shortened. So why not a blanket-colon transcription with /mː, nː, ŋː/ and /lː/? The Gimson 1962 decision to indicate especially the qualitative opposition, at the same time noting quantity by the length mark for vowels is one of essentially the same order.See [1].
the structure of lascio contains an inherently geminate/long consonantis the view upheld by the majority of scholars then the phonemic analysis in this article should reflect that.
Canepari opts for /ˈpiʦʦa/ /ˈɡaʣʣa/ to try to salvage pizza and gazza from the usual imbroglio.The problem is that only the stop is geminated: [ˈpit̚tsa, ˈɡad̚dza]. The fricative element is short.