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Someone with a good grasp of these events might expand this article, with a generous supply of Main article:... headings to blocks of text, and tie together many small articles on episodes (at "What links here" etc) within the general framework. The result? a great help to the Wikipedia reader. -- Wetman 07:37, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
By 1503, Louis, having been defeated at the Battle of Cerignola and Battle of Garigliano, was forced to withdraw from Naples, which was left under the control of the Spanish viceroy, Ramon de Cardona.
Was this particular viceroy not Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba? qp10qp 23:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
If no one minds, I'd like to increase the "Italy 1494" map size here to at 250px from the recently down-sized 200px. I try to design maps and their text at a sufficient size to be read directly within the article. As I mention on my User Page, I believe that the maps should be tailored to the article so that, for example, the reader easily find specific locations (e.g. Naples) without having to click 2 or 3 times to get a map close-up.
Which is a long-winded way to saying that the map does best at 250px (or higher), so I'd like to move it up a bit in size in no one minds. MapMaster 03:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn´t the map that is used in the german WIKI be better and more accurate than the one used here in the article about the Italian Wars and the 1494 Italian War? article http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Italy_1494_shepherd.jpg ConjurerDragon ( talk) 09:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The "Italy 1494" could use some improvements in the color palette. The Duchy of Milan looks like a big lake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.39.118.210 ( talk) 06:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure the Spaniards weren't using Tercio tactics in the Italian wars - they were certainly putting the Arquebusiers to good effect, but Michael Howard puts the date of the reorganisation into 3000 men tercios at 1534, and Jose Gonzalez de Leon at 1536. Either way, I think the Tercios came a little later. Do you want me to perhaps do a little rewrite to accomodate this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.233.135 ( talk • contribs)
Oh please. Wargaming babble, as googling for the phrase in quotes immediately reveals. Enthusiast sites like http://www.balagan.org.uk/ to the contrary, when Sir Charles Oman uses the phrase in History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century it is as "the great Italian Wars", as one might say "the devastating First World War". It does not follow that we have a topic the Devastating First World War. This is irresponsible semi-literate enthusiasm. Deleted. -- Wetman 03:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be rather deeply offended by this. Please tone down the insults and keep the page polite. By the way, I can't help being a bit silly myself and point out that, as everyone knows, the First World War was itself called the Great War right up to World War II, so you might try for a different example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.185.115.52 ( talk) 13:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
The Spanish emerged as the victors. What about the Holy Roman Empire. Did they gain or lose in the war? Within a hundred years, the Holy Roman Empire would be virtually destroyed after the Peace of Westaphilia or however you spell it. Did this affect it in any way? Tourskin 02:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how specifying the HRE as a location versus "Germany" is the more helpful option here; the HRE at the time is not a monolithic or even clearly defined geographic entity, and includes both components that are already subsumed in the other listed locations (e.g. Milan, Tuscany) as well as components that had nothing to do with the wars (e.g. Bohemia). Kirill Lokshin 15:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we perhaps add a 'causus belli' to the chart? Most battles and war articles have them.-- Chopin-Ate-Liszt! 05:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Scotland and Saxony are listed as belligerents but no mention is made of their role - presumably a minor one? At what point were they involved, on which side, and engaged in which locations? 78.32.103.197 ( talk) 16:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
From the article:
Is this true? This was added way back in 2005 with Kirill Lokshin's original expansion of the article, but according to the article on War of the League of Cambrai#Holy League, this invasion occurred in 1512. The Kingdom of Navarre article backs that up, and lists that as the date when Ferdinand takes over most of Navarre. Was there some new provocation in 1519? Or are one of these article's dates wrong? (I ask because I recently spun out the Spanish conquest of Iberian Navarre article from Kingdom of Navarre, and if anything happened in 1519, it should probably be put in there. But I can't find anything on that, only the French invasion in 1521.)
Also, I think "fief" might be a bit strong. Navarre was a client state of France, I'd say - completely dependent on France for its survival, but nominally independent. At least that's my understanding? (Again, could be wrong here.) SnowFire ( talk) 07:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
"were a series of conflicts from 1494 to 1559 that involved, at gaygaygay== Prelude ==" Please revert the obvious vandalism by 124.181.19.97 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.89.209.115 ( talk) 11:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
I've suppressed a very badly POV-tainted sentence about Ludovico Sforza's "betrayal" and a factual inaccuracy.
Lodovico Sforza was the Duke of Milan. He called the French into Italy, supporting the King of France's dynastic aims on the Kingdom of Naples. The French army soon proved to be no match for the weak Italian regional states, none of which could field a fifth of its numbers; French artillery also was technologically superior, inasmuch as the French guns could destroy the hitherto impregnable Italian fortifications. Ludovico Sforza realized he had invited a fox into a chicken coop. So he adhered to the Holy League, signing the relevant Treaty on 31st March. The battle of Fornovo took place in early July. So much for the sentence I deleted, which alleged that Lodovico Sforza "betrayed" the French while the battle of Fornovo was being fought.
I've also edited out the idea that Fornovo was a French victory. Ending out master of the battlefield, in those years, meant to be the victor. You don't flee from the battlefield without your carriages and provisions if you win a battle. The "Pyrrhic victory" was in fact just that, but it was the Italians who got... Pyrrhicized. The Italians' casualties were ten times greater than the French army's, as a consequence of outdated fighting techniques. And the history of the expedition showed that the regional states of Italy could not possibly defeat a large army from a major European power. The realization that such was the situation paved the way for the numerous invasions of Italy in the following centuries. Pan Brerus ( talk) 18:26, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, Kansas Bear, but one source WAS provided: Luigi Barzini Jr., The Italians, already quoted (an international success). As to Ludovico Sforza, it is enough to read the Wikipedia articles about the Holy League to realize he couldn't possibly have "betrayed" Charles VIII "during the battle of Fornovo", since he had signed into the anti-French alliance more than 3 months before said battle. "Betray" is a word that is heavily POV-tainted and should not be used while speaking of states (as opposed to individuals), whose changing interests dictate alliances and enmities and the switches thereof. I've reverted your changes and explicitly quoted Barzini's book as the source. Pan Brerus ( talk) 09:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Once again, the source is Barzini's book, already mentioned. Does one have to cite the same book for each added sentence? That would be nonsense.
As to academic research, this is what the Guidelines say: "Reliable non-academic sources may also be used in articles about scholarly issues, particularly material from high-quality mainstream publications."
Luigi Barzini, Jr. is indeed such a source, and you really should have taken the pain to check it up. Having been an academic historian myself for a few years, I resent your continuing innuendos about my personal opinions: I form my personal opinions on historical matters by reading authoritative sources. In this case, Barzini Jr -- a journalist, not unlike Karl Marx, Ernest Hemingway and André Malraux. The Wikipedia Italian article about the Battle of Fornovo covers the topic in some detail: if you understand Italian, you might look it up ( https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battaglia_di_Fornovo). BTW I'm not a contributor to that article; I've checked with the internal search engine in case I contributed and then forgot about it.
You might also see the Spanish Wiki article, at https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalla_de_Fornovo. The French version stops just short of admitting the French defeat, by writing "L'armée vénitienne ne parvient pas à arrêter la retraite française vers Asti". The French historians' version of the battle is especially biased, and even the Wikipedia article does not source any single sentence it includes. The Polish Wiki article indicates "taktyczne zwycięstwo francuskie; strategiczne zwycięstwo włoskie", that is, a tactical French victory and a strategic Italian victory - while the Italian article speaks about a strategic French victory and a tactical Italian one, which seems to be closer to the truth. The article in Russian agrees with the Polish, indicating a Тактическая победа Франции - Стратегическая победа итальянцев; the one in Turkish speaks of a Fransız stratejik zaferi - Venedik taktik zaferi, ie it sides with the Italian article. The reasons for that double outcome I have tried to explain in my unexplicitly-Barzini-sourced paragraph. The Dutch article says "Het gevolg van de slag was dat de Fransen tijdelijk uit Italië verdreven werden." -- Translation: "The consequence of the battle was that the French were temporarily expulsed from Italy", which would be a peculiar consequence indeed of a victory.
The German Wikipedia also states ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italienische_Kriege): Karl wollte sich nicht in Neapel abschneiden lassen und zog mit seinem Heer in die Lombardei, wo es am 6. Juli 1495 etwa 30 km südöstlich von Parma zur Schlacht bei Fornovo kam. Seine Verluste waren so schwer, dass er die Beute seines Italienzuges zurückließ und nach Frankreich zurückkehrte. Durch die hohe Schuldenlast war ihm eine Weiterführung des Krieges nicht möglich, er starb 27-jährig am 7. April 1498 an einem Unfall auf Schloss Amboise.
The bold part says: "His losses were so heavy that he left behind the booty of his Italian campaign and went back to France". A bizarre victory. The sentence, however, was unsourced.
The Spanish article quotes a Website ( http://web.archive.org/web/20110730071410/http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/fornovo.htm) where one can read an account of the battle by a Venitian official; the final paragraph is:
"60. Meanwhile the Frenchman (ie the King of France) called his leaders into conference and said, "Behold, nobles, after great slaughter and much bloodshed in this very cruel battle we have at length left the enemy behind us, yet we have been very unfortunate, for we have lost most of our baggage. Yet it was sufficient to have escaped so great peril with a small band. It would indeed have been the height of felicity if all had turned out well, but we must endure it if fortune has heaped on this one day all the evils of a whole year, a fortune which had been predicted to us as black, so that now, driven by hunger amid great danger, with glory and a kingdom and a triumph lost, with soldiers left behind in Puglia and Calabria, I must return home with a few forces. But in this one fact I rejoice, that our men fought with the utmost courage and true military discipline, and only a few of our nobles, and of the other soldiers not many, are missing, and even fewer are wounded. There is indeed nothing lasting under the heavens, and we must yield sometimes to fortune. The war with King Alfonso and his son we fought without bloodshed. But the Venetians have changed everything for us. This kingdom was not acquired for me, but for all of you; I enjoy a very extensive kingdom in a long succession. It remains to establish the whole army in safety with the greatest possible speed. But you, Trivulzio, proclaimed that the commander of the camp was a young man, or a boy, without military training. An evil boy he seemed to me on that day, but if the fight had taken place in the open he would have been far worse."
Not exactly the words of a victor.
To sum it up: the sentences you criticized were not unsourced; and even if I did not deem it expedient to add other references in the article, I have mined out quite a few, as you can read in this post of mine. Will that be enough for you? I do hope so. Pan Brerus ( talk) 11:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Let us keep to the essentials. There is no law of physics saying journalists cannot be objective, and the Guidelines explicitly endorse the use of non-academic sources. I emphasize it: the Guidelines do not forbid it. If it is not forbidden, it is permitted, and you have no ground for criticizing my doing just that. Barzini Jr sold millions of copies worldwide of his insightful book, and the battle of Fornovo is very important within it. I did not use Wikipedia as a reference, but I showed YOU (not the general reader) that the interpretation of the battle of Fornovo as an unmitigated French victory was not present in any other Wikipedia - and also that many articles were poorly sourced but were not defied under that respect. Francesco Guicciardini describes the battle of Fornovo. Guicciardini is a historian and political thinker whose reputation is not second to Machiavelli's. Unfortunately for me, he is not entirely on my side, since he testifies about both parties trying to adjudicate themselves the victory at Fornovo all right, but he also writes "E nondimeno, il consentimento universale aggiudicò la palma a' franzesi: per il numero de' morti tanto differente, e perché scacciorono gl'inimici di là dal fiume, e perché restò loro libero il passare innanzi, che era la contenzione per la quale proceduto si era al combattere." Meaning the eventual consensus was for a French victory, because the French repelled their enemies across the river, and succeeded in moving forward, which was their reason for fighting. Guicciardini, however, does not speak of an unconditional French victory, and he cites the same reasons as I did - their losing their carriages and even part of the King's arms, and their fleeing the battlefield. I think you and I might settle for the same formula as so many international Wiki articles (Italian tactical victory, French strategic victory), and a reference to Guicciardini. Pan Brerus ( talk) 21:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I see that this page feature a map way too imprecise, many little italian states are missing, like the Principality of Piombino, the county of Gorizia or the County of Guastalla and the duchy of Mirandola, whereas File:Italia._Cambiamenti_territoriali_(1495-1535).png features them, albeit opening the eyes wide. Nevertheless, the current map is way more readable. What should be done to address such issue in your opinion?-- Nickanc ( talk) 22:06, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
The article French invasions of Italy (Renaissance Wars) seems to be a content fork of this article? -- Xaiver0510 ( talk) 05:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
French invasions of Italy (Renaissance Wars) is simply a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. Doug Weller talk 11:52, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
The introductions says "Following his liberation, Francis I initiated a new war in Italy during which mutinous Germanic troops of Lutheran faith sacked Rome (1527) and expelled the Medici from Florence". Something does not make sense and the sequence is not right. The Medici were expelled from Florence between 1494 and 1512. Francis I was captured at the Battle of Pavia in 1525 and the sack of Rome occurred in 1527. A revision/correction is definitely necessary.
ICE77 ( talk) 02:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I would love to know what weapons they used 69.40.55.114 ( talk) 23:55, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Someone with a good grasp of these events might expand this article, with a generous supply of Main article:... headings to blocks of text, and tie together many small articles on episodes (at "What links here" etc) within the general framework. The result? a great help to the Wikipedia reader. -- Wetman 07:37, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
By 1503, Louis, having been defeated at the Battle of Cerignola and Battle of Garigliano, was forced to withdraw from Naples, which was left under the control of the Spanish viceroy, Ramon de Cardona.
Was this particular viceroy not Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba? qp10qp 23:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
If no one minds, I'd like to increase the "Italy 1494" map size here to at 250px from the recently down-sized 200px. I try to design maps and their text at a sufficient size to be read directly within the article. As I mention on my User Page, I believe that the maps should be tailored to the article so that, for example, the reader easily find specific locations (e.g. Naples) without having to click 2 or 3 times to get a map close-up.
Which is a long-winded way to saying that the map does best at 250px (or higher), so I'd like to move it up a bit in size in no one minds. MapMaster 03:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn´t the map that is used in the german WIKI be better and more accurate than the one used here in the article about the Italian Wars and the 1494 Italian War? article http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Italy_1494_shepherd.jpg ConjurerDragon ( talk) 09:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The "Italy 1494" could use some improvements in the color palette. The Duchy of Milan looks like a big lake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.39.118.210 ( talk) 06:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure the Spaniards weren't using Tercio tactics in the Italian wars - they were certainly putting the Arquebusiers to good effect, but Michael Howard puts the date of the reorganisation into 3000 men tercios at 1534, and Jose Gonzalez de Leon at 1536. Either way, I think the Tercios came a little later. Do you want me to perhaps do a little rewrite to accomodate this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.233.135 ( talk • contribs)
Oh please. Wargaming babble, as googling for the phrase in quotes immediately reveals. Enthusiast sites like http://www.balagan.org.uk/ to the contrary, when Sir Charles Oman uses the phrase in History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century it is as "the great Italian Wars", as one might say "the devastating First World War". It does not follow that we have a topic the Devastating First World War. This is irresponsible semi-literate enthusiasm. Deleted. -- Wetman 03:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be rather deeply offended by this. Please tone down the insults and keep the page polite. By the way, I can't help being a bit silly myself and point out that, as everyone knows, the First World War was itself called the Great War right up to World War II, so you might try for a different example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.185.115.52 ( talk) 13:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
The Spanish emerged as the victors. What about the Holy Roman Empire. Did they gain or lose in the war? Within a hundred years, the Holy Roman Empire would be virtually destroyed after the Peace of Westaphilia or however you spell it. Did this affect it in any way? Tourskin 02:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how specifying the HRE as a location versus "Germany" is the more helpful option here; the HRE at the time is not a monolithic or even clearly defined geographic entity, and includes both components that are already subsumed in the other listed locations (e.g. Milan, Tuscany) as well as components that had nothing to do with the wars (e.g. Bohemia). Kirill Lokshin 15:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we perhaps add a 'causus belli' to the chart? Most battles and war articles have them.-- Chopin-Ate-Liszt! 05:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Scotland and Saxony are listed as belligerents but no mention is made of their role - presumably a minor one? At what point were they involved, on which side, and engaged in which locations? 78.32.103.197 ( talk) 16:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
From the article:
Is this true? This was added way back in 2005 with Kirill Lokshin's original expansion of the article, but according to the article on War of the League of Cambrai#Holy League, this invasion occurred in 1512. The Kingdom of Navarre article backs that up, and lists that as the date when Ferdinand takes over most of Navarre. Was there some new provocation in 1519? Or are one of these article's dates wrong? (I ask because I recently spun out the Spanish conquest of Iberian Navarre article from Kingdom of Navarre, and if anything happened in 1519, it should probably be put in there. But I can't find anything on that, only the French invasion in 1521.)
Also, I think "fief" might be a bit strong. Navarre was a client state of France, I'd say - completely dependent on France for its survival, but nominally independent. At least that's my understanding? (Again, could be wrong here.) SnowFire ( talk) 07:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
"were a series of conflicts from 1494 to 1559 that involved, at gaygaygay== Prelude ==" Please revert the obvious vandalism by 124.181.19.97 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.89.209.115 ( talk) 11:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
I've suppressed a very badly POV-tainted sentence about Ludovico Sforza's "betrayal" and a factual inaccuracy.
Lodovico Sforza was the Duke of Milan. He called the French into Italy, supporting the King of France's dynastic aims on the Kingdom of Naples. The French army soon proved to be no match for the weak Italian regional states, none of which could field a fifth of its numbers; French artillery also was technologically superior, inasmuch as the French guns could destroy the hitherto impregnable Italian fortifications. Ludovico Sforza realized he had invited a fox into a chicken coop. So he adhered to the Holy League, signing the relevant Treaty on 31st March. The battle of Fornovo took place in early July. So much for the sentence I deleted, which alleged that Lodovico Sforza "betrayed" the French while the battle of Fornovo was being fought.
I've also edited out the idea that Fornovo was a French victory. Ending out master of the battlefield, in those years, meant to be the victor. You don't flee from the battlefield without your carriages and provisions if you win a battle. The "Pyrrhic victory" was in fact just that, but it was the Italians who got... Pyrrhicized. The Italians' casualties were ten times greater than the French army's, as a consequence of outdated fighting techniques. And the history of the expedition showed that the regional states of Italy could not possibly defeat a large army from a major European power. The realization that such was the situation paved the way for the numerous invasions of Italy in the following centuries. Pan Brerus ( talk) 18:26, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, Kansas Bear, but one source WAS provided: Luigi Barzini Jr., The Italians, already quoted (an international success). As to Ludovico Sforza, it is enough to read the Wikipedia articles about the Holy League to realize he couldn't possibly have "betrayed" Charles VIII "during the battle of Fornovo", since he had signed into the anti-French alliance more than 3 months before said battle. "Betray" is a word that is heavily POV-tainted and should not be used while speaking of states (as opposed to individuals), whose changing interests dictate alliances and enmities and the switches thereof. I've reverted your changes and explicitly quoted Barzini's book as the source. Pan Brerus ( talk) 09:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Once again, the source is Barzini's book, already mentioned. Does one have to cite the same book for each added sentence? That would be nonsense.
As to academic research, this is what the Guidelines say: "Reliable non-academic sources may also be used in articles about scholarly issues, particularly material from high-quality mainstream publications."
Luigi Barzini, Jr. is indeed such a source, and you really should have taken the pain to check it up. Having been an academic historian myself for a few years, I resent your continuing innuendos about my personal opinions: I form my personal opinions on historical matters by reading authoritative sources. In this case, Barzini Jr -- a journalist, not unlike Karl Marx, Ernest Hemingway and André Malraux. The Wikipedia Italian article about the Battle of Fornovo covers the topic in some detail: if you understand Italian, you might look it up ( https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battaglia_di_Fornovo). BTW I'm not a contributor to that article; I've checked with the internal search engine in case I contributed and then forgot about it.
You might also see the Spanish Wiki article, at https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalla_de_Fornovo. The French version stops just short of admitting the French defeat, by writing "L'armée vénitienne ne parvient pas à arrêter la retraite française vers Asti". The French historians' version of the battle is especially biased, and even the Wikipedia article does not source any single sentence it includes. The Polish Wiki article indicates "taktyczne zwycięstwo francuskie; strategiczne zwycięstwo włoskie", that is, a tactical French victory and a strategic Italian victory - while the Italian article speaks about a strategic French victory and a tactical Italian one, which seems to be closer to the truth. The article in Russian agrees with the Polish, indicating a Тактическая победа Франции - Стратегическая победа итальянцев; the one in Turkish speaks of a Fransız stratejik zaferi - Venedik taktik zaferi, ie it sides with the Italian article. The reasons for that double outcome I have tried to explain in my unexplicitly-Barzini-sourced paragraph. The Dutch article says "Het gevolg van de slag was dat de Fransen tijdelijk uit Italië verdreven werden." -- Translation: "The consequence of the battle was that the French were temporarily expulsed from Italy", which would be a peculiar consequence indeed of a victory.
The German Wikipedia also states ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italienische_Kriege): Karl wollte sich nicht in Neapel abschneiden lassen und zog mit seinem Heer in die Lombardei, wo es am 6. Juli 1495 etwa 30 km südöstlich von Parma zur Schlacht bei Fornovo kam. Seine Verluste waren so schwer, dass er die Beute seines Italienzuges zurückließ und nach Frankreich zurückkehrte. Durch die hohe Schuldenlast war ihm eine Weiterführung des Krieges nicht möglich, er starb 27-jährig am 7. April 1498 an einem Unfall auf Schloss Amboise.
The bold part says: "His losses were so heavy that he left behind the booty of his Italian campaign and went back to France". A bizarre victory. The sentence, however, was unsourced.
The Spanish article quotes a Website ( http://web.archive.org/web/20110730071410/http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/fornovo.htm) where one can read an account of the battle by a Venitian official; the final paragraph is:
"60. Meanwhile the Frenchman (ie the King of France) called his leaders into conference and said, "Behold, nobles, after great slaughter and much bloodshed in this very cruel battle we have at length left the enemy behind us, yet we have been very unfortunate, for we have lost most of our baggage. Yet it was sufficient to have escaped so great peril with a small band. It would indeed have been the height of felicity if all had turned out well, but we must endure it if fortune has heaped on this one day all the evils of a whole year, a fortune which had been predicted to us as black, so that now, driven by hunger amid great danger, with glory and a kingdom and a triumph lost, with soldiers left behind in Puglia and Calabria, I must return home with a few forces. But in this one fact I rejoice, that our men fought with the utmost courage and true military discipline, and only a few of our nobles, and of the other soldiers not many, are missing, and even fewer are wounded. There is indeed nothing lasting under the heavens, and we must yield sometimes to fortune. The war with King Alfonso and his son we fought without bloodshed. But the Venetians have changed everything for us. This kingdom was not acquired for me, but for all of you; I enjoy a very extensive kingdom in a long succession. It remains to establish the whole army in safety with the greatest possible speed. But you, Trivulzio, proclaimed that the commander of the camp was a young man, or a boy, without military training. An evil boy he seemed to me on that day, but if the fight had taken place in the open he would have been far worse."
Not exactly the words of a victor.
To sum it up: the sentences you criticized were not unsourced; and even if I did not deem it expedient to add other references in the article, I have mined out quite a few, as you can read in this post of mine. Will that be enough for you? I do hope so. Pan Brerus ( talk) 11:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Let us keep to the essentials. There is no law of physics saying journalists cannot be objective, and the Guidelines explicitly endorse the use of non-academic sources. I emphasize it: the Guidelines do not forbid it. If it is not forbidden, it is permitted, and you have no ground for criticizing my doing just that. Barzini Jr sold millions of copies worldwide of his insightful book, and the battle of Fornovo is very important within it. I did not use Wikipedia as a reference, but I showed YOU (not the general reader) that the interpretation of the battle of Fornovo as an unmitigated French victory was not present in any other Wikipedia - and also that many articles were poorly sourced but were not defied under that respect. Francesco Guicciardini describes the battle of Fornovo. Guicciardini is a historian and political thinker whose reputation is not second to Machiavelli's. Unfortunately for me, he is not entirely on my side, since he testifies about both parties trying to adjudicate themselves the victory at Fornovo all right, but he also writes "E nondimeno, il consentimento universale aggiudicò la palma a' franzesi: per il numero de' morti tanto differente, e perché scacciorono gl'inimici di là dal fiume, e perché restò loro libero il passare innanzi, che era la contenzione per la quale proceduto si era al combattere." Meaning the eventual consensus was for a French victory, because the French repelled their enemies across the river, and succeeded in moving forward, which was their reason for fighting. Guicciardini, however, does not speak of an unconditional French victory, and he cites the same reasons as I did - their losing their carriages and even part of the King's arms, and their fleeing the battlefield. I think you and I might settle for the same formula as so many international Wiki articles (Italian tactical victory, French strategic victory), and a reference to Guicciardini. Pan Brerus ( talk) 21:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I see that this page feature a map way too imprecise, many little italian states are missing, like the Principality of Piombino, the county of Gorizia or the County of Guastalla and the duchy of Mirandola, whereas File:Italia._Cambiamenti_territoriali_(1495-1535).png features them, albeit opening the eyes wide. Nevertheless, the current map is way more readable. What should be done to address such issue in your opinion?-- Nickanc ( talk) 22:06, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
The article French invasions of Italy (Renaissance Wars) seems to be a content fork of this article? -- Xaiver0510 ( talk) 05:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
French invasions of Italy (Renaissance Wars) is simply a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. Doug Weller talk 11:52, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
The introductions says "Following his liberation, Francis I initiated a new war in Italy during which mutinous Germanic troops of Lutheran faith sacked Rome (1527) and expelled the Medici from Florence". Something does not make sense and the sequence is not right. The Medici were expelled from Florence between 1494 and 1512. Francis I was captured at the Battle of Pavia in 1525 and the sack of Rome occurred in 1527. A revision/correction is definitely necessary.
ICE77 ( talk) 02:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I would love to know what weapons they used 69.40.55.114 ( talk) 23:55, 20 May 2023 (UTC)