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There are several related disputes that have raged on the pages Talk:Occupation of the Palestinian territories, Talk:Zionism and Talk:Occupied territories. The issue that should be resolved first, in my opinion, because it is completely blocking progress, is whether this article should be merged into Occupation of the Palestinian territories or vice versa. No one has expressed support for keeping both articles. Once we have one article, we will have a single place to address the related issues, particulary what is the proper usage of the terms "occupied territory" and "disputed territory" within Wikipedia articles.
So far, Jayjg, Viriditas, Humus sapiens, and SlimVirgin seem to feel strongly that Occupied Territories (Israeli) should be merged into Occupation of the Palestinian territories. Me, Marsden and (I think) Grace Note believe that Occupation of the Palestinian territories should be merged into Occupied Territories (Israeli). The reasons I believe this is the way the merger should be done are:
I suggest we defer discussion on other issues, particularly what the title of the surviving article should be, until the merger issue is resolved. Once we have one article, we can then discuss how that article should be titled. Also, while the merger discussion is going on I urge that there be no unilateral actions, like major rewrites, blanking, or renaming of either of the articles in question. I hope we can resolve the matter among ourselves, but I am prepared to take this through the Wikipedia mediation process if necessary.
Brian Tvedt 02:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Whatever the article is called, the official positions of both Israel and the PNA concerning the controversy over how the territories are referenced needs to be accurately presented. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 06:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, your edits seem a clear violation of Wikipedia guidelines. You should not be making edits to this page solely for the purpose of retaliation against another user for changes that user made on a different page, whether that user violated an "agreement" or not. I have provided specifc reasons why the more specific article should be merged into this one. You have not provided any reason for doing it the other way. In fact it doesn't make sense, since you say you want an article on the more general topic. Brian Tvedt 02:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Although there was consesus to merge the articles, the title change was done without discussion. I agreed to it, but Marsden did not, and he certainly has the right to speak for himself on the point. He should not have reverted the text of the article just because he disagreed with the title, though.
That being said, Marsden is a relatively new user. You, on the other hand, are a sysop and a member of the arbitration committee, and therefore your misbehavior is of far more serious concern.
I have to say, if you were in favor of the merger, your repeated blanking of the agreed on target page was not very helpful. Brian Tvedt 11:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
This is a true merge, integrating the text of the other article into this one, not a simple blanking and redirect. There are still rough spots and I may not have removed all duplication.
There seems to be consensus on the direction of the merge, as nobody raised any specific objection to merging in the direction I proposed and argued for. Also, we all apparently agree that the scope of the article should be territories captured by Israel in the 1967 war.
As to the title, I favor Territories under Israeli control which seems neutral, and doesn't suffer from the objections of "occupied territory" or "disputed territory". Brian Tvedt 02:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
This is totally unacceptable. The entire world, bar a very small majority, calls these the "occupied territories". Naming this article according to the minority view would be similar to having an article called the supposed deity named God or the false theory of evolution. Grace Note 03:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Why "occupied territories" should be used in Wikipedia is because: United Nations uses it, Amnesty International uses it, U.S. Department of State uses it, the CIA uses it, the Human Rights Watch uses it, Reuters uses it, and so forth. -- saxet 02:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I concur - they are called the Occupied Territories. The current title is a ridiculous euphemism. john k 04:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I've started a copy edit but now can't insert it because Marsden keeps reverting, so I'm pasting it in here until he stops. It's absurd that you're now holding up improving the article, Marsden, and keep reverting to a version with poor writing for the sake of making whatever your point is (I've lost track of whether you even have one). I'm pasting here what I'd done before his latest revert. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
If only the article were about Israeli bitching about the rest of the world calling the territories it is occupying "the occupied territories" and not the occupied territories themselves, this would all be tremendous! Why not go and write a POV article about how we're all wrong to call the territories "occupied" and leave this one for the facts about the occupation? Grace Note 07:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Do Israeli supporters say that this situation is consistent with democracy? If so, okay, but if no source is made handy, it should probably be rephrased. El_C 12:52, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
In line with the elimination of any reference to "occupation" in the title, I'm going to change all direct uses of the term "Israel" to "the Zionist Entity," or some variation of that. As most of you probably know, many countries do not recognize the State of Israel, and many people throughout the Muslim world do not acknowledge its existence, so it would be POV to use that term: "Israel" is pro-Israeli POV; "Zionist Entity" is NPOV; and things like "den of vipers" or "blight upon the earth" are Palestinian/Arab POV.
While some of you may think that this is outrageous, it really isn't, or at least it is less outrageous than the fait accompli of eliminating direct references to "Israeli occupation" because that term is POV. It is official Wikipedia policy that cultural bias is NPOV, and worldwide, there is much more dispute as to whether the State of Israel is legitimate than there is as to whether Israel occupies the Occupied Territories.
Obviously, I'm going to have an awful lot of editting to do all throughout Wikipedia in order to eliminate the POV term "Israel," so I'll welcome help from wherever I can get it. I'll allow a day or so for people to comment. Marsden 13:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Marsden, I have to interject here - we argued vehemently once before, and reached accomodation that allowed us to work together on a contentious article; I thought your ideas were valuable, and the improved opening paragraphs of the Zionism article reflected that. When the Occupied Territories fight started on that page, I tried several times to develop compromises, but have since dropped out of that debate because I didn't want to get involved in an edit storm that would drive me crazy, and because it seemed like the chance of achieving reasoned discussion and consensus between the two sides was unlikely. So, with this as context, I have to tell you that I find your proposal quite troubling, in that it is definitively a WP:POINT issue that goes far beyond your ongoing arguments over the issue of the occupied territories or whatever you are fighting over. If I understand you, you are threatening to remove the word Israel from the articles on Jewish history or Berihah or the Irgun or any one of the thousands of other pages not related to your dispute because you are having a fight on this page? I know you are frustrated, and that you are trying to make a point with this, but trying to make a point by attacking other articles is exactly the kind of destructive behavior that threatens the integrity of Wikipedia as a whole and draws in editors like myself who would otherwise have at least listened to a more reasonable debate on the topic. You are not going to convince anyone with this approach, and attempts to point out contradictions in people's positions through over-the-top proposals is not an effective argumentation technique, it undermines any points you might have, and makes it seem like you are not acting in good faith. Please reconsider your approach. -- Goodoldpolonius2 15:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll just reiterate WP:POINT. Not that it isn't absurd that the term Occupied Territories has been banned. john k 04:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Brian, in the terminology section, these positions are not stated as fact, but as argument. In attributing that argument to the settlers and their supporters, you're qualifying it. The section already says that these are arguments used by Israel's supporters. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Marsden, did you do a cut and paste move of this talk page? That's a big no no. john k 13:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Cut and paste moves destroy the history. They are always to be avoided. john k 14:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Marsden keeps inserting this paragraph into the article:
A central strategic concern of Israel in the West Bank is maintaining control of the Mountain Aquifer, which supplies over a third of Israel's fresh water resources. Israel has strictly limited Palestinian well-digging in the West Bank, resulting in water access for Palestinians there that is near the limits necessary to sustain human life, as reported by the United Nations. These limits help to preserve the Aquifer for Israeli use.
Can someone explain what this original research strategic analysis is doing in the middle of a discussion of the political history of the territories? Did the Sinai Peninsula section discuss the "strategic concern of Israel" regarding Oil supplies, for example (the Sinai Peninsula had Israel's only working oil wells, as far as I know)? And why the focus on water, and not, say, on military issues (e.g. strategic depth)? The entire rest of the article discusses the political and legal history of the territories in question, why is this out-of-place argument being inserted? Is this article to be a reprise of the Arab-Israeli conflict article, or West Bank article? Jayjg (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
There are two issues here. The first is the narrow focus on water resources as being the key issue, which is a highly POV approach. There are many issues in the conflict. For some the issue is purely religious; this is land that they believe God promised them. For others the issue is about Jewish ownership of the land, and Zionist ideals. For others the issues are all military (strategic depth). For others, the issues are mostly political (don't give up something for nothing). Your focus on one narrow view of what it is about (water) creates a distorted POV for this section. The second, larger issue is that this is not an article about what various people think are the "real" reasons why Israel insists on controlling the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but rather a simple description of the political history of the territories in question. Attempting to shift the focus of this article for just this small section is another way of POVing it. Jayjg (talk) 16:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I was planning on inserting something about the Sinai oil fields, but haven't got around to it. Of course the water issue is relevant. Brian Tvedt 11:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
It probably would be appropriate -- in order to prevent POV forks, as you like to say when it suits you, Jay -- to have sections about both the practical significances of the territories and about the conditions there. This isn't a matter of just red states versus blue states, after all -- there are real consequences both ways in the situation. Marsden 13:31, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we try to separate the article Title dispute from the article contents wars? The article was originally called "Occupation of the Palestinian territories". Marsden created a different version of the article called "Occupied Territories (Israeli)". Brian merged the two and called the result "Territories under Israeli control". Can we have some discussion here about what the ultimate title of this article should be? The opening paragraph can certainly be changed to reflect whatever that title is or becomes. Jayjg (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Occupied Territories, with "Territories" capitalized, seems good enough to me - are there any other places which are referred to as just the "Occupied Territories"? And I agree with Saxet's reasons why the term is NPOV. john k 14:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, if we must have a disambiguator, I'd prefer Occupied Territories (Israel) to Occupied Territories (Israeli). Israeli Occupied Territories would also be acceptable. john k 15:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin and Jayjg/John McW seem to be back to their pattern of just perpetually extending arguments, so that they can claim that the discussion isn't finished if anyone changes the article from their prefered version. It looks, however, like the censorship of "Israeli Occupied" doesn't have very broad support. Marsden 17:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The Hamas analogy is absurd - to begin with, there is no need to disambiguate the terrorist group Hamas from other groups called Hamas. As to the Occupied Territories, on what basis is it POV to say they are occupied? They have not been annexed to Israel, and they are under a military occupation. Does the Israeli government even explicitly deny that they are occupied territories (lower case)? john k 17:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The Jordanians annexed the West Bank. Although this was not recognized by anyone else, it does mean that the area was administered as part of Jordan, which is most certainly not true of the West Bank's treatment by Israel at present. The Jordanians also offered Jordanian citizenship to the Palestinians living in its territory. That being said, you are right about Gaza. But it is a minor point. The world isn't fair. Even if Gaza's status under Egypt and under Israel were the same (I'm not convinced of this), the basic fact is that, as you point out, Gaza and the West Bank were not called "occupied territories" when they were under Egyptian and Jordanian control, and they have been called it since 1967. We can't call Gaza and the West Bank "occupied territories" when they were under Egyptian and Jordanian control, because nobody used the term. People have used the term since 1967 (including, once again, major Israeli publications, specifically including the Jerusalem Post, which is no friend of the Palestinians). The question is not "is it fair that the term was not used when Arabs were in charge of the area, but are used now that the Israelis are"? The questions to ask are 1) "Is it common usage to call them the occupied territories?" The answer is obviously yes. This is how they are most commonly referred everywhere in the world outside Israel. 2) "Is it especially misleading to call them the occupied territories?" I think the answer to this is not really - their administration is certainly describable as one of occupation. Obviously, definitions of occupation can vary, but I think that one can say that the term fits. 3) "Is it betraying an anti-Israel POV to refer to them as the occupied territories?" I think the answer to this is also not really. The US government and the Jerusalem Post both use the term (at least occasionally in the latter case). I'm going to continue with "a phrase cannot be anti-Israel POV if it is used as a straightforward term in the Jerusalem Post. (For more examples another op-ed piece in the Jerusalem Post from someone whose viewpoint appears to be best described as Sharonite - supports the Gaza pull out, but because of relatively hardline views. Here's another usage, from 1991, in what seems to be a timeline article. This article also uses the term. I have yet to see any evidence that "occupied territories" is not only the most commonly used term worldwide, but is also a commonly used term in Israel itself, and not only by the left. Again, the official bargaining position of the Israeli government and the rantings of a few extremist settlers do not trump the common usage of the entire world, and the fact that said usage is not "fair" because people didn't use it about the Egyptians or the Jordanians is completely irrelevant. john k 15:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems that Jayjg, SlimVirgin, and Andjam are the only ones directly insisting against a title using some combination of "Israel," "Occupied," and "Territory." Brian Tvedt, based on his actions, might choose to join them. I, saxet, John K, Grace Note, and El C, among the people commenting here on the matter, are in favor of it. Five to (at best) four, although perhaps making the motion I'm about to make will get more people out of the woodwork.
I suggest that we decide on a name for the article that incorporates the above term, and make the name change.
At one time, I had made an "Occupied territories" disambiguation page between "Occupied Territories (Israeli)" and "Occupied territories (general meaning)," and we might do something like that again. Marsden 19:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Aye?
Nay?
It's too early for voting, which is a bad idea in any event. Rather then closing down discussion after, oh, about 4 hours and 5 participants, why don't we wait for a full discussion of the topic, with many others having a chance to weigh in. Jayjg (talk) 19:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC) (Vote "Nay," then, Jay.)
Marsden, are you still threatening to delete the word "Israel" from every article if you lose the vote? I am confused as to the nature of the debate here. -- Goodoldpolonius2 22:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
With Jay and Slim, any assumption I had of good faith was beaten out of me long ago. Sorry, but that's the way it is. They are just nasty, and not only with me -- I am appalled at some of the veiled threats they have made against users who are making their very first contributions here; they must scare away dozens of potential contributers whose only mistake is thinking that their input might be welcome. When it comes to their pet topics, they are bullies, pure and simple. Marsden 00:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Abstain
In the Terminology section, I think that the case for or common usage of the term "Occupied Territories" should be listed first since it is the most commonly used phrase. It seems strange to read objections to the term before it's been introduced. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 20:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Just to see how Wikipedia has dealt with other "contentious" terminology, I just looked up Armenian Genocide, which some of you may know the Turkish government denies ever happened and pressures other governments around the world to refrain ever from referring to it. The title of the article is plainly, "Armenian Genocide," though it has a POV flag and the opening paragraph includes the sentence,
(On the talk page is a quote allegedly from the Turkish embassy website that uses the term, "the Armenian experience," which I believe was also the name of a band that played at the Monterrey Pop Festival in 1968, although I may be mistaken about that.) The next paragraph begins,
I'd call that a very weak sentence, actually: it would be more accurate, I think, to write that only a few scholars, most of them from Turkey, dispute that the events constitute a genocide, but the Turkish government has managed to persuade many other governments and the UN not to make reference to it. The reality of the situation is that the term "genocide" was coined specifically to refer to the "Armenian experience;" it's something like the Xerox corporation protesting not against people referring to photocopying with other machines as "xeroxing," but against people referring to photocopying with Xerox machines as "xeroxing."
Anyway, MPerel made a suggestion about having a "neutral" title, with links to it from the various "non-neutral" names, and even SlimVirgin was agreeable to that, which is great progress, really: previously, she and Jayjg had been attempting to obliterate any links that suggested Israeli occupation. Had this suggestion been made long ago, I probably would have gone along with it. But at this point I think it would just end up being a resting position, where most people would think the matter had been settled and would stop paying attention to it. Then after a while Slim and Jay and a couple others would get their daggers out again, and fully restore their POV censorship. So now I think it's more important to keep the light of day on this censorship effort.
So, I think that if Turkey can have the label "genocide" stuck onto something it is responsible for but denies, and something that it has largely managed to avoid UN and other governmental reference to, then Israel should have little complaint about having the comparatively minor label of "occupation" stuck onto its situation, which is probably even more agreed upon than the Armenian Genocide.
Marsden 14:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Another form of comparison shopping: A much more informative online article on the Occupied Territories than Wikipedia is likely to manage: Countrystudies:Israel:The Occupied Territories
It was previously argued that the article didn't make sense because the article definition would include pre-1967 Israel. Maybe the article could be renamed from "Territories under Israeli control" to "Territory under Israeli control" and include pre-1967 Israel. This'd make information more contiguous, rather than splitting between pre-1967 and post-1967 areas.
Splitting between pre-1967 and post-1967 implies that the pre-1967 borders aren't disputed. Most of the Palestinian militant groups don't see pre-1967 Israel as undisputed. Andjam 15:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact that there seems to be substantial support for turning an article about the territories that came under Israeli control after the 1967 war into a general article on - I'm not sure what - the fact that Arabs don't recognize Israel? - is most distressing. I thought I'd try to lay out a rationale for naming the article "Occupied territories (Israel)" or something along those lines.
Anyway, that's my basic feeling. A few final points, and then a proposal:
Finally, it doesn't look to me that this is going to be resolved by discussion. I think that Marsden's proposal of a vote was probably the right way to go. Obviously, we shouldn't just start a vote, as Marsden did. But perhaps we should try to come up with procedures for a vote that could resolve this issue. Anyone with me? john k 15:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Slim - I am not ignoring your criticism of the commun use argument, but I don't find the examples you use relevant. The woman example is particularly irrelevant, since it's based on the faulty idea that the fact that nearly every world government and the UN use the term "occupied territories" is somehow comparable to the fact that there's a lot of people who think women are inferior to men. These simply are not comparable. Furthermore, as I've noted before, naming policy is a different matter from general NPOV issues. We are discussing naming policy, and your woman example had nothing to do with naming policy, unless you are suggesting that "inferior creature" is a more commonly used name in English than "women." That's why it's a straw man. As to "there's no reason whatsoever for Wikipedia to go along with the use of terms, no matter how commonly they're used, if they're used inconsistently, and are disputed by one of the parties," I don't think that is a very accurate representation of wikipedia naming policy at present. Things being "used inconsistently," as I noted previously arguing against Jay, is not an argument at all - terms are always used inconsistently. That's the way of the world. Some European monarchs have their names usually anglicized, others do not. It is not wikipedia's job to impose a false uniformity. The second point is valid to an extent, but there are very frequently instances where there is simply no name which is not "disputed by one of the parties." This is, for instance, the case with American Civil War - southern partisans prefer to call it the War between the States, or occasionally the War of Northern Aggression or the War for Southern Independence. But we still use American Civil War, even though it might be considered vaguely POV, because it is by far the most common name, and there is no other title that would be more NPOV. This basic issue seems to be the case here. Here's what Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) has to say in the "don't overdo it" section: Also, some terms are in common usage but are commonly regarded as offensive to large groups of people (Eskimo and Mormon Church, for example). In those cases use widely known alternatives. So far so good. The extent to which "occupied territories" is "commonly regarded as offensive" to Israelis seems questionable to me, if the Jerusalem Post uses it, but let's even grant that it might be so considered. The problem is, there are no "widely known alternatives." The only moderately alternatives are the even more unacceptable Disputed Territories and Liberated Territories, which are much more clearly POV (do you think a Palestinian newspaper would use "disputed territories" in the way the JPost uses "occupied territories"?) It seems to me that, just as the common usage of American Civil War and lack of obvious alternatives necessitates leaving that article where it is, so the common usage of occupied territories and the lack of any natural alternatives means that this should be the title of that article. Feel free to take issue, but I'd be interested to see how you feel the American Civil War issue is different, and to see if you can provide any real examples of your understanding of naming policy in action. john k 16:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Weighing in briefly, I think John is correct regarding wikipedia naming conventions, but is being rude and overbearing. We choose from the most common terms first (things readers are likely to type in), and then out of those try to err on the side of NPOV. Creating neologisms is O.R., but "useless" is not a polite way to describe someone elses analogy. Sam Spade 18:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey Sam, glad to see you still think I'm rude and overbearing. Also glad to see you agree with me on the substance. But the way you criticize my behavior is totally unfair. It's just like the way Stalin would silence dissent in the Soviet Union. (This analogy, I'm sure you'll find, was extremely useful in stimulating discussion). john k 19:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
please, please, to ALL, can we put aside personal comments, and try to talk to each other respectfully instead? We'll make more progress that way. : ) -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 19:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for being snide. I was purposefully trying to come up with a deeply offensive, and nonsensical analogy to show that one might call an analogy "useless" without being rude. But it didn't help matters at all. john k 19:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
A thought that occured to me... There actually is a psycho-linguistic empirical method of quantifying the level of "loadedness" of a term, which we should perhaps consult and discuss. Let me see if I can find something on that. Also, we should discuss how Middle East scholars refer to our subject. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 21:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
"The fact that there seems to be substantial support for turning an article about the territories that came under Israeli control after the 1967 war into a general article on - I'm not sure what - the fact that Arabs don't recognize Israel? - is most distressing."
As well as those seeking the destruction of Israel, there are also those who argue the land gained by Israel during the 1947 war is negotiable. Were you deliberately trying to set up a False dilemma?
"If we want to create an article to highlight the fact that Palestinians and many Arab states do not recognize the state of Israel as legitimate, this is not that article. It already has a clear purpose, which would not be served by expanding it with this vague mandate."
I don't think it's helpful having them as separate articles.
"It is not, however, wikipedia's job to come up with NPOV alternative titles. In some instances, the common name rule trumps a very expansive reading of the NPOV policy. Thus, we have Louis XVII of France, who was never king of France, because no other title would be recognizable, even though using this title might imply a legitimist POV."
The name seems perfectly NPOV to me. The title does not say that he's king, and Roman numerals does not a king make: William Henry Gates III is not a king, despite rumours otherwise. The "of France" does not imply that he's king of France, any more than "of Arc" says that Joan is royalty.
"When a name is common enough, as "occupied territories" is, not using it, even if one is not using a propaganda name preferred by one party, can be inferred to be representing a POV."
Rejecting POV should not be seen as POV.
"Because if it does I'm out. I would also like to object to your usage of the term "Middle East" which is extremely POV, and inaccurate. Using the cardinal direction of east to describe the region is a colonial habit and pointless since if you are in China you could refer to the region as the Middle West."
Neither "middle" or "east" are legal terms or pejorative terms, whereas "occupied" is. Andjam 04:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I adore the idea that Israel just happened to "control" the territories. It's not quite descriptive but Orwell would have loved it, I think. "Hey, look, we've just acquired Samaria! Amazing! How did that happen?" America has come into control of Iraq. Germany came into control of Poland. Do you think I should rename Partitions of Poland to Changes in control of Poland? "They involved Prussia, Russia and Austria dividing up the Polish-Lithuanian lands between themselves." That looks viciously POV to me. Perhaps it should be rewritten "The state that some described as Prussia {we must allow for those who feel that states are illegitimate and those who opposed the Prussian state in particular}, the state some described as Russia and the state some described as Austria coming into control of parts of what had previously been controlled by the states known as Poland and Lithuania by some". Or are we only destroying the English language in the case of Israel? Grace Note 07:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Marsden has inserted the following argument:
The "continuous Jewish presence" in the Land of Israel sometimes claimed by supporters of Israel was, prior to the beginning of modern Zionism, largely "maintained" by the profoundly anti-Zionist Neturei Karta group
This appears to be entirely original research; that is, an argument invented by Marsden to specifically counter other arguments in the article. I note that all the arguments on the "Disputed" side are fully and properly sourced, yet many of the arguments on the "Occupied" side have no sources whatsoever. While I wouldn't dispute the argument that most of the world's nations and press use the term "Occupied", this particular argument of Marsden seems quite dubious. Can someone source it please? I've asked for sources, but so far the only response has been to revert out the request for citation. Jayjg (talk) 18:20, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
What relevance does the issue of a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel have to this article at all? It seems to me that this statement is completely irrelevant to the article, whether or not it's original research. john k 19:40, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Proponents of the term "disputed" may also like to talk about a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel. I don't see how these issues are even slightly related to one another. I have seen the "continuous presence" argument used as an argument in favor of the existence of the State of Israel. Can you provide a citation that this is used as an argument with respect to the use of the term "occupied territories." I'm really confused here - there was no mention of the issue of "continuous presence" until Marsden added it along with a partial refutation of it, was there? I thought I was agreeing with you that Marsden's addition should be removed. john k 01:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Can various editors (e.g. Huldra, Dervish) explain the rationales behind their blind reverts? For example, they insist on stating that the designation is "disputed by Israel", when it is obviously disputed by far more than just Israel, and at the same time many within Israel do not dispute it at all. Also, they seem to be ignoring the lengthy discussion above about the POV pushing that inserts a strategic argument about water into the middle of the text, but ignores 5 or so other compelling reasons why Israel holds on to the territory, and ignores the fact that this is nowhere else an article which discusses strategic reasons for any of these actions. In addition, they are removing requests for citation, which decidely against Wikipedia policy, and creating an introduction that both begs the questions raised in the article, and also doesn't actually refer to the title of the article, both against Wikipedia policy. I could go on, but that's enough for now. Jayjg (talk) 18:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
One editor of this article has variously made complaints about, first, what he characterizes as "POV forks (sic)" of a single article on the Occupied Territories, and next, about the "irrelevant (sic)" and "original research (sic)" discussion of the water resources that are significant to the control of the territories.
Meanwhile, the "Terminology" section explodes into the debate about the legitimacy of Israel's presence in the territories, and another section briefly discusses the legal status of the Palestinians under occupation.
There clearly needs to be something in Wikipedia on the significance of water in the Occupied Territories. I don't think it is so complicated a matter that it needs its own entry, but one editor continually objects to any reference to it here. Should water be discussed in this article, or should I start another article on "Water in the Occupied Territories" to address it?
Marsden 20:56, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I think Jay's view here makes more sense. Obviously, the water issue deserves discussion somewhere. I'm not sure why it ought to be discussed in this article. john k 01:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
It's a point that needs arguing. The minority view on evolution has not forced that article to have a section on "terminology". There is no long discussion in that article about various understandings of the word "theory", unless the creationist POV pushers have had a crack at it. It remains true, whether you like it or not, that very few people hold the view that the territories in question should be described as "disputed" rather than "occupied". It is not actually important whether their arguments strike you (or Jay, or Slim, or Marsden) as credible or compelling. What matters is that it's a tiny minority view, and should be weighted accordingly. If editors here don't support the NPOV policy, I suggest they create their own fork, in which they can give whatever weight they like to tiny minority POVs, and need never mention that Israel has, in the view of practically the entire world, conducted a military occupation of several territories to which it makes a claim. Grace Note 07:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be a misunderstanding about original research and arguments. Simply supporting one's own personal arguments with citations does not stop it from being original research. In fact, much original research consists of well-cited facts strung together to come to a novel conclusion. For example, the argument is made that Contrary to Israeli pronouncements, international law broadly holds self-determination to be a basic human right, and recognizes the natural sovereignty of any people in the territory where they live, and the citation given is a G.A. Resolution from 1962. Now, this is a flawed argument if for no other reason than G.A. Resolutions are not binding, nor do they create international law. However, that is not even relevant, because a more fundamental flaw exists: the section in question presents arguments that proponents and opponents make regarding whether or not the territories are occupied. How could a G.A. Resolution from 1962 which mentions neither Israel or the territories, made 5 years before Israel even captured them, possibly be an argument that Israel is occupying them? Compare that with the point I added, that the Israel Supreme Court recently ruled the territories were under "belligerent occupation" - that, clearly, is an argument in favour of the territories being occupied. In order to understand whether an argument is original research, the question that must be asked is "Who makes this argument, and where do they make it?" If the answer to the former is "a Wikipedia editor", or to the latter is "I don't know", then that argument cannot be used as it is clearly original research. Jayjg (talk) 01:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
To be more explicit, from the policy itself: A Wikipedia entry (including any part of an article) counts as original research if it proposes ideas; that is...it introduces an argument without citing a reputable source, which purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position. Jayjg (talk) 01:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Jay. However, the consequence of this must be that we remove the "Terminology" section entirely. The reason for this can be seen by looking at what, at second glance, is an error in part of that section. When the "pro-Palestinian" arguments are presented, the paragraph begins, "For Palestinians, the Syrian residents of the Golan Heights, and their supporters, ..." However, this is inaccurate. It would be more accurate to begin the paragraph with, "For everyone in the world other than the Israeli government, part of the Israeli population, and certain Zionists around the world ...."
But then the problem arises, how do we site arguments by this vast and diverse group? Unlike the "disputed territories" arguments, there is no organized group trying to foist this position on the world; there are no websites maintained, no offices staffed, no fund-raising campaigns. The position is essentially self-evident. No one, not even the Palestinians, thought that there would ever be any serious contention over whether or not the Israeli military controlling a land territory heavily populated by non-Israelis should be considered "occupation."
This is something like the Evolution-Intelligent Design "debate": it is very easy for the ID people to give the appearance of having the stronger argument because they have people spending all day working on shooting holes in the Evolution argument, and publicizing their work, while the Evolutionists pay no attention to the Intelligent Design arguments because they are not based in any real way on empirical science.
So I'm going to comment out the "Terminology" section. I think a better solution would be to give the article a correct name, and include a link to the arguments that "occupied" is inaccurate.
Marsden 02:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Is Jay seriously suggesting we should cite everybody who says that the territories are "occupied"? He seems to be. Jay, are you seriously suggesting that we must illustrate the majority point of view by citing everybody who holds it? "Many individuals and groups have strongly argued that the Territories are "Occupied"; all you need do is quote them." certainly seems to be suggesting that. Why don't you answer Marsden's (very good) point? It seems to me also that if one side spends a lot of time sniping at the other, and the other largely ignores or is unaware of the sniping, is it right to give the sniping undue prominence just because of its vehemence? Doesn't that give it a weight it's not due? Why does your "original research" argument not apply to SlimVirgin's contention that there is no occupation because it does not fit the definition someone or other made etc? She didn't even propose to cite that one, just insisted that it was sufficient reason to revert the article's title to her POV. Do the rules only apply to the "other side"? Grace Note 07:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Jayjg that the Terminology section should only contain arguments (made by others) specifically about correctness of the term "occupied" for the territories we are talking about. One of the "disputed not occupied" bullet points is:
The link is to a fairly long article by the Israeli MFA. However, only a small part of that article deals specifically with the terminology issue. It does say that the West Bank and Gaza should not be called occupied because they were not "under the legitimate and recognized sovereignty of any state prior to the Six Day War". OK, that's an argument, but it's in a different bullet point. The MFA article doesn't say ANYTHING about the role the Land of Israel plays in Jewish history or anybody else's history. As to "continuous presence" all it says is:
I don't see how the Israel MFA is offering any kind of argument here that the territories are not occupied. So the 'continous presence' bullet point should be removed altogether, making Marsden's counterargument superfluous. Brian Tvedt 02:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
This is my first edit to this page, I've been trying to follow it for days and have just gotten lost. It seems to me that the best route is to just forget about making it a full-blown article and be content with it being a "disambiguation-plus" page, the "plus" just meaning that it would have a small intro no longer than a paragraph and a list of links to the various pages. I think most of what is currently in the article is already in the mother-articles as well. Today is Erev Rosh Hashana. This being a page that has brought a lot of people together (for better or worse), I guess it would be a good place to wish those of you who celebrate a Shana Tova! Ramallite (talk) 03:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
A certain user currently has on the his user page 6 cases of the text "Occupied Territories" linking to "Occupied_Territories_(Israeli)" on a single page. Does this sound like a case of bad-faith googlebombing? Andjam 06:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps people should review Wikipedia:No original research. Jayjg (talk) 18:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
What sort of sockpuppetry was saxet supposedly engaging in? I didn't know that the kind of sockpuppetry that the block log accuses him of - using variations of the same name - was a blockable offense. john k 23:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
There is no policy, as far as I can tell, against sockpuppetry, per se. What is forbidden is the use of a sockpuppet to disrupt or to get around rules/polling limits. I doubt that saxet did any of these things: he was in all likelihood banned without good cause. Marsden 03:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that we have a vote on whether or not "Occupied Territories" (or "Occupied Territories (Israeli)") is the most appropriate, accurate and NPOV title for this article. -- saxet 09:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Most accurate and NPOV
No, another title would be more NPOV
Abstain
Comment - I'm not going to get involved, but it strikes me that this really should be under "Occupied Territories", as the most common name used ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions). As you can see at Talk:East Germany and elsewhere, the naming convention cares little about accuracy - if that's what the world calls X, X is what the article shall be called, if necessary with introductory naming explanation. And lo, we have Occupied territories (which should be Occupied Territories as it's being used as a name, not a description), which IMO is what this article should be merged with (rare agreement on creating new article or no). Definitionally difficult things like southern Lebanon can be explained in the text - there's no need to go through contortions over the article name because of them, if the main topic is clear. Rd232 06:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin asked if anyone objected to her "removing personal attacks." I objected, as did Vizcarra. She went ahead and removed what she saw as personal attacks anyway. I actually thought, in spite of my reservations, that she did a fair job of it, but that she had left some things in and taken some things out in ways that were not appropriate. So I put a very few things back in, and started taking more things out.
Then El C reverted a lot of what I had done. Since there is clearly bad faith here, I have restored it to the discussion by reverting what SlimVirgin did.
Slim, it was a nice idea, and I appreciate the thought and that you -- as far as I could tell -- sincerely tried to do exactly what you said. But naturally it is unacceptable to me to have you -- with whom I disagree in the discussion -- make unilateral changes to the history of the discussion and then to have El C -- whom I consider an abusive editor and who seems to hold grudges against me and others -- revert my parallel unilateral changes. I couldn't have faith that the discussion had not been prejudicially skewed under those circumstances.
Marsden 02:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
On the whole, I don't like the idea that personal attacks should be removed. It distorts how anyone who comes upon the discussion later views it. And it often causes ill will, I think. Let's work on remaining civil for the present, rather than worrying about past personal attacks. john k 03:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I'll revert my last change if El C will agree to banish himself from this article and discussions of it for three days. Marsden 03:26, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
There are two matters in the article in which profoundly lopsided disputes are posed in ways that distorts the actual situation of the disputes.
The first is in the second paragraph, which notes that various legal dispute "are all highly contested." This is technically true, but mainly in the way that prisons in America are filled with people convicted in trials whose objectivity is "highly contested." The rest of the world beyond the government of Israel and some of its supporters has seen as much of the arguments over these matters as it cares to, and has decided that the government of Israel is wrong in each of them.
It may have been me that first offered that the paragraph instead end with, "are all contested by Israel." This was reverted, probably by Jayjg. I'd be willing to agree to something like, "are all highly contested by the government of Israel and many of its supporters," but I consider it thoroughly POV to give the suggestion that very many people or organizations in the world believe anything but that the matter is decided, and that Israel's position is wrong.
The second matter is in the "Terminology" section. Ideally, in my opinion, the article should have a name that includes "Occupied Territories" one way or another, reflecting the overwhelming world-wide view of the matter. And then the "Terminology" section can have just the arguments against using the word "occupied."
But even if a title that I think is thoroughly POV in that it avoids the term "Occupied Territories" is used, listing arguments for using the term along with arguments for not using the term again creates the perception that there is something like an equally weighted debate going on in the matter, which is distinctly not the case. Also, as I discussed before, because the consensus that "occupied" is accurate is so broad, it can be made to appear to be the less well-supported position, given that no group or organization has thought that something so obvious needed to have active support. The "Intelligent Design" sniping at Evolution Theory gives an example of how this works.
So, even if "Occupied" is censored (that's the only way I can describe it, folks) from the title of the article, I think that the "Terminology" section should just have the "not occupied" arguments; it is pretty much impossible to argue the obvious.
I'd like also to add that there is a difference between "occupied" in the common use sense and "occupied" in the Geneva Convention sense. I would consider it far less Orwellian if the supporters of Israel's position would concede that, "yes, the Israeli military does control the territories remaining from the Six Day War conquests, and, yes, those territories do/did have existing populations of non-Israelis, and, yes, these facts in combination fit the common understanding of 'occupation,' but, NO, Israel is not an 'Occupying Power' under the provisions of the Geneva Convention etc. for the following reasons: ..."
Marsden 15:21, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg insists on censoring any mention of the significance of water resources in the territories. I don't think that there is any reasonable doubt that water considerations are extremely high in the concerns of all parties to the disputes over the territories; indeed, Jay's complaint has mainly been that other matters of significance were not also mentioned, and in his view this creates a bias in the article.
As much as has been devoted in this article to the debate over the legitimacy of Israel's presence in the territories, I think it is an odd contortion not to mention specific and objective reasons that anyone cares about the disposition of the territories. Jay mentions religious concerns, and there are certainly defense concerns as well. I disagree with Jay's assertion that some other article ought to address such matters; I think it would be pretty silly to have an article about the territories and the disputes involving them, but then to have to go to some other article for basic facts about the very same territories -- I think Wikipedia has generally encouraged combining articles rather than splitting them up over minor considerations.
Barring a reasonable argument to the contrary, I am going to restore the very minor references to the water resources of the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Jay, I encourage you to add whatever other considerations you think belong, but I can't agree with your censorship of the water matter: some people have regarded water as the only significant underlying matter regarding the territories. If you think other matters should also be mentioned, mention them. If you think a fork of this article should be created, give your reasoning.
Marsden 21:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Historically, Jews have at least as strong of a claim to the West Bank and Gaza Strip as Palestinians do, possibly stronger - the Land of Israel plays a far more important role in Jewish history than in Palestinian or Arab history, and there has been a continuous Jewish presence there for at least three millennia.
This point seems to bear no relation to any of the previous points about whether the Israeli regime in the West Bank and Gaza Strip can be seen as an occupation. Other than this point, the argument seems to be about issues of international law. This point seems to come out of nowhere. Is the importance of Kosovo in Serb history (arguably much greater than that its importance to the Albanians who now mostly inhabit the region) an argument in international law as to what the status of Kosovo is? This argument would seem to be to be an argument as to "why Israel should annex the West Bank and Gaza" or "why Israel has a moral claim to annex the West Bank and Gaza" or "why Israel has a moral claim to expel the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza and then annex them." But it doesn't seem to bear at all on the question of "are the West Bank and Gaza to be considered as occupied territories under international law."
Again, every other point is a legalistic one. This point seems to come from a completely different argument. I see that this point is made (to the everlasting shame of the Israeli government) on the official ministry of foreign affairs website. I still do not see how this makes it a relevant argument. john k 23:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The sentence "The Mountain Aquifer, from which Israel draws over a third of its fresh water resources, is located in the West Bank." is un-sourced and wrong. What is wrong with it ?
First of all the mountain aquifer is not 100% "in the west bank". To say this would be to say that "The Mekong River is in China". The Mekong originate in Tibet as Dza Chu River but i t flows and changes and collect more water else where.
Aquifers are underground rivers and lakes. The Mountain aquifer provides around 600 Million Metric cube per year. About 360 are from wells which are inside Israel green-line borders. (near the green line itself, in places like Rosh -Hayin) Around 140 MMC are from wells in the west bank.
The eastern side (which is actually a separate aquifer provides another 100 MMC.) So overall, the entire West bank wells generate around 240 MMC of which 180 are used by Palestinians in the west bank and 60 by Israel.
In parallel Israel provides some of the water used by Palestinians in the Gaza strip. This I all from personal un-sourced knowledge so it may be wrong and not for inclusion in the article. But what is there now is wrong as well . Can someone provide sources ? Zeq 16:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
And a quick note about water: Israel is near the sea. As such it can never have a water problem. The only issue is cost of desalinization. I have read so much about how the route of the west bank barrier was decided based on water and this is pure rabish. It was decided based topography, )and in some places by the colonies that could be annexed, like in the case of Alfiei Menashe and Rihan) and it is changed by the courts all the time. Zeq 16:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The biggest problem is that it's not relevant to this page; there are other articles that should deal with this. The second biggest problem is that is carefully selected to promote a particular POV. Jayjg (talk) 21:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Could those who advocate that the water issue does not belong here, but should be dealt with in other articles, please specify in which articles, exactly? Thanks, Huldra 22:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Water: There is widely circulated propeganda that water are at the core of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is pure nonsense. The conflict is about national home and alos a touch of religion.
There is the sea, just next to Israel. Desalinization is just a matter of money. The supply of water is unlimited. It would cost by far less to build more desalinization plants (like the one Israel is building in Ashkelon) than to fight wars over water. Under the negev desret there are also large aquifers of salty water. Again only issue of cost. Zeq 05:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I think you should take a look at this:
http://www.water-technology.net/projects/israel/
The Ashkelon facility, on Israel's southern Mediterranean coast, is the first in a series of large-scale seawater desalination units. Others are planned for Ashdod, Palmahim, Kishon and Caesarea.
Zeq 06:37, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
The statements about water that Jayjg deleted are not in a section called "reasons Israel is keeping the territory" and there was no assertion that they are at the "core" of the conflict. They are simple statments of fact that these territories have water resources and that Israel makes use of that water to meet the needs of its own civilian population.
This article is about the territories and Israel's control over them. One of the characteristics of those territories is that they have water--even my little Berlitz Hebrew phrase book mentions that the Golan Heights contain the headwaters of the Jordan river. One of the distinctive aspects of Israel's control over these territories is that they are not held in custodianship, with the resources of those territories being used to meet the needs of the population of those territories themselves, rather Israel has chosen to make use of its control over those territories in order, among other things, to supply water to Israel proper and to the Israel settlements. Zeq's point that Israel COULD meet its water needs by desalinization instead of taking water from the territories doesn't change the fact that Israel DOES take water from the territories.
As to SlimVirgin's point in the edit comments, where is the "reputable, third-party source" that says Jewish "continuous presence on the land" is relevant? Brian Tvedt 13:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I posted this over at SlimVirgin's talk page, but since she hasn't responded, I thought I'd repost it here as well.
You say over at Talk:Yom Kippur War with respect to the Territories under Israeli control article:
Seeing it put like that, I am all the more convinced that this is not a valid way to go about deciding article titles. I say this because we use the term "war" in article titles for conflicts which may not be regarded as wars under international law, or, at least, where there have been arguments made that they are not wars. I think specifically of Korean War, which was officially defined by the US as a "police action," and which, I believe, may have been so defined by the UN. It seems to me that the American position that the Korean War was not a war is quite analogous to the Israeli position that the Occupied Territories are not occupied. Many other wars fought by the US are also officially considered by the US not to be wars, notably the Vietnam War and both conflicts in Iraq. Under international law, any of these conflicts may or may not be considered wars - I'm not really sure. But it's a fact that the official position of the United States government has been that none of these are wars, because only Congress has the power to declare war, and the last time Congress did so was in 1941. Therefore, ipso facto, these conflicts are not wars. And there are various justificatoins as to why - Korea and Gulf War I (and perhaps Gulf War II...) are UN police actions; Vietnam was an effort to aid a friendly government against an insurgency. Our articles on these wars should certainly deal with these issues. But our article titles are very properly at Korean War, Vietnam War, and so forth.
To get back to the "territories under Israeli control," the issue you are having seems to be that whether or not the commonly used name is technically accurate is a matter of dispute, with one side maintaining that it is and the other claiming otherwise. This is evidently true. At the same time, the fact that the technical accuracy of the most commonly used name is under dispute, with POV arguments being made by both sides, does not make the name itself POV. So, even though there is one school of thought which sees the Korean War as not being a war, the name Korean War is still NPOV. Analogously, even though there is one school of thought which sees the Occupied Territories as not being Occupied, the name Occupied Territories is still NPOV. It is the name of the article not because wikipedia is asserting that the territories are occupied, but only because this is, as a matter of fact, the name which they are given. Another example: according to the reigning legal theory in the United States, the Confederate States of America never existed. Secession was illegal, and thus, either a) those individuals in state governments who attempted to secede were behaving illegally, and the southern states never actually seceded at all (Lincoln's position); or b) the southern states were in illegal rebellion, and had no legal right to form a sovereign confederacy, even though their rebellion temporarily deprived them of status as states in the union (the radical republican position). Thus, one might say that there is a POV dispute as to whether or not the Confederate States of America existed. But that does not mean that it is POV to have an article titled Confederate States of America.
Anyway, I won't go on, but my point is basically this: even if the Occupied Territories are not occupied under international law, that doesn't mean that it is POV to use the title "Occupied Territories" when this is how they are most commonly known, and when there is no other commonly used name available. john k 19:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
El C has moved much of the discussion about the term "occupied" to another article; at first glance, I thought this was a bad idea, but it seems to work.
There is a continuing dispute regarding which qualities of the territories should be remarked upon in this article, in particular water. Jayjg has vaguely remarked that such information does not seem to belong in this article; Huldra has asked in which article such information belongs; MPerel has expressed her opinion that water is better discussed at the article on the West Bank barrier; SlimVirgin and Jayjg prefer that either a range of topics or none at all be mentioned; Ramallite mentions defensible borders, biblical titles, population density, strategic assets, tourism value, and airspace control as relevant matters for this article.
There are a lot of articles on topics related to the territories. There is this article, there are a couple articles on occupation generally, there is an article on the Palestinian territories, there are articles about each of the specific territories, there is a lengthy article on the Israeli West Bank barrier, and now there is El C's Occupation naming dispute article. There are very likely others that I don't know or have forgotten about.
In my opinion, the articles specifically about territories (this would mostly exclude the articles about occupation generally and the sub-articles, like El C's and the barrier article, on particular aspects/disputes regarding the territories) should be focused as follows:
Marsden 13:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I have a compromise proposal which I think might break the impasse on the Title argument. Why don't we rename El C's "Occupation naming dispute" article "Occupied Territories (Israeli)"? Those who are looking for an article on the issue will actually get a comprehensive article discussing it; all the "authoritative bodies" which have ruled that the territories are occupied, the lengthy ruling by the ICJ, etc., followed by the four or five lame arguments that it is disputed. The editors who think there should be an article with this title will get an article with this title, which actually lists what the territories are, and a lot of convincing groups saying they are occupied. The editors who think the title is POV will still have to have an article with this title, but at least they get a few (cited) statements at the end as to why they think the terminology is wrong/POV. Jayjg (talk) 19:20, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
There used to be sub-articles, but it is now forbidden, as it implies hierarchy. I agree that the new article has a bad title. But I don't see how an article entirely about whether or not the territories are occupied would be an appropriate article for the title Occupied Territories (Israeli). The article which is here seems to be appropriate for that purpose - it discusses each of the territories and their status. If someone looks up Occupied Territories, they are likely looking for a definition, for basic information about what these territories are/were and what their status is. They are not necessarily looking for a long semantical/legalistic dispute. john k 21:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The name "Occupation naming dispute" is in any case misleading, as it is more then merely a semantic dispute. That article should be renamed into something more appropate, the proposal from Jayjg sounds ok but not excellent, see Johns comments above. However, Marsden has some points regarding _this_ article. Territories under Israeli control is not very specific. If it deals with the territories occupied (or "captured") during the 1967-war, why not use that as the name, e.g. "Territories captured during the 1967 conflict by Israel". Althoug a bit lengthy ("by Israel" might be dropped) this is unambigous and not controversial in any respect. Its also better with regard to territories such as the Sinai peninsula, which is not under Israeli control but _were_ occupied (captured if you wish) during the six day war (and dealt with in this article). Cybbe 22:05, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it's essential that Occupied Territories (Israeli) continue to redirect to this article. In the real world that phrase always refers to a piece of land, never to an argument. I don't see this as a compromise between your position and Marsden's, it actually takes Marsden further from his goal by burying the phrase Occupied Territories more deeply. Brian Tvedt 03:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Alright, since my long post was utterly ignored except for Andjam trying to claim that the Tonkin Gulf Resolution is basically like a declaration of war, I thought I'd try to start discussion along the same lines. For those opposed to including "occupied" in the title...what is your opinion of the following titles...
If you accept these titles, on what basis are they to be distinguished from "Occupied Territories" as a name for the territories Israel conquered in 1967.
May I ask a further question? Jay has linked to a page where the Israeli foreign ministry objects to the term "occupied territories." But all of the arguments in use apply only to the West Bank and Gaza. They do not apply to the Golan Heights, and they would not have applied to the Sinai when Israel occupied it. Is there any dispute that the Golan Heights and the Sinai are/were "occupied territories"?
And a further point - if the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the Occupied Territories are, indeed, occupied, how can this be gainsayed by a propaganda pamphlet put out by the foreign ministry? Doesn't the view of the Israeli Supreme Court automatically become the official legal position of the State of Israel? If the Israeli Supreme Court has called these territories occupied, it seems to me that it is not "every state in the world except Israel" which recognizes them as occupied - it is "every state in the world, including Israel." Has the highest court in Turkey ever ruled that the treatment of the Armenians was genocide? I'm fairly certain that the US Supreme Court never ruled that the Korean War was a war. john k 04:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
The general point of departure of all parties – which is also our point of departure – is that Israel holds the area [earlier defined as "the areas of Judea and Samaria"] in belligerent occupation. . .
Without trying to argue the merits of differences, I'll try to list some of the differences that could be argued in some of the cases:
Andjam 11:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
May I add that I find it irritating to counter points which you are unwilling to say you agree with. I don't care what someone might argue. I am not stating various things that someone might argue. I am making my own arguments, that I believe in. If I am going to try to argue with someone, I would appreciate it if they would do the same, instead of throwing out a bunch of potential arguments that, if refuted, they can simply pull out of. Do you think the cases are different?
If you do, how do you think they are different? Why is Korean War acceptable, and Occupied Territories not? Why is Armenian Genocide acceptable, and Occupied Territories not. On the first, your claim seems to be that "occupied" is a much, much more negative term than "war." I am utterly unconvinced that "occupied" has a particularly negative connotation.
What negative connotation it does have is largely due to the way people view the very issue under discussion - Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Basically, the Israelis themselves have tainted the word "occupation" with their 38 year occupation of the Palestinian Territories, so now the word itself is POV to describe the very thing which made the word have a negative connotation in the first place!
Side point: does anyone dispute that the Palestinians in the territories are a people under occupation? Clearly, they are afforded no national rights; they have no legal voice in the government of the ultimate authority over them; and the IDF is more concerned with protecting settlers against them than with protecting them. What is the name of their condition, if not "occupation?" And then, how can a people under occupation live in territory that is not occupied? Marsden 16:50, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
God, this is getting ridiculous. Jay and Slim just tag team on niggling procedural arguments, and we get nowhere. Personally, I'm not going to listen to a further thing either one of them says until they address at least a couple of the substantive arguments I made in the sections "this is getting ridiculous," "is legalistic argument relevant to the article title," "let's substantiate here," and "Legal dispute." Now, I know I made a lot of points, and I don't expect a point by point response. But I do think that if they are going to continue to object to a move, they have to at least give some indication of what they think of these arguments, since I think that a fair number of new points which were not previously addressed were brought up here. If you want to dispute something, especially if you want to dispute it against a clear majority, you have to actually engage with the arguments your opponent is making. Throughout this argument, I've at least tried (I'm not sure I've always succeeded) to understand what those I disagree with are saying, and to take that into account in my comments. For a few weeks now I've been trying to explain myself in different ways to see if I could persuade them, or at least to get a better sense of what their line of reasoning is. All of these attempts have simply been met by silence - no response at all. The "this is getting ridiculous" section saw SlimVirgin respond by taking issue with me saying that one of her arguments was a straw man. None of my other arguments was addressed by Jay or Slim at all. MPerel did respond, equivocally, to this section, and Andjam tried to rebut (unconvincingly, imo, but, obviously, that's just my opinion). After a long hiatus when other things were discussed, and we had that farce of a vote, Marsden again tried substantive argument in the "equivalence fallacy" section. Once again, Jay and Slim ignored it, and only Andjam responded - and he wasn't even responding to Marsden's arguments, but attacking Marsden on the basis of earlier statements. Sometime after that, in the wake of Grace Note's WP:POINT violating attempt to move Yom Kippur War, I posted what is now the "legalistic argument" section to Slim's talk page - no response. I then posted it here. Still no response, except an inadequate one from Andjam. Next major action on the title is Jay proposing a dubious "compromise," which provoked some discussion of what we might call this article if we don't use "occupied." Then I write "Let's substantiate here," which was a direct attempt to engage Jay and Slim in explaining themselves further. Both ignored it. Andjam, once again, was up to the challenge, and responded to my points. We did receive Jay's comment "'Occupation' has a specific legal meaning, which is precisely the issue raised by those who oppose its use," in response to a side comment by Marsden, though. Jay again ignores the point raised in rebuttal that "war" and "genocide" also have specific legal meanings, and that we use these words in article titles on subjects where their precise legal applicability has been under dispute. Finally, I write up "legal dispute". Once again, no response, save one quibble from Andjam, which he offered without any support whatever. Then ElC proposes that we just get on with it and move it. In opposition, Slim refers us back to the poll, which didn't show consensus. Jay joins in more on the poll. I complain about the poll talking. And Slim says the poll stuff is all my fault anyway, and I'm being mean.
This is absurd. Jay and Slim's silence in response to repeated substantive criticisms of their position clearly doesn't arise out of a lack of attention to this page - they are clearly continuing to watch it, and intervene in other content disputes (as Jay has done in the continuing discussions about water), and in procedural based disputes (as both Jay and Slim have done in the most recent section). This is just unacceptable. If you're going to bar the way on a page move that a majority supports, the least you can do is address the arguments your opponents are making. It is one thing to come to a vote and not provide an explanation. It is quite another thing to watch over an article, to continue to make procedural points whenever anyone steps out of line, and to continually ignore substantive arguments. Is this really the kind of precedent we think should be set on how content disputes are to be resolved? Until Jay and/or Slim provide some kind of substantive defense of their position, which they have not done in two weeks now, I don't see why their continued opposition to a move should paralyze us. john k 07:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There are several related disputes that have raged on the pages Talk:Occupation of the Palestinian territories, Talk:Zionism and Talk:Occupied territories. The issue that should be resolved first, in my opinion, because it is completely blocking progress, is whether this article should be merged into Occupation of the Palestinian territories or vice versa. No one has expressed support for keeping both articles. Once we have one article, we will have a single place to address the related issues, particulary what is the proper usage of the terms "occupied territory" and "disputed territory" within Wikipedia articles.
So far, Jayjg, Viriditas, Humus sapiens, and SlimVirgin seem to feel strongly that Occupied Territories (Israeli) should be merged into Occupation of the Palestinian territories. Me, Marsden and (I think) Grace Note believe that Occupation of the Palestinian territories should be merged into Occupied Territories (Israeli). The reasons I believe this is the way the merger should be done are:
I suggest we defer discussion on other issues, particularly what the title of the surviving article should be, until the merger issue is resolved. Once we have one article, we can then discuss how that article should be titled. Also, while the merger discussion is going on I urge that there be no unilateral actions, like major rewrites, blanking, or renaming of either of the articles in question. I hope we can resolve the matter among ourselves, but I am prepared to take this through the Wikipedia mediation process if necessary.
Brian Tvedt 02:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Whatever the article is called, the official positions of both Israel and the PNA concerning the controversy over how the territories are referenced needs to be accurately presented. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 06:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, your edits seem a clear violation of Wikipedia guidelines. You should not be making edits to this page solely for the purpose of retaliation against another user for changes that user made on a different page, whether that user violated an "agreement" or not. I have provided specifc reasons why the more specific article should be merged into this one. You have not provided any reason for doing it the other way. In fact it doesn't make sense, since you say you want an article on the more general topic. Brian Tvedt 02:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Although there was consesus to merge the articles, the title change was done without discussion. I agreed to it, but Marsden did not, and he certainly has the right to speak for himself on the point. He should not have reverted the text of the article just because he disagreed with the title, though.
That being said, Marsden is a relatively new user. You, on the other hand, are a sysop and a member of the arbitration committee, and therefore your misbehavior is of far more serious concern.
I have to say, if you were in favor of the merger, your repeated blanking of the agreed on target page was not very helpful. Brian Tvedt 11:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
This is a true merge, integrating the text of the other article into this one, not a simple blanking and redirect. There are still rough spots and I may not have removed all duplication.
There seems to be consensus on the direction of the merge, as nobody raised any specific objection to merging in the direction I proposed and argued for. Also, we all apparently agree that the scope of the article should be territories captured by Israel in the 1967 war.
As to the title, I favor Territories under Israeli control which seems neutral, and doesn't suffer from the objections of "occupied territory" or "disputed territory". Brian Tvedt 02:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
This is totally unacceptable. The entire world, bar a very small majority, calls these the "occupied territories". Naming this article according to the minority view would be similar to having an article called the supposed deity named God or the false theory of evolution. Grace Note 03:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Why "occupied territories" should be used in Wikipedia is because: United Nations uses it, Amnesty International uses it, U.S. Department of State uses it, the CIA uses it, the Human Rights Watch uses it, Reuters uses it, and so forth. -- saxet 02:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I concur - they are called the Occupied Territories. The current title is a ridiculous euphemism. john k 04:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I've started a copy edit but now can't insert it because Marsden keeps reverting, so I'm pasting it in here until he stops. It's absurd that you're now holding up improving the article, Marsden, and keep reverting to a version with poor writing for the sake of making whatever your point is (I've lost track of whether you even have one). I'm pasting here what I'd done before his latest revert. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
If only the article were about Israeli bitching about the rest of the world calling the territories it is occupying "the occupied territories" and not the occupied territories themselves, this would all be tremendous! Why not go and write a POV article about how we're all wrong to call the territories "occupied" and leave this one for the facts about the occupation? Grace Note 07:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Do Israeli supporters say that this situation is consistent with democracy? If so, okay, but if no source is made handy, it should probably be rephrased. El_C 12:52, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
In line with the elimination of any reference to "occupation" in the title, I'm going to change all direct uses of the term "Israel" to "the Zionist Entity," or some variation of that. As most of you probably know, many countries do not recognize the State of Israel, and many people throughout the Muslim world do not acknowledge its existence, so it would be POV to use that term: "Israel" is pro-Israeli POV; "Zionist Entity" is NPOV; and things like "den of vipers" or "blight upon the earth" are Palestinian/Arab POV.
While some of you may think that this is outrageous, it really isn't, or at least it is less outrageous than the fait accompli of eliminating direct references to "Israeli occupation" because that term is POV. It is official Wikipedia policy that cultural bias is NPOV, and worldwide, there is much more dispute as to whether the State of Israel is legitimate than there is as to whether Israel occupies the Occupied Territories.
Obviously, I'm going to have an awful lot of editting to do all throughout Wikipedia in order to eliminate the POV term "Israel," so I'll welcome help from wherever I can get it. I'll allow a day or so for people to comment. Marsden 13:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Marsden, I have to interject here - we argued vehemently once before, and reached accomodation that allowed us to work together on a contentious article; I thought your ideas were valuable, and the improved opening paragraphs of the Zionism article reflected that. When the Occupied Territories fight started on that page, I tried several times to develop compromises, but have since dropped out of that debate because I didn't want to get involved in an edit storm that would drive me crazy, and because it seemed like the chance of achieving reasoned discussion and consensus between the two sides was unlikely. So, with this as context, I have to tell you that I find your proposal quite troubling, in that it is definitively a WP:POINT issue that goes far beyond your ongoing arguments over the issue of the occupied territories or whatever you are fighting over. If I understand you, you are threatening to remove the word Israel from the articles on Jewish history or Berihah or the Irgun or any one of the thousands of other pages not related to your dispute because you are having a fight on this page? I know you are frustrated, and that you are trying to make a point with this, but trying to make a point by attacking other articles is exactly the kind of destructive behavior that threatens the integrity of Wikipedia as a whole and draws in editors like myself who would otherwise have at least listened to a more reasonable debate on the topic. You are not going to convince anyone with this approach, and attempts to point out contradictions in people's positions through over-the-top proposals is not an effective argumentation technique, it undermines any points you might have, and makes it seem like you are not acting in good faith. Please reconsider your approach. -- Goodoldpolonius2 15:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll just reiterate WP:POINT. Not that it isn't absurd that the term Occupied Territories has been banned. john k 04:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Brian, in the terminology section, these positions are not stated as fact, but as argument. In attributing that argument to the settlers and their supporters, you're qualifying it. The section already says that these are arguments used by Israel's supporters. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Marsden, did you do a cut and paste move of this talk page? That's a big no no. john k 13:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Cut and paste moves destroy the history. They are always to be avoided. john k 14:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Marsden keeps inserting this paragraph into the article:
A central strategic concern of Israel in the West Bank is maintaining control of the Mountain Aquifer, which supplies over a third of Israel's fresh water resources. Israel has strictly limited Palestinian well-digging in the West Bank, resulting in water access for Palestinians there that is near the limits necessary to sustain human life, as reported by the United Nations. These limits help to preserve the Aquifer for Israeli use.
Can someone explain what this original research strategic analysis is doing in the middle of a discussion of the political history of the territories? Did the Sinai Peninsula section discuss the "strategic concern of Israel" regarding Oil supplies, for example (the Sinai Peninsula had Israel's only working oil wells, as far as I know)? And why the focus on water, and not, say, on military issues (e.g. strategic depth)? The entire rest of the article discusses the political and legal history of the territories in question, why is this out-of-place argument being inserted? Is this article to be a reprise of the Arab-Israeli conflict article, or West Bank article? Jayjg (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
There are two issues here. The first is the narrow focus on water resources as being the key issue, which is a highly POV approach. There are many issues in the conflict. For some the issue is purely religious; this is land that they believe God promised them. For others the issue is about Jewish ownership of the land, and Zionist ideals. For others the issues are all military (strategic depth). For others, the issues are mostly political (don't give up something for nothing). Your focus on one narrow view of what it is about (water) creates a distorted POV for this section. The second, larger issue is that this is not an article about what various people think are the "real" reasons why Israel insists on controlling the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but rather a simple description of the political history of the territories in question. Attempting to shift the focus of this article for just this small section is another way of POVing it. Jayjg (talk) 16:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I was planning on inserting something about the Sinai oil fields, but haven't got around to it. Of course the water issue is relevant. Brian Tvedt 11:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
It probably would be appropriate -- in order to prevent POV forks, as you like to say when it suits you, Jay -- to have sections about both the practical significances of the territories and about the conditions there. This isn't a matter of just red states versus blue states, after all -- there are real consequences both ways in the situation. Marsden 13:31, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we try to separate the article Title dispute from the article contents wars? The article was originally called "Occupation of the Palestinian territories". Marsden created a different version of the article called "Occupied Territories (Israeli)". Brian merged the two and called the result "Territories under Israeli control". Can we have some discussion here about what the ultimate title of this article should be? The opening paragraph can certainly be changed to reflect whatever that title is or becomes. Jayjg (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Occupied Territories, with "Territories" capitalized, seems good enough to me - are there any other places which are referred to as just the "Occupied Territories"? And I agree with Saxet's reasons why the term is NPOV. john k 14:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, if we must have a disambiguator, I'd prefer Occupied Territories (Israel) to Occupied Territories (Israeli). Israeli Occupied Territories would also be acceptable. john k 15:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin and Jayjg/John McW seem to be back to their pattern of just perpetually extending arguments, so that they can claim that the discussion isn't finished if anyone changes the article from their prefered version. It looks, however, like the censorship of "Israeli Occupied" doesn't have very broad support. Marsden 17:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The Hamas analogy is absurd - to begin with, there is no need to disambiguate the terrorist group Hamas from other groups called Hamas. As to the Occupied Territories, on what basis is it POV to say they are occupied? They have not been annexed to Israel, and they are under a military occupation. Does the Israeli government even explicitly deny that they are occupied territories (lower case)? john k 17:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The Jordanians annexed the West Bank. Although this was not recognized by anyone else, it does mean that the area was administered as part of Jordan, which is most certainly not true of the West Bank's treatment by Israel at present. The Jordanians also offered Jordanian citizenship to the Palestinians living in its territory. That being said, you are right about Gaza. But it is a minor point. The world isn't fair. Even if Gaza's status under Egypt and under Israel were the same (I'm not convinced of this), the basic fact is that, as you point out, Gaza and the West Bank were not called "occupied territories" when they were under Egyptian and Jordanian control, and they have been called it since 1967. We can't call Gaza and the West Bank "occupied territories" when they were under Egyptian and Jordanian control, because nobody used the term. People have used the term since 1967 (including, once again, major Israeli publications, specifically including the Jerusalem Post, which is no friend of the Palestinians). The question is not "is it fair that the term was not used when Arabs were in charge of the area, but are used now that the Israelis are"? The questions to ask are 1) "Is it common usage to call them the occupied territories?" The answer is obviously yes. This is how they are most commonly referred everywhere in the world outside Israel. 2) "Is it especially misleading to call them the occupied territories?" I think the answer to this is not really - their administration is certainly describable as one of occupation. Obviously, definitions of occupation can vary, but I think that one can say that the term fits. 3) "Is it betraying an anti-Israel POV to refer to them as the occupied territories?" I think the answer to this is also not really. The US government and the Jerusalem Post both use the term (at least occasionally in the latter case). I'm going to continue with "a phrase cannot be anti-Israel POV if it is used as a straightforward term in the Jerusalem Post. (For more examples another op-ed piece in the Jerusalem Post from someone whose viewpoint appears to be best described as Sharonite - supports the Gaza pull out, but because of relatively hardline views. Here's another usage, from 1991, in what seems to be a timeline article. This article also uses the term. I have yet to see any evidence that "occupied territories" is not only the most commonly used term worldwide, but is also a commonly used term in Israel itself, and not only by the left. Again, the official bargaining position of the Israeli government and the rantings of a few extremist settlers do not trump the common usage of the entire world, and the fact that said usage is not "fair" because people didn't use it about the Egyptians or the Jordanians is completely irrelevant. john k 15:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems that Jayjg, SlimVirgin, and Andjam are the only ones directly insisting against a title using some combination of "Israel," "Occupied," and "Territory." Brian Tvedt, based on his actions, might choose to join them. I, saxet, John K, Grace Note, and El C, among the people commenting here on the matter, are in favor of it. Five to (at best) four, although perhaps making the motion I'm about to make will get more people out of the woodwork.
I suggest that we decide on a name for the article that incorporates the above term, and make the name change.
At one time, I had made an "Occupied territories" disambiguation page between "Occupied Territories (Israeli)" and "Occupied territories (general meaning)," and we might do something like that again. Marsden 19:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Aye?
Nay?
It's too early for voting, which is a bad idea in any event. Rather then closing down discussion after, oh, about 4 hours and 5 participants, why don't we wait for a full discussion of the topic, with many others having a chance to weigh in. Jayjg (talk) 19:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC) (Vote "Nay," then, Jay.)
Marsden, are you still threatening to delete the word "Israel" from every article if you lose the vote? I am confused as to the nature of the debate here. -- Goodoldpolonius2 22:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
With Jay and Slim, any assumption I had of good faith was beaten out of me long ago. Sorry, but that's the way it is. They are just nasty, and not only with me -- I am appalled at some of the veiled threats they have made against users who are making their very first contributions here; they must scare away dozens of potential contributers whose only mistake is thinking that their input might be welcome. When it comes to their pet topics, they are bullies, pure and simple. Marsden 00:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Abstain
In the Terminology section, I think that the case for or common usage of the term "Occupied Territories" should be listed first since it is the most commonly used phrase. It seems strange to read objections to the term before it's been introduced. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 20:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Just to see how Wikipedia has dealt with other "contentious" terminology, I just looked up Armenian Genocide, which some of you may know the Turkish government denies ever happened and pressures other governments around the world to refrain ever from referring to it. The title of the article is plainly, "Armenian Genocide," though it has a POV flag and the opening paragraph includes the sentence,
(On the talk page is a quote allegedly from the Turkish embassy website that uses the term, "the Armenian experience," which I believe was also the name of a band that played at the Monterrey Pop Festival in 1968, although I may be mistaken about that.) The next paragraph begins,
I'd call that a very weak sentence, actually: it would be more accurate, I think, to write that only a few scholars, most of them from Turkey, dispute that the events constitute a genocide, but the Turkish government has managed to persuade many other governments and the UN not to make reference to it. The reality of the situation is that the term "genocide" was coined specifically to refer to the "Armenian experience;" it's something like the Xerox corporation protesting not against people referring to photocopying with other machines as "xeroxing," but against people referring to photocopying with Xerox machines as "xeroxing."
Anyway, MPerel made a suggestion about having a "neutral" title, with links to it from the various "non-neutral" names, and even SlimVirgin was agreeable to that, which is great progress, really: previously, she and Jayjg had been attempting to obliterate any links that suggested Israeli occupation. Had this suggestion been made long ago, I probably would have gone along with it. But at this point I think it would just end up being a resting position, where most people would think the matter had been settled and would stop paying attention to it. Then after a while Slim and Jay and a couple others would get their daggers out again, and fully restore their POV censorship. So now I think it's more important to keep the light of day on this censorship effort.
So, I think that if Turkey can have the label "genocide" stuck onto something it is responsible for but denies, and something that it has largely managed to avoid UN and other governmental reference to, then Israel should have little complaint about having the comparatively minor label of "occupation" stuck onto its situation, which is probably even more agreed upon than the Armenian Genocide.
Marsden 14:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Another form of comparison shopping: A much more informative online article on the Occupied Territories than Wikipedia is likely to manage: Countrystudies:Israel:The Occupied Territories
It was previously argued that the article didn't make sense because the article definition would include pre-1967 Israel. Maybe the article could be renamed from "Territories under Israeli control" to "Territory under Israeli control" and include pre-1967 Israel. This'd make information more contiguous, rather than splitting between pre-1967 and post-1967 areas.
Splitting between pre-1967 and post-1967 implies that the pre-1967 borders aren't disputed. Most of the Palestinian militant groups don't see pre-1967 Israel as undisputed. Andjam 15:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact that there seems to be substantial support for turning an article about the territories that came under Israeli control after the 1967 war into a general article on - I'm not sure what - the fact that Arabs don't recognize Israel? - is most distressing. I thought I'd try to lay out a rationale for naming the article "Occupied territories (Israel)" or something along those lines.
Anyway, that's my basic feeling. A few final points, and then a proposal:
Finally, it doesn't look to me that this is going to be resolved by discussion. I think that Marsden's proposal of a vote was probably the right way to go. Obviously, we shouldn't just start a vote, as Marsden did. But perhaps we should try to come up with procedures for a vote that could resolve this issue. Anyone with me? john k 15:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Slim - I am not ignoring your criticism of the commun use argument, but I don't find the examples you use relevant. The woman example is particularly irrelevant, since it's based on the faulty idea that the fact that nearly every world government and the UN use the term "occupied territories" is somehow comparable to the fact that there's a lot of people who think women are inferior to men. These simply are not comparable. Furthermore, as I've noted before, naming policy is a different matter from general NPOV issues. We are discussing naming policy, and your woman example had nothing to do with naming policy, unless you are suggesting that "inferior creature" is a more commonly used name in English than "women." That's why it's a straw man. As to "there's no reason whatsoever for Wikipedia to go along with the use of terms, no matter how commonly they're used, if they're used inconsistently, and are disputed by one of the parties," I don't think that is a very accurate representation of wikipedia naming policy at present. Things being "used inconsistently," as I noted previously arguing against Jay, is not an argument at all - terms are always used inconsistently. That's the way of the world. Some European monarchs have their names usually anglicized, others do not. It is not wikipedia's job to impose a false uniformity. The second point is valid to an extent, but there are very frequently instances where there is simply no name which is not "disputed by one of the parties." This is, for instance, the case with American Civil War - southern partisans prefer to call it the War between the States, or occasionally the War of Northern Aggression or the War for Southern Independence. But we still use American Civil War, even though it might be considered vaguely POV, because it is by far the most common name, and there is no other title that would be more NPOV. This basic issue seems to be the case here. Here's what Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) has to say in the "don't overdo it" section: Also, some terms are in common usage but are commonly regarded as offensive to large groups of people (Eskimo and Mormon Church, for example). In those cases use widely known alternatives. So far so good. The extent to which "occupied territories" is "commonly regarded as offensive" to Israelis seems questionable to me, if the Jerusalem Post uses it, but let's even grant that it might be so considered. The problem is, there are no "widely known alternatives." The only moderately alternatives are the even more unacceptable Disputed Territories and Liberated Territories, which are much more clearly POV (do you think a Palestinian newspaper would use "disputed territories" in the way the JPost uses "occupied territories"?) It seems to me that, just as the common usage of American Civil War and lack of obvious alternatives necessitates leaving that article where it is, so the common usage of occupied territories and the lack of any natural alternatives means that this should be the title of that article. Feel free to take issue, but I'd be interested to see how you feel the American Civil War issue is different, and to see if you can provide any real examples of your understanding of naming policy in action. john k 16:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Weighing in briefly, I think John is correct regarding wikipedia naming conventions, but is being rude and overbearing. We choose from the most common terms first (things readers are likely to type in), and then out of those try to err on the side of NPOV. Creating neologisms is O.R., but "useless" is not a polite way to describe someone elses analogy. Sam Spade 18:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey Sam, glad to see you still think I'm rude and overbearing. Also glad to see you agree with me on the substance. But the way you criticize my behavior is totally unfair. It's just like the way Stalin would silence dissent in the Soviet Union. (This analogy, I'm sure you'll find, was extremely useful in stimulating discussion). john k 19:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
please, please, to ALL, can we put aside personal comments, and try to talk to each other respectfully instead? We'll make more progress that way. : ) -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 19:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for being snide. I was purposefully trying to come up with a deeply offensive, and nonsensical analogy to show that one might call an analogy "useless" without being rude. But it didn't help matters at all. john k 19:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
A thought that occured to me... There actually is a psycho-linguistic empirical method of quantifying the level of "loadedness" of a term, which we should perhaps consult and discuss. Let me see if I can find something on that. Also, we should discuss how Middle East scholars refer to our subject. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 21:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
"The fact that there seems to be substantial support for turning an article about the territories that came under Israeli control after the 1967 war into a general article on - I'm not sure what - the fact that Arabs don't recognize Israel? - is most distressing."
As well as those seeking the destruction of Israel, there are also those who argue the land gained by Israel during the 1947 war is negotiable. Were you deliberately trying to set up a False dilemma?
"If we want to create an article to highlight the fact that Palestinians and many Arab states do not recognize the state of Israel as legitimate, this is not that article. It already has a clear purpose, which would not be served by expanding it with this vague mandate."
I don't think it's helpful having them as separate articles.
"It is not, however, wikipedia's job to come up with NPOV alternative titles. In some instances, the common name rule trumps a very expansive reading of the NPOV policy. Thus, we have Louis XVII of France, who was never king of France, because no other title would be recognizable, even though using this title might imply a legitimist POV."
The name seems perfectly NPOV to me. The title does not say that he's king, and Roman numerals does not a king make: William Henry Gates III is not a king, despite rumours otherwise. The "of France" does not imply that he's king of France, any more than "of Arc" says that Joan is royalty.
"When a name is common enough, as "occupied territories" is, not using it, even if one is not using a propaganda name preferred by one party, can be inferred to be representing a POV."
Rejecting POV should not be seen as POV.
"Because if it does I'm out. I would also like to object to your usage of the term "Middle East" which is extremely POV, and inaccurate. Using the cardinal direction of east to describe the region is a colonial habit and pointless since if you are in China you could refer to the region as the Middle West."
Neither "middle" or "east" are legal terms or pejorative terms, whereas "occupied" is. Andjam 04:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I adore the idea that Israel just happened to "control" the territories. It's not quite descriptive but Orwell would have loved it, I think. "Hey, look, we've just acquired Samaria! Amazing! How did that happen?" America has come into control of Iraq. Germany came into control of Poland. Do you think I should rename Partitions of Poland to Changes in control of Poland? "They involved Prussia, Russia and Austria dividing up the Polish-Lithuanian lands between themselves." That looks viciously POV to me. Perhaps it should be rewritten "The state that some described as Prussia {we must allow for those who feel that states are illegitimate and those who opposed the Prussian state in particular}, the state some described as Russia and the state some described as Austria coming into control of parts of what had previously been controlled by the states known as Poland and Lithuania by some". Or are we only destroying the English language in the case of Israel? Grace Note 07:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Marsden has inserted the following argument:
The "continuous Jewish presence" in the Land of Israel sometimes claimed by supporters of Israel was, prior to the beginning of modern Zionism, largely "maintained" by the profoundly anti-Zionist Neturei Karta group
This appears to be entirely original research; that is, an argument invented by Marsden to specifically counter other arguments in the article. I note that all the arguments on the "Disputed" side are fully and properly sourced, yet many of the arguments on the "Occupied" side have no sources whatsoever. While I wouldn't dispute the argument that most of the world's nations and press use the term "Occupied", this particular argument of Marsden seems quite dubious. Can someone source it please? I've asked for sources, but so far the only response has been to revert out the request for citation. Jayjg (talk) 18:20, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
What relevance does the issue of a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel have to this article at all? It seems to me that this statement is completely irrelevant to the article, whether or not it's original research. john k 19:40, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Proponents of the term "disputed" may also like to talk about a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel. I don't see how these issues are even slightly related to one another. I have seen the "continuous presence" argument used as an argument in favor of the existence of the State of Israel. Can you provide a citation that this is used as an argument with respect to the use of the term "occupied territories." I'm really confused here - there was no mention of the issue of "continuous presence" until Marsden added it along with a partial refutation of it, was there? I thought I was agreeing with you that Marsden's addition should be removed. john k 01:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Can various editors (e.g. Huldra, Dervish) explain the rationales behind their blind reverts? For example, they insist on stating that the designation is "disputed by Israel", when it is obviously disputed by far more than just Israel, and at the same time many within Israel do not dispute it at all. Also, they seem to be ignoring the lengthy discussion above about the POV pushing that inserts a strategic argument about water into the middle of the text, but ignores 5 or so other compelling reasons why Israel holds on to the territory, and ignores the fact that this is nowhere else an article which discusses strategic reasons for any of these actions. In addition, they are removing requests for citation, which decidely against Wikipedia policy, and creating an introduction that both begs the questions raised in the article, and also doesn't actually refer to the title of the article, both against Wikipedia policy. I could go on, but that's enough for now. Jayjg (talk) 18:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
One editor of this article has variously made complaints about, first, what he characterizes as "POV forks (sic)" of a single article on the Occupied Territories, and next, about the "irrelevant (sic)" and "original research (sic)" discussion of the water resources that are significant to the control of the territories.
Meanwhile, the "Terminology" section explodes into the debate about the legitimacy of Israel's presence in the territories, and another section briefly discusses the legal status of the Palestinians under occupation.
There clearly needs to be something in Wikipedia on the significance of water in the Occupied Territories. I don't think it is so complicated a matter that it needs its own entry, but one editor continually objects to any reference to it here. Should water be discussed in this article, or should I start another article on "Water in the Occupied Territories" to address it?
Marsden 20:56, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I think Jay's view here makes more sense. Obviously, the water issue deserves discussion somewhere. I'm not sure why it ought to be discussed in this article. john k 01:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
It's a point that needs arguing. The minority view on evolution has not forced that article to have a section on "terminology". There is no long discussion in that article about various understandings of the word "theory", unless the creationist POV pushers have had a crack at it. It remains true, whether you like it or not, that very few people hold the view that the territories in question should be described as "disputed" rather than "occupied". It is not actually important whether their arguments strike you (or Jay, or Slim, or Marsden) as credible or compelling. What matters is that it's a tiny minority view, and should be weighted accordingly. If editors here don't support the NPOV policy, I suggest they create their own fork, in which they can give whatever weight they like to tiny minority POVs, and need never mention that Israel has, in the view of practically the entire world, conducted a military occupation of several territories to which it makes a claim. Grace Note 07:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be a misunderstanding about original research and arguments. Simply supporting one's own personal arguments with citations does not stop it from being original research. In fact, much original research consists of well-cited facts strung together to come to a novel conclusion. For example, the argument is made that Contrary to Israeli pronouncements, international law broadly holds self-determination to be a basic human right, and recognizes the natural sovereignty of any people in the territory where they live, and the citation given is a G.A. Resolution from 1962. Now, this is a flawed argument if for no other reason than G.A. Resolutions are not binding, nor do they create international law. However, that is not even relevant, because a more fundamental flaw exists: the section in question presents arguments that proponents and opponents make regarding whether or not the territories are occupied. How could a G.A. Resolution from 1962 which mentions neither Israel or the territories, made 5 years before Israel even captured them, possibly be an argument that Israel is occupying them? Compare that with the point I added, that the Israel Supreme Court recently ruled the territories were under "belligerent occupation" - that, clearly, is an argument in favour of the territories being occupied. In order to understand whether an argument is original research, the question that must be asked is "Who makes this argument, and where do they make it?" If the answer to the former is "a Wikipedia editor", or to the latter is "I don't know", then that argument cannot be used as it is clearly original research. Jayjg (talk) 01:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
To be more explicit, from the policy itself: A Wikipedia entry (including any part of an article) counts as original research if it proposes ideas; that is...it introduces an argument without citing a reputable source, which purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position. Jayjg (talk) 01:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Jay. However, the consequence of this must be that we remove the "Terminology" section entirely. The reason for this can be seen by looking at what, at second glance, is an error in part of that section. When the "pro-Palestinian" arguments are presented, the paragraph begins, "For Palestinians, the Syrian residents of the Golan Heights, and their supporters, ..." However, this is inaccurate. It would be more accurate to begin the paragraph with, "For everyone in the world other than the Israeli government, part of the Israeli population, and certain Zionists around the world ...."
But then the problem arises, how do we site arguments by this vast and diverse group? Unlike the "disputed territories" arguments, there is no organized group trying to foist this position on the world; there are no websites maintained, no offices staffed, no fund-raising campaigns. The position is essentially self-evident. No one, not even the Palestinians, thought that there would ever be any serious contention over whether or not the Israeli military controlling a land territory heavily populated by non-Israelis should be considered "occupation."
This is something like the Evolution-Intelligent Design "debate": it is very easy for the ID people to give the appearance of having the stronger argument because they have people spending all day working on shooting holes in the Evolution argument, and publicizing their work, while the Evolutionists pay no attention to the Intelligent Design arguments because they are not based in any real way on empirical science.
So I'm going to comment out the "Terminology" section. I think a better solution would be to give the article a correct name, and include a link to the arguments that "occupied" is inaccurate.
Marsden 02:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Is Jay seriously suggesting we should cite everybody who says that the territories are "occupied"? He seems to be. Jay, are you seriously suggesting that we must illustrate the majority point of view by citing everybody who holds it? "Many individuals and groups have strongly argued that the Territories are "Occupied"; all you need do is quote them." certainly seems to be suggesting that. Why don't you answer Marsden's (very good) point? It seems to me also that if one side spends a lot of time sniping at the other, and the other largely ignores or is unaware of the sniping, is it right to give the sniping undue prominence just because of its vehemence? Doesn't that give it a weight it's not due? Why does your "original research" argument not apply to SlimVirgin's contention that there is no occupation because it does not fit the definition someone or other made etc? She didn't even propose to cite that one, just insisted that it was sufficient reason to revert the article's title to her POV. Do the rules only apply to the "other side"? Grace Note 07:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Jayjg that the Terminology section should only contain arguments (made by others) specifically about correctness of the term "occupied" for the territories we are talking about. One of the "disputed not occupied" bullet points is:
The link is to a fairly long article by the Israeli MFA. However, only a small part of that article deals specifically with the terminology issue. It does say that the West Bank and Gaza should not be called occupied because they were not "under the legitimate and recognized sovereignty of any state prior to the Six Day War". OK, that's an argument, but it's in a different bullet point. The MFA article doesn't say ANYTHING about the role the Land of Israel plays in Jewish history or anybody else's history. As to "continuous presence" all it says is:
I don't see how the Israel MFA is offering any kind of argument here that the territories are not occupied. So the 'continous presence' bullet point should be removed altogether, making Marsden's counterargument superfluous. Brian Tvedt 02:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
This is my first edit to this page, I've been trying to follow it for days and have just gotten lost. It seems to me that the best route is to just forget about making it a full-blown article and be content with it being a "disambiguation-plus" page, the "plus" just meaning that it would have a small intro no longer than a paragraph and a list of links to the various pages. I think most of what is currently in the article is already in the mother-articles as well. Today is Erev Rosh Hashana. This being a page that has brought a lot of people together (for better or worse), I guess it would be a good place to wish those of you who celebrate a Shana Tova! Ramallite (talk) 03:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
A certain user currently has on the his user page 6 cases of the text "Occupied Territories" linking to "Occupied_Territories_(Israeli)" on a single page. Does this sound like a case of bad-faith googlebombing? Andjam 06:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps people should review Wikipedia:No original research. Jayjg (talk) 18:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
What sort of sockpuppetry was saxet supposedly engaging in? I didn't know that the kind of sockpuppetry that the block log accuses him of - using variations of the same name - was a blockable offense. john k 23:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
There is no policy, as far as I can tell, against sockpuppetry, per se. What is forbidden is the use of a sockpuppet to disrupt or to get around rules/polling limits. I doubt that saxet did any of these things: he was in all likelihood banned without good cause. Marsden 03:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that we have a vote on whether or not "Occupied Territories" (or "Occupied Territories (Israeli)") is the most appropriate, accurate and NPOV title for this article. -- saxet 09:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Most accurate and NPOV
No, another title would be more NPOV
Abstain
Comment - I'm not going to get involved, but it strikes me that this really should be under "Occupied Territories", as the most common name used ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions). As you can see at Talk:East Germany and elsewhere, the naming convention cares little about accuracy - if that's what the world calls X, X is what the article shall be called, if necessary with introductory naming explanation. And lo, we have Occupied territories (which should be Occupied Territories as it's being used as a name, not a description), which IMO is what this article should be merged with (rare agreement on creating new article or no). Definitionally difficult things like southern Lebanon can be explained in the text - there's no need to go through contortions over the article name because of them, if the main topic is clear. Rd232 06:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin asked if anyone objected to her "removing personal attacks." I objected, as did Vizcarra. She went ahead and removed what she saw as personal attacks anyway. I actually thought, in spite of my reservations, that she did a fair job of it, but that she had left some things in and taken some things out in ways that were not appropriate. So I put a very few things back in, and started taking more things out.
Then El C reverted a lot of what I had done. Since there is clearly bad faith here, I have restored it to the discussion by reverting what SlimVirgin did.
Slim, it was a nice idea, and I appreciate the thought and that you -- as far as I could tell -- sincerely tried to do exactly what you said. But naturally it is unacceptable to me to have you -- with whom I disagree in the discussion -- make unilateral changes to the history of the discussion and then to have El C -- whom I consider an abusive editor and who seems to hold grudges against me and others -- revert my parallel unilateral changes. I couldn't have faith that the discussion had not been prejudicially skewed under those circumstances.
Marsden 02:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
On the whole, I don't like the idea that personal attacks should be removed. It distorts how anyone who comes upon the discussion later views it. And it often causes ill will, I think. Let's work on remaining civil for the present, rather than worrying about past personal attacks. john k 03:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I'll revert my last change if El C will agree to banish himself from this article and discussions of it for three days. Marsden 03:26, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
There are two matters in the article in which profoundly lopsided disputes are posed in ways that distorts the actual situation of the disputes.
The first is in the second paragraph, which notes that various legal dispute "are all highly contested." This is technically true, but mainly in the way that prisons in America are filled with people convicted in trials whose objectivity is "highly contested." The rest of the world beyond the government of Israel and some of its supporters has seen as much of the arguments over these matters as it cares to, and has decided that the government of Israel is wrong in each of them.
It may have been me that first offered that the paragraph instead end with, "are all contested by Israel." This was reverted, probably by Jayjg. I'd be willing to agree to something like, "are all highly contested by the government of Israel and many of its supporters," but I consider it thoroughly POV to give the suggestion that very many people or organizations in the world believe anything but that the matter is decided, and that Israel's position is wrong.
The second matter is in the "Terminology" section. Ideally, in my opinion, the article should have a name that includes "Occupied Territories" one way or another, reflecting the overwhelming world-wide view of the matter. And then the "Terminology" section can have just the arguments against using the word "occupied."
But even if a title that I think is thoroughly POV in that it avoids the term "Occupied Territories" is used, listing arguments for using the term along with arguments for not using the term again creates the perception that there is something like an equally weighted debate going on in the matter, which is distinctly not the case. Also, as I discussed before, because the consensus that "occupied" is accurate is so broad, it can be made to appear to be the less well-supported position, given that no group or organization has thought that something so obvious needed to have active support. The "Intelligent Design" sniping at Evolution Theory gives an example of how this works.
So, even if "Occupied" is censored (that's the only way I can describe it, folks) from the title of the article, I think that the "Terminology" section should just have the "not occupied" arguments; it is pretty much impossible to argue the obvious.
I'd like also to add that there is a difference between "occupied" in the common use sense and "occupied" in the Geneva Convention sense. I would consider it far less Orwellian if the supporters of Israel's position would concede that, "yes, the Israeli military does control the territories remaining from the Six Day War conquests, and, yes, those territories do/did have existing populations of non-Israelis, and, yes, these facts in combination fit the common understanding of 'occupation,' but, NO, Israel is not an 'Occupying Power' under the provisions of the Geneva Convention etc. for the following reasons: ..."
Marsden 15:21, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg insists on censoring any mention of the significance of water resources in the territories. I don't think that there is any reasonable doubt that water considerations are extremely high in the concerns of all parties to the disputes over the territories; indeed, Jay's complaint has mainly been that other matters of significance were not also mentioned, and in his view this creates a bias in the article.
As much as has been devoted in this article to the debate over the legitimacy of Israel's presence in the territories, I think it is an odd contortion not to mention specific and objective reasons that anyone cares about the disposition of the territories. Jay mentions religious concerns, and there are certainly defense concerns as well. I disagree with Jay's assertion that some other article ought to address such matters; I think it would be pretty silly to have an article about the territories and the disputes involving them, but then to have to go to some other article for basic facts about the very same territories -- I think Wikipedia has generally encouraged combining articles rather than splitting them up over minor considerations.
Barring a reasonable argument to the contrary, I am going to restore the very minor references to the water resources of the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Jay, I encourage you to add whatever other considerations you think belong, but I can't agree with your censorship of the water matter: some people have regarded water as the only significant underlying matter regarding the territories. If you think other matters should also be mentioned, mention them. If you think a fork of this article should be created, give your reasoning.
Marsden 21:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Historically, Jews have at least as strong of a claim to the West Bank and Gaza Strip as Palestinians do, possibly stronger - the Land of Israel plays a far more important role in Jewish history than in Palestinian or Arab history, and there has been a continuous Jewish presence there for at least three millennia.
This point seems to bear no relation to any of the previous points about whether the Israeli regime in the West Bank and Gaza Strip can be seen as an occupation. Other than this point, the argument seems to be about issues of international law. This point seems to come out of nowhere. Is the importance of Kosovo in Serb history (arguably much greater than that its importance to the Albanians who now mostly inhabit the region) an argument in international law as to what the status of Kosovo is? This argument would seem to be to be an argument as to "why Israel should annex the West Bank and Gaza" or "why Israel has a moral claim to annex the West Bank and Gaza" or "why Israel has a moral claim to expel the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza and then annex them." But it doesn't seem to bear at all on the question of "are the West Bank and Gaza to be considered as occupied territories under international law."
Again, every other point is a legalistic one. This point seems to come from a completely different argument. I see that this point is made (to the everlasting shame of the Israeli government) on the official ministry of foreign affairs website. I still do not see how this makes it a relevant argument. john k 23:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The sentence "The Mountain Aquifer, from which Israel draws over a third of its fresh water resources, is located in the West Bank." is un-sourced and wrong. What is wrong with it ?
First of all the mountain aquifer is not 100% "in the west bank". To say this would be to say that "The Mekong River is in China". The Mekong originate in Tibet as Dza Chu River but i t flows and changes and collect more water else where.
Aquifers are underground rivers and lakes. The Mountain aquifer provides around 600 Million Metric cube per year. About 360 are from wells which are inside Israel green-line borders. (near the green line itself, in places like Rosh -Hayin) Around 140 MMC are from wells in the west bank.
The eastern side (which is actually a separate aquifer provides another 100 MMC.) So overall, the entire West bank wells generate around 240 MMC of which 180 are used by Palestinians in the west bank and 60 by Israel.
In parallel Israel provides some of the water used by Palestinians in the Gaza strip. This I all from personal un-sourced knowledge so it may be wrong and not for inclusion in the article. But what is there now is wrong as well . Can someone provide sources ? Zeq 16:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
And a quick note about water: Israel is near the sea. As such it can never have a water problem. The only issue is cost of desalinization. I have read so much about how the route of the west bank barrier was decided based on water and this is pure rabish. It was decided based topography, )and in some places by the colonies that could be annexed, like in the case of Alfiei Menashe and Rihan) and it is changed by the courts all the time. Zeq 16:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The biggest problem is that it's not relevant to this page; there are other articles that should deal with this. The second biggest problem is that is carefully selected to promote a particular POV. Jayjg (talk) 21:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Could those who advocate that the water issue does not belong here, but should be dealt with in other articles, please specify in which articles, exactly? Thanks, Huldra 22:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Water: There is widely circulated propeganda that water are at the core of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is pure nonsense. The conflict is about national home and alos a touch of religion.
There is the sea, just next to Israel. Desalinization is just a matter of money. The supply of water is unlimited. It would cost by far less to build more desalinization plants (like the one Israel is building in Ashkelon) than to fight wars over water. Under the negev desret there are also large aquifers of salty water. Again only issue of cost. Zeq 05:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I think you should take a look at this:
http://www.water-technology.net/projects/israel/
The Ashkelon facility, on Israel's southern Mediterranean coast, is the first in a series of large-scale seawater desalination units. Others are planned for Ashdod, Palmahim, Kishon and Caesarea.
Zeq 06:37, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
The statements about water that Jayjg deleted are not in a section called "reasons Israel is keeping the territory" and there was no assertion that they are at the "core" of the conflict. They are simple statments of fact that these territories have water resources and that Israel makes use of that water to meet the needs of its own civilian population.
This article is about the territories and Israel's control over them. One of the characteristics of those territories is that they have water--even my little Berlitz Hebrew phrase book mentions that the Golan Heights contain the headwaters of the Jordan river. One of the distinctive aspects of Israel's control over these territories is that they are not held in custodianship, with the resources of those territories being used to meet the needs of the population of those territories themselves, rather Israel has chosen to make use of its control over those territories in order, among other things, to supply water to Israel proper and to the Israel settlements. Zeq's point that Israel COULD meet its water needs by desalinization instead of taking water from the territories doesn't change the fact that Israel DOES take water from the territories.
As to SlimVirgin's point in the edit comments, where is the "reputable, third-party source" that says Jewish "continuous presence on the land" is relevant? Brian Tvedt 13:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I posted this over at SlimVirgin's talk page, but since she hasn't responded, I thought I'd repost it here as well.
You say over at Talk:Yom Kippur War with respect to the Territories under Israeli control article:
Seeing it put like that, I am all the more convinced that this is not a valid way to go about deciding article titles. I say this because we use the term "war" in article titles for conflicts which may not be regarded as wars under international law, or, at least, where there have been arguments made that they are not wars. I think specifically of Korean War, which was officially defined by the US as a "police action," and which, I believe, may have been so defined by the UN. It seems to me that the American position that the Korean War was not a war is quite analogous to the Israeli position that the Occupied Territories are not occupied. Many other wars fought by the US are also officially considered by the US not to be wars, notably the Vietnam War and both conflicts in Iraq. Under international law, any of these conflicts may or may not be considered wars - I'm not really sure. But it's a fact that the official position of the United States government has been that none of these are wars, because only Congress has the power to declare war, and the last time Congress did so was in 1941. Therefore, ipso facto, these conflicts are not wars. And there are various justificatoins as to why - Korea and Gulf War I (and perhaps Gulf War II...) are UN police actions; Vietnam was an effort to aid a friendly government against an insurgency. Our articles on these wars should certainly deal with these issues. But our article titles are very properly at Korean War, Vietnam War, and so forth.
To get back to the "territories under Israeli control," the issue you are having seems to be that whether or not the commonly used name is technically accurate is a matter of dispute, with one side maintaining that it is and the other claiming otherwise. This is evidently true. At the same time, the fact that the technical accuracy of the most commonly used name is under dispute, with POV arguments being made by both sides, does not make the name itself POV. So, even though there is one school of thought which sees the Korean War as not being a war, the name Korean War is still NPOV. Analogously, even though there is one school of thought which sees the Occupied Territories as not being Occupied, the name Occupied Territories is still NPOV. It is the name of the article not because wikipedia is asserting that the territories are occupied, but only because this is, as a matter of fact, the name which they are given. Another example: according to the reigning legal theory in the United States, the Confederate States of America never existed. Secession was illegal, and thus, either a) those individuals in state governments who attempted to secede were behaving illegally, and the southern states never actually seceded at all (Lincoln's position); or b) the southern states were in illegal rebellion, and had no legal right to form a sovereign confederacy, even though their rebellion temporarily deprived them of status as states in the union (the radical republican position). Thus, one might say that there is a POV dispute as to whether or not the Confederate States of America existed. But that does not mean that it is POV to have an article titled Confederate States of America.
Anyway, I won't go on, but my point is basically this: even if the Occupied Territories are not occupied under international law, that doesn't mean that it is POV to use the title "Occupied Territories" when this is how they are most commonly known, and when there is no other commonly used name available. john k 19:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
El C has moved much of the discussion about the term "occupied" to another article; at first glance, I thought this was a bad idea, but it seems to work.
There is a continuing dispute regarding which qualities of the territories should be remarked upon in this article, in particular water. Jayjg has vaguely remarked that such information does not seem to belong in this article; Huldra has asked in which article such information belongs; MPerel has expressed her opinion that water is better discussed at the article on the West Bank barrier; SlimVirgin and Jayjg prefer that either a range of topics or none at all be mentioned; Ramallite mentions defensible borders, biblical titles, population density, strategic assets, tourism value, and airspace control as relevant matters for this article.
There are a lot of articles on topics related to the territories. There is this article, there are a couple articles on occupation generally, there is an article on the Palestinian territories, there are articles about each of the specific territories, there is a lengthy article on the Israeli West Bank barrier, and now there is El C's Occupation naming dispute article. There are very likely others that I don't know or have forgotten about.
In my opinion, the articles specifically about territories (this would mostly exclude the articles about occupation generally and the sub-articles, like El C's and the barrier article, on particular aspects/disputes regarding the territories) should be focused as follows:
Marsden 13:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I have a compromise proposal which I think might break the impasse on the Title argument. Why don't we rename El C's "Occupation naming dispute" article "Occupied Territories (Israeli)"? Those who are looking for an article on the issue will actually get a comprehensive article discussing it; all the "authoritative bodies" which have ruled that the territories are occupied, the lengthy ruling by the ICJ, etc., followed by the four or five lame arguments that it is disputed. The editors who think there should be an article with this title will get an article with this title, which actually lists what the territories are, and a lot of convincing groups saying they are occupied. The editors who think the title is POV will still have to have an article with this title, but at least they get a few (cited) statements at the end as to why they think the terminology is wrong/POV. Jayjg (talk) 19:20, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
There used to be sub-articles, but it is now forbidden, as it implies hierarchy. I agree that the new article has a bad title. But I don't see how an article entirely about whether or not the territories are occupied would be an appropriate article for the title Occupied Territories (Israeli). The article which is here seems to be appropriate for that purpose - it discusses each of the territories and their status. If someone looks up Occupied Territories, they are likely looking for a definition, for basic information about what these territories are/were and what their status is. They are not necessarily looking for a long semantical/legalistic dispute. john k 21:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The name "Occupation naming dispute" is in any case misleading, as it is more then merely a semantic dispute. That article should be renamed into something more appropate, the proposal from Jayjg sounds ok but not excellent, see Johns comments above. However, Marsden has some points regarding _this_ article. Territories under Israeli control is not very specific. If it deals with the territories occupied (or "captured") during the 1967-war, why not use that as the name, e.g. "Territories captured during the 1967 conflict by Israel". Althoug a bit lengthy ("by Israel" might be dropped) this is unambigous and not controversial in any respect. Its also better with regard to territories such as the Sinai peninsula, which is not under Israeli control but _were_ occupied (captured if you wish) during the six day war (and dealt with in this article). Cybbe 22:05, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it's essential that Occupied Territories (Israeli) continue to redirect to this article. In the real world that phrase always refers to a piece of land, never to an argument. I don't see this as a compromise between your position and Marsden's, it actually takes Marsden further from his goal by burying the phrase Occupied Territories more deeply. Brian Tvedt 03:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Alright, since my long post was utterly ignored except for Andjam trying to claim that the Tonkin Gulf Resolution is basically like a declaration of war, I thought I'd try to start discussion along the same lines. For those opposed to including "occupied" in the title...what is your opinion of the following titles...
If you accept these titles, on what basis are they to be distinguished from "Occupied Territories" as a name for the territories Israel conquered in 1967.
May I ask a further question? Jay has linked to a page where the Israeli foreign ministry objects to the term "occupied territories." But all of the arguments in use apply only to the West Bank and Gaza. They do not apply to the Golan Heights, and they would not have applied to the Sinai when Israel occupied it. Is there any dispute that the Golan Heights and the Sinai are/were "occupied territories"?
And a further point - if the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the Occupied Territories are, indeed, occupied, how can this be gainsayed by a propaganda pamphlet put out by the foreign ministry? Doesn't the view of the Israeli Supreme Court automatically become the official legal position of the State of Israel? If the Israeli Supreme Court has called these territories occupied, it seems to me that it is not "every state in the world except Israel" which recognizes them as occupied - it is "every state in the world, including Israel." Has the highest court in Turkey ever ruled that the treatment of the Armenians was genocide? I'm fairly certain that the US Supreme Court never ruled that the Korean War was a war. john k 04:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
The general point of departure of all parties – which is also our point of departure – is that Israel holds the area [earlier defined as "the areas of Judea and Samaria"] in belligerent occupation. . .
Without trying to argue the merits of differences, I'll try to list some of the differences that could be argued in some of the cases:
Andjam 11:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
May I add that I find it irritating to counter points which you are unwilling to say you agree with. I don't care what someone might argue. I am not stating various things that someone might argue. I am making my own arguments, that I believe in. If I am going to try to argue with someone, I would appreciate it if they would do the same, instead of throwing out a bunch of potential arguments that, if refuted, they can simply pull out of. Do you think the cases are different?
If you do, how do you think they are different? Why is Korean War acceptable, and Occupied Territories not? Why is Armenian Genocide acceptable, and Occupied Territories not. On the first, your claim seems to be that "occupied" is a much, much more negative term than "war." I am utterly unconvinced that "occupied" has a particularly negative connotation.
What negative connotation it does have is largely due to the way people view the very issue under discussion - Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Basically, the Israelis themselves have tainted the word "occupation" with their 38 year occupation of the Palestinian Territories, so now the word itself is POV to describe the very thing which made the word have a negative connotation in the first place!
Side point: does anyone dispute that the Palestinians in the territories are a people under occupation? Clearly, they are afforded no national rights; they have no legal voice in the government of the ultimate authority over them; and the IDF is more concerned with protecting settlers against them than with protecting them. What is the name of their condition, if not "occupation?" And then, how can a people under occupation live in territory that is not occupied? Marsden 16:50, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
God, this is getting ridiculous. Jay and Slim just tag team on niggling procedural arguments, and we get nowhere. Personally, I'm not going to listen to a further thing either one of them says until they address at least a couple of the substantive arguments I made in the sections "this is getting ridiculous," "is legalistic argument relevant to the article title," "let's substantiate here," and "Legal dispute." Now, I know I made a lot of points, and I don't expect a point by point response. But I do think that if they are going to continue to object to a move, they have to at least give some indication of what they think of these arguments, since I think that a fair number of new points which were not previously addressed were brought up here. If you want to dispute something, especially if you want to dispute it against a clear majority, you have to actually engage with the arguments your opponent is making. Throughout this argument, I've at least tried (I'm not sure I've always succeeded) to understand what those I disagree with are saying, and to take that into account in my comments. For a few weeks now I've been trying to explain myself in different ways to see if I could persuade them, or at least to get a better sense of what their line of reasoning is. All of these attempts have simply been met by silence - no response at all. The "this is getting ridiculous" section saw SlimVirgin respond by taking issue with me saying that one of her arguments was a straw man. None of my other arguments was addressed by Jay or Slim at all. MPerel did respond, equivocally, to this section, and Andjam tried to rebut (unconvincingly, imo, but, obviously, that's just my opinion). After a long hiatus when other things were discussed, and we had that farce of a vote, Marsden again tried substantive argument in the "equivalence fallacy" section. Once again, Jay and Slim ignored it, and only Andjam responded - and he wasn't even responding to Marsden's arguments, but attacking Marsden on the basis of earlier statements. Sometime after that, in the wake of Grace Note's WP:POINT violating attempt to move Yom Kippur War, I posted what is now the "legalistic argument" section to Slim's talk page - no response. I then posted it here. Still no response, except an inadequate one from Andjam. Next major action on the title is Jay proposing a dubious "compromise," which provoked some discussion of what we might call this article if we don't use "occupied." Then I write "Let's substantiate here," which was a direct attempt to engage Jay and Slim in explaining themselves further. Both ignored it. Andjam, once again, was up to the challenge, and responded to my points. We did receive Jay's comment "'Occupation' has a specific legal meaning, which is precisely the issue raised by those who oppose its use," in response to a side comment by Marsden, though. Jay again ignores the point raised in rebuttal that "war" and "genocide" also have specific legal meanings, and that we use these words in article titles on subjects where their precise legal applicability has been under dispute. Finally, I write up "legal dispute". Once again, no response, save one quibble from Andjam, which he offered without any support whatever. Then ElC proposes that we just get on with it and move it. In opposition, Slim refers us back to the poll, which didn't show consensus. Jay joins in more on the poll. I complain about the poll talking. And Slim says the poll stuff is all my fault anyway, and I'm being mean.
This is absurd. Jay and Slim's silence in response to repeated substantive criticisms of their position clearly doesn't arise out of a lack of attention to this page - they are clearly continuing to watch it, and intervene in other content disputes (as Jay has done in the continuing discussions about water), and in procedural based disputes (as both Jay and Slim have done in the most recent section). This is just unacceptable. If you're going to bar the way on a page move that a majority supports, the least you can do is address the arguments your opponents are making. It is one thing to come to a vote and not provide an explanation. It is quite another thing to watch over an article, to continue to make procedural points whenever anyone steps out of line, and to continually ignore substantive arguments. Is this really the kind of precedent we think should be set on how content disputes are to be resolved? Until Jay and/or Slim provide some kind of substantive defense of their position, which they have not done in two weeks now, I don't see why their continued opposition to a move should paralyze us. john k 07:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)