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The lead should fairly characterise the views of both sides. One of the similarities between Israel and South Africa, as conceived by those who use the term, is that both were colonial states. The comparison is fairly interesting because in both cases land rights are nothing like straightforward. One could bicker over whether Israel is a colony or not, but we are representing the views of both sides, not posting the "truth", whatever we believe it is. Grace Note 03:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
As per my edit: The rights and privileges are "disparate" not seperate.
disparate \DIS-puh-rit; dis-PAIR-it\, adjective: 1. Fundamentally different or distinct in quality or kind. 2. Composed of or including markedly dissimilar elements.
The term "separation" refers to physical separation/apartheid. This should also be included in the lead, since the allegations refer to disparate rights AND physical separation of the two groups impose largely by Israel. (i.e. the wall, etc.)
I have tried to make the lead more accurate. Kritt 06:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there a reason we have a list of four countries other than South Africa? The banner seems rather ridiculously POV. Was there a discussion of this that I missed? Mackan79 13:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to butt in on the fun, but all this talk of subsets and supersets, going "up" a category or down, is a red herring, and a rather lurid and pongy one at that. The banner is just a clumsy POV-pushing effort. It lists nine countries (well, eight plus the amateurishly bigoted catch-all "Muslim countries"), only three of which actually link to articles, only two of which in turn existed before today, when Urthogie revved up his google engines and found six instances where the word "apartheid" was used in connection with Australia. 6SJ7 is right that there's an important difference between South African apartheid and the system of rule in the occupied territories so unsettlingly reminiscent of it to so many. There's an equally important difference between the South Africa – Palestine parallels, which have been the central subject of numerous books and articles, scholarly and popular, on the one hand, and the ad hoc for-the-nonce metaphorical usages Urthogie is busy collating and building articles around in his effort at well-poisoning, on the other.
There's an argument you want to make: Israel's been accused of apartheid, but so has everyone else. Fine. Just find a source that makes that argument, and we'll include it. The sources critical of the analogy on the whole don't say this, though. In fact by and large they say precisely the opposite: they say Israel is being singled out for special opprobrium. That's a pervasive argument, so it's well-represented here. As far as I know, however, the argument that everyone's been accused of apartheid – where apartheid is everywhere it's nowhere etc. has only been made by Wikipedians. It doesn't belong here, and certainly not in the form of a coy banner.-- G-Dett 20:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, well double standards aren't allowed. We're keeping this.-- Urthogie 20:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, first of all, sorry for attributing to your personal researches what was in fact culled from that content-dump of an article, Allegations of Apartheid. Now, to your bill of particulars:
Urthogie, what you haven't answered is why you decided the correct infobox here is one which provides the different countries in which Apartheid has been alleged, and yet then nothing about apartheid itself. Your statement about "separate templates for separate levels" is simply nonsensical, as well as inconsistent with the example of Anarchism that you provided. What you're saying here is that all of the United States should link to each other, but shouldn't link to the United States itself, because that's on a different level. Really?
This is the fundamental problem from which the POV is apparent: on a neutral basis, these choices don't make sense. A neutral attempt to give background on this subject would not simply provide other countries where the allegation has been made: it would provide the full information on Apartheid, the crime, the allegations, and everything else. The problem, of course, is that this adds further gravitas to the article, which everybody here is willing to accept is not needed. Equally problematic, though, is what you're attempting to do, which is pick only the information that appears to promote one POV. I say that not as an accusation, but as an objective statement of how it appears to the reader.
Also, you're incorrect again that infoboxes don't have to be sourced. If something is contested as original research, it has to be sourced like anything else. Mackan79 22:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your point-by-point reply above, Urthogie. May I ask however that in the future you provide a single rebuttal to my posts rather than breaking them up into little pieces? My post was intended to present an integrated set of points, rather than a grab-bag. I also think that interjecting point-by-point rebuttals leads quickly to impasse, in the form of thick, gnarled, weed-like arguments between two people, instead of a vigorous but open debate that anyone can join.
With respect, I think you haven't quite answered the objections raised about the value of this infobox and the NPOV issues it raises. There are, as I said, many ways of "categorically grouping concepts," and some are indeed POV-pushing. Frontloading a "handy" list of all the other countries in which apartheid has been "alleged" is as POV-pushing as frontloading a handy list of all the other crimes Israel has been accused of. Now, you keep saying that infoboxes don't need reliable sources. This is true but only in the trivial sense; we don't, that is, include footnotes for infoboxes. The conceptual groupings they endorse, however, should be ones that are important to – or at the very least ones that have occurred to – the reliable sources that provide us with our understanding of the topic in the first place. Infoboxes are not little free zones where WP:NOR doesn't apply, where Wikipedians get to present their own idiosyncratic conceptual frameworks for the material at hand.
You rather breezily waved aside my point about the parallel case of "ethnic cleansing, saying that it's "not comparible to apartheid, because apartheid is named after a specific racist south african policy, while ethnic cleansing is concretely recognizable in some circumstances. 'apartheid', in short, is subjective outside of its original home (south africa)." I think this won't do, and if you don't mind I'm going to return to it and press you a little. Ethnic "cleansing" is a loanword from Serbo-Croatian named after specific policies in the former Yugoslavia, just like apartheid is a loanword from Afrikaans, named after specific policies in pre-1994 South Africa. The fact that you find the application of the term "ethnic cleansing" outside of its "original home" to be self-evidently justified in certain contexts ("concretely recognizable in some circumstances") is – with respect – beside the point. Many prominent persons with no particular axe to grind find apartheid conditions to be "concretely recognizable" in Israel-Palestine. That's also beside the point. What is not beside the point is that in both cases a morally charged historical analogy (apartheid, ethnic cleansing) is invoked in a huge variety of contexts. Sometimes the analogy is meant rhetorically and used merely for moral emphasis (describing the aftermath of Katrina as "ethnic cleansing" underscores the racial and socioeconomic fault-lines the disaster made visible, for example; referring to Cuban tourism as a form of apartheid, similarly, underscores the hypocrisy and unseemliness of a socialist pseudo-utopia kept afloat by a nakedly capitalist tourist economy). At other times the analogy is meant with much greater literalness, and becomes the subject of sustained historical comparisons by scholars, writers, journalists, activists and politicians (this is the case with ethnic cleansing in the Sudan, or apartheid in the occupied territories). An infobox that flattens these distinctions, and creates a single category for them, a category that is "so damn obvious" to Wikipedians with a given POV (but not obvious enough to have penetrated the thick skulls of our reliable sources), is POV-pushing original research. If apologists for the Janjaweed were well-represented on Wikipedia, they'd have a field day making little infoboxes about "allegations of ethnic cleansing," and neatly arraying within them whatever scraps of heated rhetoric they managed to comb together from their internet researches. I'd be opposing them as doggedly as I'm opposing you, so don't take it personally.-- G-Dett 15:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The lead includes the following statement that is not backed up by anything in the rest of the article, and the footnote itself doesn't mention a country "that more closely resembles" Apartheid either. The lead should not included weak and perhaps non-existent claims.
"and that the practices of other countries, to which the term is not applied, more closely resemble South African apartheid. [3]" Kritt 04:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Mainstream sources: Editorial: The 'Israel Apartheid Week' libel from the Jerusalem Post:
Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries deny equal rights to women, Christians, Jews, Hindus and others. Where are the protests against Saudi apartheid?
I can find other sources too if you want to be stubborn.-- Urthogie 15:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Many Islamic nations are criticised for human rights violations, but are RARELY if ever compared to South Africa and Apartheid. Israel, a democracy, is compared to South Africa. That's a big difference. Kritt 20:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7, I don't believe you've explained why you think the lead needs to characterize the analogy as coming from "some critics of Israel." Being gramatically unnecessary, it seems to basically be your OR. If you think it's necessary, feel free to explain why. Mackan79 05:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
His book says there is apartheid in Palestine, especially referencing the territories, but he never says that israel itself practices apartheid. He even makes this clear in speeches and interviews, etc., to it's essentially libel to say he makes this analogy for Israel when he only does it for Palestine. Removed him.-- Urthogie 15:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The only way in which Carter is releveant to this article is his many speeches and article in which he has made clear why he named his book what he did:
Well, he [Dershowitz] has to go to the first word in the title, which is "Palestine," not "Israel." He should go to the second word in the title, which is "Peace." And then the last two words [are] "Not Apartheid." I never have alleged in the book or otherwise that Israel, as a nation, was guilty of apartheid. But there is a clear distinction between the policies within the nation of Israel and within the occupied territories that Israel controls[,] and the oppression of the Palestinians by Israeli forces in the occupied territories is horrendous. And it's not something that has been acknowledged or even discussed in this country. . . . (Italics added.) [2]
Please stop libelling the man. The "apartheid" situation in the West Bank is a criticism of Israeli policies there, but not at all referencing anything close to an "Israeli apartheid" policy as defined by this article.-- Urthogie 16:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Sm8900 16:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)"When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa." (ref: Jimmy Carter: Israel's 'apartheid' policies worse than South Africa's, haaretz.com, 11/12/06).
Israel unilaterally disengaged. Unless the criticism was written after the unilateral disengagement, I'm suggesting we remove it, as it makes a joke out of the arguments for the analogy, and for those who are ver ignorant on this subject it actually makes them think that Israel has done nothing to leave Gaza.-- Urthogie 18:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the mentions of Gaza in this article seem to deal mainly with occupation of land, not with border control or land, air, and sea control to apartheid. I'm saying we should remove those that talk about the land control, pre-gaza withdrawl.-- Urthogie 18:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I like to think of myself as a neutral person, because I'm rabidly pro and anti Israel at the same time. How is this lead?-- Urthogie 18:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
When the allegation of Israeli apartheid is made, it can mean one of two things. The first thing it can refer to is the claim that Israeli policy in the West Bank is analogous to apartheid. It can also refer to a seperate claim--which by default accepts the first one as well-- that Israel is a South Africa- style apartheid state.
The issues involved the first allegation are the conditions and restrictions placed on Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank, while the issues involved in the second allegation are supposed similarities between Israel and South Africa. A book-length study on the subject of these allegations said that the second claim is made most often by "Palestinians, many Third World academics, and several Jewish post-Zionists who idealistically predict an ultimate South African solution of a common or binational state." The first claim, however, is associated with a seperate group, "which sees both similarities and differences, and which looks to South African history for guidance in bringing resolution to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians."
The majority of intellectuals and journalists, however, disagree with the allegation being used in any way "and deplore what [they] deem its propagandistic goals."
Are allegations of apartheid not a broad historical comparison or analogy between Israel and apartheid South Africa?-- Urthogie 20:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, if you were being reasonable, you would admit that you came here a couple weeks ago to insert this argument in the lead, [3] failed, and so then decided to replace it in template form.
Either way, if you get around to responding to G-Dett's post, please also try to explain again why you think we should have this particular "lower level template" here rather than any "higher level template." As I pointed out above, your example of Anarchism actually cuts directly against your point, since all of the Anarchism in Austria, Anarchism in China, etc. articles actually have a plain Template:Anarchism sidebar, not a narrow one on Template:Regional Anarchism. It's gotten a little silly here to ask you to actually argue your point consistently, but since three editors are disagreeing with you, perhaps it's worth asking again. Mackan79 21:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick, I'd be fine deleting the template, but simply tend to take a more minimalist approach. The problem with this template happens only to be specifically in regard to this article, where it was included as a sort of WP:POVFORK, and serves to promote a particular argument. Does it make sense to require the deletion of the whole template because it presents a POV problem in one article? I'm afraid the result would be an unnecessary deadlock. Mackan79 04:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Unindent. Lead had gotten quite ugly, with a fourth paragraph repeating an element of the third, a misplaced plural, etc. So I tightened it, not removing any substantive element, I think. Andyvphil 15:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can you guys check to make sure that everything listed under "Israel alleged apartheid state" doesn't more accurately fit under "Israel alleged apartheid in territories." We don't want to libel anybody, so check the sources :)-- Urthogie 18:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Can I suggest use of Template:Noncompliant. Problems with this article appear to be not just WP:NPOV, but that this article reads in parts like an essay and contains non-encyclopedic content. Some people may feel WP:NOR applies to, but this seems to have plenty of references.-- ZayZayEM 05:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has been tagged as POV for a year.
NPOV is the most basic of wikipedia policies.
I think we should set a date until which this article would become NPOV. If we fail by that date we should remove the article. Zeq 07:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I reverted back to a somewhat earlier version (not the version I wrote, but only with a small modification by me). It is a violation of WP:NPOV to give undue weight in the lead to those positions which accept the allegations. In fact, only in the final paragraph do we actually figure out what most commentators think about the allegation. Please don't remove this important fact, as we are otherwise giving undue weight to supporters (who are a minority in the press), and taking away the deserved weight of detractors (a majority in the press). If I were really being stubborn I'd insist we give more weight to the majority view on whether these allegations are valid, because the majority view is by definition deserving of more weight. However, I have been willing to compromise and give slightly less weight to the mainstream opinion which deserves immensely more. I've also compromised by not restoring my own lead, because I listened to consensus, despite the fact that I think it's immensely better than this lead.-- Urthogie 15:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Some editor just removed this verified statement that most commentators reject the allegations as propaganda with the edit summary "RV POV". How is this qualification a point of view? Does anyone disatgree with it? It's a verified statement of fact.-- Urthogie 15:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we slow down a little with these incessant modifications of the lead? The usual protocol is to copy whatever version of the lead has enjoyed some stability (meaning weeks, usually) and paste it in on the talk page, list your objections to it and propose a substitute in draft form. Then others either echo your objections or dismiss them. If the latter, you're out of luck. If the former, then they make suggestions and modifications to your draft rewrite. By and by the draft rewrite tightens and refines and gets backing; and when it reaches some critical mass of consensus and stability it's moved, with a certain amount of fanfare, into the article itself.
The lead isn't the place to build sandcastles to be knocked down by the next caprice of the tides.
I'm not going to edit-war with you, Urthogie, but it may interest you to know that the last paragraph of the lead as you've got it now is virtually a word-for-word repetition of the second-to-last. Then again, that's probably all changed in the three minutes I've taken to write this.-- G-Dett 16:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Agree, this edit comment warring is a waste of time.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ ♥ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 16:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's how the last two sentences read when I posted my exasperated comment:
They also assert that Israel's limitations on Palestinians in the West Bank are justified by the ongoing hostility to Israel of numerous Palestinian groups.
They who reject the analogy also assert that Israel's limitations and protective measures against Palestinians in the West Bank are made necessary by security concerns, due to ongoing hostility to Israel from numerous Palestinian groups.
The protocol for lead revision that I outlined at the top of this section ensures that the lead, whatever other faults it may suffer from at any given moment, will not stammer and chatter its way through these faults.-- G-Dett 16:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Every single accusation of apartheid in Gaza before unilateral disengagement should be placed in a seperate section. While Israel controls the air space, and the borders, I'm yet to see any sources that say that this amounts to apartheid in the settlements. What reasons are there to oppose this rather logical division, aside to confuse people who haven't heard of the disengagement, or make this article not be taken seriously by those who have?-- Urthogie 17:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Jews took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state" -- south African prime minister. I think it's likely true because South Africa was attempting to defend itself from criticism by associating with a morally just cause, but I'd still like to see a primary or secondary source even though my intuition is that it's true. The only source I could find was the guardian one, which is a tertiary source. Anyone know of a document or video from that era for this quote?-- Urthogie 17:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Shulamit Aloni, former education minister, Israel Prize winner, and a former leader of Meretz, [4] and Tommy Lapid, leader of the liberal Shinui and former Justice minister, used the term "apartheid" when describing a bill proposed by the government of Ariel Sharon to bar Arabs from buying homes in "Jewish townships" within Israel proper.[19][20][21]
Aloni's article clearly does not use the "Israeli apartheid" allegation in reference to Israel itself, but rather to its actions in the territories:
Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what's right in front of our eyes. It's simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population.
He therefore belongs in that section on settlements, not this one.
Lapid never even says there's apartheid. He variously says it "smell of apartheid" and that it's "getting close to apartheid". Note, he's saying this individual law is apartheid, not all of Israel, as well. Perhaps we need sections for specific laws and policies within Israel, so that we don't make it look like anyone who calls a given policy apartheid is saying the whole state of Israel is "apartheid state."-- Urthogie 17:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that most of the quotes mention the West Bank and Gaza in the same sentence, so it's literally impossible to seperate the two from each other. I'm going to try to make clear in the lead of that section that Israel no longer occupies Gaza land. -- Urthogie 20:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
"The majority is incensed by the very analogy and deplores what it deems its propagandistic goals."
I've reverted Kritt. -- Urthogie 22:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the lead: I believe Urthogie's format used here better and more consise, and I made the same improvement: Allegations of Islamic apartheid. Why the diffence?
Tutu talks specifically about Jerusalem, not the West Bank and Gaza. Please read his comments, he talks about "Holy Land" (Tutu's own words), not the "occupied West Bank".
The lead should not contain the quotes of one person as a set in stone summary. The lead you restored is POV, and it removed the issue regarding physical separation.
Please do not Edit War. Kritt 22:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think you are splitting hairs. Tutu knows everything there is to know about apartheid, he's leveled the charge against Israel, and his direct quote refers to Palestinians that no longer can access their homes in Jerusalem inside of Israel itself. It's clear as day what Tutu is saying. Please stop trying to obfuscate the issue. Kritt 23:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The word apartheid doesn't have to appear in every sentence. Please cool it. Urthogie, kindly do not try to censor Desmond Tutu. His comments are clear.
Kritt 07:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders. [5]
Sorry Kritt, but he think justice means leaving the territories, not destroying the Jewish state of Israel. So your reading of him is not only original research, but it's also wrong.-- Urthogie 12:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Who says other countries practices more closely resemble South Africa's than do Israel's? Let's see some sources for that before it makes into a Wikipedia lead paragraph. Israel is accused of apartheid far more than is any other country in the world. South African anti-apartheid individuals have not accused Islamic countries, Cuba, Brazil, or Australia anywhere near the level they have Israel. The lead is POV and unsupportable. Kritt 22:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the two sources you have are very weak for the claims you make in the Lead. They belong elsewhere. I read those sources and they do not agree with the sentence you support: "whose practices more closely resemble South African apartheid". The sources you have provided do not make that claim. Even so, it's a very small contingent that you are using, it's very much like cherry-picking, to support a point-of-view. Islamic nations may commit human rights abuses, but nobody calls it "apartheid" as they do democratic Israel. It truly doesn't belong in the lead and it's POV and unsupportable. Please reconsider it. Thanks. Kritt 22:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, the sentence's own sources and footnotes (as weak as they are) do not back up the sentence! It's misleading and doesn't belong anywhere near the Lead. It's POV and speculative. Kritt 23:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries deny equal rights to women, Christians, Jews, Hindus and others. Where are the protests against Saudi apartheid?
That one rhetoical question is all there is from a newspaper editorial? That doesn't warrant a sentence in the lead. It does not say that it "more closely resembles S. African apartheid", and there are literally zero South Africans that have made that claim. Come on now, please stop disrupting the article with unsourced POV claims. Kritt 06:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
She is not saying Israel is an apartheid state, she says that only the territories are. From the source provided [6]:
Israel is an occupying power that for 40 years has been oppressing an indigenous people, which is entitled to a sovereign and independent existence while living in peace with us.
1967, people. Not 1948.-- Urthogie 13:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Examples should go at the top of the allegations sections. I've moved (or removed, in the case of repeats) examples that are in the individual issues susbections. The point of these subsections is to explain the reasons for various POVs, rather than to just quote more allegations.-- Urthogie 14:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This is the actual quote from the source:
Zbigniew Brzezinski: President Carter, in my judgement, is correct in fearing that the absence of a fair and mutually acceptable resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is likely to produce a situation which de facto will resemble apartheid: ie, two communities living side by side but repressively separated, with one enjoying prosperity and seizing the lands of the other, and the other living in poverty and deprivation.
This is represented in the article as an allegation of apartheid, which it isn't. This article isn't called Allegations of likely future Israeli apartheid. Apparently someone went googling for everything with Israel and apartheid in its text :)-- Urthogie 15:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
That includes "We have apartheid," "We don't have apartheid," "We ended apartheid," "We're on the cusp of apartheid," etc.
Well, he's simply not an example of the allegation. That's a fact. I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the article. I'm saying he shouldn't be in the examples section at the beginning of that section-- because he's not an example of someone who's made the allegation.-- Urthogie 23:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, stop making original research arguments combining your apparent knowledge of linguistics ("no, no, he really means this") and the Brzezinsky quote. Please, learn to choose your battles, this is a relatively minor loss considering how many other examples you could find in the time you spent arguing. Thanks, Urthogie 19:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Fine, if you guys insist I suppose I can be pragamatic-- I don't want it outside the context of Carter's views though. Remember, it's merely a response to a question about Carter's views. And I'm not changing my mind on this. Since I'm making a reasonable comrpomise to be fair rather than correct, I'll revert either of you on a daily basis if you try to remove this compromise.-- Urthogie 22:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Brzezinski has apparently been invoking Israeli apartheid for a decade now. In 1997, sitting alongside Madelaine Albright on PBS's Newshour, Brzezinski said of then-Prime Minister Netanyahu:
His concept of "peace" is really very different from the concept of peace that labor embraced and which I suspect we support. His concept of peace is essentially a very close equivalent of what the white supremacist apartheid government in South Africa was proposing at one point for the Africans--a series of isolated--lands--broken up, not contiguous territory, essentially living in backward villages, surrounded by white islands of prosperity. This is the Likud image of solution for the Palestinian problem, and, therefore, when he's asked to stop building settlements, to stop engaging in actions which would make peace possible, instead of subverting them, he's being asked to change his policy, and he has no incentive to do that unless he feels that America will disown him, or unless the Israeli public disowns him.
In May of 2002 the Toronto Star reported that:
FOR YEARS, critics have compared Israeli policies in the occupied territories to the old South African apartheid system. Now more mainstream figures — such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Canadian-born former U.S. National Security Adviser, and South African anti-apartheid stalwarts Bishop Desmond Tutu and author Breyten Breytenbach — are drawing the parallel. Members of the 80,000-strong Jewish community in South Africa have joined the debate as well.
I can't find relevant quotes from him in 2002, but I doubt the Star was referring to his five-year-old statement on Newshour. Could be, though.
In October of the following year, in a speech at the New American Strategies for Security and Peace conference in Washington, D.C., Brzezinski said:
Soon the reality of the settlements which are colonial fortifications on the hill with swimming pools next to favelas below where there's no drinking water and where the population is 50% unemployed, there will be no opportunity for a two-state solution with a wall that cuts up the West Bank even more and creates more human suffering.
Indeed as some Israelis have lately pointed out, and I emphasize some Israelis have lately pointed out, increasingly the only prospect if this continues is Israel becoming increasingly like apartheid South Africa -- the minority dominating the majority, locked in a conflict from which there is no extraction. If we want to prevent this the United States above all else must identify itself with peace and help those who are the majority in Israel, who want peace and are prepared to accept peace.
In fact, it seems that Brzezinski has been pushing the meme for longer than Carter. I note moreover that he always uses what I'm calling the diplomatic future tense. The bad moon always rising and waxing, never quite full: "Increasingly the only prospect if this continues is Israel becoming increasingly like apartheid South Africa," he says in 2003. And then in 2006: "the absence of a fair and mutually acceptable resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is likely to produce a situation which de facto will resemble apartheid." Then again when Z-Big orders a hot dog, he probably says "I would like a hot dog," like I do, just to be nice, not because his hunger is hypothetical.-- G-Dett 01:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a final appeal for Urthogie to refrain from major edits without consensus. I've thus far avoided edit-warring with him, and haven't touched the page for days. At this point, however, the article is losing any semblance of being encyclopedic and is instead becoming Urthogie's highly idiosyncratic and wildly unreliable blog. Here's one of his latest additions:
Indeed, some Palestinians have gone so far as to encourage settlement of their land so as to make Israel look like an apartheid state.
This piece of lunacy is unsourced, naturally.
Urthogie, if you stop your frenzied editing now, we can group what you've done into various categories and go through it systematically. If you don't, I'm going to begin reverting, starting with what is patent nonsense, and moving through to what has been merely compromised by haste and lack of editorial judgment.-- G-Dett 00:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's look at G-Dett's anecodtal evidence of how I am editing in an irresponsible fashion, turning this into my "blog." She mentions this sentence,
Indeed, some Palestinians have gone so far as to encourage settlement of their land so as to make Israel look like an apartheid state.
Instead of trying to gain some insight into why I wrote this, she ignores completely the possibility that this sentence could be sourced with information already in the article. The source, of course is:
* Michael Tarazi, a Palestinian proponent of the binational solution has argued that it is in Palestine's interest to "make this an argument about apartheid", to the extent of advocating Israeli settlement, "The longer they stay out there, the more Israel will appear to the world to be essentially an apartheid state". [20
There are several other Palestinian intellectuals who take this approach as well-- their argument is that ties between Israel and the territories should be strengthened so as to give an appearence of oppression and apartheid over indiscriminate economic and political boundaries.
So, while you can argue with how I summarized that source, you can't claim that sentence is "off the wall" given that it's completely sourcable. I just hadn't yet added the source(s). A more valid, and rational criticism of it would have been that it misleadingly uses weasel words-- something I hope we can discuss. I've removed it though, because--like before-- I've decided to be pragmatic rather than correct. This anecdotal sentence, meant to show my edits in a bad light does far from that-- it reveals how there is a knee jerk response to me on this page, and how well I handle critique. -- Urthogie 02:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, first of all don't feel embattled. This has always been a contentious page. Secondly, the reaction to you here has not been "knee-jerk." In fact there's been an unusual degree of forebearance, with veteran editors of this page standing back while you rapidly dismantle work achieved through months of difficult editorial negotiations, and – without consensus or even discussion – replace it with casual, bloggily tendentious prose riddled with errors both typographical and factual. I think you timed your dramatic debut on this page very well, insofar as many here (including me) have been worn down by months of bitter edit-warring. We've been more stunned than roused to action by your five-day barrage of dubious edits.
What follows is a preliminary list of what I intend to clean up in your wake, along with detailed explanations.
1.The lead that existed before you debuted here will be restored. What you've written in its place is wordy and vague ("Those who use the analogy point to the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank") as well as inaccurate ("Most journalists and academic commentators reject the analogy as propaganda"). This last misrepresents Adam and Moodley's work in both letter and spirit. For background on this, see the detailed talk-page discussion regarding "the uses and misuses of Adam and Moodley"; it's archived here. As I wrote in that earlier discussion, Adam and Moodley stress that
"the main focus of this study" is to "draw strategic lessons from the negotiated settlement in South Africa for the unresolved conflict in the Middle East," and they make very clear that this is the analogy that provokes the three types of commentary they list. That's the general analogy that is the centerpiece of their book. There is a more specific analogy which is the centerpiece of our article, between Israeli policies toward Palestinians and Afrikaner policies toward black South Africans during apartheid. They deal with that too, but that's not what the tripartite classification refers to.
In short, Adam and Moodley are describing a taboo that casts its shadow over any attempt, like theirs, to look to South Africa for historical guidance in resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Their subject is the average attitude towards a broad analogy that includes but is not limited to the moral equation our article covers; and they make clear that they regard this average attitude as representative of an unfortunate taboo, rather than a consensus of expertise or even considered judgment. Your selective and distortive use of them in the lead has the effect of suggesting the exact opposite. (It also conflates their broad subject with our narrow one.) There is no justification for this kind of distortion, and there's no need for it either, as the material in question is presented accurately, and with appropriate nuance and detail, in the very next section of the article, "Overview."
2. I'm going to remove the "allegations of apartheid" banner, per our previous discussion, which you walked away from following a series of serves you couldn't return.
3. You added this sentence last night: "Tutu has also leveled allegations of apartheid against China's actions in Tibet[50][51], the United Kingdom's treatment of suspected terrorists[52], and the United States's treatment of suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay.[53]" This is at best an inadvertently grotesque distortion, at worst a serious misrepresentation of source material. In each of these occasions, Tutu weighs in on some issue of 'might vs. right,' and in doing so offers vague parallels, drawn from his own experience, about the perils of power unchecked ("I never imagined I would live to see the day when the United States and its satellites would use precisely the same arguments that the apartheid government used for detention without trial"), the inevitable triumph of popular resistance ("We used to say to the apartheid government: you may have the guns, you may have all this power, but you have already lost. Come: join the winning side. His Holiness and the Tibetan people are on the winning side"), etc. etc. On none of these occasions does he make an "allegation of apartheid." To say this would be like going through every Elie Weisel speech touching on contemporary political or moral issues and arguing that he's making "Holocaust allegations." I'd be inclined to read your misinterpretation as mere sloppiness, but the way you've given a double-listing, each listing cited separately to the same source ("the United Kingdom's treatment of suspected terrorists[52], and the United States's treatment of suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay.[53]") for Tutu's single quoted statement about Guantanamo Bay, suggests to me that you were knowingly writing spin. Do refrain from this.
4.Lastly (for now) there is the ill-conceived section on "The Debate on [sic] the one-state solution," which opens with a false assertion and a cheerful volley of typos:
As Moodly [sic] and X [???]observed, the allegation of apartheid is often made by those who support a one state solution.
They don't observe this, and it'd be beside the point if they did. What Adam and Moodley wrote was this:
"'Israel is Apartheid' advocates include most Palestinians, many Third World academics, and several Jewish post-Zionists who idealistically predict an ultimate South African solution of a common or binational state."
Read that carefully. It's these "several Jewish post-Zionists" specifically, not the "'Israel is Apartheid' advocates" generally (much less the Palestinian masses), who are doing this idealistic predicting of a binational state. Binationalism, at any rate, is a separate issue. What I said about its place in the lead ( [7]applies to its place in the article.-- G-Dett 18:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
How did allegations of Israeli Apartheid, get twisted into an article that first highlights Apartheid within Israel Proper, as opposed to the general apartheid policies carried out by Israel? The article is not structured correctly. Is Urthogie trying to structure the article so that the allegations get buried deep within the article? Is this good faith? The allegations are what a reader wants to learn about, not about refutations and discussions about whether the apartheid is within Israel, West Bank, or Gaza, etc. All those issues can be covered within the context of the allegations themselves. It's not an article about geography. I think the article is being stuctured as to sneakily hide and bury facts. Kritt 07:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders. [8]
Jimmy Carter states that Israeli Arabs are equal citizens, and says that the apartheid-like system in the West Bank is not based on racism. [9] [10]
You are editing in a POV fashion, and there is no consensus for what you are doing, mostly complaints. Please stop edit warring. Placement of Idi Amin before Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter is highly POV and it lacks good faith. Tutu and Carter comment on Israeli apartheid comprehensively, and to attempt to slot them deep into the article under "West Bank" is not practising good faith. Kritt 20:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I support putting that section first. I'll do it myself. What I opposed was putting content in the wrong section.-- Urthogie 13:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Your metaphors are amazingly misleading. the demographics of mormons are notable. the demographics of republicans are notable. the demographics of the pro-life cause are notable, too. The article on shakers would make clear that there are barely any shakers left.-- Urthogie 16:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's where we disagree, I suppose. To me, it's immensely important that such context be given as soon as is reasonably possible (perhaps, even, right after defining the allegations). I would demand the same exact thing on an islamofacism article. "Most commentators reject the connection between fascism and islam as inflammatory." Yep. (Adam, and Moodley, by the way, argue that the "differences outweigh the similarities" in their lead paragraph)
And G-Dett, before you chime in, the subject of that chapter is the comparison between apartheid South Africa and Israel. On that subject, they categorize the commentators into three groups. The majority who say "no, that's propaganda", those who say israel is an "apartheid state", and those who see similarities and differences. Thanks for being logical and not assuming bad faith, -- Urthogie 17:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
N.B." Poisoning the well" is a logical fallacy, not an act of malevolent scheming or criminal nastiness.-- G-Dett 17:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett's version is a blatant misreading of Adam and Moodley. Here is proof. The lead of this chapter reads:
Although Israel and apartheid South Africa are often equated as "colonial settler socities," we argue that the differences outweight the similarities. This analysis questions these popular analogies.
Then there are several paragraphs concerning how we could learn to reconcile differences in light of the ideas this model offers. Then, we are back to discussing the main subject (see above blockquote):
Academic and jouranlistic commentators on the topic can be roughly divided into three groups:
The topic, of course is the "analysis" of "these popular analogies."
Then, of course, it obviously follows that the three groups are based on their views towards the analogy. They are divided into three groups: those who think the analogy is propaganda, those who think "Israel is apartheid", and those who see merits to both positions. However, G-Dett's revision to the lead completely mixes up the paragaphs on reconciliation with views on the analogy. Thank you, -- Urthogie 17:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
How about we compromise as follows: we move the "most" clause to the "Israel as an apartheid state section." I'm willing to take it out of the lead if everyone opposes it, but we'd have to move it somewhere like that section.-- Urthogie 19:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect, I think this article is in a lot worse shape that it was back in mid-March. I for one would support a wholesale reversion back to what had been a stable, well written article, somewhere around this edit or so. -- Kendrick7 talk 19:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the current run-on sentence in the lead is bordering on nonsensical. Scroll up to see my suggested compromise. Also, I think "apartheid state" allegation section should stay because some people think Israel is a colonial apartheid state ever since 1948. So they are purposefully referring to all of Israel, not just being vague-- Urthogie 02:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's not lose sight of what this article is: Allegations of Israeli Apartheid. It should explain them, who makes them, and discuss criticism of them -- using reliable sources. What I see happening is a restructuring of the article to support turing everything upside down, and focusing on "criticism" and denial. This really isn't fair to the reader who comes here to get facts. Urthogie, if you want to represent a POV, then work on the criticism sections, but please do not deny or censor the many, many allegations themselves because they are sourced. Kritt 22:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Another problem with the "majority of journalists and academic commentators reject any analogy" quote in the lead is that the book it's cited to was published before Carter's. Carter's book has blown the topic wide open and rather transformed the discussion. The A & M statement may very well still hold but I think we'd need a current source for it.-- G-Dett 13:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of Israeli apartheid draw a controversial analogy from the policies of apartheid era South Africa to those of Israel. Those who use the analogy point to Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, policies of physical separation between the two groups, and/or allege second-class treatment of Arabs citizens in Israel proper.
While some argue that the situations resemble apartheid currently, others argue that such conditions are at risk of arising in the future. The analogy has also been invoked by Israeli political leaders and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
Many journalists and academic commentators have rejected any analogy from South African apartheid to Israel's policies and conditions. [1] Those who reject the analogy argue that Arab citizens of Israel enjoy democratic rights, [2] and that other countries also resemble South African apartheid are not accused of it. [3] [4] These critics also maintain that Israel's limitations and protective measures against Palestinians in the West Bank are based on security needs, [5].
Mackan, I like your idea of making clear at the outset that the discussion is more nuanced and involved than “pro/con” would suggest. But I don’t know about the second paragraph of what you've proposed:
While some argue that the situations resemble apartheid currently, others argue that such conditions are at risk of arising in the future. The analogy has also been invoked by Israeli political leaders and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
Who argues that there's a risk of such conditions arising in the future? Brzezinski makes very clear that he’s talking about present conditions becoming permanent, not new conditions arising. I’m not looking for a reprise here of my debate with Andyvphill, so let’s just bracket Brzezinski for a moment. Who else besides him could be thought to be talking about future Apartheid-like conditions arising?
How about this for the “nuance” paragraph:
While some who invoke the comparison allege Israel's culpability as a "colonial state," others argue that understandable security measures, when combined with the expansion and consolidation of Israel's settlement program, have produced a status quo that if left permanent will constitute a de facto form of apartheid. Broader analogies between apartheid South African and the Israeli-Palestinian impasse have also been invoked by Israeli political leaders, and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
I know, Urthogie, there's some cruft there. :) -- G-Dett 17:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I object totally to inclusion of that sentence. That one single quote does not belong in the Lead. As I recall, the word colonialism, having more sources was taken out of the lead. Let's be fair here. Also, somebody needs to find a copy of the Adam and Moodley book and NPOV all of their quotes. As it stands, Adam and Moodley have been cherry-picked to support a pro-Israel POV. It's not honest, and it doesn't fully represent what they say. Kritt 22:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of Israeli apartheid draw a controversial analogy from the policies of apartheid era South Africa to those of Israel. Those who use the analogy point to Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, policies of physical separation between the two groups, and/or allege second-class treatment of Arabs citizens in Israel proper.
While some who invoke the comparison allege Israel's culpability as a "colonial state," others argue that understandable security measures, when combined with the expansion and consolidation of Israel's settlement program, have produced a status quo that if left permanent will constitute a de facto form of apartheid. Broader analogies between South Africa and the Israeli-Palestinian impasse have also been invoked by Israeli political leaders, and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
Many journalists and academic commentators have strongly rejected any analogy from Israel to South Africa's apartheid era. [6] Those who reject the analogy argue that Arab citizens of Israel enjoy democratic rights, [7] and that other countries also resemble South African apartheid are not accused of it. [8] [4] These critics also maintain that Israel's limitations and protective measures in the West Bank are based on security needs. [5]
The first cite in this article (to a study, apparently) seems to be malformed. It says "op cit" in the footnote, but "op cit" refers to earlier citations. There is no earlier citation, so the study seems impossible to look up at the moment. .V. Talk| Email 23:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Template:Allegations of apartheid has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.-- Zleitzen (talk) 16:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Benny Morris and the following blockquote the largest in the article? This article is about Allegations of Israeli apartheid, and the reader wants to learn about them, who makes them, and what the allegations actually are. I find the emphasis on Criticism to be POV. Let's not deny or hide the allegations of Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter. Discuss criticism, but let's not suppress allegations or bury them for POV purposes. Here is the largest quoted source in the article. WP is not supposed to be a soapbox? Let's be fair. The Allegations themselves should not be suppressed or denied.
According to historian Benny Morris, one of the most widely quoted scholars on the Arab-Israeli conflict,
Israel is not an apartheid state — rather the opposite, it is easily the most democratic and politically egalitarian state in the Middle East, in which Arabs Israelis enjoy far more freedom, better social services, etc. than in all the Arab states surrounding it. Indeed, Arab representatives in the Knesset, who continuously call for dismantling the Jewish state, support the Hezbollah, etc., enjoy more freedom than many Western democracies give their internal Oppositions. (The U.S. would prosecute and jail Congressmen calling for the overthrow of the U.S. Govt. or the demise of the U.S.) The best comparison would be the treatment of Japanese Americans by the US Govt ... and the British Govt. [incarceration] of German emigres in Britain WWII ... Israel's Arabs by and large identify with Israel's enemies, the Palestinians. But Israel hasn't jailed or curtailed their freedoms en masse (since 1966 [when Israel lifted its state of martial law]).
[Morris later added: "Israel ... has not jailed tens of thousands of Arabs indiscriminately out fear that they might support the Arab states warring with Israel; it did not do so in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 or 1982 — despite the Israeli Arabs' support for the enemy Arab states."]
As to the occupied territories, Israeli policy is fueled by security considerations (whether one agrees with them or not, or with all the specific measures adopted at any given time) rather than racism (though, to be sure, there are Israelis who are motivated by racism in their attitude and actions towards Arabs) — and indeed the Arab population suffers as a result. But Gaza's and the West Bank's population (Arabs) are not Israeli citizens and cannot expect to benefit from the same rights as Israeli citizens so long as the occupation or semi-occupation (more accurately) continues, which itself is a function of the continued state of war between the Hamas-led Palestinians (and their Syrian and other Arab allies) and Israel. [9]
Kritt 19:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Humus Spapiens: Benny Morris representing criticism, should not be the most quoted person in the article, that is just dishonest. Kritt 09:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
He should be the most prominent quote in the article. He's the most scholarly. G-Dett, by the way, is suggesting we add original research by adding notes on his scholarship. That is for his article, not this one. A link is given on his name. This whole talk page section is unneeded. Thanks, -- Urthogie 15:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Desmond Tutu is a better authority on Apartheid than is Benny Morris. The POV to bury Desmond Tutu is dishonest. If you want Morris, then kindly stop burying Tutu. Let's try to be fair here. Kritt 20:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Humus Sapiens, you wrote: "Carter and Tutu are deranged politicians". Can you be NPOV? Kritt 20:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It's redundant to have a separate examples section when we already have all these examples specifically integrated for clarity.-- Urthogie 16:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
There is not one person editing the article that has read, or has a copy of A & M's book. It's not mainstream at all. The A & M information has been "cherry-picked" to represent pro-Israeli POV. People should endeavour to get a copy of that book first. They are NOT the only or ultimate source. I wish people would be honest. Kritt 06:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to NPOV the amount of blockquotes and/or even them out. A reader who comes here to learn, finds less text about the allegations themselves. Please do not bury Apartheid expert Desmond Tutu's allegations. Kritt 20:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
A & M actually give an overview of the analogy, while noone else does, aside from short articles in newspapers. This is why we give them weight in the article. Also, integration actually has consensus support. You keep editing against consensus by reworking the article structure, andy. Everyone here but you and Kritt support having the sections in the form they are right now.--
Urthogie 03:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It's really getting tiresome that some editors appear totally unwilling to collaborate here. Please be fair and honest. This article is about allegations, not playing games with the article structure to deny or hide them. The level of blockquotes for Criticism needs more brevity, and I will work on that. Kritt 07:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
NPOV is not measured by number of words? Then why do pro-Israeli editors revert, deny, and diminish the actual allegations themselves, and support only huge blockquotes of "criticism"? Kritt 05:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
You keep reverting the article structure to a version that has no consensus. We have an overview section for the purpose of summarizing the subject. Going right into examples is the opposite of explanatory, and that's why we don't do it right away. We do it soon after though.
Also, to Kritt, please stop puttin things in the wrong section. Tutu and Carter don't allege that all of Israel is an apartheid state. We distinguish for a reason-- to be clear on this issue. We've already put the section that Tutu and Carter are in at the very top, per your request. The overview (a summary section) is the only thing which comes before it.-- Urthogie 03:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu are not original research. Please do not continue to bury them and disrupt the article and the allegations. The allegations themselves are the topic. Work on Criticism if that is your POV. Thanks. Kritt 06:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
There should be two articles - Allegations of Israeli Apartheid and Status of Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank, with a redirect from Israeli Apartheid itself to the latter of the two. This latter article could use almost all of the material here on actual status issues, but would need a ton of balance. The allegations should refer to this latter article for all but the most general and noncommital factual claims (though all the he-said-she-said which uses the word apartheid stays.) This article should be about what its title says, and not an excuse for a POV fork of factual data. (note: I'm not claiming that any data here is false - just that any article with this title will inevitably sideline any equally-true pro-Israel facts). -- Homunq ( talk • contribs)
There could be two articles, without diminishing or hiding the factual information contained herein. Kritt 06:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Do Adam and Moodley's research really investigate the distribution of journalists' and commentators' opinions on the allegations? To me it seems (from the chapter used as a source here) that they only assume this. Is this a part of their scientific study? How did they do it? It would be unprecise to claim that this is something the study "found" unless this distribution is the object of their study. Any opinions?
An academic investigation in 2005 found that the majority of journalists and academic commentators reject, as propaganda, any analogy from South African apartheid and the political process of reconciliation that ended it to the Israel-Palestine impasse and the prospects for resolving it. [1][2] and that other countries also resemble South African apartheid are not accused of it.
pertn 10:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam & Moodley represent a disproportionate part of the article, and nobody has heard of them. Pro-Israeli POV editors have cherry-picked from (A&M), and continually try to diminish the allegations of Apartheid from experts like Desmond Tutu. That conduct is really dishonest, in my opinion. Adam & Moodley do NOT deny allegations of Israeli Apartheid, however this article leads one to believe they do. Neither Adam or Moodley is an expert on Apartheid as is Desmond Tutu or the many other anti-apartheid activists that are referenced in this article, but are mostly obscured by pro-Israel editors. Thanks. Kritt 06:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I like that Urthogie has emphasized the distinction between the charge of apartheid in the territories vs. within Israel. I don't, however, understand the point of this third section with its cryptic title "Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state." What view is supposedly shared by the figures herded together into this section? "Apartheid state" is a phrase. Some people use it to mean that there are "apartheid policies inside of Israel proper"; others use it to mean that Israel practices something like "apartheid in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip." Probably more use the phrase to mean the former than the latter. But who cares? There are separate sections for both of these views, and we don't need a third. Let's dissolve the section "Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state," and slot the figures within it (who seem to have grouped together for no other reason than a similar choice of words) into their proper categories.
I also think we should structure our presentation to reflect the fact that the preponderance of "allegations of Israeli apartheid" refer to the territories, not Israel proper.-- G-Dett 15:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The structure. Adding examples before overview, as if we don't already have examples.-- Urthogie 18:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie has reworked the "structure" of the article to push pro-Israeli POV. Andy is correct to worry about Adam & Moodley's positioning in the article. Plus, nobody currently editing the article has read, or has a copy of Adam & Moodley, and the quotes are cherry-picked". They are relatively meaningless in this issue worldwide. South African anti-apartheid activists are being hidden and obscured. Kritt 05:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19993
It's only when one speaks of the lesser "Palestine"—meaning, as Jimmy Carter says he does, the territories that would participate in the full-fledged two-state solution that's supposed to be the aim of Western diplomacy—that "apartheid" begins to shape up as a charge more troubling than an epithet, as a loose analogy that carries some weight.
also..
Carter defends the use of "apartheid" in his title like a politician defending a particularly tough attack ad. He says he doesn't regret it, that it was a deliberate provocation that has had its intended effect; in other words, that it works as an attention grabber. In his hands, it's basically a slogan, not reasoned argument, and the best that can be said for it, as we've seen, is that significant similarities can be found in the occupation of the territories. It's understandable if Israelis who feel sickened by a sense that they're personally implicated in the brutality of the occupation resort to the word in order to shame their countrymen. Some outsiders might contemplate the phenomenon of suicide bombing and ask how they would deal with the bombers before resorting to the label "apartheid." Others might insist on their right to be outraged about both the bombings and the oppressive measures imposed in the name of counterterrorism.
Meron Benvenisti, who has been intrigued by the comparison to South Africa over the years, now calls for a rhetorical cease-fire. The use of the term "apartheid," he wrote back in 2005, has become in Israel a "mark of leftist radicalism," while its denial stands as proof of "Zionist patriotism." Objective comparison or discussion of the validity of any comparison is "nearly impossible." Anyone who goes into the question, Benvenisti wrote, "will be judged by his conclusions." The choice, he said, is between being called an anti-Semite or a fascist. The occupation should be seen in its own harsh light, he concluded, rather than subjected to a comparison.
Article distinguishes between the various accusations, showing we're doing the right thing here. Plenty to add from it, not only to discussing Carter's example, but also for the overview section.-- Urthogie 03:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"Carter defends the use of "apartheid" in his title like a politician defending a particularly tough attack ad."
Urthogie: Wikipedia is not a blog. That source is POV.
Kritt 05:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.
this article is unwarranted and non-factual, based on the fact that "apartheid" itself is a charged, loaded and scurrilous word. There is absolutely no factual basis for labeling Israel aparthied. it has tried repeatedly to make peace with Palestinians, and has been rebuffed repeatedly. Any existing restrictions are due to ongoing incitement by the Palestinian side, and stem only from lack of success of Israel's efforts to reach a lasting definitive political settlement. -- Sm8900 17:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no deliberate distortion. Experts have spoken. The allegations of Apartheid are numerous, and reliable. Many South African anti-apartheid activists have said so. The attempts to deny or hide these allegations discredit Wikipedia. Kritt 05:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The article's examples should be converted from bullets to paragraphs. This way they can be discussed by other sources in the paragraphs as well.-- Urthogie 17:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Other sources in paragraphs is a terrible idea. This is an attmempt to revise, hide, and deny the actual allegations themselves. Let the text not be hidden. Urthogie: if you want to work on the Criticism sections, please do so, but do not remove allegations due to POV. Kritt 05:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Most Wikipedia articles should consist of prose, and not just a list of links. Prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, while a list of links does not. Prose flows, like one person speaking to another, and is best suited to articles, because their purpose is to explain. Therefore, lists of links, which are most useful for browsing subject areas, should usually have their own entries: see Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) for detail. In an article, significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely listed
Source: Wikipedia:Embedded lists (style guideline). Kritt, is it incredibly POV to follow style guidelines??? Noone is suggesting we remove the allegations, only that we make them conform with style guidelines. Damn.-- Urthogie 18:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Until all of us either agree to these points, or agree to revert anyone who edits in violation of these points, I don't support unlocking the article.-- Urthogie 18:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is a fork of "Human Rights in Israel" article - no beating around the bush. If anything, there could be a different article at "Human Rights of Palestinians in Israel and West Bank". So what is the primary argument that this article should stay seperately than those two? The title is inherently POV and OR - that is the primary reason why so many edit-wars and disputes happen: if the title has problems, than the disputes will never cease no matter how NPOVising is done. Let's just merge it with HR in Israel or rename it to HR of PL in IS and WB.. Baristarim 03:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Mackan, Kendrick, and G-Dett, the three users who have been the most articulate critics of my edits on this page, have all supported, in varying degrees the tripartite division of these allegations. At the very least, there is no consensus against the division. The whole idea of reverting the article back to March was raised, but several users, such as me 61S7, and Mackan opposed that.-- Urthogie 20:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Haven't been to this article for a while, on the plus side I'll say it seems to be better written than it was.
However, there is at least one major problem I see with this article, which is a problem I see with a number of other controversial pages on Wiki. And that is that the article essentially leads off with a long series of denials that the allegations have any validity.
In my opinion, such a format is totally inappropriate and violates NPOV by attempting to "poison the well" in advance of the allegations themselves. Now I don't know if there is a Wiki rule or guideline on this, but I think it's long past time, if it does not exist, that one was written prohibiting such practices. IMO, the criticism section of any article should always come after the section or sections describing the substance of the topic (in this case, the allegations).
Another criticism related to this one is the frequency with which contradictory statements are introduced into text as opposing editors seek to counteract each other's statements. The end result of this tendency is that the overall integrity of articles is destroyed as one contradictory claim succeeds another in line after line. Articles thereby become an incomprehensible mess, which drags down the quality of the project as a whole. Again, I think this practice needs to be strongly discouraged, preferably by a rule or guideline if one does not exist.
The third problem I have with this article in particular is that it's become rather too long and waffling. Surely the allegations, and the criticisms and denials of such, can be presented more succinctly? Gatoclass 03:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that's just my point. What is a statement that "most commentators reject the analogy" doing at the head of the article? It looks very much like an attempt to poison the well before the allegations themselves have been canvassed.
Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, Adam and Moodley themselves do not reject the notion of apartheid applying to Israel. So the statement itself is a misrepresentation of their position. The point they were apparently trying to make is that "most commentators" are either wrong or ill informed. But the way they are quoted, it looks as if they are endorsing the view of this supposed majority. Gatoclass 05:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam and Moodley believe that there are more differences than similarities
That may the case, but then that is a long way from being "incensed by the very analogy and deplor[ing] what it deems its propagandistic goals". But the way the information is presented in the article gives the impression that the latter is the informed view - when A&M apparently reject it.
As for "editing and adding to it", I've already stated my view about that. It's just going to become another battleground over content. Why not just divide the article up into pro- and anti- sections, and leave it at that? Gatoclass 05:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, from a Wikipedia policy standpoint you'd need a source saying that suddenly most commentators accept the allegations of Israeli apartheid now to contradict Adam and Moodley. Obviously, such a source can't be found because such a claim is patently untrue. The reaction to Carter's book-- or more specifically, its title-- is only further proof of how most commentators and society at large view this allegation. Look at the reaction from the Democrats... from Carter's own staff, who resigned. The polls supporting Israel in the United States, have not spiked as a result of Carter's book. It's a book that makes the allegation! It's not the Middle East version of Uncle Tom's Cabin, causing some sort of huge paradigm shift. Nothing fundamental has changed in regard to what "most commentators" say. Carter's book added to the discussion, but it did not change what "most" believe. Aside from the work of Benny Morris (and even that's a maybe), I don't know of any author who has singlehandedly changed conceptions of the Middle East conflict in the public at large, or among "most commentators".
Also, the word study is kind of vague when it comes to the social sciences. "Analysis" would be the equivalent here. But honestly, it's silly semantics. Adam and Moodley overview the allegations. If someone else mainstream does it, please add them to that section. See below for why I think the arguments against the inclusion of A&M have been red herrings.-- Urthogie 02:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam and Moodley are the only academics whose expertise is precisely the comparison between South Africa and Israel, and also the only academics who have written academically on the subject. Of course their views should be extremely heavily weighted. As for objections that the "criticism" comes first, whether or not that is reasonable depends on whether or not you view the concept as valid or as spurious. Jayjg (talk) 02:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority.
Minority views, huh? Helps to read shit doesn't it.-- Urthogie 19:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett and Pertn have argued against the current placement/position of A&M in the article. Let me outline why I think their logic is severely flawed. Here's their logic (See relevant posts at: [13] [14])
Translated another way, it could sound a bit more ridiculous
Adam and Moodley devote a chapter of their book (which covers a much larger topic) to the more specific topic of comparing South African apartheid to the situation in Israel/palestine. In that chapter of their book, they discuss the allegations of apartheid and who makes them. They analyze these allegations, and come to the conclusion that while there are some similarities, the situation is more different than similar, and the causes are much more different as well. Even if you disagree with their specific analysis, the answer here would be to add other mainstream overviews, not to remove this one on the basis of spurious logic. -- Urthogie 01:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
:)-- Urthogie 16:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, if you do end up adding sources, we can adjust the lead to reflect that of course. I think the main issue is just that people tend not to write cool-headed analyses of such emotionally weighted charges.-- Urthogie 16:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam & Moodley have a disproportionate amount in this article. Their work is cherry-picked to support a Zionist POV. Has anyone who edits this article read their book, or even have access to a copy of it?
Kritt 04:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't help but notice that so much of this relates to Carter's book. I was trying to improve the coverage and discussion of his book's use of the word but I was overwhelmed by how many sources discuss it. If we want to give an in-depth discussion of his use of the word in an NPOV fashion, wouldn't it make sense to give him his own section? Anyone who searches for stuff on this subject can't help but notice his use of the word is responsible for most of the term's discussion/coverage. Any support in this regard?-- Urthogie 16:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is called allegations of Israeli apartheid. A major head of state making the allegations is by very definition notable. The definition of a reliable source for this article isn't a political scientist. If that were the case then we'd have to exclude other political figures as well, which we haven't done. All in all, it's ridiculous to remove this guy.-- Urthogie 18:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
My guess is that this misunderstanding of what makes a "reliable" source is based on the misconception that the source must be a "reliable" person.-- Urthogie 18:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you negotiating with yourself? Idi Amin would be good source to reference if one had a Zionist POV and was interested in poisoning the well. Kritt 04:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Here we go again. Andy's edit summary was "removing self-identified third pole." Why remove the only mainstream analysis available?
We should discuss their individual views in "other views", yes, but we should also include their overview here, as it's the only mainstream one available.-- Urthogie 21:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Taking a step back from the A&M issue for just a moment, I think we ought to make a distinction between various types of allegations. Some draw a comparison between certain elements of Israeli policy to certain elements of SA apartheid policy; some feel that the effects of Israeli policy - regardless of their intent - are reminiscent of the effects of SA apartheid; others say that there's a trajectory that might take Israel to a state of de facto apartheid; and yet others go so far as to say that what Israel does is just like or even worse than SA apartheid. Once you've parsed Carter's view, for example, it's pretty clear that he means "apartheid" in a very narrow sense, whereas Idi Amin probably meant it in the broadest possible sense. -- Leifern 21:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmm...It seems like the Criticism section should be for people who issue general criticisms of the allegation, while the intext criticisms should be those that deal with criticisms of specific claims. Does anyone oppose this? I plan on applying this principle.-- Urthogie 21:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Please don't create false contrasts. Adam and Moodley are experts writing scholarly works in their are of expertise, and backing it up with sources. Finkelstein is a polemical author giving his unsourced personal opinion in a left-wing newsletter. Also, A&M are talking about the acceptance of the term itself, Finkelstein is making claims about the "reality". In addition, Finkelstein doesn't actually address A&M's point, and he is giving his personal opinion about an entirely different audience. Jayjg (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion of Finkelstein is irrelevant. He amply fits the definition of a reliable source. And A&M don't back up their assertion with any evidence, any more than Finkelstein does. Gatoclass 18:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
1. As I said, A&M are virtual unknowns whereas Finkelstein is a very weil known high profile academic. That Finkelstein's style is "polemical" has no bearing on the issue whatever. He's a qualified academic and a specialist in the field.
2. No, A&M's comment was published in their own book. And Counterpunch is a long-standing US periodical, not merely an "online newsletter".
3. No, A&M just divided respondents into three groups - those who vehemently deny the analogy, those who affirm it and those who are somewhere in between. Big deal. Finkelstein also divides opinion into three groups - American Jews, the US media and everybody else. Neither party gives any further explanation of how they came to their separate conclusions. A&M's comment therefore has no more substance than Finkelstein's.
4. Oh nonsense. It's not a "false synthesis" at all. It's two disparate opinions attached with some linking prose. There is no conclusion drawn from the two. You might as well argue the entire article is a false synthesis in that case.
These objections have no substance. I'm reverting. Gatoclass 19:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Did you get around to reporting me for violating 3RR yet Urthogie? Perhaps you'd better remember to report yourself too, since you've reverted other editors on this page at least five times in the last 24 hours, and possibly double that. Gatoclass 20:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam & Moodely are not pro-Israel on this subject. They are not well-known, but if we are going to rely on them as Jayjg is suggesting, they at least ought to be referenced more accurately. Who has read their book? Who has a copy? I do know that the footnote to this article, the 20-some-odd pages referenced, are without question not represented here in NPOV fashion. Their work is skewed towards Zionist POV. How may A&M quotes are there currently? Ten? They cannot be all pro-Zionist. Jayjg, do you believe that all A&M quotes in this article should be pro-Zionist? Can you write-for-the-enemy and help improve things here? Thanks. Kritt 04:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why so many sources have disappeared from the article in the past month? We had 111 sources in mid-March and now the article is down to only 88. That's slightly over 20% less. Was there some discussion above to delete all these I might have missed? It's going to be a real pain to restore all this.... -- Kendrick7 talk 04:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I haven't helped keep things straight forward for awhile. Have they deleted and/or diminished Desmond Tutu again? Kritt 04:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem was, a whole section was gutted and then, just now, "deleted according to talk." Though, again, I don't see any "talk" about this. I've restored it in full. -- Kendrick7 talk 23:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think we need to radically reconceive the "overview" section. The overview section should be historical, beginning with the first comparisons between the two situations, and tracing the development of the "Israeli apartheid" concept in debate and discussion of Israel-Palestine. Adam and Moodley are really rather minor figures in this, in that their book deals only glancingly with the topic of this article. Proponents of the concept of "Israeli Apartheid" turn to the example of South Africa because they want to stress Israel's human rights violations and the moral untenability of the status quo, especially within the occupied territories. Though Adam and Moodley touch on this, and frequently invoke such comparisons themselves, they discuss the South African model for a completely different reason – because the South African impasse ended well, and they want to explore the viability of that model for resolving Israel-Palestine. Instead of pretending to track A & M for our article's overview (I say "pretending" advisedly), we should organize our discussion so that it incorporates A & M in context – the context of those invoking South Africa as a model for conflict resolution. Dennis Ross and others have suggested that if the Palestinians could put forth "a Mandela," the conflict could be resolved. A & M by and large reject this argument, stressing that the South African model of a morally unifying leader is a mirage – that there are more intractable structural causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That debate has its place here, I suppose, but it makes no sense to turn the overview over to Adam and Moodley, because they themselves only passingly provide an overview of our topic (and as Andyvphil eloquently pointed out, "their typology of critical reaction isn't really a serious typology at all, but an attempt to claim for themselves credit for being the moderate middle").-- G-Dett 21:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, I agree with your analysis re A&M, their interest in the apartheid analogy is focussed on its utility as a conflict resolution model. They are not interested in determining whether or not Israel's occupation is the moral equivalent of apartheid, indeed they are mostly at pains to withhold judgement in that regard, hinting that such judgements are "subjective". But the moral dimension is obviously central to the concerns of most of those employing the analogy. So A&M in my opinion are not only being overused in this article, but misused.
I'm not sure I agree with you though, in your suggested fix. I don't see what point there is in listing allegations chronologically. It certainly doesn't sound like something you'd want in an overview.
I'm still of the opinion that the article doesn't really need an "overview" - just a section listing the various allegations, followed by a section criticising them. I simply cannot see why this structure should not be acceptable to everyone, since it is fair to both sides. But if the article must have an overview, then it certainly needs to include more than just one academic opinion. That can in no way be construed as balanced. Which is why I think the inclusion of Finkelstein is a much needed counter. Gatoclass 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Jay, Gatoclass raises an important question. Who for you are the screaming teenagers best kept out of the overview? In the past you've questioned the credibility of Desmond Tutu and Haaretz journalist Amira Hass; are there others? I'm hoping to sort of sound you out before drafting something; if potential conflicts could be identified in advance that would be ideal.-- G-Dett 15:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
this article is, at a minimum, four times as long as it would be in any reasonable or serious work.
Yes, but whose doing is that? Whenever I try to delete something of marginal value, like the opinion of Idi Amin or jewwatch, someone comes along and restores it. When I try to delete ponderous waffle from A&M, that is instantly restored as well. When I argue for dropping the overview altogether and just sticking with a pro- and anti- section, I get no support.
This article could easily be half the length it is, but it appears that some editors aren't actually interested in a clear and concise summary of the debate.
So here's a question for you. If it's "four times as long" as it needs to be, how about identifying the 75% that you think is superfluous? Gatoclass 23:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Desmond Tutu knows more than just "sound-bites" about Apartheid. Are you questioning his expertise? Kritt 04:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought it might be instructive to take a closer look at the article - specifically, to count the number of statements in it that affirm the analogy, versus those that reject it and those that are neutral. Here are the results:
1. Intro:
A description of the analogy, followed by three arguments about why the analogy is wrong. That is, one neutral comment and three anti. Bias level: 100% to the anti-. Pro 0, Anti 3.
2. Overview:
Leads with a comment asserting that the anti- side is in the majority. Follows it with a comment that the pro's are mostly "Palestinians and third world academics". Pro 0, Anti 2.
Then followed with some irrelevant waffle about how Israeli politicians "use the analogy self servingly". Neutral.
Then a paragraph listing a handful of credible sources which have employed the analogy, followed by one listing a bunch of crackpots and antisemites who have used it. Pro 1 Anti 1.
Overview summary: Pro 1 Anti 3. Cumulative weight so far, Pro 1 Anti 6, neutral 1.
NOTE That we have had two sections up until this point, and not a word has even been said concerning the actual substance of the allegations!
3. Allegations of apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
1st two paras: Tutu calls for peace - an irrelevancy. Weight neutral.
3rd and 4th paras : Tutu says the territories "remind him" of apartheid. Pro 1.
Next paragraph: On Jimmy Carter's book. Mentions that Carter's use of the analogy "caused great controversy", resignations, condemnation from the Dems, "including Clinton and Pelosi". Let's be generous and call it Pro 1 just because the name "Carter" got a mention in a paragraph that does nothing but attack him. That's Pro 1, Anti 5.
Next para: Weak statement from Brezinski that de facto apartheid is "likely" if conflict is not resolved. Pro 1 (just barely).
Next, Soviet ambassador from '60's called it apartheid. His statement instantly negated by reminder that Soviets were cold war enemies of US and Israel. At best, neutral, at worst Anti 1. Again, let's be generous and call it neutral.
Next, members of Israeli Knesset called it apartheid. But since they happen to be Arabs, their opinion is immediately suspect, if not downright worthless. Bias: neutral to negative. Say neutral.
Next, former AG of Israel says it's apartheid. Finally an unqualified Pro from someone likely to be objective. Pro 1.
Next, John Dugard calls it apartheid. Pro 1.
Next, two sources casting doubt on Dugard's objectivitiy. Anti 2.
Final paragraph, four names who agree with the analogy are quickly tossed at the reader, and only one quoted. Since the dubious or partisan nature of virtually all those making the allegations up to this point has effectively been established by now, this one belated paragraph from credible sources doesn't have much impact, but let's be really generous and say Pro 4.
Summary of weight in this section: Pro 9, Anti 7, neutral 2. Cumulative totals: Pro 10 Anti 13, neutral 3.
NOTE that up to this point almost nothing has been said about why the occupation resembles apartheid.
4. West bank barrier.
1st para: Prefaces statement that barrier is "apartheid wall" with statement about "spate of suicide attacks against Israeli civilians" which necessitated it - thus effectively canceling out the Pro opinion. Pro 1 Anti 1.
2nd: At least five statements explaning why the wall is necessary, how effective it's been, how it's only "defensive". Anti 5.
Summary of this section: Pro 1 Anti 6. Cumulative: Pro 11 Anti 19, neutral 3.
Note: Still only a couple of vague statement in the article about why the analogy is valid up to this point.
5. Pass laws.
Not a very important issue, but this section contains two pro statements and one anti. Cumulative: Pro 13 Anti 20 neutral 3.
6. Marriage. Two pro statements immediately cancelled out by two anti. Bias neutral. Cumulative: Pro 15 Anti 22 neutral 3.
7. Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state.
Opens with a quote from discredited apartheid architect that Israel is an apartheid state. Worthless if not negative endorsement. Followed by two anti statements. Let's be generous and say neutral 1 anti 2.
Idi Amin endorses the analogy. Another negative. Anti 1.
"A Palestinian Jew" endorses it. Another highly dubious source. Neutral.
Finally, another Palestinian says the analogy should be used "in Palestine's interest". Another effectively worthless if not negative endorsement. Let's say neutral.
Anti 3 neutral 3. Cumulative Pro 15 Anti 25 neutral 6.
8. Allegations of Racism.
The allegation of racism is made. Pro 1. Followed by six refutations. Anti 6.
Cumulative: Pro 16, Anti 31, neutral 6.
9. Allegations of apartheid in Israel proper
Weak statement that an Israeli law might be getting "close to apartheid". Negated by statement that law was never passed. Neutral to negative. Say neutral.
10. Land policy. 1 pro statement about how the policy indicates racism, followed by two statements refuting the claim and two more statements on how "beneficial" the policies actually are to Arabs. Let's be generous again and say Pro 1 Anti 2.
Cumulative: Pro 17, Anti 33, neutral 6.
11. Status of Israeli Arabs. A totally anti section, not even a semblance of balance. I count at least 16 anti statements in this section, NO pro.
Cumulative: Pro 17, Anti 49, neutral 6.
12. Demographics. Nothing of value here. Neutral.
13. Identity cards. Prefacing the remarks as "controversial", someone is quoted as saying Israel's identity cards are effectively racist. Same source says they are like apartheid SA's. Be generous and say Pro 2. Followed by several statements about how other ME countries have similar cards. Anti 2.
Cumulative: Pro 19, Anti 51, neutral 6.
14. Criticism. Yes, folks, we've finally arrived at the criticism section!
Far too many anti statements to count, so I'll just count paragraphs. (Note that these are all arguments against use of the analogy, not merely statements for or against). 14 anti. Cumulative Pro 19, Anti 65, neutral 6.
15. Other views (actually, exclusively the views of A&M).
At least 17 anti arguments in this section. Zero Pro statements.
Cumulative Pro 19, Anti 82, neutral 6.
16. The One State Solution.
A&M again. For once, I think I can say this section is essentially pro. I'll call it Pro 2, because of Olmert's statement that the one state argument would be "powerful" and "mean the end of the Jewish State".
Final tally: statements in favour of the analogy: 21.
Statements (and frequently arguments) against: 83+
Article weight: 80% anti, 20% pro.
Can anyone still be in any doubt about what a farce this article is? Gatoclass 02:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
That's obvious, as are the pro-Zionist efforts to get it deleted. The article should instruct the reader as to what the allegations are and who makes them. Critics should be covered, however this article reveals bias gone nuts, and a flaw in Wikipedia, as your analysis shows. Kritt 05:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Gatoclass, putting aside methodological concerns with your attempts at statistical analysis of purported bias, your analysis does not demonstrate your conclusion. The question of whether this article is a "farce" goes well beyond what you are likely to capture in a statistical analysis. On another note, it might be interesting and amusing if the same analysis was done on a sample of WP articles that are about allegations that are widely disputed to establish benchmark normative ratios. Doright 20:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
* 1 Overview * 2 Allegations of apartheid in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip * 3 Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state * 4 Allegations of apartheid policies inside of Israel proper * 5 Criticism * 6 Other views * 7 See also * 8 Notes * 9 Further reading
I think the subsections should be merged into these top sections, because this allows for a better, less confusing summary style. Also, it's arguably original research for us to "highlight" what we see as the key issues and points of the discussion.
This structure would allow us to focus on the actual subject of this article: Allegations of Israeli apartheid. What do you all think of this proposed structure?-- Urthogie 17:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The deletion of sourced material from the article under the guise of "reorganizing" it is getting tiresome, and is a form of vandalism. If such behavior continues, it will be reported as such. -- Kendrick7 talk 23:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The entire article is hopelessly unbalanced and needs to be completely redone from top to bottom if it is going to reflect any sort balance at all. Just fiddling around the edges is not going to achieve anything.
At the end of January the article was relatively balanced and readable; since then it has deteriorated into a unreadable POV mess. Given the editors most actively editing it during that period, and their POVs, this was the inevitable outcome. Jayjg (talk) 00:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you refering to Urthogie's structural changes during that period? They did change the article very much. Kritt 04:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a point I raised earlier. I think it's important we put specific criticisms next to the allegations they criticize, but put general criticisms of the allegation under "Criticism" and "Other views." The distinction is an important one.-- Urthogie 20:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the proper taxonomy is specific versus nonspecific. But, I'm pretty sure that allegations call for adjacent criticism of the allegation. However, the problem with limiting critism to this format is that "the agenda" is set by the accusing sources causing the contra POV to always be on the defensive. Rhetorically, this is hardly NPOV. Therefore "Criticism" and "Other views" sections are required where the contra POV sources in effect sets the agenda. Doright 07:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The subject of this section is the following edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid&diff=124705717&oldid=124693064
I've added a cit request tag instead of accepting the immediate reversion of the contributed content. If you're not familiar with the discourse of the published opposition to the allegation you may find many of the following links instructive. http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Blood+Libel%22+apartheid&btnG=Search You will also certainly find adequate material for citation. If you or others don't remove the citation tag or provide a specific reliable source citation in the near future, I will try to do it myself. Doright 22:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe that mentions of blood libel belong in the lead. Let's put them in the article though if they're appropriate and it's not OR.-- Urthogie 00:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it might be helpful to consider Horowitz's statement: "When hundreds of millions of Muslims are calling for the extermination of the Jews of Israel this is more than a lie; it is a blood libel"...
I'm afraid it's Horowitz who is committing a libel here. When is the last time that "hundreds of millions of Muslims" called for "the extermination of the Jews of Israel"? I'd be interested to know.
I don't have any reason to believe that looking at the charge of Israeli apartheid as similar to a blood libel is considered extreme among those who oppose the apartheid allegation.
You may not have "any reasons to believe" it, but you don't have any proof of it either. Wiki isn't a soapbox for your personal beliefs, it's an encyclopedic project based on reliable, documented sources. It may be true that some critics of the apartheid analogy have likened it to blood libel, but there's no evidence that the majority have done so. Therefore this hyperbolic claim does not belong in the introduction.
Perhaps Horowitz's comments could be included elsewhere, but quite frankly I think this hysterical, partisan screed of his contributes nothing to the debate and that any space devoted to it would be better given over to more sober critics. Gatoclass 10:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Gatoclass, Isn't your statement that Horowitz himself is committing a kind of libel against Muslims an assertion of your own opinion and original research? Since the subject of this article is Allegations of Israeli apartheid, not allegations of Islamic genocide. It seems to be a strawman in any case. That you think his view is "hysterical," "partisan," and "contributes nothing to the debate" is helpful to know, but can not be determinative. The simple fact is that he among the most notable people that reject the allegation and this is how he frames the debate. Since you raised the issue, I respectfully suggest that you read what you wrote about Wiki not being a soapbox and examine the extent to which the innuendo applies to yourself. Let's continue focusing on content, not each other. Doright 20:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think andy already knows that we don't yet have consensus in regard to where the criticisms should be or how adam and moodley should be placed in the overview. Thus, I'd like it if andy would participate more thoroughly on the talk page before removing every single change I make. I've consistently explained my logic here so I only think it's fair he does the same if he plans to make such major edits. And this doesn't mean stating ones case then closing discussion. It means an ongoing discussion before he makes such changes.
Let me state my case for the criticisms briefly, once again. The criticisms should be both specific and general for two reasons:
Thank you, -- Urthogie 15:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
This is how things are done at other articles
Not in the articles I'm more familiar with. I see no reason why the critics should get two bites at the cherry, one after every opponent and then another whole section all to themselves. That is not the way to create balance.
Not only that, but it's not the way to create clarity either. Jerking the reader back and forth constantly between affirmations and denials can only serve to confuse him or her. I say let the two sides of the debate be set out clearly on each side, one after the other, so that the reader can absorb each side of the argument in turn and come to his own conclusion. Gatoclass 17:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not a "synthesis" to simply organize a list of criticisms in a logical way. Indeed one could hardly write effective articles without such organization. One of the main differences between good articles and bad ones is their level of organization, I'm sure even you would have trouble disagreeing with that. Gatoclass 01:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Andy, I've kept most of your edits, but this is one point I must insist on. Adam and Moodley give the best overview, so they're prominent in the overview section. Hell, we even made them the secondary paragraph. The article should be moved to something like human rights of palestinians under israeli occupation, see below talk page section.-- Urthogie 13:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know who's bright idea it is to float an awkward sentence fragment;
Allegations of apartheid have been made against many countries.
on line one of the lead, but it looks atrocious. Along with the other content that Urothgie keeps unilaterally deleting, and with the latest (5th?) AfD, it looks like this article is seeing yet another POV assault. Tarc 17:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Doright added that. Real-world critics of the analogy argue that Israel is being "singled out." Doright and other Wikipedians critical of the analogy argue the exact opposite, that "allegations of apartheid have been made against many countries." They've created an article as a showcase for that original synthesis, which is then repeated everywhere but sourced to nobody (hence the opener judiciously removed by Tarc). It is full of bottom-barrel google-scrapings, many of which simply misrepresent any rhetorical invocation as an allegation. So when Desmond Tutu tells the Tibetans that they too are on the "winning side," this is distorted into an "allegation of apartheid" against China. The whole ridiculous article (which is rife with this sort of garbage) is an OR-concocted rebuttal of this one masquerading as its "parent," in order to justify the POV-pushing infobox at the top of the page.-- G-Dett 18:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in hearing the answer to this. It seems like editors are going to ridiculous lengths to avoid an indepth discussion of Carter's allegation, even to the point of putting a far-left anti-Zionist into the criticism section! This to me shows the inherent contradiction of trying to group all the criticisms together-- they don't form a concrete whole when the specific criticisms are grouped with the general ones. -- Urthogie 17:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
If there is such a commonality do all agree it should be among the first sentences of the article? Do they frame the allegation as a calumny? If so, within this framework, who is the calumny against? And to who and what do they attribute this calumny to? These are a few of the questions that I have. Doright 21:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is the current version from the introductory sentences that frame the debate: Those who reject the analogy argue that it is political slander intended to malign Israel by singling it out. They say that legitimate Israeli security needs justify the practices that prompt the analogy, and argue that the practices of many other countries, to which the term is not applied, more closely resemble South African apartheid.
Here are some of the first problems I see with the above version: The way its written suggest that their argument is that since other nations are engaging in apartheid, it is unfair to "single out" Israel for doing the same. Thus, instead of representing the other side of the debate, it has the opposition conceding the premise. It then goes on to claim that it is "Israeli practices that prompt" the allegation. Again, this may be the viewpoint of some of those that make the allegation. However, isn't it the case that the dominant view among those that reject the allegation is that it is something other than "Israeli practices" that prompt the allegation? Doright 21:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Very nice little analyis Doright. But before you start parsing the nuances, how about acknowledging the basic fact that this intro contains three arguments against use of the analogy and not a single one in favour of it? Gatoclass 08:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
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The lead should fairly characterise the views of both sides. One of the similarities between Israel and South Africa, as conceived by those who use the term, is that both were colonial states. The comparison is fairly interesting because in both cases land rights are nothing like straightforward. One could bicker over whether Israel is a colony or not, but we are representing the views of both sides, not posting the "truth", whatever we believe it is. Grace Note 03:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
As per my edit: The rights and privileges are "disparate" not seperate.
disparate \DIS-puh-rit; dis-PAIR-it\, adjective: 1. Fundamentally different or distinct in quality or kind. 2. Composed of or including markedly dissimilar elements.
The term "separation" refers to physical separation/apartheid. This should also be included in the lead, since the allegations refer to disparate rights AND physical separation of the two groups impose largely by Israel. (i.e. the wall, etc.)
I have tried to make the lead more accurate. Kritt 06:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there a reason we have a list of four countries other than South Africa? The banner seems rather ridiculously POV. Was there a discussion of this that I missed? Mackan79 13:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to butt in on the fun, but all this talk of subsets and supersets, going "up" a category or down, is a red herring, and a rather lurid and pongy one at that. The banner is just a clumsy POV-pushing effort. It lists nine countries (well, eight plus the amateurishly bigoted catch-all "Muslim countries"), only three of which actually link to articles, only two of which in turn existed before today, when Urthogie revved up his google engines and found six instances where the word "apartheid" was used in connection with Australia. 6SJ7 is right that there's an important difference between South African apartheid and the system of rule in the occupied territories so unsettlingly reminiscent of it to so many. There's an equally important difference between the South Africa – Palestine parallels, which have been the central subject of numerous books and articles, scholarly and popular, on the one hand, and the ad hoc for-the-nonce metaphorical usages Urthogie is busy collating and building articles around in his effort at well-poisoning, on the other.
There's an argument you want to make: Israel's been accused of apartheid, but so has everyone else. Fine. Just find a source that makes that argument, and we'll include it. The sources critical of the analogy on the whole don't say this, though. In fact by and large they say precisely the opposite: they say Israel is being singled out for special opprobrium. That's a pervasive argument, so it's well-represented here. As far as I know, however, the argument that everyone's been accused of apartheid – where apartheid is everywhere it's nowhere etc. has only been made by Wikipedians. It doesn't belong here, and certainly not in the form of a coy banner.-- G-Dett 20:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, well double standards aren't allowed. We're keeping this.-- Urthogie 20:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, first of all, sorry for attributing to your personal researches what was in fact culled from that content-dump of an article, Allegations of Apartheid. Now, to your bill of particulars:
Urthogie, what you haven't answered is why you decided the correct infobox here is one which provides the different countries in which Apartheid has been alleged, and yet then nothing about apartheid itself. Your statement about "separate templates for separate levels" is simply nonsensical, as well as inconsistent with the example of Anarchism that you provided. What you're saying here is that all of the United States should link to each other, but shouldn't link to the United States itself, because that's on a different level. Really?
This is the fundamental problem from which the POV is apparent: on a neutral basis, these choices don't make sense. A neutral attempt to give background on this subject would not simply provide other countries where the allegation has been made: it would provide the full information on Apartheid, the crime, the allegations, and everything else. The problem, of course, is that this adds further gravitas to the article, which everybody here is willing to accept is not needed. Equally problematic, though, is what you're attempting to do, which is pick only the information that appears to promote one POV. I say that not as an accusation, but as an objective statement of how it appears to the reader.
Also, you're incorrect again that infoboxes don't have to be sourced. If something is contested as original research, it has to be sourced like anything else. Mackan79 22:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your point-by-point reply above, Urthogie. May I ask however that in the future you provide a single rebuttal to my posts rather than breaking them up into little pieces? My post was intended to present an integrated set of points, rather than a grab-bag. I also think that interjecting point-by-point rebuttals leads quickly to impasse, in the form of thick, gnarled, weed-like arguments between two people, instead of a vigorous but open debate that anyone can join.
With respect, I think you haven't quite answered the objections raised about the value of this infobox and the NPOV issues it raises. There are, as I said, many ways of "categorically grouping concepts," and some are indeed POV-pushing. Frontloading a "handy" list of all the other countries in which apartheid has been "alleged" is as POV-pushing as frontloading a handy list of all the other crimes Israel has been accused of. Now, you keep saying that infoboxes don't need reliable sources. This is true but only in the trivial sense; we don't, that is, include footnotes for infoboxes. The conceptual groupings they endorse, however, should be ones that are important to – or at the very least ones that have occurred to – the reliable sources that provide us with our understanding of the topic in the first place. Infoboxes are not little free zones where WP:NOR doesn't apply, where Wikipedians get to present their own idiosyncratic conceptual frameworks for the material at hand.
You rather breezily waved aside my point about the parallel case of "ethnic cleansing, saying that it's "not comparible to apartheid, because apartheid is named after a specific racist south african policy, while ethnic cleansing is concretely recognizable in some circumstances. 'apartheid', in short, is subjective outside of its original home (south africa)." I think this won't do, and if you don't mind I'm going to return to it and press you a little. Ethnic "cleansing" is a loanword from Serbo-Croatian named after specific policies in the former Yugoslavia, just like apartheid is a loanword from Afrikaans, named after specific policies in pre-1994 South Africa. The fact that you find the application of the term "ethnic cleansing" outside of its "original home" to be self-evidently justified in certain contexts ("concretely recognizable in some circumstances") is – with respect – beside the point. Many prominent persons with no particular axe to grind find apartheid conditions to be "concretely recognizable" in Israel-Palestine. That's also beside the point. What is not beside the point is that in both cases a morally charged historical analogy (apartheid, ethnic cleansing) is invoked in a huge variety of contexts. Sometimes the analogy is meant rhetorically and used merely for moral emphasis (describing the aftermath of Katrina as "ethnic cleansing" underscores the racial and socioeconomic fault-lines the disaster made visible, for example; referring to Cuban tourism as a form of apartheid, similarly, underscores the hypocrisy and unseemliness of a socialist pseudo-utopia kept afloat by a nakedly capitalist tourist economy). At other times the analogy is meant with much greater literalness, and becomes the subject of sustained historical comparisons by scholars, writers, journalists, activists and politicians (this is the case with ethnic cleansing in the Sudan, or apartheid in the occupied territories). An infobox that flattens these distinctions, and creates a single category for them, a category that is "so damn obvious" to Wikipedians with a given POV (but not obvious enough to have penetrated the thick skulls of our reliable sources), is POV-pushing original research. If apologists for the Janjaweed were well-represented on Wikipedia, they'd have a field day making little infoboxes about "allegations of ethnic cleansing," and neatly arraying within them whatever scraps of heated rhetoric they managed to comb together from their internet researches. I'd be opposing them as doggedly as I'm opposing you, so don't take it personally.-- G-Dett 15:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The lead includes the following statement that is not backed up by anything in the rest of the article, and the footnote itself doesn't mention a country "that more closely resembles" Apartheid either. The lead should not included weak and perhaps non-existent claims.
"and that the practices of other countries, to which the term is not applied, more closely resemble South African apartheid. [3]" Kritt 04:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Mainstream sources: Editorial: The 'Israel Apartheid Week' libel from the Jerusalem Post:
Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries deny equal rights to women, Christians, Jews, Hindus and others. Where are the protests against Saudi apartheid?
I can find other sources too if you want to be stubborn.-- Urthogie 15:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Many Islamic nations are criticised for human rights violations, but are RARELY if ever compared to South Africa and Apartheid. Israel, a democracy, is compared to South Africa. That's a big difference. Kritt 20:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7, I don't believe you've explained why you think the lead needs to characterize the analogy as coming from "some critics of Israel." Being gramatically unnecessary, it seems to basically be your OR. If you think it's necessary, feel free to explain why. Mackan79 05:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
His book says there is apartheid in Palestine, especially referencing the territories, but he never says that israel itself practices apartheid. He even makes this clear in speeches and interviews, etc., to it's essentially libel to say he makes this analogy for Israel when he only does it for Palestine. Removed him.-- Urthogie 15:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The only way in which Carter is releveant to this article is his many speeches and article in which he has made clear why he named his book what he did:
Well, he [Dershowitz] has to go to the first word in the title, which is "Palestine," not "Israel." He should go to the second word in the title, which is "Peace." And then the last two words [are] "Not Apartheid." I never have alleged in the book or otherwise that Israel, as a nation, was guilty of apartheid. But there is a clear distinction between the policies within the nation of Israel and within the occupied territories that Israel controls[,] and the oppression of the Palestinians by Israeli forces in the occupied territories is horrendous. And it's not something that has been acknowledged or even discussed in this country. . . . (Italics added.) [2]
Please stop libelling the man. The "apartheid" situation in the West Bank is a criticism of Israeli policies there, but not at all referencing anything close to an "Israeli apartheid" policy as defined by this article.-- Urthogie 16:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Sm8900 16:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)"When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa." (ref: Jimmy Carter: Israel's 'apartheid' policies worse than South Africa's, haaretz.com, 11/12/06).
Israel unilaterally disengaged. Unless the criticism was written after the unilateral disengagement, I'm suggesting we remove it, as it makes a joke out of the arguments for the analogy, and for those who are ver ignorant on this subject it actually makes them think that Israel has done nothing to leave Gaza.-- Urthogie 18:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the mentions of Gaza in this article seem to deal mainly with occupation of land, not with border control or land, air, and sea control to apartheid. I'm saying we should remove those that talk about the land control, pre-gaza withdrawl.-- Urthogie 18:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I like to think of myself as a neutral person, because I'm rabidly pro and anti Israel at the same time. How is this lead?-- Urthogie 18:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
When the allegation of Israeli apartheid is made, it can mean one of two things. The first thing it can refer to is the claim that Israeli policy in the West Bank is analogous to apartheid. It can also refer to a seperate claim--which by default accepts the first one as well-- that Israel is a South Africa- style apartheid state.
The issues involved the first allegation are the conditions and restrictions placed on Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank, while the issues involved in the second allegation are supposed similarities between Israel and South Africa. A book-length study on the subject of these allegations said that the second claim is made most often by "Palestinians, many Third World academics, and several Jewish post-Zionists who idealistically predict an ultimate South African solution of a common or binational state." The first claim, however, is associated with a seperate group, "which sees both similarities and differences, and which looks to South African history for guidance in bringing resolution to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians."
The majority of intellectuals and journalists, however, disagree with the allegation being used in any way "and deplore what [they] deem its propagandistic goals."
Are allegations of apartheid not a broad historical comparison or analogy between Israel and apartheid South Africa?-- Urthogie 20:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, if you were being reasonable, you would admit that you came here a couple weeks ago to insert this argument in the lead, [3] failed, and so then decided to replace it in template form.
Either way, if you get around to responding to G-Dett's post, please also try to explain again why you think we should have this particular "lower level template" here rather than any "higher level template." As I pointed out above, your example of Anarchism actually cuts directly against your point, since all of the Anarchism in Austria, Anarchism in China, etc. articles actually have a plain Template:Anarchism sidebar, not a narrow one on Template:Regional Anarchism. It's gotten a little silly here to ask you to actually argue your point consistently, but since three editors are disagreeing with you, perhaps it's worth asking again. Mackan79 21:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick, I'd be fine deleting the template, but simply tend to take a more minimalist approach. The problem with this template happens only to be specifically in regard to this article, where it was included as a sort of WP:POVFORK, and serves to promote a particular argument. Does it make sense to require the deletion of the whole template because it presents a POV problem in one article? I'm afraid the result would be an unnecessary deadlock. Mackan79 04:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Unindent. Lead had gotten quite ugly, with a fourth paragraph repeating an element of the third, a misplaced plural, etc. So I tightened it, not removing any substantive element, I think. Andyvphil 15:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can you guys check to make sure that everything listed under "Israel alleged apartheid state" doesn't more accurately fit under "Israel alleged apartheid in territories." We don't want to libel anybody, so check the sources :)-- Urthogie 18:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Can I suggest use of Template:Noncompliant. Problems with this article appear to be not just WP:NPOV, but that this article reads in parts like an essay and contains non-encyclopedic content. Some people may feel WP:NOR applies to, but this seems to have plenty of references.-- ZayZayEM 05:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has been tagged as POV for a year.
NPOV is the most basic of wikipedia policies.
I think we should set a date until which this article would become NPOV. If we fail by that date we should remove the article. Zeq 07:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I reverted back to a somewhat earlier version (not the version I wrote, but only with a small modification by me). It is a violation of WP:NPOV to give undue weight in the lead to those positions which accept the allegations. In fact, only in the final paragraph do we actually figure out what most commentators think about the allegation. Please don't remove this important fact, as we are otherwise giving undue weight to supporters (who are a minority in the press), and taking away the deserved weight of detractors (a majority in the press). If I were really being stubborn I'd insist we give more weight to the majority view on whether these allegations are valid, because the majority view is by definition deserving of more weight. However, I have been willing to compromise and give slightly less weight to the mainstream opinion which deserves immensely more. I've also compromised by not restoring my own lead, because I listened to consensus, despite the fact that I think it's immensely better than this lead.-- Urthogie 15:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Some editor just removed this verified statement that most commentators reject the allegations as propaganda with the edit summary "RV POV". How is this qualification a point of view? Does anyone disatgree with it? It's a verified statement of fact.-- Urthogie 15:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we slow down a little with these incessant modifications of the lead? The usual protocol is to copy whatever version of the lead has enjoyed some stability (meaning weeks, usually) and paste it in on the talk page, list your objections to it and propose a substitute in draft form. Then others either echo your objections or dismiss them. If the latter, you're out of luck. If the former, then they make suggestions and modifications to your draft rewrite. By and by the draft rewrite tightens and refines and gets backing; and when it reaches some critical mass of consensus and stability it's moved, with a certain amount of fanfare, into the article itself.
The lead isn't the place to build sandcastles to be knocked down by the next caprice of the tides.
I'm not going to edit-war with you, Urthogie, but it may interest you to know that the last paragraph of the lead as you've got it now is virtually a word-for-word repetition of the second-to-last. Then again, that's probably all changed in the three minutes I've taken to write this.-- G-Dett 16:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Agree, this edit comment warring is a waste of time.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ ♥ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 16:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's how the last two sentences read when I posted my exasperated comment:
They also assert that Israel's limitations on Palestinians in the West Bank are justified by the ongoing hostility to Israel of numerous Palestinian groups.
They who reject the analogy also assert that Israel's limitations and protective measures against Palestinians in the West Bank are made necessary by security concerns, due to ongoing hostility to Israel from numerous Palestinian groups.
The protocol for lead revision that I outlined at the top of this section ensures that the lead, whatever other faults it may suffer from at any given moment, will not stammer and chatter its way through these faults.-- G-Dett 16:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Every single accusation of apartheid in Gaza before unilateral disengagement should be placed in a seperate section. While Israel controls the air space, and the borders, I'm yet to see any sources that say that this amounts to apartheid in the settlements. What reasons are there to oppose this rather logical division, aside to confuse people who haven't heard of the disengagement, or make this article not be taken seriously by those who have?-- Urthogie 17:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Jews took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state" -- south African prime minister. I think it's likely true because South Africa was attempting to defend itself from criticism by associating with a morally just cause, but I'd still like to see a primary or secondary source even though my intuition is that it's true. The only source I could find was the guardian one, which is a tertiary source. Anyone know of a document or video from that era for this quote?-- Urthogie 17:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Shulamit Aloni, former education minister, Israel Prize winner, and a former leader of Meretz, [4] and Tommy Lapid, leader of the liberal Shinui and former Justice minister, used the term "apartheid" when describing a bill proposed by the government of Ariel Sharon to bar Arabs from buying homes in "Jewish townships" within Israel proper.[19][20][21]
Aloni's article clearly does not use the "Israeli apartheid" allegation in reference to Israel itself, but rather to its actions in the territories:
Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what's right in front of our eyes. It's simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population.
He therefore belongs in that section on settlements, not this one.
Lapid never even says there's apartheid. He variously says it "smell of apartheid" and that it's "getting close to apartheid". Note, he's saying this individual law is apartheid, not all of Israel, as well. Perhaps we need sections for specific laws and policies within Israel, so that we don't make it look like anyone who calls a given policy apartheid is saying the whole state of Israel is "apartheid state."-- Urthogie 17:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that most of the quotes mention the West Bank and Gaza in the same sentence, so it's literally impossible to seperate the two from each other. I'm going to try to make clear in the lead of that section that Israel no longer occupies Gaza land. -- Urthogie 20:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
"The majority is incensed by the very analogy and deplores what it deems its propagandistic goals."
I've reverted Kritt. -- Urthogie 22:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the lead: I believe Urthogie's format used here better and more consise, and I made the same improvement: Allegations of Islamic apartheid. Why the diffence?
Tutu talks specifically about Jerusalem, not the West Bank and Gaza. Please read his comments, he talks about "Holy Land" (Tutu's own words), not the "occupied West Bank".
The lead should not contain the quotes of one person as a set in stone summary. The lead you restored is POV, and it removed the issue regarding physical separation.
Please do not Edit War. Kritt 22:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think you are splitting hairs. Tutu knows everything there is to know about apartheid, he's leveled the charge against Israel, and his direct quote refers to Palestinians that no longer can access their homes in Jerusalem inside of Israel itself. It's clear as day what Tutu is saying. Please stop trying to obfuscate the issue. Kritt 23:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The word apartheid doesn't have to appear in every sentence. Please cool it. Urthogie, kindly do not try to censor Desmond Tutu. His comments are clear.
Kritt 07:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders. [5]
Sorry Kritt, but he think justice means leaving the territories, not destroying the Jewish state of Israel. So your reading of him is not only original research, but it's also wrong.-- Urthogie 12:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Who says other countries practices more closely resemble South Africa's than do Israel's? Let's see some sources for that before it makes into a Wikipedia lead paragraph. Israel is accused of apartheid far more than is any other country in the world. South African anti-apartheid individuals have not accused Islamic countries, Cuba, Brazil, or Australia anywhere near the level they have Israel. The lead is POV and unsupportable. Kritt 22:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the two sources you have are very weak for the claims you make in the Lead. They belong elsewhere. I read those sources and they do not agree with the sentence you support: "whose practices more closely resemble South African apartheid". The sources you have provided do not make that claim. Even so, it's a very small contingent that you are using, it's very much like cherry-picking, to support a point-of-view. Islamic nations may commit human rights abuses, but nobody calls it "apartheid" as they do democratic Israel. It truly doesn't belong in the lead and it's POV and unsupportable. Please reconsider it. Thanks. Kritt 22:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, the sentence's own sources and footnotes (as weak as they are) do not back up the sentence! It's misleading and doesn't belong anywhere near the Lead. It's POV and speculative. Kritt 23:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries deny equal rights to women, Christians, Jews, Hindus and others. Where are the protests against Saudi apartheid?
That one rhetoical question is all there is from a newspaper editorial? That doesn't warrant a sentence in the lead. It does not say that it "more closely resembles S. African apartheid", and there are literally zero South Africans that have made that claim. Come on now, please stop disrupting the article with unsourced POV claims. Kritt 06:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
She is not saying Israel is an apartheid state, she says that only the territories are. From the source provided [6]:
Israel is an occupying power that for 40 years has been oppressing an indigenous people, which is entitled to a sovereign and independent existence while living in peace with us.
1967, people. Not 1948.-- Urthogie 13:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Examples should go at the top of the allegations sections. I've moved (or removed, in the case of repeats) examples that are in the individual issues susbections. The point of these subsections is to explain the reasons for various POVs, rather than to just quote more allegations.-- Urthogie 14:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This is the actual quote from the source:
Zbigniew Brzezinski: President Carter, in my judgement, is correct in fearing that the absence of a fair and mutually acceptable resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is likely to produce a situation which de facto will resemble apartheid: ie, two communities living side by side but repressively separated, with one enjoying prosperity and seizing the lands of the other, and the other living in poverty and deprivation.
This is represented in the article as an allegation of apartheid, which it isn't. This article isn't called Allegations of likely future Israeli apartheid. Apparently someone went googling for everything with Israel and apartheid in its text :)-- Urthogie 15:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
That includes "We have apartheid," "We don't have apartheid," "We ended apartheid," "We're on the cusp of apartheid," etc.
Well, he's simply not an example of the allegation. That's a fact. I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the article. I'm saying he shouldn't be in the examples section at the beginning of that section-- because he's not an example of someone who's made the allegation.-- Urthogie 23:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, stop making original research arguments combining your apparent knowledge of linguistics ("no, no, he really means this") and the Brzezinsky quote. Please, learn to choose your battles, this is a relatively minor loss considering how many other examples you could find in the time you spent arguing. Thanks, Urthogie 19:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Fine, if you guys insist I suppose I can be pragamatic-- I don't want it outside the context of Carter's views though. Remember, it's merely a response to a question about Carter's views. And I'm not changing my mind on this. Since I'm making a reasonable comrpomise to be fair rather than correct, I'll revert either of you on a daily basis if you try to remove this compromise.-- Urthogie 22:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Brzezinski has apparently been invoking Israeli apartheid for a decade now. In 1997, sitting alongside Madelaine Albright on PBS's Newshour, Brzezinski said of then-Prime Minister Netanyahu:
His concept of "peace" is really very different from the concept of peace that labor embraced and which I suspect we support. His concept of peace is essentially a very close equivalent of what the white supremacist apartheid government in South Africa was proposing at one point for the Africans--a series of isolated--lands--broken up, not contiguous territory, essentially living in backward villages, surrounded by white islands of prosperity. This is the Likud image of solution for the Palestinian problem, and, therefore, when he's asked to stop building settlements, to stop engaging in actions which would make peace possible, instead of subverting them, he's being asked to change his policy, and he has no incentive to do that unless he feels that America will disown him, or unless the Israeli public disowns him.
In May of 2002 the Toronto Star reported that:
FOR YEARS, critics have compared Israeli policies in the occupied territories to the old South African apartheid system. Now more mainstream figures — such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Canadian-born former U.S. National Security Adviser, and South African anti-apartheid stalwarts Bishop Desmond Tutu and author Breyten Breytenbach — are drawing the parallel. Members of the 80,000-strong Jewish community in South Africa have joined the debate as well.
I can't find relevant quotes from him in 2002, but I doubt the Star was referring to his five-year-old statement on Newshour. Could be, though.
In October of the following year, in a speech at the New American Strategies for Security and Peace conference in Washington, D.C., Brzezinski said:
Soon the reality of the settlements which are colonial fortifications on the hill with swimming pools next to favelas below where there's no drinking water and where the population is 50% unemployed, there will be no opportunity for a two-state solution with a wall that cuts up the West Bank even more and creates more human suffering.
Indeed as some Israelis have lately pointed out, and I emphasize some Israelis have lately pointed out, increasingly the only prospect if this continues is Israel becoming increasingly like apartheid South Africa -- the minority dominating the majority, locked in a conflict from which there is no extraction. If we want to prevent this the United States above all else must identify itself with peace and help those who are the majority in Israel, who want peace and are prepared to accept peace.
In fact, it seems that Brzezinski has been pushing the meme for longer than Carter. I note moreover that he always uses what I'm calling the diplomatic future tense. The bad moon always rising and waxing, never quite full: "Increasingly the only prospect if this continues is Israel becoming increasingly like apartheid South Africa," he says in 2003. And then in 2006: "the absence of a fair and mutually acceptable resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is likely to produce a situation which de facto will resemble apartheid." Then again when Z-Big orders a hot dog, he probably says "I would like a hot dog," like I do, just to be nice, not because his hunger is hypothetical.-- G-Dett 01:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a final appeal for Urthogie to refrain from major edits without consensus. I've thus far avoided edit-warring with him, and haven't touched the page for days. At this point, however, the article is losing any semblance of being encyclopedic and is instead becoming Urthogie's highly idiosyncratic and wildly unreliable blog. Here's one of his latest additions:
Indeed, some Palestinians have gone so far as to encourage settlement of their land so as to make Israel look like an apartheid state.
This piece of lunacy is unsourced, naturally.
Urthogie, if you stop your frenzied editing now, we can group what you've done into various categories and go through it systematically. If you don't, I'm going to begin reverting, starting with what is patent nonsense, and moving through to what has been merely compromised by haste and lack of editorial judgment.-- G-Dett 00:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's look at G-Dett's anecodtal evidence of how I am editing in an irresponsible fashion, turning this into my "blog." She mentions this sentence,
Indeed, some Palestinians have gone so far as to encourage settlement of their land so as to make Israel look like an apartheid state.
Instead of trying to gain some insight into why I wrote this, she ignores completely the possibility that this sentence could be sourced with information already in the article. The source, of course is:
* Michael Tarazi, a Palestinian proponent of the binational solution has argued that it is in Palestine's interest to "make this an argument about apartheid", to the extent of advocating Israeli settlement, "The longer they stay out there, the more Israel will appear to the world to be essentially an apartheid state". [20
There are several other Palestinian intellectuals who take this approach as well-- their argument is that ties between Israel and the territories should be strengthened so as to give an appearence of oppression and apartheid over indiscriminate economic and political boundaries.
So, while you can argue with how I summarized that source, you can't claim that sentence is "off the wall" given that it's completely sourcable. I just hadn't yet added the source(s). A more valid, and rational criticism of it would have been that it misleadingly uses weasel words-- something I hope we can discuss. I've removed it though, because--like before-- I've decided to be pragmatic rather than correct. This anecdotal sentence, meant to show my edits in a bad light does far from that-- it reveals how there is a knee jerk response to me on this page, and how well I handle critique. -- Urthogie 02:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, first of all don't feel embattled. This has always been a contentious page. Secondly, the reaction to you here has not been "knee-jerk." In fact there's been an unusual degree of forebearance, with veteran editors of this page standing back while you rapidly dismantle work achieved through months of difficult editorial negotiations, and – without consensus or even discussion – replace it with casual, bloggily tendentious prose riddled with errors both typographical and factual. I think you timed your dramatic debut on this page very well, insofar as many here (including me) have been worn down by months of bitter edit-warring. We've been more stunned than roused to action by your five-day barrage of dubious edits.
What follows is a preliminary list of what I intend to clean up in your wake, along with detailed explanations.
1.The lead that existed before you debuted here will be restored. What you've written in its place is wordy and vague ("Those who use the analogy point to the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank") as well as inaccurate ("Most journalists and academic commentators reject the analogy as propaganda"). This last misrepresents Adam and Moodley's work in both letter and spirit. For background on this, see the detailed talk-page discussion regarding "the uses and misuses of Adam and Moodley"; it's archived here. As I wrote in that earlier discussion, Adam and Moodley stress that
"the main focus of this study" is to "draw strategic lessons from the negotiated settlement in South Africa for the unresolved conflict in the Middle East," and they make very clear that this is the analogy that provokes the three types of commentary they list. That's the general analogy that is the centerpiece of their book. There is a more specific analogy which is the centerpiece of our article, between Israeli policies toward Palestinians and Afrikaner policies toward black South Africans during apartheid. They deal with that too, but that's not what the tripartite classification refers to.
In short, Adam and Moodley are describing a taboo that casts its shadow over any attempt, like theirs, to look to South Africa for historical guidance in resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Their subject is the average attitude towards a broad analogy that includes but is not limited to the moral equation our article covers; and they make clear that they regard this average attitude as representative of an unfortunate taboo, rather than a consensus of expertise or even considered judgment. Your selective and distortive use of them in the lead has the effect of suggesting the exact opposite. (It also conflates their broad subject with our narrow one.) There is no justification for this kind of distortion, and there's no need for it either, as the material in question is presented accurately, and with appropriate nuance and detail, in the very next section of the article, "Overview."
2. I'm going to remove the "allegations of apartheid" banner, per our previous discussion, which you walked away from following a series of serves you couldn't return.
3. You added this sentence last night: "Tutu has also leveled allegations of apartheid against China's actions in Tibet[50][51], the United Kingdom's treatment of suspected terrorists[52], and the United States's treatment of suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay.[53]" This is at best an inadvertently grotesque distortion, at worst a serious misrepresentation of source material. In each of these occasions, Tutu weighs in on some issue of 'might vs. right,' and in doing so offers vague parallels, drawn from his own experience, about the perils of power unchecked ("I never imagined I would live to see the day when the United States and its satellites would use precisely the same arguments that the apartheid government used for detention without trial"), the inevitable triumph of popular resistance ("We used to say to the apartheid government: you may have the guns, you may have all this power, but you have already lost. Come: join the winning side. His Holiness and the Tibetan people are on the winning side"), etc. etc. On none of these occasions does he make an "allegation of apartheid." To say this would be like going through every Elie Weisel speech touching on contemporary political or moral issues and arguing that he's making "Holocaust allegations." I'd be inclined to read your misinterpretation as mere sloppiness, but the way you've given a double-listing, each listing cited separately to the same source ("the United Kingdom's treatment of suspected terrorists[52], and the United States's treatment of suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay.[53]") for Tutu's single quoted statement about Guantanamo Bay, suggests to me that you were knowingly writing spin. Do refrain from this.
4.Lastly (for now) there is the ill-conceived section on "The Debate on [sic] the one-state solution," which opens with a false assertion and a cheerful volley of typos:
As Moodly [sic] and X [???]observed, the allegation of apartheid is often made by those who support a one state solution.
They don't observe this, and it'd be beside the point if they did. What Adam and Moodley wrote was this:
"'Israel is Apartheid' advocates include most Palestinians, many Third World academics, and several Jewish post-Zionists who idealistically predict an ultimate South African solution of a common or binational state."
Read that carefully. It's these "several Jewish post-Zionists" specifically, not the "'Israel is Apartheid' advocates" generally (much less the Palestinian masses), who are doing this idealistic predicting of a binational state. Binationalism, at any rate, is a separate issue. What I said about its place in the lead ( [7]applies to its place in the article.-- G-Dett 18:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
How did allegations of Israeli Apartheid, get twisted into an article that first highlights Apartheid within Israel Proper, as opposed to the general apartheid policies carried out by Israel? The article is not structured correctly. Is Urthogie trying to structure the article so that the allegations get buried deep within the article? Is this good faith? The allegations are what a reader wants to learn about, not about refutations and discussions about whether the apartheid is within Israel, West Bank, or Gaza, etc. All those issues can be covered within the context of the allegations themselves. It's not an article about geography. I think the article is being stuctured as to sneakily hide and bury facts. Kritt 07:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders. [8]
Jimmy Carter states that Israeli Arabs are equal citizens, and says that the apartheid-like system in the West Bank is not based on racism. [9] [10]
You are editing in a POV fashion, and there is no consensus for what you are doing, mostly complaints. Please stop edit warring. Placement of Idi Amin before Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter is highly POV and it lacks good faith. Tutu and Carter comment on Israeli apartheid comprehensively, and to attempt to slot them deep into the article under "West Bank" is not practising good faith. Kritt 20:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I support putting that section first. I'll do it myself. What I opposed was putting content in the wrong section.-- Urthogie 13:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Your metaphors are amazingly misleading. the demographics of mormons are notable. the demographics of republicans are notable. the demographics of the pro-life cause are notable, too. The article on shakers would make clear that there are barely any shakers left.-- Urthogie 16:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's where we disagree, I suppose. To me, it's immensely important that such context be given as soon as is reasonably possible (perhaps, even, right after defining the allegations). I would demand the same exact thing on an islamofacism article. "Most commentators reject the connection between fascism and islam as inflammatory." Yep. (Adam, and Moodley, by the way, argue that the "differences outweigh the similarities" in their lead paragraph)
And G-Dett, before you chime in, the subject of that chapter is the comparison between apartheid South Africa and Israel. On that subject, they categorize the commentators into three groups. The majority who say "no, that's propaganda", those who say israel is an "apartheid state", and those who see similarities and differences. Thanks for being logical and not assuming bad faith, -- Urthogie 17:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
N.B." Poisoning the well" is a logical fallacy, not an act of malevolent scheming or criminal nastiness.-- G-Dett 17:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett's version is a blatant misreading of Adam and Moodley. Here is proof. The lead of this chapter reads:
Although Israel and apartheid South Africa are often equated as "colonial settler socities," we argue that the differences outweight the similarities. This analysis questions these popular analogies.
Then there are several paragraphs concerning how we could learn to reconcile differences in light of the ideas this model offers. Then, we are back to discussing the main subject (see above blockquote):
Academic and jouranlistic commentators on the topic can be roughly divided into three groups:
The topic, of course is the "analysis" of "these popular analogies."
Then, of course, it obviously follows that the three groups are based on their views towards the analogy. They are divided into three groups: those who think the analogy is propaganda, those who think "Israel is apartheid", and those who see merits to both positions. However, G-Dett's revision to the lead completely mixes up the paragaphs on reconciliation with views on the analogy. Thank you, -- Urthogie 17:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
How about we compromise as follows: we move the "most" clause to the "Israel as an apartheid state section." I'm willing to take it out of the lead if everyone opposes it, but we'd have to move it somewhere like that section.-- Urthogie 19:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect, I think this article is in a lot worse shape that it was back in mid-March. I for one would support a wholesale reversion back to what had been a stable, well written article, somewhere around this edit or so. -- Kendrick7 talk 19:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the current run-on sentence in the lead is bordering on nonsensical. Scroll up to see my suggested compromise. Also, I think "apartheid state" allegation section should stay because some people think Israel is a colonial apartheid state ever since 1948. So they are purposefully referring to all of Israel, not just being vague-- Urthogie 02:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's not lose sight of what this article is: Allegations of Israeli Apartheid. It should explain them, who makes them, and discuss criticism of them -- using reliable sources. What I see happening is a restructuring of the article to support turing everything upside down, and focusing on "criticism" and denial. This really isn't fair to the reader who comes here to get facts. Urthogie, if you want to represent a POV, then work on the criticism sections, but please do not deny or censor the many, many allegations themselves because they are sourced. Kritt 22:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Another problem with the "majority of journalists and academic commentators reject any analogy" quote in the lead is that the book it's cited to was published before Carter's. Carter's book has blown the topic wide open and rather transformed the discussion. The A & M statement may very well still hold but I think we'd need a current source for it.-- G-Dett 13:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of Israeli apartheid draw a controversial analogy from the policies of apartheid era South Africa to those of Israel. Those who use the analogy point to Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, policies of physical separation between the two groups, and/or allege second-class treatment of Arabs citizens in Israel proper.
While some argue that the situations resemble apartheid currently, others argue that such conditions are at risk of arising in the future. The analogy has also been invoked by Israeli political leaders and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
Many journalists and academic commentators have rejected any analogy from South African apartheid to Israel's policies and conditions. [1] Those who reject the analogy argue that Arab citizens of Israel enjoy democratic rights, [2] and that other countries also resemble South African apartheid are not accused of it. [3] [4] These critics also maintain that Israel's limitations and protective measures against Palestinians in the West Bank are based on security needs, [5].
Mackan, I like your idea of making clear at the outset that the discussion is more nuanced and involved than “pro/con” would suggest. But I don’t know about the second paragraph of what you've proposed:
While some argue that the situations resemble apartheid currently, others argue that such conditions are at risk of arising in the future. The analogy has also been invoked by Israeli political leaders and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
Who argues that there's a risk of such conditions arising in the future? Brzezinski makes very clear that he’s talking about present conditions becoming permanent, not new conditions arising. I’m not looking for a reprise here of my debate with Andyvphill, so let’s just bracket Brzezinski for a moment. Who else besides him could be thought to be talking about future Apartheid-like conditions arising?
How about this for the “nuance” paragraph:
While some who invoke the comparison allege Israel's culpability as a "colonial state," others argue that understandable security measures, when combined with the expansion and consolidation of Israel's settlement program, have produced a status quo that if left permanent will constitute a de facto form of apartheid. Broader analogies between apartheid South African and the Israeli-Palestinian impasse have also been invoked by Israeli political leaders, and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
I know, Urthogie, there's some cruft there. :) -- G-Dett 17:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I object totally to inclusion of that sentence. That one single quote does not belong in the Lead. As I recall, the word colonialism, having more sources was taken out of the lead. Let's be fair here. Also, somebody needs to find a copy of the Adam and Moodley book and NPOV all of their quotes. As it stands, Adam and Moodley have been cherry-picked to support a pro-Israel POV. It's not honest, and it doesn't fully represent what they say. Kritt 22:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of Israeli apartheid draw a controversial analogy from the policies of apartheid era South Africa to those of Israel. Those who use the analogy point to Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, policies of physical separation between the two groups, and/or allege second-class treatment of Arabs citizens in Israel proper.
While some who invoke the comparison allege Israel's culpability as a "colonial state," others argue that understandable security measures, when combined with the expansion and consolidation of Israel's settlement program, have produced a status quo that if left permanent will constitute a de facto form of apartheid. Broader analogies between South Africa and the Israeli-Palestinian impasse have also been invoked by Israeli political leaders, and studied academically for parallels if not outright allegations.
Many journalists and academic commentators have strongly rejected any analogy from Israel to South Africa's apartheid era. [6] Those who reject the analogy argue that Arab citizens of Israel enjoy democratic rights, [7] and that other countries also resemble South African apartheid are not accused of it. [8] [4] These critics also maintain that Israel's limitations and protective measures in the West Bank are based on security needs. [5]
The first cite in this article (to a study, apparently) seems to be malformed. It says "op cit" in the footnote, but "op cit" refers to earlier citations. There is no earlier citation, so the study seems impossible to look up at the moment. .V. Talk| Email 23:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Template:Allegations of apartheid has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.-- Zleitzen (talk) 16:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Benny Morris and the following blockquote the largest in the article? This article is about Allegations of Israeli apartheid, and the reader wants to learn about them, who makes them, and what the allegations actually are. I find the emphasis on Criticism to be POV. Let's not deny or hide the allegations of Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter. Discuss criticism, but let's not suppress allegations or bury them for POV purposes. Here is the largest quoted source in the article. WP is not supposed to be a soapbox? Let's be fair. The Allegations themselves should not be suppressed or denied.
According to historian Benny Morris, one of the most widely quoted scholars on the Arab-Israeli conflict,
Israel is not an apartheid state — rather the opposite, it is easily the most democratic and politically egalitarian state in the Middle East, in which Arabs Israelis enjoy far more freedom, better social services, etc. than in all the Arab states surrounding it. Indeed, Arab representatives in the Knesset, who continuously call for dismantling the Jewish state, support the Hezbollah, etc., enjoy more freedom than many Western democracies give their internal Oppositions. (The U.S. would prosecute and jail Congressmen calling for the overthrow of the U.S. Govt. or the demise of the U.S.) The best comparison would be the treatment of Japanese Americans by the US Govt ... and the British Govt. [incarceration] of German emigres in Britain WWII ... Israel's Arabs by and large identify with Israel's enemies, the Palestinians. But Israel hasn't jailed or curtailed their freedoms en masse (since 1966 [when Israel lifted its state of martial law]).
[Morris later added: "Israel ... has not jailed tens of thousands of Arabs indiscriminately out fear that they might support the Arab states warring with Israel; it did not do so in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 or 1982 — despite the Israeli Arabs' support for the enemy Arab states."]
As to the occupied territories, Israeli policy is fueled by security considerations (whether one agrees with them or not, or with all the specific measures adopted at any given time) rather than racism (though, to be sure, there are Israelis who are motivated by racism in their attitude and actions towards Arabs) — and indeed the Arab population suffers as a result. But Gaza's and the West Bank's population (Arabs) are not Israeli citizens and cannot expect to benefit from the same rights as Israeli citizens so long as the occupation or semi-occupation (more accurately) continues, which itself is a function of the continued state of war between the Hamas-led Palestinians (and their Syrian and other Arab allies) and Israel. [9]
Kritt 19:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Humus Spapiens: Benny Morris representing criticism, should not be the most quoted person in the article, that is just dishonest. Kritt 09:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
He should be the most prominent quote in the article. He's the most scholarly. G-Dett, by the way, is suggesting we add original research by adding notes on his scholarship. That is for his article, not this one. A link is given on his name. This whole talk page section is unneeded. Thanks, -- Urthogie 15:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Desmond Tutu is a better authority on Apartheid than is Benny Morris. The POV to bury Desmond Tutu is dishonest. If you want Morris, then kindly stop burying Tutu. Let's try to be fair here. Kritt 20:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Humus Sapiens, you wrote: "Carter and Tutu are deranged politicians". Can you be NPOV? Kritt 20:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It's redundant to have a separate examples section when we already have all these examples specifically integrated for clarity.-- Urthogie 16:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
There is not one person editing the article that has read, or has a copy of A & M's book. It's not mainstream at all. The A & M information has been "cherry-picked" to represent pro-Israeli POV. People should endeavour to get a copy of that book first. They are NOT the only or ultimate source. I wish people would be honest. Kritt 06:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to NPOV the amount of blockquotes and/or even them out. A reader who comes here to learn, finds less text about the allegations themselves. Please do not bury Apartheid expert Desmond Tutu's allegations. Kritt 20:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
A & M actually give an overview of the analogy, while noone else does, aside from short articles in newspapers. This is why we give them weight in the article. Also, integration actually has consensus support. You keep editing against consensus by reworking the article structure, andy. Everyone here but you and Kritt support having the sections in the form they are right now.--
Urthogie 03:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It's really getting tiresome that some editors appear totally unwilling to collaborate here. Please be fair and honest. This article is about allegations, not playing games with the article structure to deny or hide them. The level of blockquotes for Criticism needs more brevity, and I will work on that. Kritt 07:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
NPOV is not measured by number of words? Then why do pro-Israeli editors revert, deny, and diminish the actual allegations themselves, and support only huge blockquotes of "criticism"? Kritt 05:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
You keep reverting the article structure to a version that has no consensus. We have an overview section for the purpose of summarizing the subject. Going right into examples is the opposite of explanatory, and that's why we don't do it right away. We do it soon after though.
Also, to Kritt, please stop puttin things in the wrong section. Tutu and Carter don't allege that all of Israel is an apartheid state. We distinguish for a reason-- to be clear on this issue. We've already put the section that Tutu and Carter are in at the very top, per your request. The overview (a summary section) is the only thing which comes before it.-- Urthogie 03:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu are not original research. Please do not continue to bury them and disrupt the article and the allegations. The allegations themselves are the topic. Work on Criticism if that is your POV. Thanks. Kritt 06:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
There should be two articles - Allegations of Israeli Apartheid and Status of Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank, with a redirect from Israeli Apartheid itself to the latter of the two. This latter article could use almost all of the material here on actual status issues, but would need a ton of balance. The allegations should refer to this latter article for all but the most general and noncommital factual claims (though all the he-said-she-said which uses the word apartheid stays.) This article should be about what its title says, and not an excuse for a POV fork of factual data. (note: I'm not claiming that any data here is false - just that any article with this title will inevitably sideline any equally-true pro-Israel facts). -- Homunq ( talk • contribs)
There could be two articles, without diminishing or hiding the factual information contained herein. Kritt 06:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Do Adam and Moodley's research really investigate the distribution of journalists' and commentators' opinions on the allegations? To me it seems (from the chapter used as a source here) that they only assume this. Is this a part of their scientific study? How did they do it? It would be unprecise to claim that this is something the study "found" unless this distribution is the object of their study. Any opinions?
An academic investigation in 2005 found that the majority of journalists and academic commentators reject, as propaganda, any analogy from South African apartheid and the political process of reconciliation that ended it to the Israel-Palestine impasse and the prospects for resolving it. [1][2] and that other countries also resemble South African apartheid are not accused of it.
pertn 10:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam & Moodley represent a disproportionate part of the article, and nobody has heard of them. Pro-Israeli POV editors have cherry-picked from (A&M), and continually try to diminish the allegations of Apartheid from experts like Desmond Tutu. That conduct is really dishonest, in my opinion. Adam & Moodley do NOT deny allegations of Israeli Apartheid, however this article leads one to believe they do. Neither Adam or Moodley is an expert on Apartheid as is Desmond Tutu or the many other anti-apartheid activists that are referenced in this article, but are mostly obscured by pro-Israel editors. Thanks. Kritt 06:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I like that Urthogie has emphasized the distinction between the charge of apartheid in the territories vs. within Israel. I don't, however, understand the point of this third section with its cryptic title "Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state." What view is supposedly shared by the figures herded together into this section? "Apartheid state" is a phrase. Some people use it to mean that there are "apartheid policies inside of Israel proper"; others use it to mean that Israel practices something like "apartheid in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip." Probably more use the phrase to mean the former than the latter. But who cares? There are separate sections for both of these views, and we don't need a third. Let's dissolve the section "Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state," and slot the figures within it (who seem to have grouped together for no other reason than a similar choice of words) into their proper categories.
I also think we should structure our presentation to reflect the fact that the preponderance of "allegations of Israeli apartheid" refer to the territories, not Israel proper.-- G-Dett 15:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The structure. Adding examples before overview, as if we don't already have examples.-- Urthogie 18:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie has reworked the "structure" of the article to push pro-Israeli POV. Andy is correct to worry about Adam & Moodley's positioning in the article. Plus, nobody currently editing the article has read, or has a copy of Adam & Moodley, and the quotes are cherry-picked". They are relatively meaningless in this issue worldwide. South African anti-apartheid activists are being hidden and obscured. Kritt 05:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19993
It's only when one speaks of the lesser "Palestine"—meaning, as Jimmy Carter says he does, the territories that would participate in the full-fledged two-state solution that's supposed to be the aim of Western diplomacy—that "apartheid" begins to shape up as a charge more troubling than an epithet, as a loose analogy that carries some weight.
also..
Carter defends the use of "apartheid" in his title like a politician defending a particularly tough attack ad. He says he doesn't regret it, that it was a deliberate provocation that has had its intended effect; in other words, that it works as an attention grabber. In his hands, it's basically a slogan, not reasoned argument, and the best that can be said for it, as we've seen, is that significant similarities can be found in the occupation of the territories. It's understandable if Israelis who feel sickened by a sense that they're personally implicated in the brutality of the occupation resort to the word in order to shame their countrymen. Some outsiders might contemplate the phenomenon of suicide bombing and ask how they would deal with the bombers before resorting to the label "apartheid." Others might insist on their right to be outraged about both the bombings and the oppressive measures imposed in the name of counterterrorism.
Meron Benvenisti, who has been intrigued by the comparison to South Africa over the years, now calls for a rhetorical cease-fire. The use of the term "apartheid," he wrote back in 2005, has become in Israel a "mark of leftist radicalism," while its denial stands as proof of "Zionist patriotism." Objective comparison or discussion of the validity of any comparison is "nearly impossible." Anyone who goes into the question, Benvenisti wrote, "will be judged by his conclusions." The choice, he said, is between being called an anti-Semite or a fascist. The occupation should be seen in its own harsh light, he concluded, rather than subjected to a comparison.
Article distinguishes between the various accusations, showing we're doing the right thing here. Plenty to add from it, not only to discussing Carter's example, but also for the overview section.-- Urthogie 03:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"Carter defends the use of "apartheid" in his title like a politician defending a particularly tough attack ad."
Urthogie: Wikipedia is not a blog. That source is POV.
Kritt 05:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.
this article is unwarranted and non-factual, based on the fact that "apartheid" itself is a charged, loaded and scurrilous word. There is absolutely no factual basis for labeling Israel aparthied. it has tried repeatedly to make peace with Palestinians, and has been rebuffed repeatedly. Any existing restrictions are due to ongoing incitement by the Palestinian side, and stem only from lack of success of Israel's efforts to reach a lasting definitive political settlement. -- Sm8900 17:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no deliberate distortion. Experts have spoken. The allegations of Apartheid are numerous, and reliable. Many South African anti-apartheid activists have said so. The attempts to deny or hide these allegations discredit Wikipedia. Kritt 05:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The article's examples should be converted from bullets to paragraphs. This way they can be discussed by other sources in the paragraphs as well.-- Urthogie 17:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Other sources in paragraphs is a terrible idea. This is an attmempt to revise, hide, and deny the actual allegations themselves. Let the text not be hidden. Urthogie: if you want to work on the Criticism sections, please do so, but do not remove allegations due to POV. Kritt 05:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Most Wikipedia articles should consist of prose, and not just a list of links. Prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, while a list of links does not. Prose flows, like one person speaking to another, and is best suited to articles, because their purpose is to explain. Therefore, lists of links, which are most useful for browsing subject areas, should usually have their own entries: see Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) for detail. In an article, significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely listed
Source: Wikipedia:Embedded lists (style guideline). Kritt, is it incredibly POV to follow style guidelines??? Noone is suggesting we remove the allegations, only that we make them conform with style guidelines. Damn.-- Urthogie 18:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Until all of us either agree to these points, or agree to revert anyone who edits in violation of these points, I don't support unlocking the article.-- Urthogie 18:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is a fork of "Human Rights in Israel" article - no beating around the bush. If anything, there could be a different article at "Human Rights of Palestinians in Israel and West Bank". So what is the primary argument that this article should stay seperately than those two? The title is inherently POV and OR - that is the primary reason why so many edit-wars and disputes happen: if the title has problems, than the disputes will never cease no matter how NPOVising is done. Let's just merge it with HR in Israel or rename it to HR of PL in IS and WB.. Baristarim 03:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Mackan, Kendrick, and G-Dett, the three users who have been the most articulate critics of my edits on this page, have all supported, in varying degrees the tripartite division of these allegations. At the very least, there is no consensus against the division. The whole idea of reverting the article back to March was raised, but several users, such as me 61S7, and Mackan opposed that.-- Urthogie 20:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Haven't been to this article for a while, on the plus side I'll say it seems to be better written than it was.
However, there is at least one major problem I see with this article, which is a problem I see with a number of other controversial pages on Wiki. And that is that the article essentially leads off with a long series of denials that the allegations have any validity.
In my opinion, such a format is totally inappropriate and violates NPOV by attempting to "poison the well" in advance of the allegations themselves. Now I don't know if there is a Wiki rule or guideline on this, but I think it's long past time, if it does not exist, that one was written prohibiting such practices. IMO, the criticism section of any article should always come after the section or sections describing the substance of the topic (in this case, the allegations).
Another criticism related to this one is the frequency with which contradictory statements are introduced into text as opposing editors seek to counteract each other's statements. The end result of this tendency is that the overall integrity of articles is destroyed as one contradictory claim succeeds another in line after line. Articles thereby become an incomprehensible mess, which drags down the quality of the project as a whole. Again, I think this practice needs to be strongly discouraged, preferably by a rule or guideline if one does not exist.
The third problem I have with this article in particular is that it's become rather too long and waffling. Surely the allegations, and the criticisms and denials of such, can be presented more succinctly? Gatoclass 03:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that's just my point. What is a statement that "most commentators reject the analogy" doing at the head of the article? It looks very much like an attempt to poison the well before the allegations themselves have been canvassed.
Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, Adam and Moodley themselves do not reject the notion of apartheid applying to Israel. So the statement itself is a misrepresentation of their position. The point they were apparently trying to make is that "most commentators" are either wrong or ill informed. But the way they are quoted, it looks as if they are endorsing the view of this supposed majority. Gatoclass 05:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam and Moodley believe that there are more differences than similarities
That may the case, but then that is a long way from being "incensed by the very analogy and deplor[ing] what it deems its propagandistic goals". But the way the information is presented in the article gives the impression that the latter is the informed view - when A&M apparently reject it.
As for "editing and adding to it", I've already stated my view about that. It's just going to become another battleground over content. Why not just divide the article up into pro- and anti- sections, and leave it at that? Gatoclass 05:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, from a Wikipedia policy standpoint you'd need a source saying that suddenly most commentators accept the allegations of Israeli apartheid now to contradict Adam and Moodley. Obviously, such a source can't be found because such a claim is patently untrue. The reaction to Carter's book-- or more specifically, its title-- is only further proof of how most commentators and society at large view this allegation. Look at the reaction from the Democrats... from Carter's own staff, who resigned. The polls supporting Israel in the United States, have not spiked as a result of Carter's book. It's a book that makes the allegation! It's not the Middle East version of Uncle Tom's Cabin, causing some sort of huge paradigm shift. Nothing fundamental has changed in regard to what "most commentators" say. Carter's book added to the discussion, but it did not change what "most" believe. Aside from the work of Benny Morris (and even that's a maybe), I don't know of any author who has singlehandedly changed conceptions of the Middle East conflict in the public at large, or among "most commentators".
Also, the word study is kind of vague when it comes to the social sciences. "Analysis" would be the equivalent here. But honestly, it's silly semantics. Adam and Moodley overview the allegations. If someone else mainstream does it, please add them to that section. See below for why I think the arguments against the inclusion of A&M have been red herrings.-- Urthogie 02:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam and Moodley are the only academics whose expertise is precisely the comparison between South Africa and Israel, and also the only academics who have written academically on the subject. Of course their views should be extremely heavily weighted. As for objections that the "criticism" comes first, whether or not that is reasonable depends on whether or not you view the concept as valid or as spurious. Jayjg (talk) 02:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority.
Minority views, huh? Helps to read shit doesn't it.-- Urthogie 19:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett and Pertn have argued against the current placement/position of A&M in the article. Let me outline why I think their logic is severely flawed. Here's their logic (See relevant posts at: [13] [14])
Translated another way, it could sound a bit more ridiculous
Adam and Moodley devote a chapter of their book (which covers a much larger topic) to the more specific topic of comparing South African apartheid to the situation in Israel/palestine. In that chapter of their book, they discuss the allegations of apartheid and who makes them. They analyze these allegations, and come to the conclusion that while there are some similarities, the situation is more different than similar, and the causes are much more different as well. Even if you disagree with their specific analysis, the answer here would be to add other mainstream overviews, not to remove this one on the basis of spurious logic. -- Urthogie 01:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
:)-- Urthogie 16:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, if you do end up adding sources, we can adjust the lead to reflect that of course. I think the main issue is just that people tend not to write cool-headed analyses of such emotionally weighted charges.-- Urthogie 16:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam & Moodley have a disproportionate amount in this article. Their work is cherry-picked to support a Zionist POV. Has anyone who edits this article read their book, or even have access to a copy of it?
Kritt 04:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't help but notice that so much of this relates to Carter's book. I was trying to improve the coverage and discussion of his book's use of the word but I was overwhelmed by how many sources discuss it. If we want to give an in-depth discussion of his use of the word in an NPOV fashion, wouldn't it make sense to give him his own section? Anyone who searches for stuff on this subject can't help but notice his use of the word is responsible for most of the term's discussion/coverage. Any support in this regard?-- Urthogie 16:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is called allegations of Israeli apartheid. A major head of state making the allegations is by very definition notable. The definition of a reliable source for this article isn't a political scientist. If that were the case then we'd have to exclude other political figures as well, which we haven't done. All in all, it's ridiculous to remove this guy.-- Urthogie 18:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
My guess is that this misunderstanding of what makes a "reliable" source is based on the misconception that the source must be a "reliable" person.-- Urthogie 18:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you negotiating with yourself? Idi Amin would be good source to reference if one had a Zionist POV and was interested in poisoning the well. Kritt 04:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Here we go again. Andy's edit summary was "removing self-identified third pole." Why remove the only mainstream analysis available?
We should discuss their individual views in "other views", yes, but we should also include their overview here, as it's the only mainstream one available.-- Urthogie 21:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Taking a step back from the A&M issue for just a moment, I think we ought to make a distinction between various types of allegations. Some draw a comparison between certain elements of Israeli policy to certain elements of SA apartheid policy; some feel that the effects of Israeli policy - regardless of their intent - are reminiscent of the effects of SA apartheid; others say that there's a trajectory that might take Israel to a state of de facto apartheid; and yet others go so far as to say that what Israel does is just like or even worse than SA apartheid. Once you've parsed Carter's view, for example, it's pretty clear that he means "apartheid" in a very narrow sense, whereas Idi Amin probably meant it in the broadest possible sense. -- Leifern 21:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmm...It seems like the Criticism section should be for people who issue general criticisms of the allegation, while the intext criticisms should be those that deal with criticisms of specific claims. Does anyone oppose this? I plan on applying this principle.-- Urthogie 21:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Please don't create false contrasts. Adam and Moodley are experts writing scholarly works in their are of expertise, and backing it up with sources. Finkelstein is a polemical author giving his unsourced personal opinion in a left-wing newsletter. Also, A&M are talking about the acceptance of the term itself, Finkelstein is making claims about the "reality". In addition, Finkelstein doesn't actually address A&M's point, and he is giving his personal opinion about an entirely different audience. Jayjg (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion of Finkelstein is irrelevant. He amply fits the definition of a reliable source. And A&M don't back up their assertion with any evidence, any more than Finkelstein does. Gatoclass 18:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
1. As I said, A&M are virtual unknowns whereas Finkelstein is a very weil known high profile academic. That Finkelstein's style is "polemical" has no bearing on the issue whatever. He's a qualified academic and a specialist in the field.
2. No, A&M's comment was published in their own book. And Counterpunch is a long-standing US periodical, not merely an "online newsletter".
3. No, A&M just divided respondents into three groups - those who vehemently deny the analogy, those who affirm it and those who are somewhere in between. Big deal. Finkelstein also divides opinion into three groups - American Jews, the US media and everybody else. Neither party gives any further explanation of how they came to their separate conclusions. A&M's comment therefore has no more substance than Finkelstein's.
4. Oh nonsense. It's not a "false synthesis" at all. It's two disparate opinions attached with some linking prose. There is no conclusion drawn from the two. You might as well argue the entire article is a false synthesis in that case.
These objections have no substance. I'm reverting. Gatoclass 19:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Did you get around to reporting me for violating 3RR yet Urthogie? Perhaps you'd better remember to report yourself too, since you've reverted other editors on this page at least five times in the last 24 hours, and possibly double that. Gatoclass 20:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam & Moodely are not pro-Israel on this subject. They are not well-known, but if we are going to rely on them as Jayjg is suggesting, they at least ought to be referenced more accurately. Who has read their book? Who has a copy? I do know that the footnote to this article, the 20-some-odd pages referenced, are without question not represented here in NPOV fashion. Their work is skewed towards Zionist POV. How may A&M quotes are there currently? Ten? They cannot be all pro-Zionist. Jayjg, do you believe that all A&M quotes in this article should be pro-Zionist? Can you write-for-the-enemy and help improve things here? Thanks. Kritt 04:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why so many sources have disappeared from the article in the past month? We had 111 sources in mid-March and now the article is down to only 88. That's slightly over 20% less. Was there some discussion above to delete all these I might have missed? It's going to be a real pain to restore all this.... -- Kendrick7 talk 04:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I haven't helped keep things straight forward for awhile. Have they deleted and/or diminished Desmond Tutu again? Kritt 04:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem was, a whole section was gutted and then, just now, "deleted according to talk." Though, again, I don't see any "talk" about this. I've restored it in full. -- Kendrick7 talk 23:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think we need to radically reconceive the "overview" section. The overview section should be historical, beginning with the first comparisons between the two situations, and tracing the development of the "Israeli apartheid" concept in debate and discussion of Israel-Palestine. Adam and Moodley are really rather minor figures in this, in that their book deals only glancingly with the topic of this article. Proponents of the concept of "Israeli Apartheid" turn to the example of South Africa because they want to stress Israel's human rights violations and the moral untenability of the status quo, especially within the occupied territories. Though Adam and Moodley touch on this, and frequently invoke such comparisons themselves, they discuss the South African model for a completely different reason – because the South African impasse ended well, and they want to explore the viability of that model for resolving Israel-Palestine. Instead of pretending to track A & M for our article's overview (I say "pretending" advisedly), we should organize our discussion so that it incorporates A & M in context – the context of those invoking South Africa as a model for conflict resolution. Dennis Ross and others have suggested that if the Palestinians could put forth "a Mandela," the conflict could be resolved. A & M by and large reject this argument, stressing that the South African model of a morally unifying leader is a mirage – that there are more intractable structural causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That debate has its place here, I suppose, but it makes no sense to turn the overview over to Adam and Moodley, because they themselves only passingly provide an overview of our topic (and as Andyvphil eloquently pointed out, "their typology of critical reaction isn't really a serious typology at all, but an attempt to claim for themselves credit for being the moderate middle").-- G-Dett 21:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, I agree with your analysis re A&M, their interest in the apartheid analogy is focussed on its utility as a conflict resolution model. They are not interested in determining whether or not Israel's occupation is the moral equivalent of apartheid, indeed they are mostly at pains to withhold judgement in that regard, hinting that such judgements are "subjective". But the moral dimension is obviously central to the concerns of most of those employing the analogy. So A&M in my opinion are not only being overused in this article, but misused.
I'm not sure I agree with you though, in your suggested fix. I don't see what point there is in listing allegations chronologically. It certainly doesn't sound like something you'd want in an overview.
I'm still of the opinion that the article doesn't really need an "overview" - just a section listing the various allegations, followed by a section criticising them. I simply cannot see why this structure should not be acceptable to everyone, since it is fair to both sides. But if the article must have an overview, then it certainly needs to include more than just one academic opinion. That can in no way be construed as balanced. Which is why I think the inclusion of Finkelstein is a much needed counter. Gatoclass 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Jay, Gatoclass raises an important question. Who for you are the screaming teenagers best kept out of the overview? In the past you've questioned the credibility of Desmond Tutu and Haaretz journalist Amira Hass; are there others? I'm hoping to sort of sound you out before drafting something; if potential conflicts could be identified in advance that would be ideal.-- G-Dett 15:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
this article is, at a minimum, four times as long as it would be in any reasonable or serious work.
Yes, but whose doing is that? Whenever I try to delete something of marginal value, like the opinion of Idi Amin or jewwatch, someone comes along and restores it. When I try to delete ponderous waffle from A&M, that is instantly restored as well. When I argue for dropping the overview altogether and just sticking with a pro- and anti- section, I get no support.
This article could easily be half the length it is, but it appears that some editors aren't actually interested in a clear and concise summary of the debate.
So here's a question for you. If it's "four times as long" as it needs to be, how about identifying the 75% that you think is superfluous? Gatoclass 23:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Desmond Tutu knows more than just "sound-bites" about Apartheid. Are you questioning his expertise? Kritt 04:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought it might be instructive to take a closer look at the article - specifically, to count the number of statements in it that affirm the analogy, versus those that reject it and those that are neutral. Here are the results:
1. Intro:
A description of the analogy, followed by three arguments about why the analogy is wrong. That is, one neutral comment and three anti. Bias level: 100% to the anti-. Pro 0, Anti 3.
2. Overview:
Leads with a comment asserting that the anti- side is in the majority. Follows it with a comment that the pro's are mostly "Palestinians and third world academics". Pro 0, Anti 2.
Then followed with some irrelevant waffle about how Israeli politicians "use the analogy self servingly". Neutral.
Then a paragraph listing a handful of credible sources which have employed the analogy, followed by one listing a bunch of crackpots and antisemites who have used it. Pro 1 Anti 1.
Overview summary: Pro 1 Anti 3. Cumulative weight so far, Pro 1 Anti 6, neutral 1.
NOTE That we have had two sections up until this point, and not a word has even been said concerning the actual substance of the allegations!
3. Allegations of apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
1st two paras: Tutu calls for peace - an irrelevancy. Weight neutral.
3rd and 4th paras : Tutu says the territories "remind him" of apartheid. Pro 1.
Next paragraph: On Jimmy Carter's book. Mentions that Carter's use of the analogy "caused great controversy", resignations, condemnation from the Dems, "including Clinton and Pelosi". Let's be generous and call it Pro 1 just because the name "Carter" got a mention in a paragraph that does nothing but attack him. That's Pro 1, Anti 5.
Next para: Weak statement from Brezinski that de facto apartheid is "likely" if conflict is not resolved. Pro 1 (just barely).
Next, Soviet ambassador from '60's called it apartheid. His statement instantly negated by reminder that Soviets were cold war enemies of US and Israel. At best, neutral, at worst Anti 1. Again, let's be generous and call it neutral.
Next, members of Israeli Knesset called it apartheid. But since they happen to be Arabs, their opinion is immediately suspect, if not downright worthless. Bias: neutral to negative. Say neutral.
Next, former AG of Israel says it's apartheid. Finally an unqualified Pro from someone likely to be objective. Pro 1.
Next, John Dugard calls it apartheid. Pro 1.
Next, two sources casting doubt on Dugard's objectivitiy. Anti 2.
Final paragraph, four names who agree with the analogy are quickly tossed at the reader, and only one quoted. Since the dubious or partisan nature of virtually all those making the allegations up to this point has effectively been established by now, this one belated paragraph from credible sources doesn't have much impact, but let's be really generous and say Pro 4.
Summary of weight in this section: Pro 9, Anti 7, neutral 2. Cumulative totals: Pro 10 Anti 13, neutral 3.
NOTE that up to this point almost nothing has been said about why the occupation resembles apartheid.
4. West bank barrier.
1st para: Prefaces statement that barrier is "apartheid wall" with statement about "spate of suicide attacks against Israeli civilians" which necessitated it - thus effectively canceling out the Pro opinion. Pro 1 Anti 1.
2nd: At least five statements explaning why the wall is necessary, how effective it's been, how it's only "defensive". Anti 5.
Summary of this section: Pro 1 Anti 6. Cumulative: Pro 11 Anti 19, neutral 3.
Note: Still only a couple of vague statement in the article about why the analogy is valid up to this point.
5. Pass laws.
Not a very important issue, but this section contains two pro statements and one anti. Cumulative: Pro 13 Anti 20 neutral 3.
6. Marriage. Two pro statements immediately cancelled out by two anti. Bias neutral. Cumulative: Pro 15 Anti 22 neutral 3.
7. Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state.
Opens with a quote from discredited apartheid architect that Israel is an apartheid state. Worthless if not negative endorsement. Followed by two anti statements. Let's be generous and say neutral 1 anti 2.
Idi Amin endorses the analogy. Another negative. Anti 1.
"A Palestinian Jew" endorses it. Another highly dubious source. Neutral.
Finally, another Palestinian says the analogy should be used "in Palestine's interest". Another effectively worthless if not negative endorsement. Let's say neutral.
Anti 3 neutral 3. Cumulative Pro 15 Anti 25 neutral 6.
8. Allegations of Racism.
The allegation of racism is made. Pro 1. Followed by six refutations. Anti 6.
Cumulative: Pro 16, Anti 31, neutral 6.
9. Allegations of apartheid in Israel proper
Weak statement that an Israeli law might be getting "close to apartheid". Negated by statement that law was never passed. Neutral to negative. Say neutral.
10. Land policy. 1 pro statement about how the policy indicates racism, followed by two statements refuting the claim and two more statements on how "beneficial" the policies actually are to Arabs. Let's be generous again and say Pro 1 Anti 2.
Cumulative: Pro 17, Anti 33, neutral 6.
11. Status of Israeli Arabs. A totally anti section, not even a semblance of balance. I count at least 16 anti statements in this section, NO pro.
Cumulative: Pro 17, Anti 49, neutral 6.
12. Demographics. Nothing of value here. Neutral.
13. Identity cards. Prefacing the remarks as "controversial", someone is quoted as saying Israel's identity cards are effectively racist. Same source says they are like apartheid SA's. Be generous and say Pro 2. Followed by several statements about how other ME countries have similar cards. Anti 2.
Cumulative: Pro 19, Anti 51, neutral 6.
14. Criticism. Yes, folks, we've finally arrived at the criticism section!
Far too many anti statements to count, so I'll just count paragraphs. (Note that these are all arguments against use of the analogy, not merely statements for or against). 14 anti. Cumulative Pro 19, Anti 65, neutral 6.
15. Other views (actually, exclusively the views of A&M).
At least 17 anti arguments in this section. Zero Pro statements.
Cumulative Pro 19, Anti 82, neutral 6.
16. The One State Solution.
A&M again. For once, I think I can say this section is essentially pro. I'll call it Pro 2, because of Olmert's statement that the one state argument would be "powerful" and "mean the end of the Jewish State".
Final tally: statements in favour of the analogy: 21.
Statements (and frequently arguments) against: 83+
Article weight: 80% anti, 20% pro.
Can anyone still be in any doubt about what a farce this article is? Gatoclass 02:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
That's obvious, as are the pro-Zionist efforts to get it deleted. The article should instruct the reader as to what the allegations are and who makes them. Critics should be covered, however this article reveals bias gone nuts, and a flaw in Wikipedia, as your analysis shows. Kritt 05:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Gatoclass, putting aside methodological concerns with your attempts at statistical analysis of purported bias, your analysis does not demonstrate your conclusion. The question of whether this article is a "farce" goes well beyond what you are likely to capture in a statistical analysis. On another note, it might be interesting and amusing if the same analysis was done on a sample of WP articles that are about allegations that are widely disputed to establish benchmark normative ratios. Doright 20:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
* 1 Overview * 2 Allegations of apartheid in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip * 3 Allegations that Israel is an apartheid state * 4 Allegations of apartheid policies inside of Israel proper * 5 Criticism * 6 Other views * 7 See also * 8 Notes * 9 Further reading
I think the subsections should be merged into these top sections, because this allows for a better, less confusing summary style. Also, it's arguably original research for us to "highlight" what we see as the key issues and points of the discussion.
This structure would allow us to focus on the actual subject of this article: Allegations of Israeli apartheid. What do you all think of this proposed structure?-- Urthogie 17:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The deletion of sourced material from the article under the guise of "reorganizing" it is getting tiresome, and is a form of vandalism. If such behavior continues, it will be reported as such. -- Kendrick7 talk 23:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The entire article is hopelessly unbalanced and needs to be completely redone from top to bottom if it is going to reflect any sort balance at all. Just fiddling around the edges is not going to achieve anything.
At the end of January the article was relatively balanced and readable; since then it has deteriorated into a unreadable POV mess. Given the editors most actively editing it during that period, and their POVs, this was the inevitable outcome. Jayjg (talk) 00:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you refering to Urthogie's structural changes during that period? They did change the article very much. Kritt 04:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a point I raised earlier. I think it's important we put specific criticisms next to the allegations they criticize, but put general criticisms of the allegation under "Criticism" and "Other views." The distinction is an important one.-- Urthogie 20:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the proper taxonomy is specific versus nonspecific. But, I'm pretty sure that allegations call for adjacent criticism of the allegation. However, the problem with limiting critism to this format is that "the agenda" is set by the accusing sources causing the contra POV to always be on the defensive. Rhetorically, this is hardly NPOV. Therefore "Criticism" and "Other views" sections are required where the contra POV sources in effect sets the agenda. Doright 07:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The subject of this section is the following edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid&diff=124705717&oldid=124693064
I've added a cit request tag instead of accepting the immediate reversion of the contributed content. If you're not familiar with the discourse of the published opposition to the allegation you may find many of the following links instructive. http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Blood+Libel%22+apartheid&btnG=Search You will also certainly find adequate material for citation. If you or others don't remove the citation tag or provide a specific reliable source citation in the near future, I will try to do it myself. Doright 22:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe that mentions of blood libel belong in the lead. Let's put them in the article though if they're appropriate and it's not OR.-- Urthogie 00:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it might be helpful to consider Horowitz's statement: "When hundreds of millions of Muslims are calling for the extermination of the Jews of Israel this is more than a lie; it is a blood libel"...
I'm afraid it's Horowitz who is committing a libel here. When is the last time that "hundreds of millions of Muslims" called for "the extermination of the Jews of Israel"? I'd be interested to know.
I don't have any reason to believe that looking at the charge of Israeli apartheid as similar to a blood libel is considered extreme among those who oppose the apartheid allegation.
You may not have "any reasons to believe" it, but you don't have any proof of it either. Wiki isn't a soapbox for your personal beliefs, it's an encyclopedic project based on reliable, documented sources. It may be true that some critics of the apartheid analogy have likened it to blood libel, but there's no evidence that the majority have done so. Therefore this hyperbolic claim does not belong in the introduction.
Perhaps Horowitz's comments could be included elsewhere, but quite frankly I think this hysterical, partisan screed of his contributes nothing to the debate and that any space devoted to it would be better given over to more sober critics. Gatoclass 10:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Gatoclass, Isn't your statement that Horowitz himself is committing a kind of libel against Muslims an assertion of your own opinion and original research? Since the subject of this article is Allegations of Israeli apartheid, not allegations of Islamic genocide. It seems to be a strawman in any case. That you think his view is "hysterical," "partisan," and "contributes nothing to the debate" is helpful to know, but can not be determinative. The simple fact is that he among the most notable people that reject the allegation and this is how he frames the debate. Since you raised the issue, I respectfully suggest that you read what you wrote about Wiki not being a soapbox and examine the extent to which the innuendo applies to yourself. Let's continue focusing on content, not each other. Doright 20:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think andy already knows that we don't yet have consensus in regard to where the criticisms should be or how adam and moodley should be placed in the overview. Thus, I'd like it if andy would participate more thoroughly on the talk page before removing every single change I make. I've consistently explained my logic here so I only think it's fair he does the same if he plans to make such major edits. And this doesn't mean stating ones case then closing discussion. It means an ongoing discussion before he makes such changes.
Let me state my case for the criticisms briefly, once again. The criticisms should be both specific and general for two reasons:
Thank you, -- Urthogie 15:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
This is how things are done at other articles
Not in the articles I'm more familiar with. I see no reason why the critics should get two bites at the cherry, one after every opponent and then another whole section all to themselves. That is not the way to create balance.
Not only that, but it's not the way to create clarity either. Jerking the reader back and forth constantly between affirmations and denials can only serve to confuse him or her. I say let the two sides of the debate be set out clearly on each side, one after the other, so that the reader can absorb each side of the argument in turn and come to his own conclusion. Gatoclass 17:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not a "synthesis" to simply organize a list of criticisms in a logical way. Indeed one could hardly write effective articles without such organization. One of the main differences between good articles and bad ones is their level of organization, I'm sure even you would have trouble disagreeing with that. Gatoclass 01:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Andy, I've kept most of your edits, but this is one point I must insist on. Adam and Moodley give the best overview, so they're prominent in the overview section. Hell, we even made them the secondary paragraph. The article should be moved to something like human rights of palestinians under israeli occupation, see below talk page section.-- Urthogie 13:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know who's bright idea it is to float an awkward sentence fragment;
Allegations of apartheid have been made against many countries.
on line one of the lead, but it looks atrocious. Along with the other content that Urothgie keeps unilaterally deleting, and with the latest (5th?) AfD, it looks like this article is seeing yet another POV assault. Tarc 17:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Doright added that. Real-world critics of the analogy argue that Israel is being "singled out." Doright and other Wikipedians critical of the analogy argue the exact opposite, that "allegations of apartheid have been made against many countries." They've created an article as a showcase for that original synthesis, which is then repeated everywhere but sourced to nobody (hence the opener judiciously removed by Tarc). It is full of bottom-barrel google-scrapings, many of which simply misrepresent any rhetorical invocation as an allegation. So when Desmond Tutu tells the Tibetans that they too are on the "winning side," this is distorted into an "allegation of apartheid" against China. The whole ridiculous article (which is rife with this sort of garbage) is an OR-concocted rebuttal of this one masquerading as its "parent," in order to justify the POV-pushing infobox at the top of the page.-- G-Dett 18:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in hearing the answer to this. It seems like editors are going to ridiculous lengths to avoid an indepth discussion of Carter's allegation, even to the point of putting a far-left anti-Zionist into the criticism section! This to me shows the inherent contradiction of trying to group all the criticisms together-- they don't form a concrete whole when the specific criticisms are grouped with the general ones. -- Urthogie 17:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
If there is such a commonality do all agree it should be among the first sentences of the article? Do they frame the allegation as a calumny? If so, within this framework, who is the calumny against? And to who and what do they attribute this calumny to? These are a few of the questions that I have. Doright 21:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is the current version from the introductory sentences that frame the debate: Those who reject the analogy argue that it is political slander intended to malign Israel by singling it out. They say that legitimate Israeli security needs justify the practices that prompt the analogy, and argue that the practices of many other countries, to which the term is not applied, more closely resemble South African apartheid.
Here are some of the first problems I see with the above version: The way its written suggest that their argument is that since other nations are engaging in apartheid, it is unfair to "single out" Israel for doing the same. Thus, instead of representing the other side of the debate, it has the opposition conceding the premise. It then goes on to claim that it is "Israeli practices that prompt" the allegation. Again, this may be the viewpoint of some of those that make the allegation. However, isn't it the case that the dominant view among those that reject the allegation is that it is something other than "Israeli practices" that prompt the allegation? Doright 21:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Very nice little analyis Doright. But before you start parsing the nuances, how about acknowledging the basic fact that this intro contains three arguments against use of the analogy and not a single one in favour of it? Gatoclass 08:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)