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ArchiveĀ 20 | ArchiveĀ 21 | ArchiveĀ 22 | ArchiveĀ 23 | ArchiveĀ 24 | ArchiveĀ 25 | ā | ArchiveĀ 30 |
add one citizen of Kazakhstan to the number of victims among foreigners and persons with dual citizenship. Ref: inform, adyrna, kt ŠŃŃŠ°ŃŃŠ»Š» ( talk) 06:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
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Undo the unreasonable removal of content by Abo Yemen here Chafique ( talk) 14:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
James James Morrison Morrison, youāve added multiple pov section tags, can you explain them here please? nableezy - 06:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
"War crimes are war crimes, even when committed by allies"
https://www.politico.eu/article/paddy-cosgrave-web-summit-ceo-europe-tech-conference-resign-israel-hamas-comment/ Chafique ( talk) 13:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
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Undo the unreasonable removal of content by Abo Yemen here Chafique ( talk) 14:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
A new report by Axios [1] states that U.S. has sent a three star general and several other U.S. military officers to Israel "to help advise the Israeli military's leadership in its ground operation in Gaza." Additionally, it was reported on Friday that a U.S. Navy destroyer had intercepted a Houthi cruise missile over the Red Sea [2] which was potentially headed towards Israel. In light of these developments, notably the first one, it might be time to place U.S. in the belligerents section of the infobox. Ecrusized ( talk) 17:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Additionally, U.S. is reported to have delivered 45 cargo planes loaded with armaments to Israel since the outbreak of hostilities. [3] Although this is more of a support factor rather than active involvement in the conflict. Ecrusized ( talk) 17:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
"Iran backs the group [Hamas], providing it with funding, weapons and training." BBC Putting that one in next? And then maybe Qatar... Selfstudier ( talk) 18:28, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the United States be added to the infobox as a belligerent?
The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 16:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Previous discussions: Talk:2023 IsraelāHamas war/Archive 21, Talk:2023 IsraelāHamas war/Archive 14
The belligerents section has Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, yet the units involved section doesn't. I believe it should be changed so the belligerents section has Fatah instead of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (since Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade is part of Fatah), and the units involved section then has Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, as was done with Hamas & Al-Qassam brigades. Alikersantti ( talk) 10:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
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"The same day, Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen stated, 'How can you agree to a cease-fire with someone who swore to kill and destroy your own existence?'"
We have the wrong link to Eli Cohen. The correct Eli Cohen is this one. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:F878:1521:972F:9E26 ( talk) 12:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Q. Why does the conflict name use a political party for one side and a country for the other? A. That's what the press does. But this is an encyclopedia not merely a repeater of spin. Discuss here whether we should add a paragraph (or section) pointing out that the parties involved are Likud and Hamas and that they represent Israel and Gaza, respectively. I support. ā QuantlingĀ ( talkĀ |Ā contribs) 23:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Please add a map to the article
91.210.248.223 ( talk) 00:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Suprise attack by hamas on Israel was done with the guide of Iran.
The war also involves Hizzbolla - an Iranian proxy and Iranian miltias in Syria.
Also adding the missle attack by the Houtis in Yemen - another Iranian proxy aimed on Israel.
there is also the case of Iraqi Millitias also guided by Iran attacking US bases in Iraq, because of US support of Israel.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/iran-israel-hamas-strike-planning-bbe07b25 46.121.27.170 ( talk) 10:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Under the strength section it describes 2500 Hamas militants infiltrated Israel, implying that they are still within Israel right now, it is entirely likely they would have retreated back into Gaza by now. The source for this claim is from the 13th and it should either be confirmed and the source should be changed, or it should be removed Hexifi ( talk) 01:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
UK PM Rishi Sunak's name is misspelled under the "in opposition" subheading of the "ceasefire" heading. Should be corrected & linked to the correct article (not the mispelling redirect). SSR07 ( talk) 03:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Israeli casualties still at 1400? We need more updates RickyBlair668 ( talk) 18:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
This article has plenty of Palestinian massacres giving a one-sided impression that the only side that is making any crime are Palestinians. So far more than 6000 have been killed in Gaza, including more than 2000 children. Strikes have been proven to target bakeries, supermarkets, and probably hospitals.
I can't fathom that none of these are considered massacres. Airstrike sounds a much neutral benign word than massacre, and yet Airstrikes are much deadler than anything Hamas or other militants did. Airstrikes burn victims and cause very high collateral damage, not to mention the trauma that follows a small child who witnesses one. We can see a lot of videos of children shaking, those children will most likely spend their lives in a psychiatric institution. We need to uphold Wikipedia values and make this article a little more unbiased. Classicalguss ( talk) 22:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I agree, airstrikes kill civilians and it's bad. There is clearly a difference between that and killing 20% of the population of an entire Kibbutz, deliberately targeting civilians (no disagreement between the parties there, other than Hamas doesn't see them as civilians).
There is clearly a difference between that and killing 20% of the population of an entire KibbutSorry Chuckstablers, but do you rate this by a percentage of the entire population of Israel vs. Palestine, a city, a neighborhood, a Kibbutz, a family. One Palestinian family lost 19 family members. I don't think percentage is a meaningful measurement in general. Thousands of Palestinian children are dead.
Hamas doesn't see them as civilians. Israel's defense minister said āThere will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closedā and āWe are fighting human animals". You can say he was talking about Hamas. But, the electricity, food, and fuel affects 2.2 million Palestinians, which includes about one million children. So it seems Hamas doesn't see them as civilians, and the IDF thinks Palestinians are animals.
we know that hamas liedAll sides lie. Look, in no way am I trying to belittle the massacre of Israelis or excuse Hamas. But, to me, your post sounds insensitive to the overall suffering. And we do need to solve the problem that the media use different terms for different sides and keep the article balanced within our policies. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 21:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
There has been several minor content disputes surrounding this battle's topic, so a discussion is needed to once and for all clear up it. In a previous (now archived) talk page discussion, the situation was described previously: Talk:2023 Hamas attack on Israel/Archive 1#Ongoing?. In short, sources state Bahad 4, an Israeli military base was captured by Hamas during the Battle of Zikim. No source that I am aware of claims Bahad 4 was directly recaptured by Israel, and sources (all the way to October 16) indicated fighting was still ongoing - See battle article for further details on the various clashes.
Here is the main issues at hand: (1) Does the Battle of Zikim count as a battle of Operation Al-Aqsa Flood? (2.1) If yes, is the operation still ongoing? (2.2) If no, did Hamas "win" the battle? Right now, to not violate WP:OR or WP:SYNTH territory, we need a source directly stating the battle ended to say the battle ended and who won. Just a few minutes ago, two editors The Great Mule of Eupatoria and BilledMammal disagreed on this exact topic, without actually realizing it. Their disagreement was on whether or not Israel recaptured all (key word) territory. Sources say yes, but no source has actually point blank said Bahad 4 was recaptured and sources (post the supposed 9 October recapture of all territory) indicate fighting was at least ongoing there until 16 October - See battle Wiki article for info & sources.
So, can we either have a discussion about how to handle the situation or can someone locate a source specifically stating whether or not the Battle of Zikim ended? The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 06:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Sources say yes, but no source has actually point blank said Bahad 4 was recapturedIf sources say that all Israeli territory was recaptured, and sources say that Bahad 4 is Israeli territory, then I don't believe it is WP:OR to say that Bahad 4 was recaptured. BilledMammal ( talk) 06:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
...the death of the four fighters signaled the first āsuccessfulā incursion by terrorists at Zikim. Itās still not clear why the attackers did not exploit the opportunity to take over all the positions at the base.. Shay thinks they were exhausted and concluded the battle with seriously diminished forces. However, in one case at least a terrorist succeeded in penetrating Zikim.
A US special force and an Israeli special ops unit that entered Gaza ācompletely wiped outā https://www.palestinechronicle.com/shot-to-pieces-this-is-what-happened-to-us-special-forces-when-they-entered-gaza/
The U.S is now on the ground albeit not very effective as of now. We know, through the words of Douglas Mcgregor that a combined American-Israeli military unit entered Gaza and were subsequently wiped out, presumably killed and captured. We should really consider adding the U.S to the list of belligerents especially after sustaining 30+ injuries to attacks by the āIslamic Resistance of Iraqā
Alongside U.S involvement, we should also add this new āIslamic Resistance of Iraqā faction and as more information and articles surface, we can vastly improve this article.
A.H.T Videomapping (
talk) 23:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The sentence "Both Israel and the U.S stated that there is no concrete evidence of Iran's involvement, and Iran has denied any role in the attack" is the first time Iran is mentioned in the article. This sentence only makes sense in the context of the lead if the reader understands that there is some Hamas-Iran connection or that people suspect Iran could have been involved in this. The uninformed reader may not understand that sentence. It would be perhaps be wise to preface the sentence with something like "Despite suspicions of Iranian involvement...." 2001:569:57B2:4D00:A166:EBF0:164A:52EF ( talk) 06:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
@ RamHez: SOHR is considered generally reliable in articles related to Syrian civil war. It is preferred over Syrian government sources who tend to shrink their casualties. Ecrusized ( talk) 08:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
BilledMammal, you know your edit was challenged, you know there is no consensus for it, why are you returning it? nableezy - 04:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.I'm not aware of any consensus to include casualties in the infobox without inline attribution; if I am incorrect, can you please link it? BilledMammal ( talk) 09:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The fact that we include the numbers and have done so uncontroversially from the start means there is consensus for that.With inline attribution for most of the first week, and with disagreement both in the article and on the talk page regarding how to attribute throughout the existence of the article.
At any rate, the decision is not just down to one editor.Which is why I am proposing a conservative interim measure while we hold an RfC; there is no harm done if we attribute unnecessarily - but there is significant harm done if we don't attribute when we needed to. BilledMammal ( talk) 12:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
the responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.BilledMammal ( talk) 13:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Nope, ignores WP:QUO and the prior consensus.If this is the status quo. Which is why I was asking Nableezy to demonstrate that this it is; to say how long that they believe is sufficient to establish stability. At the moment it's quite indisputable that it was not stable between the two diffs they provided. BilledMammal ( talk) 13:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I have a better idea, since we have WAPO OC 24 saying "The partial exception is the database of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), which checks both Gazan and Israeli numbers with at least one other source, according to its website. This takes time, however, and OCHA has not updated its database with tolls from the current war." and since this is what started all this fruitless debate, OCHA is the best source, we should just use it, since that is where all the RS are in effect getting their info already. Selfstudier ( talk) 12:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
according to the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza,
according to the MoH in Gaza,
according to Israeli official sources. If I have understood correctly, the OCHA has not yet been able to check
both Gazan and Israeli numbers with at least one other source. BilledMammal ( talk) 13:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I started an RFC below. nableezy - 13:22, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
@ Tamjeed Ahmed, concerning 2023 IsraelāHamas war: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia, the source used as a reference identifies only verbal support and discusses the positioning of US military assets in the region. I don't think this meets the expectations arising from identifying the US as a supporter under belligerents in the info box. There are many other verbal supporters of both sides that aren't similarly identified. Bsherr ( talk) 18:50, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The current source for Palestinian civilian deaths originates from the Hamas run Gaza health ministry of health. given their history of exaggeration and that the number of casualties is in dispute we should find an alternate source or at least put a "per Hamas" tag on it YEEETER0 ( talk) 20:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
There is an RFC about this below, so this discussion has kinda been superceded . Selfstudier ( talk) 16:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Should there be a subsection for war crimes committed during this conflict, or is there already one? Iminyourwalls72 ( talk) 17:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Unbiased Admins/Editors Please take a look into this and add this information in appropriate sections ,if relevant to the topic:
1.) IDF Officer is Told by Gazan How Hamas Prevents Civilian Evacuations: . Total causalities claimed by Hamas-run gaza health ministry may not be just the result of Israeli's strikes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaK4muqkRBE
'2.) Recorded: Hamas Millitants Calls Father With Murdered Woman's Phone to Celebrate The Oct. 7' Massacre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bACNYtaLBQI
3.)Hamas Kids Training Camps:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qOZCxvmNg
(Edit requests like these are archived in Wikipedia very soon so also keep an eye on that) Mindhack diva ( talk) 19:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Please correct the table:
Country | Deaths | Kidnapped | Missing | Ref. |
---|---|---|---|---|
Ā Ukraine | 24 [a] | Unknown | 1 | [1] |
91.210.248.223 ( talk) 12:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
It is also interesting how the table shows people with multiple citizenships? āĀ Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.210.248.223 ( talk) 12:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
References
As many countries are showcasing solidarity with gaza,their should be a section(or atleast a mention) for countries who are ready to take in gaza refugees/displaced people. i only came accross scotland: Humza Yousaf, the First Minister of Scotland, has offered to welcome refugees from Gaza and treat wounded civilians in Scottish hospitals.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2023/10/17/scotlands-first-minister-humza-yousaf-says-uk-should-offer-sanctuary-for-gaza-refugees/
https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/world/story/willing-to-be-a-place-of-sanctuary-scotland-first-minister-says-ready-to-welcome-gaza-refugees-402497-2023-10-18 Mindhack diva ( talk) 01:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Just FYI for other editors that want to fix, not for more discussion, since these talk sections were recently archived and not fully resolved:
JJMM ( talk) 08:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
censors
Baratiiman ( talk) 10:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
The Egyptian towns of Taba and Nuweiba near Israel were hit by projectiles this morning. [10] Last week, U.S. Navy [11] and Saudi Arabia [12] had reportedly intercepted 4 missiles and 50 drones fired by Houthis at the southern Israeli city of Eilat.[ [13]] Ecrusized ( talk) 11:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
References
Tareq S. Haijaj, They let humanitarian aid in. Then they bombed it so that Gaza would starve. Mondoweiss 26 October 2023 Nishidani ( talk) 13:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Not a fan of the vertical bar chart look, though it's good that both chart were merged into one. Could we try a horizontal mirror bar chart, like L'Orient Today? We can't use theirs, per copyright, but we can use the same general design, and it would show the difference much more clearly. (Keep in mind that L'Orient Today's chart is outdated and missing many recent Palestinian deaths.)
Pinging ARandomName123 and Timeshifter since you were involved in current and previous incarnations of the graph. DFlhb ( talk) 09:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 IsraelāHamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please revert āHundreds of civilian hostages, including women, children and the elderly, were abducted and taken to the Gaza Stripā to āUnarmed civilian hostages and captured Israeli soldiers were taken to the Gaza Strip, including women and children.ā
The new wording, based on this revision adds no new information or sources, is not compellingly justified by the editor who made the change, raises NPOV issues, and is misleading, as RS are reporting that soldiers were also captured:
Additional sources are found in the discussion of the previous wording, which was discussed and agreed to by various users. As well, the sources cited for the current phrasing donāt suggest that the āhundredsā of āhostagesā were or are all civilians:
As it stands, a reader who only sees the lead and the infobox would not know that there are any Israeli POWs. How can this be? WillowCity ( talk) 21:55, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
The document hasn't been translated yet but it seems better to cite the public document than a newspaper article talking about the document. Oshaboy2 ( talk) 15:50, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
The article statesĀ :
Source talks aboutĀ :
RadXman ( talk) 07:15, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
In the infobox under the h note there are 3 PIJ and 3 Hamas fighters listed along the Hezbollah fighters and civilians, and I ask why? In the sources I've only found they've been murdered close to Lebanon but not that they are lebanese, so why include them there and not in the "Murdered in Israel" group of dead? Imagemafia ( talk) 16:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/internet-blackout-hits-gaza-israel-ramps-strikes-rcna122531 102.45.250.20 ( talk) 18:56, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Please add an explanation in the infobox about the over 40 percent of Palestinian deaths being children, which explains the extremely low median age of the Gaza Strip population ( 16-17 years old). Otherwise, one gets the impression that Israel is specifically bombing children. 91.210.248.223 ( talk) 15:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
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Change article title from 2023 Israel-Hamas War to 2023 Palestinian Genocide Elsliquor ( talk) 20:29, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
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Add the Houthi movement on the left for the belligerents box. Sirswiss1 ( talk) 20:38, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
According to Kyiv Post In reaction to Hamas' attacks, the IDF is deploying its new Iron Beam anti-missile system ahead of its originally planned schedule. "I'm unsure where to drop this info? Where's the spot for deets on the weapon systems both sides are using? Infinity Knight ( talk) 13:50, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <refĀ group=lower-alpha>
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ArchiveĀ 20 | ArchiveĀ 21 | ArchiveĀ 22 | ArchiveĀ 23 | ArchiveĀ 24 | ArchiveĀ 25 | ā | ArchiveĀ 30 |
add one citizen of Kazakhstan to the number of victims among foreigners and persons with dual citizenship. Ref: inform, adyrna, kt ŠŃŃŠ°ŃŃŠ»Š» ( talk) 06:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
This
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2023 IsraelāHamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Undo the unreasonable removal of content by Abo Yemen here Chafique ( talk) 14:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
James James Morrison Morrison, youāve added multiple pov section tags, can you explain them here please? nableezy - 06:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
"War crimes are war crimes, even when committed by allies"
https://www.politico.eu/article/paddy-cosgrave-web-summit-ceo-europe-tech-conference-resign-israel-hamas-comment/ Chafique ( talk) 13:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 IsraelāHamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Undo the unreasonable removal of content by Abo Yemen here Chafique ( talk) 14:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
A new report by Axios [1] states that U.S. has sent a three star general and several other U.S. military officers to Israel "to help advise the Israeli military's leadership in its ground operation in Gaza." Additionally, it was reported on Friday that a U.S. Navy destroyer had intercepted a Houthi cruise missile over the Red Sea [2] which was potentially headed towards Israel. In light of these developments, notably the first one, it might be time to place U.S. in the belligerents section of the infobox. Ecrusized ( talk) 17:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Additionally, U.S. is reported to have delivered 45 cargo planes loaded with armaments to Israel since the outbreak of hostilities. [3] Although this is more of a support factor rather than active involvement in the conflict. Ecrusized ( talk) 17:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
"Iran backs the group [Hamas], providing it with funding, weapons and training." BBC Putting that one in next? And then maybe Qatar... Selfstudier ( talk) 18:28, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the United States be added to the infobox as a belligerent?
The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 16:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Previous discussions: Talk:2023 IsraelāHamas war/Archive 21, Talk:2023 IsraelāHamas war/Archive 14
The belligerents section has Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, yet the units involved section doesn't. I believe it should be changed so the belligerents section has Fatah instead of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (since Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade is part of Fatah), and the units involved section then has Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, as was done with Hamas & Al-Qassam brigades. Alikersantti ( talk) 10:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 IsraelāHamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"The same day, Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen stated, 'How can you agree to a cease-fire with someone who swore to kill and destroy your own existence?'"
We have the wrong link to Eli Cohen. The correct Eli Cohen is this one. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:F878:1521:972F:9E26 ( talk) 12:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Q. Why does the conflict name use a political party for one side and a country for the other? A. That's what the press does. But this is an encyclopedia not merely a repeater of spin. Discuss here whether we should add a paragraph (or section) pointing out that the parties involved are Likud and Hamas and that they represent Israel and Gaza, respectively. I support. ā QuantlingĀ ( talkĀ |Ā contribs) 23:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Please add a map to the article
91.210.248.223 ( talk) 00:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Suprise attack by hamas on Israel was done with the guide of Iran.
The war also involves Hizzbolla - an Iranian proxy and Iranian miltias in Syria.
Also adding the missle attack by the Houtis in Yemen - another Iranian proxy aimed on Israel.
there is also the case of Iraqi Millitias also guided by Iran attacking US bases in Iraq, because of US support of Israel.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/iran-israel-hamas-strike-planning-bbe07b25 46.121.27.170 ( talk) 10:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Under the strength section it describes 2500 Hamas militants infiltrated Israel, implying that they are still within Israel right now, it is entirely likely they would have retreated back into Gaza by now. The source for this claim is from the 13th and it should either be confirmed and the source should be changed, or it should be removed Hexifi ( talk) 01:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
UK PM Rishi Sunak's name is misspelled under the "in opposition" subheading of the "ceasefire" heading. Should be corrected & linked to the correct article (not the mispelling redirect). SSR07 ( talk) 03:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Israeli casualties still at 1400? We need more updates RickyBlair668 ( talk) 18:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
This article has plenty of Palestinian massacres giving a one-sided impression that the only side that is making any crime are Palestinians. So far more than 6000 have been killed in Gaza, including more than 2000 children. Strikes have been proven to target bakeries, supermarkets, and probably hospitals.
I can't fathom that none of these are considered massacres. Airstrike sounds a much neutral benign word than massacre, and yet Airstrikes are much deadler than anything Hamas or other militants did. Airstrikes burn victims and cause very high collateral damage, not to mention the trauma that follows a small child who witnesses one. We can see a lot of videos of children shaking, those children will most likely spend their lives in a psychiatric institution. We need to uphold Wikipedia values and make this article a little more unbiased. Classicalguss ( talk) 22:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I agree, airstrikes kill civilians and it's bad. There is clearly a difference between that and killing 20% of the population of an entire Kibbutz, deliberately targeting civilians (no disagreement between the parties there, other than Hamas doesn't see them as civilians).
There is clearly a difference between that and killing 20% of the population of an entire KibbutSorry Chuckstablers, but do you rate this by a percentage of the entire population of Israel vs. Palestine, a city, a neighborhood, a Kibbutz, a family. One Palestinian family lost 19 family members. I don't think percentage is a meaningful measurement in general. Thousands of Palestinian children are dead.
Hamas doesn't see them as civilians. Israel's defense minister said āThere will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closedā and āWe are fighting human animals". You can say he was talking about Hamas. But, the electricity, food, and fuel affects 2.2 million Palestinians, which includes about one million children. So it seems Hamas doesn't see them as civilians, and the IDF thinks Palestinians are animals.
we know that hamas liedAll sides lie. Look, in no way am I trying to belittle the massacre of Israelis or excuse Hamas. But, to me, your post sounds insensitive to the overall suffering. And we do need to solve the problem that the media use different terms for different sides and keep the article balanced within our policies. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 21:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
There has been several minor content disputes surrounding this battle's topic, so a discussion is needed to once and for all clear up it. In a previous (now archived) talk page discussion, the situation was described previously: Talk:2023 Hamas attack on Israel/Archive 1#Ongoing?. In short, sources state Bahad 4, an Israeli military base was captured by Hamas during the Battle of Zikim. No source that I am aware of claims Bahad 4 was directly recaptured by Israel, and sources (all the way to October 16) indicated fighting was still ongoing - See battle article for further details on the various clashes.
Here is the main issues at hand: (1) Does the Battle of Zikim count as a battle of Operation Al-Aqsa Flood? (2.1) If yes, is the operation still ongoing? (2.2) If no, did Hamas "win" the battle? Right now, to not violate WP:OR or WP:SYNTH territory, we need a source directly stating the battle ended to say the battle ended and who won. Just a few minutes ago, two editors The Great Mule of Eupatoria and BilledMammal disagreed on this exact topic, without actually realizing it. Their disagreement was on whether or not Israel recaptured all (key word) territory. Sources say yes, but no source has actually point blank said Bahad 4 was recaptured and sources (post the supposed 9 October recapture of all territory) indicate fighting was at least ongoing there until 16 October - See battle Wiki article for info & sources.
So, can we either have a discussion about how to handle the situation or can someone locate a source specifically stating whether or not the Battle of Zikim ended? The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 06:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Sources say yes, but no source has actually point blank said Bahad 4 was recapturedIf sources say that all Israeli territory was recaptured, and sources say that Bahad 4 is Israeli territory, then I don't believe it is WP:OR to say that Bahad 4 was recaptured. BilledMammal ( talk) 06:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
...the death of the four fighters signaled the first āsuccessfulā incursion by terrorists at Zikim. Itās still not clear why the attackers did not exploit the opportunity to take over all the positions at the base.. Shay thinks they were exhausted and concluded the battle with seriously diminished forces. However, in one case at least a terrorist succeeded in penetrating Zikim.
A US special force and an Israeli special ops unit that entered Gaza ācompletely wiped outā https://www.palestinechronicle.com/shot-to-pieces-this-is-what-happened-to-us-special-forces-when-they-entered-gaza/
The U.S is now on the ground albeit not very effective as of now. We know, through the words of Douglas Mcgregor that a combined American-Israeli military unit entered Gaza and were subsequently wiped out, presumably killed and captured. We should really consider adding the U.S to the list of belligerents especially after sustaining 30+ injuries to attacks by the āIslamic Resistance of Iraqā
Alongside U.S involvement, we should also add this new āIslamic Resistance of Iraqā faction and as more information and articles surface, we can vastly improve this article.
A.H.T Videomapping (
talk) 23:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The sentence "Both Israel and the U.S stated that there is no concrete evidence of Iran's involvement, and Iran has denied any role in the attack" is the first time Iran is mentioned in the article. This sentence only makes sense in the context of the lead if the reader understands that there is some Hamas-Iran connection or that people suspect Iran could have been involved in this. The uninformed reader may not understand that sentence. It would be perhaps be wise to preface the sentence with something like "Despite suspicions of Iranian involvement...." 2001:569:57B2:4D00:A166:EBF0:164A:52EF ( talk) 06:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
@ RamHez: SOHR is considered generally reliable in articles related to Syrian civil war. It is preferred over Syrian government sources who tend to shrink their casualties. Ecrusized ( talk) 08:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
BilledMammal, you know your edit was challenged, you know there is no consensus for it, why are you returning it? nableezy - 04:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.I'm not aware of any consensus to include casualties in the infobox without inline attribution; if I am incorrect, can you please link it? BilledMammal ( talk) 09:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The fact that we include the numbers and have done so uncontroversially from the start means there is consensus for that.With inline attribution for most of the first week, and with disagreement both in the article and on the talk page regarding how to attribute throughout the existence of the article.
At any rate, the decision is not just down to one editor.Which is why I am proposing a conservative interim measure while we hold an RfC; there is no harm done if we attribute unnecessarily - but there is significant harm done if we don't attribute when we needed to. BilledMammal ( talk) 12:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
the responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.BilledMammal ( talk) 13:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Nope, ignores WP:QUO and the prior consensus.If this is the status quo. Which is why I was asking Nableezy to demonstrate that this it is; to say how long that they believe is sufficient to establish stability. At the moment it's quite indisputable that it was not stable between the two diffs they provided. BilledMammal ( talk) 13:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I have a better idea, since we have WAPO OC 24 saying "The partial exception is the database of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), which checks both Gazan and Israeli numbers with at least one other source, according to its website. This takes time, however, and OCHA has not updated its database with tolls from the current war." and since this is what started all this fruitless debate, OCHA is the best source, we should just use it, since that is where all the RS are in effect getting their info already. Selfstudier ( talk) 12:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
according to the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza,
according to the MoH in Gaza,
according to Israeli official sources. If I have understood correctly, the OCHA has not yet been able to check
both Gazan and Israeli numbers with at least one other source. BilledMammal ( talk) 13:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I started an RFC below. nableezy - 13:22, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
@ Tamjeed Ahmed, concerning 2023 IsraelāHamas war: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia, the source used as a reference identifies only verbal support and discusses the positioning of US military assets in the region. I don't think this meets the expectations arising from identifying the US as a supporter under belligerents in the info box. There are many other verbal supporters of both sides that aren't similarly identified. Bsherr ( talk) 18:50, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The current source for Palestinian civilian deaths originates from the Hamas run Gaza health ministry of health. given their history of exaggeration and that the number of casualties is in dispute we should find an alternate source or at least put a "per Hamas" tag on it YEEETER0 ( talk) 20:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
There is an RFC about this below, so this discussion has kinda been superceded . Selfstudier ( talk) 16:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Should there be a subsection for war crimes committed during this conflict, or is there already one? Iminyourwalls72 ( talk) 17:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Unbiased Admins/Editors Please take a look into this and add this information in appropriate sections ,if relevant to the topic:
1.) IDF Officer is Told by Gazan How Hamas Prevents Civilian Evacuations: . Total causalities claimed by Hamas-run gaza health ministry may not be just the result of Israeli's strikes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaK4muqkRBE
'2.) Recorded: Hamas Millitants Calls Father With Murdered Woman's Phone to Celebrate The Oct. 7' Massacre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bACNYtaLBQI
3.)Hamas Kids Training Camps:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qOZCxvmNg
(Edit requests like these are archived in Wikipedia very soon so also keep an eye on that) Mindhack diva ( talk) 19:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Please correct the table:
Country | Deaths | Kidnapped | Missing | Ref. |
---|---|---|---|---|
Ā Ukraine | 24 [a] | Unknown | 1 | [1] |
91.210.248.223 ( talk) 12:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
It is also interesting how the table shows people with multiple citizenships? āĀ Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.210.248.223 ( talk) 12:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
References
As many countries are showcasing solidarity with gaza,their should be a section(or atleast a mention) for countries who are ready to take in gaza refugees/displaced people. i only came accross scotland: Humza Yousaf, the First Minister of Scotland, has offered to welcome refugees from Gaza and treat wounded civilians in Scottish hospitals.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2023/10/17/scotlands-first-minister-humza-yousaf-says-uk-should-offer-sanctuary-for-gaza-refugees/
https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/world/story/willing-to-be-a-place-of-sanctuary-scotland-first-minister-says-ready-to-welcome-gaza-refugees-402497-2023-10-18 Mindhack diva ( talk) 01:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Just FYI for other editors that want to fix, not for more discussion, since these talk sections were recently archived and not fully resolved:
JJMM ( talk) 08:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
censors
Baratiiman ( talk) 10:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
The Egyptian towns of Taba and Nuweiba near Israel were hit by projectiles this morning. [10] Last week, U.S. Navy [11] and Saudi Arabia [12] had reportedly intercepted 4 missiles and 50 drones fired by Houthis at the southern Israeli city of Eilat.[ [13]] Ecrusized ( talk) 11:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
References
Tareq S. Haijaj, They let humanitarian aid in. Then they bombed it so that Gaza would starve. Mondoweiss 26 October 2023 Nishidani ( talk) 13:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Not a fan of the vertical bar chart look, though it's good that both chart were merged into one. Could we try a horizontal mirror bar chart, like L'Orient Today? We can't use theirs, per copyright, but we can use the same general design, and it would show the difference much more clearly. (Keep in mind that L'Orient Today's chart is outdated and missing many recent Palestinian deaths.)
Pinging ARandomName123 and Timeshifter since you were involved in current and previous incarnations of the graph. DFlhb ( talk) 09:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 IsraelāHamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please revert āHundreds of civilian hostages, including women, children and the elderly, were abducted and taken to the Gaza Stripā to āUnarmed civilian hostages and captured Israeli soldiers were taken to the Gaza Strip, including women and children.ā
The new wording, based on this revision adds no new information or sources, is not compellingly justified by the editor who made the change, raises NPOV issues, and is misleading, as RS are reporting that soldiers were also captured:
Additional sources are found in the discussion of the previous wording, which was discussed and agreed to by various users. As well, the sources cited for the current phrasing donāt suggest that the āhundredsā of āhostagesā were or are all civilians:
As it stands, a reader who only sees the lead and the infobox would not know that there are any Israeli POWs. How can this be? WillowCity ( talk) 21:55, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
The document hasn't been translated yet but it seems better to cite the public document than a newspaper article talking about the document. Oshaboy2 ( talk) 15:50, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
The article statesĀ :
Source talks aboutĀ :
RadXman ( talk) 07:15, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
In the infobox under the h note there are 3 PIJ and 3 Hamas fighters listed along the Hezbollah fighters and civilians, and I ask why? In the sources I've only found they've been murdered close to Lebanon but not that they are lebanese, so why include them there and not in the "Murdered in Israel" group of dead? Imagemafia ( talk) 16:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/internet-blackout-hits-gaza-israel-ramps-strikes-rcna122531 102.45.250.20 ( talk) 18:56, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Please add an explanation in the infobox about the over 40 percent of Palestinian deaths being children, which explains the extremely low median age of the Gaza Strip population ( 16-17 years old). Otherwise, one gets the impression that Israel is specifically bombing children. 91.210.248.223 ( talk) 15:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 IsraelāHamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change article title from 2023 Israel-Hamas War to 2023 Palestinian Genocide Elsliquor ( talk) 20:29, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 IsraelāHamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add the Houthi movement on the left for the belligerents box. Sirswiss1 ( talk) 20:38, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
According to Kyiv Post In reaction to Hamas' attacks, the IDF is deploying its new Iron Beam anti-missile system ahead of its originally planned schedule. "I'm unsure where to drop this info? Where's the spot for deets on the weapon systems both sides are using? Infinity Knight ( talk) 13:50, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
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