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As far as I know, there are 3 official languages in Israel: Hebrew, Arabic and English. According to the material which I've found in PC program "35 languages of the world (Berlitz): Hebrew is official language of Israel. Arabic is the second official language, English is also very common. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 231013-a ( talk • contribs) 06:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/isrlindx.htm
Israel, Palestine and the Occupied Territories
The question of Palestine and Israel has commanded the attention of the UN since the organization was founded. The UN General Assembly voted the original partition of the land in November 1947 and the UN deployed its first peacekeeping operation to monitor the ceasefire lines after the war of 1948. This site introduces readers to the key issues, with a special focus on UN involvement in the conflict. For many years, successive Israeli governments refused to consider a Palestinian state, while most Arabs denied the legitimacy of Israel. In the 1970s both sides began to recognize the need for compromise. The Palestinians proposed a separate state, claiming as their homeland the territories outside the 1948 ceasefire lines, territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 war. This idea found widespread support in the international community, and Israel was called on to withdraw from this land, as affirmed in UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
Israel's 1967 occupation of other territories complicated the matter. Israel seized Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and Syria's Golan Heights and set up settlements in both. Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 and maintained a long- term occupation in the southern part of the country. These wars and occupations were related to the Palestine question and deepened the political crisis surrounding it. Even after Israel eventually withdrew from Egypt and Lebanon, the Palestine (and Golan) occupations continued. Israel's settlement-building, and its construction of a massive border- wall that annexed large swaths of Palestinian territory, has made resolution of the conflict far more difficult.
Since resolutions 242 and 338, the Security Council has taken no significant steps to end the Israel-Palestine conflict. United States influence has generally kept the issue off the Council's agenda. When Council members have introduced resolutions, responding to periodic crises, the US has repeatedly used its veto on Israel's behalf. The General Assembly has taken a more active and creative role in the conflict, yet its resolutions are non-binding and have largely symbolic weight. Both bodies would have been more effective if governments had been willing to confront US displeasure and US pressure. Recent US policy has only made matters worse.
Key issues that have plagued the stalled "peace process" include: Israel's occupation, Israeli settlements and settlement-building, the Israeli wall, security for Israelis and Palestinians, shared sovereignty over Jerusalem, and the right of return of 3.7 million stateless Palestinian refugees.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/unindex.htm
UN Involvement
Though the Security Council has “primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security,” it has not been able to address and resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict. The Council has taken no significant action since 1967, when it passed Resolution 242 calling on Israel to relinquish the territories acquired during its war with Syria and Egypt. The United States has used its influence to keep the issue off the Council’s agenda and it has repeatedly used its veto power on Israel’s behalf. Council resolutions critical of Israel are almost certain to fail, irrespective of the will of other Council members and regardless of international law and the magnitude of Israel’s violations.
The General Assembly has taken a more active role in the conflict, repeatedly taking action and often calling on parties to respect human rights. In 1988, the Assembly took the unprecedented step of holding a special session in Geneva after the United States refused to grant Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat the visa needed to address the Assembly in New York. Israel accuses the General Assembly of having a “pro-Palestinian” bias. Yet the Assembly is unable to compel the parties to work towards peace since its resolutions only have moral and symbolic weight and are not legally binding. Both the Assembly and the Security Council could, of course, be more effective if governments were willing to risk the displeasure and pressure of the United States.
Frustrated by its own impotence and by the inaction of the Security Council, the General Assembly asked the International Court of Justice to evaluate the legal status of Israel’s “separation wall.” In July 2004, the Court declared the illegality of the barrier. The Security Council has yet to accept and enforce the Court’s ruling, however, and the United Nations remains sidelined in the conflict, acting primarily through the Secretary General's special envoys and through its role as a member of the “Quartet.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
UN, Red Cross curtail Gaza aid, criticize Israel
January 8, 2009
JERUSALEM – The U.N. and the Red Cross curtailed aid shipments in the Gaza Strip on Thursday after accusing Israeli forces of firing on their drivers, killing one. 18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC) 75.7.251.235 ( talk) U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle was marked with a U.N. flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza. 18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)~~ In Geneva, the international Red Cross said it would restrict its aid operations to Gaza City for at least one day after one of its convoys came under Israeli fire at the Netzarim crossing during the three-hour lull in fighting Thursday. One driver was lightly injured. 18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)~~ A Red Cross spokesman says rescuers had been refused permission by Israeli forces to reach the site for four days. It said the delay in allowing rescue services access was "unacceptable."
75.7.251.235 (
talk)
18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Please someone correct false information in "recent developments" section, which erroneusly reports that Hamas broke the ceasefire. Actually Hamas re-started hostilities against Israel only after the ceasefire was ended ( http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-12-18-hamas-declares-end-to-ceasefire-with-israel), while it was Israel who first broke the ceasefire back in november ( " http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians).-- Heartpox ( talk) 12:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
This is all meaningless and irrelevant, the ceasefire was invalid since day one, because it was supposed to involve opening passages to and from Gaza, and that didn't happen. The people in Gaza were starving and firing was from both sides. (J.A.W) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.227.29.88 ( talk) 10:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Do not concentrate on the HAMAS lanuching the rockets but look at the siege of GAZA for 2 years, no water, no food, no fuel, assasiantions of Hamas officials, killing of civilians during the ceasefire by Isreal, all border crossing being closed, Gaza nto ahving access to basic rights. Israle not complying wiht any of UN resolutions for the last 60 years. These all had a part to play!! If Israel went back to the 1967 borders, The two state solution would be achievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.70.117 ( talk) 11:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
CNN has also reported Israel broke the ceasefire. Here is an Israeli news source confirming Israel breaking the ceasefire: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050460.html "Six months ago Israel asked and received a cease-fire from Hamas. It unilaterally violated it when it blew up a tunnel, while still asking Egypt to get the Islamic group to hold its fire." Also, the way it is currently worded in the wiki article, it claims the ceasefire collapsed when Hamas shot rockets. The truth is the ceasefire already expired by then so how can Hamas cause the ceasefire to collapse? — Illxchild ( talk · contribs) 05:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The claim that the truce broke down in December is completely inaccurate. The ceasefire truce effectively ended in November the 3rd when Israel army killed six Hamas gunmen. That is the fact. Limited (1-2/month) mortar and rocket attacks were carried out from the Gaza strip during the months of ceasefire by other groups than Hamas and in occasions there were arrests by Hamas of people that carried out the attacks. Fact too. The above information is easily available in any mainstream media site on internet and therefore providing links is not required. Kkevreki ( talk) 00:49, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I suggest the whole piece about recent events is left out until things are cleared. Kkevreki ( talk) 09:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Why isn't there a good one, of the country and cities etc.? RomaC ( talk) 13:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
It has came to my attention that not many people know this but israel was not a official country until the end of World War II. Many people belive the greater picture of the war was to make Israel a official country. -- Jazz951 ( talk) 05:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
This is not a blog. This space is for discussion of the article. ShumDavar ( talk)
I've asked several people this, and no one seems to know, wouldn't it be smarted to use plain boring old BC and AD so that people actually know what the dates are??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.119.134 ( talk) 10:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Look it up.
Telaviv1 (
talk)
11:06, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
For two if you look in history no matter where you look you will see this as a religious related nation weather you like it or not... so i think it should be changed to BC and AD... you also have to remember that there is like 50-100 years between the two... Jazz951 ( talk) 06:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph, the sentence, "The West Bank and Gaza Strip are also adjacent," is unclear. On first read, it sounds like it is saying that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are adjacent to each other. I wonder if it would be better to either add the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the preceding list of neighbouring states with wording that distinguishes them as occupied territories rather than independent states, or to leave the preceding sentence as is and to revise this sentence to clarify that the the West Bank and Gaza Strip border Israel but are not adjacent to each other. This is my first discussion edit - I hope I did it right. Mhanmer ( talk) 02:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi MPerel. Nice revision - thanks. Mhanmer ( talk) 02:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
<< Isarel killed about 800 and injured over 3200 in 14 days offense on Gaza Strip between 2008/12/27-2009/01/09 about 50% of them are women and children under 16 years old. Isarel did not respond to UNSC resolution for immerditae cease-fire. Hamas fired rockets because of the siege that lasted about 18 month during 2007 & 2008. Only 6 Isarelies were killed in rockts attacks. This is not an openion, these are facts from news channels and newspaper articles quoting both sides...It is also dokumented in UNSC meetings regarding Gaza situation, that Israel targeted civilian and aid-worker. Both ICRC and UNRWA submitted official complaints about Isareli armed-forces targeting their operation and employees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.80.81 ( talk • contribs) 13:44, 9 January 2009
Please stop with going around calling anyone who you claim to be defaming the Zionist state as anti-semitic. One cannot be called a racist for defamation of the Zionist state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator ( talkwhat their • contribs) 05:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I think that criticism of Israel, can be of course not antisemitic, as well as criticism of Zionism. Even those who say that Israel has no right to exist,are not always antisemitic, like Gaddafi from Lubya, who says that there should be no Israel or Palestine, but one state for both Israelis an Palestinians. But when somebody justify Hamas firing rockets he is anti-Semitic. Hamas dont target military targets with this rockets, nor political, they don`t ask if somebody Zionist or not, they randomly target Israelis, and as they themselves say that their targets are Israeli Jews, and that Israeli Arabs, Muslim or Christians are not their enemy. So if somebody justify randomly killing Jews of Israel or any other country, they are without a doubt anti-Semitic, no matter justification is. Igorb2008 ( talk) 17:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
In the very beginning of the "History" section.
"The Land of Israel ... has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland;[22][23] scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[24]"
Chat's cool, people. I mean, that's really fantastic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FeelSunny ( talk • contribs) 16:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
"The United Nations and most countries do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital [1] and maintain their embassies in other cities such as Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, and Herzliya."
This information keeps being deleted by Okedem. I dont think it is trivia.-- Abuk78 ( talk) 12:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland should read as the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by their god, as their homeland as saying "by God" could be viewed as A) an acknowledgment of a higher power and B) recognition that their god is the only god....also capitalizing it as a proper noun insinuates as much by using it as a name. I would have changed it myself but apparently I can't edit this without an account and I'm lazy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.220.120 ( talk • contribs) 05:57, 16 January 2009
"Israel responded with a series of airstrikes.[99] In response, protests broke out around the world.[100]"
Is this neutral without mentioning the
later pro-Israeli rallies?
Squash Racket (
talk)
06:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
there were jaust as many pro israel protests as "pro-hamas" protests —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.38.26 ( talk) 23:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
While there are many things in this article that I find laughable, one is the presentation of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. As is well known by those who are familiar with the the State of Israel, this presentation is, legally speaking, inaccurate. The United Nations has stated that the Jerusalem is not legally under Israel's jurisdiction and the world, besides a minority, overwhelmingly recognizes Tel Aviv as Israel's capital. This should be made blatantly clear in this article and should not be mentioned in a small footnote that is difficult to see. -- SCL98 ( talk) 18 Feb 2009 (UTC)
In the intro, the paragraph summarising Israel's violent birth ends with, "and efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the Palestinians." This is plainly not the case and I intend to edit the sentence. Menswear ( talk) 18:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Do edit, it was never the case that Israel wanted peace. Agreed, this article also does not mention all sides of the Zionist state, such as examples of what the state has been doing to oppress the Palestinian people such as bulldozing homes, and racism of its people towards the people who were conquered by them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator ( talk • contribs) 05:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Alright people, wikipedia is not a battleground for you to bash Israel, do it on your blogs and opinion websites. The fact is that efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the refugees from Jordan (a.k.a. Palestinians). We all have differing opinions, but it is important that the articles maintain a neutral point of view regardless of our emotions. Any edits made to this article that do not adhere to this policy will be reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 ( talk) 19:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
It is possible to have a negative view of Israel which is still neutral given the facts show the negative view - Similar to articles on Nazi Germany don't paint a positive view. I think if violence directed at Israel is mentioned, then Israels "break-the-bones" strategies, partitioning of the historical lands of Palestine, and holding the Palestinians under occupation rate a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 ( talk) 10:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
This sort of an in-depth description of a conflict should go in the article dedicated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As for the claim that efforts are not being made to reach a peace accord: if you can find a reliable and authoritative source to establish such claims i think that you should indeed edit the paragraph. Gregie156 ( talk) 20:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
The capital city of Israel is Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem. If Jerusalem was ever made capital city that would cause war as the three main religions would have trouble deciding on a chief of state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.41.81 ( talk) 03:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Erm.....No. The UN and International law does not recognize Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel. Please refer to the 1997 UN report titled "The Status of Jerusalem" which calls it essentially an international city. Please stop with your biased POV.... And acknowledge International law on the issue.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.41.91 ( talk) 18:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 ( talk) 19:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
FYI most of Jerusalem is not considered to be "occupied territory", that is to say it was not conquered in 1967. The Israeli government and ministries are located in West-Jerusalem which has been part of Israel since independence.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 12:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you, Goalie1998 ( talk) 17:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I do not know how much you know about Israel but you have a mistake: Jerusalem is not all occupied. Where I live, and where the Knneset is and many other places in jerusalem are in thh non-occupied area. just for your knowledge. Meitar -- 62.219.228.172 ( talk) 13:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The part "Religion in Israel" about the groups in the Arab minority : Druze DO NOT consider themselves Arab (source 36, article "Druze" - Identity Repertoires among Arabs in Israel, Muhammad Amara and Izhak Schnell; Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, Vol. 30, 2004) and for some it's even insulting. Please change it, thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.111.251 ( talk) 21:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
This is a lot of information for this Country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.235.98 ( talk) 16:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
A paragraph should be included about the practice of state terrorism against the Palestinian population. that's something inherent to the Jewish state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.36.23.175 ( talk) 22:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia works with a neutral point of view. 68.160.14.60 ( talk)
A neutral point of view does not preclude a discussion of state terrorism. Recall that the terrorist groups Lehi, Hagannah and Irgun are the very first terrorist groups to act in palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.162.194 ( talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Very arrogant not simply to take the point that you have a point of view. Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral. A line could mention "[prominent and authoritative source] has stated that Israel's method of warfare is illegal, describing it as "state terrorism"." If you have a good source and somewhere to put it you could try that. In all likelihood someone would then want to post opposing sources and the whole paragraph would eventually be deleted or incorporated into an article on criticisms of Israel and linked from this article. Hope that helps. -- 91.110.31.237 ( talk) 13:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral" - there are many standing on the other side too, does that mean we can't include any information at all? I believe there are plenty of good sources of Israels actions being labeled as state terrorism, from alternative media in the US, and mainstream media from other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 ( talk) 10:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the person who raised this issue. Despite the claim of "neutrality," this article has a definite pro-Israel bias. It's as if terrorism doesn't exist here. Nor is there any respect for the Palestinian point of view. How about the Apartheid Wall? I find the responder extremely arrogant and off-putting. Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is to ignore the elephant in the room. Finally, there is no such thing as a "casus bellum." That translates as "accident war." I think you might have been aiming for "causa belli." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.106.195.150 ( talk) 04:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
State terrorism, including a discussion of referenced allegations of state terrorism by Israel is discused here: State Terrorism -- ShumDavar ( talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Claiming that terrorism against the Palestinians is inherent to the Jewish state, is an inflammatory posting which should be deleted from this discussion page by the author. -- ShumDavar ( talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it should be removed at all, contributors have a right to raise issues, even if they are contentious, and the question of whether Israel has practiced state terrorism is moot one, Israel has certainly used terroristic methods in the past (and which state, in all honesty hasn't used such methods). There is no doubt that Israel has been consistent in its use of armed methods when dealing with the question of Palestinian former residents of its territory now living in close proximity to its borders. This has been such a feature that it might be right to open the question of whether or not the state has institutionalised 'terrorism' (or perhaps a better term would be 'armed repression' or 'armed suppression') as a means of dealing with Palestinian refugees from the territory which is now part of Israel proper. I would agree that 'terrorism' is an emotive term and perhaps one best avoided (but then again I would also with to avoid its use in regard to Hammas which I find to be a very unsavory group but would say that they have used 'terroristic methods' rather than say they are all terrorists - after all the Hagannah used similar methods to Hamas, excluding suicide bombings, and the Irgun used mass-murder and ethnic cleansing as weapons of war - and its members received a campaign ribbon from the IDF in later years despite being terrorists who tried to import arms and bring off a possible coup d'etat against Israel). EoinBach ( talk) 02:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Neutral does not equal uncontroversial. Facts are facts. Technically speaking, the US and Israel are guilty of terrorism, by most concrete definitions of the word, in recent history. Perhaps that should be said, though I understand that to say so would be taboo.
If you're going to mention the illegal conduct of Israel then you have to mention Palestinian terror such as the countless suicide bombings or rockets fired into the Negev. "Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism"-- how can you even begin to comment on Israel's role in worldwide fundamentalist religious extremism when 60% of the Jews are secular and the state is predominantly secular. Gaza is the strip controlled by Hamas, who openly calls in its charter to throw the Jewish Israelis into the Mediterranean and establish one Palestinian state ruled by Islamic law. This just exemplifies the point that you know nothing about this topic excluding biased propaganda. Worldwide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is spread by organizations like Hamas and Al Qaeda. Please do not post again until you educate yourself on both sides of the matter of this complex issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.31.120 ( talk) 14:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
The only mention,, virtually, is "efforts for a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians have so far been unsuccessful." A bit of an understatement as well.
The issue defines Israel in the international community. In fact, in English speaking countries (which this encyclopedia caters for) this is the main point of interest about the country of Israel. Jandrews23jandrews23 ( talk) 21:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm extremely sorry, but as far as I know Jerusalem is NOT the capital of Israel, although it is the largest and culturally the most significant city of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 ( talk) 19:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
It is not a capital. Officially the capital of Israel is Tel Aviv. The BBCV made the same mistake in 2007 and then had to apologize. I think you should reconsider your decision. If Tel Aviv does not match your definition, it is not the Israeli state that is at fault. So when it has designated Jerusalem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 ( talk) 14:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 ( talk) 05:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems that there is some automatic robot that reverts this article to the official Zionist line within seconds of any edits. Funny. Fourtildas ( talk) 06:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
People keep mentioning the "official Zionist line". I'm curious: what is it? Is there a website where it's published and updated? What are it's main contentions? Can we avoid it by sticking to the format used by Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia and so on, or are they also mouthpieces for the official Zionist line? Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 09:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Live in Israel some plants or animals except human? According this article I don't know? raziel ( talk) 14:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, seems to be a valid concern. I checked some articles, and usually there is a small "Environment" or "Biodiversity" section. Squash Racket ( talk) 15:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Per the Bibl,e "Israel" use to refer to the 12 tribes. When the tribes split, the Northern tribes inherited the name Israel while the Southern tribes (including the Jews)called themselves Judea. Since that time no "Jew" has been an "Israelite".
2 Chronicles Chapter 10
1: And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for to Shechem were all Israel come to make him king. 2: And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was in Egypt, whither he had fled from the presence of Solomon the king, heard it, that Jeroboam returned out of Egypt. 3: And they sent and called him. So Jeroboam and all Israel came and spake to Rehoboam, saying, 4: Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore ease thou somewhat the grievous servitude of thy father, and his heavy yoke that he put upon us, and we will serve thee. 5: And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed. 6: And king Rehoboam took counsel with the old men that had stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, saying, What counsel give ye me to return answer to this people? 7: And they spake unto him, saying, If thou be kind to this people, and please them, and speak good words to them, they will be thy servants for ever. 8: But he forsook the counsel which the old men gave him, and took counsel with the young men that were brought up with him, that stood before him. 9: And he said unto them, What advice give ye that we may return answer to this people, which have spoken to me, saying, Ease somewhat the yoke that thy father did put upon us? 10: And the young men that were brought up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou answer the people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it somewhat lighter for us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins. 11: For whereas my father put a heavy yoke upon you, I will put more to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. 12: So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day. 13: And the king answered them roughly; and king Rehoboam forsook the counsel of the old men, 14: And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. 15: So the king hearkened not unto the people: for the cause was of God, that the LORD might perform his word, which he spake by the hand of Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat. 16: And when all Israel saw that the king would not hearken unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? and we have none inheritance in the son of Jesse: every man to your tents, O Israel: and now, David, see to thine own house. So all Israel went to their tents. 17: But as for the children of Israel that dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them. 18: Then king Rehoboam sent Hadoram that was over the tribute; and the children of Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. But king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem. 19: And Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line
After the death of King Solomon son of David, the ten northern tribes of the Kingdom of Israel rejected the Davidic line, refusing to accept Rehoboam son of Solomon, and instead chose as king Jeroboam and formed the northern Kingdom of Israel. This kingdom was eventually conquered by Assyria who exiled them, to disappear from history as The Ten Lost Tribes. 68.160.176.7 ( talk) 22:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
According to Checklinks, several URLs are dead or have connection issues. Happy editing, -- J.Mundo ( talk) 21:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
can anyone verify it and if true should it be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.106.199 ( talk) 10:52, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
its a fake report invented by Iranian TV: http://www.thejc.com/articles/iran-uses-fake-cia-report-kill-israel
Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Getting rid of the state would be a huge leap foward towards a peaceful trouble free world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.114.166.65 ( talk) 02:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Israel for the updates on dipl. rel. with mauritania, this should of course be changed in this article. I do not know if it should be cited why and when this happened, since it is in the main foreign relations page. If this is the case, then maybe in the Conflicts and Peace Treaties section?( Petterf ( talk) 07:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC))
The lead has too much history and some of it is poorly written. I suggest removing all history from the lead. Telaviv1 ( talk) 20:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Removal of all history would not comply with policy, since such a large portion of the article deals with it. The quality may depend on what is considered necessary for inclusion, and then the necessary machinations needed to present it neutrally. Currently, that balance is quite reasonable. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 00:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--This wording is pretty suspect... "The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Biblical Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism since ancient times,[8][9] and the heartland of the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah." This strikes me as odd...how can a physical state have it's "roots" in an arguably mythical land? Maybe a less contentious wording would be something like "THE IDEA of the modern state of israel...etc.."
Also:
" The Israelis were subsequently victorious in both confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has fought a series of wars with many of the Arab countries, resulting in decades of violence that continues to this day.[13] Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries and right to exist have been disputed, mainly by its Arab neighbors. "
This reeks of bias, the use of "victorious" in the sense of expanding their borders beyond what was internationally recognized as a fair division...You don't get to be VICTORIOUS in illegal occupations..you get to be..."successful"..or maybe "despite international condemnation, Israel started a move to occupy territory and illegally commence building settlements there.."
The argument that the history portion needs to stay "as-is" to allow for neutrality, is suspect and ill-intentioned, I believe...seeing as how the section is ANYTHING but neutral. GolemCatcher ( talk) 19:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--umm...You're not reading my points..my argument is that it seems irresponsible to say that the state of Israel is founded in a biblical reference..it's almost discrediting the validity of Israel, seeing as any bible should be viewed very openly as MAYBE NOT BEING TRUE... --and your second point just conveniently ignores MY point, which is:"Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action were defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not." (which I just lifted from a wikipedia article, as it states my point better than I do)..so Victory in this case means a clear transgression in the eyes of a good chunk of the world..(not just ARAB countries) so i reiterate that I think that wording shows CLEAR bias, and is not appropriate.
GolemCatcher ( talk) 19:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--just for the record, ONCE AGAIN you refuse to face the actual argument, while trying to distract with semantic diversions...I re-iterate: "Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action were defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not."
Can you not read?
-This- wikipedia "article" does not just claim Israel as "victorious" in the War...it claims it as "victorious" in having extended its claims farther than most countries view as justified, or "LEGAL"..and I find that offensive in this context..i.e: a supposedly neutral resource.
If you care to rebut, please rebut maturely and insightfully, instead of just as a knee-jerk reaction..
GolemCatcher (
talk)
23:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--hmm..I agree with you about the "not reading" part, that was out of hand (sorry)..although I guess I felt your statement "I'm not interested in your legal analysis" sort of came off as obnoxious, although perhaps it was not intended as such..? otherwise, maybe it's simply that "victorious" seemed inappropriate UNLESS you are of the mind that Israel specifically SET OUT to expand it's boundaries, which I had not necessarily thought was the case, nor has it generally been reported as the case. Accepting pre-meditation, then yes, victorious seems like a proper choice of words. 70.30.249.99 ( talk) 21:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
--I have to say that it's fascinating to watch the evolution of this article, through discourse, and sometimes Consensus... First, I have to say that I think the point of "militarily" in that context is to distinguish between the fact that Israel defended its independance by force, or rather counter-force..(verifiable fact, to an extent) and "confirmed it's RIGHT to exist", which is a political/moral/philosophical? quandry..which CANNOT be solved by violence, defensive or no...and I think cannot be a "fact" in that it is rather an Opinion, in a broad sense of the word.. having said that, Okedem's later proposals seem far more neutral in my eyes... GolemCatcher ( talk) 23:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
How about more history of the Jewish Brigade in WWII, which was raised with the support of the Hagannah, and served as part of the British Eighth Army in North Africa and Italy? This unit was crucial in the formation of the IDF, and has been described as the Brigade with dual alleigance (to the Allies and the Jewish Agency). Also more about the Irgun, Hagannah and Lehi (or Stern Gang) 08:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noel Ellis ( talk • contribs)
It's a well established fact that Israel defence forces, along with religious extremists in Israel have been pushing the Arab poppulation out of israel illegaly. I dont understand why the article doesnt point out the human right violations, illegal land grabs, and culteral genocide of native Iisraelis? The Israel article comes off as incredibly biased and one sided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.100.154.212 ( talk) 17:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Why would there be a mention of the undoubted persecution in many of the 'Arab' states prior to the 1950s - such a mention should be in the articles about those states, and I for one would support such mention. However this article is about Israel and so throwing accusations about the 'Arab' countries as a response to negative comments about Israel is immaterial. If there is evidence to support claims that Israel discriminated against Arabs (and Genocide is clearly too strong a term) then I think mention should be made of it. EoinBach ( talk) 00:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Might as well add what the Arab extremist are doing in Israel...then it would be at least fair and square...lol... Norum ( talk) 13:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Since there are heavy emotions involved it may be hard to remain neutral. But surely it is possible to not completely ignore all the bloodshed and report this in a matter of fact way. This is probably a bit awkward, but I agree that Wikipedia does well to remain neutral; There are enough non-neutral sources around. You don't need to discuss whether the bloodshed (either side of the conflict) is justified (I believe it neither is), but you can still describe the vicious cycle of retaliatory action. It requires insight and leadership to overcome this cycle of violence. It also requires the world to be well informed, since we cannot wait for the 'chosen leaders' to choose to transcend from their long history violence at their own pace.
Right now I feel that this article is very non-neutral by omitting important information on the actions of Israel. Regardless of what people may think of them, it would be 'neutralizing' to at least list them. I'd say both sides have to agree with the facts. Whenever I hear of body counts of both sides, I hear vastly larger numbers of Palistinians than from Israel. This objective information helps me form my own opinion about whether there is anything at all legitimate about what's happening in this conflict. Why am I not seeing any of this information? If you feel that it would spur heavy debates, don't think that this is because it's not neutral. Being confronted with facts historically has caused enough riots, bans, etc. That doesn't mean that we should be ignorant! (slightly off-topic) If so we should still consider the world as being flat. Okay, Friedman tells us this is not far from the truth anymore. (/off-topic)
-- EdB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.200.8 ( talk) 00:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Is there enough interst, or consensus from respective parties to start a new section called "Controversies"? For one, I want to address and examine the dynamics of the US/Israel relationship as it is being precieved and shaped with events like the Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal, John Mearsheimer's and Stephen Walt's book "The Israel Lobby", over a dozen vetoes by the US in the UN Security on behalf of Israel (arguably made in Israel's defence of violations of international law), the effectiveness of the neo-con movement in brining us to war with Iraq under false pretenses and it's relatoinship/ties to the American/Jewish power structure, to name some of the more well known events. There is enough dialouge and research out there concerning the topics I've listed and others as well, for reliable sourcing and I believe the subject matter is very relevant. Although these controversies do not individually constitute an excistential threat to Israel, the culmination of controversies have begun to crack the very old perception that "What's good for Israel is good for the US" and vice versa. Other controvercies like Sabra, Shatila, the destruction of private property, confiscation of private property, second hand status of non-Jewish Israli citizens, etc... may also be included. Like a list of links to the articles that already excist in Wikipedia for the subjects I sugested. Because of Israel's unique relationship to the US, the degree of influence the ethnicly Jewish population exerts over US foreign policy, media, and economic matters there is a growing interest in Israel and that unique relationship. I'm not Jewish, and I'm concerned that the nature of the content I've suggested will be precieved as non-npov. On the other hand for reasons I've stated, I think there is a real consideration here. Israel is as about as controversial as you can get these days, and to not acknowledge that is literally like ignoring the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 06:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
This article is about a country, and I do not really think that a "controversies" section would be appropriate. There is likely a separate page dealing with that kind of stuff. Tad Lincoln ( talk) 06:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, Israel is a specail case, and I wouldn't have suggested it if I did'nt think it was appropriate. Since you didn't explain why you think it's innappropriate, I'll assume because it would be outside the normal format used for articles about countries. What's going on in Israel is outside the normal format for US allies, let alone 1st world developed countries. Never has a country so closley tied to the interest of the US been involved in such controversy. It is historical. I just wanted to make a suggestion. Because, like I said, it's the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room. I mean, it's all there. I hope there will be more disscussion about this. Thanks for the feedback anyways. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 07:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
No, they are not false, you may think they are however, and that is why they are called controversies. And I don't think I'm confusing US Jews with Israel (whatevr that means) I read an article in Harpers about 8 months ago about individuals like you. Or maybe like you. The article was a transcript of email corespondences that alluded to the 'infilltration' of Wikipedia by Jews and an effort by them to attain the rank of senoir editor, or whatever its called, so they could effectively shape the debate surrounding the very controversies we are disscussing. If you can find it you should read it. It's pretty funny. Look, I'm very concerned with the well being of anyone who doesn't want to kill me or enslave me. I just think it's becoming disengenuous and dangerous to continulay whitewash and appologize for a growing list of outrageous controversies that under only slightly different cirmcumstances would be vigorously debated and disscussed. The controversies I'm primarly speaking of deal with Israel's relationship with the US. Honestly if enough contributors don't see the validity for a new section to this article that's fine. I just don't want the idea smothered by people who are unable to be objective. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 07:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks all very much for your input and suggestions. Will look into it. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 08:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I have made [6] the following edit to the lede for the Nov ’47 to May ’48 period (three sentences); it currently reads:
Discussions please, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 04:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
While it is true taht those who declared independece were mostly "zionists" the term is misleading since it was not the zionist movement that declared indpendence, but the Jewish Agency for Palestine which would have also included non-zionist ultra orthodox members like agudat israel. I think the Zionist movement was led by Weizmann and he did not declare indepdence: his signature does not appear on the delcaration. Telaviv1 ( talk) 07:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Everything you say is speculation. The Jewish Agency executive took decisions democratically and as far as I can remeber the decision to declare a state was taken by a vote. Ben-Gurion did not simply issue decrees. Too get ultr-orthodox support he agreed to make marriage and who-is-a-jew subject to rabbincial control. He also inserted a reference to divine sanction ("the rock of Israel") in the declaration of independence and made orthodx jews exempt from military service.
I will investigate and see what I can find on this issue but I think you will find that there was Jewish unity on the subject of a state. The fact that we argue loudly does not mean we are not one family.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 22:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, it wasn't the Jewish Agency it was the Jewish National Council. The Zionist General council voted 40 to 18 in april 47 to create a national comittee which had the task of running the country. its complex and I ahvent got the full story. Agudat Israel boycotted the elections but agreed to join as they beleived the Arabs would slaughter them (the 1929 pogrom establhsied that they were the first ones to get it when trouble arose and that they needed the zionists to protect them).¬¬¬¬
Palestine's Jews is more appropriate then zionists as these were the elected representatives of palestine's jews. Palestine's Zionists is also OK, you cold try the elected representatives of palestine's Jews and zionists. Telaviv1 ( talk) 16:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The section of the article currently titled Occupied Territories is a biased POV. Edits should be made to change it back to the original titled Disputed Territories or include both labels. The west bank, golan heights, and Jerusalem have been annexed by Israel and their status under international law conflicts with Israel's position. The Gaza strip, as of the 2005 disengagement is separately disputed because of a continuing blockade and the current conflict with Hamas. Comments or suggestive remarks only please, plenty of other sections to continue pro and anti-Israel banter thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 ( talk) 14:31, 25 February 2009 (UTC) (I've created an account so that I can be identified in discussions. Avinyc ( talk) 17:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Occupied is probably the most accurate term for the section title, as well as being more informative, factual and widely used internationally. I admit that it might not be politically correct in the NPOV Wiki-world, but since these specific territories occur in the geography of this particular (Israel) article, I think this internationally accepted factual term is more appropriate. There is no dispute that the land is disputed, and no dispute that certain specific factions prefer to use the term 'disputed'. 'Disputed' is also seen by many others as POV'ly euphemistic. I believe this section is the perfect place to discuss this specifically, but not in the title. I also note a distinction is made above between 'occupied' and 'not under [military] occupation administration'. This also seems somewhat an internal fine point, since those specific distinctions ( Jerusalem Law and Golan Heights Law) are not internationally recognized either. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 09:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
The fact that this conversation is even taking place is proof that the territories should be called 'disputed'. Today most of the original territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are no longer occupied, and even if you only focus on the West Bank and Golan Heights, there are still areas which are not occupied. It's a very complicated matter and the best way to deal with it is use a 100% neutral term, which is 'disputed'. I think we can all agree that the territories in question are disputed. --
Ynhockey (
Talk)
09:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I think the best thing to do here is to change the name to "disputed territories", and then, if people feel it necessary, to note, in the section, that the UN classifies these territories as "occupied". Tad Lincoln ( talk) 01:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
One critical point is that Wikipedia calls things by the name they are known by, not by the term editors prefer, consensus or not. (Wiki us not a democracy.) Google hits for "'occupied territories' +Israel": 875,000; for "'disputed territories' + Israel":34,000. RomaC ( talk) 22:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
this problem could be circumvented by calling it soemthing like "Territories occupied by Israel in the Six Day War" or "Territories conquered by Israel in the Six Day War" Telaviv1 ( talk) 09:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I've read through this talk section. So, in a nutshell the argument being advanced is that changing 'occupied' to 'disputed' here (and by extension, globally in WP in all I-P article titles, subheadings, text etc) we will increase compliance with
WP:V,
WP:NPOV,
WP:DUE,
WP:COMMONNAME,
WP:NCON and probably others that I can't think of.
hmmm...
Has this issue really never been subject to a dispute resolution before ?
Sean.hoyland -
talk
11:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the "factual", "disputed" and "accuracy" approach is problematic in context of Israel. One could argue, that in "factual" and "accurate" terms in contrast to "legal" and "widely recogniced" definitions, the State of Israel is "disputed", since some elements do not recongice it. Thus it would be "accurate" and "factual" to use the term "disputed" in context of Israeli regions more broadly, which is much more than questionable. Legal definitions and widely recogniced concepts might be the best way to describe the extraordinary situations in these regions, because the definition of especially "disputed" is not clear-cut. Where do we and wikipedia draw the line in "factual", "accuracy" and especially "disputed"? Does these definitions exist? Pprkl007 ( talk) 23:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to put forth my original request that is described in the first comment of this section to rename the "Occupied Territories" section to "Disputed Territories." Disputed Territories, in my opinion, covers the notion of occupied and conquered while also giving a NPOV title to the arguments within the section. There has not been any definitive argument other than a popular google search showing that the title should remain as is. Since my suggestion is valid and neutral, unless there is something new to add to this topic, can we move forward with the changes? There have not been any comments posted over a week so I would like to see the article edited before the bots archive this section. Avinyc ( talk) 16:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Should I or someone else rename the section, or would that start a revert war? Just looking for a way to progress this discussion to a resolution. Avinyc ( talk) 20:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps Wikipedia should reproduce the views of the government of Israel? While discussing the property right of Israelis evacuated from the Gaza Strip, the Court stated:
"This property right is limited in scope . . . most Israelis do not have ownership of the land on which they built their houses and businesses in the territory to be evacuated. They acquired their rights from the military commander, or from persons acting on his behalf. Neither the military commander nor those acting on his behalf are owners of the property, and they cannot transfer rights better than those they have. To the extent that the Israelis built their homes and assets on land which is not private ('state land'), that land is not owned by the military commander. His authority is defined in regulation 55 of The Hague Regulations. . . . The State of Israel acts . . . as the administrator of the state property and as usufructuary of it . . . " (Id., paragraph 127 of the opinion of the Court).
... ...
B. The Normative Outline in the Supreme Court's Caselaw
1. Belligerent Occupation
14. The Judea and Samaria areas are held by the State of Israel in belligerent occupation. The long arm of the state in the area is the military commander. He is not the sovereign in the territory held in belligerent occupation (see The Beit Sourik Case, at p. 832). His power is granted him by public international law regarding belligerent occupation. The legal meaning of this view is twofold: first, Israeli law does not apply in these areas. They have not been "annexed" to Israel. Second, the legal regime which applies in these areas is determined by public international law regarding belligerent occupation (see HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al. (yet unpublished, paragraph 3 of the opinion of the Court; hereinafter – The Gaza Coast Regional Council Case). In the center of this public international law stand the Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague, 18 October 1907 (hereinafter – The Hague Regulations). These regulations are a reflection of customary international law. The law of belligerent occupation is also laid out in IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949 (hereinafter – the Fourth Geneva Convention). The State of Israel has declared that it practices the humanitarian parts of this convention. In light of that declaration on the part of the government of Israel, we see no need to reexamine the government's position. We are aware that the Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice determined that The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the Judea and Samaria area, and that its application is not conditional upon the willingness of the State of Israel to uphold its provisions. As mentioned, seeing as the government of Israel accepts that the humanitarian aspects of The Fourth Geneva Convention apply in the area, we are not of the opinion that we must take a stand on that issue in the petition before us." see HCJ 7957/04 Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel
The Court recently mentioned the disputed rights of Israelis evacuated from Amona:
It is a general principle that "a person must decide in his heart whether to seek the court’s assistance or to take the law into his own hands. A person cannot do these two things at once..." (HCJ 8898/04 Jackson v. Commander of the IDF Forces in Judea and Samaria (unreported 28 October, 2004). For the most recent ruling pertinent to this judgment see HCJ 851/06 Amona Farmer’s Co-operative for communal settlements Ltd. v. Minister of Defense (not yet published, 29 January, 2006); HCJ 6102/04 Moadi v. Minister of the Interior (unreported 26 September, 2005) HCJ 1547/07 Bar Kohva v. Israel Police (not yet published, 11 July, 2007). The court shall not open its doors to those who have taken the law into their own hands, deride the provisions of the law and seek to put before the Authority a fait accomplis. The prohibition on taking the law into one’s own hands falls under the rubric of the broader general principle that requires that a litigant who applies to the court for its assistance come with clean hands, (see for example HCJ197/81 Friedman v. Mayor of Eilat, Piskei Din 36(2) 425 (1982), HCJ 212/56 Slonimsky v. Petah Tikva Municipality, Piskei Din 11 446, 448 (1957); D”N 19/68 Petah Tikva Municipality v. Minister of Agriculture, Piskei Din 23 (1) 253 (1969); HCJ 609/75 Israeli v. Mayor of Tel Aviv – Yafo, Piskei Din 30(2) 304 (1976). The subject under discussion falls under the principle that has been defined as a threshold cause in the matter of applying to the High Court of Justice or the Administrative Court. A litigant who acts with unclean hands will find that his petition is summarily dismissed without his claims being heard on the merits. extracted from HCJ 3483/05 D.B.S. Escort Services Ltd. Et al v. Minister of Communications et al, cited in HCJ 3170/07, HaMoked et al vs The State of Israel et al
harlan ( talk) 06:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
The Court has ruled that Judea and Samaria are being held in belligerent occupation, and furthermore that Israeli rights in Judea and Samaria are limited to those of a belligerent occupying power in accordance with the provisions of the Hague IV Convention of 1907. Judge Meir Shamgar's ruling regarding the Rights and Duties of the Occupying Power under Articles 43 and 49 of the Hague Regulations in HC 69/81 Bassil Abu Aita v. The Regional commander of Judea and Samaria is much more convincing than the theoretical opinion he expressed in "The Observance of International Law in the Administered Territories," Israel Yearbook on Human Rights, Y. Dinstein (ed.), 1971. harlan ( talk) 06:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)to order State and local authorities and the officials and bodies thereof, and other persons carrying out public functions under law, to do or refrain from doing any act in the lawful exercise of their functions. see Basic Law: The Judiciary.
Alright, there seems to be a standstill for no reason with this section. If anyone is against changing the title, then we should ask for the 3rd opinion mentioned or a dispute resolution. I believe enough time has lapsed waiting for everyone to make their case on this talk page. If the only way to reach a conclusion is to move ahead and change the title now, then I or someone else will make the changes. We can start a new talk discussion on changing the title back to Occupied from Disputed if that suits the editors. Avinyc ( talk) 13:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
14. The Judea and Samaria areas are held by the State of Israel in belligerent occupation. The long arm of the state in the area is the military commander. He is not the sovereign in the territory held in belligerent occupation (see The Beit Sourik Case, at p. 832). His power is granted him by public international law regarding belligerent occupation. The legal meaning of this view is twofold: first, Israeli law does not apply in these areas. They have not been "annexed" to Israel. Second, the legal regime which applies in these areas is determined by public international law regarding belligerent occupation (see HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al. (yet unpublished, paragraph 3 of the opinion of the Court; hereinafter – The Gaza Coast Regional Council Case). see HCJ 7957/04 Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel
harlan ( talk) 19:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
An unauthorized outpost is a settlement which does not fulfill at least one of the above mentioned conditions. And I must emphasize: an unauthorized outpost is not a “semi legal” outpost. Unauthorized is illegal.
UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 support the claim of Disputed Territories. The government of Israel declares that they are disputed and not occupied. Since the UN resolutions do not declare Israel is occupying these territories plus the fact that Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to Israel since there was no sovereign power ruling over the land before it was mandated, there is a strong argument that they are not occupied. The only neutral term between Occupied and Not Occupied is Disputed. Avinyc ( talk) 03:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
LoiPolloi ( talk) 18:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
It was from occupied territories that the Resolution called for withdrawal. The test was which territories were occupied. That was a test not possibly subject to any doubt. As a matter of plain fact East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan and Sinai were occupied in the 1967 conflict. It was on withdrawal from occupied territories that the Resolution insisted . . . Much play has been made of the fact that we did not say "the" territories or "all the" territories. But that was deliberate. I myself knew very well the 1967 boundaries and if we had put in "the" or "all the" that could only have meant that we wished to see the 1967 boundaries perpetuated in the form of a permanent frontier. This I was certainly not prepared to recommend.
What were the 1967 boundaries? They were no more than the cease-fire borders decided nearly two decades previously. They were based on the accident of where exactly the Israeli and the Arab armies happened to be on that particular night . . . Knowing as I did the unsatisfactory nature of the 1967 line I was not prepared to use wording in the Resolution which would have made that line permanent. Nevertheless it is necessary to say again that the overriding principle was the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" and that meant that there could be no justification for annexation of territory on the Arab side of the 1967 line merely because it had been conquered in the 1967 war. The sensible way to decide permanent "secure and recognized" boundaries would be to set up a Boundary Commission and hear both sides and then to make impartial recommendations for a new frontier line, bearing in mind, of course, the "inadmissibility" principle. --from U.N. Security Council Resolution 242, a case study in diplomatic ambiguity, Published in 1981, Institute for the Study of Diplomacy, Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service, Georgetown University (Washington, D.C), pp. 9-13, cited in Palestine and the law, By Musa E. Mazzawi, page 210-211
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | → | Archive 35 |
As far as I know, there are 3 official languages in Israel: Hebrew, Arabic and English. According to the material which I've found in PC program "35 languages of the world (Berlitz): Hebrew is official language of Israel. Arabic is the second official language, English is also very common. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 231013-a ( talk • contribs) 06:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/isrlindx.htm
Israel, Palestine and the Occupied Territories
The question of Palestine and Israel has commanded the attention of the UN since the organization was founded. The UN General Assembly voted the original partition of the land in November 1947 and the UN deployed its first peacekeeping operation to monitor the ceasefire lines after the war of 1948. This site introduces readers to the key issues, with a special focus on UN involvement in the conflict. For many years, successive Israeli governments refused to consider a Palestinian state, while most Arabs denied the legitimacy of Israel. In the 1970s both sides began to recognize the need for compromise. The Palestinians proposed a separate state, claiming as their homeland the territories outside the 1948 ceasefire lines, territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 war. This idea found widespread support in the international community, and Israel was called on to withdraw from this land, as affirmed in UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
Israel's 1967 occupation of other territories complicated the matter. Israel seized Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and Syria's Golan Heights and set up settlements in both. Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 and maintained a long- term occupation in the southern part of the country. These wars and occupations were related to the Palestine question and deepened the political crisis surrounding it. Even after Israel eventually withdrew from Egypt and Lebanon, the Palestine (and Golan) occupations continued. Israel's settlement-building, and its construction of a massive border- wall that annexed large swaths of Palestinian territory, has made resolution of the conflict far more difficult.
Since resolutions 242 and 338, the Security Council has taken no significant steps to end the Israel-Palestine conflict. United States influence has generally kept the issue off the Council's agenda. When Council members have introduced resolutions, responding to periodic crises, the US has repeatedly used its veto on Israel's behalf. The General Assembly has taken a more active and creative role in the conflict, yet its resolutions are non-binding and have largely symbolic weight. Both bodies would have been more effective if governments had been willing to confront US displeasure and US pressure. Recent US policy has only made matters worse.
Key issues that have plagued the stalled "peace process" include: Israel's occupation, Israeli settlements and settlement-building, the Israeli wall, security for Israelis and Palestinians, shared sovereignty over Jerusalem, and the right of return of 3.7 million stateless Palestinian refugees.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/unindex.htm
UN Involvement
Though the Security Council has “primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security,” it has not been able to address and resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict. The Council has taken no significant action since 1967, when it passed Resolution 242 calling on Israel to relinquish the territories acquired during its war with Syria and Egypt. The United States has used its influence to keep the issue off the Council’s agenda and it has repeatedly used its veto power on Israel’s behalf. Council resolutions critical of Israel are almost certain to fail, irrespective of the will of other Council members and regardless of international law and the magnitude of Israel’s violations.
The General Assembly has taken a more active role in the conflict, repeatedly taking action and often calling on parties to respect human rights. In 1988, the Assembly took the unprecedented step of holding a special session in Geneva after the United States refused to grant Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat the visa needed to address the Assembly in New York. Israel accuses the General Assembly of having a “pro-Palestinian” bias. Yet the Assembly is unable to compel the parties to work towards peace since its resolutions only have moral and symbolic weight and are not legally binding. Both the Assembly and the Security Council could, of course, be more effective if governments were willing to risk the displeasure and pressure of the United States.
Frustrated by its own impotence and by the inaction of the Security Council, the General Assembly asked the International Court of Justice to evaluate the legal status of Israel’s “separation wall.” In July 2004, the Court declared the illegality of the barrier. The Security Council has yet to accept and enforce the Court’s ruling, however, and the United Nations remains sidelined in the conflict, acting primarily through the Secretary General's special envoys and through its role as a member of the “Quartet.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
UN, Red Cross curtail Gaza aid, criticize Israel
January 8, 2009
JERUSALEM – The U.N. and the Red Cross curtailed aid shipments in the Gaza Strip on Thursday after accusing Israeli forces of firing on their drivers, killing one. 18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC) 75.7.251.235 ( talk) U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle was marked with a U.N. flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza. 18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)~~ In Geneva, the international Red Cross said it would restrict its aid operations to Gaza City for at least one day after one of its convoys came under Israeli fire at the Netzarim crossing during the three-hour lull in fighting Thursday. One driver was lightly injured. 18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)~~ A Red Cross spokesman says rescuers had been refused permission by Israeli forces to reach the site for four days. It said the delay in allowing rescue services access was "unacceptable."
75.7.251.235 (
talk)
18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Please someone correct false information in "recent developments" section, which erroneusly reports that Hamas broke the ceasefire. Actually Hamas re-started hostilities against Israel only after the ceasefire was ended ( http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-12-18-hamas-declares-end-to-ceasefire-with-israel), while it was Israel who first broke the ceasefire back in november ( " http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians).-- Heartpox ( talk) 12:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
This is all meaningless and irrelevant, the ceasefire was invalid since day one, because it was supposed to involve opening passages to and from Gaza, and that didn't happen. The people in Gaza were starving and firing was from both sides. (J.A.W) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.227.29.88 ( talk) 10:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Do not concentrate on the HAMAS lanuching the rockets but look at the siege of GAZA for 2 years, no water, no food, no fuel, assasiantions of Hamas officials, killing of civilians during the ceasefire by Isreal, all border crossing being closed, Gaza nto ahving access to basic rights. Israle not complying wiht any of UN resolutions for the last 60 years. These all had a part to play!! If Israel went back to the 1967 borders, The two state solution would be achievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.70.117 ( talk) 11:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
CNN has also reported Israel broke the ceasefire. Here is an Israeli news source confirming Israel breaking the ceasefire: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050460.html "Six months ago Israel asked and received a cease-fire from Hamas. It unilaterally violated it when it blew up a tunnel, while still asking Egypt to get the Islamic group to hold its fire." Also, the way it is currently worded in the wiki article, it claims the ceasefire collapsed when Hamas shot rockets. The truth is the ceasefire already expired by then so how can Hamas cause the ceasefire to collapse? — Illxchild ( talk · contribs) 05:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The claim that the truce broke down in December is completely inaccurate. The ceasefire truce effectively ended in November the 3rd when Israel army killed six Hamas gunmen. That is the fact. Limited (1-2/month) mortar and rocket attacks were carried out from the Gaza strip during the months of ceasefire by other groups than Hamas and in occasions there were arrests by Hamas of people that carried out the attacks. Fact too. The above information is easily available in any mainstream media site on internet and therefore providing links is not required. Kkevreki ( talk) 00:49, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I suggest the whole piece about recent events is left out until things are cleared. Kkevreki ( talk) 09:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Why isn't there a good one, of the country and cities etc.? RomaC ( talk) 13:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
It has came to my attention that not many people know this but israel was not a official country until the end of World War II. Many people belive the greater picture of the war was to make Israel a official country. -- Jazz951 ( talk) 05:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
This is not a blog. This space is for discussion of the article. ShumDavar ( talk)
I've asked several people this, and no one seems to know, wouldn't it be smarted to use plain boring old BC and AD so that people actually know what the dates are??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.119.134 ( talk) 10:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Look it up.
Telaviv1 (
talk)
11:06, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
For two if you look in history no matter where you look you will see this as a religious related nation weather you like it or not... so i think it should be changed to BC and AD... you also have to remember that there is like 50-100 years between the two... Jazz951 ( talk) 06:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph, the sentence, "The West Bank and Gaza Strip are also adjacent," is unclear. On first read, it sounds like it is saying that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are adjacent to each other. I wonder if it would be better to either add the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the preceding list of neighbouring states with wording that distinguishes them as occupied territories rather than independent states, or to leave the preceding sentence as is and to revise this sentence to clarify that the the West Bank and Gaza Strip border Israel but are not adjacent to each other. This is my first discussion edit - I hope I did it right. Mhanmer ( talk) 02:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi MPerel. Nice revision - thanks. Mhanmer ( talk) 02:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
<< Isarel killed about 800 and injured over 3200 in 14 days offense on Gaza Strip between 2008/12/27-2009/01/09 about 50% of them are women and children under 16 years old. Isarel did not respond to UNSC resolution for immerditae cease-fire. Hamas fired rockets because of the siege that lasted about 18 month during 2007 & 2008. Only 6 Isarelies were killed in rockts attacks. This is not an openion, these are facts from news channels and newspaper articles quoting both sides...It is also dokumented in UNSC meetings regarding Gaza situation, that Israel targeted civilian and aid-worker. Both ICRC and UNRWA submitted official complaints about Isareli armed-forces targeting their operation and employees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.80.81 ( talk • contribs) 13:44, 9 January 2009
Please stop with going around calling anyone who you claim to be defaming the Zionist state as anti-semitic. One cannot be called a racist for defamation of the Zionist state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator ( talkwhat their • contribs) 05:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I think that criticism of Israel, can be of course not antisemitic, as well as criticism of Zionism. Even those who say that Israel has no right to exist,are not always antisemitic, like Gaddafi from Lubya, who says that there should be no Israel or Palestine, but one state for both Israelis an Palestinians. But when somebody justify Hamas firing rockets he is anti-Semitic. Hamas dont target military targets with this rockets, nor political, they don`t ask if somebody Zionist or not, they randomly target Israelis, and as they themselves say that their targets are Israeli Jews, and that Israeli Arabs, Muslim or Christians are not their enemy. So if somebody justify randomly killing Jews of Israel or any other country, they are without a doubt anti-Semitic, no matter justification is. Igorb2008 ( talk) 17:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
In the very beginning of the "History" section.
"The Land of Israel ... has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland;[22][23] scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[24]"
Chat's cool, people. I mean, that's really fantastic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FeelSunny ( talk • contribs) 16:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
"The United Nations and most countries do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital [1] and maintain their embassies in other cities such as Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, and Herzliya."
This information keeps being deleted by Okedem. I dont think it is trivia.-- Abuk78 ( talk) 12:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland should read as the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by their god, as their homeland as saying "by God" could be viewed as A) an acknowledgment of a higher power and B) recognition that their god is the only god....also capitalizing it as a proper noun insinuates as much by using it as a name. I would have changed it myself but apparently I can't edit this without an account and I'm lazy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.220.120 ( talk • contribs) 05:57, 16 January 2009
"Israel responded with a series of airstrikes.[99] In response, protests broke out around the world.[100]"
Is this neutral without mentioning the
later pro-Israeli rallies?
Squash Racket (
talk)
06:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
there were jaust as many pro israel protests as "pro-hamas" protests —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.38.26 ( talk) 23:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
While there are many things in this article that I find laughable, one is the presentation of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. As is well known by those who are familiar with the the State of Israel, this presentation is, legally speaking, inaccurate. The United Nations has stated that the Jerusalem is not legally under Israel's jurisdiction and the world, besides a minority, overwhelmingly recognizes Tel Aviv as Israel's capital. This should be made blatantly clear in this article and should not be mentioned in a small footnote that is difficult to see. -- SCL98 ( talk) 18 Feb 2009 (UTC)
In the intro, the paragraph summarising Israel's violent birth ends with, "and efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the Palestinians." This is plainly not the case and I intend to edit the sentence. Menswear ( talk) 18:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Do edit, it was never the case that Israel wanted peace. Agreed, this article also does not mention all sides of the Zionist state, such as examples of what the state has been doing to oppress the Palestinian people such as bulldozing homes, and racism of its people towards the people who were conquered by them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator ( talk • contribs) 05:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Alright people, wikipedia is not a battleground for you to bash Israel, do it on your blogs and opinion websites. The fact is that efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the refugees from Jordan (a.k.a. Palestinians). We all have differing opinions, but it is important that the articles maintain a neutral point of view regardless of our emotions. Any edits made to this article that do not adhere to this policy will be reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 ( talk) 19:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
It is possible to have a negative view of Israel which is still neutral given the facts show the negative view - Similar to articles on Nazi Germany don't paint a positive view. I think if violence directed at Israel is mentioned, then Israels "break-the-bones" strategies, partitioning of the historical lands of Palestine, and holding the Palestinians under occupation rate a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 ( talk) 10:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
This sort of an in-depth description of a conflict should go in the article dedicated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As for the claim that efforts are not being made to reach a peace accord: if you can find a reliable and authoritative source to establish such claims i think that you should indeed edit the paragraph. Gregie156 ( talk) 20:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
The capital city of Israel is Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem. If Jerusalem was ever made capital city that would cause war as the three main religions would have trouble deciding on a chief of state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.41.81 ( talk) 03:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Erm.....No. The UN and International law does not recognize Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel. Please refer to the 1997 UN report titled "The Status of Jerusalem" which calls it essentially an international city. Please stop with your biased POV.... And acknowledge International law on the issue.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.41.91 ( talk) 18:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 ( talk) 19:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
FYI most of Jerusalem is not considered to be "occupied territory", that is to say it was not conquered in 1967. The Israeli government and ministries are located in West-Jerusalem which has been part of Israel since independence.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 12:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you, Goalie1998 ( talk) 17:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I do not know how much you know about Israel but you have a mistake: Jerusalem is not all occupied. Where I live, and where the Knneset is and many other places in jerusalem are in thh non-occupied area. just for your knowledge. Meitar -- 62.219.228.172 ( talk) 13:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The part "Religion in Israel" about the groups in the Arab minority : Druze DO NOT consider themselves Arab (source 36, article "Druze" - Identity Repertoires among Arabs in Israel, Muhammad Amara and Izhak Schnell; Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, Vol. 30, 2004) and for some it's even insulting. Please change it, thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.111.251 ( talk) 21:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
This is a lot of information for this Country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.235.98 ( talk) 16:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
A paragraph should be included about the practice of state terrorism against the Palestinian population. that's something inherent to the Jewish state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.36.23.175 ( talk) 22:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia works with a neutral point of view. 68.160.14.60 ( talk)
A neutral point of view does not preclude a discussion of state terrorism. Recall that the terrorist groups Lehi, Hagannah and Irgun are the very first terrorist groups to act in palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.162.194 ( talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Very arrogant not simply to take the point that you have a point of view. Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral. A line could mention "[prominent and authoritative source] has stated that Israel's method of warfare is illegal, describing it as "state terrorism"." If you have a good source and somewhere to put it you could try that. In all likelihood someone would then want to post opposing sources and the whole paragraph would eventually be deleted or incorporated into an article on criticisms of Israel and linked from this article. Hope that helps. -- 91.110.31.237 ( talk) 13:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral" - there are many standing on the other side too, does that mean we can't include any information at all? I believe there are plenty of good sources of Israels actions being labeled as state terrorism, from alternative media in the US, and mainstream media from other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 ( talk) 10:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the person who raised this issue. Despite the claim of "neutrality," this article has a definite pro-Israel bias. It's as if terrorism doesn't exist here. Nor is there any respect for the Palestinian point of view. How about the Apartheid Wall? I find the responder extremely arrogant and off-putting. Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is to ignore the elephant in the room. Finally, there is no such thing as a "casus bellum." That translates as "accident war." I think you might have been aiming for "causa belli." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.106.195.150 ( talk) 04:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
State terrorism, including a discussion of referenced allegations of state terrorism by Israel is discused here: State Terrorism -- ShumDavar ( talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Claiming that terrorism against the Palestinians is inherent to the Jewish state, is an inflammatory posting which should be deleted from this discussion page by the author. -- ShumDavar ( talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it should be removed at all, contributors have a right to raise issues, even if they are contentious, and the question of whether Israel has practiced state terrorism is moot one, Israel has certainly used terroristic methods in the past (and which state, in all honesty hasn't used such methods). There is no doubt that Israel has been consistent in its use of armed methods when dealing with the question of Palestinian former residents of its territory now living in close proximity to its borders. This has been such a feature that it might be right to open the question of whether or not the state has institutionalised 'terrorism' (or perhaps a better term would be 'armed repression' or 'armed suppression') as a means of dealing with Palestinian refugees from the territory which is now part of Israel proper. I would agree that 'terrorism' is an emotive term and perhaps one best avoided (but then again I would also with to avoid its use in regard to Hammas which I find to be a very unsavory group but would say that they have used 'terroristic methods' rather than say they are all terrorists - after all the Hagannah used similar methods to Hamas, excluding suicide bombings, and the Irgun used mass-murder and ethnic cleansing as weapons of war - and its members received a campaign ribbon from the IDF in later years despite being terrorists who tried to import arms and bring off a possible coup d'etat against Israel). EoinBach ( talk) 02:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Neutral does not equal uncontroversial. Facts are facts. Technically speaking, the US and Israel are guilty of terrorism, by most concrete definitions of the word, in recent history. Perhaps that should be said, though I understand that to say so would be taboo.
If you're going to mention the illegal conduct of Israel then you have to mention Palestinian terror such as the countless suicide bombings or rockets fired into the Negev. "Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism"-- how can you even begin to comment on Israel's role in worldwide fundamentalist religious extremism when 60% of the Jews are secular and the state is predominantly secular. Gaza is the strip controlled by Hamas, who openly calls in its charter to throw the Jewish Israelis into the Mediterranean and establish one Palestinian state ruled by Islamic law. This just exemplifies the point that you know nothing about this topic excluding biased propaganda. Worldwide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is spread by organizations like Hamas and Al Qaeda. Please do not post again until you educate yourself on both sides of the matter of this complex issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.31.120 ( talk) 14:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
The only mention,, virtually, is "efforts for a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians have so far been unsuccessful." A bit of an understatement as well.
The issue defines Israel in the international community. In fact, in English speaking countries (which this encyclopedia caters for) this is the main point of interest about the country of Israel. Jandrews23jandrews23 ( talk) 21:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm extremely sorry, but as far as I know Jerusalem is NOT the capital of Israel, although it is the largest and culturally the most significant city of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 ( talk) 19:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
It is not a capital. Officially the capital of Israel is Tel Aviv. The BBCV made the same mistake in 2007 and then had to apologize. I think you should reconsider your decision. If Tel Aviv does not match your definition, it is not the Israeli state that is at fault. So when it has designated Jerusalem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 ( talk) 14:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 ( talk) 05:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems that there is some automatic robot that reverts this article to the official Zionist line within seconds of any edits. Funny. Fourtildas ( talk) 06:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
People keep mentioning the "official Zionist line". I'm curious: what is it? Is there a website where it's published and updated? What are it's main contentions? Can we avoid it by sticking to the format used by Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia and so on, or are they also mouthpieces for the official Zionist line? Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 09:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Live in Israel some plants or animals except human? According this article I don't know? raziel ( talk) 14:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, seems to be a valid concern. I checked some articles, and usually there is a small "Environment" or "Biodiversity" section. Squash Racket ( talk) 15:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Per the Bibl,e "Israel" use to refer to the 12 tribes. When the tribes split, the Northern tribes inherited the name Israel while the Southern tribes (including the Jews)called themselves Judea. Since that time no "Jew" has been an "Israelite".
2 Chronicles Chapter 10
1: And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for to Shechem were all Israel come to make him king. 2: And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was in Egypt, whither he had fled from the presence of Solomon the king, heard it, that Jeroboam returned out of Egypt. 3: And they sent and called him. So Jeroboam and all Israel came and spake to Rehoboam, saying, 4: Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore ease thou somewhat the grievous servitude of thy father, and his heavy yoke that he put upon us, and we will serve thee. 5: And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed. 6: And king Rehoboam took counsel with the old men that had stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, saying, What counsel give ye me to return answer to this people? 7: And they spake unto him, saying, If thou be kind to this people, and please them, and speak good words to them, they will be thy servants for ever. 8: But he forsook the counsel which the old men gave him, and took counsel with the young men that were brought up with him, that stood before him. 9: And he said unto them, What advice give ye that we may return answer to this people, which have spoken to me, saying, Ease somewhat the yoke that thy father did put upon us? 10: And the young men that were brought up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou answer the people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it somewhat lighter for us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins. 11: For whereas my father put a heavy yoke upon you, I will put more to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. 12: So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day. 13: And the king answered them roughly; and king Rehoboam forsook the counsel of the old men, 14: And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. 15: So the king hearkened not unto the people: for the cause was of God, that the LORD might perform his word, which he spake by the hand of Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat. 16: And when all Israel saw that the king would not hearken unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? and we have none inheritance in the son of Jesse: every man to your tents, O Israel: and now, David, see to thine own house. So all Israel went to their tents. 17: But as for the children of Israel that dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them. 18: Then king Rehoboam sent Hadoram that was over the tribute; and the children of Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. But king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem. 19: And Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line
After the death of King Solomon son of David, the ten northern tribes of the Kingdom of Israel rejected the Davidic line, refusing to accept Rehoboam son of Solomon, and instead chose as king Jeroboam and formed the northern Kingdom of Israel. This kingdom was eventually conquered by Assyria who exiled them, to disappear from history as The Ten Lost Tribes. 68.160.176.7 ( talk) 22:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
According to Checklinks, several URLs are dead or have connection issues. Happy editing, -- J.Mundo ( talk) 21:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
can anyone verify it and if true should it be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.106.199 ( talk) 10:52, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
its a fake report invented by Iranian TV: http://www.thejc.com/articles/iran-uses-fake-cia-report-kill-israel
Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Getting rid of the state would be a huge leap foward towards a peaceful trouble free world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.114.166.65 ( talk) 02:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Israel for the updates on dipl. rel. with mauritania, this should of course be changed in this article. I do not know if it should be cited why and when this happened, since it is in the main foreign relations page. If this is the case, then maybe in the Conflicts and Peace Treaties section?( Petterf ( talk) 07:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC))
The lead has too much history and some of it is poorly written. I suggest removing all history from the lead. Telaviv1 ( talk) 20:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Removal of all history would not comply with policy, since such a large portion of the article deals with it. The quality may depend on what is considered necessary for inclusion, and then the necessary machinations needed to present it neutrally. Currently, that balance is quite reasonable. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 00:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--This wording is pretty suspect... "The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Biblical Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism since ancient times,[8][9] and the heartland of the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah." This strikes me as odd...how can a physical state have it's "roots" in an arguably mythical land? Maybe a less contentious wording would be something like "THE IDEA of the modern state of israel...etc.."
Also:
" The Israelis were subsequently victorious in both confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has fought a series of wars with many of the Arab countries, resulting in decades of violence that continues to this day.[13] Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries and right to exist have been disputed, mainly by its Arab neighbors. "
This reeks of bias, the use of "victorious" in the sense of expanding their borders beyond what was internationally recognized as a fair division...You don't get to be VICTORIOUS in illegal occupations..you get to be..."successful"..or maybe "despite international condemnation, Israel started a move to occupy territory and illegally commence building settlements there.."
The argument that the history portion needs to stay "as-is" to allow for neutrality, is suspect and ill-intentioned, I believe...seeing as how the section is ANYTHING but neutral. GolemCatcher ( talk) 19:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--umm...You're not reading my points..my argument is that it seems irresponsible to say that the state of Israel is founded in a biblical reference..it's almost discrediting the validity of Israel, seeing as any bible should be viewed very openly as MAYBE NOT BEING TRUE... --and your second point just conveniently ignores MY point, which is:"Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action were defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not." (which I just lifted from a wikipedia article, as it states my point better than I do)..so Victory in this case means a clear transgression in the eyes of a good chunk of the world..(not just ARAB countries) so i reiterate that I think that wording shows CLEAR bias, and is not appropriate.
GolemCatcher ( talk) 19:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--just for the record, ONCE AGAIN you refuse to face the actual argument, while trying to distract with semantic diversions...I re-iterate: "Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action were defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not."
Can you not read?
-This- wikipedia "article" does not just claim Israel as "victorious" in the War...it claims it as "victorious" in having extended its claims farther than most countries view as justified, or "LEGAL"..and I find that offensive in this context..i.e: a supposedly neutral resource.
If you care to rebut, please rebut maturely and insightfully, instead of just as a knee-jerk reaction..
GolemCatcher (
talk)
23:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
--hmm..I agree with you about the "not reading" part, that was out of hand (sorry)..although I guess I felt your statement "I'm not interested in your legal analysis" sort of came off as obnoxious, although perhaps it was not intended as such..? otherwise, maybe it's simply that "victorious" seemed inappropriate UNLESS you are of the mind that Israel specifically SET OUT to expand it's boundaries, which I had not necessarily thought was the case, nor has it generally been reported as the case. Accepting pre-meditation, then yes, victorious seems like a proper choice of words. 70.30.249.99 ( talk) 21:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
--I have to say that it's fascinating to watch the evolution of this article, through discourse, and sometimes Consensus... First, I have to say that I think the point of "militarily" in that context is to distinguish between the fact that Israel defended its independance by force, or rather counter-force..(verifiable fact, to an extent) and "confirmed it's RIGHT to exist", which is a political/moral/philosophical? quandry..which CANNOT be solved by violence, defensive or no...and I think cannot be a "fact" in that it is rather an Opinion, in a broad sense of the word.. having said that, Okedem's later proposals seem far more neutral in my eyes... GolemCatcher ( talk) 23:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
How about more history of the Jewish Brigade in WWII, which was raised with the support of the Hagannah, and served as part of the British Eighth Army in North Africa and Italy? This unit was crucial in the formation of the IDF, and has been described as the Brigade with dual alleigance (to the Allies and the Jewish Agency). Also more about the Irgun, Hagannah and Lehi (or Stern Gang) 08:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noel Ellis ( talk • contribs)
It's a well established fact that Israel defence forces, along with religious extremists in Israel have been pushing the Arab poppulation out of israel illegaly. I dont understand why the article doesnt point out the human right violations, illegal land grabs, and culteral genocide of native Iisraelis? The Israel article comes off as incredibly biased and one sided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.100.154.212 ( talk) 17:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Why would there be a mention of the undoubted persecution in many of the 'Arab' states prior to the 1950s - such a mention should be in the articles about those states, and I for one would support such mention. However this article is about Israel and so throwing accusations about the 'Arab' countries as a response to negative comments about Israel is immaterial. If there is evidence to support claims that Israel discriminated against Arabs (and Genocide is clearly too strong a term) then I think mention should be made of it. EoinBach ( talk) 00:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Might as well add what the Arab extremist are doing in Israel...then it would be at least fair and square...lol... Norum ( talk) 13:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Since there are heavy emotions involved it may be hard to remain neutral. But surely it is possible to not completely ignore all the bloodshed and report this in a matter of fact way. This is probably a bit awkward, but I agree that Wikipedia does well to remain neutral; There are enough non-neutral sources around. You don't need to discuss whether the bloodshed (either side of the conflict) is justified (I believe it neither is), but you can still describe the vicious cycle of retaliatory action. It requires insight and leadership to overcome this cycle of violence. It also requires the world to be well informed, since we cannot wait for the 'chosen leaders' to choose to transcend from their long history violence at their own pace.
Right now I feel that this article is very non-neutral by omitting important information on the actions of Israel. Regardless of what people may think of them, it would be 'neutralizing' to at least list them. I'd say both sides have to agree with the facts. Whenever I hear of body counts of both sides, I hear vastly larger numbers of Palistinians than from Israel. This objective information helps me form my own opinion about whether there is anything at all legitimate about what's happening in this conflict. Why am I not seeing any of this information? If you feel that it would spur heavy debates, don't think that this is because it's not neutral. Being confronted with facts historically has caused enough riots, bans, etc. That doesn't mean that we should be ignorant! (slightly off-topic) If so we should still consider the world as being flat. Okay, Friedman tells us this is not far from the truth anymore. (/off-topic)
-- EdB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.200.8 ( talk) 00:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Is there enough interst, or consensus from respective parties to start a new section called "Controversies"? For one, I want to address and examine the dynamics of the US/Israel relationship as it is being precieved and shaped with events like the Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal, John Mearsheimer's and Stephen Walt's book "The Israel Lobby", over a dozen vetoes by the US in the UN Security on behalf of Israel (arguably made in Israel's defence of violations of international law), the effectiveness of the neo-con movement in brining us to war with Iraq under false pretenses and it's relatoinship/ties to the American/Jewish power structure, to name some of the more well known events. There is enough dialouge and research out there concerning the topics I've listed and others as well, for reliable sourcing and I believe the subject matter is very relevant. Although these controversies do not individually constitute an excistential threat to Israel, the culmination of controversies have begun to crack the very old perception that "What's good for Israel is good for the US" and vice versa. Other controvercies like Sabra, Shatila, the destruction of private property, confiscation of private property, second hand status of non-Jewish Israli citizens, etc... may also be included. Like a list of links to the articles that already excist in Wikipedia for the subjects I sugested. Because of Israel's unique relationship to the US, the degree of influence the ethnicly Jewish population exerts over US foreign policy, media, and economic matters there is a growing interest in Israel and that unique relationship. I'm not Jewish, and I'm concerned that the nature of the content I've suggested will be precieved as non-npov. On the other hand for reasons I've stated, I think there is a real consideration here. Israel is as about as controversial as you can get these days, and to not acknowledge that is literally like ignoring the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 06:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
This article is about a country, and I do not really think that a "controversies" section would be appropriate. There is likely a separate page dealing with that kind of stuff. Tad Lincoln ( talk) 06:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, Israel is a specail case, and I wouldn't have suggested it if I did'nt think it was appropriate. Since you didn't explain why you think it's innappropriate, I'll assume because it would be outside the normal format used for articles about countries. What's going on in Israel is outside the normal format for US allies, let alone 1st world developed countries. Never has a country so closley tied to the interest of the US been involved in such controversy. It is historical. I just wanted to make a suggestion. Because, like I said, it's the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room. I mean, it's all there. I hope there will be more disscussion about this. Thanks for the feedback anyways. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 07:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
No, they are not false, you may think they are however, and that is why they are called controversies. And I don't think I'm confusing US Jews with Israel (whatevr that means) I read an article in Harpers about 8 months ago about individuals like you. Or maybe like you. The article was a transcript of email corespondences that alluded to the 'infilltration' of Wikipedia by Jews and an effort by them to attain the rank of senoir editor, or whatever its called, so they could effectively shape the debate surrounding the very controversies we are disscussing. If you can find it you should read it. It's pretty funny. Look, I'm very concerned with the well being of anyone who doesn't want to kill me or enslave me. I just think it's becoming disengenuous and dangerous to continulay whitewash and appologize for a growing list of outrageous controversies that under only slightly different cirmcumstances would be vigorously debated and disscussed. The controversies I'm primarly speaking of deal with Israel's relationship with the US. Honestly if enough contributors don't see the validity for a new section to this article that's fine. I just don't want the idea smothered by people who are unable to be objective. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 07:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks all very much for your input and suggestions. Will look into it. Avidreaderofhistory ( talk) 08:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I have made [6] the following edit to the lede for the Nov ’47 to May ’48 period (three sentences); it currently reads:
Discussions please, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 04:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
While it is true taht those who declared independece were mostly "zionists" the term is misleading since it was not the zionist movement that declared indpendence, but the Jewish Agency for Palestine which would have also included non-zionist ultra orthodox members like agudat israel. I think the Zionist movement was led by Weizmann and he did not declare indepdence: his signature does not appear on the delcaration. Telaviv1 ( talk) 07:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Everything you say is speculation. The Jewish Agency executive took decisions democratically and as far as I can remeber the decision to declare a state was taken by a vote. Ben-Gurion did not simply issue decrees. Too get ultr-orthodox support he agreed to make marriage and who-is-a-jew subject to rabbincial control. He also inserted a reference to divine sanction ("the rock of Israel") in the declaration of independence and made orthodx jews exempt from military service.
I will investigate and see what I can find on this issue but I think you will find that there was Jewish unity on the subject of a state. The fact that we argue loudly does not mean we are not one family.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 22:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, it wasn't the Jewish Agency it was the Jewish National Council. The Zionist General council voted 40 to 18 in april 47 to create a national comittee which had the task of running the country. its complex and I ahvent got the full story. Agudat Israel boycotted the elections but agreed to join as they beleived the Arabs would slaughter them (the 1929 pogrom establhsied that they were the first ones to get it when trouble arose and that they needed the zionists to protect them).¬¬¬¬
Palestine's Jews is more appropriate then zionists as these were the elected representatives of palestine's jews. Palestine's Zionists is also OK, you cold try the elected representatives of palestine's Jews and zionists. Telaviv1 ( talk) 16:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The section of the article currently titled Occupied Territories is a biased POV. Edits should be made to change it back to the original titled Disputed Territories or include both labels. The west bank, golan heights, and Jerusalem have been annexed by Israel and their status under international law conflicts with Israel's position. The Gaza strip, as of the 2005 disengagement is separately disputed because of a continuing blockade and the current conflict with Hamas. Comments or suggestive remarks only please, plenty of other sections to continue pro and anti-Israel banter thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 ( talk) 14:31, 25 February 2009 (UTC) (I've created an account so that I can be identified in discussions. Avinyc ( talk) 17:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Occupied is probably the most accurate term for the section title, as well as being more informative, factual and widely used internationally. I admit that it might not be politically correct in the NPOV Wiki-world, but since these specific territories occur in the geography of this particular (Israel) article, I think this internationally accepted factual term is more appropriate. There is no dispute that the land is disputed, and no dispute that certain specific factions prefer to use the term 'disputed'. 'Disputed' is also seen by many others as POV'ly euphemistic. I believe this section is the perfect place to discuss this specifically, but not in the title. I also note a distinction is made above between 'occupied' and 'not under [military] occupation administration'. This also seems somewhat an internal fine point, since those specific distinctions ( Jerusalem Law and Golan Heights Law) are not internationally recognized either. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 09:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
The fact that this conversation is even taking place is proof that the territories should be called 'disputed'. Today most of the original territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are no longer occupied, and even if you only focus on the West Bank and Golan Heights, there are still areas which are not occupied. It's a very complicated matter and the best way to deal with it is use a 100% neutral term, which is 'disputed'. I think we can all agree that the territories in question are disputed. --
Ynhockey (
Talk)
09:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I think the best thing to do here is to change the name to "disputed territories", and then, if people feel it necessary, to note, in the section, that the UN classifies these territories as "occupied". Tad Lincoln ( talk) 01:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
One critical point is that Wikipedia calls things by the name they are known by, not by the term editors prefer, consensus or not. (Wiki us not a democracy.) Google hits for "'occupied territories' +Israel": 875,000; for "'disputed territories' + Israel":34,000. RomaC ( talk) 22:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
this problem could be circumvented by calling it soemthing like "Territories occupied by Israel in the Six Day War" or "Territories conquered by Israel in the Six Day War" Telaviv1 ( talk) 09:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I've read through this talk section. So, in a nutshell the argument being advanced is that changing 'occupied' to 'disputed' here (and by extension, globally in WP in all I-P article titles, subheadings, text etc) we will increase compliance with
WP:V,
WP:NPOV,
WP:DUE,
WP:COMMONNAME,
WP:NCON and probably others that I can't think of.
hmmm...
Has this issue really never been subject to a dispute resolution before ?
Sean.hoyland -
talk
11:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the "factual", "disputed" and "accuracy" approach is problematic in context of Israel. One could argue, that in "factual" and "accurate" terms in contrast to "legal" and "widely recogniced" definitions, the State of Israel is "disputed", since some elements do not recongice it. Thus it would be "accurate" and "factual" to use the term "disputed" in context of Israeli regions more broadly, which is much more than questionable. Legal definitions and widely recogniced concepts might be the best way to describe the extraordinary situations in these regions, because the definition of especially "disputed" is not clear-cut. Where do we and wikipedia draw the line in "factual", "accuracy" and especially "disputed"? Does these definitions exist? Pprkl007 ( talk) 23:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to put forth my original request that is described in the first comment of this section to rename the "Occupied Territories" section to "Disputed Territories." Disputed Territories, in my opinion, covers the notion of occupied and conquered while also giving a NPOV title to the arguments within the section. There has not been any definitive argument other than a popular google search showing that the title should remain as is. Since my suggestion is valid and neutral, unless there is something new to add to this topic, can we move forward with the changes? There have not been any comments posted over a week so I would like to see the article edited before the bots archive this section. Avinyc ( talk) 16:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Should I or someone else rename the section, or would that start a revert war? Just looking for a way to progress this discussion to a resolution. Avinyc ( talk) 20:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps Wikipedia should reproduce the views of the government of Israel? While discussing the property right of Israelis evacuated from the Gaza Strip, the Court stated:
"This property right is limited in scope . . . most Israelis do not have ownership of the land on which they built their houses and businesses in the territory to be evacuated. They acquired their rights from the military commander, or from persons acting on his behalf. Neither the military commander nor those acting on his behalf are owners of the property, and they cannot transfer rights better than those they have. To the extent that the Israelis built their homes and assets on land which is not private ('state land'), that land is not owned by the military commander. His authority is defined in regulation 55 of The Hague Regulations. . . . The State of Israel acts . . . as the administrator of the state property and as usufructuary of it . . . " (Id., paragraph 127 of the opinion of the Court).
... ...
B. The Normative Outline in the Supreme Court's Caselaw
1. Belligerent Occupation
14. The Judea and Samaria areas are held by the State of Israel in belligerent occupation. The long arm of the state in the area is the military commander. He is not the sovereign in the territory held in belligerent occupation (see The Beit Sourik Case, at p. 832). His power is granted him by public international law regarding belligerent occupation. The legal meaning of this view is twofold: first, Israeli law does not apply in these areas. They have not been "annexed" to Israel. Second, the legal regime which applies in these areas is determined by public international law regarding belligerent occupation (see HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al. (yet unpublished, paragraph 3 of the opinion of the Court; hereinafter – The Gaza Coast Regional Council Case). In the center of this public international law stand the Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague, 18 October 1907 (hereinafter – The Hague Regulations). These regulations are a reflection of customary international law. The law of belligerent occupation is also laid out in IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949 (hereinafter – the Fourth Geneva Convention). The State of Israel has declared that it practices the humanitarian parts of this convention. In light of that declaration on the part of the government of Israel, we see no need to reexamine the government's position. We are aware that the Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice determined that The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the Judea and Samaria area, and that its application is not conditional upon the willingness of the State of Israel to uphold its provisions. As mentioned, seeing as the government of Israel accepts that the humanitarian aspects of The Fourth Geneva Convention apply in the area, we are not of the opinion that we must take a stand on that issue in the petition before us." see HCJ 7957/04 Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel
The Court recently mentioned the disputed rights of Israelis evacuated from Amona:
It is a general principle that "a person must decide in his heart whether to seek the court’s assistance or to take the law into his own hands. A person cannot do these two things at once..." (HCJ 8898/04 Jackson v. Commander of the IDF Forces in Judea and Samaria (unreported 28 October, 2004). For the most recent ruling pertinent to this judgment see HCJ 851/06 Amona Farmer’s Co-operative for communal settlements Ltd. v. Minister of Defense (not yet published, 29 January, 2006); HCJ 6102/04 Moadi v. Minister of the Interior (unreported 26 September, 2005) HCJ 1547/07 Bar Kohva v. Israel Police (not yet published, 11 July, 2007). The court shall not open its doors to those who have taken the law into their own hands, deride the provisions of the law and seek to put before the Authority a fait accomplis. The prohibition on taking the law into one’s own hands falls under the rubric of the broader general principle that requires that a litigant who applies to the court for its assistance come with clean hands, (see for example HCJ197/81 Friedman v. Mayor of Eilat, Piskei Din 36(2) 425 (1982), HCJ 212/56 Slonimsky v. Petah Tikva Municipality, Piskei Din 11 446, 448 (1957); D”N 19/68 Petah Tikva Municipality v. Minister of Agriculture, Piskei Din 23 (1) 253 (1969); HCJ 609/75 Israeli v. Mayor of Tel Aviv – Yafo, Piskei Din 30(2) 304 (1976). The subject under discussion falls under the principle that has been defined as a threshold cause in the matter of applying to the High Court of Justice or the Administrative Court. A litigant who acts with unclean hands will find that his petition is summarily dismissed without his claims being heard on the merits. extracted from HCJ 3483/05 D.B.S. Escort Services Ltd. Et al v. Minister of Communications et al, cited in HCJ 3170/07, HaMoked et al vs The State of Israel et al
harlan ( talk) 06:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
The Court has ruled that Judea and Samaria are being held in belligerent occupation, and furthermore that Israeli rights in Judea and Samaria are limited to those of a belligerent occupying power in accordance with the provisions of the Hague IV Convention of 1907. Judge Meir Shamgar's ruling regarding the Rights and Duties of the Occupying Power under Articles 43 and 49 of the Hague Regulations in HC 69/81 Bassil Abu Aita v. The Regional commander of Judea and Samaria is much more convincing than the theoretical opinion he expressed in "The Observance of International Law in the Administered Territories," Israel Yearbook on Human Rights, Y. Dinstein (ed.), 1971. harlan ( talk) 06:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)to order State and local authorities and the officials and bodies thereof, and other persons carrying out public functions under law, to do or refrain from doing any act in the lawful exercise of their functions. see Basic Law: The Judiciary.
Alright, there seems to be a standstill for no reason with this section. If anyone is against changing the title, then we should ask for the 3rd opinion mentioned or a dispute resolution. I believe enough time has lapsed waiting for everyone to make their case on this talk page. If the only way to reach a conclusion is to move ahead and change the title now, then I or someone else will make the changes. We can start a new talk discussion on changing the title back to Occupied from Disputed if that suits the editors. Avinyc ( talk) 13:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
14. The Judea and Samaria areas are held by the State of Israel in belligerent occupation. The long arm of the state in the area is the military commander. He is not the sovereign in the territory held in belligerent occupation (see The Beit Sourik Case, at p. 832). His power is granted him by public international law regarding belligerent occupation. The legal meaning of this view is twofold: first, Israeli law does not apply in these areas. They have not been "annexed" to Israel. Second, the legal regime which applies in these areas is determined by public international law regarding belligerent occupation (see HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al. (yet unpublished, paragraph 3 of the opinion of the Court; hereinafter – The Gaza Coast Regional Council Case). see HCJ 7957/04 Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel
harlan ( talk) 19:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
An unauthorized outpost is a settlement which does not fulfill at least one of the above mentioned conditions. And I must emphasize: an unauthorized outpost is not a “semi legal” outpost. Unauthorized is illegal.
UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 support the claim of Disputed Territories. The government of Israel declares that they are disputed and not occupied. Since the UN resolutions do not declare Israel is occupying these territories plus the fact that Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to Israel since there was no sovereign power ruling over the land before it was mandated, there is a strong argument that they are not occupied. The only neutral term between Occupied and Not Occupied is Disputed. Avinyc ( talk) 03:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
LoiPolloi ( talk) 18:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
It was from occupied territories that the Resolution called for withdrawal. The test was which territories were occupied. That was a test not possibly subject to any doubt. As a matter of plain fact East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan and Sinai were occupied in the 1967 conflict. It was on withdrawal from occupied territories that the Resolution insisted . . . Much play has been made of the fact that we did not say "the" territories or "all the" territories. But that was deliberate. I myself knew very well the 1967 boundaries and if we had put in "the" or "all the" that could only have meant that we wished to see the 1967 boundaries perpetuated in the form of a permanent frontier. This I was certainly not prepared to recommend.
What were the 1967 boundaries? They were no more than the cease-fire borders decided nearly two decades previously. They were based on the accident of where exactly the Israeli and the Arab armies happened to be on that particular night . . . Knowing as I did the unsatisfactory nature of the 1967 line I was not prepared to use wording in the Resolution which would have made that line permanent. Nevertheless it is necessary to say again that the overriding principle was the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" and that meant that there could be no justification for annexation of territory on the Arab side of the 1967 line merely because it had been conquered in the 1967 war. The sensible way to decide permanent "secure and recognized" boundaries would be to set up a Boundary Commission and hear both sides and then to make impartial recommendations for a new frontier line, bearing in mind, of course, the "inadmissibility" principle. --from U.N. Security Council Resolution 242, a case study in diplomatic ambiguity, Published in 1981, Institute for the Study of Diplomacy, Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service, Georgetown University (Washington, D.C), pp. 9-13, cited in Palestine and the law, By Musa E. Mazzawi, page 210-211