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Why did the UN General Assembly have the authority to approve a partition plan without Arab approval? Shouldn't this information be included? SGW 19:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please delete the string of expletives at the beginning of "Historical Roots"? 67.107.136.70 21:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The St. Brice's Day massacre of all Danes living in England on the orders of the Anglo-Saxon king Ethelred the Unready. The Expulsion of Jews from France by Philip Augustus. March 14, 1181, King ordered the Jews arrested in all their synagogues, and despoiled of their money and their vestments. April, 1182, he published an edict of expulsion and confiscated immovable property, such as houses, fields, vines, barns, and wine-presses. Synagogues were converted into churches, and the confiscated goods were immediately converted into cash. The Edict of Expulsion, given by Edward I of England in 1290, exiled the Jews from England for 350 years. The Alhambra decree, issued by Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, ordered the expulsion of all Jews from Spain and its territories and possessions by July 31, 1492. Heavy taxes were inflicted and many others were killed or forced to convert to Catholicism.The expulsion of the Jews from Sicily occured at around this time. 1497, Manuel I of Portugal passed a decree demanding all Jews to convert to Christianity, or to leave the country, after taxing them heavily. 5,000 Jews massacred in Lisbon in 1506, and the later establishment of the Portuguese Inquisition in 1536. ha ha ha I wrote this above.to tell u that christain wont let these poor jews so they sent them to more poor pals ,and everyone seems to be happy.
Someone should mention the racially-based nature of Israeli citizenship. Palestinians are not full citizens of the state of Israel even though they were the original inhabitants of the land. This policy is different from the policy of the United States towards the Native Americans because Native Americans are full citizens of the United States. This article seems very pro-Jew and anti-Palestinian. Some balance would be nice.
160.39.240.81
I just want to Notice that the right Term is "The State of Israel", and not Israel as said in the title
Surely it should be The Illegal State of... 3thought 22:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Laws defined by common and decent morals. Considering Palestine never agreed to being wiped off the map then I, personally, refuse to recougnise Israel 3thought 19:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
A small matter. It states Israel is located in Western Asia, while all the surrounding neighbors are located as the Middle East, except Egypt in Northern Africa. I'm not sure there are many "Western Asian" countries and I think this could be stated as to divert attention that it is located in the heart of the Middle East. I'm a new user, could someone change this please?
I've reverted that edit, for the reason that the source doesn't support the claim. The source only quotes what some Arabs said - it doesn't say it was actually so. And saying "serious allegations" doesn't solve that.
Saying "the natives and the immigrants" is used to push an agenda. There were quite a few Jews living in Palestine before the first Aliyah, and were just as "native" as the Arabs (and some were there from before the Arab conquests).
"with serious allegations of discrimination..." - What discrimination? By who? The zionists were but a small minority, living under the rule of the Ottoman empire.
okedem 21:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Much of Native American land was bought by the invading Europeans. Just because there is legality doesn't mean that somebody didn't get ripped off. Ciderlout, 28/11/06
"Palestineremembered", if you keep vandalising pages of Israeli related issues you will be reported. That includes turning talk pages of articles to your personal WP:SOAPBOX of false arab propaganda. Amoruso 11:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, Palestineremembered is not "vandalising" these pages. His is a valid viewpoint that represents the MAJORITY of the population in the middle east.
I'd like to submit the following facts to improve this area. Reading this section without facts and figures is contradictory to the aims of neutrality. Circa 1850 Palestine had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns. Roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews.
1849 Jerusalem Jews 895 Christians 4,804 Muslims 24,177
Gaza Jews 0 Christians 276 Muslims 30,279
Hebron Jews 54 Christians 0 Muslims 7,269
The Demographic Development of Palestine, 1850-1882, by Alexander Scholch International Journal of Middle East Studies © 1985 Cambridge University Press
1920
700,000 people
Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.
The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. [1]
Id like to ask why these figures have not ben added to this section? There's considerable discussion on Jews living in the Diaspora have sought to emigrate into Israel throughout the centuries. Yet, there is no discussion on how many were there. This is a critical ommission of evidence. Some of this evidence is presented above. If you cannot let unregistered or new users to modify the articles, (I'm not that familiar with wikipedia) how does the occasional editor get to add information to improve the article in an attempt to eliminate bias within this article?
Also, the excerpt In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nations mandate administered by Britain. is incorrect, and indicitive of the ambiguity that often leads to bias within the article. What is ommitted from the rest of the Balfour document is the component that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country". Since this is one of the key issues extending back to the 1880's and since the section placed seems to lean towards an implication of the creation of a wholly Jewish state in Palestine, there should have already been clarification in the article to remove bias. Moreover, what is actually discussed from the British mandate is that it is "not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State" -taken directly from the White Paper of 1939 [3]. This document cites the 1922 Command paper. It was also written more than a decade after the split of Transjordan and Palestine, therefore the 1939 paper is not conflating transjordan in the following excerpt. Quote below.
Section I. "The Constitution"
The ambiguity of the phrase the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people is addressed and clarified at great length by the British for very important historical and contemporaneous reasons related to the conflict before the creation of the state of Israel. Many of these important points are listed at great length within the British mandate documents, some of which I have pasted above. As it sits now, the phrase the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people omits very important clarifications provided within the Balfour document and, more importantly, the points posted above. This excerpt is admittedly long, but very important to reveal how misleading the phrase "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" is to the actual intentions of the British government.
Ill work on a replacement in a few days for everyone's scrutiny.
-Also, I would like to add that the points related to the population figures I post above should be also added in to improve the article. I'll submit those replacements here as well.
- Section from my long excerpt above "The Royal Commission and previous commissions of Enquiry have drawn attention to the ambiguity of certain expressions in the Mandate, such as the expression `a national home for the Jewish people', and they have found in this ambiguity and the resulting uncertainty as to the objectives of policy a fundamental cause of unrest and hostility between Arabs and Jews.
-Also, adding "In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nations mandate administered by Britain" was an error. I was looking to only cut and paste the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people
Let me preface this by saying not every nutcase with a different idea deserves to have their views presented as legitimate. However the user PalestineRemembered presents quite a bit of information in the discussion board. Don't write me off as some crazy revionist or NWO/Illuminati type - I just feel that a balanced view of Isreal should be presented in Wikipedia. Only presenting the "tourist brochure" version of Isreal on the main page, then seeing legitimate information brought up in the discussion that is ignored definitely piqued my interest. 209.250.215.32 14:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I Agree with Palestine remembered in this issue. Israel has been increasingly hostile in its war tactics using inhumane weapons and phosphorous that have burned childrens skin. The only reason America supports Israel is because of Israel's influence over the American government. I think of both sides of this situation and see that even though Zionists may feel justified to moving into a country due to religious beliefs, it is rather cruel to invade and take someone elses country for ones self. Today's Americans seem to think taking land away from Native Americans was cruel, while supporting the cause of Israel at the same time. Does this seem hypocritical or is it just me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssd175 ( talk • contribs)
Mr Goalie, you make a sound point about the definition of 'Palestine' but you are quite, quite wrong, with respect to your other point.
The appalling treatment of the Palestinian civilians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip breaks every international treaty in existence.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that the systematic destruction of Jenin Refugee Camp, as well as the horrific attacks, led by Sharon, on Ramallah Camp back in March 2002 were not direct attempts to cause maximum damage to a civilian population, as testimonies by IDF soldiers later revealed? What's more, I find this Wikipedia entry on 'Israel' something very close to a Government's News Management System. It would glean far more respect from web users if it was neutral. For instance, the Oslo Peace Talks didn't fail simply because of the actions of Hamas. They failed because Palestinians were sick and tired of the constistent expansion of illegal Israeli settlements. I'm coming to this as a Scotsman - a Christian - who has Jewish friends. Even THEY agree that what's happening out there isn't conducive to peace. Does the Knesset HONESTLY believe that there will be peace unless there's at least the foundation of a Palestinian state, the sharing of Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem? I think suicide bombing is appalling and I pray for the families of the dead - but what does it tell you about a people that they're willing to use the only thing they have - their bodies - to inflict maximum pain and suffering on a neighbouring people? Stand back from it all for a moment, if you can. Do you think this sort of 'enemy' can be beaten? The IRA were never beaten here in the United Kingdom. It was dialogue that led to peace in 1994, after more than 3000 deaths. The Palestinian Leadership have an awful lot to answer for as well. Arafat did NOTHING while Jenin and Ramallah were being levelled by 20foot, 60 ton D-9 IDF bulldozers in 2002. Just to finish - the only reason Hamas got elected in the first place was because the American Government insisted that elections went ahead, despite warnings from sources to wait until the following year. Some cynics may say that certain neo-cons WANTED them elected to ensure perpetual unrest in the Middle East. I feel sorry for young Israelis - but then again, as their own writer Amos Elon says, 'self deception has become a perequisite for survival.' The grinding poverty. The suffocating movement controls. The arbitrary demolition of housing. 85% of families living on $2 a day. No hope. Nothing to plan for. Nothing to do except go to funerals and throw stones at Markov tanks. This is no way to treat people living in a homeland, occupied back in 1967. Israel has an obligation to treat these people with dignity, not like sub-humans. Are we not all of the one species? Would our God approve of this meaningless slaughter on both sides?
"contrary to popular belief, israel tries not to attack civilians, unlike the militant groups that surround it." - You may not agree with this statement, but the aim of the IDF (or at least what they claim to be their aim, which shows they at least recognize the diference and importance of the matter) is to refrain from harming civilians. The surrounding militant groups send in suicide bombers to civilian areas. Also the reactions are different. When the IDF kills a Palistinian civilian, it is not seen as a feat. It was not the purpose. The parties held after an attack killing Israelis show all the difference.
KSchJ
16:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Could I ask someone to add the following interwiki link to Bosnian page [[bs:Izrael]]? -- Benjamin, 20061113
The picture in the section entitled 'Religion in Israel' with the caption 'Young Haredi men on Purim in Jerusalem' is completely inappropriate. It is not at all representative of Haredi -- or even just religious-- society and is offensive.
Unfortunately, I cannot remove this picture as I am a newly-registered user.
An appropriate replacement would be something along the lines of a street scene depicting a broad cross-section of the Orthodox-Jewish community in Jerusalem. -- Eitz Chayim 04:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I've removed that claim (which has since been restored) because without any further treatment, it's little more than a red herring. Neither this section, nor the main article, deal with this, and the reader is left without any substantial information.
The claim is discrimination is known, but is not very credible. Little, if any, evidence is ever brought by the claimers.
To make such claims would be quite silly, given the current persons in power:
Moshe Katzav, the President of Israel, was born in Iran. So was Shaul Mofaz, the vice PM, and minister of transportation (former Chief of Staff, former Minister of Defence). Dan Halutz, the current Chief of Staff, is Iranian descent. Meir Sheetrit, Min. of Housing and temporary Min. of Justice, was born in Morocco. Elli Yishai, Vice PM and Min. of Commerce/Industry/Labor is of Mizrachi descent. Amir Peretz, Vice PM, Min. of Defense was born in Morocco. Dahlia Itzik, Knesset chairman, is of Iraqi descent. Yaakov Edri, Min. of Jerusalem affairs was born in Iraq. Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, Min. of Infrastructure, was born in Iraq.
Do I need to go on?
okedem 10:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
http://www.answers.com/topic/palestinian-territories Jewish Land ownership in 1947 was no more than 6.6% of the land, not 28% as the author claims.
-Okedem: As an intrested, hopefuly neutral party, I have often seen information passed by evidently pro-palestinians like PR that make the formation of Israel into a cynical/pragmatic takeover of land - rather than denounce his ideas and demand to see source material - why don't you tell us exactly what happened. How did this area of the Middle East transfer from a (80% Muslim + 20% mixed) to a (the) Jewish State in the space of 100 years? Ciderlout
Please vote 69.156.78.50 22:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
User:okedem, the lead is not a travel or ranking guide. If you have specific objections to the changes, please raise them. Instintive, blind reversions are unhelpful. El_C 21:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
User:El C has completely rewritten the lead, and I object to this. The lead has been the focal point of several discussions here, and its form was the result of long arguments. To just come in and trample it like this is almost insulting. The only reason I'm not reverting his edit is because of 3RR.
El C - if you make changes to a stable section, and someone objects - you shouldn't force your view - you should use the talk page. While the discussions are held, the last stable version should remain. The changes need justification, and in an article as hotly debated as this, making unilateral changes is unacceptable. Go see the discussion over the lead in the archives - no point in repeating all the old arguments.
Oh, and please don't use the hidden comments for explanations - we can't have a discussion there, that's what this page is for. okedem 21:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The article is about the State of Israel whose existence has been very much defined by the Aliyas and by extension, conflict with the Arabs. This does not preclude prior Arab migration nor does it make value judgments. It's just an account as to what led to the rise of the State of Israel, which should not be censored out. Perhaps a brief mention of earlier history is warranted, though. El_C 22:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The thing is that potential conflict in Israel is always near by. For example: while in my youth, one could travel to the OT in relative safety, not to mention the cities in the Triangle, these days, things are much different and you can sarcesly find a place (save Eilat and parts of the Negev) where you can drive for 10-15 minutes without reaching a place that is not safe for the majority of the population (Israeli Jews) to be, because of the Arab-Israeli conflict. I consider that a defining feature of the country, worthy of inclusion in the lead. El_C 23:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem I see with the proposed change to the lead is that it was overly politicizing the introduction - in fact, making it essentially a polemic narrative, along the lines of "Israel is a country founded by European colonizers who invaded Palestine in the 19th and 20th centuries, and dispossessed the native Arabs, causing continuing wars. Their further occupation of Palestinian lands is causing even more misery for their victims". Again, it's expressing one particular, highly politicized political narrative, and making Israel all about that. The lead of United States doesn't talk about it European colonization and ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, and its imperialist involvement in many wars, including currently in Iraq and Afghanistan. The lead of Argentina doesn't discuss the European colonization and ethnic cleansing of the Guaraní and Mapuche, and the Dirty War and Falklands War. I realize that Israel is continually singled out for special negative treatment on the world stage, but the Wikipedia article about Israel should try to adopt a more neutral, less politicized tone, in line with article leads on all other countries. Jayjg (talk) 20:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, if we look at the lead for Germany, we see that it does not seem to mention anything about the country starting (and losing) two World Wars (surely far more significant that Israel's small local conflicts), but does mention that it is "a democratic parliamentary federal republic", "a founding member of the European Union", and "the European Union's most populous and most economically powerful member state." Brazil's lead notes that Brazil is "South America's leading economic power and a regional leader." Egypt's lead claims that it is "widely regarded as the main political and cultural centre of the Middle East." The interesting thing about Israel's lead is that rather than containing vague assertions like this, it actually has specific verifiable claims in the lead instead. If anything, it seems that the standard set for Israel is again higher than other countries. Which claims do you think are unreasonable, untrue, or not appropriate for a country article lead? Jayjg (talk) 22:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the narrative for paragraph 2 can be rephrased, but it looks farily straightforward to me:
Which is item from the above can be included? I notice that Morocco's lead at least mentions Western Sahara. Then again, I now notice that Sudan's lead dosen't even mention the Second Sudanese Civil War (more than the entire population of Palestine killed) or Darfur, which I think is worse than Israel not mentioning all of the above. I will try to attend to that. Key question is whether there is any willingness at all to bring up the origins and immediate history of the State of Israel (and a mention of prior history, Holocaust and ancient) in a paragraph or two, regardless if it's myself or Jay who writes it. All that for history and the second paragraphs, but what about my changes to the first and the third ones. Let us examine these. The changes to the first paragraphs were cosmetic, except for the population. Can we agree that there are no objections to it if the population is to be readded? (if there are, let me know) The third paragraph, as I maintained, has excess detail more suited for the body.
Again, let's address everything point by point so we can attend to all the issues comprehensively and comprehensibly. So while we discuss the obviously most heated addition (the 2nd paragraph), are there any objection to having the following lead in the meantime (please be specific):
The State of Israel ( Hebrew: , Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Western Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west. It has a population of over seven million people. [5] Israel declared independence in 1948 and is the world's only Jewish state, although Israeli citizens include many other ethnic and religious backgrounds. Israel is the most industrially advanced country in the Middle East and the region's only liberal democracy. [6]
So, let's clean up all that excess detail, and work toward expanding the intro from there. Thank you all in advance for your careful consideration. El_C 06:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Does the United States article talk about successive waves of European immigration? Does the Argentina article? As for listing all the wars, conflicts, occupation, etc., I've dealt with that already. We don't talk about these kinds of things in other country intros, and we shouldn't be singling Israel out for wildly disproportionate criticism on Wikipedia - that's the job of the U.N. and world press. Jayjg (talk) 21:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
When the lead of Syria mentions that it's a terrorist harbouring evil dictatorship state and the lead of Iran mentions that it's a country ruled by a maniac who wants to commit genocide in infidels and so on, then we will consider adding pov changes to israel's lead. Amoruso 22:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Could we stop this polemical and controversial comparative info in the lead please? Lebanon is a parliamentary democracy, so is Turkey, and both are located in the Middle East. Why are we espousing Zionist propaganda as though it is fact? Where is the source for this assertion? Why can't we simply note it is a liberal democracy and discuss its status vis-a-vis the region in detail in the body, noting the comparable systems in Turkey and Lebanon? Sorry if I sound frustrated but this has been a source of discussion for ages now (see archives) and there has never been consensus on the issue and yet the comparative formulation keeps getting reinserted in the lead despite repeated objections about its factuality. Thoughts? Feedback? Thanks. Tiamut
The only comprehensive and authoritative book in English on Israeli law is The Laws of the State of Israel. See, A Guide to the Israeli Legal System [8]. These books are available at the Library of Congress. [9]
If you Zionists agree to FAIRLY edit this page, I'll gladly go to the Library of Congress (a few blocks from my home in Zionist Wahsington, DC) and provide you with the citation to each and every racist law that exists in the State of Israel. And if you are really serious about this, I might even provide images of the actual pages from the law books as proof (because I'm sure you'll want to argue it otherwise).
Deal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.14.88 ( talk) 10:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
"Zionist" is a "slur"? New one on me. I thought Israel was proud of that term.
Would it be fair to include the statement made on 9th December 2006 by incoming U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates claiming that Israel has nuclear weapons ? : Incoming U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates suggested at a Senate confirmation hearing that Israel had atomic weapons. Gates said Iran might want an atomic bomb because it is "surrounded by powers with nuclear weapons: Pakistan to their east, the Russians to the north, the Israelis to the west and us in the Persian Gulf". ( 360aerial 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC))
Shouldn't the testimony of the hero Mordechai Vanunu be mentioned here? Baetterdoe 19:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Many of the statements in the Education statement were far from meeting the WP:NPOV standards set forth by Wikipedia. I editted the entire section to make it more NPOV.
Things like touting Israel as "most educated" and then providing a reference to a school life expectancy ranking is inaccurate, as there is more to being "most educated" than just the number of years a country's citizens attend school (countries that offer more free education to their citizens tend to have citizens who attend school longer, but that doesn't make them "more educated").
In addition, things like the number of people from Israel who attend Yale are verging on completely irrelevent. Attending Yale has as much to do with financial capability as it does with education. I left it in (albeit in a more NPOV form), but please refrain from editting that kind of information in as an attempt to characterize the population as "more educated" than the surrounding nations.
I realize Israel is a hard subject for people to remain NPOV on, but that's your responsibility when you edit Wikipedia. Please refrain from making point-of-view statements in this article. Mjatucla 02:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Israel is a post Holocaust state, and we don't see it in the article!! John Hyams 00:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This is because most people already know and it is redundant to talk about it. User:Ssd175
The last paragraph in the Human Rights section is POV if it does not have a citation. ie: "Some international human rights organizations, most notably Human Rights Watch and the United Nations' ... anti-Israel bias ... Owain Jones 14:24, 15 December 2006
Can someone please add the name of this country in most of the Muslim world is فلسطین falasteen as they do not recognize Israel as a state but an occupying force. The State of Falasteen is represented on maps throughout the Muslim world, not "Israel". It would be wise not to ignore this fact. MirzaGhalib 23:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
There's a big space that appears in the middle of HISTORY of Israel if you decide to hide the CONTENTS MENU. How can we fix that? I tried, but I couldn't do it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aceboy222 ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC).
It is my understanding, and that of many millions around the world, and of most groups and organisations that the capital of Israel is Jerusalem and so should be stated in the fact box. This should not be refrained from for anti-semetic reasons. Somethingoranother 07:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
If you ask the general public (and CIA) what the capital is, yes it is Jerusalem. However, according to the UN and most governments, Israel is capital-less. Jerusalem is still a disputed city because the Palestinians claim it to be the capital of the "future Palestine." (Which is why the UN can not recognize Jerusalem as the capital). Most people who argue that Jerusalem isn't the capital claim that Tel Aviv is. Not true. Most countries have their embassies in Tel Aviv, but niether Israel or the UN recognize it as the capital. The US has planned to move the embassy back to Jerusalem, but the presidents (past and present) have not done so. In short, Israel has not capital. Goalie1998 02:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC) Goalie1998
I agree that Jerusalem should be the internationally recognized capital, but going along with your NPOV policy, the only international body that is "truely" unbiased is the UN - its basic mission is to have NPOV. In my opinion, if you really want to be neutral, not Zionist, you can't list Jerusalem as the internationally recognized capital of Israel. And because Israel claims all of Jerusalem to be its capital, not Tel Aviv, the UN must say that Israel has none. It has been in every presidential plan to move the embassy to Israel since Clinton has been in office, but the move has been postponed every six months. While the resolutions by Congress are not binding, Congress can cease any funding to the embassy in Tel Aviv. Unfortunately, it hasn't done so. Goalie1998 21:04, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
What okedem and Amoruso say is correct. International recognition, whether by the UN or individual nations, is not required in order to designate the capital of a state. Where other nations choose to have their embassies is equally irrelevant. Usually they have them in the capital city for purposes of convenience in conducting diplomatic business. In the case of Israel they have them elsewhere for political purposes. However, I believe that Tel Aviv is only a short drive from Jerusalem anyway (those of you who have been there, or are always there, please correct me if I am incorrect), so I am sure that diplomatic business goes on, the nations of the world get to make their political statements, the UN gets to wag its finger at Israel, and everybody is happy. Well, nobody is happy, but you know what I mean. Meanwhile, the article and its footnotes -- not to mention a separate article on Positions on Jerusalem -- cover the dispute more than adequately. 6SJ7 00:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure that I agree with these suggestions that the UN is biased against Israel. The UN recognises Israel's right to exist, contrary the widely held view among other inhabitants of the Middle East. Viewfinder 02:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
[11] There are NO embassies in Burma's new capital, many countries like India explained they won't move their embassies there [12], and Burma itself told the embassies that they SHOULDN'T move and : ".....foreign and UN embassies have been told there are currently no plans for them to follow. "If you need to communicate on urgent matters, you can send a fax to Pyinmana," the foreign ministry said in its statement on Monday". (!) so what's going on here ? Amoruso 02:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I call into question the reason for the remark that Israel "is the world's only Jewish state", in the beginning of the article. There is one and only Hungarian state, Finnish state, there is just one Irish state, despite the presence of Irish communities in many countries, and just one Italian state, though Italians are found in dispersion across the globe. The remark seems aimed at invoking some specific sympathy for Israel, and even so there's little necessity for it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yuriy Krynytskyy ( talk • contribs) 03:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC).
Well, there was only one scattered people, and it obtained its statehood; by saying that it has only one state, you give an impression that it is entitled to more than one. That Israel was established "according to a specific UN resolution" doesn't provide any reason for specifically remarking it is the only state of a specific ethnicity (BTW, the 181 details the exact border of the two proposed states, and Israel was established not at all "according" to that part of the Resolution). It is not an argument that Jews have only one state while Arabs have two dozens, like it is not an argument that Arabs have 200 times more land than Jews, etc. The logic is that if Arabs have two dozens state, Jews are allowed to have at least one, - at the cost of the Arabs. Thus the Arabs are "taxed" in favour of Jews like the rich are taxed in favour of the poor, - you have too much, share with those who have nothing. Apart from all this, the comment about "the only Jewsish state" sounds simply bizarre. Yuriy Krynytskyy 00:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the text is correct, - redundantly so. It is probably important to the Jews to emphasize that Israel is the only Jewish state; to non-Jews, it may sound as redundant as "Ben Gurion wore only one pair of boots at a time". It doesn't sound neutral to me; Wikipedia may become a warehouse of sympathetic remarks of this kind. I value that Wikipedia is naturally more empathic than the dry scientific encyclopedias; but a line must be found between empathy and sympathy. I leave the passage as it is, in face of the opposition to my view. Yuriy Krynytskyy 05:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
it's worth noting that "Jewish" can refer to both an ethnicity and a religion. Judaism is considered a major world religion, and Israel is the only state with a Jewish majority (or even with a significant percentage of the population which is Jewish - the United States has something like 1 or 2 %, and pretty much anywhere else, I would guess, has less. I don't see how this fact isn't significant. The other issue is that Israel is officially defined as a Jewish state. This should be mentioned in the article as well. I think the problem with the current wording, if there is one, is that it kind of conflates these issues. Why not something along the lines of:
That seems to indicate the uniqueness of Israel as both a Jewish state and as the only majority Jewish state, without conflating these issues. john k 06:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Few points.
1). Instead of "declared independence in 1948" I'd prefer "established (founded) in 1948"; Israel's independence was quickly recognized. I'd use the "declared independence" phrase for the cases of failed or unrecognized statehood. Also, the formula of a state declaring its independence is grammatically questionable: it presumes that the state pre-existed the act and was the actor itself, while in fact the state is not the actor but the result of the act of the Declaration. The formulation from the 1948 Declaration was : "...WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT,... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE.." Thus the actor was "members of the people's council", and the Jewish state was the result of the act. Israel could not declare herself like a child cannot born itself.
2). Regarding the official definition as a Jewish state, I'd insert a brief quote from the correspondent law, whether it is the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.
3). The paragraph as it is now implicitly defines Jewishness as Judaism, - neither a common nor the official notion. Thus contrasting Jews with Muslims and Christians may be comparing phenomena of different categories; when the question of Palestine was considered internationally, the discourse was that of "Jews and Arabs", both being ethnicities, not religious groups.
I suggest the following in reference to the founding and the Jewishness of Israel:
"Established in 1948 as "a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel", Israel adheres to the policy of preserving her distinctly Jewish character." Yuriy Krynytskyy 01:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso, thanks for the comments. It came to me that a section on this issue of preserving Jewish character is needed, - confirming or refuting the allegation. There seems to be a broad agreement in Israel on the question. Israel has cited the danger to her Jewish character as the major reason for disallowing any massive Palestinian return, and the country's immigration policy is probably the most ethnically exlusivist in the world.
Yuriy Krynytskyy
03:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Could I just point out that as well as a Jewish state there are also Arab states such as the United Arab Emirates, and the League of Arab States is the umbrellla body of those ethnically defined Arab states. Might it be the case that Israel defines itself (like the UAE) as an ethnic state but because of the very small numbers of Jews worldwide (13 million approx), the history of attempted total genocide against the Jews, and the lack of any other Jewish states, this might determine the desire for the ethnnically exclusive nature of the state. As I understand it, the desire for an ethnic majority stems for the desire for national self-determination of the Jewish people after the Shoah. (
Robfoster
14:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)).
This is not a discussion of justifiability of the policy of ethnic purity of the state; I am interested in detecting whether such policy is at place in Israel, and I think it is.
If you read the הכרזת העצמאות (Declaration of Establishmnet), it pretty clearly describes Israel as being a Jewish State.
Goalie1998 07:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This article, which is apparently closed to editing, contains some strongly misleading statements, among them (in the "Historical Roots" section), "Nevertheless, the Jewish presence in Palestine remained constant," and, (in the "Zionism and Immigration" section), "Jews living in the Diaspora have sought to emigrate into Israel throughout the centuries."
In the first example, the language "Jewish presence in Palestine remained constant" suggests that similar numbers of Jewish people lived in Palestine throughout the period considered, which is false.
In the second example, the use of the word "Jews" without any modification suggests that all or at least most Jews are the subject of the sentence, but in fact very few Jews, during the period considered, emigrated to Israel. I believe the Jewish population of Palestine prior to the modern Zionist movement was well under 100,000, and less than 10% of the total population, while several million Jews lived elsewhere in the world, and indeed were often a fairly mobile population while rarely having Israel as a destination. -- DLH —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.82.9.62 ( talk) 19:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC).
Well, this article has remained misleading for almost two days now. It reflects poorly on Wikipedia. -- DLH
Making a note about a persistent Jewish minority in Palestine could invoke an image of a divided society; Palestine remained thru centuries almost entirely Arab in population and language, Jews constituting probably less than 5% and rising to 7% by early 20th century. Just mentioning a constant Jewish presence would suffice to make the point that there always lived some Jews on that land. Yuriy Krynytskyy 00:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
That's the difficulty of disentangling history of Palestine from history of Israel. The common international view is that there was no Israel between 2nd century (even if we call Judea "Israel") and 1948. In that case, there is nothing to talk about in this time span in the article of "Israel". Jews will persist in calling Palestine "Eretz Yisrael" at any historical period, and incorporate Byzantine, Caliphate, and Ottoman periods of Palestine into the history of ISrael. Then there is another distinction, - between "Land of Israel" and "State of Israel". Yuriy Krynytskyy 21:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, and I expect a lot of people are going to dislike this a lot, if a lot of the history is to be included, in order to show "the historical connection of Jews to Israel," as Okedem put it, it should be mentioned that the Jews originally came to the territory as invaders, and expelled or subjugated the original inhabitants. Sorry, but that's the truth, and if the article insists on going on and on about all these connections, it should at least mention that, too. -- DLH 69.19.14.44 15:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Zero0000, that sounds like original research. What source claims that Jews did not become a minority for a couple of hundred years after the expulsions? (For that matter, what source claims that there were always Jews living in the territory? I suspect that there were, but I've never seen any concrete claims for it.) -- DLH 69.19.14.44 15:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The importance is the constant presense which no one denies. Even though the jewish population declined it was of major importance to Jewish culture. The Jerusalem Talmud, the signing of the Mishnah, the niqqud, the kabalah, it all happened in the land of Israel. Amoruso 12:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The article should reflect a neutral view, including the different views. I think an agreed worldwide view should precede a single view in this case.
I suggested to set Tel Aviv as the capital in the template. and to make the comment (1) about the Israeli view. ( Borhan0 17:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC))
1) Those countries do not see Tel Aviv as the capital, they just set their embassies there, so it's not relevant. The only possible capital is Jerusalem. 2) This discussion went on also on the Burma article, and there's a footnote there too. No problem. Amoruso 12:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It says Isreal is 3rd in the world in % of people with university degrees, after the US as numbere 1?!? Where are you getting this information? Most western European countries havea higher percentage than the US does...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.41.170.136 ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
Learn to spell
Egypt's postwar peace moves brought back the Sinai (the Camp David accords), and the removal of Egypt from the Arab-Israeli conflict changed the balance irrevocably. Then in 1982 Israel attacked Lebanon: pushing through Palestine Liberation Organization forces with ease, the Israelis soon engaged the Syrians there, crushing their air defenses with methods anticipating the "information warfare" or "military-technical revolution" demonstrated in the Gulf War a decade later. Ironically, for all their military success against Arab armies, in the late 1980s the Israelis found themselves at a loss when confronted with the spontaneous uprising of Palestinian civilians known as the Intifada. In the wake of the Gulf War and the collapse of the Soviet Union, these events, combined with grudging Arab recognition of Israel's lasting presence, sparked new developments in the peace process. The signing of the Declaration of Principles in 1993 inaugurated a new era of relations between Israelis and Palestinians, followed in 1994 by the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty. Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese continue, holding out the prospect that the age of the Arab-Israeli Wars may finally be over.--HIZKIAH ( User • Talk) 17:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The current map shows Kosovo as being an independent country. Can someone please change this as Kosovo is a region of Serbia. Also the West Bank and Gaza Strip should be coloured a pale shade of red as they are a semi part of Israel. Somethingoranother 07:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree that it is wrong re Kosovo, although it is not wrong in the "de facto" sense and may become correct in the future. Viewfinder 09:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, sorry for having a 'hot head' on the subject. I've been editing wikipedia for a year and have only recently got an account. I am determined to make use of my account. The current population figure, around eight million, includes the West Bank. However, as many nations recougnise the West bank as either (a) Palestinian or (b) Non-Israeli is there any other source from which we can get a more accurate population level? 3thought 20:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gNd9odDD-cw http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOygGByj4OE http://youtube.com/watch?v=DTVazzSz8_k
You forgot to say that Israel recieves 8-10 milion dolars every single day!
Let's see how objective wikipedia is, and will this be added to Israel's hystory! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elektrofloyd ( talk • contribs) 08:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC).
Thank you for that demonstration of vile propaganda. Schrodingers Mongoose 01:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted a paragraph in the opening of the article; this was promptly re-inserted by another user. The text is: "Israel is a democratic republic with universal suffrage that operates under the parliamentary system. According to the international data reported by Freedom House, the degree of political rights and civil liberties in Israel makes it the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, consisting of a multi-party system and separation of powers"
I believe I had good reasons for removing it:
(1) The very same text - verbatim - is repeated later in the article. This is reason enough for deleting it from the opening. Without citing chapter and verse of Wikipedia policies, obviously a well-written article cannot be repetitious.
(2) A conclusionary statement about civil liberties is ipso facto a value-judgment. This is obviously going to be endlessly controversial whatever the country involved (see point (3) below). It is churlish to place this kind of comment right up there in the introduction. Common/significant views about political rights are much better dealt with (less tersely) under the Government heading. I myself do not seek to contest the view that Israel has a high degree of political freedom, so if you disagree with me, deal with the point I make about the reasonableness of reporting this sort of evaluation in the opening of *any* country article.
(3) Where the very same text appears in the Government section, it is immediately followed by a contrary viewpoint, which the author(s) of this section thought was equally significant: "Conversely, the research group Minorities at Risk (MAR) characterizes Israel's system ..." This gives a nice indication of how controversial the Freedom House opinion is, or at least appears to be to other Wikipedians. Indeed, I'd like to ask: does the person who reverted my deletion of the same text from the opening think that its stupid to allign the Freedom House statement with opposing viewpoints (maybe because the Freedom House statement is 'incontrovertible', or whatever), and if so why did he/she not remove the 'Minorities at Risk' comment from the Government section?
(4) The text is a quote from Freedom House, which is widely regarded as a US-lead, organisation operating to promote a particular policy programme. The Times (hardly a fringe opinion) has described it as an "outpost of American soft power": [13]. Unlike, say, the Human Development Index there is hardly any global consensus support for its reports. Giving its views such decisive prominence - treating them as the bottom-line on the country's political status by placing them in the opening - seems unencyclopaedic.
I suggest that unless consensus forms against me on this, I should remove the offending text from the introduction. There's presumably no objection to the same text being under the Government section (as it currently is - as well). -- Danward 21:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
"Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status."
planned by who? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.229.72.16 ( talk) 04:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
The section on Israel's culture currently begins "The culture of Israel is inseparable from long history of Judaism and Jewish history which preceded it." Given that 20% of the population is arabic (ie Muslim och Christian) this seems an incorrect statement to make. In fact, nowhere does the section on culture mention the arabic population of the country. I think the text should me ammended to better portray this. Regards Osli73 01:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I see there's a cleanup tag regarding article length but I didn't find discussion about it here. It seems like the history section is already divided into numerous separate articles, so there shouldn't be so much overview content here. Let's have a discussion or remove that too-long tag, eh? — Wknight94 ( talk) 14:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the large swastika and pro nazi dirge that some idiot had put at the top the page. Sick.
BS"D
Should we archive this page at this point?? -- Shaul avrom 22:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be best to semi-protect the article. It's under constant attack, and needs some protection. okedem 18:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Which other nation has been established at the expense of over a million displaced inhabitants who had been residents for over a thousand years? And still enjoys the diplomatic and moral legimitacy from most of the developed countries? Talking in a stictly logical sense, I can't think of any other than Israel. Any replies heartily welcome Siad 11:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Siad
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Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | → | Archive 25 |
Why did the UN General Assembly have the authority to approve a partition plan without Arab approval? Shouldn't this information be included? SGW 19:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please delete the string of expletives at the beginning of "Historical Roots"? 67.107.136.70 21:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The St. Brice's Day massacre of all Danes living in England on the orders of the Anglo-Saxon king Ethelred the Unready. The Expulsion of Jews from France by Philip Augustus. March 14, 1181, King ordered the Jews arrested in all their synagogues, and despoiled of their money and their vestments. April, 1182, he published an edict of expulsion and confiscated immovable property, such as houses, fields, vines, barns, and wine-presses. Synagogues were converted into churches, and the confiscated goods were immediately converted into cash. The Edict of Expulsion, given by Edward I of England in 1290, exiled the Jews from England for 350 years. The Alhambra decree, issued by Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, ordered the expulsion of all Jews from Spain and its territories and possessions by July 31, 1492. Heavy taxes were inflicted and many others were killed or forced to convert to Catholicism.The expulsion of the Jews from Sicily occured at around this time. 1497, Manuel I of Portugal passed a decree demanding all Jews to convert to Christianity, or to leave the country, after taxing them heavily. 5,000 Jews massacred in Lisbon in 1506, and the later establishment of the Portuguese Inquisition in 1536. ha ha ha I wrote this above.to tell u that christain wont let these poor jews so they sent them to more poor pals ,and everyone seems to be happy.
Someone should mention the racially-based nature of Israeli citizenship. Palestinians are not full citizens of the state of Israel even though they were the original inhabitants of the land. This policy is different from the policy of the United States towards the Native Americans because Native Americans are full citizens of the United States. This article seems very pro-Jew and anti-Palestinian. Some balance would be nice.
160.39.240.81
I just want to Notice that the right Term is "The State of Israel", and not Israel as said in the title
Surely it should be The Illegal State of... 3thought 22:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Laws defined by common and decent morals. Considering Palestine never agreed to being wiped off the map then I, personally, refuse to recougnise Israel 3thought 19:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
A small matter. It states Israel is located in Western Asia, while all the surrounding neighbors are located as the Middle East, except Egypt in Northern Africa. I'm not sure there are many "Western Asian" countries and I think this could be stated as to divert attention that it is located in the heart of the Middle East. I'm a new user, could someone change this please?
I've reverted that edit, for the reason that the source doesn't support the claim. The source only quotes what some Arabs said - it doesn't say it was actually so. And saying "serious allegations" doesn't solve that.
Saying "the natives and the immigrants" is used to push an agenda. There were quite a few Jews living in Palestine before the first Aliyah, and were just as "native" as the Arabs (and some were there from before the Arab conquests).
"with serious allegations of discrimination..." - What discrimination? By who? The zionists were but a small minority, living under the rule of the Ottoman empire.
okedem 21:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Much of Native American land was bought by the invading Europeans. Just because there is legality doesn't mean that somebody didn't get ripped off. Ciderlout, 28/11/06
"Palestineremembered", if you keep vandalising pages of Israeli related issues you will be reported. That includes turning talk pages of articles to your personal WP:SOAPBOX of false arab propaganda. Amoruso 11:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, Palestineremembered is not "vandalising" these pages. His is a valid viewpoint that represents the MAJORITY of the population in the middle east.
I'd like to submit the following facts to improve this area. Reading this section without facts and figures is contradictory to the aims of neutrality. Circa 1850 Palestine had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns. Roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews.
1849 Jerusalem Jews 895 Christians 4,804 Muslims 24,177
Gaza Jews 0 Christians 276 Muslims 30,279
Hebron Jews 54 Christians 0 Muslims 7,269
The Demographic Development of Palestine, 1850-1882, by Alexander Scholch International Journal of Middle East Studies © 1985 Cambridge University Press
1920
700,000 people
Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.
The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. [1]
Id like to ask why these figures have not ben added to this section? There's considerable discussion on Jews living in the Diaspora have sought to emigrate into Israel throughout the centuries. Yet, there is no discussion on how many were there. This is a critical ommission of evidence. Some of this evidence is presented above. If you cannot let unregistered or new users to modify the articles, (I'm not that familiar with wikipedia) how does the occasional editor get to add information to improve the article in an attempt to eliminate bias within this article?
Also, the excerpt In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nations mandate administered by Britain. is incorrect, and indicitive of the ambiguity that often leads to bias within the article. What is ommitted from the rest of the Balfour document is the component that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country". Since this is one of the key issues extending back to the 1880's and since the section placed seems to lean towards an implication of the creation of a wholly Jewish state in Palestine, there should have already been clarification in the article to remove bias. Moreover, what is actually discussed from the British mandate is that it is "not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State" -taken directly from the White Paper of 1939 [3]. This document cites the 1922 Command paper. It was also written more than a decade after the split of Transjordan and Palestine, therefore the 1939 paper is not conflating transjordan in the following excerpt. Quote below.
Section I. "The Constitution"
The ambiguity of the phrase the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people is addressed and clarified at great length by the British for very important historical and contemporaneous reasons related to the conflict before the creation of the state of Israel. Many of these important points are listed at great length within the British mandate documents, some of which I have pasted above. As it sits now, the phrase the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people omits very important clarifications provided within the Balfour document and, more importantly, the points posted above. This excerpt is admittedly long, but very important to reveal how misleading the phrase "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" is to the actual intentions of the British government.
Ill work on a replacement in a few days for everyone's scrutiny.
-Also, I would like to add that the points related to the population figures I post above should be also added in to improve the article. I'll submit those replacements here as well.
- Section from my long excerpt above "The Royal Commission and previous commissions of Enquiry have drawn attention to the ambiguity of certain expressions in the Mandate, such as the expression `a national home for the Jewish people', and they have found in this ambiguity and the resulting uncertainty as to the objectives of policy a fundamental cause of unrest and hostility between Arabs and Jews.
-Also, adding "In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nations mandate administered by Britain" was an error. I was looking to only cut and paste the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people
Let me preface this by saying not every nutcase with a different idea deserves to have their views presented as legitimate. However the user PalestineRemembered presents quite a bit of information in the discussion board. Don't write me off as some crazy revionist or NWO/Illuminati type - I just feel that a balanced view of Isreal should be presented in Wikipedia. Only presenting the "tourist brochure" version of Isreal on the main page, then seeing legitimate information brought up in the discussion that is ignored definitely piqued my interest. 209.250.215.32 14:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I Agree with Palestine remembered in this issue. Israel has been increasingly hostile in its war tactics using inhumane weapons and phosphorous that have burned childrens skin. The only reason America supports Israel is because of Israel's influence over the American government. I think of both sides of this situation and see that even though Zionists may feel justified to moving into a country due to religious beliefs, it is rather cruel to invade and take someone elses country for ones self. Today's Americans seem to think taking land away from Native Americans was cruel, while supporting the cause of Israel at the same time. Does this seem hypocritical or is it just me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssd175 ( talk • contribs)
Mr Goalie, you make a sound point about the definition of 'Palestine' but you are quite, quite wrong, with respect to your other point.
The appalling treatment of the Palestinian civilians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip breaks every international treaty in existence.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that the systematic destruction of Jenin Refugee Camp, as well as the horrific attacks, led by Sharon, on Ramallah Camp back in March 2002 were not direct attempts to cause maximum damage to a civilian population, as testimonies by IDF soldiers later revealed? What's more, I find this Wikipedia entry on 'Israel' something very close to a Government's News Management System. It would glean far more respect from web users if it was neutral. For instance, the Oslo Peace Talks didn't fail simply because of the actions of Hamas. They failed because Palestinians were sick and tired of the constistent expansion of illegal Israeli settlements. I'm coming to this as a Scotsman - a Christian - who has Jewish friends. Even THEY agree that what's happening out there isn't conducive to peace. Does the Knesset HONESTLY believe that there will be peace unless there's at least the foundation of a Palestinian state, the sharing of Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem? I think suicide bombing is appalling and I pray for the families of the dead - but what does it tell you about a people that they're willing to use the only thing they have - their bodies - to inflict maximum pain and suffering on a neighbouring people? Stand back from it all for a moment, if you can. Do you think this sort of 'enemy' can be beaten? The IRA were never beaten here in the United Kingdom. It was dialogue that led to peace in 1994, after more than 3000 deaths. The Palestinian Leadership have an awful lot to answer for as well. Arafat did NOTHING while Jenin and Ramallah were being levelled by 20foot, 60 ton D-9 IDF bulldozers in 2002. Just to finish - the only reason Hamas got elected in the first place was because the American Government insisted that elections went ahead, despite warnings from sources to wait until the following year. Some cynics may say that certain neo-cons WANTED them elected to ensure perpetual unrest in the Middle East. I feel sorry for young Israelis - but then again, as their own writer Amos Elon says, 'self deception has become a perequisite for survival.' The grinding poverty. The suffocating movement controls. The arbitrary demolition of housing. 85% of families living on $2 a day. No hope. Nothing to plan for. Nothing to do except go to funerals and throw stones at Markov tanks. This is no way to treat people living in a homeland, occupied back in 1967. Israel has an obligation to treat these people with dignity, not like sub-humans. Are we not all of the one species? Would our God approve of this meaningless slaughter on both sides?
"contrary to popular belief, israel tries not to attack civilians, unlike the militant groups that surround it." - You may not agree with this statement, but the aim of the IDF (or at least what they claim to be their aim, which shows they at least recognize the diference and importance of the matter) is to refrain from harming civilians. The surrounding militant groups send in suicide bombers to civilian areas. Also the reactions are different. When the IDF kills a Palistinian civilian, it is not seen as a feat. It was not the purpose. The parties held after an attack killing Israelis show all the difference.
KSchJ
16:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Could I ask someone to add the following interwiki link to Bosnian page [[bs:Izrael]]? -- Benjamin, 20061113
The picture in the section entitled 'Religion in Israel' with the caption 'Young Haredi men on Purim in Jerusalem' is completely inappropriate. It is not at all representative of Haredi -- or even just religious-- society and is offensive.
Unfortunately, I cannot remove this picture as I am a newly-registered user.
An appropriate replacement would be something along the lines of a street scene depicting a broad cross-section of the Orthodox-Jewish community in Jerusalem. -- Eitz Chayim 04:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I've removed that claim (which has since been restored) because without any further treatment, it's little more than a red herring. Neither this section, nor the main article, deal with this, and the reader is left without any substantial information.
The claim is discrimination is known, but is not very credible. Little, if any, evidence is ever brought by the claimers.
To make such claims would be quite silly, given the current persons in power:
Moshe Katzav, the President of Israel, was born in Iran. So was Shaul Mofaz, the vice PM, and minister of transportation (former Chief of Staff, former Minister of Defence). Dan Halutz, the current Chief of Staff, is Iranian descent. Meir Sheetrit, Min. of Housing and temporary Min. of Justice, was born in Morocco. Elli Yishai, Vice PM and Min. of Commerce/Industry/Labor is of Mizrachi descent. Amir Peretz, Vice PM, Min. of Defense was born in Morocco. Dahlia Itzik, Knesset chairman, is of Iraqi descent. Yaakov Edri, Min. of Jerusalem affairs was born in Iraq. Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, Min. of Infrastructure, was born in Iraq.
Do I need to go on?
okedem 10:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
http://www.answers.com/topic/palestinian-territories Jewish Land ownership in 1947 was no more than 6.6% of the land, not 28% as the author claims.
-Okedem: As an intrested, hopefuly neutral party, I have often seen information passed by evidently pro-palestinians like PR that make the formation of Israel into a cynical/pragmatic takeover of land - rather than denounce his ideas and demand to see source material - why don't you tell us exactly what happened. How did this area of the Middle East transfer from a (80% Muslim + 20% mixed) to a (the) Jewish State in the space of 100 years? Ciderlout
Please vote 69.156.78.50 22:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
User:okedem, the lead is not a travel or ranking guide. If you have specific objections to the changes, please raise them. Instintive, blind reversions are unhelpful. El_C 21:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
User:El C has completely rewritten the lead, and I object to this. The lead has been the focal point of several discussions here, and its form was the result of long arguments. To just come in and trample it like this is almost insulting. The only reason I'm not reverting his edit is because of 3RR.
El C - if you make changes to a stable section, and someone objects - you shouldn't force your view - you should use the talk page. While the discussions are held, the last stable version should remain. The changes need justification, and in an article as hotly debated as this, making unilateral changes is unacceptable. Go see the discussion over the lead in the archives - no point in repeating all the old arguments.
Oh, and please don't use the hidden comments for explanations - we can't have a discussion there, that's what this page is for. okedem 21:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The article is about the State of Israel whose existence has been very much defined by the Aliyas and by extension, conflict with the Arabs. This does not preclude prior Arab migration nor does it make value judgments. It's just an account as to what led to the rise of the State of Israel, which should not be censored out. Perhaps a brief mention of earlier history is warranted, though. El_C 22:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The thing is that potential conflict in Israel is always near by. For example: while in my youth, one could travel to the OT in relative safety, not to mention the cities in the Triangle, these days, things are much different and you can sarcesly find a place (save Eilat and parts of the Negev) where you can drive for 10-15 minutes without reaching a place that is not safe for the majority of the population (Israeli Jews) to be, because of the Arab-Israeli conflict. I consider that a defining feature of the country, worthy of inclusion in the lead. El_C 23:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem I see with the proposed change to the lead is that it was overly politicizing the introduction - in fact, making it essentially a polemic narrative, along the lines of "Israel is a country founded by European colonizers who invaded Palestine in the 19th and 20th centuries, and dispossessed the native Arabs, causing continuing wars. Their further occupation of Palestinian lands is causing even more misery for their victims". Again, it's expressing one particular, highly politicized political narrative, and making Israel all about that. The lead of United States doesn't talk about it European colonization and ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, and its imperialist involvement in many wars, including currently in Iraq and Afghanistan. The lead of Argentina doesn't discuss the European colonization and ethnic cleansing of the Guaraní and Mapuche, and the Dirty War and Falklands War. I realize that Israel is continually singled out for special negative treatment on the world stage, but the Wikipedia article about Israel should try to adopt a more neutral, less politicized tone, in line with article leads on all other countries. Jayjg (talk) 20:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, if we look at the lead for Germany, we see that it does not seem to mention anything about the country starting (and losing) two World Wars (surely far more significant that Israel's small local conflicts), but does mention that it is "a democratic parliamentary federal republic", "a founding member of the European Union", and "the European Union's most populous and most economically powerful member state." Brazil's lead notes that Brazil is "South America's leading economic power and a regional leader." Egypt's lead claims that it is "widely regarded as the main political and cultural centre of the Middle East." The interesting thing about Israel's lead is that rather than containing vague assertions like this, it actually has specific verifiable claims in the lead instead. If anything, it seems that the standard set for Israel is again higher than other countries. Which claims do you think are unreasonable, untrue, or not appropriate for a country article lead? Jayjg (talk) 22:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the narrative for paragraph 2 can be rephrased, but it looks farily straightforward to me:
Which is item from the above can be included? I notice that Morocco's lead at least mentions Western Sahara. Then again, I now notice that Sudan's lead dosen't even mention the Second Sudanese Civil War (more than the entire population of Palestine killed) or Darfur, which I think is worse than Israel not mentioning all of the above. I will try to attend to that. Key question is whether there is any willingness at all to bring up the origins and immediate history of the State of Israel (and a mention of prior history, Holocaust and ancient) in a paragraph or two, regardless if it's myself or Jay who writes it. All that for history and the second paragraphs, but what about my changes to the first and the third ones. Let us examine these. The changes to the first paragraphs were cosmetic, except for the population. Can we agree that there are no objections to it if the population is to be readded? (if there are, let me know) The third paragraph, as I maintained, has excess detail more suited for the body.
Again, let's address everything point by point so we can attend to all the issues comprehensively and comprehensibly. So while we discuss the obviously most heated addition (the 2nd paragraph), are there any objection to having the following lead in the meantime (please be specific):
The State of Israel ( Hebrew: , Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Western Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west. It has a population of over seven million people. [5] Israel declared independence in 1948 and is the world's only Jewish state, although Israeli citizens include many other ethnic and religious backgrounds. Israel is the most industrially advanced country in the Middle East and the region's only liberal democracy. [6]
So, let's clean up all that excess detail, and work toward expanding the intro from there. Thank you all in advance for your careful consideration. El_C 06:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Does the United States article talk about successive waves of European immigration? Does the Argentina article? As for listing all the wars, conflicts, occupation, etc., I've dealt with that already. We don't talk about these kinds of things in other country intros, and we shouldn't be singling Israel out for wildly disproportionate criticism on Wikipedia - that's the job of the U.N. and world press. Jayjg (talk) 21:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
When the lead of Syria mentions that it's a terrorist harbouring evil dictatorship state and the lead of Iran mentions that it's a country ruled by a maniac who wants to commit genocide in infidels and so on, then we will consider adding pov changes to israel's lead. Amoruso 22:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Could we stop this polemical and controversial comparative info in the lead please? Lebanon is a parliamentary democracy, so is Turkey, and both are located in the Middle East. Why are we espousing Zionist propaganda as though it is fact? Where is the source for this assertion? Why can't we simply note it is a liberal democracy and discuss its status vis-a-vis the region in detail in the body, noting the comparable systems in Turkey and Lebanon? Sorry if I sound frustrated but this has been a source of discussion for ages now (see archives) and there has never been consensus on the issue and yet the comparative formulation keeps getting reinserted in the lead despite repeated objections about its factuality. Thoughts? Feedback? Thanks. Tiamut
The only comprehensive and authoritative book in English on Israeli law is The Laws of the State of Israel. See, A Guide to the Israeli Legal System [8]. These books are available at the Library of Congress. [9]
If you Zionists agree to FAIRLY edit this page, I'll gladly go to the Library of Congress (a few blocks from my home in Zionist Wahsington, DC) and provide you with the citation to each and every racist law that exists in the State of Israel. And if you are really serious about this, I might even provide images of the actual pages from the law books as proof (because I'm sure you'll want to argue it otherwise).
Deal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.14.88 ( talk) 10:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
"Zionist" is a "slur"? New one on me. I thought Israel was proud of that term.
Would it be fair to include the statement made on 9th December 2006 by incoming U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates claiming that Israel has nuclear weapons ? : Incoming U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates suggested at a Senate confirmation hearing that Israel had atomic weapons. Gates said Iran might want an atomic bomb because it is "surrounded by powers with nuclear weapons: Pakistan to their east, the Russians to the north, the Israelis to the west and us in the Persian Gulf". ( 360aerial 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC))
Shouldn't the testimony of the hero Mordechai Vanunu be mentioned here? Baetterdoe 19:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Many of the statements in the Education statement were far from meeting the WP:NPOV standards set forth by Wikipedia. I editted the entire section to make it more NPOV.
Things like touting Israel as "most educated" and then providing a reference to a school life expectancy ranking is inaccurate, as there is more to being "most educated" than just the number of years a country's citizens attend school (countries that offer more free education to their citizens tend to have citizens who attend school longer, but that doesn't make them "more educated").
In addition, things like the number of people from Israel who attend Yale are verging on completely irrelevent. Attending Yale has as much to do with financial capability as it does with education. I left it in (albeit in a more NPOV form), but please refrain from editting that kind of information in as an attempt to characterize the population as "more educated" than the surrounding nations.
I realize Israel is a hard subject for people to remain NPOV on, but that's your responsibility when you edit Wikipedia. Please refrain from making point-of-view statements in this article. Mjatucla 02:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Israel is a post Holocaust state, and we don't see it in the article!! John Hyams 00:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This is because most people already know and it is redundant to talk about it. User:Ssd175
The last paragraph in the Human Rights section is POV if it does not have a citation. ie: "Some international human rights organizations, most notably Human Rights Watch and the United Nations' ... anti-Israel bias ... Owain Jones 14:24, 15 December 2006
Can someone please add the name of this country in most of the Muslim world is فلسطین falasteen as they do not recognize Israel as a state but an occupying force. The State of Falasteen is represented on maps throughout the Muslim world, not "Israel". It would be wise not to ignore this fact. MirzaGhalib 23:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
There's a big space that appears in the middle of HISTORY of Israel if you decide to hide the CONTENTS MENU. How can we fix that? I tried, but I couldn't do it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aceboy222 ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC).
It is my understanding, and that of many millions around the world, and of most groups and organisations that the capital of Israel is Jerusalem and so should be stated in the fact box. This should not be refrained from for anti-semetic reasons. Somethingoranother 07:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
If you ask the general public (and CIA) what the capital is, yes it is Jerusalem. However, according to the UN and most governments, Israel is capital-less. Jerusalem is still a disputed city because the Palestinians claim it to be the capital of the "future Palestine." (Which is why the UN can not recognize Jerusalem as the capital). Most people who argue that Jerusalem isn't the capital claim that Tel Aviv is. Not true. Most countries have their embassies in Tel Aviv, but niether Israel or the UN recognize it as the capital. The US has planned to move the embassy back to Jerusalem, but the presidents (past and present) have not done so. In short, Israel has not capital. Goalie1998 02:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC) Goalie1998
I agree that Jerusalem should be the internationally recognized capital, but going along with your NPOV policy, the only international body that is "truely" unbiased is the UN - its basic mission is to have NPOV. In my opinion, if you really want to be neutral, not Zionist, you can't list Jerusalem as the internationally recognized capital of Israel. And because Israel claims all of Jerusalem to be its capital, not Tel Aviv, the UN must say that Israel has none. It has been in every presidential plan to move the embassy to Israel since Clinton has been in office, but the move has been postponed every six months. While the resolutions by Congress are not binding, Congress can cease any funding to the embassy in Tel Aviv. Unfortunately, it hasn't done so. Goalie1998 21:04, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
What okedem and Amoruso say is correct. International recognition, whether by the UN or individual nations, is not required in order to designate the capital of a state. Where other nations choose to have their embassies is equally irrelevant. Usually they have them in the capital city for purposes of convenience in conducting diplomatic business. In the case of Israel they have them elsewhere for political purposes. However, I believe that Tel Aviv is only a short drive from Jerusalem anyway (those of you who have been there, or are always there, please correct me if I am incorrect), so I am sure that diplomatic business goes on, the nations of the world get to make their political statements, the UN gets to wag its finger at Israel, and everybody is happy. Well, nobody is happy, but you know what I mean. Meanwhile, the article and its footnotes -- not to mention a separate article on Positions on Jerusalem -- cover the dispute more than adequately. 6SJ7 00:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure that I agree with these suggestions that the UN is biased against Israel. The UN recognises Israel's right to exist, contrary the widely held view among other inhabitants of the Middle East. Viewfinder 02:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
[11] There are NO embassies in Burma's new capital, many countries like India explained they won't move their embassies there [12], and Burma itself told the embassies that they SHOULDN'T move and : ".....foreign and UN embassies have been told there are currently no plans for them to follow. "If you need to communicate on urgent matters, you can send a fax to Pyinmana," the foreign ministry said in its statement on Monday". (!) so what's going on here ? Amoruso 02:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I call into question the reason for the remark that Israel "is the world's only Jewish state", in the beginning of the article. There is one and only Hungarian state, Finnish state, there is just one Irish state, despite the presence of Irish communities in many countries, and just one Italian state, though Italians are found in dispersion across the globe. The remark seems aimed at invoking some specific sympathy for Israel, and even so there's little necessity for it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yuriy Krynytskyy ( talk • contribs) 03:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC).
Well, there was only one scattered people, and it obtained its statehood; by saying that it has only one state, you give an impression that it is entitled to more than one. That Israel was established "according to a specific UN resolution" doesn't provide any reason for specifically remarking it is the only state of a specific ethnicity (BTW, the 181 details the exact border of the two proposed states, and Israel was established not at all "according" to that part of the Resolution). It is not an argument that Jews have only one state while Arabs have two dozens, like it is not an argument that Arabs have 200 times more land than Jews, etc. The logic is that if Arabs have two dozens state, Jews are allowed to have at least one, - at the cost of the Arabs. Thus the Arabs are "taxed" in favour of Jews like the rich are taxed in favour of the poor, - you have too much, share with those who have nothing. Apart from all this, the comment about "the only Jewsish state" sounds simply bizarre. Yuriy Krynytskyy 00:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the text is correct, - redundantly so. It is probably important to the Jews to emphasize that Israel is the only Jewish state; to non-Jews, it may sound as redundant as "Ben Gurion wore only one pair of boots at a time". It doesn't sound neutral to me; Wikipedia may become a warehouse of sympathetic remarks of this kind. I value that Wikipedia is naturally more empathic than the dry scientific encyclopedias; but a line must be found between empathy and sympathy. I leave the passage as it is, in face of the opposition to my view. Yuriy Krynytskyy 05:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
it's worth noting that "Jewish" can refer to both an ethnicity and a religion. Judaism is considered a major world religion, and Israel is the only state with a Jewish majority (or even with a significant percentage of the population which is Jewish - the United States has something like 1 or 2 %, and pretty much anywhere else, I would guess, has less. I don't see how this fact isn't significant. The other issue is that Israel is officially defined as a Jewish state. This should be mentioned in the article as well. I think the problem with the current wording, if there is one, is that it kind of conflates these issues. Why not something along the lines of:
That seems to indicate the uniqueness of Israel as both a Jewish state and as the only majority Jewish state, without conflating these issues. john k 06:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Few points.
1). Instead of "declared independence in 1948" I'd prefer "established (founded) in 1948"; Israel's independence was quickly recognized. I'd use the "declared independence" phrase for the cases of failed or unrecognized statehood. Also, the formula of a state declaring its independence is grammatically questionable: it presumes that the state pre-existed the act and was the actor itself, while in fact the state is not the actor but the result of the act of the Declaration. The formulation from the 1948 Declaration was : "...WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT,... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE.." Thus the actor was "members of the people's council", and the Jewish state was the result of the act. Israel could not declare herself like a child cannot born itself.
2). Regarding the official definition as a Jewish state, I'd insert a brief quote from the correspondent law, whether it is the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.
3). The paragraph as it is now implicitly defines Jewishness as Judaism, - neither a common nor the official notion. Thus contrasting Jews with Muslims and Christians may be comparing phenomena of different categories; when the question of Palestine was considered internationally, the discourse was that of "Jews and Arabs", both being ethnicities, not religious groups.
I suggest the following in reference to the founding and the Jewishness of Israel:
"Established in 1948 as "a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel", Israel adheres to the policy of preserving her distinctly Jewish character." Yuriy Krynytskyy 01:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso, thanks for the comments. It came to me that a section on this issue of preserving Jewish character is needed, - confirming or refuting the allegation. There seems to be a broad agreement in Israel on the question. Israel has cited the danger to her Jewish character as the major reason for disallowing any massive Palestinian return, and the country's immigration policy is probably the most ethnically exlusivist in the world.
Yuriy Krynytskyy
03:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Could I just point out that as well as a Jewish state there are also Arab states such as the United Arab Emirates, and the League of Arab States is the umbrellla body of those ethnically defined Arab states. Might it be the case that Israel defines itself (like the UAE) as an ethnic state but because of the very small numbers of Jews worldwide (13 million approx), the history of attempted total genocide against the Jews, and the lack of any other Jewish states, this might determine the desire for the ethnnically exclusive nature of the state. As I understand it, the desire for an ethnic majority stems for the desire for national self-determination of the Jewish people after the Shoah. (
Robfoster
14:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)).
This is not a discussion of justifiability of the policy of ethnic purity of the state; I am interested in detecting whether such policy is at place in Israel, and I think it is.
If you read the הכרזת העצמאות (Declaration of Establishmnet), it pretty clearly describes Israel as being a Jewish State.
Goalie1998 07:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This article, which is apparently closed to editing, contains some strongly misleading statements, among them (in the "Historical Roots" section), "Nevertheless, the Jewish presence in Palestine remained constant," and, (in the "Zionism and Immigration" section), "Jews living in the Diaspora have sought to emigrate into Israel throughout the centuries."
In the first example, the language "Jewish presence in Palestine remained constant" suggests that similar numbers of Jewish people lived in Palestine throughout the period considered, which is false.
In the second example, the use of the word "Jews" without any modification suggests that all or at least most Jews are the subject of the sentence, but in fact very few Jews, during the period considered, emigrated to Israel. I believe the Jewish population of Palestine prior to the modern Zionist movement was well under 100,000, and less than 10% of the total population, while several million Jews lived elsewhere in the world, and indeed were often a fairly mobile population while rarely having Israel as a destination. -- DLH —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.82.9.62 ( talk) 19:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC).
Well, this article has remained misleading for almost two days now. It reflects poorly on Wikipedia. -- DLH
Making a note about a persistent Jewish minority in Palestine could invoke an image of a divided society; Palestine remained thru centuries almost entirely Arab in population and language, Jews constituting probably less than 5% and rising to 7% by early 20th century. Just mentioning a constant Jewish presence would suffice to make the point that there always lived some Jews on that land. Yuriy Krynytskyy 00:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
That's the difficulty of disentangling history of Palestine from history of Israel. The common international view is that there was no Israel between 2nd century (even if we call Judea "Israel") and 1948. In that case, there is nothing to talk about in this time span in the article of "Israel". Jews will persist in calling Palestine "Eretz Yisrael" at any historical period, and incorporate Byzantine, Caliphate, and Ottoman periods of Palestine into the history of ISrael. Then there is another distinction, - between "Land of Israel" and "State of Israel". Yuriy Krynytskyy 21:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, and I expect a lot of people are going to dislike this a lot, if a lot of the history is to be included, in order to show "the historical connection of Jews to Israel," as Okedem put it, it should be mentioned that the Jews originally came to the territory as invaders, and expelled or subjugated the original inhabitants. Sorry, but that's the truth, and if the article insists on going on and on about all these connections, it should at least mention that, too. -- DLH 69.19.14.44 15:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Zero0000, that sounds like original research. What source claims that Jews did not become a minority for a couple of hundred years after the expulsions? (For that matter, what source claims that there were always Jews living in the territory? I suspect that there were, but I've never seen any concrete claims for it.) -- DLH 69.19.14.44 15:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The importance is the constant presense which no one denies. Even though the jewish population declined it was of major importance to Jewish culture. The Jerusalem Talmud, the signing of the Mishnah, the niqqud, the kabalah, it all happened in the land of Israel. Amoruso 12:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The article should reflect a neutral view, including the different views. I think an agreed worldwide view should precede a single view in this case.
I suggested to set Tel Aviv as the capital in the template. and to make the comment (1) about the Israeli view. ( Borhan0 17:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC))
1) Those countries do not see Tel Aviv as the capital, they just set their embassies there, so it's not relevant. The only possible capital is Jerusalem. 2) This discussion went on also on the Burma article, and there's a footnote there too. No problem. Amoruso 12:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It says Isreal is 3rd in the world in % of people with university degrees, after the US as numbere 1?!? Where are you getting this information? Most western European countries havea higher percentage than the US does...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.41.170.136 ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
Learn to spell
Egypt's postwar peace moves brought back the Sinai (the Camp David accords), and the removal of Egypt from the Arab-Israeli conflict changed the balance irrevocably. Then in 1982 Israel attacked Lebanon: pushing through Palestine Liberation Organization forces with ease, the Israelis soon engaged the Syrians there, crushing their air defenses with methods anticipating the "information warfare" or "military-technical revolution" demonstrated in the Gulf War a decade later. Ironically, for all their military success against Arab armies, in the late 1980s the Israelis found themselves at a loss when confronted with the spontaneous uprising of Palestinian civilians known as the Intifada. In the wake of the Gulf War and the collapse of the Soviet Union, these events, combined with grudging Arab recognition of Israel's lasting presence, sparked new developments in the peace process. The signing of the Declaration of Principles in 1993 inaugurated a new era of relations between Israelis and Palestinians, followed in 1994 by the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty. Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese continue, holding out the prospect that the age of the Arab-Israeli Wars may finally be over.--HIZKIAH ( User • Talk) 17:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The current map shows Kosovo as being an independent country. Can someone please change this as Kosovo is a region of Serbia. Also the West Bank and Gaza Strip should be coloured a pale shade of red as they are a semi part of Israel. Somethingoranother 07:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree that it is wrong re Kosovo, although it is not wrong in the "de facto" sense and may become correct in the future. Viewfinder 09:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, sorry for having a 'hot head' on the subject. I've been editing wikipedia for a year and have only recently got an account. I am determined to make use of my account. The current population figure, around eight million, includes the West Bank. However, as many nations recougnise the West bank as either (a) Palestinian or (b) Non-Israeli is there any other source from which we can get a more accurate population level? 3thought 20:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gNd9odDD-cw http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOygGByj4OE http://youtube.com/watch?v=DTVazzSz8_k
You forgot to say that Israel recieves 8-10 milion dolars every single day!
Let's see how objective wikipedia is, and will this be added to Israel's hystory! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elektrofloyd ( talk • contribs) 08:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC).
Thank you for that demonstration of vile propaganda. Schrodingers Mongoose 01:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted a paragraph in the opening of the article; this was promptly re-inserted by another user. The text is: "Israel is a democratic republic with universal suffrage that operates under the parliamentary system. According to the international data reported by Freedom House, the degree of political rights and civil liberties in Israel makes it the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, consisting of a multi-party system and separation of powers"
I believe I had good reasons for removing it:
(1) The very same text - verbatim - is repeated later in the article. This is reason enough for deleting it from the opening. Without citing chapter and verse of Wikipedia policies, obviously a well-written article cannot be repetitious.
(2) A conclusionary statement about civil liberties is ipso facto a value-judgment. This is obviously going to be endlessly controversial whatever the country involved (see point (3) below). It is churlish to place this kind of comment right up there in the introduction. Common/significant views about political rights are much better dealt with (less tersely) under the Government heading. I myself do not seek to contest the view that Israel has a high degree of political freedom, so if you disagree with me, deal with the point I make about the reasonableness of reporting this sort of evaluation in the opening of *any* country article.
(3) Where the very same text appears in the Government section, it is immediately followed by a contrary viewpoint, which the author(s) of this section thought was equally significant: "Conversely, the research group Minorities at Risk (MAR) characterizes Israel's system ..." This gives a nice indication of how controversial the Freedom House opinion is, or at least appears to be to other Wikipedians. Indeed, I'd like to ask: does the person who reverted my deletion of the same text from the opening think that its stupid to allign the Freedom House statement with opposing viewpoints (maybe because the Freedom House statement is 'incontrovertible', or whatever), and if so why did he/she not remove the 'Minorities at Risk' comment from the Government section?
(4) The text is a quote from Freedom House, which is widely regarded as a US-lead, organisation operating to promote a particular policy programme. The Times (hardly a fringe opinion) has described it as an "outpost of American soft power": [13]. Unlike, say, the Human Development Index there is hardly any global consensus support for its reports. Giving its views such decisive prominence - treating them as the bottom-line on the country's political status by placing them in the opening - seems unencyclopaedic.
I suggest that unless consensus forms against me on this, I should remove the offending text from the introduction. There's presumably no objection to the same text being under the Government section (as it currently is - as well). -- Danward 21:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
"Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status."
planned by who? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.229.72.16 ( talk) 04:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
The section on Israel's culture currently begins "The culture of Israel is inseparable from long history of Judaism and Jewish history which preceded it." Given that 20% of the population is arabic (ie Muslim och Christian) this seems an incorrect statement to make. In fact, nowhere does the section on culture mention the arabic population of the country. I think the text should me ammended to better portray this. Regards Osli73 01:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I see there's a cleanup tag regarding article length but I didn't find discussion about it here. It seems like the history section is already divided into numerous separate articles, so there shouldn't be so much overview content here. Let's have a discussion or remove that too-long tag, eh? — Wknight94 ( talk) 14:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the large swastika and pro nazi dirge that some idiot had put at the top the page. Sick.
BS"D
Should we archive this page at this point?? -- Shaul avrom 22:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be best to semi-protect the article. It's under constant attack, and needs some protection. okedem 18:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Which other nation has been established at the expense of over a million displaced inhabitants who had been residents for over a thousand years? And still enjoys the diplomatic and moral legimitacy from most of the developed countries? Talking in a stictly logical sense, I can't think of any other than Israel. Any replies heartily welcome Siad 11:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Siad