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I am not sure IF I am spelling his name correctly but in the year 1949 there was a british photographer who took a color documetary film of the early israel , anyone has any info about him and his footage?
On the page, the Prime Minister Ehud Olmert inaccurately is above the President Moshe Katsav. I thought you put the head of state first, then the head of government. Can someone please sort it out? I can't because of this semi-protection (I'm a new Wikipedian). Thanks RJL 20:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Editors on this page have consistently deleted a vague listing noting a few major organizations that criticize human rights in Israel. As it stands now, there is no indication there is any criticism whatsoever. This is not a representation of the reality of the situation, and represents a severe bias. Therefore the article does not have neutrality. I suggest we work on a way to address this fairly together, so that a handful will stop hurting the article by deleting anything they see as criticism. Sarastro777 04:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop the personal attacks. "for those who wish to find fault with the State of Israel" -- we've been over this. Any "fault" is from the attributed Human Rights Groups, not the personal view of the editor. You need to work on not taking documentation of human rights issues as an individual assault from the editors working on such articles in good faith.
Humus Sapien's edit note: replaced Sarastro's cherrypicking of irrelevant groups with a variety of relevant ones, mention freedom of press within Israel)
the "irrelevant groups" he deleted were:
To say these groups are irrelevant is so funny it is hard to believe he actually expects anyone to take him credibly. Each group was followed with a specific reference to insure verifiability.
The "Freedom of the Press" is already in the main article. This out of context and isolated mention is inviting a lengthy examination of exceptions, which are already well documented. I don't see why it is helpful to go down this road. Your very smug response seems to indicate that you accept a bias issue in the section but are comfortable with it because you think the HR article contains "plenty of fodder." That viewpoint is not productive.
Sarastro777 05:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Assume Good Faith & Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks Sarastro777 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
What follows is the paragraph I added in the Human Rights section to correct the obvious bias present there:
I see no reason why User:Humus sapiens has deleted it. He justified this deletion telling that the article is not about "the conflict". Neither the AI report is (indeed, half of the cite is about a law enforced by the State of Israel, it's about domestic policy). Moreover, I find it quite absurd to consider the Human Rights' record of Israel irrespective of its role in the Occupied Territories and irrespective of the "little detail" that this country is unfortunately involved in a conflict with its Arab neighbours since its very foundation! I reversed the deletion. If I did wrong, please explain me why before redeleting it. -- MauroVan 13:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm here in response to MauroVan's
request for comment. I recognize that you all know the subject matter better than I do, but can offer some suggestions.
Thanks, and good luck, TheronJ 14:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The current version (14:45, 29 Aug, last edit by Jebus1) seems like a reasonable summary to me. 6SJ7 22:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jayig that saying "some pro-Israel" groups is poisioning the well. I strongly object to the phrase. If we are going to use that phrase, why not call the UN and the NGOs "anti-Israel"? Elizmr 22:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah right, let's turn this into a soapbox for your righteous outrage. ← Humus sapiens ну? 01:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I am responding as an outsider to the controversy, as requested. This seems to me to be a simple case. In the vast majority of nations, Israel is regarded as highly controversial because of the persistant accusations that they violate human rights. The argument that all this criticism stems from anti-Semitism is not credible. The groups listed, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc., are controversial, but anyone who follows the links will find the criticism of those groups. Therefore, the views of those groups should be included (and linked.) -- ManEatingDonut 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Hm. 10 minutes after I made a request for arbitration, Humus sapiens decided for the first time to include Amnesty International's criticism in his edit. This is a big step forward, because until now this user and his co-thinkers always did all they could to prevent any cite from Amnesty International and other blacklisted sources to appear on the page.
Unfortunately, the result isn't yet acceptable, in my opinion. Many de facto pro-Israel sources are quoted in length, while the only criticism is just given a link, followed by a sentence accusing the criticism to be biased. My proposal was to respect the advice we received from without, ie:
If Humus sapiens wants to keep all his cites (I mean: those cites he likes so much) in inverted commas, we could simply add the cite from Amnesty International too. That was precisely my original edit, but nobody seemed to like it... -- MauroVan 12:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This section is unbelievably biased. There's no mention of any human rights abuses against either Arabs or Jews. What about Ammona? (video) HOw about the raid on Toldos Aaron in 1981, the raid on Meah SHarim in 1983, the French Hill Massacre, the 2005 Passover Raid against Satmer (there's video), the beatings of Jews protesting graves being uprooted where they used tazers on the protestors faces while they sat.(also video) The article is so biased it belongs in a Hassborah site not in an encyclopedia. 88.154.158.42 19:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Is considered terrorism. I added an NPOV-tag until this issue is resolved. -- Daniel575 20:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
terrorism
ANY QUESTIONS? -- TheYmode 21:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if someone is trying to argue the IDF are terrorists for civilian deaths in Lebanon or if it is Hezbollah for the rockets. In either case, the definitions above hinge on the internal motive of the perpetrator. That is almost always hard to 'verify' and makes the label "terrorist" problematic and frequently based on the POV of the person using the word. 64.186.246.122 21:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
So... I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a factually accurate and less loaded term like "forcing civilians to leave" or "making civilians leave"? Could TheYmode or Daniel575 explain? Thanks. -- Birdmessenger 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I've come up with a description which is accurate, but which doesn't use the contentious word "terrorising". Jayjg (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Is somebody here actually trying to say that Israel is a terrorist state? No way this should be allowed. Ackoz 21:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
i agree that there are only a few israelis that do these things and that they dont act upon all of the isrealis behalf, but why is it that these few always seem to get into a position of power? Peace can only be created if israelis cooperate and the people in the government right now wont. so for all you israelis who claim not to be "zionists" its about time you do something about your country because it is causing the death of civilians on both the arab and israeli side Mac33c 15:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This should be in the portion as much as the quote from the Hossein Safiadeen. Both are notable; unless of course you think it's NPOV to put in the quote that he said about justifying the killing of women and children and calling them terrorist as much as the Arab stating "They will not make Israel safe for Israelis." Volksgeist 13:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think this quote should not be included in the article, because, veritable or not, it does not reflect the official standpoint of Israel in its conflict with Lebanon. The Israeli Defense Army's aim was all along to destroy Hezbollah's launching posts and eliminate its members. Unlike Hezbollah, the IDF warned the civilians in the areas it was about to bomb by means of leaflets dropped from aircrafts. The fact that many civilians didn't leave the attacked areas, for various reasons, and subsequently killed is another issue, and the death of civilians was unintentional. Therefore, using Ramon's slip of the tongue as a representation of Israel's standpoint puts it out of context. It is very curious indeed, Volksgeist, that you chose to quote this out of all the things said by Israel's political representatives, a quote which totally condratics the Israeli government's perception -- Lividore 22:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It sounds like you are threatening retaliatory vandalism because you disagree with what is clearly a relevant quote. Is it supposed to punish me personally that you say you are going to put a quote from Nasrallah? I am really confused by what you are trying to prove here other than you have a very strong bias. Sarastro777 23:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
So what it looks like is the reason certain people do not want the quote in is because of a personal bias towards myself. Furthermore, it seems the people complaining about it also seem to be ones who are members of Jewish groups on Wikipedia. Is because the quote displays Israel in a negative light is somehow not appropriate?
Volksgeist
00:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've rewrote the included quote and placed it inline with the comments from Hezbollah (this should appease both parties). They seem to go in par with each other. I've realized that when it comes to articles relating to Israel and Judaism, Wikipedia is hardly a place for a NPOV as articles will be reverted and Wikipedia administrator members of the "Judaism project" on Wikipedia will swoop in lock/delete/ban/whatever. Volksgeist 13:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Talk about WP:AGF -- Avi 13:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
They (Israel) are the sole reason they are in this situation but I'm sure others will have to fight, die, and pay for it for them.
— Volksgeist, 18:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the above is WP:OR, and is not grounds for adding something to the article. -- Avi 18:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Please, this section is for discussing the Chaim Ramon quote, not attacking User: Volksgeist
So the issue at hand:
Pro:the quote was made by an official during an official meeting and is notable and verifiable
Con:the quote does not represent official Israeli policy and therefore cannot/should not be included.
We need to come to a consensus on the above and stop the petty bickering/namecalling. Sarastro777 19:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Your guideline presumes that readers are going to assume a quotation from one minister represents official policy. I don't see this as being the case, or something that is assumed in other articles. The Hezbollah stuff belongs in a different discussion that is not about Chaim Ramon. 64.186.246.122 20:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, well clearly notable items related to Israel belong in the article about Israel. Obviously Ramon being a Gov't Official in an official meeting meets this criteria. So is your viewpoint really that you think it is irrelevant, or it is just not notable enough to include? Please stop the quid pro quo threats. I am not interested in discussing irrelevant (to Chaim Ramon), Hezbollah quotations with you in this thread. Sarastro777 20:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's use your logic. "You can't include quotes by Hezbollah because they don't represent the official policy of Israel." The argument you are making for deleting the quote is that only official policy of Israel can be included, but yet you admit to breaking that guideline by having other quotes. Obviously what you really believe through your actions and what is substantiated by policy, is a requirement for notability and verifiability. Both of these requirements are meant by the Chaim Ramon quote. Not liking the contents does not entitle you to suppress the POV of a major official. Sarastro777 20:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Haim Ramon to quit over sexual misconduct charges: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5262884.stm Volksgeist 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The Ramon quote does not belong in this article, since this article is about Israel, and not about Ramon (however it might be a good idea to put the quote in the article about Ramon, if there is one). Similarly, the article does not need to be flooded with quotes by Nasrallah about Israel and Judaism. Those quotes belong in Hizballah (where they do indeed appear) and/or Hassan Nasrallah where *checks* they also appear. Anyway, the only quotes that would be relevant here would be by military policy makers such as Olmert, Peretz and Halutz. Other quotes may be of note, but only in relation to the individual making them. - LeaHazel 14:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
How does Israel's Air force and Army compare with Canada's? Which one is better, which one is better funded? Israel does not have a Navy right? Jamesino 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
How does Isreal's overall military power compare with Canada's? Jamesino 21:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Why are you discussing Canadian military? Its totally irrelevant to this topic. What you should be discussing is why the US will "allow" Israel to have nuclear war heads and are so against the Iran even developing nuclear energy.
Mongoose.....I dont care to compare Canada/Israeli armies....but ake away the $5 billion in arms the US supplies Israel every year and we will see how big there army really is.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.59.106.164 ( talk • contribs) 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Last I checked, it was around $3B, of which something like 2-2.5 comes back to the US and supports the US economy, but I could be misremembering. -- Avi 14:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
So, Avi, what you want to say is that Israel receives $3B aid from the USA. 2-2.5B happens to be spent on US products. It is still a gift of $3B to Israel and an (inefficient) subsidy of the US economy. Tobi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.112.179 ( talk • contribs)
let me clarify things...it is around $3 billion a year, but they also recieve another 3 bil from indirect aid, so you can say that israel gets a bit more than $5 bil a year from direct/indirect aid from the US. In 1967 99% of US foriegn aid went to israel...coincidentally around the same time as the 6 days war. now, israel recieves roughly 1/3 of the entire US's foriegn aid budget, an outrageous number, especially considereing israel only occupies .001% of the worlds population. since 1941, an estimation of around $95,000,000,000 has been given to israel, according to the AICE. (american-israeli cooperative enterprise. not only is this costing american taxpayers a large sum of money, it also violates american laws. "Israel is to be a military stronghold, a client state, and a proxy army, protecting US interests in the Middle East and throughout the world" -Matt Bowles
that is most definitely not true. let me put things this way...america gives israel the most money annualy. another thing...if you run a store, and every customer you recieve, you give them money to buy your products...does that make any sense at all? domestic sources...come on now, all im saying, is that without the US israel's military is nothing.
"Israel is allowed to have nukes" not according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, they are outside of the non proliferation treaty, same boat as North Korea, Iran, ect. but no one seems to like to mention that fact. August 23rd JustinMcL
"Israel has nukes" comes from foreign sources, most of these unverified. The Israeli government never declared it has nukes.
well then, dont you think america should run in an destroy the country looking for them like iraq?
As noted, they are outside the nuclear non proliferation treaty (in other words, they never signed it) and by no stretch of imigination is Israel allowed by any international body to have nuclear weapons JustinmclSeptember 3rd
The State of Israel's armed forces can't be compared to Canada's for two main reasons: The IDF is a conscript force, Canada's is a volunteer force. In short, that means Canada's is superior, on average. In theory, everyone in the Canadian armed services wants to be there. This is not so in the IDF. Second, the IDF has a much lower combat to support troops ration as it is also ment to serve the function of hemoganizing a ethnically and ideologically diverse population as well as providing defence against outsiders. Most Israeli soldiers are "jobniks" who's main reason for being there is to interact with other Israelis from other backgrounds for three years and to be instructed on how to be valid Zionists first and whatever other identity they have second. 88.154.158.42 17:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, it should not be its own sub-section, any more than the Yom Kippur war and the 1982 conflict are their own sections. Secondly, it is inconsistent with the main article. It is suffering from the conflict being so recent. This should be dramatically cut down, following the pattern of all of the other conflicts. We have a main article for a reason. -- Avi 15:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I understand why it happened, but I believe we should restore the symmetry and balance. Summary-style and all. -- Avi 15:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I was pleased to find this sub-section exactly as it is, and it felt very natural balanced to me. I came to the Israel page looking to learn about the history of Isreal, and specifically how that history relates to the current conflict. I suspect the vast majority of visitors to this page will be interested in similar information. The current layout gave me exactly what I was seeking, and the fact that the current conflict is highlighted in its own section seems perfectly reasonable in light of its current importance to readers. No doubt, in another 5 or 10 years, this conflict will be no more important than other conflicts of other decades, and the section can be rebalanced at that time to account for the changing perspective. Drwr 00:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
"28% of the land was already bought and owned by Zionist organizations plus additional private land owned by Jews[citation needed]." Could an administrator please either (1) allow me to edit numbers out of a beginning of a sentence, or (2) do it herself? Gracias.
Israel, why have you violated the cease fire five days after it started? I know some israeli is gonna come and delete this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.234.154 ( talk • contribs) 15:36, August 19, 2006
^ ! !
Are you under the impression that the Israeli consulate reads Wikipedia talk sections?
As I said previously, we should have pro Israeli view and pro Arab view. Even though they are both points of view, they would neutralize each other due to both being included. ≈ MrBobla 17:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
According to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan Israel's raid violated the U.N ceasefire agreement. Volksgeist 02:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
That belongs in the main 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict article, not here. -- Avi 03:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I find the person who keeps changing that Israel violated the ceasefire to "violations have occurred" a bit misleading. It's been all over the news the violations have been on the Israeli side, it's a bit ridiculous to say "although violations have occurred," I would appreciate if you stop changing it. I know you're from Israel but lets be real here, even the UN is upset about this one. Volksgeist 21:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
[9] [10] Isarig 23:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Hrm... (aug15th) "UP to a dozen rockets have been fired at Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon, the army has said, in what Israel has called a violation of the hours-old ceasefire in the area." Rockets in Southern Lebanon? Is that part of Greater Israel yet? Why did the UN not issue a statement about it being a violation? They were pretty quick when Israel invaded Lebanon again in a raid and then issued air strikes. Way to go Israel, bombing a nation back into oblivion. It's quite obvious in this whole incident that Israel has escalated it far out of control and continues todo so. This megaphone software must be working great...The userpage of most of the administrators here usually spells most of it out. Volksgeist 10:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I find it interesting to note that Volksgeist has completely failed to respond to Isarig's links, but continues to make personal attacks on administrators and any users who disagree with his baseless view. I am left questioning if he should be allowed to edit any pages on wikipedia anywhere, and would suggest an IP ban. But I have no actual pull here; that's just my view.
For the record, I am Jewish and I live in Jerusalem; but Iagree with Volksgeist. The violations from reputable sources have all been from the Israeli side. No Hezbollah rocket fell on Israel since the ceasefire, but Israel has raided Lebenon. He's right, and his opinion on Jews is his own business and doesn't detract from him being correct on this issue. It's also annoying that any article on Judaism or Israel on wikkipedia is constantly patrolled to make sure nothing critical or even not approving of Zionism last long. 88.154.158.42 18:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
i agree...israel today wont accept any criticism whatsoever. Dan Gillerman was very disappointed in kofi annan when he said he didnt believe that the attack on the UN observitory was unintentional. kofi annan was destroyed by pro israeli politicians and he was forced to keep his mouth shut. Mac33c 00:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Please see Israel-Venezuela relations and Israel-New Zealand relations. They could both use the perspectives of Israelis. There appears to be a revived movement to merge the Israel-Ven relations page into Foreign relations of Venezuela so I urge other users to vote against this. Respectfully, Republitarian 19:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
How about moving the title of the article to State of Israel....to be, you know, precise? Paul 02:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
That makes sense, actually. Bibically, "Israel" refers to the Jewish people, not to the country. Sneech2 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that, as Sneech says, "Israel" has a major meaning entirely independent of the State of Israel is worth considering, and makes the case different from those of the other states mentioned. That being said, I think that ultimately most people looking up "Israel" will be looking for the state, and moving the article is unnecessary. A disambiguation notice at the top, which is already present, seems sufficient. john k 23:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be about the State of Israel. There should be short entries about each war, with wikilinks to the specific articles. This is not the place to start copying every detail from the 2006 conflict article, that is why we have it, and its myriad daughter articles. -- Avi 14:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned that some of my edits are being reverted by pro-Israeli forces within 1 minute of them being written and I am being accused of undue POV. I suggest that due consideration has not been given.
I was attempting to provide balance about the Lebanon-Israel war. Ar present it appears that the only casulaties have been Israelis (mentioned 4 times I think: my attempt to mention Lebanese casualties was immediately deleted. Johnbibby 18:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been working on Lebanon so I can't really comment. I suggest that 'both articles should show balance - it's not that each one is meant to balance the other article! (However, maybe the whoel lot should be in the Israel-Lebanon conflict 2006 article.
(But my main comment was that my revisions had been removed without due consideration.) Johnbibby 20:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
What about revisions ADDED without due consideration?
Dear Anon. (please sign in future -thanks!) Oh I agree - there are lots of those! Johnbibby 16:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
This should be redirected to the State of Israel with Israel being a disambiguation page with links to other articles. סרגון יוחנא 17:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
is in israel a lutherian church? simon mayer.
This talk page is 90% bickering. It's about time that most of this was wiped clean. It's difficult to see any reasons for edits among all the PoV comments. If you want a chat room go meet in one but try to use this page for discussing the content of this entry rather than your own agendas. Candy 17:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The current (29 Aug 06) version of the article states:
In an interlinear, literal translation of Genesis 32:28, the first mention of the word "Israel" in the Bible reads as follows: "And-he-is-saying not Jacob he-shall-be-said further name-of-you but rather Israel that you-are-upright with Elohim and with mortals and-you-are-prevailing." [2] Thus one literal translation of ישראל, Israel, is "Upright (with) God" (ישר-אל; Ishr-al).
The link after the translation merely goes to the Hebrew Wikisource text of that verse. No justification is given for that particular translation, although there is some talk of it in the archives of the June 2006 Discussion page. I believe that this translation is in error, because that editor confused the root "yod-sin-resh" (which is the root which appears in the word "Yisrael") with the root "yod-shin-resh" (which does mean "upright" but is NOT in the word "Yisrael").
The Wikipedia article on Genesis offers several links to recognized translations. Here is how our verse appears in five of them:
Jewish Publication Society: ... thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
The Living Torah: ... You have become great (sar) before God and man. You have won.
Judaica Press: ... you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed.
New Revised Standard Version: ... you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed.
King James Version: ... for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
I find it difficult to choose from among these translations, and it would probably be a violation of Original Research if I tried to. Plus, I find the previous current "interlinear, literal translation" to be so convoluted as to be useless. I am therefore going to delete this paragraph, and merge important parts of it into the previous one. Anyone who disagrees with me, please discuss it here.
Thanks. -- Keeves 02:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course, and as clearly indicated above, provided citations are given I am willing to collaborate and compromise on the translation. And I have. But given that the Hebrew language has only been revived and become more common since the end of the 19th century by the Jewish linguist Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, I think it is merely egotistical to say that anyone should "defer" on the topic of the Hebrew language -- most certainly when good-faith citations are given.
Keeves', and others', existing translation of Israel as "princely...of God" is an acceptable translation, as similar words can be found in the Bible. However, if one wants to claim that Israel in some way translates as "one who struggles with God," they will be very hard-pressed to find any sort of comparable translation for "struggle" for similar Hebrew characters in the Bible...because such a similarity does not exist. Following Occam's Razor, that simply means that Israel doesn't translate that way.
In my opinion -- and merely in my opinion: (1) to say that Israel does translate as "one who struggles with God" is a self-flagellating (or perhaps even externally-originated) pejorative, and (2) if one 'believes that it translates that way, they it does -- for the person who believes that. I choose not to believe that. Moreover, I observe (not an opinion here) that there is clearly no evidence for it translating that way. But, according to your beliefs, so be it unto you.
The existing text provided by Keeves is adequate, if only in that it highlights the paradox that this word challenges each of us with. I am truly a big believer in paradox, as it exists in an abundance in nature, so when I say that Israel means what you choose for it to mean, I'm quite serious. -- 66.69.219.9 00:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
66.69.219.9 wrote:
Keeves', and others', existing translation of Israel as "princely...of God" is an acceptable translation, as similar words can be found in the Bible.
"similar words"??? No, not "similar". Rather, they are the same words, being spelled with a "sin". "Yashar/upright", which is spelled with a "shin", is an entirely different word. To the others who have written here, I thank you for your support. To 66.69.219.9, here is my suggestion: Let's reinstate my edit of Aug 29, which is to delete everything from this section except for the first paragraph, and add just one thing to that first paragraph, that being the reference to Genesis 32:28. This change will remove both your translation and mine, and will allow readers to look at those verses and draw their own conclusion. I will even allow the words "wrestling with" to remain, instead of my change to "successfully defeating", in deference to Okedem's view about "struggling". If you do not find this offer acceptable, I think that will need to follow the procedures in Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, of which we are currently in Step One. Step Two seems to suggest that people who have already posted on this page should avoid doing so for some set period of time. I think to the end of this week might be appropriate. What do others think? -- Keeves 16:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
okedem 17:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I will add a new HRW source on Israels use of cluster bombs [ [14]]. -- Oiboy77 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Our article states that the area of Israel is 22,145 km² (149th) 8,019 sq mi - Water (%) ~2%
The BBC profile states that "Area: Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics cites 22,072 sq km (8,522 sq miles), including Jerusalem and Golan." Where does our figure come from and how reliable is it?
Capitalistroadster 01:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a minor detail...the capture and killing of Israeli soldiers in the Israel-Gaza conflict of 2006 occurred on June 24, 2006, not June 28.
I see the capital city listed as Jerusalem - I thought that Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel? Rarelibra 15:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. However, Tel-Aviv is more recognized due to it's size. I wanted to point out that on the page about Israel it says that Jerusalem is the largest city, which is false. Tel-Aviv has a population of about two million, while Jerusalem has a population of about a million and a half.
Then we do have to agree to disagree. I consider Tel-Aviv and Yafo the same city, as do all Israelies, because they have reached the size where they are the same city. Once two cities physically connect they become the same one. If you check any map from Israel it says Tel-Aviv Yafo as the same city. So when you count the size of the population, please count Yafo as well next time.
Why is there arguement here? Tel aviv is the internationally recognized capital of Israel. It's the capital recognized by the United Nations. Shia1 02:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
King David did not live in the State of Israel, and Hebron is not part of Israel nor does anyone claim it is the modern capital. The Fact is that Tel Aviv is the internationally recognized capital of Israel, and Israel is not entitled to its own facts either. Nor is Okedem entitled to his own facts concerning international law. There needs to be something that says Tel Aviv is the internationaly recognized capital in the article. Jerusalem should also be listed as where Israel says its capital is. My soloution is a good compromise. 88.153.87.107 04:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I mostly agree with Leifern, although I'm dubious that foriegn embassies are in Tel Aviv mostly because of "convenience." At any rate, it is ridiculous to call Tel Aviv Israel's capital, given that it fulfills just about none of the characteristics normally associated with capital cities (it is not so designated by the government of Israel, and it is not the seat of Israel's national government. I'm not sure how a city can be a capital if it fulfills neither of these criteria.) john k 19:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be best to move all this section to the Positions on Jerusalem article.
All that is needed here is something like.
The legal status of jerusalem is disputed. Israel regards Jerusalem as her capital, but ....
What do others think?
I think the reference to GDR is irrelevant. Everybody accepted Berlin as part of Germany, and eventually Berlin (E.) was accepted as "Hauptstadt der DDR" and all national had their embassies there.
No other state made claim to Berlin.
In Jerusalem, Israel's claim is a political ambition. I think it is perfectly correct to emphasise the dispute - but prbably on the Position of jerusalm page, not this one!
It would be nice to see a little more information on what was going on in the region of Israel between the years of 1517-1920, including information about the relations of Jews and non-Jews in the region during this period.
NEW: On Wikiversity there is now a " Jewish Studies School." Will it become a "duplication" of many things on Wikipedia? What should it's goals and functions be? Please add your learned views. Thank you. IZAK 09:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
MauroVan asked me to explain what I believe is problematic about his version: [15].
Maurovan, when the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, the Knesset, and the Jewish Agency for Israel all recognize that Arab citizens of Israel are discriminated against then there is no question that such discrimination does take place and this information should unambiguously stay in the human rights section. On the other hand the very same references demonstrate that these Israeli institutions are aware of the problem and are trying to correct it - much to Israel's merit I think.
Dianelos
10:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Not all people have the time or interest to go to the main page on a particular topic that is mentioned within an article like this, so that is what a summary is for. It is probably the preference of most wikipedia users and editors that there be a decent summary in every single section of articles, even if it includes a link. The issue mentioned above will probably be changed soon enough, but just because that article is lacking does not mean that we should abandon making a good summary here.
Some of the things that are a must for this article; human rights in Israel proper (generally decent); human rights in the occupied territories (not as good); issues with minorities (with mention of how the government is addressing this). I would also advize that the "freedom index" is used in the new version, and that you leave "the fence" issue to the main page. I also don't feel that the Israeli media deserves mention in this article; that does not have to do with human rights, it is a freedom of the press issue.
Lastly, I think when you say "inverted commas" you are saying the same thing as "quotation marks." If that is the case, I suggest that you use them, but only if the comments within are representative of the majority of sources that address the same issue as the quote. Markovich292 21:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Umpf.
Is there anybody out there wishing to solve this specific issue instead of always adding something else to the stack??
The article on Zimbabwe is simply not relevant. I don't see why the alleged low quality of that article should justify a low quality in this article. That's all I need to say on such useless comparisons.
The comparison with the article on the USA is a boomerang-argument, Humus sapiens. The article there talks about the barrier with Mexico (a link is given), Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo... if we want to use that article as a model, all issues like the Fence, the Occupied Territories, the status of Arab Palestinians inside Israel etc should be considered part of "Human rights in Israel" without any distinction between "Israel proper" and "Israel-occupied areas".
If you talked about the USA just to point out that no section on human rights is included in the main article ( USA) and therefore to suggest that we do the same, this could be acceptable to me: let's just give a link to Human rights in Israel without any summary. However, please tell me what you propose to do because you always change your position.
I don't understand why accusing the USA of being an uncritical supporter of the Israeli government should "say much" about me. What does it say? (anyway, I said that while asking a question, and you didn't answer my question which was relevant in order to understand your opposition to a part of my edits)
Let's upgrade the option list: should we (a) keep the section short without cites in inverted commas, (b) have a rather long section with all cites in inverted commas or (c) just give a link to the detailed article? Please everybody answer this last question! You just need to write a letter: a, b or c.
Lastly, quotation marks are also properly called inverted commas. My English sucks but no so much! :-) -- MauroVan 09:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I think a Human Rights section should exist in the main article of any country where there are serious allegations of human rights violations. On the other hand I think it's true that Israel is much better in this respect than any other country in the region. So why not make this basic fact clear at the very beginning and rewrite the section with something like this: "There is more respect for human rights in Israel than in any other country in the region. In Israel there is a democratic government, minorities are represented in the legislature, there is genuinely free press, and NGOs who publicly criticize the government and its policies. These freedoms in Israel are especially remarkable considering that Israel has been throughout its history in a virtually constant state of war and many of its neighbors have still official policies that call for its destruction, and considering that Israeli society is the victim of continuous terrorist attacks. Nevertheless the Israeli government is responsible for severe violations of the human rights of the non-Jewish people under its control. Specifically: 1) Significant discrimination against the Arab citizens of Israel, 2) Occupation of the West Bank and expansion of illegal expropriations and settlements there. 3) Holding aprox. 9,000 Palestinian prisoners some under administrative detention. 4) Use of torture in interrogations. 5) Bulldozing homes and punishing entire families for the crimes of one of its members. 5) Building the wall in the occupied territories. There have also been allegations of disproportionate use of force and even of war crimes committed by Israel in the Second Lebanon War. There are several Israeli organizations that recognize these problems and try to correct them.” It won’t be difficult to find good references for the above – the ACRI site is one good source and it certainly is not anti-Israeli. I think it does not honor nor befits Israel to whitewash these issues. And certainly this is all relevant information that should be present in an encyclopedia. Dianelos 19:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
A combination of A and B would be best. As I said before (and as Dianelos says above), there should certainly be a section in the main article when it is an important issue. It should not drone on and on, but it should certainly be longer than just 2 paragraphs. My view (and probably a common one) is that quotations give an article A) more credibility and B) give it more "life." The problem with the current article is that it hardly addresses the negative aspect of human rights, instead opting to use glittering generalities. It also lacks any good examples on either positive or negative aspects. Markovich292 00:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
HawkerTyphoon you toned down the expression "the discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel constitutes one of the most severe infringements of equality in the State of Israel." alleging this is POV. But exactly the same expression is present in the site of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel and in the site of the joint project of the Knesset and the Jewish Agency for Israel for drafting Israel's constitution. I mean how can this be POV? Wikipedia must be neutral, but this is like trying to be more catholic than the Pope. If Israeli society is mature and brave enough to recognize that such discrimination does take place, so should wikipedia. So if there aren't any objections here I intend to revert this back in a few days. Dianelos 11:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
from my talk page, okedem 12:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC):
Okedem - Unfortunately it sounds like you are pushing a point of view.Thousands of Kurds and Tats residents is certainly an important part of a location's history. However, removing references to important historical events goes strongly against Wikipedia policy. See for comparison MORE INFORMATION: [16] part of that refrenced template & [17] & [18] - ZANDWEB T. DON'T REMOVE AGAIN .
It says, in the article under the Israel-Lebanonese conflict, "Lebanon and Israel's," did the 30 year old soviet rockets really damage power supplies, food, and water like the huge US-funded/paid for airstrikes in Lebanon did? If not the sentence is misleading. Volksgeist 00:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
"Olmert annouced this morning a new special cabinet to deal with the issues or recovering the institutions and the infrastructures in the north" , and peres : the priority will be to rehabilitate the north of the country, it's rejunevation and strenghting it in all levels. [19] here it talks about 12,000 structures damaged wide spread in the noth [20], here it talks about long rehabilitations (talks about the thousands of dunams burnt...) plenty. [21] Amoruso
I think it's unfair to put Israel and Lebanon in the same boat (I wasn't under the impression that power/food/water supplies were hit in Israel), comparing the damage in Lebanon to Israel is like comparing a lion to a mouse. And a question, are non-English language sources acceptable on English Wikipedia? Volksgeist 06:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's look at the numbers. Hezbollah fired some 4,000 primitive
Katyusha rockets which curry a 20 kg warhead and are very inaccurate: less than one fourth of these rockets actually landed in Israeli cities (the rest presumably landing in nearby fields). Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). In contrast Israel's airforce flew over 12,000 combat missions, its navy conducted 2,500 bombardments, and its artillery shot over 100,000 shells.
[3] We can safely guess that each of these attacks delivered more than 20 kg of explosives and that most of them met their targets. So there is really no comparison. Stating in the same sentence that both Lebanon and Israel suffered widespread damage is grossly misleading.
Dianelos
11:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I have ammended the information to reflect the sources cited, the Guardian article reports 6000 claims for damage to buildings, but the article stated they had been destroyed. Also ammended to indicate that infrastructure includes cities, not just roads/bridges etc. Boynamedsue
Have deleted hebrew journalistic source and replaced with its source the estimates of the israzli environment agency. The estimates are a little vague (necessarily) but they appear to be classifying each appartment within a building seperately, so the 2000 buildings destroyed are actually 2000 properties destroyed (estimate). I feel the current wording is adequate as it is not clear from the text how many buildings were damaged ,how many properties in damaged buildings were still habitable, etc etc, lets leave it at this until until the fog of war clears and there are accurate figures available. BNS
12,000 buildings is rediculous! Where? It has to be counting rather light damage, like people went to the bomb shelter so mold grew or something. I was up north during the bombing. Most of the rockets were landing in open fields. The estimate I've heard is 900 landed in populated areas. Each would have to do damage to over ten buildings. Being that I had a friend who was literally 20 ft from a rocket that exploded and he was uninjured, I doubt these little rockets could each do damage to 10 buildings a piece. Shia1 02:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe a way to say what's accurate would be to say the rockets did sever damage to Israel's Economy. The infrastructure wasn't damage so much. That's not an accurate statement. Shia1 00:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I am agreeing with you that the economy was damaged, perhaps even severely. I would not argue if the word severely was used. People up north are poor people and they were out of jobs for a month. THat is perhaps severe. But infrastructure, like electricity, roads, water, etc. wasn't severely damaged. The lights are on in every house up north, and were on most of the war. Egged still goes up there, the water is running fine, and ran fine the entire war. TV and cable are on, and never went off in most of the affected area. THat's what I mean by the infrastructure wasn't severely damaged. One cable car, while annoying, isn't severe war damage. Just take the bus. 88.153.87.107 01:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
aww come on, these numbers are VERY highly exaggerated. most of the rockets fired into israel hit either nothing or military targets. those numbers dont make any sense at all. I dont know if its sympathy israel wants or to show how "bad" hezbollah is, but they cant be speaking for all of the destruction in lebanon that has been caused. if by infrastructure you mean that wide open fields and military targets then this quote should stay, other than that get rid of it because it is very misleading. Mac33c 01:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Would be great if somebody could write a short component about this.
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I am not sure IF I am spelling his name correctly but in the year 1949 there was a british photographer who took a color documetary film of the early israel , anyone has any info about him and his footage?
On the page, the Prime Minister Ehud Olmert inaccurately is above the President Moshe Katsav. I thought you put the head of state first, then the head of government. Can someone please sort it out? I can't because of this semi-protection (I'm a new Wikipedian). Thanks RJL 20:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Editors on this page have consistently deleted a vague listing noting a few major organizations that criticize human rights in Israel. As it stands now, there is no indication there is any criticism whatsoever. This is not a representation of the reality of the situation, and represents a severe bias. Therefore the article does not have neutrality. I suggest we work on a way to address this fairly together, so that a handful will stop hurting the article by deleting anything they see as criticism. Sarastro777 04:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop the personal attacks. "for those who wish to find fault with the State of Israel" -- we've been over this. Any "fault" is from the attributed Human Rights Groups, not the personal view of the editor. You need to work on not taking documentation of human rights issues as an individual assault from the editors working on such articles in good faith.
Humus Sapien's edit note: replaced Sarastro's cherrypicking of irrelevant groups with a variety of relevant ones, mention freedom of press within Israel)
the "irrelevant groups" he deleted were:
To say these groups are irrelevant is so funny it is hard to believe he actually expects anyone to take him credibly. Each group was followed with a specific reference to insure verifiability.
The "Freedom of the Press" is already in the main article. This out of context and isolated mention is inviting a lengthy examination of exceptions, which are already well documented. I don't see why it is helpful to go down this road. Your very smug response seems to indicate that you accept a bias issue in the section but are comfortable with it because you think the HR article contains "plenty of fodder." That viewpoint is not productive.
Sarastro777 05:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Assume Good Faith & Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks Sarastro777 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
What follows is the paragraph I added in the Human Rights section to correct the obvious bias present there:
I see no reason why User:Humus sapiens has deleted it. He justified this deletion telling that the article is not about "the conflict". Neither the AI report is (indeed, half of the cite is about a law enforced by the State of Israel, it's about domestic policy). Moreover, I find it quite absurd to consider the Human Rights' record of Israel irrespective of its role in the Occupied Territories and irrespective of the "little detail" that this country is unfortunately involved in a conflict with its Arab neighbours since its very foundation! I reversed the deletion. If I did wrong, please explain me why before redeleting it. -- MauroVan 13:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm here in response to MauroVan's
request for comment. I recognize that you all know the subject matter better than I do, but can offer some suggestions.
Thanks, and good luck, TheronJ 14:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The current version (14:45, 29 Aug, last edit by Jebus1) seems like a reasonable summary to me. 6SJ7 22:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jayig that saying "some pro-Israel" groups is poisioning the well. I strongly object to the phrase. If we are going to use that phrase, why not call the UN and the NGOs "anti-Israel"? Elizmr 22:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah right, let's turn this into a soapbox for your righteous outrage. ← Humus sapiens ну? 01:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I am responding as an outsider to the controversy, as requested. This seems to me to be a simple case. In the vast majority of nations, Israel is regarded as highly controversial because of the persistant accusations that they violate human rights. The argument that all this criticism stems from anti-Semitism is not credible. The groups listed, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc., are controversial, but anyone who follows the links will find the criticism of those groups. Therefore, the views of those groups should be included (and linked.) -- ManEatingDonut 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Hm. 10 minutes after I made a request for arbitration, Humus sapiens decided for the first time to include Amnesty International's criticism in his edit. This is a big step forward, because until now this user and his co-thinkers always did all they could to prevent any cite from Amnesty International and other blacklisted sources to appear on the page.
Unfortunately, the result isn't yet acceptable, in my opinion. Many de facto pro-Israel sources are quoted in length, while the only criticism is just given a link, followed by a sentence accusing the criticism to be biased. My proposal was to respect the advice we received from without, ie:
If Humus sapiens wants to keep all his cites (I mean: those cites he likes so much) in inverted commas, we could simply add the cite from Amnesty International too. That was precisely my original edit, but nobody seemed to like it... -- MauroVan 12:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This section is unbelievably biased. There's no mention of any human rights abuses against either Arabs or Jews. What about Ammona? (video) HOw about the raid on Toldos Aaron in 1981, the raid on Meah SHarim in 1983, the French Hill Massacre, the 2005 Passover Raid against Satmer (there's video), the beatings of Jews protesting graves being uprooted where they used tazers on the protestors faces while they sat.(also video) The article is so biased it belongs in a Hassborah site not in an encyclopedia. 88.154.158.42 19:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Is considered terrorism. I added an NPOV-tag until this issue is resolved. -- Daniel575 20:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
terrorism
ANY QUESTIONS? -- TheYmode 21:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if someone is trying to argue the IDF are terrorists for civilian deaths in Lebanon or if it is Hezbollah for the rockets. In either case, the definitions above hinge on the internal motive of the perpetrator. That is almost always hard to 'verify' and makes the label "terrorist" problematic and frequently based on the POV of the person using the word. 64.186.246.122 21:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
So... I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a factually accurate and less loaded term like "forcing civilians to leave" or "making civilians leave"? Could TheYmode or Daniel575 explain? Thanks. -- Birdmessenger 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I've come up with a description which is accurate, but which doesn't use the contentious word "terrorising". Jayjg (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Is somebody here actually trying to say that Israel is a terrorist state? No way this should be allowed. Ackoz 21:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
i agree that there are only a few israelis that do these things and that they dont act upon all of the isrealis behalf, but why is it that these few always seem to get into a position of power? Peace can only be created if israelis cooperate and the people in the government right now wont. so for all you israelis who claim not to be "zionists" its about time you do something about your country because it is causing the death of civilians on both the arab and israeli side Mac33c 15:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This should be in the portion as much as the quote from the Hossein Safiadeen. Both are notable; unless of course you think it's NPOV to put in the quote that he said about justifying the killing of women and children and calling them terrorist as much as the Arab stating "They will not make Israel safe for Israelis." Volksgeist 13:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think this quote should not be included in the article, because, veritable or not, it does not reflect the official standpoint of Israel in its conflict with Lebanon. The Israeli Defense Army's aim was all along to destroy Hezbollah's launching posts and eliminate its members. Unlike Hezbollah, the IDF warned the civilians in the areas it was about to bomb by means of leaflets dropped from aircrafts. The fact that many civilians didn't leave the attacked areas, for various reasons, and subsequently killed is another issue, and the death of civilians was unintentional. Therefore, using Ramon's slip of the tongue as a representation of Israel's standpoint puts it out of context. It is very curious indeed, Volksgeist, that you chose to quote this out of all the things said by Israel's political representatives, a quote which totally condratics the Israeli government's perception -- Lividore 22:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It sounds like you are threatening retaliatory vandalism because you disagree with what is clearly a relevant quote. Is it supposed to punish me personally that you say you are going to put a quote from Nasrallah? I am really confused by what you are trying to prove here other than you have a very strong bias. Sarastro777 23:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
So what it looks like is the reason certain people do not want the quote in is because of a personal bias towards myself. Furthermore, it seems the people complaining about it also seem to be ones who are members of Jewish groups on Wikipedia. Is because the quote displays Israel in a negative light is somehow not appropriate?
Volksgeist
00:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've rewrote the included quote and placed it inline with the comments from Hezbollah (this should appease both parties). They seem to go in par with each other. I've realized that when it comes to articles relating to Israel and Judaism, Wikipedia is hardly a place for a NPOV as articles will be reverted and Wikipedia administrator members of the "Judaism project" on Wikipedia will swoop in lock/delete/ban/whatever. Volksgeist 13:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Talk about WP:AGF -- Avi 13:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
They (Israel) are the sole reason they are in this situation but I'm sure others will have to fight, die, and pay for it for them.
— Volksgeist, 18:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the above is WP:OR, and is not grounds for adding something to the article. -- Avi 18:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Please, this section is for discussing the Chaim Ramon quote, not attacking User: Volksgeist
So the issue at hand:
Pro:the quote was made by an official during an official meeting and is notable and verifiable
Con:the quote does not represent official Israeli policy and therefore cannot/should not be included.
We need to come to a consensus on the above and stop the petty bickering/namecalling. Sarastro777 19:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Your guideline presumes that readers are going to assume a quotation from one minister represents official policy. I don't see this as being the case, or something that is assumed in other articles. The Hezbollah stuff belongs in a different discussion that is not about Chaim Ramon. 64.186.246.122 20:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, well clearly notable items related to Israel belong in the article about Israel. Obviously Ramon being a Gov't Official in an official meeting meets this criteria. So is your viewpoint really that you think it is irrelevant, or it is just not notable enough to include? Please stop the quid pro quo threats. I am not interested in discussing irrelevant (to Chaim Ramon), Hezbollah quotations with you in this thread. Sarastro777 20:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's use your logic. "You can't include quotes by Hezbollah because they don't represent the official policy of Israel." The argument you are making for deleting the quote is that only official policy of Israel can be included, but yet you admit to breaking that guideline by having other quotes. Obviously what you really believe through your actions and what is substantiated by policy, is a requirement for notability and verifiability. Both of these requirements are meant by the Chaim Ramon quote. Not liking the contents does not entitle you to suppress the POV of a major official. Sarastro777 20:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Haim Ramon to quit over sexual misconduct charges: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5262884.stm Volksgeist 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The Ramon quote does not belong in this article, since this article is about Israel, and not about Ramon (however it might be a good idea to put the quote in the article about Ramon, if there is one). Similarly, the article does not need to be flooded with quotes by Nasrallah about Israel and Judaism. Those quotes belong in Hizballah (where they do indeed appear) and/or Hassan Nasrallah where *checks* they also appear. Anyway, the only quotes that would be relevant here would be by military policy makers such as Olmert, Peretz and Halutz. Other quotes may be of note, but only in relation to the individual making them. - LeaHazel 14:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
How does Israel's Air force and Army compare with Canada's? Which one is better, which one is better funded? Israel does not have a Navy right? Jamesino 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
How does Isreal's overall military power compare with Canada's? Jamesino 21:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Why are you discussing Canadian military? Its totally irrelevant to this topic. What you should be discussing is why the US will "allow" Israel to have nuclear war heads and are so against the Iran even developing nuclear energy.
Mongoose.....I dont care to compare Canada/Israeli armies....but ake away the $5 billion in arms the US supplies Israel every year and we will see how big there army really is.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.59.106.164 ( talk • contribs) 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Last I checked, it was around $3B, of which something like 2-2.5 comes back to the US and supports the US economy, but I could be misremembering. -- Avi 14:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
So, Avi, what you want to say is that Israel receives $3B aid from the USA. 2-2.5B happens to be spent on US products. It is still a gift of $3B to Israel and an (inefficient) subsidy of the US economy. Tobi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.112.179 ( talk • contribs)
let me clarify things...it is around $3 billion a year, but they also recieve another 3 bil from indirect aid, so you can say that israel gets a bit more than $5 bil a year from direct/indirect aid from the US. In 1967 99% of US foriegn aid went to israel...coincidentally around the same time as the 6 days war. now, israel recieves roughly 1/3 of the entire US's foriegn aid budget, an outrageous number, especially considereing israel only occupies .001% of the worlds population. since 1941, an estimation of around $95,000,000,000 has been given to israel, according to the AICE. (american-israeli cooperative enterprise. not only is this costing american taxpayers a large sum of money, it also violates american laws. "Israel is to be a military stronghold, a client state, and a proxy army, protecting US interests in the Middle East and throughout the world" -Matt Bowles
that is most definitely not true. let me put things this way...america gives israel the most money annualy. another thing...if you run a store, and every customer you recieve, you give them money to buy your products...does that make any sense at all? domestic sources...come on now, all im saying, is that without the US israel's military is nothing.
"Israel is allowed to have nukes" not according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, they are outside of the non proliferation treaty, same boat as North Korea, Iran, ect. but no one seems to like to mention that fact. August 23rd JustinMcL
"Israel has nukes" comes from foreign sources, most of these unverified. The Israeli government never declared it has nukes.
well then, dont you think america should run in an destroy the country looking for them like iraq?
As noted, they are outside the nuclear non proliferation treaty (in other words, they never signed it) and by no stretch of imigination is Israel allowed by any international body to have nuclear weapons JustinmclSeptember 3rd
The State of Israel's armed forces can't be compared to Canada's for two main reasons: The IDF is a conscript force, Canada's is a volunteer force. In short, that means Canada's is superior, on average. In theory, everyone in the Canadian armed services wants to be there. This is not so in the IDF. Second, the IDF has a much lower combat to support troops ration as it is also ment to serve the function of hemoganizing a ethnically and ideologically diverse population as well as providing defence against outsiders. Most Israeli soldiers are "jobniks" who's main reason for being there is to interact with other Israelis from other backgrounds for three years and to be instructed on how to be valid Zionists first and whatever other identity they have second. 88.154.158.42 17:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, it should not be its own sub-section, any more than the Yom Kippur war and the 1982 conflict are their own sections. Secondly, it is inconsistent with the main article. It is suffering from the conflict being so recent. This should be dramatically cut down, following the pattern of all of the other conflicts. We have a main article for a reason. -- Avi 15:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I understand why it happened, but I believe we should restore the symmetry and balance. Summary-style and all. -- Avi 15:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I was pleased to find this sub-section exactly as it is, and it felt very natural balanced to me. I came to the Israel page looking to learn about the history of Isreal, and specifically how that history relates to the current conflict. I suspect the vast majority of visitors to this page will be interested in similar information. The current layout gave me exactly what I was seeking, and the fact that the current conflict is highlighted in its own section seems perfectly reasonable in light of its current importance to readers. No doubt, in another 5 or 10 years, this conflict will be no more important than other conflicts of other decades, and the section can be rebalanced at that time to account for the changing perspective. Drwr 00:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
"28% of the land was already bought and owned by Zionist organizations plus additional private land owned by Jews[citation needed]." Could an administrator please either (1) allow me to edit numbers out of a beginning of a sentence, or (2) do it herself? Gracias.
Israel, why have you violated the cease fire five days after it started? I know some israeli is gonna come and delete this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.234.154 ( talk • contribs) 15:36, August 19, 2006
^ ! !
Are you under the impression that the Israeli consulate reads Wikipedia talk sections?
As I said previously, we should have pro Israeli view and pro Arab view. Even though they are both points of view, they would neutralize each other due to both being included. ≈ MrBobla 17:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
According to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan Israel's raid violated the U.N ceasefire agreement. Volksgeist 02:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
That belongs in the main 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict article, not here. -- Avi 03:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I find the person who keeps changing that Israel violated the ceasefire to "violations have occurred" a bit misleading. It's been all over the news the violations have been on the Israeli side, it's a bit ridiculous to say "although violations have occurred," I would appreciate if you stop changing it. I know you're from Israel but lets be real here, even the UN is upset about this one. Volksgeist 21:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
[9] [10] Isarig 23:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Hrm... (aug15th) "UP to a dozen rockets have been fired at Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon, the army has said, in what Israel has called a violation of the hours-old ceasefire in the area." Rockets in Southern Lebanon? Is that part of Greater Israel yet? Why did the UN not issue a statement about it being a violation? They were pretty quick when Israel invaded Lebanon again in a raid and then issued air strikes. Way to go Israel, bombing a nation back into oblivion. It's quite obvious in this whole incident that Israel has escalated it far out of control and continues todo so. This megaphone software must be working great...The userpage of most of the administrators here usually spells most of it out. Volksgeist 10:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I find it interesting to note that Volksgeist has completely failed to respond to Isarig's links, but continues to make personal attacks on administrators and any users who disagree with his baseless view. I am left questioning if he should be allowed to edit any pages on wikipedia anywhere, and would suggest an IP ban. But I have no actual pull here; that's just my view.
For the record, I am Jewish and I live in Jerusalem; but Iagree with Volksgeist. The violations from reputable sources have all been from the Israeli side. No Hezbollah rocket fell on Israel since the ceasefire, but Israel has raided Lebenon. He's right, and his opinion on Jews is his own business and doesn't detract from him being correct on this issue. It's also annoying that any article on Judaism or Israel on wikkipedia is constantly patrolled to make sure nothing critical or even not approving of Zionism last long. 88.154.158.42 18:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
i agree...israel today wont accept any criticism whatsoever. Dan Gillerman was very disappointed in kofi annan when he said he didnt believe that the attack on the UN observitory was unintentional. kofi annan was destroyed by pro israeli politicians and he was forced to keep his mouth shut. Mac33c 00:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Please see Israel-Venezuela relations and Israel-New Zealand relations. They could both use the perspectives of Israelis. There appears to be a revived movement to merge the Israel-Ven relations page into Foreign relations of Venezuela so I urge other users to vote against this. Respectfully, Republitarian 19:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
How about moving the title of the article to State of Israel....to be, you know, precise? Paul 02:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
That makes sense, actually. Bibically, "Israel" refers to the Jewish people, not to the country. Sneech2 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that, as Sneech says, "Israel" has a major meaning entirely independent of the State of Israel is worth considering, and makes the case different from those of the other states mentioned. That being said, I think that ultimately most people looking up "Israel" will be looking for the state, and moving the article is unnecessary. A disambiguation notice at the top, which is already present, seems sufficient. john k 23:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be about the State of Israel. There should be short entries about each war, with wikilinks to the specific articles. This is not the place to start copying every detail from the 2006 conflict article, that is why we have it, and its myriad daughter articles. -- Avi 14:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned that some of my edits are being reverted by pro-Israeli forces within 1 minute of them being written and I am being accused of undue POV. I suggest that due consideration has not been given.
I was attempting to provide balance about the Lebanon-Israel war. Ar present it appears that the only casulaties have been Israelis (mentioned 4 times I think: my attempt to mention Lebanese casualties was immediately deleted. Johnbibby 18:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been working on Lebanon so I can't really comment. I suggest that 'both articles should show balance - it's not that each one is meant to balance the other article! (However, maybe the whoel lot should be in the Israel-Lebanon conflict 2006 article.
(But my main comment was that my revisions had been removed without due consideration.) Johnbibby 20:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
What about revisions ADDED without due consideration?
Dear Anon. (please sign in future -thanks!) Oh I agree - there are lots of those! Johnbibby 16:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
This should be redirected to the State of Israel with Israel being a disambiguation page with links to other articles. סרגון יוחנא 17:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
is in israel a lutherian church? simon mayer.
This talk page is 90% bickering. It's about time that most of this was wiped clean. It's difficult to see any reasons for edits among all the PoV comments. If you want a chat room go meet in one but try to use this page for discussing the content of this entry rather than your own agendas. Candy 17:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The current (29 Aug 06) version of the article states:
In an interlinear, literal translation of Genesis 32:28, the first mention of the word "Israel" in the Bible reads as follows: "And-he-is-saying not Jacob he-shall-be-said further name-of-you but rather Israel that you-are-upright with Elohim and with mortals and-you-are-prevailing." [2] Thus one literal translation of ישראל, Israel, is "Upright (with) God" (ישר-אל; Ishr-al).
The link after the translation merely goes to the Hebrew Wikisource text of that verse. No justification is given for that particular translation, although there is some talk of it in the archives of the June 2006 Discussion page. I believe that this translation is in error, because that editor confused the root "yod-sin-resh" (which is the root which appears in the word "Yisrael") with the root "yod-shin-resh" (which does mean "upright" but is NOT in the word "Yisrael").
The Wikipedia article on Genesis offers several links to recognized translations. Here is how our verse appears in five of them:
Jewish Publication Society: ... thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
The Living Torah: ... You have become great (sar) before God and man. You have won.
Judaica Press: ... you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed.
New Revised Standard Version: ... you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed.
King James Version: ... for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
I find it difficult to choose from among these translations, and it would probably be a violation of Original Research if I tried to. Plus, I find the previous current "interlinear, literal translation" to be so convoluted as to be useless. I am therefore going to delete this paragraph, and merge important parts of it into the previous one. Anyone who disagrees with me, please discuss it here.
Thanks. -- Keeves 02:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course, and as clearly indicated above, provided citations are given I am willing to collaborate and compromise on the translation. And I have. But given that the Hebrew language has only been revived and become more common since the end of the 19th century by the Jewish linguist Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, I think it is merely egotistical to say that anyone should "defer" on the topic of the Hebrew language -- most certainly when good-faith citations are given.
Keeves', and others', existing translation of Israel as "princely...of God" is an acceptable translation, as similar words can be found in the Bible. However, if one wants to claim that Israel in some way translates as "one who struggles with God," they will be very hard-pressed to find any sort of comparable translation for "struggle" for similar Hebrew characters in the Bible...because such a similarity does not exist. Following Occam's Razor, that simply means that Israel doesn't translate that way.
In my opinion -- and merely in my opinion: (1) to say that Israel does translate as "one who struggles with God" is a self-flagellating (or perhaps even externally-originated) pejorative, and (2) if one 'believes that it translates that way, they it does -- for the person who believes that. I choose not to believe that. Moreover, I observe (not an opinion here) that there is clearly no evidence for it translating that way. But, according to your beliefs, so be it unto you.
The existing text provided by Keeves is adequate, if only in that it highlights the paradox that this word challenges each of us with. I am truly a big believer in paradox, as it exists in an abundance in nature, so when I say that Israel means what you choose for it to mean, I'm quite serious. -- 66.69.219.9 00:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
66.69.219.9 wrote:
Keeves', and others', existing translation of Israel as "princely...of God" is an acceptable translation, as similar words can be found in the Bible.
"similar words"??? No, not "similar". Rather, they are the same words, being spelled with a "sin". "Yashar/upright", which is spelled with a "shin", is an entirely different word. To the others who have written here, I thank you for your support. To 66.69.219.9, here is my suggestion: Let's reinstate my edit of Aug 29, which is to delete everything from this section except for the first paragraph, and add just one thing to that first paragraph, that being the reference to Genesis 32:28. This change will remove both your translation and mine, and will allow readers to look at those verses and draw their own conclusion. I will even allow the words "wrestling with" to remain, instead of my change to "successfully defeating", in deference to Okedem's view about "struggling". If you do not find this offer acceptable, I think that will need to follow the procedures in Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, of which we are currently in Step One. Step Two seems to suggest that people who have already posted on this page should avoid doing so for some set period of time. I think to the end of this week might be appropriate. What do others think? -- Keeves 16:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
okedem 17:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I will add a new HRW source on Israels use of cluster bombs [ [14]]. -- Oiboy77 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Our article states that the area of Israel is 22,145 km² (149th) 8,019 sq mi - Water (%) ~2%
The BBC profile states that "Area: Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics cites 22,072 sq km (8,522 sq miles), including Jerusalem and Golan." Where does our figure come from and how reliable is it?
Capitalistroadster 01:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a minor detail...the capture and killing of Israeli soldiers in the Israel-Gaza conflict of 2006 occurred on June 24, 2006, not June 28.
I see the capital city listed as Jerusalem - I thought that Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel? Rarelibra 15:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. However, Tel-Aviv is more recognized due to it's size. I wanted to point out that on the page about Israel it says that Jerusalem is the largest city, which is false. Tel-Aviv has a population of about two million, while Jerusalem has a population of about a million and a half.
Then we do have to agree to disagree. I consider Tel-Aviv and Yafo the same city, as do all Israelies, because they have reached the size where they are the same city. Once two cities physically connect they become the same one. If you check any map from Israel it says Tel-Aviv Yafo as the same city. So when you count the size of the population, please count Yafo as well next time.
Why is there arguement here? Tel aviv is the internationally recognized capital of Israel. It's the capital recognized by the United Nations. Shia1 02:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
King David did not live in the State of Israel, and Hebron is not part of Israel nor does anyone claim it is the modern capital. The Fact is that Tel Aviv is the internationally recognized capital of Israel, and Israel is not entitled to its own facts either. Nor is Okedem entitled to his own facts concerning international law. There needs to be something that says Tel Aviv is the internationaly recognized capital in the article. Jerusalem should also be listed as where Israel says its capital is. My soloution is a good compromise. 88.153.87.107 04:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I mostly agree with Leifern, although I'm dubious that foriegn embassies are in Tel Aviv mostly because of "convenience." At any rate, it is ridiculous to call Tel Aviv Israel's capital, given that it fulfills just about none of the characteristics normally associated with capital cities (it is not so designated by the government of Israel, and it is not the seat of Israel's national government. I'm not sure how a city can be a capital if it fulfills neither of these criteria.) john k 19:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be best to move all this section to the Positions on Jerusalem article.
All that is needed here is something like.
The legal status of jerusalem is disputed. Israel regards Jerusalem as her capital, but ....
What do others think?
I think the reference to GDR is irrelevant. Everybody accepted Berlin as part of Germany, and eventually Berlin (E.) was accepted as "Hauptstadt der DDR" and all national had their embassies there.
No other state made claim to Berlin.
In Jerusalem, Israel's claim is a political ambition. I think it is perfectly correct to emphasise the dispute - but prbably on the Position of jerusalm page, not this one!
It would be nice to see a little more information on what was going on in the region of Israel between the years of 1517-1920, including information about the relations of Jews and non-Jews in the region during this period.
NEW: On Wikiversity there is now a " Jewish Studies School." Will it become a "duplication" of many things on Wikipedia? What should it's goals and functions be? Please add your learned views. Thank you. IZAK 09:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
MauroVan asked me to explain what I believe is problematic about his version: [15].
Maurovan, when the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, the Knesset, and the Jewish Agency for Israel all recognize that Arab citizens of Israel are discriminated against then there is no question that such discrimination does take place and this information should unambiguously stay in the human rights section. On the other hand the very same references demonstrate that these Israeli institutions are aware of the problem and are trying to correct it - much to Israel's merit I think.
Dianelos
10:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Not all people have the time or interest to go to the main page on a particular topic that is mentioned within an article like this, so that is what a summary is for. It is probably the preference of most wikipedia users and editors that there be a decent summary in every single section of articles, even if it includes a link. The issue mentioned above will probably be changed soon enough, but just because that article is lacking does not mean that we should abandon making a good summary here.
Some of the things that are a must for this article; human rights in Israel proper (generally decent); human rights in the occupied territories (not as good); issues with minorities (with mention of how the government is addressing this). I would also advize that the "freedom index" is used in the new version, and that you leave "the fence" issue to the main page. I also don't feel that the Israeli media deserves mention in this article; that does not have to do with human rights, it is a freedom of the press issue.
Lastly, I think when you say "inverted commas" you are saying the same thing as "quotation marks." If that is the case, I suggest that you use them, but only if the comments within are representative of the majority of sources that address the same issue as the quote. Markovich292 21:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Umpf.
Is there anybody out there wishing to solve this specific issue instead of always adding something else to the stack??
The article on Zimbabwe is simply not relevant. I don't see why the alleged low quality of that article should justify a low quality in this article. That's all I need to say on such useless comparisons.
The comparison with the article on the USA is a boomerang-argument, Humus sapiens. The article there talks about the barrier with Mexico (a link is given), Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo... if we want to use that article as a model, all issues like the Fence, the Occupied Territories, the status of Arab Palestinians inside Israel etc should be considered part of "Human rights in Israel" without any distinction between "Israel proper" and "Israel-occupied areas".
If you talked about the USA just to point out that no section on human rights is included in the main article ( USA) and therefore to suggest that we do the same, this could be acceptable to me: let's just give a link to Human rights in Israel without any summary. However, please tell me what you propose to do because you always change your position.
I don't understand why accusing the USA of being an uncritical supporter of the Israeli government should "say much" about me. What does it say? (anyway, I said that while asking a question, and you didn't answer my question which was relevant in order to understand your opposition to a part of my edits)
Let's upgrade the option list: should we (a) keep the section short without cites in inverted commas, (b) have a rather long section with all cites in inverted commas or (c) just give a link to the detailed article? Please everybody answer this last question! You just need to write a letter: a, b or c.
Lastly, quotation marks are also properly called inverted commas. My English sucks but no so much! :-) -- MauroVan 09:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I think a Human Rights section should exist in the main article of any country where there are serious allegations of human rights violations. On the other hand I think it's true that Israel is much better in this respect than any other country in the region. So why not make this basic fact clear at the very beginning and rewrite the section with something like this: "There is more respect for human rights in Israel than in any other country in the region. In Israel there is a democratic government, minorities are represented in the legislature, there is genuinely free press, and NGOs who publicly criticize the government and its policies. These freedoms in Israel are especially remarkable considering that Israel has been throughout its history in a virtually constant state of war and many of its neighbors have still official policies that call for its destruction, and considering that Israeli society is the victim of continuous terrorist attacks. Nevertheless the Israeli government is responsible for severe violations of the human rights of the non-Jewish people under its control. Specifically: 1) Significant discrimination against the Arab citizens of Israel, 2) Occupation of the West Bank and expansion of illegal expropriations and settlements there. 3) Holding aprox. 9,000 Palestinian prisoners some under administrative detention. 4) Use of torture in interrogations. 5) Bulldozing homes and punishing entire families for the crimes of one of its members. 5) Building the wall in the occupied territories. There have also been allegations of disproportionate use of force and even of war crimes committed by Israel in the Second Lebanon War. There are several Israeli organizations that recognize these problems and try to correct them.” It won’t be difficult to find good references for the above – the ACRI site is one good source and it certainly is not anti-Israeli. I think it does not honor nor befits Israel to whitewash these issues. And certainly this is all relevant information that should be present in an encyclopedia. Dianelos 19:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
A combination of A and B would be best. As I said before (and as Dianelos says above), there should certainly be a section in the main article when it is an important issue. It should not drone on and on, but it should certainly be longer than just 2 paragraphs. My view (and probably a common one) is that quotations give an article A) more credibility and B) give it more "life." The problem with the current article is that it hardly addresses the negative aspect of human rights, instead opting to use glittering generalities. It also lacks any good examples on either positive or negative aspects. Markovich292 00:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
HawkerTyphoon you toned down the expression "the discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel constitutes one of the most severe infringements of equality in the State of Israel." alleging this is POV. But exactly the same expression is present in the site of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel and in the site of the joint project of the Knesset and the Jewish Agency for Israel for drafting Israel's constitution. I mean how can this be POV? Wikipedia must be neutral, but this is like trying to be more catholic than the Pope. If Israeli society is mature and brave enough to recognize that such discrimination does take place, so should wikipedia. So if there aren't any objections here I intend to revert this back in a few days. Dianelos 11:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
from my talk page, okedem 12:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC):
Okedem - Unfortunately it sounds like you are pushing a point of view.Thousands of Kurds and Tats residents is certainly an important part of a location's history. However, removing references to important historical events goes strongly against Wikipedia policy. See for comparison MORE INFORMATION: [16] part of that refrenced template & [17] & [18] - ZANDWEB T. DON'T REMOVE AGAIN .
It says, in the article under the Israel-Lebanonese conflict, "Lebanon and Israel's," did the 30 year old soviet rockets really damage power supplies, food, and water like the huge US-funded/paid for airstrikes in Lebanon did? If not the sentence is misleading. Volksgeist 00:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
"Olmert annouced this morning a new special cabinet to deal with the issues or recovering the institutions and the infrastructures in the north" , and peres : the priority will be to rehabilitate the north of the country, it's rejunevation and strenghting it in all levels. [19] here it talks about 12,000 structures damaged wide spread in the noth [20], here it talks about long rehabilitations (talks about the thousands of dunams burnt...) plenty. [21] Amoruso
I think it's unfair to put Israel and Lebanon in the same boat (I wasn't under the impression that power/food/water supplies were hit in Israel), comparing the damage in Lebanon to Israel is like comparing a lion to a mouse. And a question, are non-English language sources acceptable on English Wikipedia? Volksgeist 06:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's look at the numbers. Hezbollah fired some 4,000 primitive
Katyusha rockets which curry a 20 kg warhead and are very inaccurate: less than one fourth of these rockets actually landed in Israeli cities (the rest presumably landing in nearby fields). Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). In contrast Israel's airforce flew over 12,000 combat missions, its navy conducted 2,500 bombardments, and its artillery shot over 100,000 shells.
[3] We can safely guess that each of these attacks delivered more than 20 kg of explosives and that most of them met their targets. So there is really no comparison. Stating in the same sentence that both Lebanon and Israel suffered widespread damage is grossly misleading.
Dianelos
11:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I have ammended the information to reflect the sources cited, the Guardian article reports 6000 claims for damage to buildings, but the article stated they had been destroyed. Also ammended to indicate that infrastructure includes cities, not just roads/bridges etc. Boynamedsue
Have deleted hebrew journalistic source and replaced with its source the estimates of the israzli environment agency. The estimates are a little vague (necessarily) but they appear to be classifying each appartment within a building seperately, so the 2000 buildings destroyed are actually 2000 properties destroyed (estimate). I feel the current wording is adequate as it is not clear from the text how many buildings were damaged ,how many properties in damaged buildings were still habitable, etc etc, lets leave it at this until until the fog of war clears and there are accurate figures available. BNS
12,000 buildings is rediculous! Where? It has to be counting rather light damage, like people went to the bomb shelter so mold grew or something. I was up north during the bombing. Most of the rockets were landing in open fields. The estimate I've heard is 900 landed in populated areas. Each would have to do damage to over ten buildings. Being that I had a friend who was literally 20 ft from a rocket that exploded and he was uninjured, I doubt these little rockets could each do damage to 10 buildings a piece. Shia1 02:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe a way to say what's accurate would be to say the rockets did sever damage to Israel's Economy. The infrastructure wasn't damage so much. That's not an accurate statement. Shia1 00:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I am agreeing with you that the economy was damaged, perhaps even severely. I would not argue if the word severely was used. People up north are poor people and they were out of jobs for a month. THat is perhaps severe. But infrastructure, like electricity, roads, water, etc. wasn't severely damaged. The lights are on in every house up north, and were on most of the war. Egged still goes up there, the water is running fine, and ran fine the entire war. TV and cable are on, and never went off in most of the affected area. THat's what I mean by the infrastructure wasn't severely damaged. One cable car, while annoying, isn't severe war damage. Just take the bus. 88.153.87.107 01:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
aww come on, these numbers are VERY highly exaggerated. most of the rockets fired into israel hit either nothing or military targets. those numbers dont make any sense at all. I dont know if its sympathy israel wants or to show how "bad" hezbollah is, but they cant be speaking for all of the destruction in lebanon that has been caused. if by infrastructure you mean that wide open fields and military targets then this quote should stay, other than that get rid of it because it is very misleading. Mac33c 01:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Would be great if somebody could write a short component about this.
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