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This archive page covers approximately the dates between 13 April 2005 and 29 November 2005.
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Islamofascism (term)/Archive04. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Chaosfeary 11:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page. Previous discussions:
Look to the talk pages Talk:Slogan 'Islamofascism' and Talk:List of political epithets for much discussion of this text. --- Charles Stewart 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Given that President Bush explicitly made refernce to the term "Neofacism" in his latest speech on the War Against Terror, it seems illogical to have a redirect here merely to assuage the sensabilities of the politically correct. 10/11/05
WIKIPEDIA IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA ! DO YOU GET IT??? When a reader wants to look up a term he is not to be misdirected to another "word" page in an effort to misdirect his inquiry to a policically whitewashed and censored article because of bunch of self serving wiki editors want to politicize the encyclopedia. So this article is being re-instated . If you do not know what an encyclopedia is then you should not be editing it. -- CltFn 13:08, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete: 8 Keep: 26 (of whom one wants a rename) Merge and/or redirect: 23
The majority wanted to either merge/redirect or delete. The compromise was to merge several contentious pages into one with a new name where the issue of the intersection of fascism and religion could be discussed in context. This was to avoid contentious religious bigotry.-- Cberlet 17:29, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The consensus was very clearly to make this a redirect. If you want to recheck that, by all means open a discussion, and even (if no obvious consensus emreges) a poll — but don't just recreate the article like this. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The previous AfD netted roughly equal numbers of "Keep" and "Merge/Redirect" votes, and was closed as a "Keep". However, Mel Etitis has interpreted this result and the closing admin's assessment as "a clear consensus to redirect". Is this appropriate? How is this correct? Is there a wiki policy or guideline that allows admins to declare closing admins' judgments as "clearly" incorrect, and to institute the opposite decision? I'd hoped Mel might deign to explain on the talkpage, but as this hasn't happened I'm wondering whether anyone else knows. Babajobu 17:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
What seems to happen with Wikipedia, and this is regretable, is that a certain number of articles are politically controlled by whatever dominant ideological group happens to be in force on those pages ( and sometimes that includes admins in some cases) . Sadly this often over-rides the encyclopedic needs of the Wikipedia reader who stumble on articles that have been sanitized by ideological extremists. It has been argued , that this is human nature and this comes with the territory of a free online user editable encyclopedia, it is however wrong and will never be the last word for a source of knowledge. Its too bad that so many articles are functionnaly censored , within an encyclopedia that aims for the free distribution of knowledge. In any case, I firmly stand behind the correctness that this article on ISLAMOFASCISM stay as its own article. And even though I can neither force a horse to drink water at a well or a group of editors to chose facts over their own ideological convictions I am convinced that future generations of editors will have a greater appreciation of the value of unvarnished truth than we sometimes find in todays' generation of wiki-editors-- CltFn 21:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, this is silly. Clearly Mel Etitis thinks it is beneath him to explain his actions to the wikiproles mucking about on the talk page, so I'm not going to waste any more time here. Babajobu 05:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Mel seems to have a basic misunderstanding that 26 Keep votes less than 23 Redirect votes. But Mel is much smarter than the closing admin, he can divine the concensus that he agree's with, and then enforce it with his own powers. Prosecutor, Judge, Jury, and Bailiff all rolled into one.
For a more accurate vote count at the original VfD, see User talk:Mel Etitis/Afd-Islamofascism (Delete: 8, redirect (or delete): 23, keep: 22, sock-puppets, vague, etc.: 6). For more discussion of the issue, see Talk:Islamofascism/Archive02. Note that the issue at the time was clouded by a hatred-fuelled Islamophobia, represented by Klonimus and Enviroknot (together with a host of sock-puppets, now all, or all that we know of, permanently banned).
Protecting the page is meant to ca;m down the edit-warring and to allow a space for people to discuss the issue, not to allow PoV-pushers to have fun attacking the admin who protected it. If the belief is that the page has been wrongly protected, the correct procedure is to ask for it to be unprotected, giving the reasons, at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection.
While I realise that those for whom Islam is a perfect replacement for the evil empire of the Soviet Union will deperately want to have as many articles as possible in which to vent their spleen, there is no need for this article. We not only have the article to which it redirects, as well as List of political epithets, but also Islamic fascism and others. If the Wikipedia community has changed its mind since the article was made into a redirect, then that will be a pity, but it will have to be followed. Until proper discussion of the issue, though, the original consensus should stand. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Since the difference, if any, between "Islamofascism" (272K Google hits) and "Islamic Fascism" (77.5K Google hits) eludes me, I have no objection to having a single merged article on the topic. But redirecting both into Neofascism and religion is an error, imo, akin to redirecting white supremacy to bigotry. FRS 22:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
The increased level of hostility on this talk page is a pretty good indication of why this page was redirected. By moving the discussion to Neofascism and religion the larger pool providing peer pressure has resulted in better edits, fewer revert wars, and much less naked antagonism. This page and others like it are a magnet for hyperbolic edit wars on multiple sides of the issue. Overt religious bigotry quickly appears. Wikipedia deserves better. It is best served by keeping the redirect to Neofascism and religion. I used to have a large pet iguana, more than five feet long. When it got angry it puffed up its throat sack and made growling noises. For some reason this page reminds me of that iguana, a primitive beast. We aspire to a more civilized form of discourse here.-- Cberlet 20:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I have posted a notice why I have unprotected this page and reverted the redirect. Any interested parties might want to comment there further.
While I'm about it, may I personally state that I find the term "Islamofascist" repugnant, unintelligent, abusive, derogatory and (for emphasis) idiotic. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I am not against the epiteth but surely against the concept. We, here, in WP, are not promoting anybody. There are no acclaimed fascists or islamists in WP. However, there are some people here who are trying to argue against the fact that they are anti-islam!!! Please look at your talk pages for better understandings!
Talking about Islamofascism is not something strange! Islam is centuries older than Fascism or communism. The problem here is very clear... If you give me a gorilla evidence that bin Laden (who is the representative of the extremist islamist ideology) got something to do with Mussolini or Hitler than I'll resign! Otherwise, the term is absolutly an epiteth.
Apart from this and that. What would you call Ku klux klan? What would you call Children of Israel? Do they have any Fascism relationship?! No!!! So please think abou that! -- Svest 16:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Provide one example, please, of an Islamic activist, anywhere on earth, who promotes corporatism.
Failure to provide an example can mean only one of the following things:
Cheers, BrandonYusufToropov 19:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean --- neither more nor less."
"The question is", said Alice, "whether you CAN make words mean so many different things."
Okies, I just finnished alot of work folding in the criticism of the old article into a new article. I hope everyone likes it, and we can gradually move towards a concensus.
There is a criticism section which can be filled out by wikipedia's expert panel of critics of Islamofascism. Let's try to keep this civil and focus on being encyclopedic. Klonimus 20:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I put them in the critical quotes section. Perhaps you want to read this again more carefully, before you pass judgement? Klonimus 20:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm impressed that rather than engaging with other editors, BYT just reverts their work on the spot. If the Mufti makes BYT so uncomfortable, he could have just commented it out. But instead he chooses to revert, which implies that he dimisses all of the effort and work done so far. I think that's kind of rude, and not in keeping with principals of dawah which require muslims to have good manners to all people at all times.
I'm also interested by why the verifiable meeting of the mufti with Hitler makes him so uncomfortable. The Mufti did meet with hitler, and did have influence on Islamist movmements in 1930s-1950s. This relationship makes me uncomfortable, but probably not for the same reasons as BYT. Klonimus 21:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm unable to discern the purpose of these reverts. I agree with SV and KM as to best variant of page to date.-- FRS 22:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
This back and forth isn't ever going to produce a decent article. Klonimus, you're engaged in exactly the kind of editing that makes people want this to be deleted. You wrote above "I personally gave up on this article ever being restored to wikipedia. But now that it has been. I'm going to do my part to make it FAC." And then you add the Grand Mufti-Hitler stuff again?? That has nothing to do with the word "Islamofascism."
I'm going to move this to Islamofascism (term) to hammer home that this page is about the WORD Islamofascism, and not whether the word actually refers to anything, because it's not our job to decide that. (And if it does refer to anything real, it has nothing to do with Hitler!) SlimVirgin (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, the sections I either deleted or made invisible are below. They're both unsourced. Everything in the earlier versions that directly pertains to the origins or use of the word, and that cites a credible source is, so far as I can see, in the current version. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
The exact definition of the term Islamofascsism is nebulous and flexible. A general theme is that Islamofascsism refers to political movements that seek to impose by violence or retain through undemocratic means governments aimed at perpetuating elements of Islamic fundamentalism.
Some users of the term seem to include the notion that Islamofascism:
Some applications of the term "Islamofascism" specifically refer to the Muslim Brotherhood and similar movements in Sunni Islam inspired by the writings of Sayyid Qutb, while others use it to refer to all highly politicized strains of Islam, including Shi'a radicalism as practised in Iran. A more common and less loaded term for these politicized strains of Islam, which seek to replace secular governments in Muslim countries with Sharia law, is Islamist. Note, however, that Islamism is a broad political category which covers also political movements such as Turkey's Justice and Development Party which do not seek to overthrow secular constitutions. (See also Islamic Democracy)
Some have argued that this use of the term is a misapplication, as the word "fascism" has been traditionally invoked to describe the merger of state and corporate power. Political commentators have argued that the fusion of Arab (particularly Saudi) and Iranian oil wealth and the totalitarian ideology of a theocratic movement with global ambitions, could be interpreted as a form of fascism.
Opponents of the term argue that "Islamofascism" is simply a derogatory epithet directed towards Islam as a whole, and not a real political concept or ideology. They claim that the term attempts to conflate the neutral concept of Islamism with the negatively perceived concept of Fascism. They cite this usange as being an example of poisoning the well by creating judgmental terminology for polical discourse.
Some critics have argued that this use of the term is a misapplication, as the word "fascism" has been traditionally invoked to describe the merger of state and corporate power. Political commentators have argued that the fusion of Arab (particularly Saudi) and Iranian oil wealth and the totalitarian ideology of a theocratic movement with global ambitions, could be interpreted as a form of fascism.
Many muslims feel that comparing their religion to secular ideologies such as Nazism or other forms of fascism is very offensive.
-- CltFn 23:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Honesty and integrity do not seem to be the dominant quality here so lets cut to the chase. What is going on here is more than sharing concerns with other editors. While presenting a front as a interested participant in the debate BrandonYusuf is playing dirty behind the scenes, calling on a specific list of editors to come to the page to help him force his POV version through by outnumbering editors with opposing views. -- CltFn 13:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the article at this moment is as good as it's been. It's very well-sourced, and the term is presented as just that, a term/concept that is used by some political commentators and now also by George Bush, without speaking to whether the term has an objectively real referent. I think this is exactly how the article must be written, a la Vast right-wing conspiracy, The Great Satan, et cetera. A couple comments: Slim has moved the Juan Cole quote from the "criticisms" section to the lead, which I think is fine. However, it means there are now several more examples of "uses" of the term than of "criticisms" of the term in those specific sections. We should probably add a critical quote or two to the criticisms section. Also, I think we should be strict about all additions to the article being sourced, and being identified as the view of that source rather than plain truth. Nobody agrees on anything here. All we can do is catalogue the views that are out there, and weave it into a narrative to whatever extent that can be done. Babajobu 03:08, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the two lists "academics and commentators" and "organizations and think tanks" for a couple of reasons. First of all, the lists add absolutely no meaning to the article. For instance, we don't know whether these people and these groups are in the list because they themselves are islamofascists (a list of islamofascists is what you would logically expect in an article about the topic of islamofascism). Secondly, none of them (as far as I can tell) devote themselves to the study of the subject of "Islamofascism" per se, they're just people and groups that have bandied about the term at least once. We don't even know what they said about islamofascism and in what context. So as far as I can tell, the lists are only there to fluff up the article and make it look more substantial. It's like having an article on Punk Rock and having a list of "commentators on punk rock" rather than a list of punk rock musicians. -- Lee Hunter 04:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
FRS, do you have a source for your change to the intro, viz. that the word refers to "some totalitarian manifestations of the broader movement of Islamism which resemble fascism," as opposed to Islamism per se. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, there's no need to point out that Juan Cole is writing on his blog. We either regard it as a credible source and use it without comment, or we don't and therefore shouldn't use it at all. Here's what Wikipedia:Verifiability#Dubious_sources says about blogs: "Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website." As an academic historian, I would say he counts as a "known ... researcher in a relevant field ..." and in addition, his blog is a well known one. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
What do Crusades, Islamic democracy and American Terrorism have to do with this topic? Surely their distance from it are as great or greater than Arabs and anti-semitism. However, I think the propaganda and disinformation links are reasonable enough. I also think if a Judeofascism (term) article exists we should link to it. But I think that's unlikely, because so far as I know it's not a term used frequently enough to be notable. But if the article does exist, we should certainly link to it. Babajobu 14:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
"groups that are described as 'Islamofascist are engaging in jihad, today"
<--------
Calm down? I'm perfectly calm, Brandon; a little bored, perhaps, but calm. The little smiley face at the end of my last comment was intended to indicate this. :-) I hope it has the same effect here. Okay, I'll try to walk through this a little further. I referred to "groups descibed as Islamofascist". Not called this by me, but described as that by commentators such as those in the bygone list: e.g., Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, or any of the other political commentators who show up when you google Islamofascism. I don't think it is an indication of "personal bias" or "strong feelings" on my part to cite the musings of political commentators without commenting myself on whether these musings are accurate. Do you really need me to get a citation for you of a commentator referring to Al Qaeda as Islamofascist? Plenty of them do it, I have to think you've read such claims as frequently as I have. It is also my understanding that groups such as Al Qaeda consider themselves to be engaged in jihad. In fact, if they do not consider themselves engaged in jihad, then I will readily grant that they are not. It is up to them to define for us their own motivations, and their own understanding of their actions. So, in summary: (1) numerous commentators characterize groups such as Al Qaeda as "Islamofascist"; this does not mean they are Islamofascist, it means they have been characterized as such. (2) It is my understanding that such groups regard themselves as engaged in jihad, as per their public statements. Do you really disagree with either of these two points? Babajobu 17:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC) ps – :-)
Brandon, please don't spam the talkpage with large, all-capped, multi-spaced pseudo-forms. Now I see that you are upset. I am sorry if I somehow upset you. This was not my intention, and I really don't think I said anything offensive. This entire discussion is academic because I removed the
Jihad link before you even began all this talk. For better or worse, we are simply discussing things for the sake of discussion. I agree with you that the definition of "Islamofascist" is disputed. You'll note that every single time I've used the term "Islamofascism" on this talkpage I've put it in quotes. I do this to avoid implying that it is an objectively real phenomenon rather than a political term like
Great Satan or
Vast right-wing conspiracy. I sympathize with your anger at the use of the term, but there's no need to take it out on me because I've not asserted that "Islamofascism" actually exists. As for my "making this stuff up as I went along" in the course of the talkpage discussion, well, no, I was referring to those comments I've read by commentators who use the term "Islamofascism". The existence of those comments is objectively real, and a few of them are in the article as examples of use of the term. If you want to fill out your own form, I invite you to do so. But I'm not going to spend 45-minutes finding citations for ten questions as a talk=page exercise that has no immediate bearing on the article. However, I can't really believe that you doubt that, say, Al Qaeda or Hamas have been referred to as fascist by right-wing political commentators. If you really want citations for that for your own personal edification, they're easy to find, and you can get them yourself.
Anyway, as I say, take it easy, the existence of this article is not confirmation in anyone's eyes that the term "Islamofascism" is objectively real. That's not what articles on political terms do. Babajobu 18:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
<----- Quick return for one question: where did I make a "sly implication" that you dig Al Qaeda?? I have no clue what gave you that notion. I suspect that you've become a little tooused to such things, to the point that you now see them where they don't exist. I don't mind being called a "cynical, self-righteous ideologue", I've been called worse. Nevertheless, I don't think I did anything to earn that particular insult. Babajobu 20:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I have been entirely respectful to you and everyone else with whom I have communicated on this page. This is unsurprising, because in fact I do not disrespect editors of the Muslim religion or any other. You are a smart guy, Brandon, and must be able to recognize the distinction between (1) myself associating Muslims with Mussolini and Hitler, and (2) observing that many political commentators do so in their use of the term "Islamofascist". This sort of distinction is important, because without it Wikipedia has no hope of covering controversial topics in a dignified and NPOV manner. Working on the Great Satan article does not ipso facto mean one is anti-American. Working on Zionism and racism does not ipso facto mean one is an antisemite. And working on Islamofascism does not ipso facto mean one is an Islamophobe. Surely you understand all this. Regarding your above points: (a) This is an interesting point, and there is truth to it. I would bet that there are indeed plenty of racists who resent being told not to use the n-word and who check the Wikipedia entry to demand indignantly that the topic be covered, only to be pleasantly surprised that an article is already there. But still, you are right that "Islamofascist" occupies a more slippery place in public discourse than that word. And that goes to my answer to point (B), too, Brandon. It's just not Wikipedia's place to change the position a term occupies in public discourse. If in the future "Islamofascist" is used by no mainstream commentators and is broadly regarded as equivalent to the n-word, then its Wikipedia article will reflect that. But that is not now the case, and Wikipedia can only reflect its present use. Certainly it is already regarded as deeply offensive by some, and the article should reflect that. But we cannot pretend that a word that is presently used in mainstream publications (including regularly in the Irish Independent, the most widely-read broadsheet in this country) is universally "unacceptable in civilized English-speaking circles". Wikipedia's articles can only reflect reality, they cannot seek to change it. Finally, I do not think that any disagreement with me constitutes a personal attack. I only once asked you not to personally attack me, and that was after the one time you did, indeed, personally attack me. Anyway, as I said, I've already forgiven you for that.
I won't be on for another 24 hours or so, so won't be able to keep up yesterday's blistering place, but when I am back I will dutifully check this page and respond to any comments. Regards, Babajobu 06:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Striver, I don't object to your efforts to link "Islamofascism" to other terms, but you just inserted an adverbial clause that didn't modify anything. "In the same way that Judeofascism is sometimes used" just hung at the end of the opening sentence. Babajobu 15:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, if we are going to mention links with an organization like IHR, then we should describe those links more concretely. "Associated" sounds implicatory and vague. I know that Sobran gave a speech to IHR and that the transcript was reproduced in JHR, and in that speech he referred to himself as a "Holocaust stipulator", i.e. that he didn't have the time or the will to investigate it, but he assumed its existence. If he has denied the Holocaust elsewhere, or is a staff-writer for JHR, then we can put it in, but I think we really need sources and specifics. There is only one quote in the "criticisms" section and I would hate for it to be devalued with uncited information. Can you find a source that indicates what exactly are his specific associations with IHR or JHR other than delivering a speech to them? Even saying "who has written articles for..." would be better, if true. Babajobu 17:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
FRS 20:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Nine hours and 40 edits ago I proposed the following introductory sentence that survived for about 20 minutes:
Accordingly, I still prefer an introduction along the following lines:
In the interest of accuracy, I removed a small sentence at the very end of the article that stated that the 'fascism' half of Islamofascism may be a misnomer, since it has traditionally referred to a merger of corporations and the state. That's incorrect. Wikipedia's own entry for fascism explains at length how it's just not that simple, and that since World War II, the de facto definition for millions - probably even billions - of people is that it's simply synonymous with extreme totalitarianism and authoritarianism. wikipediatrix 18:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Somewhere in yesterday's flurry of edits the following was taken out:
The exact definition of the term Islamofascsism is nebulous and flexible. A general theme is that Islamofascsism refers to political movements that seek to impose by violence or retain through undemocratic means governments aimed at perpetuating elements of Islamic fundamentalism.
Some users of the term seem to include the notion that Islamofascism
I don't know what objections are made against this passage.—aside from those expressed above, you could review Talk:Islamofascism/Archive01#removed_characterization for some of them. The most important objection, which still stands, is that there are no sources for this analysis and none have been forthcoming, despite repeated requests. (This probably means something; I'm sure you can figure out what.)
It is not up to editors here to figure out what some users (which?) of the term seem (to the author, anyway) to be saying. Citation of a source that says "Islamofascist groups, which include this, that, and the other bunch, are those which share some characteristic, another characteristic, and especially a third characteristic"—that would be useful. This know-nothing brainbarf is not. — Charles P. (Mirv) 23:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Striver, you know a great deal about Islam and are a valuable and respected contributor to Wikipedia. However, your edits too often involve faulty formatting and glaring grammatical errors--it is especially worrying when these edits are to the lead paragraph of an article. Your last edit read: "Other view its use as empty and hysterical propaganda, short of a direct insult." There shouldn't be two spaces before "empty". The subject "other" should be plural or the sentence is incoherent and reads terribly. If you are not a native speaker of English then I apologize: in that case, your English is so good that I assumed you were a native speaker and were just being a little lazy. But if you are a native speaker, please put in the extra few moments required to make sure your edits are grammatically sound. Thanks, Babajobu 07:58, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, supposedly what we've established so far is that ...
And ...
So. I have a four-part request for anyone who signs on in agreement, more or less, with the four points above.
Brandon, I don't understand why you cannot see the arguments others are making here. Regardless of its offensiveness, the term "Islamofascism" is a commonly used, and by notable people. The same cannot be said for "Judeofascism", and the claim that someone who believes that an article on "Islamofascism" should exist, but not one on "Judeofascism", is being a hypocrite is false because it completely ignores this crucial point. There is no policy that Wikipedia articles should not exist solely because they describe terms people find "hateful and offensive"; if that were the case, Wikipedia would definitely not have a Nigger article. Jayjg (talk) 18:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I highly recommend a read of the September 13, 2003, NYT article by this name written by Alexander Stille.
It quotes George Orwell as saying a few years after WWII: "the word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable."
It notes that Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy complained, essentially, that “islamofascism,” as a description of, for example Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban gives a bad name to (Italian, 1930’s-1940’s) fascists, who were “more benign.”
It provides the views of a number of academics on the historical (in)accuracy of using “fascism” as a descriptor for any form of Islamism, even the radical or militant types associated with bin Laden or the present regime in Iran.
Among the authorities cited:
According to Stille, De Felice, for example, considers it wrong to apply the term Fascist to “anything but the movement founded in Italy by Mussolini in 1919, which collapsed at the end of World War II.”
Gentile is said to have defined Fascism as: "A mass movement, that combines different classes but is prevalently of the middle classes, which sees itself as having a mission of national regeneration, is in a state of war with its adversaries and seeks a monopoly of power by using terror, parliamentary tactics and compromise to create a new regime, destroying democracy."
“Other characteristics on most scholars' checklists: the rejection of both liberalism and socialism; the primacy of the nation over the rights of the individual; the demonization of the nation's enemies; the elimination of dissent and the creation of a single-party state; the dominant role of a charismatic leader; the appeal to emotion and myth rather than reason; the glorification of violence on behalf of a national cause; the mobilization and militarization of civil society; an expansionist foreign policy intended to promote national greatness.”
Paxton is said to insist that "Fascism is a malady of failed democracies," and "There can be no authentic fascism before democracy, or outside societies whose citizens are deeply engaged in mass politics."
Euben is quoted: "Fascism is nationalistic and Islamicism is hostile to nationalism," and "Fundamentalism is a transnational movement that is appealing to believers of all nations and races across national boundaries. There is no idea of racial purity as in Nazism. Islamicists have very little idea of the state. It is a religious movement, while Fascism in Europe was a secular movement. So if it's not what we really think of as nationalism, and if it's not really like what we think of as Fascist, why use these terms?"
De Grazia: "What was so striking about the proclamations of Osama bin Laden after Sept. 11," she said, "is that they were so different from anything we are familiar with. He gave these long rants which were highly spiritual and which completely lacked the Western Machiavellian structure we are used to."
De Grazia also notes that critics use the term Fascism to attack present day policies and personalities far removed both historic Fascism and Islam, including U.S. President Bush’s own policies "The fact that people are using the term fascist to refer to such extremely different phenomena tells you that it has lost most of its descriptive power," she said. "I think the problem is that we are dealing with all sorts of new, strange political phenomena -- Osama bin Laden, Hindu nationalism in India, the Le Pen phenomenon in France, Silvio Berlusconi in Italy, Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive force -- and we don't have the right words to describe these things."
Gleason, while admitting that he has “used the analogy with the Fascist era out of a desire to provoke,” adds "The word fascist is so overloaded that it's a bad term for any aspect of contemporary reality," but "I am worried that we are going through a kind of anti-liberal revolt, belief in a very strong state, a contempt for pluralism, for a 'soft' welfare state and a sense that we cannot afford certain freedoms." He added, "It might have some shock value that can help you see things that our usual vocabulary can prevent you from seeing." -- FRS 18:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
One point worth bearing in mind that BYT and some others seem not to appreciate is that "fascist," at least in the US, has generally been used more in the Orwellian sense of "something not desireable" as opposed to what is generally considered "hate speech." To quote Mr Stille: "In the late 1960's, the time of civil rights and Vietnam War protests, (Fascist) was widely used to describe everything from police brutality to compulsory bedtime for children." Many honest people of good will (including at least one of the academcians interviewed by Stille) consider certain of Mr. Bush's policies, if not the man himself, to have fascistic tendancies. Moreover, in (at least) American colloquial English, terms like "Islamic fascism," "Christian fundamentalism', or American Imperialism are seldom heard with the expectation that the speaker believes that all believers in Islam are fascists, all Christians are fundamentalists or all Americans are imperialists. So I fail to understand the view that the term is "profoundly insulting to Muslims." FRS 05:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, I'm going to remove the trolling tag. Brandon has certainly been very upset, and the conversation has run in mind-numbingly repetitious circles, but I think all comments to the page have been in good faith. Normally a topic like this would attract trolling, which is why I think it's a shame to tag the page as trolled when I really don't think that it has been. Babajobu 05:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it's time to take this down. There is as of now not a single unsourced assertion in the article. In fact, the article doesn't even make assertions, it just attributes them to others, and provides citations. In that respect it's a model of factual accuracy and NPOV. Babajobu 06:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
You are evidently engaging in a minor edit war, and I feel that my contributions are getting caught in the crossfire, since each time you guys revert to your own version, my contributions with insights, comparisons and perspectives (opposing points of view) manage to disappear. Let's try to work out a good explanation of this word and the phenomenon it seeks to cover. Clearly, the word exists, as does the phenomenon. My question is: Is there an alternative accurate word that is used as a self-designation and not a political slur? See also Talk:Apartheid wall for a discussion of the difference. Thanks in advance for trying to see both sides of things. -- Big Adamsky 16:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
This is just obnoxious. Stop it. Are we going to have to ask for page protection for both this page and Neofascism and religion? No major changes or massive deletions on either page is appropriate at this point. Cut it out.-- Cberlet 18:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Guys, people are inserting lots of material with no sources whatsoever. This is a perfect recipe for endless edit wars. Please ONLY insert material that is carefully, thoroughly sourced, even if you think that what you are adding is the simplest truth that only a liar or an idiot could deny. This topic is very controversial, and not everyone will agree with what you add. Good sources will slow down the pace of edit wars. Thanks. Babajobu 05:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
This article should start with a disambig explaning that it is about the use of the term Islamofacism and that discusion of the relation between Islam and Facism can be found at Neofascism and religion#Islam. It was on the condition that this article covers the term were as the other covers the general discusion that many people voted to keep this article rather then just have it redirect.-- JK the unwise 15:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Interestingly, Juan Cole, who is quoted in this article as criticising use of the term Islamofascist, is not beyond using the 'F' word himself, at least as applied to Likud and Zionist Revisionism
I object to the prescence of Micheal Savage on this Page. It places him here only to mention his mention of the term. Yet he is not a respectable authority on politics nor is he an accurate political commentator. It's not important to anyone that it is his favorite term as I'm sure there are many other lesser known shows or demagouges or private people who use this term frequently- it is somewhat irrelevent. Could you imagine how long and inane an article on pears would be if we mentioned every individual in the wiki that reportedly liked pears- c'mon providing a lot of info is fine, but I think this is overdoing it.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 13 April 2005 and 29 November 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Islamofascism (term)/Archive04. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Chaosfeary 11:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page. Previous discussions:
Look to the talk pages Talk:Slogan 'Islamofascism' and Talk:List of political epithets for much discussion of this text. --- Charles Stewart 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Given that President Bush explicitly made refernce to the term "Neofacism" in his latest speech on the War Against Terror, it seems illogical to have a redirect here merely to assuage the sensabilities of the politically correct. 10/11/05
WIKIPEDIA IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA ! DO YOU GET IT??? When a reader wants to look up a term he is not to be misdirected to another "word" page in an effort to misdirect his inquiry to a policically whitewashed and censored article because of bunch of self serving wiki editors want to politicize the encyclopedia. So this article is being re-instated . If you do not know what an encyclopedia is then you should not be editing it. -- CltFn 13:08, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete: 8 Keep: 26 (of whom one wants a rename) Merge and/or redirect: 23
The majority wanted to either merge/redirect or delete. The compromise was to merge several contentious pages into one with a new name where the issue of the intersection of fascism and religion could be discussed in context. This was to avoid contentious religious bigotry.-- Cberlet 17:29, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The consensus was very clearly to make this a redirect. If you want to recheck that, by all means open a discussion, and even (if no obvious consensus emreges) a poll — but don't just recreate the article like this. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The previous AfD netted roughly equal numbers of "Keep" and "Merge/Redirect" votes, and was closed as a "Keep". However, Mel Etitis has interpreted this result and the closing admin's assessment as "a clear consensus to redirect". Is this appropriate? How is this correct? Is there a wiki policy or guideline that allows admins to declare closing admins' judgments as "clearly" incorrect, and to institute the opposite decision? I'd hoped Mel might deign to explain on the talkpage, but as this hasn't happened I'm wondering whether anyone else knows. Babajobu 17:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
What seems to happen with Wikipedia, and this is regretable, is that a certain number of articles are politically controlled by whatever dominant ideological group happens to be in force on those pages ( and sometimes that includes admins in some cases) . Sadly this often over-rides the encyclopedic needs of the Wikipedia reader who stumble on articles that have been sanitized by ideological extremists. It has been argued , that this is human nature and this comes with the territory of a free online user editable encyclopedia, it is however wrong and will never be the last word for a source of knowledge. Its too bad that so many articles are functionnaly censored , within an encyclopedia that aims for the free distribution of knowledge. In any case, I firmly stand behind the correctness that this article on ISLAMOFASCISM stay as its own article. And even though I can neither force a horse to drink water at a well or a group of editors to chose facts over their own ideological convictions I am convinced that future generations of editors will have a greater appreciation of the value of unvarnished truth than we sometimes find in todays' generation of wiki-editors-- CltFn 21:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, this is silly. Clearly Mel Etitis thinks it is beneath him to explain his actions to the wikiproles mucking about on the talk page, so I'm not going to waste any more time here. Babajobu 05:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Mel seems to have a basic misunderstanding that 26 Keep votes less than 23 Redirect votes. But Mel is much smarter than the closing admin, he can divine the concensus that he agree's with, and then enforce it with his own powers. Prosecutor, Judge, Jury, and Bailiff all rolled into one.
For a more accurate vote count at the original VfD, see User talk:Mel Etitis/Afd-Islamofascism (Delete: 8, redirect (or delete): 23, keep: 22, sock-puppets, vague, etc.: 6). For more discussion of the issue, see Talk:Islamofascism/Archive02. Note that the issue at the time was clouded by a hatred-fuelled Islamophobia, represented by Klonimus and Enviroknot (together with a host of sock-puppets, now all, or all that we know of, permanently banned).
Protecting the page is meant to ca;m down the edit-warring and to allow a space for people to discuss the issue, not to allow PoV-pushers to have fun attacking the admin who protected it. If the belief is that the page has been wrongly protected, the correct procedure is to ask for it to be unprotected, giving the reasons, at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection.
While I realise that those for whom Islam is a perfect replacement for the evil empire of the Soviet Union will deperately want to have as many articles as possible in which to vent their spleen, there is no need for this article. We not only have the article to which it redirects, as well as List of political epithets, but also Islamic fascism and others. If the Wikipedia community has changed its mind since the article was made into a redirect, then that will be a pity, but it will have to be followed. Until proper discussion of the issue, though, the original consensus should stand. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Since the difference, if any, between "Islamofascism" (272K Google hits) and "Islamic Fascism" (77.5K Google hits) eludes me, I have no objection to having a single merged article on the topic. But redirecting both into Neofascism and religion is an error, imo, akin to redirecting white supremacy to bigotry. FRS 22:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
The increased level of hostility on this talk page is a pretty good indication of why this page was redirected. By moving the discussion to Neofascism and religion the larger pool providing peer pressure has resulted in better edits, fewer revert wars, and much less naked antagonism. This page and others like it are a magnet for hyperbolic edit wars on multiple sides of the issue. Overt religious bigotry quickly appears. Wikipedia deserves better. It is best served by keeping the redirect to Neofascism and religion. I used to have a large pet iguana, more than five feet long. When it got angry it puffed up its throat sack and made growling noises. For some reason this page reminds me of that iguana, a primitive beast. We aspire to a more civilized form of discourse here.-- Cberlet 20:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I have posted a notice why I have unprotected this page and reverted the redirect. Any interested parties might want to comment there further.
While I'm about it, may I personally state that I find the term "Islamofascist" repugnant, unintelligent, abusive, derogatory and (for emphasis) idiotic. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I am not against the epiteth but surely against the concept. We, here, in WP, are not promoting anybody. There are no acclaimed fascists or islamists in WP. However, there are some people here who are trying to argue against the fact that they are anti-islam!!! Please look at your talk pages for better understandings!
Talking about Islamofascism is not something strange! Islam is centuries older than Fascism or communism. The problem here is very clear... If you give me a gorilla evidence that bin Laden (who is the representative of the extremist islamist ideology) got something to do with Mussolini or Hitler than I'll resign! Otherwise, the term is absolutly an epiteth.
Apart from this and that. What would you call Ku klux klan? What would you call Children of Israel? Do they have any Fascism relationship?! No!!! So please think abou that! -- Svest 16:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Provide one example, please, of an Islamic activist, anywhere on earth, who promotes corporatism.
Failure to provide an example can mean only one of the following things:
Cheers, BrandonYusufToropov 19:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean --- neither more nor less."
"The question is", said Alice, "whether you CAN make words mean so many different things."
Okies, I just finnished alot of work folding in the criticism of the old article into a new article. I hope everyone likes it, and we can gradually move towards a concensus.
There is a criticism section which can be filled out by wikipedia's expert panel of critics of Islamofascism. Let's try to keep this civil and focus on being encyclopedic. Klonimus 20:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I put them in the critical quotes section. Perhaps you want to read this again more carefully, before you pass judgement? Klonimus 20:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm impressed that rather than engaging with other editors, BYT just reverts their work on the spot. If the Mufti makes BYT so uncomfortable, he could have just commented it out. But instead he chooses to revert, which implies that he dimisses all of the effort and work done so far. I think that's kind of rude, and not in keeping with principals of dawah which require muslims to have good manners to all people at all times.
I'm also interested by why the verifiable meeting of the mufti with Hitler makes him so uncomfortable. The Mufti did meet with hitler, and did have influence on Islamist movmements in 1930s-1950s. This relationship makes me uncomfortable, but probably not for the same reasons as BYT. Klonimus 21:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm unable to discern the purpose of these reverts. I agree with SV and KM as to best variant of page to date.-- FRS 22:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
This back and forth isn't ever going to produce a decent article. Klonimus, you're engaged in exactly the kind of editing that makes people want this to be deleted. You wrote above "I personally gave up on this article ever being restored to wikipedia. But now that it has been. I'm going to do my part to make it FAC." And then you add the Grand Mufti-Hitler stuff again?? That has nothing to do with the word "Islamofascism."
I'm going to move this to Islamofascism (term) to hammer home that this page is about the WORD Islamofascism, and not whether the word actually refers to anything, because it's not our job to decide that. (And if it does refer to anything real, it has nothing to do with Hitler!) SlimVirgin (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, the sections I either deleted or made invisible are below. They're both unsourced. Everything in the earlier versions that directly pertains to the origins or use of the word, and that cites a credible source is, so far as I can see, in the current version. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
The exact definition of the term Islamofascsism is nebulous and flexible. A general theme is that Islamofascsism refers to political movements that seek to impose by violence or retain through undemocratic means governments aimed at perpetuating elements of Islamic fundamentalism.
Some users of the term seem to include the notion that Islamofascism:
Some applications of the term "Islamofascism" specifically refer to the Muslim Brotherhood and similar movements in Sunni Islam inspired by the writings of Sayyid Qutb, while others use it to refer to all highly politicized strains of Islam, including Shi'a radicalism as practised in Iran. A more common and less loaded term for these politicized strains of Islam, which seek to replace secular governments in Muslim countries with Sharia law, is Islamist. Note, however, that Islamism is a broad political category which covers also political movements such as Turkey's Justice and Development Party which do not seek to overthrow secular constitutions. (See also Islamic Democracy)
Some have argued that this use of the term is a misapplication, as the word "fascism" has been traditionally invoked to describe the merger of state and corporate power. Political commentators have argued that the fusion of Arab (particularly Saudi) and Iranian oil wealth and the totalitarian ideology of a theocratic movement with global ambitions, could be interpreted as a form of fascism.
Opponents of the term argue that "Islamofascism" is simply a derogatory epithet directed towards Islam as a whole, and not a real political concept or ideology. They claim that the term attempts to conflate the neutral concept of Islamism with the negatively perceived concept of Fascism. They cite this usange as being an example of poisoning the well by creating judgmental terminology for polical discourse.
Some critics have argued that this use of the term is a misapplication, as the word "fascism" has been traditionally invoked to describe the merger of state and corporate power. Political commentators have argued that the fusion of Arab (particularly Saudi) and Iranian oil wealth and the totalitarian ideology of a theocratic movement with global ambitions, could be interpreted as a form of fascism.
Many muslims feel that comparing their religion to secular ideologies such as Nazism or other forms of fascism is very offensive.
-- CltFn 23:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Honesty and integrity do not seem to be the dominant quality here so lets cut to the chase. What is going on here is more than sharing concerns with other editors. While presenting a front as a interested participant in the debate BrandonYusuf is playing dirty behind the scenes, calling on a specific list of editors to come to the page to help him force his POV version through by outnumbering editors with opposing views. -- CltFn 13:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the article at this moment is as good as it's been. It's very well-sourced, and the term is presented as just that, a term/concept that is used by some political commentators and now also by George Bush, without speaking to whether the term has an objectively real referent. I think this is exactly how the article must be written, a la Vast right-wing conspiracy, The Great Satan, et cetera. A couple comments: Slim has moved the Juan Cole quote from the "criticisms" section to the lead, which I think is fine. However, it means there are now several more examples of "uses" of the term than of "criticisms" of the term in those specific sections. We should probably add a critical quote or two to the criticisms section. Also, I think we should be strict about all additions to the article being sourced, and being identified as the view of that source rather than plain truth. Nobody agrees on anything here. All we can do is catalogue the views that are out there, and weave it into a narrative to whatever extent that can be done. Babajobu 03:08, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the two lists "academics and commentators" and "organizations and think tanks" for a couple of reasons. First of all, the lists add absolutely no meaning to the article. For instance, we don't know whether these people and these groups are in the list because they themselves are islamofascists (a list of islamofascists is what you would logically expect in an article about the topic of islamofascism). Secondly, none of them (as far as I can tell) devote themselves to the study of the subject of "Islamofascism" per se, they're just people and groups that have bandied about the term at least once. We don't even know what they said about islamofascism and in what context. So as far as I can tell, the lists are only there to fluff up the article and make it look more substantial. It's like having an article on Punk Rock and having a list of "commentators on punk rock" rather than a list of punk rock musicians. -- Lee Hunter 04:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
FRS, do you have a source for your change to the intro, viz. that the word refers to "some totalitarian manifestations of the broader movement of Islamism which resemble fascism," as opposed to Islamism per se. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, there's no need to point out that Juan Cole is writing on his blog. We either regard it as a credible source and use it without comment, or we don't and therefore shouldn't use it at all. Here's what Wikipedia:Verifiability#Dubious_sources says about blogs: "Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website." As an academic historian, I would say he counts as a "known ... researcher in a relevant field ..." and in addition, his blog is a well known one. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
What do Crusades, Islamic democracy and American Terrorism have to do with this topic? Surely their distance from it are as great or greater than Arabs and anti-semitism. However, I think the propaganda and disinformation links are reasonable enough. I also think if a Judeofascism (term) article exists we should link to it. But I think that's unlikely, because so far as I know it's not a term used frequently enough to be notable. But if the article does exist, we should certainly link to it. Babajobu 14:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
"groups that are described as 'Islamofascist are engaging in jihad, today"
<--------
Calm down? I'm perfectly calm, Brandon; a little bored, perhaps, but calm. The little smiley face at the end of my last comment was intended to indicate this. :-) I hope it has the same effect here. Okay, I'll try to walk through this a little further. I referred to "groups descibed as Islamofascist". Not called this by me, but described as that by commentators such as those in the bygone list: e.g., Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, or any of the other political commentators who show up when you google Islamofascism. I don't think it is an indication of "personal bias" or "strong feelings" on my part to cite the musings of political commentators without commenting myself on whether these musings are accurate. Do you really need me to get a citation for you of a commentator referring to Al Qaeda as Islamofascist? Plenty of them do it, I have to think you've read such claims as frequently as I have. It is also my understanding that groups such as Al Qaeda consider themselves to be engaged in jihad. In fact, if they do not consider themselves engaged in jihad, then I will readily grant that they are not. It is up to them to define for us their own motivations, and their own understanding of their actions. So, in summary: (1) numerous commentators characterize groups such as Al Qaeda as "Islamofascist"; this does not mean they are Islamofascist, it means they have been characterized as such. (2) It is my understanding that such groups regard themselves as engaged in jihad, as per their public statements. Do you really disagree with either of these two points? Babajobu 17:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC) ps – :-)
Brandon, please don't spam the talkpage with large, all-capped, multi-spaced pseudo-forms. Now I see that you are upset. I am sorry if I somehow upset you. This was not my intention, and I really don't think I said anything offensive. This entire discussion is academic because I removed the
Jihad link before you even began all this talk. For better or worse, we are simply discussing things for the sake of discussion. I agree with you that the definition of "Islamofascist" is disputed. You'll note that every single time I've used the term "Islamofascism" on this talkpage I've put it in quotes. I do this to avoid implying that it is an objectively real phenomenon rather than a political term like
Great Satan or
Vast right-wing conspiracy. I sympathize with your anger at the use of the term, but there's no need to take it out on me because I've not asserted that "Islamofascism" actually exists. As for my "making this stuff up as I went along" in the course of the talkpage discussion, well, no, I was referring to those comments I've read by commentators who use the term "Islamofascism". The existence of those comments is objectively real, and a few of them are in the article as examples of use of the term. If you want to fill out your own form, I invite you to do so. But I'm not going to spend 45-minutes finding citations for ten questions as a talk=page exercise that has no immediate bearing on the article. However, I can't really believe that you doubt that, say, Al Qaeda or Hamas have been referred to as fascist by right-wing political commentators. If you really want citations for that for your own personal edification, they're easy to find, and you can get them yourself.
Anyway, as I say, take it easy, the existence of this article is not confirmation in anyone's eyes that the term "Islamofascism" is objectively real. That's not what articles on political terms do. Babajobu 18:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
<----- Quick return for one question: where did I make a "sly implication" that you dig Al Qaeda?? I have no clue what gave you that notion. I suspect that you've become a little tooused to such things, to the point that you now see them where they don't exist. I don't mind being called a "cynical, self-righteous ideologue", I've been called worse. Nevertheless, I don't think I did anything to earn that particular insult. Babajobu 20:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I have been entirely respectful to you and everyone else with whom I have communicated on this page. This is unsurprising, because in fact I do not disrespect editors of the Muslim religion or any other. You are a smart guy, Brandon, and must be able to recognize the distinction between (1) myself associating Muslims with Mussolini and Hitler, and (2) observing that many political commentators do so in their use of the term "Islamofascist". This sort of distinction is important, because without it Wikipedia has no hope of covering controversial topics in a dignified and NPOV manner. Working on the Great Satan article does not ipso facto mean one is anti-American. Working on Zionism and racism does not ipso facto mean one is an antisemite. And working on Islamofascism does not ipso facto mean one is an Islamophobe. Surely you understand all this. Regarding your above points: (a) This is an interesting point, and there is truth to it. I would bet that there are indeed plenty of racists who resent being told not to use the n-word and who check the Wikipedia entry to demand indignantly that the topic be covered, only to be pleasantly surprised that an article is already there. But still, you are right that "Islamofascist" occupies a more slippery place in public discourse than that word. And that goes to my answer to point (B), too, Brandon. It's just not Wikipedia's place to change the position a term occupies in public discourse. If in the future "Islamofascist" is used by no mainstream commentators and is broadly regarded as equivalent to the n-word, then its Wikipedia article will reflect that. But that is not now the case, and Wikipedia can only reflect its present use. Certainly it is already regarded as deeply offensive by some, and the article should reflect that. But we cannot pretend that a word that is presently used in mainstream publications (including regularly in the Irish Independent, the most widely-read broadsheet in this country) is universally "unacceptable in civilized English-speaking circles". Wikipedia's articles can only reflect reality, they cannot seek to change it. Finally, I do not think that any disagreement with me constitutes a personal attack. I only once asked you not to personally attack me, and that was after the one time you did, indeed, personally attack me. Anyway, as I said, I've already forgiven you for that.
I won't be on for another 24 hours or so, so won't be able to keep up yesterday's blistering place, but when I am back I will dutifully check this page and respond to any comments. Regards, Babajobu 06:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Striver, I don't object to your efforts to link "Islamofascism" to other terms, but you just inserted an adverbial clause that didn't modify anything. "In the same way that Judeofascism is sometimes used" just hung at the end of the opening sentence. Babajobu 15:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, if we are going to mention links with an organization like IHR, then we should describe those links more concretely. "Associated" sounds implicatory and vague. I know that Sobran gave a speech to IHR and that the transcript was reproduced in JHR, and in that speech he referred to himself as a "Holocaust stipulator", i.e. that he didn't have the time or the will to investigate it, but he assumed its existence. If he has denied the Holocaust elsewhere, or is a staff-writer for JHR, then we can put it in, but I think we really need sources and specifics. There is only one quote in the "criticisms" section and I would hate for it to be devalued with uncited information. Can you find a source that indicates what exactly are his specific associations with IHR or JHR other than delivering a speech to them? Even saying "who has written articles for..." would be better, if true. Babajobu 17:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
FRS 20:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Nine hours and 40 edits ago I proposed the following introductory sentence that survived for about 20 minutes:
Accordingly, I still prefer an introduction along the following lines:
In the interest of accuracy, I removed a small sentence at the very end of the article that stated that the 'fascism' half of Islamofascism may be a misnomer, since it has traditionally referred to a merger of corporations and the state. That's incorrect. Wikipedia's own entry for fascism explains at length how it's just not that simple, and that since World War II, the de facto definition for millions - probably even billions - of people is that it's simply synonymous with extreme totalitarianism and authoritarianism. wikipediatrix 18:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Somewhere in yesterday's flurry of edits the following was taken out:
The exact definition of the term Islamofascsism is nebulous and flexible. A general theme is that Islamofascsism refers to political movements that seek to impose by violence or retain through undemocratic means governments aimed at perpetuating elements of Islamic fundamentalism.
Some users of the term seem to include the notion that Islamofascism
I don't know what objections are made against this passage.—aside from those expressed above, you could review Talk:Islamofascism/Archive01#removed_characterization for some of them. The most important objection, which still stands, is that there are no sources for this analysis and none have been forthcoming, despite repeated requests. (This probably means something; I'm sure you can figure out what.)
It is not up to editors here to figure out what some users (which?) of the term seem (to the author, anyway) to be saying. Citation of a source that says "Islamofascist groups, which include this, that, and the other bunch, are those which share some characteristic, another characteristic, and especially a third characteristic"—that would be useful. This know-nothing brainbarf is not. — Charles P. (Mirv) 23:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Striver, you know a great deal about Islam and are a valuable and respected contributor to Wikipedia. However, your edits too often involve faulty formatting and glaring grammatical errors--it is especially worrying when these edits are to the lead paragraph of an article. Your last edit read: "Other view its use as empty and hysterical propaganda, short of a direct insult." There shouldn't be two spaces before "empty". The subject "other" should be plural or the sentence is incoherent and reads terribly. If you are not a native speaker of English then I apologize: in that case, your English is so good that I assumed you were a native speaker and were just being a little lazy. But if you are a native speaker, please put in the extra few moments required to make sure your edits are grammatically sound. Thanks, Babajobu 07:58, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, supposedly what we've established so far is that ...
And ...
So. I have a four-part request for anyone who signs on in agreement, more or less, with the four points above.
Brandon, I don't understand why you cannot see the arguments others are making here. Regardless of its offensiveness, the term "Islamofascism" is a commonly used, and by notable people. The same cannot be said for "Judeofascism", and the claim that someone who believes that an article on "Islamofascism" should exist, but not one on "Judeofascism", is being a hypocrite is false because it completely ignores this crucial point. There is no policy that Wikipedia articles should not exist solely because they describe terms people find "hateful and offensive"; if that were the case, Wikipedia would definitely not have a Nigger article. Jayjg (talk) 18:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I highly recommend a read of the September 13, 2003, NYT article by this name written by Alexander Stille.
It quotes George Orwell as saying a few years after WWII: "the word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable."
It notes that Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy complained, essentially, that “islamofascism,” as a description of, for example Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban gives a bad name to (Italian, 1930’s-1940’s) fascists, who were “more benign.”
It provides the views of a number of academics on the historical (in)accuracy of using “fascism” as a descriptor for any form of Islamism, even the radical or militant types associated with bin Laden or the present regime in Iran.
Among the authorities cited:
According to Stille, De Felice, for example, considers it wrong to apply the term Fascist to “anything but the movement founded in Italy by Mussolini in 1919, which collapsed at the end of World War II.”
Gentile is said to have defined Fascism as: "A mass movement, that combines different classes but is prevalently of the middle classes, which sees itself as having a mission of national regeneration, is in a state of war with its adversaries and seeks a monopoly of power by using terror, parliamentary tactics and compromise to create a new regime, destroying democracy."
“Other characteristics on most scholars' checklists: the rejection of both liberalism and socialism; the primacy of the nation over the rights of the individual; the demonization of the nation's enemies; the elimination of dissent and the creation of a single-party state; the dominant role of a charismatic leader; the appeal to emotion and myth rather than reason; the glorification of violence on behalf of a national cause; the mobilization and militarization of civil society; an expansionist foreign policy intended to promote national greatness.”
Paxton is said to insist that "Fascism is a malady of failed democracies," and "There can be no authentic fascism before democracy, or outside societies whose citizens are deeply engaged in mass politics."
Euben is quoted: "Fascism is nationalistic and Islamicism is hostile to nationalism," and "Fundamentalism is a transnational movement that is appealing to believers of all nations and races across national boundaries. There is no idea of racial purity as in Nazism. Islamicists have very little idea of the state. It is a religious movement, while Fascism in Europe was a secular movement. So if it's not what we really think of as nationalism, and if it's not really like what we think of as Fascist, why use these terms?"
De Grazia: "What was so striking about the proclamations of Osama bin Laden after Sept. 11," she said, "is that they were so different from anything we are familiar with. He gave these long rants which were highly spiritual and which completely lacked the Western Machiavellian structure we are used to."
De Grazia also notes that critics use the term Fascism to attack present day policies and personalities far removed both historic Fascism and Islam, including U.S. President Bush’s own policies "The fact that people are using the term fascist to refer to such extremely different phenomena tells you that it has lost most of its descriptive power," she said. "I think the problem is that we are dealing with all sorts of new, strange political phenomena -- Osama bin Laden, Hindu nationalism in India, the Le Pen phenomenon in France, Silvio Berlusconi in Italy, Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive force -- and we don't have the right words to describe these things."
Gleason, while admitting that he has “used the analogy with the Fascist era out of a desire to provoke,” adds "The word fascist is so overloaded that it's a bad term for any aspect of contemporary reality," but "I am worried that we are going through a kind of anti-liberal revolt, belief in a very strong state, a contempt for pluralism, for a 'soft' welfare state and a sense that we cannot afford certain freedoms." He added, "It might have some shock value that can help you see things that our usual vocabulary can prevent you from seeing." -- FRS 18:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
One point worth bearing in mind that BYT and some others seem not to appreciate is that "fascist," at least in the US, has generally been used more in the Orwellian sense of "something not desireable" as opposed to what is generally considered "hate speech." To quote Mr Stille: "In the late 1960's, the time of civil rights and Vietnam War protests, (Fascist) was widely used to describe everything from police brutality to compulsory bedtime for children." Many honest people of good will (including at least one of the academcians interviewed by Stille) consider certain of Mr. Bush's policies, if not the man himself, to have fascistic tendancies. Moreover, in (at least) American colloquial English, terms like "Islamic fascism," "Christian fundamentalism', or American Imperialism are seldom heard with the expectation that the speaker believes that all believers in Islam are fascists, all Christians are fundamentalists or all Americans are imperialists. So I fail to understand the view that the term is "profoundly insulting to Muslims." FRS 05:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, I'm going to remove the trolling tag. Brandon has certainly been very upset, and the conversation has run in mind-numbingly repetitious circles, but I think all comments to the page have been in good faith. Normally a topic like this would attract trolling, which is why I think it's a shame to tag the page as trolled when I really don't think that it has been. Babajobu 05:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it's time to take this down. There is as of now not a single unsourced assertion in the article. In fact, the article doesn't even make assertions, it just attributes them to others, and provides citations. In that respect it's a model of factual accuracy and NPOV. Babajobu 06:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
You are evidently engaging in a minor edit war, and I feel that my contributions are getting caught in the crossfire, since each time you guys revert to your own version, my contributions with insights, comparisons and perspectives (opposing points of view) manage to disappear. Let's try to work out a good explanation of this word and the phenomenon it seeks to cover. Clearly, the word exists, as does the phenomenon. My question is: Is there an alternative accurate word that is used as a self-designation and not a political slur? See also Talk:Apartheid wall for a discussion of the difference. Thanks in advance for trying to see both sides of things. -- Big Adamsky 16:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
This is just obnoxious. Stop it. Are we going to have to ask for page protection for both this page and Neofascism and religion? No major changes or massive deletions on either page is appropriate at this point. Cut it out.-- Cberlet 18:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Guys, people are inserting lots of material with no sources whatsoever. This is a perfect recipe for endless edit wars. Please ONLY insert material that is carefully, thoroughly sourced, even if you think that what you are adding is the simplest truth that only a liar or an idiot could deny. This topic is very controversial, and not everyone will agree with what you add. Good sources will slow down the pace of edit wars. Thanks. Babajobu 05:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
This article should start with a disambig explaning that it is about the use of the term Islamofacism and that discusion of the relation between Islam and Facism can be found at Neofascism and religion#Islam. It was on the condition that this article covers the term were as the other covers the general discusion that many people voted to keep this article rather then just have it redirect.-- JK the unwise 15:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Interestingly, Juan Cole, who is quoted in this article as criticising use of the term Islamofascist, is not beyond using the 'F' word himself, at least as applied to Likud and Zionist Revisionism
I object to the prescence of Micheal Savage on this Page. It places him here only to mention his mention of the term. Yet he is not a respectable authority on politics nor is he an accurate political commentator. It's not important to anyone that it is his favorite term as I'm sure there are many other lesser known shows or demagouges or private people who use this term frequently- it is somewhat irrelevent. Could you imagine how long and inane an article on pears would be if we mentioned every individual in the wiki that reportedly liked pears- c'mon providing a lot of info is fine, but I think this is overdoing it.