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This archive page covers approximately the dates between April 13 2005 and May 6 2005.
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Islamofascism/Archive02. Thank you. Lee Hunter 15:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Needs to be done:
I've not really got a high enough interest level to do this task well. --- Charles Stewart 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have time to criticize; but not to contribute. Well isn't that "convenient"? Porphyria 20:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That's an interesting excuse. I however would never accuse you of "weaselly" writing. Porphyria 21:16, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following unsourced characterization of "Islamofascism". My comments are interpolated, in italics:
Islamofascism is used by whom? to describe a an ideology with the following characteristics.
There are two general problems with this text:
— Charles P. (Mirv) 04:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, as a matter of fact I did. In no particular order.
Inshallah, you will never have to live in a totalitarian state or face islamist terrorism, because they both really suck. Klonimus 05:36, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that Klonimus' list could be useful, in that in focusses on specific wishes that exist in the world of extermist Islamism. However I do not think that Islamofascism should be regarded as a term that admits definition, rather it is a polemical term whose various deployments have led its meaning to be a family resemblance concept. It is absurd to suggest that all advocates of Sharia law have all the characteristics that Klonimus listed, and some of the better fits for the term, such as the supporters of the Iranian theocracy, are very far from being Wahhabist. It should be presented as a list of the kind of characteristics that motivates use of the term, but vary in terms of centrality to the concept.
One other thing, that is stressed in the article: there is such a thing as moderate Islamism. --- Charles Stewart 08:44, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The key points being.
Elements of Fascism in Islamofascism.
Klonimus 01:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1930s-1940s relations of islamist movements with fascists during WWII will have to be a subtopic in this article.
Klonimus 20:34, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus 07:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Quite a bit of the Pan Arabism of the 1950s-1960s was inspired by Nazism.—Perhaps so (the idea predates the Nazis, though as a form of ethnic nationalism, it has some intellectual antecedents in common with Nazism—and Zionism for that matter. . .) However, Arab nationalism and Pan-Arabism (look them up) were both primarily secular ideologies, by no means exclusively Islamic ( Michel Aflaq, one of the godfathers of Ba'athism, was a Christian). And what evidence do you have of the Mufti's influence on Islamism? Yasser Arafat, you will recall, was not an Islamist. — Charles P. (Mirv) 20:37, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed the section. Before it goes back in, some of these questions ought to be answered, and referenced properly:
— Charles P. (Mirv) 20:44, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's worse is this is just a red herring. "Islamofascists" is what a few rightwingnuts call Al Qaeda. What Klonimus is trying to push here is material about some Muslims who may or may not have been fascists, or been connected with fascists, in WWII. The only connection between the two is a/ the word "fascist" and b/ they were all Muslims. Unless Klonimus is trying to work on a thesis that all Muslims are fascists, he has nothing here to include. Grace Note 13:19, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
By virtue of using an epithet to chart a history of the fascistic tendency in 20th Century Islam. Was this ever attempted —in such a way— before? El_C 08:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Negative, you've yet to demonstrate that Islamofascism is a scholarly concept/name for this topic. You can't give an epithet a meaning it dosen't yet have, even if said epithet is worded very closely to resemble such a topic. If and/or when (you prove) it does, then you can go on to depict such an account using that title. Until then, it's original research. El_C 10:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with El C here; you can, of course, create any number of words using the formula: X + Fascist tendencies = Xofascism. How about 'Graecofascism'? 'Sinofascism'? 'Hindofascism'? The trouble is, having created the term, it's also easy to create a concept to go with it, and then to create a history. You don't even need to go outside the facts; there'll always be, in any nationality, race, or religion that's been around for a while, examples of people or groups acting badly. The term 'fascism' is being used in such a Usenet/school-debating-society way that that's all you need. Wikipedia isn't here to invent new concepts, nor to parrot whatever nonsense the U.S. neo-cons have come up with as they flail around trying to find reasons to attack other countries. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:21, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is just like " Nigger". The " Nigger" article talks about the word. It is not a catalog of bad things that black people have done. Likewise, "Islamofascist" should discuss the term and should not be a catalog of bad things that Muslims have done.
If you want to write about Islamic extremism, there are other subjects for that. Mirror Vax 11:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How do you respond the the various arguments that I've offered, here and on the VfD? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 13:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firebug, your edit summary which reads I agree that Wahhabism sucks, but we can't just present these allegations as fact in a NPOV encyclopedia.)
is stylistically not one that I find acceptable for an edit summary, no matter how reactionary and oppressive I find Wahhabism to be.
El_C 12:22, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you understand the concept of Orientalism, you understand the prejudice and bigotry behind those who promote the term "Islamofascism". -- Islamist 13:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okies, it looks like there is going to be quite a bit of heavy lifting before we come up a good NPOV article. The current edit/revert wars are not helping. I am especially disturbed by by certain users who are removing information from the article thus making it less useful. Especially notable is the fighting over the article's external links section, VfD'ing an article that was inprogress and being worked upon, and a general atmosphere of rancor created by bad faith actions.
Perhaps we can all draw upon the Islamic tradition of Ijma (Concensus of the Learned) to come up with an article that is agreeable to all. I think it's clear that people working on this article come from a wide range of political background. However to make a good article, you have to suspend your political beliefs and work on the subject of the article in good faith. If you can't do that, then you ought to recuse yourself.
Negative improvments are not helpful. If you have nothing positive to say, then restrict yourself to the talk page. Deleting other people's contributions while not contributing anything yourself does not further the objective of getting a finished article.
Basicly as I see it several issues need to be hammered out. I hope this list grows out organically. I look forwards to peoples comments.
Klonimus 20:25, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Do niggers exist? If so, what are they? If they do not exist, why do people talk about them? The invention of a word is the invention of an idea, even if the underlying phenomenon does not exist, the word does, and so does the idea.
- Even if niggers do not exist: What is meant by people who say the word "nigger"? One could come up with a collection of concepts that are implied when people talk about "niggers".
- Did "niggers" exist pre some date or other [let us say, the beginnings of the New World slave trade]?
- Characteristics of niggers; nigger culture.
The 'nigger' analogy fails on a number of counts, the most important being that the word 'nigger' is nothing more than an insulting way to refer to people of a different race; its extension is the same as that of 'black person'. 'Islamofascist', on the other hand, may be used to insult people, but it isn't co-extensive with 'Muslim', nor with 'fascist', and the claim is that it representes a distinct political concept. I don't think that it does, and I've argued against keeping this article on the VfD — but not for the spurious reason that it's no different from 'nigger'. Klonimus' questions make sense for the most part, it's just that they constitute orriginal research, which isn't allowed in Wikipedia. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I broadly agree with Yuber on this; the mini-definitions of Isalmic concepts are unhelpful, if not PoV. The point of the links is that they lead to full articles; if they were neutral, helpful definitions, then there's be no harm, but as it is I think that you should leave the links unadorned.
Also, as the article on Bat Ye'or makes clear, to use the term 'scholarly' without qualification is misleading. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:26, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The 11th September attacks don't count as a political concept, so I've removed that link. It's hard to see what they have to do with so-called Islamofascism either.
Klonimus, it's not enough just to say in an edit summary that the tegram is relevant — you need to explain your view. Why do you think that we should cite so prominently the claims of a Nazi, trying to gain allies, and thus with a vested interest in showing that Nazism is in sympathy with Islam (or with whatever views his correspondent held)? If the telegram were from al-Huseyni to Himmler, that would be genuinely significant. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 14:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1. 9/11 is Important because the term islamofascism was invented/popularized to help explain the psychology behind the attacks.
2. Haj Huseini was enormously influential in Palestinian Politics. He never missed a single chance to inject more hate into the conflict and to constantly encourge the notion that the only final solution to the conflict was to kill all the jews by any means necessary. He severely poisoned any chance for reconcilliation with early leadership of the state, because of his flagrant and open nazism. Haj Hueseini was also a powerful Islamist philosopher, and influential in that movement.
3. When Himmler says there is a natural allience between muslims and nazi's on a shared basis of jew hatred, that is important to an article on Islamic Fascism.
Klonimus 14:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Not only have I not violated it, I'm in no danger of doing so. Indeed, as Grace Note reverted your last edits, you're more likely to risk violating it than I am. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 15:15, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I await with some glee our article on "Islamo yo' mother she fat ism". We need only have a Chris Hitchens article and we're away! Grace Note 13:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Nazis were not Christian. Pagan is a fairer description but it's not especially relevant here. I prefer "subjugated or destroyed". I'd like to see a source for "Political commentators ..." too. "comparing their religion" is a massive misstatement of the positions of both sides, while "comparison of Islamic extremism" is fair. "leaders throughout the Arab world" is not accurate since there were some on both sides, but perhaps "a number of ..."? Finally, MEMRI is not "Israeli" (unless you have a shred of evidence) and in any case nobody has ever caught them doing a bad translation, they are generally a good source. ObsidianOrder 23:15, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused. It's been pretty well established that they were good friends and probably egged each other on in their mutal desire to kill jews. Not many people got a personal tour of Auschwitz from Himmler, and left alive. So IMHO the opinions of Himmler on the natural friendship between Nazi's and Islamists is very relavent to this article.
Haj Husaini is responsible for the introduction of nazi sympathy into Islamist and Palestinian movements. He is an important figure in the history of Islamofascism.
Klonimus 03:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please avoid these personal speculations, Klonimus. Mel Etitis is an excellent editor, and it is you who is doing most of the POV pushing around here. --- Charles Stewart 10:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[ [2]]
Changed
" However some secular Muslims such as Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali feel that Islamism represents a a threat to the ideals of western democracies in the 21st century equal to that of fascism in the 20th century."
to
" Muslim apostates such as Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali feel that Islam represents a a threat to the ideals of western democracies in the 21st century."
The new language (Yuber) is less informative, since it removes the reference to fascism, and somewhat judgemental and snarky. I'm inclined to think that calling Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali as secular muslims is somewhat less judgemental than calling them apostates. But, I could be wrong.
Klonimus 03:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
An apostate means "One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause." It is a perfectly neutral term. Ibn Warraq refers to himself as an apostate. Also, Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali dislike "Islam" as a whole, not "Islamism". Until you can find me the part where either one of them claims that Islam is a threat equal to that of fascism, that part will remain out of the article.Yuber 03:36, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you read Ayaan's writings, and Ibn Warraq's books, you know that they both feel that Islamism is a threat to western democracies and their ideals. Thats common knowledge to anyone who has read those books. This is an encyclopedia, not a Ph.D thesis. Every line does not have to footnoted. An encyclopedia is a readable restatement of what is common knowledge to experts in each subject, rendered in an NPOV manner for the general reader. Klonimus 07:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm a bit perplexed by this section. Other than the Sobran quote I contributed, it's just a list of names with no context at all. In other words, no links (other than to wp articles which don't discuss "islamofascism") and no indication of what, if anything, they have to say about the subject. I've never seen something like this in WP. I propose deleting the whole section unless someone can provide more context to justify its existence. -- Lee Hunter 23:20, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lee, I don't think there can be any complaint if you simply delete the lot. If anyone wants to reinstate them, then they can surely give links and source their inclusion. A list of people who have used, or we think might have used the term "Islamofascism" is preposterous. It's like "reverse poisoning the well". We sling the shit and then say, here are other guys who have slung shit so we're okay to do it. Imagine taking this approach to all epithets. I can just see the "list of people who have called other people motherfuckers". Grace Note 02:55, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What a severe misrepresentation of something that wasn't all that meaningful to begin with. From the top:
. . .based on a common dislike of Jews and of the U.S. government. Much like the Mufti's alliance with the Nazis: enemy of my enemy, and so on. No further ideological connections were demonstrated. One might as well speak of IslamoAlbanianNationalism, based on al-Qaeda's loose financial and organizational ties with the KLA.
Posted under the rather misleading section title "Growing ties between Aryan Nation and Islamofascists" was the following:
Left out was the report that the FBI found no evidence that al-Qaeda wanted anything to do with Aryan Nations. Left out, but conspicuous by its absence, is the lack of any connection beyond the perceived common enemies of the two groups—one which, it should be said, al-Qaeda's inner leadership has given no sign of endorsing.
This is discussed above; I won't rehash it here.
And wasn't Martin Bormann repeatedly spotted in South America, and hey, didn't the U.S. government import some Nazis of its own? How very misleading.
A devotee of Adolf Hitler in his youth. Details are left out. Was he an unenthusiastic Hitler Youth, like the present Pope? Or was he a raving fanatical devotee? Does he still hold any Nazi beliefs? Have his Nazi beliefs, if he still holds them, had any influence on any Islamic organizations?
Perhaps he cannot be dismissed as a crackpot, but can he be dismissed as unsuccessful? The article reports that the FBI found no evidence of any such alliance in the United States. Did anyone in al-Qaeda listen to him? All these questions left unanswered.
— Charles P. (Mirv) 05:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Using a photo of people in Nazi uniforms at the head of a page about modern Muslims is not just misleading. It's POV pushing of the worst kind. It implies that modern "jihadists" are in some way connected with WWII fascists, which they are not. It implies that they self-identify as fascists, just as the WWII guys did, which they absolutely do not. "Fascist" is a playground insult, the kind of thing Chris Hitchens specialises in. It's a pity WP has dignified this nonsense with an article but truly sad that editors are working to spread the hatred. There is no such thing as "Islamofascism". Al Qaeda has no connection with fascist groups. They could not be less "fascist", so opposed to statism and state mechanisms are they. Grace Note 13:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You act as though relevant, objective facts were sufficient to determine such issues. :) BrandonYusufToropov 20:51, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, I like to keep up the pretence that we're making an encyclopaedia! I know it's silly but it keeps me going. Grace Note 22:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Porphria's latest edit summary, and accompanying deletions ("Saudi Princes are the majority shareholder of these corporations, Iranian Oil wealth is also significantly corporate, state controlled, and therefore fascistic") is so far from being remotely accurate that I couldn't let it pass. All state control is by definition fascistic? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:20, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Are we ever going to see sources for the stuff about "oil wealth" being exactly like "corporate power"? Or any of the stuff that's being pushed into this article in an attempt to substantiate an insult that has no more substance than "yo mama she fat"? Grace Note 01:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed this bit about Iran and Saudi Arabia: "the ideology of totalitarian theocracy allegedly espoused by these govenments" There's no need to give it such a convoluted spin. Everyone agrees (I believe) that both countries are theocracies. However, since fascism has never been particularly associated with religion and, if anything, fascists are known for being antagonistic to various religions, calling those countries "theocracies" hardly proves your point. I left in "totalitarian" because it is relevant to the definition of fascism. Of course, sooner or later we'll have to address that other "totalitarian theocracy" - the Vatican. :) -- Lee Hunter 01:58, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Supporters of the term contend that the fusion of oil wealth within governments that are arguably totalitarian is consistent with the definition of fascism."
Who? Who says that? I'd like to call them a fool to their faces. What definition of fascism? Which states are you arguing are "totalitarian"? Whoever does say this clearly doesn't understand how Iranian politics works. I suggest they are pointed in the direction of an article about it. Or Saudi politics. Absolute monarchy, maybe. Totalitarian state, no way. "Totalitarian" does not mean "some repression" or "some rights lacking". Those who argue that these states are "totalitarian" are simply throwing another epithet at them. So their "contention" is that their epithet is justified because they throw another epithet at the states in quesion.
If you must push this nonsense, please cite sources and make it someone else's nonsense. That's if you can find any. Rightwing bloggers who need tying down by 3pm don't count. Grace Note 02:57, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I still wonder about the list of supposed characteristics. Klonimus, who wrote it, has cited no specific sources, instead claiming that it is a synthesis of "many different articles in Commentary Magazine, American Jewish Congress Monthly, Blog postings, articles/books/lectures by Victor Davis Hanson, a large personal library of books on post 9/11 etc." However, without specific sources it's impossible to know whether each and every one of these was asserting that Wahhabism and Salafism are fascist. Perhaps this is why the list bears no resemblance to any definition of fascism. Perhaps it should be removed until the sources are specified. —
Charles
P.
(Mirv) 23:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Note that we are talking about what people who use the term Islamofascism mean, not what we think it does mean, should mean or should not mean.
"Propose the existence of an eternal violent conflict" means that the conflict exists right now, not that it is bound to happen in the future as Yusuf's edit implies. The Koran/Hadith propose that there is always a conflict between Muslims and infidels.
Klonimus 20:07, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You know what they say about the devil and scripture. I wasn't aware though that the Qur'an was a treatise on fascism. Quite the opposite, in fact. Shall we trot out all the verses on tolerance and consensus? Grace Note 23:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph just doesn't work for me. My notes are in square brackets "It should be noted that [the] above definitions [definitions? what definitions? they are nothing more than a bunch of random statements which are specific to a certain critical view of radical Islam. They don't "define" anything at all and certainly not fascism] are controversial [only controversial in the sense that one or two people on WP insist that they are somehow meaningful], and intended to explicate [?] what is commonly me[a]nt by those who use the terms "Islamofascist" and "Islamofascism". There is much controversy over if the above definition actually describes a type of fascism [arguments between a few wp editors doesn't constitute a controversy. Those bullets don't come within a million miles of any real world definition of fascism], per a generally accepted definition of fascism, or instead describes variants of political islam" -- Lee Hunter 20:34, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You cant make a 1:1 connection. It's silly to argue that you can, and I am not doing that. The question is what do people mean when they say islamofascism? If you look at instances where islamofascism has been used, That list contains the points which the speaker is trying to make. I really dont see why this is so controversial. Islamofascism is a term specific to a certain critical view of radical Islam. If you are going to talk about that term and the people who use it, you need to descibe the term as it is used. Regardless of if this usage offends you.
Certain editors insist on creating great controversy and inserting large amounts of qualifiing language into this article untill it becomes a world salad dressed with political correctness. I'd like to try and isolate all the controversy into a section on controversy, and keep the simple documentary parts free of qualifing language that makes the article less readable and destroy's any semblence of encyclopedic style.
Personally at this point I would be happy if the article merely said that
"Thinking outside the box" is entirely frowned on in Wikipedia. A theoretical enquiry into what "Islamofascism" might mean is totally out of place in an encyclopaedia, particularly one that expressly forbids original research. Grace Note 23:29, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, sticking 'inuse' on an article simply to stop people reverting your edits is even less acceptable than reverting an article with the template in place; there was no sign at all that you were in fact engaged in an extensive edit. The present version, while flawed, is better than the one it replaces, both in terms of accuracy and neutrality and in terms of grammar. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:47, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It took you nearly twenty minutes to look for spelling and grammatical errors? And you had to do it in edit mode? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Those who have a strong point of view usually see attempts to produce neutrality as being biased. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:26, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thus it should be deleted. - Stancel 16:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
... by supplying specific citations of this term's use. The unattributed "some say"/"others say" stuff is a rather ineffective fig leaf placed over a WP debate. BrandonYusufToropov 08:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
If indeed there are to be quotes, they have to be selected in an NPOV fashion. And where's the grandmother of them all, Hitchen's coinage of the term? The Orwell one of course is a general condemnation of the use of the term "fascism"; I'd venture it's the earliest incarnation of a pre-usenet form of Godwin's Law. Regardless, I don't see much point in a series of quotes condemning the term; one should suffice. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see Jayjg's point here; Orwell is talking about the use of the word "fascism" in general — therefore he's talking about its use here. If Socrates has said "all men are mortal", he'd have been talking about me as well as his father; that's the way universal generalisations work. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:56, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
How about merging this into a new article called Fascist (epithet)? There's some bits in the Fascist article, the new (and equally odorous) Christofascism article etc. It seems more useful and interesting to address the question of how the word "fascism" is used to slur one's enemies than to have an article on each spindly variant (and thereby losing the very useful context of how this pattern has been repeated for the past 60 years or so). -- Lee Hunter 19:08, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Don't merge. This is pretty ridiculous. We voted, merge was one of the options, it was not that popular, now just leave it alone. ObsidianOrder 01:36, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Other fronts of Vfd's are still open. The term Islamofascism surely exist. Christofascism and Americofascism has been created on a wrong basis because they are used so rarely. However, Christian fascism and American Fascism do exist in parallel along with Islamofascism. Indeed there are tens of books discussing the issue, at least American fascism as I am not concerned about Christian Fascism for the time being:
The point here is that some argue that we don't have to merge the whole x-fascism articles on Fascism as epithet. Why not? This will explain the real reality. All terms are invented by the opponent sides. So how come one exist and others are excluded? It will be one of the big mistakes ever in WP to neglect this fact. This is an encyclopedia, not a podium! Imagine a reader aware of the existance of both terms searching WP and finding one but none of the rest of the team!!! So using the right terminology, articles should exist; I would prefer to see them merged (because they are all epithets), but if not they SHOULD all exist. Cheers and respect -- Svest 02:22, May 3, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up
There is no reason why they should all exist as articles, if some of them don't exist in reality. You can invent any term or phrase you wish, but some are real (and commonly used) and refer to real things, while others do not. This is a logical fallacy, or perhaps a [[WP::POINT]]. ObsidianOrder 02:30, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Then perhaps you would like to add your knowledge into the article of the "real things" that Islamofascism refers to? Yuber 02:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Just wondering, I guess I didn't catch it while it was happening, but the current version of the page is ridiculous, there's nothing in it but a few quotes, of which one has nothing to do with the term, and three of the other four talk about why there is no such thing. Why was everything else removed? I don't see any discussion leading up to it. I don't really like the old version of the page but it had a whole lot more substance, it could be improved instead of being (essentially) deleted. ObsidianOrder 21:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
FayssalF - What was there, you ask?
What you quoted above only deals with item 3, and would be a great addition to an article about it (as opposed to, say, a reason for deleting it). You can't just say "it was original research", you have to show why you think each individual piece to be deleted is not sourced and cannot be sourced - and some of it obviously cannot be original research, because it simply reports facts. Can you explain why you think you can delete 70% of an article that "survived a VfD"? ObsidianOrder 04:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
If you insist, I'll answer that:
I'll stand up for Firebug's compromise. The rest is POV nonsense. I'm for at an absolute minimum moving this page to Uses of the term "Islamofascism" and redirecting Islamofascism to that. I'd prefer a broader article about "fascist" as an epithet, so that we can discuss usage of "Jewish fascism" and "American fascism", which are equally misplaced epithets. All sourced, all correctly presented. Not the utter farrago of an article you are arguing for. No way is that what Wikipedia is here for. Grace Note 05:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I see that someone revised the opening to remove the "supporters of the term" and "opponents of the term" nonsense. Thanks, you saved me the trouble. Not only does that construction make the article seem juvenile, it does nothing but reference an internal WP debate which doesn't really belong in the article and it also misrepresents the various opinions about the article and the word. It's not so much that there are actual supporters and opponents of the term itself - it's more a question of whether the article should depict the word as a simple slur (approximately on the level of nigger) or whether the article should present Islamofascism as a recognized political or social movement. -- Lee Hunter 01:10, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
It's a catch-22 for the proponents of a POV article. They cannot source analysis of connections between Islamism and fascism because there are none (the page used Klonimus's own analysis, which is utterly unacceptable -- we do not include original research). There are none because it is simply used as an insult by the likes of Hitchens and other rightists. But they don't want a page that just says it is an insult. So they need to source an analysis of connections between Islamism and fascism.
I say we go from the page with just the quotes and that the people who want a broader article present their material here on talk first, with sources. I think I'd be very suspicious of the motives of editors who did not want to go through that process on a contentious page. Grace Note 06:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
fas·cism (Merriam-Webster) 1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
fas·cism (American Heritage Dictionary) 1.a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
I did a Google search of this term, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Islamofascism&btnG=Search, and I get mainly 64,000 pages. I know I have heard the term used on Rush Limbaugh. This website, http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j111401.html, claims Christopher Hitchens (who authored the book No One Left To Lie Too), coined the word. I do not know what to say about this term specially, but I had people tell me that adding a link to this article under "related links" is considered POV pushing. Zscout370 (talk) 23:54, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
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This archive page covers approximately the dates between April 13 2005 and May 6 2005.
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Islamofascism/Archive02. Thank you. Lee Hunter 15:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Needs to be done:
I've not really got a high enough interest level to do this task well. --- Charles Stewart 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have time to criticize; but not to contribute. Well isn't that "convenient"? Porphyria 20:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That's an interesting excuse. I however would never accuse you of "weaselly" writing. Porphyria 21:16, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following unsourced characterization of "Islamofascism". My comments are interpolated, in italics:
Islamofascism is used by whom? to describe a an ideology with the following characteristics.
There are two general problems with this text:
— Charles P. (Mirv) 04:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, as a matter of fact I did. In no particular order.
Inshallah, you will never have to live in a totalitarian state or face islamist terrorism, because they both really suck. Klonimus 05:36, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that Klonimus' list could be useful, in that in focusses on specific wishes that exist in the world of extermist Islamism. However I do not think that Islamofascism should be regarded as a term that admits definition, rather it is a polemical term whose various deployments have led its meaning to be a family resemblance concept. It is absurd to suggest that all advocates of Sharia law have all the characteristics that Klonimus listed, and some of the better fits for the term, such as the supporters of the Iranian theocracy, are very far from being Wahhabist. It should be presented as a list of the kind of characteristics that motivates use of the term, but vary in terms of centrality to the concept.
One other thing, that is stressed in the article: there is such a thing as moderate Islamism. --- Charles Stewart 08:44, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The key points being.
Elements of Fascism in Islamofascism.
Klonimus 01:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1930s-1940s relations of islamist movements with fascists during WWII will have to be a subtopic in this article.
Klonimus 20:34, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus 07:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Quite a bit of the Pan Arabism of the 1950s-1960s was inspired by Nazism.—Perhaps so (the idea predates the Nazis, though as a form of ethnic nationalism, it has some intellectual antecedents in common with Nazism—and Zionism for that matter. . .) However, Arab nationalism and Pan-Arabism (look them up) were both primarily secular ideologies, by no means exclusively Islamic ( Michel Aflaq, one of the godfathers of Ba'athism, was a Christian). And what evidence do you have of the Mufti's influence on Islamism? Yasser Arafat, you will recall, was not an Islamist. — Charles P. (Mirv) 20:37, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed the section. Before it goes back in, some of these questions ought to be answered, and referenced properly:
— Charles P. (Mirv) 20:44, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's worse is this is just a red herring. "Islamofascists" is what a few rightwingnuts call Al Qaeda. What Klonimus is trying to push here is material about some Muslims who may or may not have been fascists, or been connected with fascists, in WWII. The only connection between the two is a/ the word "fascist" and b/ they were all Muslims. Unless Klonimus is trying to work on a thesis that all Muslims are fascists, he has nothing here to include. Grace Note 13:19, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
By virtue of using an epithet to chart a history of the fascistic tendency in 20th Century Islam. Was this ever attempted —in such a way— before? El_C 08:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Negative, you've yet to demonstrate that Islamofascism is a scholarly concept/name for this topic. You can't give an epithet a meaning it dosen't yet have, even if said epithet is worded very closely to resemble such a topic. If and/or when (you prove) it does, then you can go on to depict such an account using that title. Until then, it's original research. El_C 10:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with El C here; you can, of course, create any number of words using the formula: X + Fascist tendencies = Xofascism. How about 'Graecofascism'? 'Sinofascism'? 'Hindofascism'? The trouble is, having created the term, it's also easy to create a concept to go with it, and then to create a history. You don't even need to go outside the facts; there'll always be, in any nationality, race, or religion that's been around for a while, examples of people or groups acting badly. The term 'fascism' is being used in such a Usenet/school-debating-society way that that's all you need. Wikipedia isn't here to invent new concepts, nor to parrot whatever nonsense the U.S. neo-cons have come up with as they flail around trying to find reasons to attack other countries. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:21, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is just like " Nigger". The " Nigger" article talks about the word. It is not a catalog of bad things that black people have done. Likewise, "Islamofascist" should discuss the term and should not be a catalog of bad things that Muslims have done.
If you want to write about Islamic extremism, there are other subjects for that. Mirror Vax 11:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How do you respond the the various arguments that I've offered, here and on the VfD? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 13:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firebug, your edit summary which reads I agree that Wahhabism sucks, but we can't just present these allegations as fact in a NPOV encyclopedia.)
is stylistically not one that I find acceptable for an edit summary, no matter how reactionary and oppressive I find Wahhabism to be.
El_C 12:22, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you understand the concept of Orientalism, you understand the prejudice and bigotry behind those who promote the term "Islamofascism". -- Islamist 13:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okies, it looks like there is going to be quite a bit of heavy lifting before we come up a good NPOV article. The current edit/revert wars are not helping. I am especially disturbed by by certain users who are removing information from the article thus making it less useful. Especially notable is the fighting over the article's external links section, VfD'ing an article that was inprogress and being worked upon, and a general atmosphere of rancor created by bad faith actions.
Perhaps we can all draw upon the Islamic tradition of Ijma (Concensus of the Learned) to come up with an article that is agreeable to all. I think it's clear that people working on this article come from a wide range of political background. However to make a good article, you have to suspend your political beliefs and work on the subject of the article in good faith. If you can't do that, then you ought to recuse yourself.
Negative improvments are not helpful. If you have nothing positive to say, then restrict yourself to the talk page. Deleting other people's contributions while not contributing anything yourself does not further the objective of getting a finished article.
Basicly as I see it several issues need to be hammered out. I hope this list grows out organically. I look forwards to peoples comments.
Klonimus 20:25, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Do niggers exist? If so, what are they? If they do not exist, why do people talk about them? The invention of a word is the invention of an idea, even if the underlying phenomenon does not exist, the word does, and so does the idea.
- Even if niggers do not exist: What is meant by people who say the word "nigger"? One could come up with a collection of concepts that are implied when people talk about "niggers".
- Did "niggers" exist pre some date or other [let us say, the beginnings of the New World slave trade]?
- Characteristics of niggers; nigger culture.
The 'nigger' analogy fails on a number of counts, the most important being that the word 'nigger' is nothing more than an insulting way to refer to people of a different race; its extension is the same as that of 'black person'. 'Islamofascist', on the other hand, may be used to insult people, but it isn't co-extensive with 'Muslim', nor with 'fascist', and the claim is that it representes a distinct political concept. I don't think that it does, and I've argued against keeping this article on the VfD — but not for the spurious reason that it's no different from 'nigger'. Klonimus' questions make sense for the most part, it's just that they constitute orriginal research, which isn't allowed in Wikipedia. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I broadly agree with Yuber on this; the mini-definitions of Isalmic concepts are unhelpful, if not PoV. The point of the links is that they lead to full articles; if they were neutral, helpful definitions, then there's be no harm, but as it is I think that you should leave the links unadorned.
Also, as the article on Bat Ye'or makes clear, to use the term 'scholarly' without qualification is misleading. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:26, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The 11th September attacks don't count as a political concept, so I've removed that link. It's hard to see what they have to do with so-called Islamofascism either.
Klonimus, it's not enough just to say in an edit summary that the tegram is relevant — you need to explain your view. Why do you think that we should cite so prominently the claims of a Nazi, trying to gain allies, and thus with a vested interest in showing that Nazism is in sympathy with Islam (or with whatever views his correspondent held)? If the telegram were from al-Huseyni to Himmler, that would be genuinely significant. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 14:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1. 9/11 is Important because the term islamofascism was invented/popularized to help explain the psychology behind the attacks.
2. Haj Huseini was enormously influential in Palestinian Politics. He never missed a single chance to inject more hate into the conflict and to constantly encourge the notion that the only final solution to the conflict was to kill all the jews by any means necessary. He severely poisoned any chance for reconcilliation with early leadership of the state, because of his flagrant and open nazism. Haj Hueseini was also a powerful Islamist philosopher, and influential in that movement.
3. When Himmler says there is a natural allience between muslims and nazi's on a shared basis of jew hatred, that is important to an article on Islamic Fascism.
Klonimus 14:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Not only have I not violated it, I'm in no danger of doing so. Indeed, as Grace Note reverted your last edits, you're more likely to risk violating it than I am. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 15:15, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I await with some glee our article on "Islamo yo' mother she fat ism". We need only have a Chris Hitchens article and we're away! Grace Note 13:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Nazis were not Christian. Pagan is a fairer description but it's not especially relevant here. I prefer "subjugated or destroyed". I'd like to see a source for "Political commentators ..." too. "comparing their religion" is a massive misstatement of the positions of both sides, while "comparison of Islamic extremism" is fair. "leaders throughout the Arab world" is not accurate since there were some on both sides, but perhaps "a number of ..."? Finally, MEMRI is not "Israeli" (unless you have a shred of evidence) and in any case nobody has ever caught them doing a bad translation, they are generally a good source. ObsidianOrder 23:15, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused. It's been pretty well established that they were good friends and probably egged each other on in their mutal desire to kill jews. Not many people got a personal tour of Auschwitz from Himmler, and left alive. So IMHO the opinions of Himmler on the natural friendship between Nazi's and Islamists is very relavent to this article.
Haj Husaini is responsible for the introduction of nazi sympathy into Islamist and Palestinian movements. He is an important figure in the history of Islamofascism.
Klonimus 03:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please avoid these personal speculations, Klonimus. Mel Etitis is an excellent editor, and it is you who is doing most of the POV pushing around here. --- Charles Stewart 10:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[ [2]]
Changed
" However some secular Muslims such as Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali feel that Islamism represents a a threat to the ideals of western democracies in the 21st century equal to that of fascism in the 20th century."
to
" Muslim apostates such as Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali feel that Islam represents a a threat to the ideals of western democracies in the 21st century."
The new language (Yuber) is less informative, since it removes the reference to fascism, and somewhat judgemental and snarky. I'm inclined to think that calling Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali as secular muslims is somewhat less judgemental than calling them apostates. But, I could be wrong.
Klonimus 03:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
An apostate means "One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause." It is a perfectly neutral term. Ibn Warraq refers to himself as an apostate. Also, Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali dislike "Islam" as a whole, not "Islamism". Until you can find me the part where either one of them claims that Islam is a threat equal to that of fascism, that part will remain out of the article.Yuber 03:36, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you read Ayaan's writings, and Ibn Warraq's books, you know that they both feel that Islamism is a threat to western democracies and their ideals. Thats common knowledge to anyone who has read those books. This is an encyclopedia, not a Ph.D thesis. Every line does not have to footnoted. An encyclopedia is a readable restatement of what is common knowledge to experts in each subject, rendered in an NPOV manner for the general reader. Klonimus 07:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm a bit perplexed by this section. Other than the Sobran quote I contributed, it's just a list of names with no context at all. In other words, no links (other than to wp articles which don't discuss "islamofascism") and no indication of what, if anything, they have to say about the subject. I've never seen something like this in WP. I propose deleting the whole section unless someone can provide more context to justify its existence. -- Lee Hunter 23:20, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lee, I don't think there can be any complaint if you simply delete the lot. If anyone wants to reinstate them, then they can surely give links and source their inclusion. A list of people who have used, or we think might have used the term "Islamofascism" is preposterous. It's like "reverse poisoning the well". We sling the shit and then say, here are other guys who have slung shit so we're okay to do it. Imagine taking this approach to all epithets. I can just see the "list of people who have called other people motherfuckers". Grace Note 02:55, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What a severe misrepresentation of something that wasn't all that meaningful to begin with. From the top:
. . .based on a common dislike of Jews and of the U.S. government. Much like the Mufti's alliance with the Nazis: enemy of my enemy, and so on. No further ideological connections were demonstrated. One might as well speak of IslamoAlbanianNationalism, based on al-Qaeda's loose financial and organizational ties with the KLA.
Posted under the rather misleading section title "Growing ties between Aryan Nation and Islamofascists" was the following:
Left out was the report that the FBI found no evidence that al-Qaeda wanted anything to do with Aryan Nations. Left out, but conspicuous by its absence, is the lack of any connection beyond the perceived common enemies of the two groups—one which, it should be said, al-Qaeda's inner leadership has given no sign of endorsing.
This is discussed above; I won't rehash it here.
And wasn't Martin Bormann repeatedly spotted in South America, and hey, didn't the U.S. government import some Nazis of its own? How very misleading.
A devotee of Adolf Hitler in his youth. Details are left out. Was he an unenthusiastic Hitler Youth, like the present Pope? Or was he a raving fanatical devotee? Does he still hold any Nazi beliefs? Have his Nazi beliefs, if he still holds them, had any influence on any Islamic organizations?
Perhaps he cannot be dismissed as a crackpot, but can he be dismissed as unsuccessful? The article reports that the FBI found no evidence of any such alliance in the United States. Did anyone in al-Qaeda listen to him? All these questions left unanswered.
— Charles P. (Mirv) 05:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Using a photo of people in Nazi uniforms at the head of a page about modern Muslims is not just misleading. It's POV pushing of the worst kind. It implies that modern "jihadists" are in some way connected with WWII fascists, which they are not. It implies that they self-identify as fascists, just as the WWII guys did, which they absolutely do not. "Fascist" is a playground insult, the kind of thing Chris Hitchens specialises in. It's a pity WP has dignified this nonsense with an article but truly sad that editors are working to spread the hatred. There is no such thing as "Islamofascism". Al Qaeda has no connection with fascist groups. They could not be less "fascist", so opposed to statism and state mechanisms are they. Grace Note 13:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You act as though relevant, objective facts were sufficient to determine such issues. :) BrandonYusufToropov 20:51, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, I like to keep up the pretence that we're making an encyclopaedia! I know it's silly but it keeps me going. Grace Note 22:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Porphria's latest edit summary, and accompanying deletions ("Saudi Princes are the majority shareholder of these corporations, Iranian Oil wealth is also significantly corporate, state controlled, and therefore fascistic") is so far from being remotely accurate that I couldn't let it pass. All state control is by definition fascistic? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:20, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Are we ever going to see sources for the stuff about "oil wealth" being exactly like "corporate power"? Or any of the stuff that's being pushed into this article in an attempt to substantiate an insult that has no more substance than "yo mama she fat"? Grace Note 01:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed this bit about Iran and Saudi Arabia: "the ideology of totalitarian theocracy allegedly espoused by these govenments" There's no need to give it such a convoluted spin. Everyone agrees (I believe) that both countries are theocracies. However, since fascism has never been particularly associated with religion and, if anything, fascists are known for being antagonistic to various religions, calling those countries "theocracies" hardly proves your point. I left in "totalitarian" because it is relevant to the definition of fascism. Of course, sooner or later we'll have to address that other "totalitarian theocracy" - the Vatican. :) -- Lee Hunter 01:58, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Supporters of the term contend that the fusion of oil wealth within governments that are arguably totalitarian is consistent with the definition of fascism."
Who? Who says that? I'd like to call them a fool to their faces. What definition of fascism? Which states are you arguing are "totalitarian"? Whoever does say this clearly doesn't understand how Iranian politics works. I suggest they are pointed in the direction of an article about it. Or Saudi politics. Absolute monarchy, maybe. Totalitarian state, no way. "Totalitarian" does not mean "some repression" or "some rights lacking". Those who argue that these states are "totalitarian" are simply throwing another epithet at them. So their "contention" is that their epithet is justified because they throw another epithet at the states in quesion.
If you must push this nonsense, please cite sources and make it someone else's nonsense. That's if you can find any. Rightwing bloggers who need tying down by 3pm don't count. Grace Note 02:57, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I still wonder about the list of supposed characteristics. Klonimus, who wrote it, has cited no specific sources, instead claiming that it is a synthesis of "many different articles in Commentary Magazine, American Jewish Congress Monthly, Blog postings, articles/books/lectures by Victor Davis Hanson, a large personal library of books on post 9/11 etc." However, without specific sources it's impossible to know whether each and every one of these was asserting that Wahhabism and Salafism are fascist. Perhaps this is why the list bears no resemblance to any definition of fascism. Perhaps it should be removed until the sources are specified. —
Charles
P.
(Mirv) 23:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Note that we are talking about what people who use the term Islamofascism mean, not what we think it does mean, should mean or should not mean.
"Propose the existence of an eternal violent conflict" means that the conflict exists right now, not that it is bound to happen in the future as Yusuf's edit implies. The Koran/Hadith propose that there is always a conflict between Muslims and infidels.
Klonimus 20:07, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You know what they say about the devil and scripture. I wasn't aware though that the Qur'an was a treatise on fascism. Quite the opposite, in fact. Shall we trot out all the verses on tolerance and consensus? Grace Note 23:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph just doesn't work for me. My notes are in square brackets "It should be noted that [the] above definitions [definitions? what definitions? they are nothing more than a bunch of random statements which are specific to a certain critical view of radical Islam. They don't "define" anything at all and certainly not fascism] are controversial [only controversial in the sense that one or two people on WP insist that they are somehow meaningful], and intended to explicate [?] what is commonly me[a]nt by those who use the terms "Islamofascist" and "Islamofascism". There is much controversy over if the above definition actually describes a type of fascism [arguments between a few wp editors doesn't constitute a controversy. Those bullets don't come within a million miles of any real world definition of fascism], per a generally accepted definition of fascism, or instead describes variants of political islam" -- Lee Hunter 20:34, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You cant make a 1:1 connection. It's silly to argue that you can, and I am not doing that. The question is what do people mean when they say islamofascism? If you look at instances where islamofascism has been used, That list contains the points which the speaker is trying to make. I really dont see why this is so controversial. Islamofascism is a term specific to a certain critical view of radical Islam. If you are going to talk about that term and the people who use it, you need to descibe the term as it is used. Regardless of if this usage offends you.
Certain editors insist on creating great controversy and inserting large amounts of qualifiing language into this article untill it becomes a world salad dressed with political correctness. I'd like to try and isolate all the controversy into a section on controversy, and keep the simple documentary parts free of qualifing language that makes the article less readable and destroy's any semblence of encyclopedic style.
Personally at this point I would be happy if the article merely said that
"Thinking outside the box" is entirely frowned on in Wikipedia. A theoretical enquiry into what "Islamofascism" might mean is totally out of place in an encyclopaedia, particularly one that expressly forbids original research. Grace Note 23:29, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Klonimus, sticking 'inuse' on an article simply to stop people reverting your edits is even less acceptable than reverting an article with the template in place; there was no sign at all that you were in fact engaged in an extensive edit. The present version, while flawed, is better than the one it replaces, both in terms of accuracy and neutrality and in terms of grammar. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:47, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It took you nearly twenty minutes to look for spelling and grammatical errors? And you had to do it in edit mode? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Those who have a strong point of view usually see attempts to produce neutrality as being biased. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:26, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thus it should be deleted. - Stancel 16:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
... by supplying specific citations of this term's use. The unattributed "some say"/"others say" stuff is a rather ineffective fig leaf placed over a WP debate. BrandonYusufToropov 08:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
If indeed there are to be quotes, they have to be selected in an NPOV fashion. And where's the grandmother of them all, Hitchen's coinage of the term? The Orwell one of course is a general condemnation of the use of the term "fascism"; I'd venture it's the earliest incarnation of a pre-usenet form of Godwin's Law. Regardless, I don't see much point in a series of quotes condemning the term; one should suffice. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see Jayjg's point here; Orwell is talking about the use of the word "fascism" in general — therefore he's talking about its use here. If Socrates has said "all men are mortal", he'd have been talking about me as well as his father; that's the way universal generalisations work. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:56, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
How about merging this into a new article called Fascist (epithet)? There's some bits in the Fascist article, the new (and equally odorous) Christofascism article etc. It seems more useful and interesting to address the question of how the word "fascism" is used to slur one's enemies than to have an article on each spindly variant (and thereby losing the very useful context of how this pattern has been repeated for the past 60 years or so). -- Lee Hunter 19:08, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Don't merge. This is pretty ridiculous. We voted, merge was one of the options, it was not that popular, now just leave it alone. ObsidianOrder 01:36, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Other fronts of Vfd's are still open. The term Islamofascism surely exist. Christofascism and Americofascism has been created on a wrong basis because they are used so rarely. However, Christian fascism and American Fascism do exist in parallel along with Islamofascism. Indeed there are tens of books discussing the issue, at least American fascism as I am not concerned about Christian Fascism for the time being:
The point here is that some argue that we don't have to merge the whole x-fascism articles on Fascism as epithet. Why not? This will explain the real reality. All terms are invented by the opponent sides. So how come one exist and others are excluded? It will be one of the big mistakes ever in WP to neglect this fact. This is an encyclopedia, not a podium! Imagine a reader aware of the existance of both terms searching WP and finding one but none of the rest of the team!!! So using the right terminology, articles should exist; I would prefer to see them merged (because they are all epithets), but if not they SHOULD all exist. Cheers and respect -- Svest 02:22, May 3, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up
There is no reason why they should all exist as articles, if some of them don't exist in reality. You can invent any term or phrase you wish, but some are real (and commonly used) and refer to real things, while others do not. This is a logical fallacy, or perhaps a [[WP::POINT]]. ObsidianOrder 02:30, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Then perhaps you would like to add your knowledge into the article of the "real things" that Islamofascism refers to? Yuber 02:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Just wondering, I guess I didn't catch it while it was happening, but the current version of the page is ridiculous, there's nothing in it but a few quotes, of which one has nothing to do with the term, and three of the other four talk about why there is no such thing. Why was everything else removed? I don't see any discussion leading up to it. I don't really like the old version of the page but it had a whole lot more substance, it could be improved instead of being (essentially) deleted. ObsidianOrder 21:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
FayssalF - What was there, you ask?
What you quoted above only deals with item 3, and would be a great addition to an article about it (as opposed to, say, a reason for deleting it). You can't just say "it was original research", you have to show why you think each individual piece to be deleted is not sourced and cannot be sourced - and some of it obviously cannot be original research, because it simply reports facts. Can you explain why you think you can delete 70% of an article that "survived a VfD"? ObsidianOrder 04:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
If you insist, I'll answer that:
I'll stand up for Firebug's compromise. The rest is POV nonsense. I'm for at an absolute minimum moving this page to Uses of the term "Islamofascism" and redirecting Islamofascism to that. I'd prefer a broader article about "fascist" as an epithet, so that we can discuss usage of "Jewish fascism" and "American fascism", which are equally misplaced epithets. All sourced, all correctly presented. Not the utter farrago of an article you are arguing for. No way is that what Wikipedia is here for. Grace Note 05:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I see that someone revised the opening to remove the "supporters of the term" and "opponents of the term" nonsense. Thanks, you saved me the trouble. Not only does that construction make the article seem juvenile, it does nothing but reference an internal WP debate which doesn't really belong in the article and it also misrepresents the various opinions about the article and the word. It's not so much that there are actual supporters and opponents of the term itself - it's more a question of whether the article should depict the word as a simple slur (approximately on the level of nigger) or whether the article should present Islamofascism as a recognized political or social movement. -- Lee Hunter 01:10, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
It's a catch-22 for the proponents of a POV article. They cannot source analysis of connections between Islamism and fascism because there are none (the page used Klonimus's own analysis, which is utterly unacceptable -- we do not include original research). There are none because it is simply used as an insult by the likes of Hitchens and other rightists. But they don't want a page that just says it is an insult. So they need to source an analysis of connections between Islamism and fascism.
I say we go from the page with just the quotes and that the people who want a broader article present their material here on talk first, with sources. I think I'd be very suspicious of the motives of editors who did not want to go through that process on a contentious page. Grace Note 06:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
fas·cism (Merriam-Webster) 1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
fas·cism (American Heritage Dictionary) 1.a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
I did a Google search of this term, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Islamofascism&btnG=Search, and I get mainly 64,000 pages. I know I have heard the term used on Rush Limbaugh. This website, http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j111401.html, claims Christopher Hitchens (who authored the book No One Left To Lie Too), coined the word. I do not know what to say about this term specially, but I had people tell me that adding a link to this article under "related links" is considered POV pushing. Zscout370 (talk) 23:54, 6 May 2005 (UTC)