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Psychology in the medieval Islamic world article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 18 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Huntt130.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
It strikes me that this might be better named as Islamic psychology - it's dealing with the parts of the field of psychology developed in the Islamic world, rather than the "psychology of Muslims" per se, and this title seems to vaguely imply the latter. Shimgray | talk | 20:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The recurring problem in this article, and the explicit reason for the OR tag, is the use of language which frames meaningful and important phenomena using terms that suggest alternate interpretations. This represents an attempt at original research because it misrepresents the contribution of "ancient Islamic mental philosophy" to contemporary Psychology, the language of which is used to describe the earlier "discoveries." Scholarly discussions of these issues, in independent peer-reviewed journals, treat them with much more nuance than is reflected here. This is not noted out of colonialist pique, but out of necessity in preserving the differences between medieval ideas and contemporary psychological research. Attempts to incorporate new influences into the disciplinary history must be made in the proper forum. (For an example of such an article, see here [1].) For more on this issue, see below. - JTBurman ( talk) 23:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
In response to the spate of recent edits of the history of psychology article, which incorporated anachronistic presentations of Islamic "psychology" into the general description of the discipline, Chris Green started a discussion at his blog. Having evolved over several weeks, this examines the clashing historiographic sensibilities evinced between expert and naive contributions to Wikipedia, as well as suggestions from both communities about what to do about it. Although further comments are of course welcome, the discussion itself may serve as a useful touchstone for future edits with historical implications. (In short, the argument is that historical movements should be examined in their own contexts, rather than in ours.) -- JTBurman ( talk) 03:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
JTBurman has asked me to chip in on this discussion. First, like Jagged 85's suggestion of retitling the page "Islamic psychological thought", which will help underscore the thrust of the article, which is to describe what Islamic scholars and physicians thought and practiced regarding the working of the mind and mental diseases.
I generally agree JTBurman and Mattisse about the danger of projecting too much of the framework of modern thinking into a decidedly different cultural context that has only limited continuity the history of (the discipline of) modern psychology. But the main point of contention here seems to be whether there is a holistic problem with the way this article is put together, beyond just terminology. I don't see that being the case. Or rather, what problems there are mostly seem to reflect the state of scholarship; at least judging by the venues of publication, the sources being used seem legit (by academic standards as well as Wikipedia's).
If how to talk about Islamic psychology/psychological thought a problem the academic community hasn't solved, then it's probably beyond the scope of Wikipedia to correct that. JTBurman suggests an alternative translation for al-‘ilaj al-nafs, and points to the meaning of nafs as a central issue. Perhaps adding a section on terminology immediately after the lead could help clarify things, and explicitly lay out usage conventions for the rest of the article, noting the caveats with respect to seemingly similar modern concepts.-- ragesoss ( talk) 17:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
--
I am lookin' for crew to translate this article in French, thank you to contact me. Je cherche des gens motivés pour traduire cet article en Francais, merci de me contacter. Allahnis ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC).
The section below has been cut as it conflicts with the name of the article but perhaps deserves a new home (or a change of article title?)
In 1991, Saudi Arabian medical researchers discovered "neuro-Behcet's disease", [2] a neurological involvement in Behcet's disease, considered one of the most devastating manifestations of the disease as described by an Egyptian researcher Sahar Saleem. [3] In 1989, Saudi neurologists also discovered "neurobrucellosis", a neurological involvement in brucellosis. [2]
Dr. Muhammad B. Yunus is a Muslim physician and neuroscientist who practices internal medicine and rheumatology in the United States. [4] In 1981, he published the "first controlled study of the clinical characteristics" of the fibromyalgia syndrome, for which he is regarded as "the father of our modern view of fibromyalgia." [5] His work was the "first controlled clinical study" of fibromyalgia "with validation of known symptoms and tender points" and he also proposed "the first data-based criteria." In 1984, he proposed the important concept that the fibromyalgia syndrome and other similar conditions are interconnected. He showed serotonergic and norepinephric drugs to be effective in 1986, published criteria for fibromyalgia in 1990, and developed neurohormonal mechanisms with central sensitization in the 1990s. [6]
He also made important advances in the understanding of the chronic fatigue syndromes in general, the biopsychosocial model, medical sociology, neurology, psychosocial development, and neurochemical pathology. [7] His "biopsychosocial perspective" of fibromyalgia and other chronic fatigue syndromes is the "only way to synthesize the disparate contributions of such variables as genes and adverse childhood experiences, life stress and distress, posttraumatic stress disorder, mood disorders, self-efficacy for pain control, catastrophizing, coping style, and social support into the evolving picture of central nervous system dysfunction vis-a-vis chronic pain and fatigue." [5]
Redheylin ( talk) 15:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
For background information, please see RFC/U and Cleanup. With 225 edits, User:Jagged 85 is the main contributor to this article by far (the 2nd ranked user has 9 edits to his name).
Cause of concern, no. 7 The section says:
This positive understanding of mental health consequently led to...an early scientific understanding of neuroscience and psychology by medieval Muslim physicians and psychological thinkers, who discovered that mental disorders are caused by dysfunctions in the brain.
The source cited was:
Youssef, Hanafy A.; Youssef, Fatma A.; Dening, T. R. (1996), "Evidence for the existence of schizophrenia in medieval Islamic society", History of Psychiatry 7 (25): 55–62 (59)
However, Youssef et al. argue that Muslim physicians judged schizophrenia more in terms of social deviation rather than biological dysfunction:
Medieval Islamic physicians did not have a clear biological model of mental illness, although they suspected dysfunction of the brain. For them, the insane had lost touch with reality and had lost their reason. We propose a rather controversial definition for schizophrenia in medieval Islamic society; namely that it is a deviation from the usual cultural and social norms.
Neither here nor elsewhere in the entire article it is claimed that these doctors were driven by an "early scientific understanding of neuroscience and psychology"; in fact the terms "scientific", "neuroscience" and "psychology" don't even appear once in the article.
al-Farabi (Alpharabius) (872-951) wrote the On the Cause of Dreams, which appeared as chapter 24 of his Book of Opinions of the people of the Ideal City, was a treatise on dreams, in which he was the first to distinguish between dream interpretation and the nature and causes of dreams.[13]
The source cited was:
Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (363)
But the claim of being the first to make this distinctions is freely invented; in fact Haque only states:
He also wrote On the Cause of Dreams—Chapter 24 in the Book of Opinions of the people of the Ideal City and made distinction between dream interpretation and the nature and causes of dreams.
He also first discussed various mental disorders, including sleeping sickness, memory loss, hypochondriasis, coma, hot and cold meningitis, vertigo epilepsy, love sickness, and hemiplegia
The source cited was:
Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (363)
However, the cited source does not claim that al-Majusi was the first to describe these medical conditions:
Majusi described the anatomy, physiology and diseases of the brain including sleeping sickness, loss of memory, hypochondria, coma, hot and cold meningitis, vertigo epilepsy, love sickness, and hemiplegia.
He was also the earliest to note that intellectual dysfunctions were largely due to deficits in the brain's middle ventricle, and that the frontal lobe of the brain mediated common sense and reasoning.
The source cited was:
Millon, Theodore (2004), Masters of the Mind: Exploring the Story of Mental Illness from Ancient Times to the New Millennium, John Wiley & Sons, p. 38, ISBN 9780471469858
However, the cited source does not claim that Avicenna was the first to investigate into these intellectual dysfunctions :
To his credit as a sophisticated scholar of the brain, Avicenna speculated that intellectual dysfunctions were in large part a result of deficits in the brain's middle ventricle, and he asserted that the frontal areas of the brain medietaed common sense and reasoning.
He dedicated three chapters of The Canon of Medicine (1020s) to neuropsychiatric disorders...and [he] discovered that it is a disorder of reason with its origin in the middle part of the brain
The source cited was:
Youssef, Hanafy A.; Youssef, Fatma A.; Dening, T. R. (1996), "Evidence for the existence of schizophrenia in medieval Islamic society", History of Psychiatry 7 (25): 55–62, (56f.)
This sounds as if it is today scientifically proven that neuropsychiatric disorders are located in the middle part of the brain and that Avicenna anticipated modern science here. However, no such conclusion can be derived from Youssef's choice of words:
He considered all madness as disorders of reason, with their origin in the middle part of the brain.
Al-Farabi's Social Psychology and Model City were the earliest treatises to deal with social psychology.
The source cited was:
Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (363)
However, Haque simply says:
He wrote his treatise on Social Psychology, most renowned of which is his Model City.
I noticed that, beyond the usual issues with OR, SYN and OR, large chunks of text were simply copied and pasted with little or no change to the exact wording. This is particulary true for Psychology in medieval Islam#Other philosophical theories of the mind and Psychology in medieval Islam#Clinical and medical approach, but occurs throughout the article. For example, one passage reads:
One such example involved a prince of Persia who had melancholia and suffered from the delusion that he was a cow. He would low like a cow, crying "Kill me so that a good stew may be made of my flesh," and would not eat anything. Avicenna was persuaded to undertake the case, and sent a message to the patient, asking him to be happy, as the butcher was coming to slaughter him, and the sick man rejoiced. When Avicenna approached the prince with a knife in his hand, he asked, "Where is the cow so I may kill it." The patient then lowed like a cow to indicate where he was. By order of Avicenna in his role as the butcher, the patient was also laid on the ground for slaughter. When Avicenna approached the patient, pretending to slaughter him, he said, "The cow is too lean and not ready to be killed. He must be fed properly and I will kill it when it becomes healthy and fat." The patient was then offered food, which he ate eagerly and gradually "gained strength, got rid of his delusion, and was completely cured."
Now compare with the cited source (Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (2004), p. 376, footnote 15):
A prince from Persia had melancholia and suffered from the delusion that he is a cow…he would low like a cow…crying ‘‘Kill me so that a good stew may be made of my flesh,’ finally, …he would eat nothing. Ibn Sina was persuaded to the case…first of all he sent the message to the patient asking him to be happy as the butcher was coming to slaughter him… and the sick man rejoiced. When Ibn Sina approached the prince with a knife in his hand he asked where is the cow so I may kill it. The patient lowed like a cow to indicate where he was. By order of the butcher, the patient was also laid on the ground for slaughter. When Ibn Sina approached the patient pretending to slaughter him, he said, the cow is too lean and not ready to be killed. He must be fed properly and I will kill it when it becomes healthy and fat. The patient was offered food which he ate eagerly and gradually gained strength, got rid of his delusion, and was completely cured.
These issues, deficiencies and misrepresentation fully correspond to the causes of concern pointed out by many users one year ago. Since the edit history shows contents to come overwhelmingly from Jagged85's pen, with contributions of other users being minimal, collateral damage resulting from stubbing will be minimal. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 00:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm with GPM above: this article is retrofitting the term "psychology" to a situation where it didn't really exist. It should probably just go William M. Connolley ( talk) 15:03, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Support - Article (in current or earlier forms) should not have existed and is a great example of presentism. Anachronistic use of the term "psychology" applied to earlier philosophical musings on the nature of mind/soul/spirit/self. Famousdog ( talk) 13:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Oppose - as has been stated above, the term is used in current literature. If it is used in current literature, it is notable. As per Al-Andalusi directly above in the section AFD: The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has an article with the following title: "Arabic and Islamic Psychology and Philosophy of Mind". - Aquib ( talk) 21:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
This foolishness has drawn attention even from outside wikipedia:
Some authors have argued that the medieval scientist [[Alhazen]] should be considered the founder of [[psychophysics]], and by definition, of [[experimental psychology]].<ref name=Khaleefa>{{cite journal |author=Omar Khaleefa |year=1999 |title=Who Is the Founder of Psychophysics and Experimental Psychology? |journal=American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences |volume=16 |issue=2}}</ref> However, there is no evidence that he used quantitative psychophysical techniques and many of his psychological speculations had been remarked upon previously by other [[polymaths]] of the ancient world such as [[Aristotle]], [[Ptolemy]], [[Lucretius]] and [[Euclid]].<ref name=AaenStockdale>{{cite journal |author=Aaen-Stockdale, C.R. |year=2008 |title=Ibn al-Haytham and psychophysics |journal=Perception |volume=37 |issue=4 |pages=636–638 |doi=10.1068/p5940 |pmid=18546671}}</ref> To apply the term "psychology" to the works of [[Alhazen]] is [[presentist]], [[anachronism|anachronistic]] and it has been argued that to do so is [[boosterism|boosterist]].<ref name=AaenStockdale/>
J8079s ( talk) 04:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Wedding and Haque document attempts to "Islamicate" psychology This is not a bad thing It could anchor a content fork see WP:Content fork Wedding, Danny (2004-07-29). The Handbook of International Psychology [5] is a great place to start. Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists" is a fine source in this context however the paper should not be taken as a source of historical fact to do so is to 1) miss the point of his work and 2) create a WP:POVFORK. I am concerned that users are quoting the paper out of context elsewhere on wikipedia. J8079s ( talk) 04:49, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
How is this thing even here? It offers NO information at all. There is more info in the links and references than in the so-called article itself. Why has this been allowed as an article when larger and more complete works have been denied. --- Wiki is all crooked and warped, made so by inconsistent censors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.98.65.194 ( talk) 19:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
The term "psychology" as in the title may be used improperly here based on previous versions of the page. It is not practical to represent philosophy of mind, neurobiology, and psychology from the medieval period on one page. Perhaps in the future, many different pages will be needed. Bruce526 ( talk) 06:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Caso queira traduzir se disponha. Att 2804:14C:5BB3:A351:4DD:E458:5FEF:7802 ( talk) 21:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The lead for this article is well balanced. The reader is given the perfect amount of information in the first sentence, and in the paragraph as a whole. It is concise, yet detailed. The content is well thought out and has a neutral tone overall. There was not any information that could be considered irrelevant regarding the topic. The Islamic people groups outlined in this article are underrepresented in the Western world, even more so in science. This article provides the reader with a through knowledge of what these scientists knew. I previously stated that the overall tone is neutral, and that stands for the article as a whole. The cited links that I clicked on did work. The sources are trustworthy and reputable. There is also a good mix of first hand accounts from these medieval scientists as well as more recent articles analyzing their work. The talk page for this article was extremely interesting to me. This WikiProject lasted from August 2021 to December 2021. The comments left on the talk page were constructive and well thought out. They addressed verbiage issues (what to call certain people/things), I think this helped the article have a neutral tone. My overall impression was impressed. This is a topic that I am sure was not particularly easy to find sources of and these people did a great job! The article is well developed, but there is room for more. There could be a section on what a psychiatric ward looked like and operated in the Medieval world. Callalily4 ( talk) 01:04, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Psychology in the medieval Islamic world article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | A fact from Psychology in the medieval Islamic world appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 20 January 2008, and was viewed approximately 1,231 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 18 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Huntt130.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
It strikes me that this might be better named as Islamic psychology - it's dealing with the parts of the field of psychology developed in the Islamic world, rather than the "psychology of Muslims" per se, and this title seems to vaguely imply the latter. Shimgray | talk | 20:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The recurring problem in this article, and the explicit reason for the OR tag, is the use of language which frames meaningful and important phenomena using terms that suggest alternate interpretations. This represents an attempt at original research because it misrepresents the contribution of "ancient Islamic mental philosophy" to contemporary Psychology, the language of which is used to describe the earlier "discoveries." Scholarly discussions of these issues, in independent peer-reviewed journals, treat them with much more nuance than is reflected here. This is not noted out of colonialist pique, but out of necessity in preserving the differences between medieval ideas and contemporary psychological research. Attempts to incorporate new influences into the disciplinary history must be made in the proper forum. (For an example of such an article, see here [1].) For more on this issue, see below. - JTBurman ( talk) 23:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
In response to the spate of recent edits of the history of psychology article, which incorporated anachronistic presentations of Islamic "psychology" into the general description of the discipline, Chris Green started a discussion at his blog. Having evolved over several weeks, this examines the clashing historiographic sensibilities evinced between expert and naive contributions to Wikipedia, as well as suggestions from both communities about what to do about it. Although further comments are of course welcome, the discussion itself may serve as a useful touchstone for future edits with historical implications. (In short, the argument is that historical movements should be examined in their own contexts, rather than in ours.) -- JTBurman ( talk) 03:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
JTBurman has asked me to chip in on this discussion. First, like Jagged 85's suggestion of retitling the page "Islamic psychological thought", which will help underscore the thrust of the article, which is to describe what Islamic scholars and physicians thought and practiced regarding the working of the mind and mental diseases.
I generally agree JTBurman and Mattisse about the danger of projecting too much of the framework of modern thinking into a decidedly different cultural context that has only limited continuity the history of (the discipline of) modern psychology. But the main point of contention here seems to be whether there is a holistic problem with the way this article is put together, beyond just terminology. I don't see that being the case. Or rather, what problems there are mostly seem to reflect the state of scholarship; at least judging by the venues of publication, the sources being used seem legit (by academic standards as well as Wikipedia's).
If how to talk about Islamic psychology/psychological thought a problem the academic community hasn't solved, then it's probably beyond the scope of Wikipedia to correct that. JTBurman suggests an alternative translation for al-‘ilaj al-nafs, and points to the meaning of nafs as a central issue. Perhaps adding a section on terminology immediately after the lead could help clarify things, and explicitly lay out usage conventions for the rest of the article, noting the caveats with respect to seemingly similar modern concepts.-- ragesoss ( talk) 17:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
--
I am lookin' for crew to translate this article in French, thank you to contact me. Je cherche des gens motivés pour traduire cet article en Francais, merci de me contacter. Allahnis ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC).
The section below has been cut as it conflicts with the name of the article but perhaps deserves a new home (or a change of article title?)
In 1991, Saudi Arabian medical researchers discovered "neuro-Behcet's disease", [2] a neurological involvement in Behcet's disease, considered one of the most devastating manifestations of the disease as described by an Egyptian researcher Sahar Saleem. [3] In 1989, Saudi neurologists also discovered "neurobrucellosis", a neurological involvement in brucellosis. [2]
Dr. Muhammad B. Yunus is a Muslim physician and neuroscientist who practices internal medicine and rheumatology in the United States. [4] In 1981, he published the "first controlled study of the clinical characteristics" of the fibromyalgia syndrome, for which he is regarded as "the father of our modern view of fibromyalgia." [5] His work was the "first controlled clinical study" of fibromyalgia "with validation of known symptoms and tender points" and he also proposed "the first data-based criteria." In 1984, he proposed the important concept that the fibromyalgia syndrome and other similar conditions are interconnected. He showed serotonergic and norepinephric drugs to be effective in 1986, published criteria for fibromyalgia in 1990, and developed neurohormonal mechanisms with central sensitization in the 1990s. [6]
He also made important advances in the understanding of the chronic fatigue syndromes in general, the biopsychosocial model, medical sociology, neurology, psychosocial development, and neurochemical pathology. [7] His "biopsychosocial perspective" of fibromyalgia and other chronic fatigue syndromes is the "only way to synthesize the disparate contributions of such variables as genes and adverse childhood experiences, life stress and distress, posttraumatic stress disorder, mood disorders, self-efficacy for pain control, catastrophizing, coping style, and social support into the evolving picture of central nervous system dysfunction vis-a-vis chronic pain and fatigue." [5]
Redheylin ( talk) 15:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
For background information, please see RFC/U and Cleanup. With 225 edits, User:Jagged 85 is the main contributor to this article by far (the 2nd ranked user has 9 edits to his name).
Cause of concern, no. 7 The section says:
This positive understanding of mental health consequently led to...an early scientific understanding of neuroscience and psychology by medieval Muslim physicians and psychological thinkers, who discovered that mental disorders are caused by dysfunctions in the brain.
The source cited was:
Youssef, Hanafy A.; Youssef, Fatma A.; Dening, T. R. (1996), "Evidence for the existence of schizophrenia in medieval Islamic society", History of Psychiatry 7 (25): 55–62 (59)
However, Youssef et al. argue that Muslim physicians judged schizophrenia more in terms of social deviation rather than biological dysfunction:
Medieval Islamic physicians did not have a clear biological model of mental illness, although they suspected dysfunction of the brain. For them, the insane had lost touch with reality and had lost their reason. We propose a rather controversial definition for schizophrenia in medieval Islamic society; namely that it is a deviation from the usual cultural and social norms.
Neither here nor elsewhere in the entire article it is claimed that these doctors were driven by an "early scientific understanding of neuroscience and psychology"; in fact the terms "scientific", "neuroscience" and "psychology" don't even appear once in the article.
al-Farabi (Alpharabius) (872-951) wrote the On the Cause of Dreams, which appeared as chapter 24 of his Book of Opinions of the people of the Ideal City, was a treatise on dreams, in which he was the first to distinguish between dream interpretation and the nature and causes of dreams.[13]
The source cited was:
Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (363)
But the claim of being the first to make this distinctions is freely invented; in fact Haque only states:
He also wrote On the Cause of Dreams—Chapter 24 in the Book of Opinions of the people of the Ideal City and made distinction between dream interpretation and the nature and causes of dreams.
He also first discussed various mental disorders, including sleeping sickness, memory loss, hypochondriasis, coma, hot and cold meningitis, vertigo epilepsy, love sickness, and hemiplegia
The source cited was:
Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (363)
However, the cited source does not claim that al-Majusi was the first to describe these medical conditions:
Majusi described the anatomy, physiology and diseases of the brain including sleeping sickness, loss of memory, hypochondria, coma, hot and cold meningitis, vertigo epilepsy, love sickness, and hemiplegia.
He was also the earliest to note that intellectual dysfunctions were largely due to deficits in the brain's middle ventricle, and that the frontal lobe of the brain mediated common sense and reasoning.
The source cited was:
Millon, Theodore (2004), Masters of the Mind: Exploring the Story of Mental Illness from Ancient Times to the New Millennium, John Wiley & Sons, p. 38, ISBN 9780471469858
However, the cited source does not claim that Avicenna was the first to investigate into these intellectual dysfunctions :
To his credit as a sophisticated scholar of the brain, Avicenna speculated that intellectual dysfunctions were in large part a result of deficits in the brain's middle ventricle, and he asserted that the frontal areas of the brain medietaed common sense and reasoning.
He dedicated three chapters of The Canon of Medicine (1020s) to neuropsychiatric disorders...and [he] discovered that it is a disorder of reason with its origin in the middle part of the brain
The source cited was:
Youssef, Hanafy A.; Youssef, Fatma A.; Dening, T. R. (1996), "Evidence for the existence of schizophrenia in medieval Islamic society", History of Psychiatry 7 (25): 55–62, (56f.)
This sounds as if it is today scientifically proven that neuropsychiatric disorders are located in the middle part of the brain and that Avicenna anticipated modern science here. However, no such conclusion can be derived from Youssef's choice of words:
He considered all madness as disorders of reason, with their origin in the middle part of the brain.
Al-Farabi's Social Psychology and Model City were the earliest treatises to deal with social psychology.
The source cited was:
Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (363)
However, Haque simply says:
He wrote his treatise on Social Psychology, most renowned of which is his Model City.
I noticed that, beyond the usual issues with OR, SYN and OR, large chunks of text were simply copied and pasted with little or no change to the exact wording. This is particulary true for Psychology in medieval Islam#Other philosophical theories of the mind and Psychology in medieval Islam#Clinical and medical approach, but occurs throughout the article. For example, one passage reads:
One such example involved a prince of Persia who had melancholia and suffered from the delusion that he was a cow. He would low like a cow, crying "Kill me so that a good stew may be made of my flesh," and would not eat anything. Avicenna was persuaded to undertake the case, and sent a message to the patient, asking him to be happy, as the butcher was coming to slaughter him, and the sick man rejoiced. When Avicenna approached the prince with a knife in his hand, he asked, "Where is the cow so I may kill it." The patient then lowed like a cow to indicate where he was. By order of Avicenna in his role as the butcher, the patient was also laid on the ground for slaughter. When Avicenna approached the patient, pretending to slaughter him, he said, "The cow is too lean and not ready to be killed. He must be fed properly and I will kill it when it becomes healthy and fat." The patient was then offered food, which he ate eagerly and gradually "gained strength, got rid of his delusion, and was completely cured."
Now compare with the cited source (Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists", Journal of Religion and Health 43 (4): 357–377 (2004), p. 376, footnote 15):
A prince from Persia had melancholia and suffered from the delusion that he is a cow…he would low like a cow…crying ‘‘Kill me so that a good stew may be made of my flesh,’ finally, …he would eat nothing. Ibn Sina was persuaded to the case…first of all he sent the message to the patient asking him to be happy as the butcher was coming to slaughter him… and the sick man rejoiced. When Ibn Sina approached the prince with a knife in his hand he asked where is the cow so I may kill it. The patient lowed like a cow to indicate where he was. By order of the butcher, the patient was also laid on the ground for slaughter. When Ibn Sina approached the patient pretending to slaughter him, he said, the cow is too lean and not ready to be killed. He must be fed properly and I will kill it when it becomes healthy and fat. The patient was offered food which he ate eagerly and gradually gained strength, got rid of his delusion, and was completely cured.
These issues, deficiencies and misrepresentation fully correspond to the causes of concern pointed out by many users one year ago. Since the edit history shows contents to come overwhelmingly from Jagged85's pen, with contributions of other users being minimal, collateral damage resulting from stubbing will be minimal. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 00:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm with GPM above: this article is retrofitting the term "psychology" to a situation where it didn't really exist. It should probably just go William M. Connolley ( talk) 15:03, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Support - Article (in current or earlier forms) should not have existed and is a great example of presentism. Anachronistic use of the term "psychology" applied to earlier philosophical musings on the nature of mind/soul/spirit/self. Famousdog ( talk) 13:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Oppose - as has been stated above, the term is used in current literature. If it is used in current literature, it is notable. As per Al-Andalusi directly above in the section AFD: The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has an article with the following title: "Arabic and Islamic Psychology and Philosophy of Mind". - Aquib ( talk) 21:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
This foolishness has drawn attention even from outside wikipedia:
Some authors have argued that the medieval scientist [[Alhazen]] should be considered the founder of [[psychophysics]], and by definition, of [[experimental psychology]].<ref name=Khaleefa>{{cite journal |author=Omar Khaleefa |year=1999 |title=Who Is the Founder of Psychophysics and Experimental Psychology? |journal=American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences |volume=16 |issue=2}}</ref> However, there is no evidence that he used quantitative psychophysical techniques and many of his psychological speculations had been remarked upon previously by other [[polymaths]] of the ancient world such as [[Aristotle]], [[Ptolemy]], [[Lucretius]] and [[Euclid]].<ref name=AaenStockdale>{{cite journal |author=Aaen-Stockdale, C.R. |year=2008 |title=Ibn al-Haytham and psychophysics |journal=Perception |volume=37 |issue=4 |pages=636–638 |doi=10.1068/p5940 |pmid=18546671}}</ref> To apply the term "psychology" to the works of [[Alhazen]] is [[presentist]], [[anachronism|anachronistic]] and it has been argued that to do so is [[boosterism|boosterist]].<ref name=AaenStockdale/>
J8079s ( talk) 04:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Wedding and Haque document attempts to "Islamicate" psychology This is not a bad thing It could anchor a content fork see WP:Content fork Wedding, Danny (2004-07-29). The Handbook of International Psychology [5] is a great place to start. Haque, Amber (2004), "Psychology from Islamic Perspective: Contributions of Early Muslim Scholars and Challenges to Contemporary Muslim Psychologists" is a fine source in this context however the paper should not be taken as a source of historical fact to do so is to 1) miss the point of his work and 2) create a WP:POVFORK. I am concerned that users are quoting the paper out of context elsewhere on wikipedia. J8079s ( talk) 04:49, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
How is this thing even here? It offers NO information at all. There is more info in the links and references than in the so-called article itself. Why has this been allowed as an article when larger and more complete works have been denied. --- Wiki is all crooked and warped, made so by inconsistent censors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.98.65.194 ( talk) 19:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
The term "psychology" as in the title may be used improperly here based on previous versions of the page. It is not practical to represent philosophy of mind, neurobiology, and psychology from the medieval period on one page. Perhaps in the future, many different pages will be needed. Bruce526 ( talk) 06:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Caso queira traduzir se disponha. Att 2804:14C:5BB3:A351:4DD:E458:5FEF:7802 ( talk) 21:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The lead for this article is well balanced. The reader is given the perfect amount of information in the first sentence, and in the paragraph as a whole. It is concise, yet detailed. The content is well thought out and has a neutral tone overall. There was not any information that could be considered irrelevant regarding the topic. The Islamic people groups outlined in this article are underrepresented in the Western world, even more so in science. This article provides the reader with a through knowledge of what these scientists knew. I previously stated that the overall tone is neutral, and that stands for the article as a whole. The cited links that I clicked on did work. The sources are trustworthy and reputable. There is also a good mix of first hand accounts from these medieval scientists as well as more recent articles analyzing their work. The talk page for this article was extremely interesting to me. This WikiProject lasted from August 2021 to December 2021. The comments left on the talk page were constructive and well thought out. They addressed verbiage issues (what to call certain people/things), I think this helped the article have a neutral tone. My overall impression was impressed. This is a topic that I am sure was not particularly easy to find sources of and these people did a great job! The article is well developed, but there is room for more. There could be a section on what a psychiatric ward looked like and operated in the Medieval world. Callalily4 ( talk) 01:04, 22 January 2024 (UTC)