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"Islamic considerations blogspot" is not a notable source. It's got to go. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
The writing in this article is not good. In some cases it is not clear what the author is getting at. In some cases modernist (re)interpretation can find support in the text, such as the requirement of four witnesses to adultery, which may have the effect of voiding the hadd in practice, or the permission of four wives conditioned on the ability of the husband to treat them fairly, which is argued as denied by another passage. [1] -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 00:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok I arrived at this article with 2 main goals: 1. To understand WHAT Islamic Modernism is. 2. To find out a little about it in terms of what are the main ideas that it supports. Two questions, that's it: What is it? and What doeas it say? I came to this article and I failed to get an answer for any of those questions. Thus, it's a poorly written article that fails to provide any encyclopedic knowledge to anyone who's NOT ALREADY FAMILIAR with the subject. Now, that we've come to this issue: if I WERE already familiar with the subject, I doubt I'd have checked the Wikipedia page on it. The main reason I had for checking this page out was because I knew NOTHING about Islamic Modernism. Unfortunately I continue to know nothing about it. Bad article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 18:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Deleted additions by User:Ejaz92. Islamic Modernism is NOT the same as Salafism. What is "Salafism Modernism"? Here is a quote from a source given:
... Salafi modernism, represented by the Muslim Brotherhood and allied groups such as Pakistan's Jamaat-i Islam ... http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articles/cornellpracticalsufism.html
MB and JI are NOT Islamic Modernist. They are Islamic Revivalist. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 00:20, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Its clear.What could not u understand? Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Ejaz made a series of edits Jan 3 & 5 2015 that are, not following Wikipedia format (lede is too long) and not totally accurate (e.g. " has also been called Salafi Movement by some" but the sources given ( http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2072 and http://www.jamestown.org/programs/tm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=528& http://onislam.net/english/shariah/hadith/hadith-studies/441636.html don't exactly say that )
I think now you understood the sources given what exactly say? Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC) [Pasted from Ejaz talk page]
Ok you can change but what is the restriction in using salafi movement instead of salafism? You may change but use salafi movement.As salafism is not a particular movement rather its a trend or it is a mixture of whabism,salafism and many other movement.But salafi movement was a movement which was inspired by the figures like md.abduh. But in case,if you say it inspired salafi movement it indirectly means it inspired salafism. Ejaz92 ( talk) 04:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
After all you accepted my request in your last edit. Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Ejaz why have you deleted the History of Islamic Modernism section?
Why have you deleted sourced material? (It was the first of several Islamic movements – including secularism, Islamism and Salafism – that emerged in the middle of the 19th century in reaction to the rapid changes of the time, especially the perceived onslaught of Western Civilization and colonialism on the Muslim world. [1])
Why have you changed "is" to "was" in Islamic Modernism is a movement ..."? Are you saying there are no more Islamic modernists? -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 20:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
[pasted from BoogaLouie talk page]
What does it mean " (The connection between the "Salafi Movement" of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and modernism is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism. "?
Do you mean to say " The connection between the "Salafi Movement" of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and "Salafism" is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism.?
Did you write Modernism in place of Salafism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejaz92 ( talk • contribs) 13:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
My friend, Ref.4,5&6 is even named as "salafi movement" and shows Md abduh as the founder of the movement. That means the "islamic modernism" and " salafi movement " are same.Founders called it "salafi movement" (even ref:4,5,&6) while other gave it the name "islamic modernism" Ejaz92 ( talk) 06:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Ejaz please do not put this in! You do not have sources saying anyone calls Islamic Modernism the Salafi Movement. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 02:53, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
[pasted from BoogaLouie talk page]
[more pasting]
I accept your solution.Its the same what I opine.
Ejaz92 ( talk) 06:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Islamic modernism, when duscussed in this article, meant a movement led by activists and islamic scholars like Aghani, Abduh and Rida.This movement was/is monolithic in nature.
As " Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani , Abduh, and their later
disciples such as Muhammad Rashid Rida
(d.1354/1935) and, to a lesser extent,
Mohammed al-Ghazali (d. 1410/1989)
espoused some of the key Wahhabi ideals,
particularly the endeavor to “return” to the
Islamic understanding of the first Muslim
generations (as-salaf) by reopening the doors
of juristic deduction ( ijtihad) that they saw as
closed." (from the article).
This trend is inspired by wahhabi movement in some aspect.
That means it has nothing to do with secularists modernists, Naturists etc.
So when naming the islamic modernists we shoud restrict it to the people who espouse(d) the islamic modernism in the same manner as the founder did.
Modernist like Syyed ahmed khan, a supporter of british colony in India(Contrary of abduh and rida), secularists like Farag Fawda, Mahmud Tarzi and many other had a dufferent trend of modernism. They are modernist in a broader sense.They subscribe to the trend called as " islamic midernity" or "islam and modernity"So their names should be placed in the article Islam and modernity not here.
Ejaz92 ( talk) 06:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
" Its most prominent intellectual founder, Muhammad Abduh (d. 1323/1905),..."
There's an uncertainty of 1128 years in the date of his death? Seriously? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 ( talk) 19:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
I noticed that the page describes Rashid Rida as having modernistic leanings in the form of Salafism or Islamism, despite the fact that he took a somewhat different path from his mentor Muhammad Abduh's Mu'tazilite or rationalist beliefs. I wanted to open a discussion about this characterization to add more details in the article contributing to this perception.
While Rashid Rida is often associated with the Salafi movement, which is generally considered conservative, there are aspects of his work and thinking that seem to exhibit modernistic tendencies. For example, he was a proponent of Islamic reform, advocating for a reinterpretation of Islamic texts in light of modern challenges. It's essential to recognize that he may have been influenced by various modernistic ideas circulating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Additionally, Rida's interactions with Western thought and his interest in issues such as constitutionalism and governance reform could have contributed to the perception of modernistic leanings. I think there is a lack of description and sources to support this claim in the article and I can potentially contribute to the section with sources that discuss the issue. The following source is a good place to look into and start the conversation from: Dallal, A. (2000). APPROPRIATING THE PAST: TWENTIETH-CENTURY RECONSTRUCTION OF PRE-MODERN ISLAMIC THOUGHT. Islamic Law and Society, 7(3), 325-358. Rizwan.ul.isl ( talk) 12:30, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 August 2023 and 5 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rizwan.ul.isl ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Rizwan.ul.isl ( talk) 11:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of an educational assignment supported by WikiProject United States Public Policy and the Wikipedia Ambassador Program. |
"Islamic considerations blogspot" is not a notable source. It's got to go. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
The writing in this article is not good. In some cases it is not clear what the author is getting at. In some cases modernist (re)interpretation can find support in the text, such as the requirement of four witnesses to adultery, which may have the effect of voiding the hadd in practice, or the permission of four wives conditioned on the ability of the husband to treat them fairly, which is argued as denied by another passage. [1] -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 00:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok I arrived at this article with 2 main goals: 1. To understand WHAT Islamic Modernism is. 2. To find out a little about it in terms of what are the main ideas that it supports. Two questions, that's it: What is it? and What doeas it say? I came to this article and I failed to get an answer for any of those questions. Thus, it's a poorly written article that fails to provide any encyclopedic knowledge to anyone who's NOT ALREADY FAMILIAR with the subject. Now, that we've come to this issue: if I WERE already familiar with the subject, I doubt I'd have checked the Wikipedia page on it. The main reason I had for checking this page out was because I knew NOTHING about Islamic Modernism. Unfortunately I continue to know nothing about it. Bad article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 18:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Deleted additions by User:Ejaz92. Islamic Modernism is NOT the same as Salafism. What is "Salafism Modernism"? Here is a quote from a source given:
... Salafi modernism, represented by the Muslim Brotherhood and allied groups such as Pakistan's Jamaat-i Islam ... http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articles/cornellpracticalsufism.html
MB and JI are NOT Islamic Modernist. They are Islamic Revivalist. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 00:20, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Its clear.What could not u understand? Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Ejaz made a series of edits Jan 3 & 5 2015 that are, not following Wikipedia format (lede is too long) and not totally accurate (e.g. " has also been called Salafi Movement by some" but the sources given ( http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2072 and http://www.jamestown.org/programs/tm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=528& http://onislam.net/english/shariah/hadith/hadith-studies/441636.html don't exactly say that )
I think now you understood the sources given what exactly say? Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC) [Pasted from Ejaz talk page]
Ok you can change but what is the restriction in using salafi movement instead of salafism? You may change but use salafi movement.As salafism is not a particular movement rather its a trend or it is a mixture of whabism,salafism and many other movement.But salafi movement was a movement which was inspired by the figures like md.abduh. But in case,if you say it inspired salafi movement it indirectly means it inspired salafism. Ejaz92 ( talk) 04:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
After all you accepted my request in your last edit. Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Ejaz why have you deleted the History of Islamic Modernism section?
Why have you deleted sourced material? (It was the first of several Islamic movements – including secularism, Islamism and Salafism – that emerged in the middle of the 19th century in reaction to the rapid changes of the time, especially the perceived onslaught of Western Civilization and colonialism on the Muslim world. [1])
Why have you changed "is" to "was" in Islamic Modernism is a movement ..."? Are you saying there are no more Islamic modernists? -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 20:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
[pasted from BoogaLouie talk page]
What does it mean " (The connection between the "Salafi Movement" of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and modernism is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism. "?
Do you mean to say " The connection between the "Salafi Movement" of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and "Salafism" is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism.?
Did you write Modernism in place of Salafism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejaz92 ( talk • contribs) 13:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
My friend, Ref.4,5&6 is even named as "salafi movement" and shows Md abduh as the founder of the movement. That means the "islamic modernism" and " salafi movement " are same.Founders called it "salafi movement" (even ref:4,5,&6) while other gave it the name "islamic modernism" Ejaz92 ( talk) 06:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Ejaz please do not put this in! You do not have sources saying anyone calls Islamic Modernism the Salafi Movement. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 02:53, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
[pasted from BoogaLouie talk page]
[more pasting]
I accept your solution.Its the same what I opine.
Ejaz92 ( talk) 06:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Islamic modernism, when duscussed in this article, meant a movement led by activists and islamic scholars like Aghani, Abduh and Rida.This movement was/is monolithic in nature.
As " Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani , Abduh, and their later
disciples such as Muhammad Rashid Rida
(d.1354/1935) and, to a lesser extent,
Mohammed al-Ghazali (d. 1410/1989)
espoused some of the key Wahhabi ideals,
particularly the endeavor to “return” to the
Islamic understanding of the first Muslim
generations (as-salaf) by reopening the doors
of juristic deduction ( ijtihad) that they saw as
closed." (from the article).
This trend is inspired by wahhabi movement in some aspect.
That means it has nothing to do with secularists modernists, Naturists etc.
So when naming the islamic modernists we shoud restrict it to the people who espouse(d) the islamic modernism in the same manner as the founder did.
Modernist like Syyed ahmed khan, a supporter of british colony in India(Contrary of abduh and rida), secularists like Farag Fawda, Mahmud Tarzi and many other had a dufferent trend of modernism. They are modernist in a broader sense.They subscribe to the trend called as " islamic midernity" or "islam and modernity"So their names should be placed in the article Islam and modernity not here.
Ejaz92 ( talk) 06:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
" Its most prominent intellectual founder, Muhammad Abduh (d. 1323/1905),..."
There's an uncertainty of 1128 years in the date of his death? Seriously? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 ( talk) 19:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
I noticed that the page describes Rashid Rida as having modernistic leanings in the form of Salafism or Islamism, despite the fact that he took a somewhat different path from his mentor Muhammad Abduh's Mu'tazilite or rationalist beliefs. I wanted to open a discussion about this characterization to add more details in the article contributing to this perception.
While Rashid Rida is often associated with the Salafi movement, which is generally considered conservative, there are aspects of his work and thinking that seem to exhibit modernistic tendencies. For example, he was a proponent of Islamic reform, advocating for a reinterpretation of Islamic texts in light of modern challenges. It's essential to recognize that he may have been influenced by various modernistic ideas circulating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Additionally, Rida's interactions with Western thought and his interest in issues such as constitutionalism and governance reform could have contributed to the perception of modernistic leanings. I think there is a lack of description and sources to support this claim in the article and I can potentially contribute to the section with sources that discuss the issue. The following source is a good place to look into and start the conversation from: Dallal, A. (2000). APPROPRIATING THE PAST: TWENTIETH-CENTURY RECONSTRUCTION OF PRE-MODERN ISLAMIC THOUGHT. Islamic Law and Society, 7(3), 325-358. Rizwan.ul.isl ( talk) 12:30, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 August 2023 and 5 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rizwan.ul.isl ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Rizwan.ul.isl ( talk) 11:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)